Feeling doubt+no trust-Relationships with teacher, and the business aspect of kungfu

[mossman]

This is kind of hard for me to put, so I'm going to do my best. I searched and search for the best kungfu school near me, and I found it. I wanted the best kungfu available and now I have it...

I havent built a relationship with my sifu like I would like...It's hard for me to trust him...and I have doubt about so many things...money money money...I want to support my sifu, but I just don't know where my money is going. My kungfu school is a big family...some call it a cult...I'm beginning to believe those that called it a cult...I'm really not sure what to do in my situation. I was planning on going to class tonight and giving my sifu $50...but I just couldn't do it

Has anyone ever been in my situation? I'm kinda stuck as to what to do. If someone would like to discuss this with my over AIM, it would greatly be appreciated. Thanks

[Jhapa]

why do you need to give your sifu money for. you are already paying for his services, which is to teach you kung fu. if your teacher doesn't know how to manage his business, than that's on him. i wouldn't give him any money.

of course i haven't been in that situation where my teacher asked for money, but if he did, i wouldn't.

where is your school located, it's not shaolin do, is it :D

[mossman]

i payed for a year of kungfu, but you must pay more to be a "special student" because the special students learn more kungfu and they pass the art on, and learn it in whole...and are taught things the regular students are not...blah blah blah...(nobody ever said this, but i know its true) My sifu manages his money the way his sifu says so. My sigung runs things. i'd rather not say the location or school

[WanderingMonk]

where is your school located, it's not shaolin do, is it :D

I think his style is WC..

anyways, do not get into a relationship in which you are exploited. remember equivalent exchange.

You are in an instructor student relationship. within that framework, paying more than your regular school due is excessive.

[mossman]

My school...is more like a family though, and if you want all the kungfu, you basically have to join the family...

Every once in a while I ask my parents for advice...I tell them about some of things that happen at the school and some of the things that I do, monetary wise... and they say I'm crazy, they say that my teacher is taking advantage of me, they are very doubtful and I guess it has rubbed off on me...I thought my parents just didnt understand...but now its really rubbing me.

[Fu-Pow]

My school...is more like a family though, and if you want all the kungfu, you basically have to join the family...

Every once in a while I ask my parents for advice...I tell them about some of things that happen at the school and some of the things that I do, monetary wise... and they say I'm crazy, they say that my teacher is taking advantage of me, they are very doubtful and I guess it has rubbed off on me...I thought my parents just didnt understand...but now its really rubbing me.

Trust your gut. Get out of there before you lose more money.....

Not always but in many kung fu schools if you are an "inner door" disciple your fees actually go down because you often are help teach the newer students.

There's no way in hell that your fees should go up!

GET OUT NOW!!!!

[norther practitioner]

sounds like it sucks to me.. you should be learning... well, maybe not everything, but lets just say things shouldn't be withheld.

[Royal Dragon]

Tell us the school, it may be a known fraud already

[David Jamieson]

This can be a cultural thing.

If this is Chinese folks running the school that aren't americanized, then, well, that is how it goes. It's a bit hard to understand when we come from a society that is all about individualism and what not, but in heavy duty filial systems, like those of south east asia, India and other social structure in a larger sense, this is not all that uncommon.

However, if this guy is as american as you, offers you a few hours a week and then you go home, then I have to agree with Fu Pow. Get out now while teh getting is good or you will constantly be in that cycle of feeling bad when there is nothing to feel bad about. You will be psychologically dominated which is just a form of control. You don't want to be in that situation.

Mind you, it teaches you something about yourself provided you don't stay trapped in the cycle.

Sounds like it's an old way. Many old ways no longer fit with the reality of the times. Traditionalist hang on to these ideas in a lot of senses because they are not comfortable with change and they are not comfortable with not being in control of others which they transpose as a way of seeing themselves as being in control of themselves.

Some may argue with that, and that's fine, argue away, lol, been there, done that and had enough of it. Took a while to get that crap out of me and start making some real progress though.

