Tired of it [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

lkfmdc

03-07-2005, 11:48 AM

Some "pearls of wisdom" (ie quotes to make you die from laughter)

-- "Shuai Chiao, Jijusu, Brazilian Jijusu, Judo. All these are external
martial art training. They don't have Tsai (following gravity)
training. When meeting internal martial artists,- such as Taichi,
Hsin Yi, Bagua, sacrifice throw will never work. I can guarantee
this" --

He can guarantee that these mystical internal stylists can't be thrown.... is he willing to back it up?

-- "going to ring to test the sacrifice throw is not a good idea is completely unnecessary." --

yes, it figures... :rolleyes:

arrogance is usually a great side kick for such attitudes

-- "my background is Chang style Taichi, Chen Style Taichi, Hsin Yi, Bagua, Shaolin and Shuai Chiao. I think I know Judo, jijusu, brazilian jijusu about what they do"--

So you are an expert on things you've never done, not even for a DAY? :rolleyes:

And this guy is a "master" :eek:

rogue

03-07-2005, 11:50 AM

Qi was mystical to the ancients.. today we know it as Bio-electrical energy.. Prove it. Hell, prove that Qi is anything. :rolleyes:

PangQuan

03-07-2005, 12:15 PM

No one can prove either side of this discussion, it is ridiculous to argue over that aspect. With our current state of technology and science, all either party can do is form theories and speculate what they would like to believe. So no one here is right, and no one is wrong. Theoretically speaking. In truth someone is right and someone is wrong, we just have no way of determining that at this point in time.

MonkeySlap Too

03-07-2005, 12:22 PM

Here's the rub:

Guys with real skill can not only demonstrate what they can do, they can show you how they acheived thier skill, even if they can't explain it well.

True great players aren't always great coaches. BUT - great players don't assume anything. They do theorize, but let reality be thier guide.

Within this context, I am weary of folks that 'act' like they are doing you a favor, give you a fortune cookie answer, then act offended when you call them on it!

It's unbeleivable!

MasterKiller, you have monkeyslapped the correct. I'm taking your advice. And Kung Lek - through my errant youth that was my solution. Now I know what senior students are for! :D

lkfmdc

03-07-2005, 12:31 PM

to those who try and wrap themselves in the flag of tradition, "tradition" in the "old days" was that people would show up to your school, and if you couldn't perform what you claimed, you wouldn't have a school much longer.....

MonkeySlap Too

03-07-2005, 12:47 PM

This is something that seems to be forgotten....

Fu-Pow

03-07-2005, 12:55 PM

KABLAAMEEE! (http://www.plumblossom.net/Testimonials/weiss.html)

SPJ

03-07-2005, 01:03 PM

Because M and M may rap.

Because Britney may sing hip hop.

Let us declare that kids play Beethoven and Bach do not know music.

Please show us the symphonie or you are not musicians. And your music is dead.

We are tired of it.

:D

Fu-Pow

03-07-2005, 01:03 PM

WHAMMO! (http://www.ssmma.com/videos/multiple_attackers.mov)

*************************

SPJ

03-07-2005, 01:07 PM

Qi is Qi.

Qi is not empty.

Qi is not force.

Therefore Qi is not empty force.

---

:p

Fu-Pow

03-07-2005, 01:15 PM

ABRACADABRA!! (http://members.iinet.net.au/~ftrust/yellowbamboolores.wmv)

red5angel

03-07-2005, 01:38 PM

Greetings..

Qi was mystical to the ancients.. today we know it as Bio-electrical energy..
Theoretically, from Quantum Field Throry, flying Qi balls can be conceptually tolerated.. only, i haven't seen any evidence supporting the current existence of same.
I have been personally subjected to ridiculously unexplainable healings.. yet, i remain healed.. i have been subjected to combat with persons so remarkably in tune with themselves and me, their opponent, as to have the appearance of mystical powers.. but, it was simply a profound understanding of body-alignment, interactive balance, and highly trained use of their bio-electrical energy..
It is neither mystical nor mundane.. it is the result of great discipline..
Be well..

bio-electrical energy, LOL! You need to take off your magnetic bracelets and do some reading on ACTUAL physics, including quantum field theory and so on.

LOL, you guys crack me up sometimes.....

No one can prove either side of this discussion, it is ridiculous to argue over that aspect. With our current state of technology and science, all either party can do is form theories and speculate what they would like to believe. So no one here is right, and no one is wrong. Theoretically speaking. In truth someone is right and someone is wrong, we just have no way of determining that at this point in time.

