Differences in the forms between lineages

[Grond]

This question is for Sifu Phil Redmond:

I was on your website http://wingchunkwoon.com/ and noticed that the videos you have of the forms look quite different from the the way I've been taught them. In particular, there's less shifting(none, maybe?), and much more footwork/stepping movements. Is this characteristic of the William Cheung method of ving tsun? Do you guys do this to emphasize mobility?

[Grond]

Anyone else want to field this?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I do not know if I would be of any help as your question seems to focus on the TWC method. I am affiliated with Sifu Chung Kwok Chow of NYC and his forms have progressed over the years. In addition I also trained in WT several years ago, I left that org around 1991 and I was also trained back in 82 by a student of Augustine Fong in Seattle. Each system provided some differences but the essence followed similar ideas. With the exception of Sifu Chow reversing the Wu and Fook Sau in the first form.

PM me if you wish to discuss this in more detail or open this thread up to other lineages.

Peace,

Dave

BTW: Are you of the TWC line?? If not what lineage do you draw your art from?

[Vajramusti]

Dave- I think it's an offshoot of Moy yat's teaching.
An inference from the profile and location.

His question is not specific enogh for me. A general answer--- mobility is very important without being sloppy.

[anerlich]

I've been training in TWC since 1989.

If by "shifting" you mean pivoting or sliding the feet as opposed to taking steps, then you are correct - TWC just about always steps, lifting the feet when moving. One rationale is that this requires you to be less dependent on the quality of the surface you are on and your footwear. There are arguments for and against this rationale.

Other lineages have different philosophies and methods - and every one has advantages and tradeoffs. That the style has a coherent and logical set of methods that work as a whole is less important than the actual details. Also different styles suit different people.

[russellsherry]

hi kung fu fighter, i startd training in a modified wsl way back in 1976, i was first taught sil lin toa tan sau relaxed , and flat coming from the centerline ete,
than after i left that sifu trained at williams for a little bit , williams school"S use the raised tan becuase william belive"S that chines are in genral shorter people so your block should be at the pont of contact, sifu phil and victor willl correct me if i am wrong. than my sifu randy teaches yet another way and as he say's it not what it is wrong or right it what work for you , yip taught in different stage"s and as a young man he used power as a older person he used footwork remember it is
not the postion of the block that 's impotant it is when the blow come's in and you bloack that punch that's the important , thing don't get cuaght up in being to complex in fighting keep it simple russellsherry

[sihing]

To the contrary, I believe the details are important, and in the end do make a difference. Shifting vs. Stepping, I do believe one is better than the other, but just because I believe that doesn't mean I can or won't use either. In general, stepping is more effective for any and all persons (not just a few), because it allows you better positioning in the end, regardless of surface or shoe worn. When shifting or dragging the feet it is IMO harder to move adequately in regards to speed of movement and distance of movement to allow one to be in the right space at the right time, all the while getting out of the way of your opponents tools and striking him. What's easier or more effective, stepping 1' foot out of the way to the side or sliding/dragging the foot 1' to the side out of the way? Why would I side step? The essentials of this concept are, it is better to not be there to accept your opponents weapons so therefore upon initiation of his movement you side step to evade and defend it, regardless of what the attack is, while getting out of reach of his secondary weapons/tools (e.g. so when the opponent throws a lead right hook punch toward my left upper gate, I step in towards it using a variety of hand tech, Tan/Bong/Bil/Lop etc., this side step puts me temporarily out of range of his combo attack or live side). When side stepping you are out of his reach but still in your range of attacking his body and or head, so in essence this is a safe place for you to be and a dangerous place for us to be in regards to our opponents chances of success in the encounter.

In the WC I practice, "Ideally" the hips do not move independently, it stays in line with whatever direction the feet and knees are pointing. Take note I said Ideally, as it is not always possible when in combat, but is the ideal. The reason for this is when facing the opponent, using two hands at the same time to attack or defend, you need to be square with him up to a point, without giving away your whole body for his attack. You also have better balance in attack, retreat or whatever you have to do when your hips are inline with the lower body.