Not all Kungfu teachers are like this, but some are and it's hard to know what to avoid, and I understand that. It is also important that you don't go all loosey goosy with yourself before you get some understanding. Sometimes the structure works thusly for your benefit and to allow you to grow into a sense of self. You know. tear you down, build you back up new. It's a typical militaristic approach to forming a mind, it is also a form of reeducation. There's a few different ways to look at it. If you have no true convictions now, maybe this way of tasting bitter will help you get some in your not so distant future.

food for thought, yin and yang in everything.
good luck!

[Shaolinlueb]

man i havent paid for kung fu lessons in 2 years. yet me and my sifu go out. we buy each other driunks. and such. i pay for soem supplies for the school, but he always re emburresses me. sounds like a cult if teachers ask for more money.

[red5angel]

you should be required to only pay your fees for attending class. Anything else and you may be taken for a fool.

[PaiLumDreamer]

My teacher has never just asked me for money...

I pay for kung fu lessons.

I offer to pay for him when he goes out (at least, I try to.), and he always declines. Actually, he pays for me more often than not.

Also, becoming an "inner circle" student ususally doesnt involve paying more...thats usually an honor that the sifu would place on you. IE: He takes special interest. Not to milk you for money...

Sounds a little fishy to me. Then again...if you really like the kung fu, learn the kung fu. You dont -have- to have a strong relationship with your sifu. Unless you really want the student-teacher relationship...everyone has their goals :P

[mossman]

They arn't chinese but they value the chinese ediquette and culture of the grandmaster of the style. I payed for a year of kungfu. I don't mind paying for a couple $75 seminars, I've been to 2 so far and I definatly feel like i got my moneys worth...its other stuff...

Oh, we're taking a collection for so and so...hes part of the family, you should put in $5 or 10 bucks

Sigungs birthday is comming up, slip him a $50

we will give you a key to the school!!! more $$$

yes "special students" or "inner door" students must pay more money, ontop of their regular tuition

I feel like Iif I join this "family" or "cult" or whatever that I'm going to get sucked in. I know I shouldn't be thinking this but, I'm probably the wealthiest student in class, and I'm still in college and living off my parents! The stuff my sifu tells me, I retell to my parents, they say its garbage, and it sounds like brainwashing...

[David Jamieson]

Ok, I've read enough. How about you guys?

I would leave under those circumstances. It seems transparent to me, although it may not to you because you are wrapped in it right now. Kinda like how we can't smell our own butt sweat at times but that doesn't stop it from making rodents fall off the sh.it wagon from 50 paces if you know what I mean.

Don't make any excuses, just pack up and head out. there's other teachers out there who won't be pressing you for a buck at every opportunity as you seem to be with this outfit.

THis has nothing to do with etiquette and asking for money all the time has nothing to do with etiquette. offering to pay for yum cha is one thing, painting the school is ok and maybe even doing a few chores for your sifu now and then is even kind of expected in a teacher/student thing.

But sounds more like you are being treated as a sheep to be fleeced.

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out either. run don't walk and all that.

[anerlich]

My school...is more like a family though, and if you want all the kungfu, you basically have to join the family...

I've been in a similar situation, though in my case it was more about sucking up to the instructor and being truer to him rather than your family, friends and SO , instead of cash. Bad scene.

Whenever I see "Kung-Fu Family", I usually think, "Manson family". You already have parents, Why TF do you need another family?

I'd rather teachers were honest about their motivations for money. That way everyone knows where they stand and nothing has to become personal. I don't mind paying if the price is right, otherwise I won't bother.

[Ray Pina]

There is no doubt that there are indoor students (closed door), disciple, senior students and then regular students.

But tuition is tutition. That should allow you to attend whatever number of classes was agreed upon upfront.

Now, if he'll except you, then you should pay extra (I'd say at least $5,000) to become a disciple ... that's for likfe. Now, if that seems like too much, maybe what you're learning isn't valuable to you.

Also, if there's a special seminar above and beyond the regular class, that seems fair to pay extra for.

I'd feel wierd though if every time I saw my teacher he asked for money, unless of coarse I was paying on a per lesson basis.

When I think about how little I pay my teacher overall its embarrassing. I need to get a better job. Anyone in NYC hiring? I have good communications skills and am developing a nice uppercut.

[David Jamieson]

5k to be a disciple? That is whack!

You can't "buy" kungfu and those who ask money for it, don't have it to give.

