a satisfactory power generation

[Hendrik]

First, I would like to say, this might not be a discussion for everyone. So, ignore this discussion if it is not for you.



Looking around, I am thinking and thinking. a question always bother me greatly.

The question is what is a satisfactory realistic power generation?

See,
people getting old, there are people who is less forturne with weaker physical body. There are people with back problem, shoulder problem, knees problem, eyes probelm, hernia , hypertention, palpiltation heart beat, ashma........ all sort of things. because as human things happen.

It really bother me to think that WCK is only for the strong and healty or etheletics. The aging the weak the sick the one with condition needs to defence themself too or might needed to defence themself even more.

Is it anyway is it there a possibility a satisfactory power generation that be able for the aging for the less fortunate to train and feel comfortable with because thier health can effort and support the training? what is that satisfactory power generation needed to have? can do? can be train for even the weakest?


there must be a way and may be some good idea will come from everyone.


OSU!

[Ernie]

BUY A GUN ! :p

[t_niehoff]

Hendrik wrote:

See,
people getting old, there are people who is less forturne with weaker physical body. There are people with back problem, shoulder problem, knees problem, eyes probelm, hernia , hypertention, palpiltation heart beat, ashma........ all sort of things. because as human things happen.

It really bother me to think that WCK is only for the strong and healty or etheletics. The aging the weak the sick the one with condition needs to defence themself too or might needed to defence themself even more.

**What I find amusing is that no one would ask this sort of question about any other physical activity but some folks seem to believe that fighting is "different." For example, no one would ask "how can people with back problem, shoulder problem, knees problem, eyes probelm, hernia , hypertention, palpiltation heart beat, ashma become good swimmers or good runners?" Everyone recognizes that there are just some things any person needs to do to be able to swim or run well and there's no getting around it. If you're not physically up to it, then you won't be able to swim or run well. Period. It's the same with any physical activity. But somehow folks believe -- because they want to believe it, it's that magical thinking again -- that they can develop good fighting skills even though fighting is the most intense of all physical activities!

[PaulH]

Last night I was trying to help an old man to learn WC. It was a futile attempt as he could not generate even a little power. His whole body is so stiff and rigid. So I would suggest that training the body first to be more supple and flexible would help. Then the mind, then the spirit. How am I doing, "Sihing" Ernie? =)

[Hendrik]

**What I find amusing is that no one would ask this sort of question about any other physical activity but some folks seem to believe that fighting is "different."

For example, no one would ask "how can people with back problem, shoulder problem, knees problem, eyes probelm, hernia , hypertention, palpiltation heart beat, ashma become good swimmers or good runners?" Everyone recognizes that there are just some things any person needs to do to be able to swim or run well and there's no getting around it. If you're not physically up to it, then you won't be able to swim or run well. Period. It's the same with any physical activity.


But somehow folks believe -- because they want to believe it, it's that magical thinking again -- that they can develop good fighting skills even though fighting is the most intense of all physical activities!



TN,

sometimes people practicing martial art because they think by learning martial art they can defend themself.
False security is one thing which bother me. False promise is another one.


You might believe that Physical is the bottom line for all. Some might belive it different. who knows? may be yes may be not. and I think it is benificial to have this discuss out so that things are clear even if we cannot find a solution. We dont want to mislead people. and we want to try to find anykind of posible alternative if exist for those who need it. IMHHO.

[Hendrik]

Last night I was trying to help an old man to learn WC. It was a futile attempt as he could not generate even a little power. His whole body is so stiff and rigid. So I would suggest that training the body first to be more supple and flexible would help. Then the mind, then the spirit. How am I doing, "Sihing" Ernie? =)


Great !

helping elderly is always a great thing!

[Tom Kagan]

I've decided to write a book: Kung Fu for Old People - The Ving Tsun System. This will be a sequel to my SiHing's book first published in 1975: Kung Fu for Young People - The Ving Tsun System by Douglas Lee.

However, not wanting to be one of the "theoreticians" which our resident Johnny-one-note, Terrence (;) I couldn't resist, mea culpa), enjoys talking about, I've decided that the only way to really become good at such an art is to get old first.

I'm coming up on the second anniversary of my 39th birthday. Hmmm, I don't feel old yet. In fact, I feel a bit younger than I did a couple of years ago. This book might take a while longer than I first thought. :D


Seriously, if there really was some special kind of training that could make an old person produce power on the level of a young person, don't you think the young, smart, martial artists would be training it already? There is too much fame and glory to found in the Martial Art world for someone to pass it up. Surely, a the young and strong could run rings around the old and sick if both learned to do it right.