I completely disagree. Qi, is supposed to be something that affects every aspect of your life, if that is the case it should be measurable, but it's not. Why? You might ask? Because there's no fukking such thing.
Make all the internet claims about the mysterious and miraculous experiences you want. I've been sick for the last two weeks and I've suddenly "got better". This past summer I sprained my ankle, contrary to popular opinion I went running on it a day or two later anyway, it went away. I wasn't magically healed, it just turns out the body, in very explainable and verifiable ways, is capable of fixing some of it's own problems.
I too have been in combat with some pretty remarkable people. What they did is easily explained, they trained, dailly, for years, and consistantly, always striving to improve. That's it, no magical energy is required to explain it, no mystical way of living.
You guys need to get out of the dark ages and realize Qi, exists about as much as Dragons, chimera and demons.

Fu-Pow

03-07-2005, 01:41 PM

SCOOBEE DOOBEE!! (http://www.buqi.net/gb/1/empty_force.html)

David Jamieson

03-07-2005, 05:59 PM

fu, the myltiple attackers movie was fukkin hilarious.

2 drops of pee came out I was actually laughing that hard.

reminded of teh episode of seinfeld where Kramer takes a Karate class. :D

FngSaiYuk

03-07-2005, 07:18 PM

2 drops of pee came out I was actually laughing that hard.

Whoa, u gots some kinda prob there, buddy...

Ludeviews

03-08-2005, 06:10 AM

Howdy All,

I'm not gonna pretend to try and decide if something exists or not without more knowledge on the subject but....

whether qi exists or not, I find it useful to visualise this energy when training and hitting the bag. I find it helps focus the power.

Thanks All

TaiChiBob

03-08-2005, 06:18 AM

Greetings..

It has risen to the level of comical.. the degree of fear, and yes i say fear, that so many of you have of a simple word.. that word is Qi.. you hear/see it, then like a group of juiced-up apes start screaming and waving your arms, wildly beating your chests.. get over it..

Qi is simply a word, a word with a unique history, a word whose meaning should be allowed to evolve with our understanding.. at one time it had many mystical attachments.. now, it is much more understood.. except, of course, to those that fear it.. it is bio-electrical energy, electrical impulses that animate our bodies.. you know, you know you know.. but you think its way too cool to beat down a word, makes you look tough.. well, that's your loss.. because until you decide to actually understand the machine you call a body, your training and health will suffer..

Qi is part of our CMA history, its mystical past is largely overlooked in favor of solid science.. we can evolve its meaning, with our new understandings.. or discard it out of fear and the need to appear tough.. (ie: i don't need no stinkin' Chee, man...)

Qi Balls? i haven't seen 'em, i haven't seen any evidence of them.. i don't think its likely that i will.. but, i didn't think the US could possibly re-elect that Keebler Elf, either, so.. i'll leave a small window of possibility open.. who knows.. Qi healing, now there i have seen and experienced first hand events consistent with the description of the healer's technique.. and, they used that terrible word, Qi.. no, it wasn't magic, it was training and discipline that permitted the healer to manipulate bio-electrical energies beneficially... same basic principle as accupuncture.. no big deal, unless of course, it frightens someone or challenges their ability to comprehend..

Okay, there you have it.. enough ammunition to feed your fears and raging posts for another 3 pages or so.. and, red5angel, i didn't realize you were back in from recess, yet.. do take care when questioning credentials, you've shown no evidence beyond middle-school mentallity, yourself.. don't suggest that i "do some reading".. explain where i am flawed in my assertions, with references.. oh, bio-electrical energy is, and has been measured, its science..

Be well

David Jamieson

03-08-2005, 06:25 AM

While I think talk of Qi is trapsing off into the woods, I think the problem is mostly in definitions and arguments about those definitions as well as many who would attach mystical rubbish such as no touch strike and what not to it.

Having said that, if you are alive, then you have your proof of Qi.
It's your breath, but notr just the air you breath, it's your blood but not just the red and white cells, it's the spark of synaptic response cutting engrams into your brain daily, it is the life essence itself. Because it is not one thing, and some people have a tendency to only understand such things from a terminological standpoint, they may tend to disbelieve it at all.

But in reality, it is as hard to describe as life itself. What is life? If you answer that, you answer what is Qi.

