Fanzi System

[Shaolinlueb]

whenever i look for something on fanzi, all i ever find is about the modern wushu form. does anyone have any links or video's of the fanzi system? i know it was combined with eagle claw catching techniques back in the day, but did it survive? i'm sure it did, but i cant seem to find anything on it. :(
any info would be helpful, thanks.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I was about to mention Kaoshou Fanziquan. It's a good read. Don't expect anything fancy. Another would be the book suggested by ngokfei on the Eagle Hand boxing. Its in Chinese. The photos can be followed. Plum Publications used to sell it.

Check with them for availability:

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/chinese/chinbks_simp6.htm

mickey

P.S. This guy, Gao Xian, is in New York. He is the student of Ma Xinada, a famous master of Tong Bei, Pi Gua and Fanzi--

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=233

[Three Harmonies]

I did not see the english Kaoshou Fanzi book? I am interested. Good reply BTW Wolfen! Have you ever played any Fanzi?
Jake :)

[mickey]

Plum Publications has the English Language book on Kaoshou Fanziquan:

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/kungfu/bk_kaoshou.htm

mickey

[Paul_E]

My teacher teaches Wen Jenming Kaoshou fanzi quan. It's one of his favorite styles. I have read that there are numerous branches even to for this obscure style, each generating power differently. According to my teacher, the kaoshou he practices has power generation that is northwestern in origin, similar to tongbei.

[Three Harmonies]

Paul E
Can you offer more info?
Jake :D

[Paul_E]

Paul E
Can you offer more info?
Jake :D

Jake, I don't know much about it unfortunately. It is not really my focus. I have done some basics and some drills though. I have also seen my teacher do it and some of the more senior members in the school are learning one of the forms right now. From my limited perspective and what I have been told by my teacher, kaoshou uses the rapid and circular hand techniques (sometimes handcuffed positions) and the extensive kicking of fanzi. I have even seen what looked like a piquan in one of the forms but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. There is alot of change between high and low hand attacks and the kicks that I have seen mostly seem to attack the knee and on down (however I have seen jump kicks and some head level kicks as well). I think my teacher divides kaoshou into two main forms: standing pole and I can't remember the other one. What I see students learning right now is the standing pole. It seems to be very hard on the body and employs alot of big arm and leg movements. There also seems to be a freer range in terms of space. What I mean is that the unnamed form seems to pretty much go on a straight line with some sidesteps; the player finishes one section turns around and goes back the other way in a straight line. Also in this unnamed form the movements are perhaps what you could call "small fanzi" arms are much closer to the body, the handcuff positions of the hands are more prevalent, the kicks are always low. This is also where I saw the pi quan (footwork was different though). If you were mainly curious about what I meant by power generation being northwestern-tongbei, my teacher said that tongbei's power comes from a very loose and elastic waist, spine, and shoulders. His kaoshou uses the same type of body. He taught a small segment of standing pole once to the whole class. All I can say is that it is different. You reach out as far as you can but power also comes from the recoil of the retracting arm when you punch so there is this constant circular spinal action that causes one strike to generate the power for the next. I know that this retraction/generation is common in most MA anyway but I guess in northwestern the upper body is very relaxed. As an exageration of what it should look like my teacher wiggled his upper body like a belly dancer. (Disclaimer: this is only my understanding. If this sounds like what you do in your system and is not something unique to kaoshou or northwestern styles please tell me.) I recommend that you by WenJenMing's book. My teacher has it and I am pretty sure that whatever he teaches is identical to what is in that book. If you want I could ask him for more info. He rarely checks e-mail, but I could PM you his phone number if you really want more info (Of course I'll have to ask him first). He'll be out of town for a week but after that it should be ok. He likes talking about MA (likes practicing more though). If you are ever in Chicago, you could drop by the school and talk to him then.

On a side note, for those of you who believe that my power generation description sounds like your mantis, my teacher thinks that mantis could have roots in northwestern styles. I think he learned his kaoshou from Lin Jianhua, who is a student of Wen Jenmin.

Paul

[Shaolinlueb]

thanks for all the reply's. this has helped.

[ngokfei]

Books are hard to come by and one of the only english ones on Fan Zi is the Kao Shao one.

There are books in chinese but again hard to find.

Your best bet is to collect the various vcd's on it and related styles.