How to get an old person to produce the "satisfactory power generation" of which you seek is very straightforward: Make them young. The adage of not being able to teach an old dog new tricks is just another myth belonging on the scrap heap of folklore.

Mother nature may limit just how much "younger" you can train a person to be. But, right now, without the aid of the medical field, you can teach an old person to be young. All of the "youngsters" who are more advanced in years - right here in this forum and elsewhere - who still are in the "beautiful springtime" of their life are living proof!

[Mr Punch]

Wind.

Sun.

Waves.

But round here... mostly the first one. ;)

[Redd]

BUY A GUN ! :p

To exterminate them? If only the old and injured had retired from practice to avoid insulting the young and healthy.

[Redd]

**What I find amusing is that no one would ask this sort of question about any other physical activity but some folks seem to believe that fighting is "different." For example, no one would ask "how can people with back problem, shoulder problem, knees problem, eyes probelm, hernia , hypertention, palpiltation heart beat, ashma become good swimmers or good runners?" Everyone recognizes that there are just some things any person needs to do to be able to swim or run well and there's no getting around it. If you're not physically up to it, then you won't be able to swim or run well. Period. It's the same with any physical activity. But somehow folks believe -- because they want to believe it, it's that magical thinking again -- that they can develop good fighting skills even though fighting is the most intense of all physical activities!

Your right. No one old or injured should try to swim, run, practice martial arts. A hopeless waste. Better to end their misery. Give them the gun.

[KPM]

Don't let him fool you. I'll bet Hendrik already has an answer in mind. But he likely won't elaborate on it or explain it. My guess is that he is trying to get someone to bring up Noi Gung, internal training. short power, shock power, etc. The things that rely more on structure and coordination than on pure brawn and muscle. And besides, WCK is a very technical system. Someone that has been practicing it into old age should have developed very good technique, timing, sensitivity, and reflexes. All things that can win out over youth and muscle in many circumstances. Yip Man was still going strong into old age even with cancer. How much power did he have? I don't know. I wasn't there. :D

Keith

[t_niehoff]

Old people can practice WCK, just like they can practice BJJ -- but if you want to get good at BJJ or WCK you need to do certain things. There's no way around it. If you are physically unable to do them, you just can't develop.

There are guys down at the boxing gym that are in their late 50s, early-60s, and guess what they're doing -- what everyone else is, skipping rope, hitting the bags, hitting the focus mits, sparring. There are some older guys at the BJJ school, and guess what they are doing, going to technique class, rolling, doing cardio, etc.

Age is not the issue: the issue is doing the necessary things (work). If you can do it, you can develop; it you can't do it, you won't develop. End of story.

[Hendrik]

IT seems that good fit Physical is the bottom line of Martial art training?
since Martial art training might be for self-defence and/or ring competition.
Thus, it is useless to train in martial art in general because one can never choose one's opponent. and there is a 50/50 chance at least that the opponent or attacker turn out to be stronger then one physically?




Keith,

if You have ideas on the topic, post it.

It would be appreciate if you drop making any judgement on me or making guess work about me here which has nothing todo with the topic of discussion.



OSU!

[andreww]

Hi

There are physiological phenomena that accompanying aging, that some do not suffer the degeneration as early as others means that some can train harder later, but we all suffer, to some degree, histological changes in our muscles, joints, neurology, fascia, connective tissues etc.

For example in a discussion of the effects of ageing on the joints one could consider the following. Aging results in; a reduced ROM due to a reduction in structural (ligamentous) support; increased chance of the formation of adhesions; a reduction in the production of glycosaminoglycans, which directly effects the resisting and distribution of force within the joint; tissue metabolism changes mean that injuries are slower to heal, slow healing leading to a reduction in the participation of hard training and quite a few more.

Regarding the above, one could keep in mind that the body (using the neuromuscular system) will do much to protect it and thereby reducing joint velocities. Similarly, muscles, tendons, nerves and other physiological structures degenerate and effect performance.

So while one may argue that older people are wiser etc, the aging body simply can’t perform with the same vigour as it did before these changes take place.

Regards Andrew W.

[Hendrik]

I am thinking to define satisfactory amount of power.

may be we need to look at
how many pound of min power is needed to knock a 300LB guy out?
how many knock are needed?

Grappling might need the most power to lock to hold.....etc


kicking might not be that good because aging or condition body might not be strong enough?


But then how to define all these fuzzy stuffs.....