Now back to the case in point, I'm not so much tired of performance wushu trying to pass itself off as real applicable kungfu martial art ktfo stuff. I'm not so angry that people get sidetracked with lineage discussion and lose site of real value in what they ar doing, I'm not so tired of western born white boys walking around in 19th Chinese court robes consumed with yellow fever so much as I am tired of waiting.

I am tired of waiting for people who do have kungfu to step up and start chewing gum if ya get my inference.

Get out there, do your thing, toot your horn and ring that bell. THe more people that do that, the more the winds will change and the more likely it will be that the gophers will not pop there head up and see the coast is clear for their particular brands of nonsense.

Sometimes the fastest way to learn something and understand is the shaking of teh conciousness. In Ch'an it would be a cane across your back as you slouched or it could even be your own failure and your admission of it.

It's not such a long road though. Just refuse to get caught in the trap and be true to what you do.

peas

Becca

03-08-2005, 06:43 AM

Prove it. Hell, prove that Qi is anything. :rolleyes:
You know those little impulses of energy your nerves create and transfer that send messages to the muscles? That is bio-electricity. You know when a muscle twitches for no real reason? This is what is known as a mis-fire of the nervious system. You know when you injure a muscle group and you develope a spasm? This is what happens when the nerve is pinched and cannot conduct it's messages efficiantly. This is also known to people who have a broad mind, as a chi blockage. Ever notice how muscle relaxers don't really work too well to get rid of spasms, but a good rub down my a massage theripist does?...

... A rose by any other name...

... Think about it. You have all the eveidence right in front of you nose but are too busy looking down it to see what is right in front
;)

Ray Pina

03-08-2005, 07:02 AM

A two dimensional figure is trapped in the box that surrounds him.....

How to explain our reality to a goldfish?

How to explain extraordinary things to the ordinary nonbeliever?

Brad

03-08-2005, 07:06 AM

Or you could take matters into your own hands and not wait around for someone to prove your point for you ;) Can't do it yourself? Find someone you think is really good an representative of trad. kungfu and help them be successful. Get involved, don't ride someone elses coat tails. Lots of good kungfu people have been stepping up and proving themselves in full contact fighting... it's not their fault certain segments of the traditional community ignore them or write them off as nothing more than "kickboxers" or not real kungfu. There's plenty of chances to support real kungfu/wushu fighters. The traditional community is wierd. As soon as someone does step up and prove they have real applicable skill, there's five guys waiting behind him to tear them down and disassociate the community from them.

But like you said, people just have to keep going out there and doing their own thing. I think the less kungfu people worry about fitting in with their little cliques, the more honest they'll be with themselves, and the better their training will be.

TaiChiBob

03-08-2005, 07:32 AM

Greetings..

The problem is in the unrealistic expectation that a single system is the end-all-be-all of self-defense.. or that even a generic system, like Karate, or Kung Fu, or BJJ, or, or, or.. it doesn't need to be the single best system out there, it only needs to be better than the guy that is actually trying to take you down.. sort of like , "i don't need to be faster than the lion, only faster than someone else"..

It is reasonable to expect that a KungFu trained fighter can hold his/her own in certain situations.. and i would like to think that certain Kung Fu fighters that train also to grapple, to use other style's strong points, like Muay Thai elbow and shin work, etc.. would honor their Kung Fu training.. too many jump into MMA and think it's cool to put down the foundation training they picked up in other arts.. most people i know in MMA have backgrounds in other, more traditional, styles.. But, the art of empty-hand combat is evolving, stay locked up in a tradition and you will stagnate.. respect your tradition and enhance its effectiveness with the necessary tools to meet the challenges of today's evolving fight game..

Be well..

red5angel

03-08-2005, 07:53 AM

David Jamieson

03-08-2005, 08:14 AM

Becca

03-08-2005, 08:15 AM

LOL! Afraid of Qi, that's a new one.

It turns out that just because one does not believe in a thing, does not mean he is afraid of a thing. You can manipulate the meaning of the word all you want but that doesn't make it any more real.
Just because you don't believe in the same thing as another does not meen you are right. :rolleyes:

Just because you have never seen something doesn't meen it doesn't exist.

Just because you refuse to look at something with anything but ridicule and a narrow mind does not make it less so...

You remind me of my 3 year-old son. "Mommy, I can't do it!"

"You meen you refuse to do it. You most certainly can."

"Fine. I don't want to do it."