In my opinion, but then, I guess you have your own idea of what's what and your entitled to it. I'll keep my 5k though. LOL

P.T Barnum was absolutely right though. :p

[Vash]

Now, if he'll except you, then you should pay extra (I'd say at least $5,000) to become a disciple ... that's for likfe. Now, if that seems like too much, maybe what you're learning isn't valuable to you.

I hope that's sarcasm.

If it ain't, I've got a very nice, fully-stocked brothel to sell you.

[mossman]

No the disciple that he said is true. My school has it, except it's $3000 instead of 5

[David Jamieson]

dude, bolt, bolt now and don't look back.

that truly is whack, out of order and you are being played for an idiot.

[mossman]

A lot of this stuff I think is just in my head though. I might have some psychological problems lol. But, I've been talking to one of my sigung's classmates and he said that he can't help me, and that my sigung does thinks quite different from his classmates. A lot of this is all in my head, I just thought that my sifu and classmates would think poorly about me, if i dont give money when the basket comes around, I just want them to like me for me and not for my wallet.

[Waidan]

This thread stinks of scientology. Seek help.

[David Jamieson]

as long as you stay there is as long as you will subject yourself to the mind fuk you are receiving.

when you finally get sick of it, you'll realize you have wasted years of your life on this nonsense.

No one has any secret stuff to bestow upon you and anyone who says they do is full of sh.it.

Kungfu is hard work and good instruction is abundant and there are actually plenty of people who will help you to get to the point where you can make your kungfu a functional and worthwhile part of your life.

There seems to be just as many people who regard those like you as sheep waiting to be fleeced as I have said.

YOu came on and asked your question, now you are feeling guilty and blaming yourself.

fine, do what you want, don't say we didn't tell you so when you look back on this 5 years from now. You're only fooling yourself and you're only lying to yourself.
Take ownership of your life dang it. It's too valuable a thing to let someone else run it for you.

[JadeMantis]

Listen to your parents and the experience of the people on this forum. You ARE being taken for a ride. We all pay the same at our school whether your begineer or advanced student. IMO Kung Fu is silmiliar to religion - a way of life and should be available to all if you are willing to put in the time. Our Sifu teaches us because of the love he has for the art and not for any monetary gain.

This sounds like a money making scam or a cult, that sounds more like it.

Look for another school thats not going to rip you off.

[PangQuan]

Unless you are completely over exaggerating the circumstances (dont let yourself be led to believe you are over exaggerating when you are not.) then you are being totaly taken advantage of. Much like other people here, the school I attend is based on a tuition, those students that take on more responsiblity, such as, cleaning, teaching, opening, book keeping, get a little financial help from our Sifu, as in a little cash here a little cash there, dinner here dinner there. From what I have noticed anyhow. This seems very reasonable to me. The more you do for someone the less they should ask of you. I kind of understand how someone may ask for more cash to become a "inner door" student, but I think this is wrong. They should except you based on your devotion to your style, and the level of your skill. This is the method of the kung fu family.

I suggest, that if you value your parents as strong role models and intelligent people, heed their advice.

Often times the most glittering and sparkeling gem is not the most valuable. Make sure and not to judge a school based on the building and equipment. It is the teacher that makes it a decent environment. If your teacher is actually taking unfair advantage of his students, then this is most certainly not the best kung fu in your area. Find a GOOD man to teach you your fighting skills.

This is the best advice I can offer on your situation. I hope this helps you. Good luck.

[Pork Chop]

trust yer gut

if the situation makes you uncomfortable then there's probably a reason.

now maybe some big name masters will hit you up for money; but most of the best guys i've ever seen only charge if they need help paying rent for the school building (and even then, you can tell they're still pretty reluctant).

it ain't about how much money you spend, it's about the skill.

Where you live?
Someone here may know some good options.

[Ray Pina]

5k to be a disciple? That is whack!

You can't "buy" kungfu and those who ask money for it, don't have it to give.

In my opinion, but then, I guess you have your own idea of what's what and your entitled to it. I'll keep my 5k though. LOL

P.T Barnum was absolutely right though. :p

My master has turned down people offering $20,000 .... it's all about the money.

But he flew grand master Wong in from China back and forth, and while his visa allowed it hosted him in NYC putting him up in fancy hotels .... how much do you think that cost? That's only one teacher. This is a man who learned from teachers from 5 to 55.