[Vajramusti]

Deepends on position(s) and timing.
joy

[KPM]

if You have ideas on the topic, post it.

----I did! :rolleyes:

It would be appreciate if you drop making any judgement on me or making guess work about me here which has nothing todo with the topic of discussion.

----But it did have to do with the topic of discussion!

Keith

[t_niehoff]

Hendrik,

Fighting is an intense physical activity, so one's physical condition will be a significant factor.

With regard to WCK "power", in my view and experience it is mechanic-driven rather than attribute-driven (like hitting a golf ball depends more on the level of the mechanics of our swing rather than how much we can bench press) so smaller or weaker folks can develop significant levels of power. Being able to apply that mechanics in fighting (WCK) is an intense physical activity, so one's physical condition will be a significant factor. Now if they just stand there, don't try to hit me, and let me hit them . . . .

[KPM]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff]Hendrik,

With regard to WCK "power", in my view and experience it is mechanic-driven rather than attribute-driven (like hitting a golf ball depends more on the level of the mechanics of our swing rather than how much we can bench press) so smaller or weaker folks can develop significant levels of power. QUOTE]

----See Hendrik! That's exactly what I was saying when I stated that WCK was a very "technical" system that develops technique, timing, and reflexes that can win out over straight brawn and muscle in many instances.

Keith

[AndrewP]

It's all in the goals of what you want from martial arts.

When I started wing chun for the first time in 1986-87 at age 18-19 I took a year's worth of private lessons but college, work (2 jobs), and life took over. I didn't have the drive to prioritize wing chun. I had youth, adrenalin, the marine corps, and other things pumping up my ego. I didn't get into fights so I didn't care. But it was always a dream to learn a martial art.

Starting in April 2000 I started again but now I had a job, family, and more responsibilities. But I had time and desire to pursue the dream. I just quit my 2nd job and I had extra time. I quickly realized that at age 33 that I already was too old for anything quite serious and competitive. So I had to come up with reasons and thoughts for wing chun that fit me and my limitiations (self-imposed & otherwise).

Here are a few in no particular order:

1. It's a dream to know how to do a martial art.

2. It's a hobby to develop, learn, challenge, and enjoy like any other hobby.

3. Like any hobby - hobbies have a practical use, a niche to be filled in life, a skill that has some practicality to be used - whether physical, social, or intellectual. Wing chun has all three for me.

4. I can't speak for no other school or lineage but as far as my own - wing chun has given me the confidence of being to greatly increase my chances to physically survive and operate in an emergency life-threatening situation (w/o weapons) - at least for 5-10 seconds to find an out or escape.

5. It has given me a respect and strategy to deal with ego-filled atmospheres where I have come to the conclusion: the strong may survive but the wise & smart prosper and thrive.

6. It has given me different strategies for dealing with inner-city high school kids (See my rants and raves in the thread Put Up or Shut Up).

7. I never was very athletic or tough. Wing chun is almost tailor made to conserve the body and strength. It's great for an old man - or woman.

8. There is no rush when you get older. Teach the old man slowly. It's not a waste of time. You teaching someone difficult to teach will make you a better teacher and student of wing chun. It will force you to think of solutions other than strength, speed, and stamina.

9. I have always said and believed that if you want to go into competitions of the UFC kind then wing chun will not serve you well. If you're a bouncer and dealing with drunks and hotheads and have to protect door ways or remove human trash, then wing chun will serve you greatly. A former classmate of mine who's a bouncer on the side says he just smiles everytime he huen saos and chops to the neck like an inside kwan sao. The recipient just becomes limp and problem solved.

10. Previously, it was said that Yip Man was going strong at the end of his life. Not physically, I say, but beautiful conservation-minded wing chun is what mad Yip Man strong.

11. Speed is fantastic. Supposedly, the speed of light is fastest. Only one thing is faster than the speed of light, according to Einstein, and that is a geometric construct. Imagine a cosmic pair of scissors. When closing, the point of intersection can travel faster than the speed of light. Wing chun attempts to temper the speed of an opponent with geometric constructs and angles. Subtle coverage and deflection is great in wing chun. Functional strength, in wing chun, is achieved by bone power and leverage. When a person steps into your bone structure you don't even feel the tap of your fist/palm on his chin. Yet, they don't know what him them - they fly off the ground, knocked back 10-15 feet. That's superior wing chun. And you're more surprised at the results because you put no effort into it. But the effort of bone alignment yields maxmimun re****s. In my view wing chun trains for that.

