Censorship

[EmptyCup]

Outside of the wing chun board, content is only moderated when needed as in when there is foul language or such, not when posters post their opinions. It seems like lately, any opinion that might be controversial is deleted or locked. That is not free speech. That is a dictatorship! Our opinions were not ungrounded considering the content of the original posts. We were merely providing our angle. Just because we happen to disagree shouldn't mean censorship...
This is a shame since this forum deals with issues regarding wing chun and the topic discussed is a main part of wing chun today. It gets brought up in kwoons, in magazines, in discussions such as these ones. We are all consenting adults here. Since you always say that this is 'our forum' shouldn't we have a right to talk about issues that concern us if we want to, as long as we abide by the rules? Could you imagine a world where you couldn't bring up certain topics in conversation because they are too controversial and opinions are too varied? No abortion, religion, politics, heck, even sports discussions!!! Where North America turns into China or the Middle East. This is what is happening here. We are being systematically silenced. The William Cheung issue is a valid one and concerns all Wing Chun practitioners. There's no reason why it can't be discussed...a little bit heated is ok...in the real world adults don't always remain unanimated when talking about their passions...this board should be no different. Politics need to be discussed sometimes. If the forum members didn’t want to discuss it, they wouldn’t have posted.

[CLOUD ONE]

You go on and on and on about you dislike for William Cheung. Just give it a rest.
We all get your point of view!!! Just don't drag it out.
They get boring with the same old cr@p!!!!
Just my opinion :D :D :D

[EmptyCup]

other people too...since this is such a big issue regarding wing chun, it is a valid topic. The William versus Emin fight topic got censored too, when that was just curious people who were ignorant of the politics involved, wanted to know what happened.

btw, cloud 1, I replied to m31's MESSAGE. It was a rebuttal, like in debates. I didn't just happen to jump into "I hate William Cheung" mode! It was refuting another's argument. No more, no less. Isn't that fair?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Empty Cup your posts, as well as others, was "censored" because it did nothing to further the art of Wing Chun. I realize that this is not always the most popular road but I believe that, in the long run, it is the most profitable. Of course, you and others are welcome to disagree. I always list my e-mail address and give the opportunity to discuss the matter. However, if you don't e-mail me then it is hard to discuss things, is'nt it?

This board is somewhat unique in some respects. People are welcome to come here and discuss the art of Wing Chun irregardless of lineage or approach. Sometimes people get a little out of hand and things get a little personal. Rather than allow things to degenerate into name calling I feel it is better to nip things in the bud.

I feel that lately, less has been deleted and moderation has actually slacked off. This is due partly to less time on my part as well as the fact that most people have conducted themselves in a mature manner.

I have always tried to go along with the majority even if it differs from my point of view. Still, going on about this person or that really serves no purpose. If you truly feel the need to discuss peronalities then I suggest you do it via e-mail. Let the rest of us who wish to discuss the art do so without being subjected to the myriad of politics and other less edifying material out there.

This board is different and I hope that it remains so. Name me one other board where people have come together and been able to discuss things in a civil manner, for the most part :) If you want an example of what this board could sink to then you only have to visit the VTAA Forum. Tell me, is that what you really want? It is always easier to support moderation or censorship when it does not hit so close to home. I would like to be fair and believe I have done so. I accept the fact that I am human and capable of mistakes. At the present time I do not feel I acted inappropriately. Of course, I also do not expect everyone to agree with me.

As always anyone wishing to discuss this matter can contact me via e-mail, hint ;)

sihing73@juno.com
dmcknight@rcn.com

Peace,

Dave

[EmptyCup]

I don't see how discussing it with you does anything? I was discussing it with the other members...

I keep hearing about the VTAA board. What's wrong with it? What's the url for it? I hear that many forum members here post there as well i.e. Whipping Hand, Roy, etc...

[Sihing73]

Hello Empty Cup,

Sorry you feel that there is little to no point in discusing anything with me. Still, you are welcome to your opinion.