James

[Vajramusti]

anerlich sez:
Other lineages have different philosophies and methods - and every one has advantages and tradeoffs.
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sihing sez:Shifting vs. Stepping, I do believe one is better than the other, but just because I believe that doesn't mean I can or won't use either. In general, stepping is more effective for any and all persons (not just a few), because it allows you better positioning in the end, regardless of surface or shoe worn.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont do TWC but Anerlich's characterization is broader and more inclusive.

There is a difference between developmental training and application-but it is pointless to make a lengthy brief on this thread.

[Phil Redmond]

This question is for Sifu Phil Redmond:

I was on your website http://wingchunkwoon.com/ and noticed that the videos you have of the forms look quite different from the the way I've been taught them. In particular, there's less shifting(none, maybe?), and much more footwork/stepping movements. Is this characteristic of the William Cheung method of ving tsun? Do you guys do this to emphasize mobility?
The forms are different from most 'mainstream' Yip Man WC. I know because I studied other Yip Man lineages for 13 years and even taught a different WC before I met Sifu Cheung in 1983. We don't shift because the surface you're on might not allow it. You may have to fight on an uneven surface like in a field, a rocky surface, or even on a plush carpet. And yes, we emphasize mobility as does most WC. The things that most comment on is our tan sau which covers the upper gate, the fuhk sau which has the path going away from the center, and the bong sau with the wrist straight. If you have any more queries please feel free to ask.
PR

[Grond]

Thanks Sifu Phil. Thanks to all of ya'll as well...

Sihing73, as Vajramusti surmised I'm from si-tai-gung Moy Yat's lineage. Is that a specific enough statement? :)

[old jong]

More than only Chor Ma and Tor Ma there are other ways to move in "non TWC Wing Chun"!...
*my line's footwork also includes:
- Sheung ma (biu Ma)...a step!
-Toi ma
-Forward and backward bracing (combinations front and back steps with shifting)
-inside and outside facing steps (combnations side steps with shifting)
-Juen Ma (180 degree turn)
-Crab stepping

All of this =mobility

[couch]

More than only Chor Ma and Tor Ma there are other ways to move in "non TWC Wing Chun"!...
*my line's footwork also includes:
- Sheung ma (biu Ma)...a step!
-Toi ma
-Forward and backward bracing (combinations front and back steps with shifting)
-inside and outside facing steps (combnations side steps with shifting)
-Juen Ma (180 degree turn)
-Crab stepping

All of this =mobility

Great post.

Again, it is not important what we choose to do, but I feel it IS important to understand why something is done a certain way. This is not to turn into a Vs. post, just an informed one:

Why do I drag the foot? To develop power. To develop that spring I need to launch myself in different directions while in combat. Why do I shift? It's like a tree blowing in the wind - the roots stay and the top moves while the branches are free to do what they want. Plus getting a little bit of power and reach also helps.

I think this takes time to develop and it's no easy task when your back leg is burning all to h3ll. But noone said it'd be easy. :)!

And as Old Jong said, there's many more ways to move.

Happy training,
Kenton Sefcik

[Phil Redmond]

Great post.

Again, it is not important what we choose to do, but I feel it IS important to understand why something is done a certain way. This is not to turn into a Vs. post, just an informed one:

Why do I drag the foot? To develop power. To develop that spring I need to launch myself in different directions while in combat. Why do I shift? It's like a tree blowing in the wind - the roots stay and the top moves while the branches are free to do what they want. Plus getting a little bit of power and reach also helps.

I think this takes time to develop and it's no easy task when your back leg is burning all to h3ll. But noone said it'd be easy. :)!

And as Old Jong said, there's many more ways to move.

Happy training,
Kenton Sefcik
Try dragging your foot and doing a Jo Ma (running horse), while an opponent is quickly back peddling away from you. Then doing the same thing while try lifting your foot. You'll see which one gets you to the opponent faster. Then try draging your foot on a plush carpet or an uneven surface like on rocks on ground with holes in it. Also, try shifting while someone pushes you laterally just at the moment of your shift. then do the same thing while stepping to the side and absorbing the force.
I'm against shifting or dragging because of my experience with doing it for 13 years. To me dragging the foot is like driving a car with the emergency brake on. I see no other contact fighters doing this. But of course people will say but their not WC. Then I'll say but they're fighting and winning. If I'm wrong then you should be able to drag your foot against a really fast and mobile boxer. It's funny because EVERY WC person that I've met in person can't catch up to me when dragging their foot. I'll put money on it ;)
PR

[Vajramusti]

Sorry to disagree with you Phil.

