Chi Gerk

[WCFighter]

Can anyone tell me if there is a good book on
Chi Gerk techniques out there? So far I haven't really come across one.


Peace.

"Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!" - Dumb and Dumber

[marcelino31]

Ive heard of chi gerk i think its a sham...your not going to do it in a real street fight against anyone...and training sensitivity in the legs...hmmmm that sounds like a funny thing to me...

[whippinghand]

Obviously, YOU'RE not going to use it in a street fight, since you don't have a clue about it.

To be proficient in any martial art, you need to be understand both hands and feet; arms and legs.

Don't speak for others' proficiency.

[Spectre]

GM William Cheung (Understanding that no one person has yet been recognized as the succeeding GM of Yip Man Wing Chun) also states that he has the only TRUE Wing Chun.

Remember that just because something does or does not come out of one's mouth, that does not mean that what is said is truth. It only means that what has come out is an opinion. Those opinions can still be right OR wrong.

One should not dismiss something without having sufficient knowledge and study of that thing.

Kevin
__________________________________________________ _________________

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

[joy chaudhuri]

Marcelino showing his understandable but unquestioning loyalties again says:
"Someone once asked Grandmaster Cheung about using chi gerk. He didn't have much to say about it...And i think he knows way more wing chun then you or anyone else on this forum...."
________________________________________________
Regarding #1 statement- that makes it so?
Regarding #2 statement- how so?

Not everyone is in William Cheung's style and there is no grandmaster for all wing chun folks.
Sorry.

[yenhoi]

M:

You dont "use' chi gerk, just like you dont "use" slt.

chi gerk trains your legs for close combat.

Imagine unleashing the deadly power of your mook jong technique!

gez.

strike!

[joy chaudhuri]

yen hoi sez: strike.
With the mok jong? :D (108 times) or 116? or more?

[yenhoi]

I say strike whenever there is a opening.

thousands of applications. :D

strike!

[Shadowboxer]

I just watched a tape on chi gerk last night. I don't know much about it because I'm not at that level but I did see several applications of chi gerk such as intercepting kicks with dok lop ma, defelecting a kick with tan/bong gerk and immediately kicking the body or support leg, and circling the leg around the opponent's block of your kick to kick the body or support leg. Looked effective to me. Then I watched the drills to build that level of sensivity. Other kicks/applications like lan gerk and jut gerk were covered. Perhaps you could only fully use these techniques on other WC fighters but it's still a skill I would like to have.

[marcelino31]

I assume you have Steve Cottrell's tape? I have that one.

Chi Gerk is something espoused By Leung Ting and his followers.

Its not used in Cheung Style Wing Chun...


"While you are chisaoing with my legs, You'll by getting punched in the face...."

[fa_jing]

That's funny, my old Cheung-style teacher told me that they do practice Chi-gerk. How do you develop sensitivity in your legs? Seems like chi-gerk is an effective training tool, although so far I just practice the basic movements. Maybe GM Cheung just was reluctant to give away the secrets. That's like when I went to the A. Fong seminar, and he barely, barely mentioned kicks the entire 5 hours I was there. They don't always make this kind of information available to the public, it increases its value.
BTW, Grandmaster just means head of your organization. So Chueng is a GM, Leung Ting is a GM, etc.
-FJ

[yenhoi]

I can attest that 'GM' Cheung has a very high level of skill.

Regardless of how high or what path brought him to that level of skill, that doesnt mean every thing that comes out of his mouth is the word of god.

Regarding what you said 'GM' Cheung said, that is a very small quote, that is very vague, and you have yet to show any sort of expansion.

Why would training your legs to have the same level of sensitivity as your arms be un-useful?

When you are fighting a skilled opponent, most likely he has trained his legs and feet as weapons as well as his arms, hands, head, etc.

You are correct - unless you come accross a Wing Chunner with the same skills and applications as you, you will never 'use' chi gerk.

When I fight I use all my weapons. I also like to limit as many of my opponents weapons and tools as I can - this entails letting the legs deal with the legs and the arms deal with the arms.

