Antique Katana for sale...

[Samurai Jack]

Hey guys, I'm selling an Antique Samurai Sword (http://search.ebay.com/old-antique-samurai-sword-katana_W0QQfkrZ1QQfromZR8) on ebay. Check it out, tell your friends. It's a signed mid-nineteenth century (1830-1850) samurai sword valued at $1,900. It's made of folded steel, has bronze and silver fittings, and is functional. I'll toss out the shipping charges ($50-65) if a KFM member wins it...

;)

[Jhapa]

how many times the sword has been folded.

[PangQuan]

**** I wish I had the bucks for that. One a similar note, are you by chance a good connection for such blades? I will eventually be looking for a decent master quality blade. Ill start saving now.

[David Jamieson]

Do you have provenance with it?

Any appraisal docs from experts? etc etc?

If so, that should probably be in your write up with it.
It grieves me to tell you that without these, your sword is worth about 45 bucks.
with them it may very well command a very high dollar.

you may want to remove the term "blood groove" from your write up. That is not an actual term outside of rex kwon do school of thought. :)

The correct western term is "fuller" I am uncertain as to what the japanese term is for the strip of metal removed to lighten the blade is.

food for thought.

[Samurai Jack]

Jhapa- I must admit this is the first time that I've heard this question asked. Being that the sword was made around 150 years ago as evidenced by the swordsmiths name and the corrosion underneath the Tsuka (handle), no one alive can answer with certainty. Rest assured that the folding grain is visible on the blade itself, and that grain cannot be faked. However, I decided to research your question and came up with the following pieces of information.

From Hanwei Forge (a modern forge that mass-produces medium to good quality handmade swords):

"A question we get asked frequently is "how many folds are in your folded steel katanas". The number of folds or layers is insignificant. In medieval Japan, the folding process was originally used to remove impurities in the steel. Since the blades are handmade, each smith at the Hanwei forge would fold each blade until the blade had the proper look, however many times that smith felt it would take. The number of layers would increase expodentially with the number of folds. There is not a set number of folds or layers."

From Barrington Swords:

"The steel intended for the hard outer surface of the blade, kawagane is made of steel of high carbon content and is commonly folded 13-20 times. The steel intended for the core shingane has much lower carbon content and is folded about 10 times. If the edge is made from a separate piece, steel called hochogane (or hagane) is used. It is made from tamahagane and zukuoroshigane (old iron from pots etc.), and folded around 18 times."

From the Japanese Sword Buyer's Guide:

"A folded steel blade is typically made from high carbon steel. The difference is that a folded steel blade is just like it says; the steel is folded over and over again until the smith believes that it is adequate."

Here is a Q and A from Japanese Reference:

http://www.jref.com/culture/japanese_swords.shtml

[Samurai Jack]

Kung lek:

The sword is authentic and as described. It is worth much more than I am asking.

[Samurai Jack]

****I wish I had the bucks for that. One a similar note, are you by chance a good connection for such blades? I will eventually be looking for a decent master quality blade. Ill start saving now.

I do occassionaly have access to good swords through my iaido dojo and our federation. Almost everyone has an antique sword who I train with, and my Sensei is a collector. The one I'm selling was too valuable for me to want to use as I didn't want to risk damaging the fittings and I couldn't afford new ones to use for practice only. Everything is strong enough that I could have used it had I so desired, but I liked having everything original.

FYI, the highest quality swords go for $15,000 or more, although a functional weapon can be had for between $1,500 and $5,000. I would stay away from anything less than $1,000 unless you were just planning on hanging it on your wall. The sword I am offering could be used for iaido and is most definately a better investment than the more modern swords offered at a similar price. I very much doubt I'll have something like this for sale again in the near future, but I could point you in the right direction.

[David Jamieson]

jack, all I am saying is that without provenance, your sword is not verifiable.

there is a large market in forged antiques and without expert certification or actual bonafide provenance, a swords dollar value is only what someone is will to pay to you as opposed to getting what you ask.

rust, and what not is easy enough to induce.

It really would be worth your while to get the thing checked out at a small expense to you. this will ensure that you get the highest price for your sword.

unfortunately, when it comes to items like this, ones words is simply not good enough even for what could be seen as a reasonable sum by some people.

there are literally thousands of swords from teh post war era that were simply japanese soldiers and officers swords banged out during teh war and banned afterwards. These are standard run of the mill Katanas and have little value in reality.

The smith of the sword is most important. From that point you can know how it was forged and how many times it was folded. Some of the very best swords are folded more than 100 times! :eek:

anyway, just saying, papers is better than no papers.

[Samurai Jack]

I'm hearing what you are saying Kung. This sword is verified. Thank you for your concern.

[PangQuan]

I do occassionaly have access to good swords through my iaido dojo and our federation. Almost everyone has an antique sword who I train with, and my Sensei is a collector. The one I'm selling was too valuable for me to want to use as I didn't want to risk damaging the fittings and I couldn't afford new ones to use for practice only. Everything is strong enough that I could have used it had I so desired, but I liked having everything original.