The basic ground connected stepping in various ways on flat ground is for developmental purposes and i prefer them for development purposes.
Once the sensitivity to the ground is achieved and the ground connection understood- one can adjust to any ground that one feels and to any distance that one senses- you can even walk in. Development and lat sao work are different stages of training.

To use a boxing analogy--- roadwork and skipping rope in that sport is for development of some attributes. In shadow boxing and sparring you do it differently. Then you adjust agin in real fights.

Joy.

[sihing]

Joy, Kenton,

I think we have all debated this subject before, or maybe this is just deja-vu? Ideally I wouldn't want to shift or drag my feet in any way, but at the satellite school I teach at you could easily get away with something like that as the floor surface is very slippery, on other surfaces you will encounter problems. Also, if it is a development tool only and not used in actual combat, this is a contradiction IMO to WC training & fighting philosophy. Why practice something and not do it in reality? Especially when it comes to your mobilitiy in a fight. Maybe this is why Dr Jan taught Chan Wah Shun the way he did? I agree with Phil's statement in this regard. Try any of those scenarios while dragging or shifting vs. stepping, yeah you could use the shifting/dragging method but it is not as effective as stepping. But I must say at times the shifting does come out in the heat of the battle, nothing wrong with this as the goal in not to perform perfect WC movement but to get the job done. I just don't agree that this is an effective way of movement on the whole. The way I step can be compared to tap dancing, very little rise of the foot while turning from one direction to the other, and this works on any surface.


James

[old jong]

My point was that all lineage have many ways to move around.The shifting is a very good development tool and is practical in many situations but there is more to it.We use steps also! (many kinds) And training makes them very fast.
I just want to clear that floating and strange idea that only TWC have footwork.Is that a marketing thing?... ;)
Anyway,I don't believe it is a good thing to promote something by creating wrong ideas about others.
Let's keep this place a discussion forum for people...Not organisations propaganda.

[Gangsterfist]

I have no idea how Yip Man taught my sigung how to use foot work, or how my sigung taught my sifu. All I know is how I am taught now. The dragging the foot thing, is IMHO a misconception. You should not drag your feet, you should skate across the ground in a way. In effect you are stepping, its just reduced to miminal movement needed to get to where you are. Remember its not who is faster, its who gets there first. A lot of times you will actually move less, and be faster than your opponet because of optimal movements. I hope that makes sense.

I was reading complete wing chun the other night and was reading over I think the Pan Nam lineage of WC. I could be mixing this up and I will have to go home and pick up my book again to reassure thats right when I get off work. But they have a principle that says every step is a kick. Which is how I train in Yang Taiji, but my sifu never really said that when we trained wing chun. Anyways, I thought that was interesting.

[KPM]

I was reading complete wing chun the other night and was reading over I think the Pan Nam lineage of WC. I could be mixing this up and I will have to go home and pick up my book again to reassure thats right when I get off work. But they have a principle that says every step is a kick. Which is how I train in Yang Taiji, but my sifu never really said that when we trained wing chun. Anyways, I thought that was interesting.

---I learned that as a standard saying in WCK: "every step a kick, every kick a step!"

Keith

[Gangsterfist]

Kieth,

I guess I have always heard my instructors say it in class, just they mostly said it when we would practice taiji and not wing chun. Maybe thats just coincidence I don't know.

However, lots of martial arts have that concept.

[Phil Redmond]

My point was that all lineage have many ways to move around.The shifting is a very good development tool and is practical in many situations but there is more to it.We use steps also! (many kinds) And training makes them very fast.
I just want to clear that floating and strange idea that only TWC have footwork.Is that a marketing thing?... ;)
Anyway,I don't believe it is a good thing to promote something by creating wrong ideas about others.
Let's keep this place a discussion forum for people...Not organisations propaganda.