Attacking someone, literally below the belt - the legs, is a very effective and effecient way of attacking ones center / stance / structure.

strike!

[marcelino31]

Cheung Style Wing Chun does not train in developing leg sensitivity with Chi Gerk. Our kicking skills and leg deflections are trained in the forms and in the wooden dummy. In terms of kicking Cheung Style advocates the use of a round kick which is alien to many wing chun styles which don't use it...many times because a system is lacking in basic fundamentals someone trys to create something new to make it look like they know something when really all they are doing is wasting your time...with bs. As a general rule use your legs to kick and deflect (eg stop kick) anything below the waist and you use your hands above your waist...

[yenhoi]

Kicking, and deflecting kicks are not the only things you do with your legs.

That is a very limited view of combat that includes legs.

Legs support the rest of your body, they enable you to move and generate power.

Unless you suppose you can end any fight with a 3 move combo, then you will eventually need to use your legs for more then just kicking and deflecting, or you will be killed by someone who is not limited by such narrowness.

strike!

[whippinghand]

"Whip, for once we agree on one issue "

You've already written that 10 times, how can it be "for once"?

[EmptyCup]

first time! the other two times was that I thought you made good points but we never jointly agreed on a single issue per se...

[fa_jing]

Marcelino31, since you live in MI, maybe your sifu is Phillip Redmond? If so, I have no idea where your attitude comes from. Check out the thread "Yip Man taught William Cheung real wing chun??" P Redmond has some good posts, that show humility, which you are lacking.
Quote: "while you are chi saoing [sic - sao means hand] with my legs I am punching you in the face"
While you are chi saoing my hands, I am kicking you in the ballz.
What if you lock up your arms with your opponent. Do you wrestle him? Do you fight force with force? No, you kick immediately. The kick is automatic. -FJ

[fa_jing]

According to my Sifu, the round kick is part of Wing Chun, but not part of any of the forms or wooden man. Your statement says:
"Cheung Style Wing Chun does not train in developing leg sensitivity with Chi Gerk. Our kicking skills and leg deflections are trained in the forms and in the wooden dummy. In terms of kicking Cheung Style advocates the use of a round kick which is alien to many wing chun styles which don't use it"

Is this kick in any of the Cheung sytle forms?
If not, how do you train it? We use thai pads to train this kick, but that may be from my Sifu's JKD experience.
P.S. There is a visiting Cheung-style instructor from Brasil that is one of W.C's top students, he is at my Sifu's friend's school. I've seen tape of him sparring (lightly) a Praying Mantis instructor, and he did throw a couple round kicks - to the head, no less. This does seem like a dangerous kick to me, you could get taken down. I usually keep'm low, but there are always exceptions, for surprise I'll throw'm high. Anyway, after seeing my sifu easily dominate the Praying Mantis instructor, Brasilian guy's response: he always wanted to learn JKD. I don't study JKD myself, I just train with pads, jump rope, etc. Hmm, I just had an idea for a new thread... -FJ

[Novox77]

In response to:
"Cheung Style Wing Chun does not train in developing leg sensitivity with Chi Gerk. Our kicking skills and leg deflections are trained in the forms and in the wooden dummy. In terms of kicking Cheung Style advocates the use of a round kick which is alien to many wing chun styles which don't use it...many times because a system is lacking in basic fundamentals someone trys to create something new to make it look like they know something when really all they are doing is wasting your time...with bs. As a general rule use your legs to kick and deflect (eg stop kick) anything below the waist and you use your hands above your waist... "

Likewise, some students are so blind in the belief of the instruction they receive, they don't question it's validity. How do you train leg sensitivity by just forms and wooden dummy? If that were the case, wing chun wouldn't need chi sao for arm sensitivity. All we need is forms and dummy. Get real. If you want to train contact reflexes and sensitivity, you need a live partner. This is what makes wing chun so unique; you can't get the true benifit of the style from books, pictures, or videos because the foundation is based totally on "feeling."