You mentioned free speech. Tell me, at what point does the right of one give way to the rights of many? Kind of like the idea of yelling "Fire" in a crowded movie theater. If I recall correctly, were'nt you one who was advocating the censorship of Whipping Hand some time back?? Or was it different in that instance?

There is no point in our bandying back and forth in this medium. This board is for the discussion of the art of Wing Chun. If you wish to discuss peronal views then please do it, whether to me or others, via e-mail.

Peace,

Dave

[EmptyCup]

It's not that I feel there is no point in discussing anything with you. I meant that in this issue about Cheung I have nothing to discuss with you. I wanted to discuss it with m31...nothing against you but I have no point to make to you right?


I never posted when Whippy was up for being banned...and his case is different. His attutude and mine are like night and day. I do not go out of my way to aggrevate members, post half-baked answers to legit questions, or try to sound pseudo-knowledgeable-mysterious. I do not use biting sarcasm or jokes at the expense of others. In this case I was stating something. Nothing else. I fail to see your comparison to Whipping Hand...he does what he does on a consistent basis. This is the first and only time I have had an issue with the forum and even then I do not believe I have stepped out of line enough to be banned. You're not seeing it...

I understand where you are coming from but I do not understand your point:

"You mentioned free speech. Tell me, at what point does the right of one give way to the rights of many? Kind of like the idea of yelling "Fire" in a crowded movie theater. If I recall correctly, were'nt you one who was advocating the censorship of Whipping Hand some time back?? Or was it different in that instance?"

[dlew308]

That board is a joke. It's full of people who hide behind their computers using fake names and email addresses or none at all to post negative comments about everyone. It's a board used by very disgraceful people who seem to rather hate on people then learn Wing Chun.

http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum/

[Novox77]

I am a newbie when it comes to message forums in general, and my first experience with one was the VTAA site. Needless to say, I was sourly disappointed. What a bunch of 12 year olds. Well, let's hope they're not older, as their comments reflect the intellect of a pre-teen. I am very pleased with the posts I have read here at kungfuonline.com. I have to agree that the presence of moderators keeps forums like this from degenerating into forums like the VTAA site.

EmptyCup: I feel your frustration with the censorship, but let it slide this time. You've made your point (regarding William Cheung and the blind devotion of his to-dei) and if it's deemed unconstructive by a moderator, phrase your thoughts differently such that wing chun theory and technique is integrated into that thought. Best of both worlds, right? :)

[EmptyCup]

"I feel your frustration with the censorship, but let it slide this time. You've made your point (regarding William Cheung and the blind devotion of his to-dei) and if it's deemed unconstructive by a moderator, phrase your thoughts differently such that wing chun theory and technique is integrated into that thought. Best of both worlds, right?"

I've never seen you in the Wing Chun forum before?!?! your answer is very impressive...very diplomatic. You convey a good point without stepping on any toes. You should be a moderator too! :) I see your point...

[Novox77]

The way I see it, the unique families and lineages of wing chun haven't diverged that much, and this is why such political turmoils such as "which lineage is better" exist. While the political statements themselves may not be positive or productive, the simple fact that they exist is a testament to how much the different lineages have in common. After all, who would compare the value between 2 things if they had nothing in common?

The best thing an instructor can give a student is the principles and theory of wing chun. From that point on, it's up to the student to master it. From what I understand, those principles are in general agreed upon between the lineages. They are:

Don't fight the opponents force with force, simultaneous attack and defense with minimal amounts of movements or techniques, the best defense is offense, go forward, forward, forward.

If Grandmaster so-and-so is supremely good at applying these principles, more power to him. Can you, his student, apply these principles as well? What's the point of me praising my sifu or grandmaster of my lineage (or worse: putting down the grandmasters of other lineages) when my own wing chun needs work? Such persons aren't even worth responding to, as they are only conflicted with their own self-esteem.

[whippinghand]

What is it with you Canadians....? :rolleyes:

[EmptyCup]

har har :D

... arrrr!!!! Canadians are so stupid that they don't realize it says that under their usernames :eek:

[Rolling_Hand]

Is this a forum for a Canadian boxer rebellion?