Hey Michel, If you'll notice in my post I said all WC emphasizes mobility. ;) As for TWC and marketing and propganda what do you base your statement on? Were you privy to everything Yip Man taught? Or are you just follwing the trend of some WC people who will disagree with anything other than what they are familiar with? I personally know that there is footwork in TWC that isn't in other YM lineages. I base this on the fact that I'm familiar with many different WC lineages. Many people are familiar with 1 or 2 lineages at the most. My point is that until you have concrete evidence your statement about marketing is your opinion. It could be marketing for all we know but neither you nor I were not there during the private William Cheung Yip Man sessions. Get the point? Staterments like your are divisive and it's getting really old.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

My point was that all lineage have many ways to move around.The shifting is a very good development tool and is practical in many situations but there is more to it.We use steps also! (many kinds) And training makes them very fast.
I just want to clear that floating and strange idea that only TWC have footwork.Is that a marketing thing?... ;)
Anyway,I don't believe it is a good thing to promote something by creating wrong ideas about others.
Let's keep this place a discussion forum for people...Not organisations propaganda.

Hey Michel, If you'll notice in my post I said all WC emphasizes mobility. ;) As for TWC and marketing and propganda what do you base your statement on? Were you privy to everything Yip Man taught? Or are you just follwing the trend of some WC people who will disagree with anything other than what they are familiar with? I personally know that there is footwork in TWC that isn't in other YM lineages. I base this on the fact that I'm familiar with many different WC lineages. Many people are familiar with 1 or 2 lineages at the most. My point is that until you have concrete evidence your statement about marketing is your opinion. It could be marketing for all we know but neither you nor I were not there during the private William Cheung Yip Man sessions. Get the point? Staterments like your are divisive and it's getting really old my friend.
Phil

[old jong]

Too bad you take it this way Phil!
I was not privy with Yip Man but who was?...Oh! I know somebody and I talked with him not so long ago...Ho Kam Ming!
Just want to be clear about this: I'm not dissing your lineage.You know what I meant really.I'm confident about this.
BTW,propaganda that diminishes others divises,usually and that...Is getting old.
Nothing personal Phil.

[old jong]

I am aware that TWC has a few differences in footwork.I don't deny this.The only thing bugging me is how it is promoted sometimes on this forum by diminishing the other's approaches to footwork.
All lineage have their own ways to deal with footwork and there are just so many ways to put a foot in front of the other.
I could say also that all who promote some secret or exclusive things,saying that others know zero on the matter are doing the same.
The close door secrets and all that goes with these things are the main things getting realllly old.

[Phil Redmond]

I am aware that TWC has a few differences in footwork.I don't deny this.The only thing bugging me is how it is promoted sometimes on this forum by diminishing the other's approaches to footwork.
All lineage have their own ways to deal with footwork and there are just so many ways to put a foot in front of the other.
I could say also that all who promote some secret or exclusive things,saying that others know zero on the matter are doing the same.
The close door secrets and all that goes with these things are the main things getting realllly old.
Michel, You're right but I'm not one of those guys. I fought successfully using a non-TWC version and I know many good WC fighters who don't even do TWC. Many of my sihings from Duncan Leung's school are good examples. I'm just so used to having to defend what I do that sometimes I react defensively. But since I've been in many WC camps I do have an idea about what works (for me), and what doesn't. This summer I plan on visiting Montreal. I heard that the city is beautiful and I'd like to see French Canada first hand. Hopefully we'll be able to meet, have a meal and talk WC. Paz
Phil

Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Too bad you take it this way Phil!
I was not privy with Yip Man but who was?...Oh! I know somebody and I talked with him not so long ago...Ho Kam Ming!
Just want to be clear about this: I'm not dissing your lineage.You know what I meant really.I'm confident about this.
BTW,propaganda that diminishes others divises,usually and that...Is getting old.
Nothing personal Phil.
I know somebody too. In fact he lived with Yip Man for 3 years and I just just talked to him. na na na na na na. Sorry about that. I'm just in a really good mood right now. Take care Michel
Phil

[old jong]

Hey Phil! I'm in a good mood too!
Just let me know when you will be in Montreal.

BTW,The na na na na na thing was something else!... ;) :D

[anerlich]

We don't only shift!

I never said you did, and I don't think Phil did either. My point was that tWC tends to use steps almost exclusvely, and thus to a lesser degree than Grond's style, who does the shifting.

I don't mention you or your style.

BTW, TWC does the sidekick differently to some other styles as well :p

[Vajramusti]

Andrewn- I sent you a pm-- but your box was full. I then sent you an email
at an old site address for you- nothing happened. It was not about this thread.

