Advanced Sil Lim Tao

[Martin Foot]

I have recently been concentrating on reviewing the application of the Advanced Sil Lim Tao, & I’m finding the application to be essential for fighting in a front stance.
I was wondering how those who are giving this form in depth study, are getting on with it & what they are getting from it.


Martin Foot
Body Mind & Spirit Kung Fu

[This message was edited by Martin Foot on 11-01-01 at 11:29 AM.]

[chi-kwai]

:confused: i still have no idea what "advanced" sil nim tao is.

--
chi kwai

[Sharky]

u mean one footed?

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Wei Sui]

Probably refering to the Cheungs WC.
Same as SLT with large circular motions with the hands, and I beleive some stepping.

I don't train Cheungs WC so I don't know it's purposes.

*************************
Dai yut tow dai :)

[wingchunner]

I think this is a very good question. I think many people think SLT is a very basic form only for beginners. Personally, I think I could work on SLT only and not need the other forms [though CK does have some good energy work in it that I have found useful]. For me as a beginner, SLT was just another form (b/c I had studied other styles previously) designed to work the legs and teach basic techniques. Then, at a higher level, it forced me to work on proper technique and enegy while the legs were still burning. This is very mentally challenging. Since I have been in WC for a while now, I still find SLT to be very important in the development of my stance (continually developing a stronger root) while keeping my upper body relaxed to allow energy to cultivate. When I do this, it makes my legs work much more. Another aspect that I concentrate on is the connection my feet have with the ground. When I first started, because I was tense and had to pull my knees in, my connection with the ground wasn't so good because the outside of me feet were not connected as well to the ground. I can tell when I have a good connection to the ground now with my upper body completely relaxed. I feel a spiral or coil like energy in my legs. I still have much to work on. I continually feel like a beginner because I still learn from SLT.

Marty

Be true and loving.
http://wingchun.ereasons.net

[fa_jing]

I know this form, from my cheung style days. Could someone tell me the application of the circular arm swings at the end of the form? OR is this just exercise? -FJ

[Martin Foot]

The circular arm swings throughout the form, represent & are in application arm break positions/techniques.

Martin Foot
Body Mind & Spirit Kung Fu

[Chum Kil]

I know this form, but there are no large circular hand motions at all. The only large hand motions that I know of are out to the side where you step and basically flip your opponent. I like the form because it is the first time you are introduced to short range palm strike after huen sau. The ending is also a little different, where instead of gum sau and the other hand pulling to disengage a grab, you just huen sau. There is also a little section where you wu sau/tan sau/jut sau (palm up)/tan sau that is also added. I have been told that Sifu Cheung has changed this form over the years. Not sure which version I know.

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[Martin Foot]

Has no one else spent time exploreing this form?
Come on you TWC Guys, I thought you might have some interesting insights to offer

Martin Foot
Body Mind & Spirit Kung Fu

[marcelino31]

i practiced andvanced SLT 5 times today...it s a great form

[Martin Foot]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeees, and......

Martin Foot
Body Mind & Spirit Kung Fu

[CLOUD ONE]

Interesting name, who thought of that name?
What is 'advanced' about the SLT to the not so 'advanced' SLT.
Who is now the inheritor of your style of wing chun?
Why didn't sifu Derek Jones call it William Cheungs style?
It seems the forms and techniques are the same.
Did you go to William Cheung's seminar held in London a few months back.
Who was Derek's no1 student?

[Martin Foot]

It is Dereks System; he got to choose the name.

This is not a definitive answer, but The Advanced Sil Lim Tao dose have direct applications for the techniques in the Sil Lim Tao, & because it has these overt techniques one is encouraged to visualise the applications during this form. This encourages an understanding of emotional energy in the form; this is why we make a definition between Sil Lim Tao & advanced Sil Lim Tao.

All of those who train in Body Mind & Spirit Kung Fu are the inheritors of it.

Derek chose to rename his system because he believed that through his relentless fighting he had a certain amount of insight, he developed & then translated this insight into a series of San Sao techniques. We do have the same forms as the majority of Yip Man Based Wing Chun, & Derek did adopt the Advanced Sil Lim Tao from William, but because the San Sao is the fundamentals of our system, you will see differences in the forms (even in Advanced Sil Lim Tao) & applications of our students & TWC Guys.

No, I wasn't aware he had been in London.

As for who was Derek’s No1 student, well that's a matter of opinion.

Martin Foot
Body Mind & Spirit Kung Fu

[This message was edited by Martin Foot on 11-03-01 at 06:52 PM.]

[This message was edited by Martin Foot on 11-03-01 at 06:57 PM.]

[anerlich]

Martin Foot:

I think you are definitely onto something linking the Advanced SLT form with the forward stance.

My instructor has given me some insights into this, which due to his wishes I cannot discuss here, but let me ask:

What if you tried this form in front stances rather than neutral stances, with stepping and stance changes at appropriate points? What attributes would this develop that the other stepping forms do not?

I feel this form and TWC's cross arm chi sao develop similar skills and attributes that are not present - or, more correctly, not so emphasised - in Chum Kil and regular single or double arm chi sao.

For the benefit of other posters:

The most obvious (though not the only) difference between the normal and advanced SLT is that all the huen saos are done as a circling movement using shoulder, elbow and wrist, where the vanilla version circles only at the wrist. The hands end up moving on a circle about the width of the body. The "slow" part at the start incorporates this "big" huen sao with a following palm strike and exhalation. The fut sao section includes stepping, there is an additional tan/jut section, and the final "wipe-off" section includes huen saos after each wipe-off, which have varying applications, including those previously mentioned as well as grip disengagements and limb or neck manipulations.