12. The world isn't all about physical strength and young vs. old. At least not in my world. All the gangs believe that but they eventually get old, if lucky, and see it differently. The world is mixed - young and old. After the old person is trained a bit put him up against a young guy with little or no training. It will benefit them both. The old guy feels a sense of control and accomplishment and doesn't have the ego to feel the need to beat up the kid. The kid learns there is more to youth and strength and can deal with and learns patience. That is well-rounded training and education.

13. Here's a lesson for the young: I'm a couch potato. I rarely work out - except for eating. I'm 6' and 250 pounds of soft flesh and blubber. But when I train a little wing chun I love to play with younger people - 18-25 that smoke cigarettes. I usually don't become agressive. I just play defense - deflect, move, rotate - but I try to keep arm contact at all times. They are allowed to use strength and speed. After 5-10 minutes they are on the floor gasping for breath and I just break a sweat. They do not have the lung capacity and they're moves are inefficient. Too much energy for too little results. I don't mind if I get whacked because I see that as my fault for not having a good defense. If the other person is smart they realize that it's time to learn a more efficient way.

14. There is more to life than wing chun, but wing chun will bring more to your life.

See ya!

AndrewP

[anerlich]

I quickly realized that at age 33 that I already was too old for anything quite serious and competitive.

I'm 50, and will be competing in BJJ this year, hopefully at seniors national level. One of my sidais won a master's world championship on Brazil last year, and she's over 35. To get my BB by age 60, I'm going to have to be VERY serious. Actually to get even purple belt I'll need to be heavily committed.

I started WC at 35 (though I'd done other CMA since 22), and have been training seriously ever since.

I live a very busy, rich and rewarding life outside MA also.


I never was very athletic or tough. Wing chun is almost tailor made to conserve the body and strength. It's great for an old man - or woman.

Nor was I, though I'm fitter and tougher at 50 that I was at 20. Many MA fit those requirements.

[anerlich]

Only one thing is faster than the speed of light, according to Einstein, and that is a geometric construct. Imagine a cosmic pair of scissors. When closing, the point of intersection can travel faster than the speed of light.

The Superluminal Scissors do not actually work. Check out the Relativity and Faster Than Light FAQs that a Google search will find. It's not the point of blade intersection that "theoretically" travels FTL, but the points of the blades. The intersection is stationary. However closing a pair of cosmic scissors with blades a light year long Will NOT result in the tips of the blades closing FTL, because this would require a level of physical rigidity far beyond that belonging to any actual or theoretical material, and for other reasons which I can't remember which are in the FAQ.

There are some phenomena where relative velocities can be FTL, expiained in the FAQ. But none of these have any real application for travel or communication. Or Wing Chun, for that matter.

Argue with the FAQ writers and not me.

[AndrewP]

Anerlich:


Maybe I should have said:

I quickly realized that at age 33 that I already was too old for anything UNLESS I BECAME quite serious and competitive.

I should have also said that's the way I feel.

As for cosmic scissors, it was just a good analogy - it seemed kool, I thought.

Happy competitions! I respect you a lot for it. I don't have that desire. I prefer the TV.

See ya!

AndrewP

[anerlich]

Andrew P:

No sweat, I make no claims to perfect mental health in following my aspirations. My wife questions my sanity regularly. Nothing wrong with your take on it.

FWIW and anyone is interested, here's a link to a "Superluminal Scissors" article:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/scissors.html

[anerlich]

Andrew P:

No sweat, I make no claims to perfect mental health in following my aspirations. My wife questions my sanity regularly. Nothing wrong with your take on it.

FWIW and anyone is interested, here's a link to a "Superluminal Scissors" article:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/scissors.html

And actually, I misread your post: the join of the scissor blades doesn't move, but the blade's intersection, the point where they meet on closing, is what the paradox says should move FTL, though special relativity explains why it won't, per the article above.

[AndrewP]

Anerlich:

My wife thought I was totally insane when I was sound asleep and doing the first part of first form while snoring.

Now, when she starts pulling the covers I stop her with a lan sao or a gan sao or a chop to the covers. She says I am using force. She can't budge the covers. I have no memories of these things happening.

So, you and I share the WC virus. Have fun.

AndrewP

[Yaksha]

my teacher is weaker than me and has a bad back that is so painful that he can not even lift mildly heavy things. He's almost double my age. However, he can still always get a very sharp edge on me or anyone I know using his wing chun against any technique so quickly you barely have time to blink your eyes twice. He can't hit as hard as he used to before the back trouble, but he can still one-inch punch hard enough to floor you through a phone book or two and you can feel the force exit through the other side of your body.