Ba Shan Fan
Chuo Jiao Fan Tzi
Mian Quan Fan Tzi
Qi Family Tong Bei (has a fanzi palm set)


The Fan Zi we see done by Contemporary Wush is a compilation set which employs alot of Chang Quan and Tong Bei with some Fantzi skills.

The tumbling description either probably refers to this set or on the "reversing/Retarcing translation of the term Fan. Eagle Claw uses this theory tos imply mean to return or go back in a smooth manner almost like a rebound.


If your looking into Eagle Claw research look into styles like:

Xing Yi
Liu He
Tong Bei
Chuo Jiao
Yang Yuan
Swai Jiao

The Kao Shao Fan Tzi form in the book is strikenly related to the Hahng Kuen - 10 road walking fist of Modern Eagle Claw (Chan Tzi Ching and Lau Fat man Lineages)

What I've been told is that the 50 road lin kuen set is the creation of Chan Tzi Ching based on a much shorter set I think it was 14 roads.

Also there are differences between Chan Tzi Ching's students and Lau Fat man's students knowledge of this set. there are 2 versions. Lau Fat man's version is much more simpler (meaning emphasizing the claw) as the other version has alot more kicks in it.

hope this helps.

PS: does your teacher LF teach Lin Kuen?

[Paul_E]

The clip of Master Shao looks like standing pole, the one the more senior students are learning. That guy is fast!

[Fu-Pow]

Nice link to Fanzi (http://www.adamwade.com/humor/coffee/fonz.jpg)

[Three Harmonies]

**** dude! :eek: I know I asked for some info, but......... :p

Thanks!
Jake

[Ben Gash]

I've got Hong Zhi Tian's Chuojiao set, and it seems to be the real deal (as in not modern sport wushu). Quite weird with some interesting, almost silk reeling style strikes. Kind of like a Xingyi guy doing his own interpretation of monkey (if you can possibly imagine that :eek: ).

[Ben Gash]

Anyway, why on earth was this moved to the mantis forum? :confused: Does this mean that any legitimate kung fu questions on the kung fu forum will be moved? :mad:

[mantis108]

First and foremost, my usual caveat applies

I believe there might just be a connection somewhat between BaShanFan and Tanglang. I don't have concrete evidence but some circumstantial ones.

1) In the greater Meihwa lines, it is generally believe that Li Bingxiao (mid 1700s) learned Tanglang from a nameless outlaw. Most believe that the nameless outlaw is kind of a Robin Hood type of character. I am of the opinion that the outlaw could have once belonged to White Lotus cult or one of its derivatives. Many cluts including the White Lotus were banned by the Qing imperial edit arround 1646 CE. Those who associate with the cults would be punnished. This was partly due to the Shandong chapter of the White Lotus' revoke at the end of Ming dynasty. Cults at those time would blend martial arts, healing and shamanistic practices as the path to "spiritual enlightenment". We see evidence of that in some Hakka arts even today. He might have difficulty in making a living because of his association with the cult and became a robber or he was unable to bribe his way out and fallen ill in prison where he met Li.

2) One of the highly regarded manuscript "Shaolin Authentic" in Mantis has an introduction by the author Hsing Hsiao Dao Ren (also believed to be arround mid 1700s CE) that specifically stated martial arts practice described in the manuscript has nothing to do with magical feast. This disassociation is deliberate IMHO.

3) I have talked to a friend who practice Fanziquan (Wentan Fanzi). He mentioned that his great grandmaster was in fact a member of Yi He Quan which was a spin off group of White Lotus cult. He also shared a sonnet of his style and certain techniques. These move loosly resemble the last 4 moves of the 32 moves outlined in General Qi's book. In the sonnet of the Fanziquan, there are mentioning of Gangrou, Jintui, etc. The moves that he showed me do resemble some classical moves in Tanglang. In fact, they have Yi Bu San Chui (one step three punches), which they regards as the root and sauce of everything. Three fists out of the seven fist expressed as keywords mentioned in the sonnet matches older "hands" of mantis (ie Pi).

4) Mantis (the insect) has an ancient alias as Heavenly Horse and Resisting Axe. It is also mentioned in Daoist texts as fearless creature against authority. Could mantis be a code name of resistance?