[whippinghand]

90% of the posts using my name, are not written by me.

[EmptyCup]

I recall that's what Roy said too. So people start using your name after you started on this forum? Are all the posts on this forum yours? Since there might be another jerk getting people all ruffled up and letting you take all the blame ;)

Canadians got humour, no? heh. I'll check out that forum to see if it's really as bad as you all say...

[whippinghand]

It seems when someone has a beef with me, they start using my name to slander others on the VTAA.

On this forum I'm the top jerk, yes. However, Censored is vying for the title. (He doesn't stand a chance, though...)

[yenhoi]

EC:How on earth can you go on about free speach and stamping on your rights, and being silenced... blah blah blah.

This is a forum on the innernet.

Some people at KFO might be from place where the "right of free speach" is not considered a universal Human right.

Where do you come up with this dictatorship sh!t?

Are you a anti-troll?

strike!

[EmptyCup]

WH: what username do you go under in the VTAA forum then? So censored is vying now? Before there were a few tough contenders such as sunkuen...and roy...where the heck did they go?

yen: you sure you're not Canadian?
:)

[yenhoi]

I would slit my wrists and when that didnt work, I would shoot myself.

strike!

[EmptyCup]

You don't need to...I'm going to slit your neck and shoot you in the bunghole first...

[sunkuen]

I had to drop out of the race due to the belly laughter from reading your posts was giving me terrible cramps!!! Hows that? lol :D

[Nichiren]

I think the KFO forum is moderated just about right. Here are some good examples of what happens if you moderate to much or to little:

www.wtdefence.com (http://www.wtdefence.com)
www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum (http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum)

[whippinghand]

The same username as on this forum.

[EmptyCup]

Sunkuen - do I amuse you?!?! huh?!?! do I amuse you??? Am I here for your amusement?

WH - so how do people post as you there/ Are the usernames not exclusive? Or there are no user accounts?

[dlew308]

Go look and see. There's no accounts. You just post as anything you want to and don't need to leave an email, not like they'd leave a real address anyhow.

[[Censored]]

I appreciate your nomination, however I already hold that title on the Aikiweb boards, and I believe the bylaws preclude me from a dual appointment. :)

[whippinghand]

Perhaps we should take a poll to see who would win...

[[Censored]]

You've got my vote, cupcake. ;)

[whippinghand]

:eek:

[CerberusXXL]

Although I don't like strict control on what you can or can't post, I have to say that some moderation is necessary in order to keep things in order.

[whippinghand]

Well, I don't have a problem with Dave deleting Empty Cup's posts...

Keep up the good work Dave.

[whippinghand]

I know it's you.

[EmptyCup]

if you're talking about the VTAA forum you're an idiot. And know sh!t. It's also pretty stupid to accuse somebody because you can never know something like that for sure. I have better things to do than try to pretend to be you. Don't flatter yourself whipping hand. You're even more of a jerk than i previously thought possible. Grow up.

I challenge you openly on this forum. Why do i need to do what you're accusing me of? Stupid kid...

[EmptyCup]

enoough people hate you on this forum. Do you think they all did it too? Maybe if you stop acting like a moron nobody would do something like that...

and you had problems with dave deleting your messages before and challenged his moderator skills saying he was unfair and biased. You're a hypocrite as well as a troll...

[whippinghand]

Such a defensive reaction to a simple sentence...

[EmptyCup]

you really are a jerk. You accused me of something without any explanation and without any evidence. It is not merely a simple sentence but an accusation.

And to say that it was a complex reaction to your "simple" sentence, you are a big enough troll as it is without people having to troll using your username to make you look bad.

You're **** right I'm defensive. I don't like anybody falsely accusing me of things like that. You have no right.

[whippinghand]

Do you have back problems?

[Sihing73]

Hi Guys,

I was out of town and see that some things never change. This topic seems to have run its course so I am closing it. There is no point in EC and WH going on with each other. I would have thought by now you two would realize neither will change the others opinion. Anyhow, since this has degenerated into nothing more than personal attacks consider the subject closed.

Peace,

Dave