Oh, and as a general rule: hit your enemy without being hit yourself.

[EmptyCup]

why was what I wrote censored? It was all true and a reply to previous posts. I did not personally attack the poster by calling him names but used valid arguments to make my point.

Many also posted similar messages yet why have mine been deleted moderator? Outside of the wing chun board, content is only moderated when needed as in when there is foul language or such, not when posters post their opinions. It seems like lately, any opinion that might be controversial is deleted. That is not free speech. That is a dictatorship! My opinions were not ungrounded considering the content of the original posts. I was merely providing my angle. Just because I happen to disagree shouldn't mean censorship...

[EmptyCup]

ah...I noticed that some of the other messages of other members was also deleted. That is a shame since this forum deals with issues regarding wing chun and the topic discussed is a main part of wing chun today. It gets brought up in kwoons, in magazines, in discussions such as these ones. We are all consenting adults here. Since you always say that this is 'our forum' shouldn't we have a right to talk about issues that concern us if we want to, as long as we abide by the rules? Could you imagine a world where you couldn't bring up certain topics in conversation because they are too controversial and opinions are too varied? No abortion, religion, politics, heck, even sports discussions!!! Where North America turns into China or the Middle East. This is what is happening here. We are being systematically silenced. The William Cheung issue is a valid one and concerns all Wing Chun practioners. There's no reason why it can't be discussed...a little bit heated is ok...in the real world adults don't always remain unanimated when talking about their passions...this board should be no different.

[Sihing73]

Hello Empty Cup,

Why not discuss the subject at hand which is I belive Chi Gerk? Or is that less important to you than what an individual person thinks?

Discuss the art not the artist, what a radical idea :rolleyes:

Peace,

Dave

[anerlich]

Marcelino,

Your loyalty to the head of your substyle is admirable, but its uncritical nature and your one-eyed infatuation are becoming tedious.

I am a student of Rick Spain, and attained my tenth/instructor level while we were still in the WWCKFA. i.e. aligned with William Cheung.

At that time, chi gerk was not included in the grading syllabus, though it was occasionally reviewed in class. Since we have left the WWCKFA and I and my sihings and sidais have continued to progress, we have done a little more chi gerk. We probably do not practise it near as much as styles which use a primarily rear leg weighting such as WT (no offense meant, just that TWC and WT are different). This may be to our compartive detriment, who's to say?

To say that it is a waste of time developing sensitivity and the ability to deflect leg attacks and launch return fire is ridiculous.

Forms and the dummy cannot teach you these attributes as you are not exposed to incoming force from another person, much the same as you need a partner to develop sensitivity using chi sao.

It is even more ridiculous to say that a particular drill is a waste of time based on a passing comment someone attributed to William Cheung. For chrissake, Marcelino, take your lips away from his a$$ and think for yourself a little.

Since we incorporated BJJ into our syllabus the usefulness of the attributes developed by chi gerk have become a lot more apparent.

"While you're trying to punch me in the face, I'll be snapping your knee. After that you won't even be able to run away."

[Novox77]

You probably didn't get a chance to read my post earlier in response to marcelino, but it is uncanny how our comments parallel each other.

You also bring up an interesting point regarding weight distribution. Performing chi-gerk would require you to distribute your weight 100%/0%, and most lineages of wing chun have some weight on both legs. The logic behind the 100/0 distribution is that your front leg is always at disposal as a weapon. If there was weight on the front leg, you could not kick with it unless you shifted the weight off of it. Also, you are not susceptible to front leg sweeps, since it carries no weight that supports the body upright. The disadvantage of a 100/0 distribution is that the stance is weaker.

However... that's where the chi-gerk comes in. Sure, if you allow someone to shove you or kick you, while you're balanced on your rear leg, you'll probably topple. But like your chi sao training, which would train you to deflect a shove so that you wouldn't have to take the force of that shove, you learn chi-gerk to deflect the force of a kick that could potentially topple you over. Same thing applies for leg sweeps. There are many ways an opponent could attack your lower extremities with their lower extremities, so I see chi-gerk to be VERY invaluable to the wing chun practitioner.