FYI, the highest quality swords go for $15,000 or more, although a functional weapon can be had for between $1,500 and $5,000. I would stay away from anything less than $1,000 unless you were just planning on hanging it on your wall. The sword I am offering could be used for iaido and is most definately a better investment than the more modern swords offered at a similar price. I very much doubt I'll have something like this for sale again in the near future, but I could point you in the right direction.

Cool, Ill keep you in mind when I am ready to make buying inquiries. Currently I own a Hanwei, its ok for now, it cuts good. I just really need a new saya for it though, as the blade and fittings is where the money is in the blade. Any Idea as to how I could go about getting a good saya, other than making one. I dont have the time for that.

[Finny]

Verified by who, Jack?

To my eyes, the bohi look quite suspect, the mei looks a bit dodgy, and the 'rust' on the tang looks like cheap, chinese made 'antique-type rust' (tm.)

The sori is also quite extreme and atypical of the time period you attribute it to.

Looks like a poor quality chinese made rip off.

And unless you get it verified (with papers and certificates, signatures etc.) by someone 'in the know', passing it off as a valuable antique is practically fraudulent.

[Samurai Jack]

Verified by who, Jack?

To my eyes, the bohi look quite suspect, the mei looks a bit dodgy, and the 'rust' on the tang looks like cheap, chinese made 'antique-type rust' (tm.)

The sori is also quite extreme and atypical of the time period you attribute it to.

Looks like a poor quality chinese made rip off.

And unless you get it verified (with papers and certificates, signatures etc.) by someone 'in the know', passing it off as a valuable antique is practically fraudulent.

Finny, you've been trolling my posts since you became a member. I'll have you booted if you keep it up.

To everyone else: PM me if you have any questions.

[Gowgee]

SJ,

Shouldn't the smith's name be "Yamamoto Yuuichi"? The characters on the tang say this, but in honesty I've never heard of such an edo-period smith. Under what school of swordsmiths is he under, and who was his master?

[Samurai Jack]

I've PM'd your answer Gowgee.

[Mr Punch]

The smith of the sword is most important. From that point you can know how it was forged and how many times it was folded.This is not true. The folding varied from sword to sword (it was not a proscribed number of folds per forge or even per smith, it was 'kan de' - by gut feeling) and nobody kept records as to which sword was folded how many times.

The only way you could tell (possibly) how many times a sword was folded is by a chemical/electromicroscopic process which would involve the destruction of the blade.

[Finny]

LMAO - Jack, I couldn't care less about trolling your posts.

We had a disagreement over the Aikido/Bagua issue, other than that I've never spoken to you - why/how are you gonna 'have me booted'???

I simply offered my opinion of your 'antique samurai sword'. You haven't shown one piece of evidence to back up the notion that it is in fact antique and not a chinese rip off - which comprise 95% of the 'ebay - antique - sword' market.

Simple questions with simple answers - don't shoot the messenger informing you of your own stupidity.

EDIT: BTW Jack - I posted a link to your auction on the Nihonto forum at Swordforum.com - see other informed opinions here: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48683

Enjoy.

[Samurai Jack]

A full third of your posts have been directly to me, and each one has has had an insulting tone in which you have outright called me a name. 29 of your 30 posts have have been outright trolling negativity.

[Samurai Jack]

Oh, and the worst that the two posters can say about my sword is that there aren't enough pictures and the tsuba looks cast...

:rolleyes:

A cast tsuba (How else do you think they make a bronze tsuba?)and my own ineptitude with digital photography, do not a rip-off artist make.

FYI I'm trying to sell this sword because I need money to pay my bills. Otherwise I'd keep it because it's a good sword, and I like it. It's really too bad that I've allowed your little personal vendeta to effect my financial security.

[Finny]

Once again - the ad hominem argument rears it's ugly head - we're not talking about me and my posting habits, we're talking about your sword and it's authenticity - can you prove it?

Actually, the 'worst' thing the people posting on the other forum had to say about your sword is 'FAKE - Chinese crap.' (The first person who posted) - They all said it was a fake.

I honestly don't intend to troll your posts, Jack - I wish you all the best, particularly with regards to your financial security - it's so important these days.

But at the same time I feel obligated to call things as I see them - anyone with an ounce of knowlege regarding nihonto can see that your 'antique' is a chinese fake - from the artificially created rust to the cast tsuba, to the shoddy sori and kissaki, and the dodgy looking mei - not to mention the appalling look of the habaki and bohi.

BTW bronze tsuba are/were forged, not cast. Cast tsuba are a classic indicator of a chinese fake antique.

Perhaps we should let people make up their own minds - maybe you will be able to scam someone out of two grand and rectify your financial situation - whatever happens, you won't be selling anyone an 'antique katana', cos you haven't got one.

Maybe you'd like to tell us a bit more about the 'appraisal' you've had done - simply telling us that 'it has been verified' is not a very convincing position to take - who did the appraisal - where are the certificates?