If your WC substyle doesn't use or need an Advanced SLT, more power to you. There's no need to attack TWC for its different take on things. TWC marketing says it's better, maybe it's just different. There are many paths up the mountain. What right for you ain't necessarily right for someone else.

[CLOUD ONE]

Thanks for the reply.
Are you part of his first group of students or his second group?
I heard or saw that the only person now teaching Derek's system is Sifu Simon James, in a school sought of way. It is a pity that Derek died so early. He is a vary rare breed of Martial Artist.
His san shou theory is quite interesting.
Wouldn't that be like chi sao? or is it less constrictive?
Is it only you learn chi sao from the 5th grade?
It seems also that the mindset is different.
What grade are you if you don't mind me asking?
Do you still train with sifu Simon James or Phil?

[Martin Foot]

Abman,
I'm already on to training the form in a front stance; at the moment it seems to be raising interesting points about understanding the outers, & spatial awareness. If you would feel more comfortable discussing this privately please feel free to mail me direct. I think it will be a worthwhile conversation to have.

Cloud One,
I was training with Derek for the last 6 years of his life; I was one of the pallbearers at his funeral.
I train with a group at Shepherds Bush & Covent Garden London, lead by Steve Jones. Simons James has his own thing going on, & I recently heard that one of Phil's students, a Guy Called Richard Dewsbury is teaching classes in Chesterfield. I'm not aware what Phil is up to, I hope he is still teaching, and is doing well.
You are right; Chi Sao training begins at the 5th Grade. Once the student is comfortable with chi sao & has understanding of Tan, Man, Pak, Lap, & cow Sao Attacks & the counters, the student is then guided in a progressively more aggressive free sparing chi Sao to integrate the techniques & strategy of the San Sao exercises as well to take the emotional energy up several levels.
I'm 9th grade at the moment
Cloud One; how do you know about BMS, are you a friend of Dominic Bekes? I know he had aligned himself with William some time back.

Martin Foot
Body Mind & Spirit Kung Fu

[This message was edited by Martin Foot on 11-04-01 at 10:25 AM.]

[Martin Foot]

Cloud One
I believe that when you are asked a direct question it is considered good manners give some sort of reply, particularly as I respected your questions & took time to answer them even though they were a completely off topic.
My question to you is as above, "how do you know about BMS, are you a friend of Dominic Bekes" I'm curious how you know of Phil.
If you chose to disrespect me with ignorance, that's cool, as it makes a statement about you rather than being a statement by you.

Regards
Martin Foot
Body Mind & Spirit Kung Fu

[Phil Redmond]

Martin Foot says,
"The circular arm swings throughout the form, represent & are in application arm break positions/techniques."

The circular arm movements at the end of ASLT are Lau Saos which are used to counter an oncoming punch after getting out of an arm grab. Arm breaks don't come in to play until Chum Kiu. The Lau Sao movements are larger than the Huen Sao in order to get from the inside to the outside of an opponents arm.

Peace,

[Martin Foot]

Hi
I must apologise for any confusion I may have caused you over the of the above statement, of course you are correct in your comment on the application of what you call Lau Sao. What I believed to be the technique in original question though was the larger yeun sao that takes the opponents arm on to the outer, & which is at the end of each section of our ASLT & right at the very end of our form, the application of which is an arm break in our system. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts my Sifu Derek Jones, applied his own understanding to everything he was taught & adjusted it for his own outcomes, this is how we can share common forms & have subtle differences in application. I personally believe there is no definitive translation to the movement to these forms. I think they are just opening statements to a much larger conversation; the only limitation is the criteria one puts on ones movements & ones creativity with in that criteria.

I wonder if you would be so kind to share some of your insights into this form.

Regards
Martin Foot
Body Mind & Spirit Kung Fu

[This message was edited by Martin Foot on 11-07-01 at 02:22 AM.]

[anerlich]

Whatever you want to call that last move, it has more than one application.

I've found it useful for controlling the guy's head while appling the basic armbar from the guard, as a tactic for getting past the guy's legs when he has you in some variants of the open guard like spider, butterfly, or mixtures of the two, and for setting up the step over legbar after you've broken open the guys legs in a standing guard pass.

[Martin Foot]

Abman,
thanks for the food for thought, both your posts on this topic have been very interesting. As I said in my previous post, "I personally believe there is no definitive translation to the movement to these forms. I think they are just opening statements to a much larger conversation; the only limitation is the criteria one puts on ones movements & ones creativity with in that criteria".
I'm attempting to visualise the applications you've mentioned, but I'm having a little trouble as I'm not sure what the spider& butterfly guards are, (my ignorance of the technical terms, not your explanation) would you be so kind as to extend my understanding.
I'm looking at the double gum sao fut sao (bear hug escape) section at the moment, the basic applications step to parallel side, I was wondering if you've explored stepping to cross, I'm assuming with your BJJ experience that this section offers you a wealth of opportunities.

Cheers Mate

Martin Foot
Body Mind & Spirit Kung Fu.

[Bessho]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by P Redmond:
The Lau Sao movements are larger than the Huen Sao in order to get from the inside to the outside of an opponents arm.
Peace,[/quote]

phillip can you comment on why this is added to your version of the slt? most other schools i see don't do slt lau sao you mention. imo the lau sau in the video looks weak and relies on arm strength. cant garnsao and the fook-huen movements in the slt get you from in to out-side?

ken