"That doesn't change the fact that you have to, though..."

hmmmm... Yup. that definantly sound like most of the arguments around here. From both sides. Can't we just agree that we are never going to agree? If we all agreed, there would be no groth to our society or race... :confused: :(

MasterKiller

03-08-2005, 08:16 AM

*MonkeySlap*

SevenStar

03-08-2005, 08:20 AM

TaiChiBob

03-08-2005, 08:25 AM

Greetings..

red5angel: To be exact, the statement asserts a fear of a "word", not its meaning.. which, by the way eludes you as well.. and, what's with this Helen stuff, how embarassing..

You can manipulate the meaning of the word all you want but that doesn't make it any more real. Likewise, you can be presented with reality all day long and still reject it.. but it's no less real.. Truth doesn't need belief to make it true, fire is hot believe it or not..

Be well..

red5angel

03-08-2005, 08:25 AM

I'm talking about Taichibob's claim as 7* posted it. As usuall there is no well founded reasoning of what Qi is, and as usual it comes down to some mystical energy that you have to "believe" or some such garbage. this time around it's being rationalized as "bio-electricity" with a few extras :rolleyes:

red5angel

03-08-2005, 08:33 AM

Likewise, you can be presented with reality all day long and still reject it.. but it's no less real.. Truth doesn't need belief to make it true, fire is hot believe it or not..

I don't ever, ever ever ever ever want to hear this excuse come from you Qi guys again. It's weak and dismissal and allows you to go along your merry way misleading people as to what the human body is capable of. If you can't PROVE it without referring to "mysterious" and "unexplainable" effects it ain't gonna fly. that's the point, while everyone else can point at the basics as being sound biomechanical concepts, the Qi guys want to take it even further and try to explain this mystical crap that the ancient chinese - people I'll remind you AGAIN, had no fukking clue how the body really worked - professed to belive in. Now you've all been indoctrinated into believing that there's something else out there that you can attain, the human search for power beyond the mundane.
Get over it guys, you can't prove it, because it DOESN'T EXIST. Try manipulating the word to mean what you want, use it to slam together several already well defined categories of science and throw in a few mystical sets of forms if you want, you still can't prove "Qi" whatever you want to call it exists.
If you want to argue semantics, then move along with the rest of the world and use terms that make some fukking sense and are well defined. This isn't about fear, close mindedness or the willingness to disbelief, this is simple fukking common sense.
I will also not engage in a discussion of religion vs science or the mystical vs science. Science, is a system for proving or disproving, a way to explore the universe around us, it's not a way of life or a philisophical system so let's try to get past that grade school level argument about what's better, religion and science are no where in the same category.

TaiChiBob

03-08-2005, 08:39 AM

Greetings..

As usuall there is no well founded reasoning of what Qi is, and as usual it comes down to some mystical energy that you have to "believe" or some such garbage. this time around it's being rationalized as "bio-electricity" with a few extras
Okay, what is it about bio-electricity that you don't understand, red5angel.. its plain old hard science.. now, quit pickin' your nose and pay attention.. Qi is a word that has largely lost its mystical attachments except for a few people like yourself who find some benefit in using it to annoy others who have moved on with their consciousness.. you see, red5angel, most of us understand the science and can converse in a normal manner.. it is YOU talking about "mystical energy" while most of the rest are over it..

Be well..

David Jamieson

03-08-2005, 08:39 AM

ok. I see.

But, what about the fact that you live and breath? What is that?
Qi literally translates as Breath. But by breath, in TCM (medicine) is not just the act of breathing and is more than just oxygen and other gases we consume to be alive.

It is more the entire process of taking in the breath and transforming it withinthe body and expelling the waste. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that process and I also understand that western and eastern mediacl sciences have pretty concise desciptions and definitions for the mechanics of why we stay alive, but not for life itself.

should we be nihilistic and say that everything does not exist because it cannot be explained with verbiage? I personally think that stance is not very useful for making progress.

anologously, I will take from the Tao te ching.

-We cannot call it 'void', nor can we call it 'not void', but for the purpose of pointing it out, we shall call it 'void' -

This can be applied to Qi, life or any number of things that we need to define in order to understand with our auto-dualism brains in action. :)

red5angel

03-08-2005, 08:51 AM

But, what about the fact that you live and breath? What is that?

What do you mean what is that? do we need to get into a detailed discussion on the respiratory system? Or how life came to be?