I think that the advanced footwork comes in the later stages of wing chun curriculum because the stance and basic advancing footwork has to be very solid before attempting things like chain kicks, which is part of wooden dummy form. You can probably learn ALL the techniques in wing chun within a year or two, but to be able to apply them is another matter. That takes years of training. It is likely that good instructors held off on the very advanced techniques until the students mastered the fundamentals. And for those students who became impatient or never mastered the fundamentals, they were never shown the advanced techniques, such as chi-gerk.

[whippinghand]

You agreed with me... You just didn't admit it.

Twice... ten times.... what's the difference?

[EmptyCup]

If you say so :p

[joy chaudhuri]

Chi gerk is a regular part of our wing chun curriculum and always has been and we are neither TWC or WT. But novices cant do very good chi gerk until they have learned to be properly rooted and learn controlling their hands. Wing chun is not TKD- you learn stancing and then fundamental hands-then you can lift legs.. Just as chi sao is not the same as fighting, chi gerk is not fighting either. When one learns proper rooting
then controlling the hands and chi gerk-ing with the legs and the timing and transitions teaches you the coordination of bong gerk. tan gerk and fok gerk and its variations FWIW.

[WCFighter]

Thanks for your replies, everyone.

But my question remains unanswered...

Is there a book or video on Chi Gerk that is worth getting ?!

"Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!" - Dumb and Dumber

[marcelino31]

The AbMan

First of all the system i train in is not a "substyle". Perhaps that is what you call your
system a "substyle". You are a student of Rick Spain, so what. Who did Rick Spain learn wc from?
Grandmaster Cheung Right? It seems there is no longer any respect here for seniority. Grandmaster
Cheung has more seniority than Rick Spain and has been doing Wing Chun a lot longer than you and Rick Spain combined. The fact that you talk down on TWC makes you a hypocrite and a thief. You practice a system that is based on TWC but you don't aknowledge who gave you that knowledge. Instead you steal other peoples ideas and try to make them your own.

Don't be so sure of yourself AbMan you may have had an instructor level in the WWCKFA but
you are no longer with the organization. Funny though you still practice the 50-50 leg
weight distribution.

You and your instructor have made up their own organization for their own purposes.
Still i would rather learn my wing chun from the source -- ie the one with the most seniority
which is Grandmaster Cheung..YOu seem to forget that.


"Funny quote mr Abman, i highly doubt a real wing chun man goes for the knee for someone trying to strike him in the face. Sounds more like a BJJ thing ..why don't you just say you do BJJ
instead with a bit of wing chun thrown in ?"

Ps you would never be able to snap my knee, anyway mr AbMan.

[S.Teebas]

Try not taking things so personally marcelino31. Abman is disusisng the merits of chi-gerk, this is just an internet forum!

[yenhoi]

lol @ marcelino.

Original poster:

Try books by Dr. Joseph Wayne Smith

They arent the best books on Wing Chun, but they are the only ones I have read that address chi gerk.

strike!

[jameswebsteruk]

Here's my opinion, for what its worth.

If you have good lut sao jit chung, you dont have to worry about the opponents legs at close range, if he lifts his leg, then your pry sends him flying. Also works against knees.

If you are at chisao distance, and your opponent can kick you, then you are probably too far away to start with, IMO.

At kicking distance, its a whole different ball game, however, Id be less concerned with trying to chigerk his legs, and more concerned with bypassing the legs and getting in close as soon as possible. Sure, that may mean a stop kick, or a kwan and kick against a roundhouse, but Id prefer using footwork to avoid the legs, and get into hitting distance, on the premise that you are more stable with both legs on the ground.

As WSL said, fight the person, not his arms. I guess that holds true for legs as well ;)

[Insert obligatory "Your mileage may vary" here...]