[anerlich]

Joy,

my mailbox should be empty now, or email me at anerlich@yahoo.com

[sihing]

My point was that all lineage have many ways to move around.The shifting is a very good development tool and is practical in many situations but there is more to it.We use steps also! (many kinds) And training makes them very fast.
I just want to clear that floating and strange idea that only TWC have footwork.Is that a marketing thing?... ;)
Anyway,I don't believe it is a good thing to promote something by creating wrong ideas about others.
Let's keep this place a discussion forum for people...Not organisations propaganda.

Not to start something, but if this was the case then why is it that all you ever really see/read/hear when concerned with WC as a whole is exactly what we are talking about, shifting and dragging the feet. When I started training in WC, 99% of the material (media) that was out there in the magazines, books and video's was non-TWC, and when they wrote about footwork, they wrote about shifting and dragging the feet. The only exception was when I learned about HFY Wing Chun, which does not advocate shifting or dragging (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong), and I see alot of similarities between HFY and TWC. Since then, lots has changed and maybe that is due to exposure to other methods of WC that were once long lost. I'm not saying this is the case because no one can really know, but it is a possibility.

Also, I don't think there is anything wrong with showing weakness in a competing product, when marketing your own product, as GM Cheung did when showcasing his TWC. This is a free enterprise society and if the people representing the product shown with weakness can't take the criticism then do something about it. Disprove it. I do find it funny though that Cheung was if not the best fighter from the yester years of Hong Kong WC, at least equal to WSL in that regard, that people don't wonder why? Was he in that much better shape than everyone else he fought? Or maybe, just maybe he learned something different, that could have allowed him a slight edge? If, for e.g., Ho Kam Ming was the best fighter from Yip Man and his WC was very different from 99% of the rest of the WC clan, I would be asking allot of questions and wondering why?


James

[Phil Redmond]

I never said you did, and I don't think Phil did either. My point was that tWC tends to use steps almost exclusvely, and thus to a lesser degree than Grond's style, who does the shifting.

I don't mention you or your style. . . . .
Decorum is a good policy Andrew, especially when you're a minority. ;)
Phil

[sihing]

Yes, this is a free enterprise society. But I see only you using the Kung-Fu forum to promote your wonderful, better-than-everyone-else's school.

My shifting and dragging and flying-spinning-upside-down-kick is not a weakness. Disprove it? To whose closed mind, Sihing? I've explained and everyone else seems to understand...maybe not agree, but understand.

Closed minded? Didn't I say in my posts, a few times, that even though I advocate the stepping method, I can use the shifting/dragging foot method if I want to and that ideally the stepping method is the one that would come out but since fighting is not in a ideal environment this is not always the case? Does that sound like a closed minded person? And who said anything about superiority? I didn't, maybe your imagining things again? I do have great faith in my school though and if you ask me which Martial Arts school in the city is the best I will tell you the one I belong to is and if you don't feel that way about yours then that is your problem....

James

[old jong]

Sihing and others-
As I said before my argument was never to talk against your system concerning it's particular ways and techniques.
I simply talked about a certain tendency to embelish something by diminishing something else on this forum.
Let me be clear about this: I don't care about you (generic) believing all the Hong Kong stories and legends you choose to.I have no time to lose trying to prove people wrong on the internet and I don't care about it.
So,if you read carefully,you will understand that I don't want to be drag into a forum lineage war or something.Try at least to answer in the subject's line of thoughts.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I think that you will find that stepping as opposed to shifting, dragging the foot may be more of a situational thing then a hard and fast rule. I also think that how one applies it will depend on their skill level as well.

For example: Shifting is more economical but it takes a higher degree of skill to pull it off against a real attack. Taking a step may be a bit slower but it is easier for the average person to pull off and is also a bit safer. There is also the additional possible benefit of moving off of the line and changing the angle. Another factor is just how far one shifts, do you shift 90' 45' or some other variant? Again, while one may have an ideal the actual result will vary depending on level of skill and situation.

Having said that I would like to point out that it is possible to move quickly in a forward line using a rear weighted Bic Bo with the feet very close to the ground. However, if one opts to step I think it is important to keep in mind that teh step could be made with only a minimal loss of contact with the ground. Much like stepping in Judo where the feet drag/step just above the surface.