Qi literally translates as Breath

I've heard several explanations for what it translates to be and what it is supposed to mean. For some it literally means air, or to breathe air, for other it is the spark of life. The former is just a use for a basic human requirement, the latter enters into the religious realm.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about that process and I also understand that western and eastern mediacl sciences have pretty concise desciptions and definitions for the mechanics of why we stay alive, but not for life itself.

uh, apparently my western sciences are different from yours? This discussion would take too long to have over the internet so I'm going to toss out some key words here; DNA, Evolution, Mutation, atomic and molecular bonding.

should we be nihilistic and say that everything does not exist because it cannot be explained with verbiage? I personally think that stance is not very useful for making progress.

I'm not saying that. What I AM saying is that sometimes you need to leave the bonds of your ancestors behind so that you can be allowed to progress. I'm saying that Qi is an outdated explanation of things we can now explain more concisely and that we have a pretty good handle on. Believing in Qi might seem to be open minded, but I argue that it is actually often a close minded way of looking at things.

TaiChiBob

03-08-2005, 08:52 AM

Greetings..

Just once, i'm going to do this for fun.. red5angel:

If you want to argue semantics, then move along with the rest of the world and use terms that make some fukking sense and are well defined. Now, here we have someone asking us to use terms that make some "fukking" sense and are well defined.. does anyone else see the irony in this..

Be well..

FngSaiYuk

03-08-2005, 08:56 AM

Red5, and many others who tend to want to blast away at others beliefs-

What's all the fuss w/trying to mess around w/others' belief systems? If something 'works' for someone and doesn't harm others (other than perhaps getting on their nerves when they hear of said something), what's the big deal? The term Qi has been used for a looooooong time and the concept has been used effectively in real the real world. There's no need to scientifically break down the concept. It's too general a term in the first place.

Anyways, it's like various groups trying to convince others that whatever is working for them is totally wrong. If it's working, then why spend the energy trying to convince them otherwise. I don't need to know exactly how my car works to drive it. Likewise, I don't bother trying to correct and edumacate someone if they're using the wrong terms when describing their computer problems to me (no matter how much it irritates me, and it does). If it irritated me THAT much, I'll just avoid it 'cuz there's no harm otherwise.

Anyways, if someone is going all Qi this, Qi that, and is totally taking the idea beyond it's proper use, by all means take your stab at edumacatin' them - but if they won't budge, why bother w/the energy expenditure? Point them out to someone who really knows this concepts use whether the term bugs you or not.

Anyways, this relates in general to the attack of others viewpoints in general. If there's no real harm other than irritating your own sensibilities due to your own viewpoint, just turn away. Otherwise you're just bein' an ass.

red5angel

03-08-2005, 09:01 AM

MasterKiller

03-08-2005, 09:03 AM

Why do you care if CMA is dying? You're not a CMA guy.

TaiChiBob

03-08-2005, 09:12 AM

Greetings..

keep trying bob, as usual misdirection and obfuscation are your only safe harbors. No, Red.. i won't keep trying.. i have wasted way too much time already, regardless of however amusing you can be.. the point is this, you have no concept of the point you are trying to make.. it's humorous, but sad.. that you have time to actually think about the words you type and still find "fukking" to be useful in conversation sums up the whole issue.. the only "misdirection and obfuscation" was in your understanding of the points to begin with.. and, it was self-imposed.

Be well..

red5angel

03-08-2005, 09:12 AM

Why do you care if CMA is dying? You're not a CMA guy.

how many times do we have to have this conversation MK? I used to be, I got out of it for a lot of reasons, one of which is because it's dying out. It's possible that once I'm incapable of doing capoeira to my satisfaction I may go back to study something else, possibly CMA.

red5angel

03-08-2005, 09:14 AM

Greetings..

No, Red.. i won't keep trying.. i have wasted way too much time already, regardless of however amusing you can be.. the point is this, you have no concept of the point you are trying to make.. it's humorous, but sad.. that you have time to actually think about the words you type and still find "fukking" to be useful in conversation sums up the whole issue.. the only "misdirection and obfuscation" was in your understanding of the points to begin with.. and, it was self-imposed.

Be well..

blah blah blah Bob, you can't handle the heat then get out of the kitchen. I think you and Earthdragon would get along marvelously. the two of you could make grandiose claims about Qi, fail to support them with any substance, then get upset and refuse to argue about it any more.

FngSaiYuk

03-08-2005, 09:15 AM

the fuss is that some beliefs are distructive and misleading.

how many people out there are fooling themselves with the no touch knockout crap?
How many wanna be ninjas do we have floating around waiting to pluck the money from your wallet.
Kungfu is dying because it is failing to adapt to the modern world and the persistant belief in wuackery like Qi is a part of that failure to adapt.

keep trying bob, as usual misdirection and obfuscation are your only safe harbors.