The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[yenhoi]

You dont 'chi-sao' with somebody during a fight, nor do you 'chi-gerk' them either.

chi sau trains sensativity in the arms, and chi gerk the legs - they are not techniques or combat strategys (possibly considered a strategy of mobility - manuver around your opponents limbs to hit his centerline - when there is a opening, strike, on loss of contact, strike!)

Of course your going to use footwork to avoide being hit by the opponent - but when he punches at me I will intercept and stick and strike, and when he kicks I will intercept and stick and strike.

When the opponent offers you a arm or leg by throwing it at you, grab it and defeat him.

strike!

[chi-kwai]

"If you are at chisao distance, and your opponent can kick you, then you are probably too far away to start with, IMO."

in my humble opinion, one should be able to kick an opponent well within punching range.

--
chi kwai

[fa_jing]

Anyone know the names of the three (four?) actions in chi gerk, in chinese?
Is it bon-gerk, tan-gerk, and fuk-gerk??

[hunt1]

Other WC styles dont use a round kick.How many other WC styles have you studied.In WC a step is a kick and a kick is a step.Can you think of any circular stepping motions or maybe triangular.(hint)

On the chi gerk subject perhaps there is some confusion between training and usage.Yip Ching for example doesnt believe in chi gerk combined with chi sao for the simple reason that if arms are in contact kicks are easily disrupted so leg vs. leg should never occur.However in fighting you must be able to use leg vs.leg.What range to use what is important.Also I think using your stance to tie up or disrupt the opponents stance also falls under chi gerk but others may not see it this way.

[joy chaudhuri]

Re Smith's books- dem IMO are the worst in wing chun. :(

[anerlich]

Thank you S.Teebas for your supporting comments re Marcelino's interesting last post.

Ok, Marcie:

First of all the system i train in is not a "substyle".

Matter of definition. TWC is seen by most as being one branch of Wing Chun, or what I call a sub-style.

You are a student of Rick Spain, so what. Who did Rick Spain learn wc from? Grandmaster Cheung Right? It seems there is no longer any respect here for seniority.

Hey, boy, I didn't knock William Cheung. I had words to say about your dog-like devotion to everything he says.

The fact that you talk down on TWC makes you a hypocrite and a thief. You practice a system that is based on TWC but you don't aknowledge who gave you that knowledge. Instead you steal other peoples ideas and try to make them your own.

Since when did I deny my lineage and the debt my instructor and I owe to William Cheung? My teacher never did this, neither did I.

Don't be so sure of yourself AbMan you may have had an instructor level in the WWCKFA but
you are no longer with the organization.

What are you implying? That because I left the organisation that what I learned magically disappeared and thus my skills somehow became useless?

Funny though you still practice the 50-50 leg
weight distribution.

And why not? William Cheung didn't invent this, nor did he patent it. Jack Dempsey was using 50/50 weighting before William Cheung was a twinkle in his father's eye.

You and your instructor have made up their own organization for their own purposes.

We left the organisation after a William Cheung dummy spit during a seminar in front of about 50 witnesses. My Sifu had the choice of either losing all his honour and credibility or leaving the WWCKFA. I was there, you weren't.

Still i would rather learn my wing chun from the source -- ie the one with the most seniority
which is Grandmaster Cheung.

It's a free world. Do what you want. I'm loyal to the instructor I started with, not someone I used to see for two hours at a seminar every six to twelve months.

YOu seem to forget that.

Since when?

"Funny quote mr Abman, i highly doubt a real wing chun man goes for the knee for someone trying to strike him in the face.,

Mate, you put up a stupid quote, I just turned it around.

Sounds more like a BJJ thing ..why don't you just say you do BJJ instead with a bit of wing chun thrown in ?"

Because it's more like Wing Chun with a bit of BJJ thrown in.

Ps you would never be able to snap my knee, anyway mr AbMan.

Not over the internet, certainly.

Mate, you sound like an eleven year old with an IQ in the low double figures. I wasn't dissing William Cheung, I was disagreeing with your assertions regarding Chi Gerk and its place in TWC, matters in which my experience varies from yours, which appears to be largely second hand.