So is $5,000 too much?

Well, right now its not in my budget, though I'd never ask to be a disciple, in my heart that seems like something the teacher should bring up. But $5,000, to get my master's treasure, that's nothing.

Not like I'm not getting the train now anyway. My master knows I fight and he arms me. But there are certain things that I'm sure I'm not ready to learn and honestly, he's only known me three years. You have to be careful who you give the gun to.

I'm hoping to have some life changes, and I hope I can give my master more than $5,000 .... this man has changed my life. I want to hand him some hi-fighting titles, I want to promote his style. I want E-Chuan to be recognized.

How much to serious golfers spend on clubs? I just bought a $700 surfboard for Puerto Rico (going on Wed.) which can snap just like that. This is not a hobby, this is my life. $5,000 .... actually, it's quite insulting already.

[Fu-Pow]

Tell us the name of the school and we'll have a much easier time knowing what kind of monster we're dealing with here.

Is it Shaolin-Do, Temple Kung Fu, Oom Yung Doe/Chung Moo Doe?

These are all organizations that are known to have *ahem* questionable aspects to them.

[scotty1]

Bmore Banga has good advice.

If you're feeling uncomfortable, leave. It's that simple.

You don't have to train somewhere that makes you feel like that.

Plenty more fish in the sea.

Tuition doesn't have to be free, in fact it could be fairly expensive, but if you consider what you're getting to be good value then it doesn't matter.

I might have to pay more than I might for a normal class if I want to get a neigung set, but I consider it to be worth it, as I've seen the results in my seniors and my instructor and I want it. But the situation you describe is nowhere near that.

Listen to the advice of the forum, that's why you asked - that says a lot in itself.

[Jhapa]

the fact is that your teacher or any teacher should not under any circumstances ask his students any money except for tuition.

what do you get out of being a disciple.

[Becca]

5k to be a disciple? That is whack!

You can't "buy" kungfu and those who ask money for it, don't have it to give.

In my opinion, but then, I guess you have your own idea of what's what and your entitled to it. I'll keep my 5k though. LOL

P.T Barnum was absolutely right though. :p
My school has what they call the "wosu program" which you must first be invited to join and then must pay 6k for. But you aren't paying for the privlage of being a disciple; you are paying for special classes that are only taught by Sifu Galiano. These classes are required to be a sifu. You can be a black belt without being a wosu, but can't go any higher than second degree without taking these classes. BTW, once beginning this program, you don't pay for regualr classes any more, as you are helping to teach, unless you choose to drop out and return to regular classes.

I have also been asked for money, but I always know what it is for. This week-end my school is holding a benefit for Muscular Dystrophy. In exchange of a $10 donation, we get a mini seminar which is open-door. (most of our seminars are active Pai Lum Colorado only.) I have been asked to buy things like liniment with all prosedes going to help financially troubled class mates attend summer camp. Only once was I asked to donate money without giving something back, and that was for a class mate who's knee was distroyed in a sparring match. But he was unable to work and had a family to support; he needed the money immidiatly for food and rent; sifu didn't have time to set up anything special to raise the money. The people who help in this way or help by buying things for the kwoon, or help when we spring clean, ect... get payed back in other ways. We had money left over from our summer camp fund last year, so sifu used the surplus to buy them all a rattan bo staff.

Maybe I am being a sucker by your standards, maybe not. But I definantly feel my kwoon is a family. If I need a baby sitter, I know I have several people I can ask. If my car breaks down and I can't get ahole of my dad, I can call the kwoon and someone will be there. I am expected to do the same for my kung fu brothers and sisters.

In a world filled with increasingly dishonest or self-centered people, I like knowing I am a part of something that is a bit "old fashioned". :rolleyes:

[shen ku]

first let me say that i do shaolin-do, i am an instructor, and i try to be good to my students on all fees, equipment or extra classes , YES i charge for what i do , i have a family to feed,
BUT to your problem here if you feel like you don't get what you pay for? if you are always being asked for extra money ( ask why, if you don't feel like it is something you should do DON'T )? and if you feel that your money is getting them to be your friends and family?
then do like forest and "RUN FOREST, RUN!!!!!!!!!!!"
you don't need people like that in your life