I would put those people in the group of taking the concepts beyond their intended purpose. So far I haven't seen any posts in this thread advocating no touch knockouts, projected chi balls, etc. Like it or not, a LOT of martial training involve qi like concepts.

Here's an analogy that can be understood from an american viewpoint - there are some people that take their christian religion to a very extreme point, basically pushing for an armageddon so they can 'meet their maker'. You wouldn't blast the whole christian religion because of these few. These few need help, but not at the cost of ****ing off others who have the same base belief systems just not taken to an extreme that really is beyond the intent and purpose of the belief.

Now I don't agree with TaiChiBob's concept of Qi, it's a lot more amorphous than something as specific as bioelectricity. But his use of Qi is in line with the intended purpose of the concept. He's not telling you that if you develop your Qi enough you can shoot haddokken's or kamehameha people.

So basically it appears to me that you're lashing out at others only because you've had experience in the past with people who took the basic concept far beyond it's practical purpose.

This is of course, purely observations from this thread alone, I haven't seen other threads where this subject has been brought up where any of those who use the Qi concept here have talked about the more unlikely potential of Qi by their definition.

red5angel

03-08-2005, 09:19 AM

would put those people in the group of taking the concepts beyond their intended purpose. So far I haven't seen any posts in this thread advocating no touch knockouts, projected chi balls, etc. Like it or not, a LOT of martial training involve qi like concepts.

not openly, but the more median Qi believers will make claims of extended life, better martial skill and unexplainable healings.

So basically it appears to me that you're lashing out at others only because you've had experience in the past with people who took the basic concept far beyond it's practical purpose.

It's lashing out at unreasoning and ill gotten logic. This argument has been gone over on this forum before and it's always the same people claiming the same things and unable to offer ANY bit of solid proof. Then they backpedal (there was sort of a group backpedal about a year or so ago) and claim that "Qi" somehow just explains "life" whatever the fukk that means.

Ray Pina

03-08-2005, 09:23 AM

I used to think Chi sounded plausible... I now know that it is real and take very good care to manage it.

I also know some very talented fighters .... they've never competed, never even think of coming to sites like this never mind posting some BS -- they don't talk about it.

View it like a very hot girl. She doesn't have to walk down the street naked to impress you .... she knows she's hot, she's getting hit on left and right. She saves her good stuff for the right time.

I highly respect the competitive fighter, but we are not boxers or wrestlers ... we are martial artists. Our stuff can be taken into the ring, but first and foremost its kill or be killed.

Since I experienced some progress and have been looking for testing, I have found that there is a group of martial artists that won't play unless this type of gear is used, or no elbows, or no cranking this or cranking that. Is this much different than TKD saying don't punch my head or capture my kick?

Fighting with 10 oz and fighting with skin is different. For one, the weapon coming at you is smaller, harder to manage. Getting kicked with sneakers is different than bare feet, etc., etc.

"Judge not, for you judge yourself." ---- Bob Marley.

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 09:38 AM

afraid of Chi? Dear lord :rolleyes: Yeah, I'm as afraid of Chi as I am of the easter bunny..... bite the ears off and there's no thrill left...

I must have mis-read the screen name, I now clearly say he is TaiChiBoob....

Accupuntcure clearly works, so you might say that Chi and meridians are "real" but what that has to do with fighting and throwing is another issue entirely...

Again, I'm still waiting for all these extremely skilled internal death machines to show up, and it's been a LONG WAIT :rolleyes:

TaiChiBob

03-08-2005, 09:54 AM

Greetings..

Accupuntcure clearly works, so you might say that Chi and meridians are "real" but what that has to do with fighting and throwing is another issue entirely... LOL, if you can't make the connection.. well, on your knees, sissy.. the "extremely skilled internal death machines" are right behind you..

Please don't demonstrate a lack of common sense comparable to R5A.. its really not very becoming..

Be well..

ShaolinTiger00

03-08-2005, 09:54 AM

Greetings..

Qi Balls? i haven't seen 'em,

And not a single Mom joke.. you guys are so lame!

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 09:59 AM

dear lord, you really are a geek aren't you?

I've been in the Wu Lin going on 28 years now, I still haven't seen any "internal fighter" that demonstrated anything other than good condioning, proper technique and structural alignment

Which "external fighters" all do as well...