If you want throw a hissy fit and take your bat and ball and go home, don't let me stop you.

[EmptyCup]

excellent reply abman...

[jameswebsteruk]

>> You dont 'chi-sao' with somebody during a fight, nor do you 'chi-gerk' them either. <<

I am aware of this, which is why I actually said "When you are at chi-sao distance", not "when you are chisao-ing". ;)

But, you can chisao in many ways. I know that some schools teach it as purely a sensitivity exercise, for them sparring is a seperate thing.
For us, chisao can go from this level all the way up to full contact sparring.

And the rest of your post was pretty much what I was saying, hence the final WSL quote, concentrate on hitting, not chasing the arms or legs.

The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[This message was edited by Frank Exchange on 11-02-01 at 04:07 AM.]

[jameswebsteruk]

>> In my humble opinion, one should be able to kick an opponent well within punching range. <<

Possibly, but if the opponnent has good lut sao jit chung, or just barrels into you at the first sign of you lifting your leg, it is likely you will go flying.

Lower kicks to shin, and knees MIGHT work, but any higher would be a no-no IMO.

Of course, this does depend on what we mean by chi-sao and punching range, doesnt it? I would submit that chi-sao distance is closer than maximum punching range. Perhaps this is where we differ. :)

The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[anerlich]

Thank you, Empty Cup.

[anerlich]

Ian Protheroe's book, entitled "Wing Chun: Theory and Composition" (I think) has a small chapter on Chi Gerk. It's not a bad TWC reference, got at least a brief treatment of just about everything in the system, with lots of photos and drawings.

Ian P was a William Cheung student, too. Of course, he betrayed the master, just like my sifu and me (you paying attention,Marcelino?). ;)

[WCFighter]

You wrote:

"We left the organisation after a William Cheung dummy spit during a seminar in front of about 50 witnesses. My Sifu had the choice of either losing all his honour and credibility or leaving the WWCKFA. I was there, you weren't."


What happened exactly? I am really curious.
I never heard the reason why Sifu Rick Spain left
the WWCKFA.

"Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!" - Dumb and Dumber

[marcelino31]

Your loyalty to the head of your substyle is admirable, but its uncritical nature and your one-eyed infatuation are becoming tedious.

Seems like that bothers you i wonder why?
Maybe you should try licking your wounds...they may heal faster.Tedious? LOL ok you one eyed bird brain....

Try not taking things so personally marcelino31. Abman is disusisng the merits of chi-gerk, this is just an internet forum!

ABMAN is not discussing chi gerk he has a vendetta against anyone supporting Grandmaster Cheung.


Ok ABBIE:

Matter of definition. TWC is seen by most as being one branch of Wing Chun, or what I call a sub-style. True, therefore you must admit that what you practice is a sub-sub style or a derivative of a sub-style.

Hey, boy, I didn't knock William Cheung. I had words to say about your dog-like devotion to everything he says.

First of all why not day dingo? Your an AbMan an Australian,eh mate? so Mr Ding Dong if the words bother you so much put on some air muffs? But oh this is the internet so i guess you can't here anything dingo.

Not over the internet, certainly.
Mr Ding Dong Dingo Abman don't assume anything your coming across like a mr ding dong know it all. Personally dogs are quite intelligent so i ain't surprised you are as well.I would judge their IQ are in the lower double digits. But then again you seem to smart for that. The system you practice is patterned after the crane snake and fox...i will assign to you the distinctive title of MR BIRD BRAIN ABMAN know it all...

peace!

[anerlich]

WCFighter:

What happened exactly? I am really curious.
I never heard the reason why Sifu Rick Spain left
the WWCKFA.


I don't think it is appropriate to discuss this on a public forum. Email me if you wish.

That Marcelino's a funny guy, huh? :rolleyes:

[Chum Kil]

Abman,

What's your e-mail address. I would also like to know the story.

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[anerlich]

My email address is in my profile, just take out the _NO_SPAM.