FWIW my Sifu teaches more of a stepping approach and this seems geared towards being able to actually use the art in a quicker time frame. Of course this is just my opinion.

I think that if you take the time to consider all of the points and sitautions you will find that no one method is the end all be all. Rather you will find that both approaches have merit depending on the level and need at the time. You may also find that the ground surface also plays into things.

Is there really a lineage which never uses both methods and is truly exclusively one or the other??

Peace,

Dave

[sihing]

Well, as an instructor and when observing students chasing an retreating opponent while dragging their feet, would be considered Wrong in my book, and the student would be advised to slighty raise their feet off the ground. Now, as I said before, there are times when you will shift the feet from one direction to the other, depending on the degree of turn, just because things are happening very fast and the degree of turn may only be 10 or 20 deg, but the training system is to pick up the feet and turn &/or step ideally, but fighting is far from ideal. As someone that has been in the WC system for a long time, and never trained in the shifting/dragging feet method, I can still do that if I want to, but can a person trained in the shifting/dragging method over a long period of time, step if they have too? Which is the harder method to adapt to, I would think going from dragging/shifting to stepping/turning would be harder, IMO. In the end, it is not about perfection of WC movement in combat, but absorbing the system as you know it as best as you can and then when you need it, it is there for you.

James

[old jong]

James-
I respect what you say and believe in.My system is different in some points but is that so important?...Do you hear me telling everybody that my system is better than your's?...
All lines of Wing Chun can produce good practitioners.Technical and theorical details have a tendency to get smaller in a fight anyway.

BTW,it would be more proper to talk about various "styles" than systems.Wing Chun has many styles as karate or other martial arts does.Boxing have many styles too.Just choose a style that fits you. ;)

Just my two CND cents! ;)

[sihing]

Michel,

I believe in general all systems/styles of WC are effective. Since my Sifu is skilled in two such styles, he would know as well as anyone else. After he came back from Australia, with the TWC knowledge in him, he started to absorb it, and came to the realization that it was a more effective system of WC than what he had learned before, but he always told us that the hard style (modified or whatever you want to call it, non-TWC systems) of WC were also very effective and to not be taken lightly, just that they were not as complete or overall as effective as what he had learned. My own investigation has lead me to believe the samething, but I would never take a WC stylist from outside my lineage lightly. I don't believe there is anything wrong with stating that you think your system of WC is the most effective. I don't ever recall putting another down for learning another system of WC that is different from mine, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything they do. I've had disagreements in regards to concept and techniques with many on here from all sorts of WC lineages and that's okay, as this is a disscussion board and disagreements will arise, as long as it doesn't get personal (Victor P excluded, lol), then things that are fine.

James

[old jong]

James-
I have absolutely no intentions of getting "personal".As I said before;I respect what you say and believe.Good for you if you found the good system for you and I wish you all the best in it.
I have to say also that I agree with you on things regarding the meaning of martial arts.

[sihing]

James-
I have absolutely no intentions of getting "personal".As I said before;I respect what you say and believe.Good for you if you found the good system for you and I wish you all the best in it.
I have to say also that I agree with you on things regarding the meaning of martial arts.

Ditto for me Michel. All I wish for you is that you enjoy your Wing Chun as much as I enjoy mine, that's all that really matters.

James

[old jong]

Ditto for me Michel. All I wish for you is that you enjoy your Wing Chun as much as I enjoy mine, that's all that really matters.

James

Believe me,I do!...I am lucky also to have very good and dedicated students.My Sifu and I maintain a very good and friendly relastionship and we have regular meetings between our two schools.Soon,we will have our third annual Montreal/Ottawa Fong family seminar.How could I ask for more?...Wing Chun is a very big part of my life.

[sihing]

Believe me,I do!...I am lucky also to have very good and dedicated students.My Sifu and I maintain a very good and friendly relastionship and we have regular meetings between our two schools.Soon,we will have our third annual Montreal/Ottawa Fong family seminar.How could I ask for more?...Wing Chun is a very big part of my life.

Glad to hear you feel the same about your WC as I do mine. Best of luck for a successful seminar in Ottawa with Sifu Fong, I respect him as a high quality WC Sifu.

James