The only people who believe in "internal" crap as it relates to fighting are those who can't fight and want to beleive that any day now, they'll summon up just enough chi to change all that....

One of those guys is named TaiChiBob apparently :rolleyes:

red5angel

03-08-2005, 10:01 AM

you better be careful ross, bob is sending out negative Qi waves as we speak and we'll both be dead by noon, or something.

David Jamieson

03-08-2005, 10:09 AM

I knew this thread would trapse off into the woods. LOL

Well, let's try not to be hating on each other. Leave that to me,Merry, red, mk, lkfdmc, ... and uh, holy sh.it, there is a lot of negativity on these boards these days.

Man, i think Ill have a beer and give some thought to continuing my discourse with some of you guys seeing as, it is becoming a waste of time for me.

In short, I'll believe what I believe, and not believe what I choose not too. My hands are gonna be open for a few years yet barring my untimely death and so, I'll leave it at that.

talk is cheap, ...wait a second, I think that was the very first thing I said in this thread. Full circle! I get a peanut!

peace

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 10:09 AM

like I said, once I bite the ears off, the thrill is gone.....

TaiChiBob

03-08-2005, 10:58 AM

Greetings..

lkfmdc: Nope, i'm not one of those guys.. I've summoned up more than enough to handle any problems in my life.. you really should be careful with ASSumptions..

R5A.. are you serious.. did you know Captain Kangaroo is dead!!!! (that should occupy him for a while, grief stricken and tugging on lkfmdc's skirt)

Be well..

Ford Prefect

03-08-2005, 11:23 AM

Tai Chi Bob,

Can you supply any scientific evidence and refernces to scientific studies that have cross- compared bio-electricity with a qi qong master's qi manipulating techniques? If you state that qi is bio-electricity with such certainty and belittle those that don't buy it, then I assume there is a large amount of research in the field and concrete evidence supporting your conclusions.

MonkeySlap Too

03-08-2005, 11:40 AM

Back to topic:

This was not meant to be a 'qi' debate. Which is a waste of time.

red- I sympathize - those charlatans are very annoying.

IKFMDC - I'm still waiting for that chi-master to show too. I've seen a lot of very effective skills in IMA, but these guys tend to be the exception...

What I'm tired of is the arogance of teachers who say ridiculous things and are then p!ssed when called on it.

Heck, it is my seniors DUTY to f@ck with me, to help me stay on my game. But then, I don't claim to be an invincible 'master' so there's not so much ego invested in it.

There is some really GREAT stuff in CMA. But the whole 'man behind the curtain' secrecy thing has allowed a great many charlatans to proliferate.

I'm not living in a swordsman novel, and when I see teachers who are, I think of trekkies, not 'ooh that's cool.'

Ralphie

03-08-2005, 11:48 AM

The first time I felt qi in my hand was when I was about 13. It only lasted about 30 seconds, but may have been less. I practiced qi cultivation for years, and believe I have "mastered" it since.

Ray Pina

03-08-2005, 12:00 PM

That's where I felt it first too. I'm just becoming a little familiar with things now, straightened out my back, ect., etc.

My teacher NEVER talks about hurting someone with chi and makes fun of guys who say they use chi for this or that .... cut all the muscle tendons or shoot a needle to numb the muscles, the chi won't move the musculature.

But cultivating the chi will promote health (i've lost weight and people keep saying I look different, asking if I did something) and when you combine it with the mind it does have a fighting benefit .... maybe like a little bubble wrap. When I first started training with my teacher I saw him allowing someone to kick him full power in the legs .... I think this was Count at a tournament a few years ago. I now understand what was happening there.

As for internal masters fighting, I doubt you'll see it. You fight when you don't know. That's your ego wanting to see. But you don't pick a fight with the little kid next door. I can only talk about my master, but he quite looks down on a lot that's going on in MA today .... and he's been involved in the Wu Lin for .......

Anyway, I feel it's my generations responsibility to bring this stuff out. When I get it all right, when I can manage it all I will persue a MMA fighting career. Until then though, I feel I have learned enough to at least keep me safe in a free style testing environment. Extrenal training can provide this confidence .... but in my case it was internal. I didn't feel this way or have this training before.

TaiChiBob

03-08-2005, 12:02 PM

Greetings..