So is it possible that the nameless outlaw was a member of White Lotus cult or its derivative which might have use some form of Fanziquan as the martial training?

Just a few thoughts for now...

Mantis108

[truffy64]

The modern form at summer creates by a Master Hung.
¶Schools with the u.S.A. are only one simple combination.
¶The Master still saw but it does not have that a Western student (in France).
Master Hung made a demonstration in Texas in 1991. ¶
¶He is an actor and choreographer. ¶
¶one can see it in =snake eagles shadow (chorégraphe), pride deadly fury (actor), kid's from shaolin, (actor and choregraph), shaolin temple (choregraph), tai chi master (choregraph)...30 movies
¶The style is composed ready of 100 forms (tai chi, partner, weapons...).

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Mantis 108: my brother described Fanzi as being developed durring the cults revolution after a prison break. the style was specifically developed by one of the escapees who refused to have his shackles removed so that he could develop the style. eventually he was caught and returned to prison where he was killed trying to escape again. just a bit of folk lore.

does that 50 road form exist in book or vid somewhere?

[mantis108]

Regarding the origin of Fanziquan, there are different tales. Some accredited it to Song dynasty's General Yue Fei who was also said to be Eagle Claw and Xingyi's progenitor also (he's a pretty busy boy. ;) ) However, the sonnet that contains his posthumous title (MoWu) is the exact same as my friend's sonnet except the name of the founder is Luo Cun instead. So...

50 form that of Ying Zhua Fanzi (combination of 2 styles)? Could your brother be a modern day Eagle Claw stylist? My friend Fanzi has a WuHwaPao (5 blossoms cannon) both a short strikes move and a long form. In fact, he said it would be okay to handle most situations with just learning the short strike move WuHwaPao because it contains most of the important principles of Fanziquan.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

50 form that of Ying Zhua Fanzi (combination of 2 styles)? Could your brother be a modern day Eagle Claw stylist? My friend Fanzi has a WuHwaPao (5 blossoms cannon) both a short strikes move and a long form. In fact, he said it would be okay to handle most situations with just learning the short strike move WuHwaPao because it contains most of the important principles of Fanziquan.

Warm regards

Mantis108

well...hard to say exactly. at the school where he learned the 14 road form he was introduced as an eagle claw stylist, but he really wasn't. however, while there he managed to trick some folks into teaching him. if it made it to the southwest he probably knows it. then again, if he could find someone to teach him he probably went there, too! on more than one occasion he really harassed people into sharing thier forms with him. he was real ornary when he was my age. borderline feral. :rolleyes:

[shaolin_allan]

Hey everyone I practice this form that is broken down into 8 sections. I have forgot a part of section 7 and I was wondering if anyone else on this forum does this form and would be able to help me fill in the blanks? Here is a clip of the first half of the form http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOwdqNj2pg&feature=player_embedded. Thanks in advance.

[ngokfei]

just pick up the book.

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/chinese/chinbks_trad8.htm

[shaolin_allan]

Hi I was wondering if anyone else has heard of a master from china named Jiang Hualong and if he is connected to kao shou fanzi quan? thanks in advance.

[Tainan Mantis]

I study under the line of Jiang Hualong.
As far as I know he is not connected to kao shou fanzi quan.

His grand student Cui Shoushan wrote a complete list of kung fu of several hundred pages.
Nowhere in this list is the word fan zi quan.
Though, there is numerous mention of fan che as part of the praying mantis style.

Why do you ask? Have you come across Jiang Hualong in the Fanzi style?

An article of fanche as it relates to Praying Mantis Fanche of the Middle Road (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2011/zhonglu%20fanche.htm)

[shaolin_allan]

I was just curious because I was reading about fan che and Jiang Hualong and from what I have learned of kaou shou fanzi quan the movements he had learned sound very similar to what is in kao shou. It's a few movements including chops with lots of repetition. I was just curious if there was a connection or not, thanks for replying.

[Tainan Mantis]

If I could see the exercises I could make a better judgement if it looks like anything from Jiang Hualong's Mantis as I understand it.

[GeneChing]

Old School. READ Punching as Fast as a String of Firecrackers - Master Narcyz Latecki on Preserving Traditional Wushu the Right Way (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1588) by Emilio Alpanseque

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/9619_Fanziquan_Lead.jpg

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