So I don't know about all this talk about wing chun only being good for the strong and able-bodied is about.

It seems that the more relaxed you can become the split second before you hit, the more power you generate when the force is switched on at the impact.

As far as age degenerates a person's body, that is not necessarily true except in extreme instances. Inaction deteriorates the body. I know someone over 90 years old who has as much vigour as a typical 70 year old. Farmers and other people who constantly do safe, yet strenuous work seem to live longer and stay in better shape than everyone else. Your body has an upkeep cost and in the process of becoming a "mature responsible adult" most people seem to shun doing the things necessary to upkeep their bodies and its no suprise that they wither quickly. An unused body or mind can atrophy with tremendous speed once it gets into the habit of not being used.

[PaulH]

I do not know of any sources of power that are mightier than simple words outpouring from desperate men with desperate needs.

"In response to Knox's prayers, Mary Queen of Scots is reputed to have said: "I fear the prayers of John Knox more than all the assembled armies of Europe." In response to the rising resistance of the Scottish Reformers, Mary fled Scotland and was later put to death by a court of English who had accused her of plotting to assassinate Elizabeth I. Knox was survived by the Scottish Covenanters, who drew up a compact in 1638 asserting their right, under God, to national sovereignty. "

[Hendrik]

I do not know of any sources of power that are mightier than simple words outpouring from desperate men with desperate needs.------


determination goes no where without believe there is a solution .

believe goes no where without awareness.

awareness goes no where with those rigidly stuck in scientific and physics explaination without knowing scientific and physics are just explaination and model for what is very clearly known.

and known always preceed scientific and physics model before explaination and modeling.

there are a different between existence which not being model yet or science not be able to model and what is not exist.

[PaulH]

It's humbling act to admit that one does not always have an answer or explanation for a lot of things. =)

[anerlich]

I do not know of any sources of power that are mightier than simple words outpouring from desperate men with desperate needs.

Has anyone seen the kids' movie, Thunderpants? :cool:

[PaulH]

I was reading W. Churchill when I ran through this marvelous phrase "Although always prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it shoud be postponed." Taking the cue, I have conveniently overlooked some silly noise from one who can't help on how he's born. =D

[John Weiland]

There are so many documented cases of an elderly person using martial arts to defend themselves successfully against younger, bigger, stronger, more athletic, (pick your adjective) attackers that the naysayers of this thread are on thin ice.

Naturally this is the exception and not the norm, but then, how many oldsters study or have studied a martial art?

This reminds me of the argument that women or men of small stature can't benefit from MA.

One could give many examples of oldsters who can deliver the goods in Wing Chun and other MAs. Likely many of us who post here are old by comparison to the groups' norm, but those of us who keep at it seem to keep improving.

To start someone out in old age after they've neglected their bodies through inactivity, dissipation, and poor diet is likely to have good returns only if the student is emotionally ready to change their habits and devote themselves to overcoming age-related limits.

In Paul's example of a stiff oldster, he should remember that even if a student cannot twist themselves into a pretzel, intent is the key and "perfect" structure eludes even the best of us.

Another exeption that proves the rule, Jack Dempsey used to jog in New York's Central Park everyday in his 70s and 80s. When a reporter asked him if he was safe from muggers, he refrained from clobbering the idiot.

Regards,

[PaulH]

Hi John,

So far the strong ones that I know are almost always those who engage daily in vigorous activities. I'm hoping if I ever make it to the eighty, I can still kick some youngsters's butts. Just to see the surprised looks on their face make it worthwhile. =)

[anerlich]

The father of one of my instructors aged late 70's, was accosted in London by a couple of would-be and much younger muggers. My teacher's Dad had done Judo and boxing, but not WC like his son, for most of his life.

After an initial altercation, one of the young pups ran away after being hit with a walking stick, and the old guy chased the other into a public toilet where the kid barricaded himself in a cubicle and refused to come out until the cops arrived.

I think lifelong athleticism or training is more important than the particular vehicle used. If there were some magic method of power generation, surely it could be adapted to less extreme tasks than combat and old people would happily be lifting heavy objects, playing younger people's sports, etc. The frame (structure) and engine (muscular power) can be employed with maximum efficiency, but as they whither so too will the power output.

I think that science coming up with ways to delay or overcome aging and death is more feasible than magically increasing power somehow. Biology is more flexible than physical laws, at least at the Newtonian level.

I've thankfully only seen a few corpses, and none of them could hit hard.

[PaulH]

Most reasonable post from a very respectable elder! =)