Ford Prefect: No, not specifically as you have stated the question relative to a QiGong Master.. but, to my own satisfaction and to the satisfaction of the likes of lkfmdc (ie: "Accupuntcure clearly works, so you might say that Chi and meridians are "real" ).. there is a common realization that there are forces at work in the human experience that cannot be fully explained and produce results similar to Qi claims.. Now, i don't buy the mystical connection as its presented here.. but, i easily see the connection between the miracle of "life" and an ancient culture's attributing mystical qualities to it.. Qi, as ridiculed here, has sufficient similarities to a well trained accupuncturist who happens to be a gifted martial artist and internal stylist, that the notion cannot be dismissed off-hand as a potential source for Qi fables.. What my assertion is, and has been all along, is that anyone can cultivate superior health habits, train in a pragmatic martial art, and develop an intense depth of understanding of the elements of Chinese ancient medical knowledge and demonstrate what, to most people, would border on mystical.. and, to call it Qi shouldn't get so many people's panties in a wad..

Considering i answered your question straightforwardly, Ford.. a return question is fair.. is it possible that conditions like adreneline rushes, self hypnosis, pressure point/accupuncture effects, altered states of consciousness, etc... viewed by ancient peoples could satisfy a large percentage of the claims of Qi? and, as a follow-up.. does that necessarily invalidate the concept of Qi..

On a sidenote, Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's recent books have a very simple and easily comprehendable description of Qi and Qi forces/results.. and, no, it's not "magic", just good science..

Be well..

MonkeySlap Too

03-08-2005, 12:08 PM

"As for internal masters fighting, I doubt you'll see it. You fight when you don't know. "

Please, spare me the pseudo-zen. The lessons on controlling your ego and avoiding violence have nothing to do with legitimately testing to see if things work.

This should be rewritten as "I doubt you'll see it, because they don't know how to fight."

I'm not trying to upset egos here - and there are some excellent IMA players out there. You know what they suggest you do to get good? Fight.

Man, I hate to bring up Bruce Lee, but who do you think the better swimmer is? The guy who theorizes about it but has never been in the water, or the guy who swims regularly.

Sure you can learn a few things without free fighting, but you will be limited.

I think it is pretty funny that someone would refer to trained fighters as children. This is the typical arrogance I speak of. Tired of it.

Why are so many CMA guys living in swordsman novels? From now on I think the uniform should be star fleet red t-shirts. Cause those are the guys that always get killed in a fight.

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 12:11 PM

TaiChiBob,

If you are ever in NYC, we can do a scientific experiment. You can see if you've accumulated enough Chi that I can't take you down. I'll be happy to agree to your use of Chi in ANY MANIFESTATION to stop me. You can use it to attack my vital areas, you can Dian Hsu/Dim Mak all you want..... but once you bite the ears off the bunny, all the mystique is gone

MasterKiller

03-08-2005, 12:17 PM

Why are so many CMA guys living in swordsman novels? From know on I think the uniform should be star fleet red t-shirts. Cause those are the guys that always get killed in a fight.

LOL

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

Ford Prefect

03-08-2005, 12:23 PM

Greetings..

Ford Prefect: No, not specifically as you have stated the question relative to a QiGong Master.. but, to my own satisfaction and to the satisfaction of the likes of lkfmdc (ie: "Accupuntcure clearly works, so you might say that Chi and meridians are "real" ).. there is a common realization that there are forces at work in the human experience that cannot be fully explained and produce results similar to Qi claims.. Now, i don't buy the mystical connection as its presented here.. but, i easily see the connection between the miracle of "life" and an ancient culture's attributing mystical qualities to it.. Qi, as ridiculed here, ...

I never said Qi was not real, so I'd appreciate if you don't put words into my mouth. I've practiced qi qong consistently and most definately have felt something. I've also experienced accupuncture and accupressure message. They seem to work. WHAT they work is the question as is excatly what I've experienced. Am I open to existence of qi or more specifically am I open to the fact that there are phenomena that are currently unexplainable by science. I sure am.

You stated with certainty that qi was bio-electricity; a theory that has no scientific validation. It would be akin to me saying qi was gravity, and saying qi doesn't exist then that means neither does gravity. And then belittleing people who don't share the sentiment. I was just calling you on it.

You saying qi existing is every bit as valid as somebody saying it doesn't since there is no definitive proof, and for that matter, not much scientific study in that area. Right now you are using qi as an explanation to various things you subjectively experience and other phenomena. This may very well be explained differently from a scientific POV in the future. Kind of like ancients believing the sun is warm because the sun god is blessing you with life rather than the intracacies of solar radiation... If you want to label it as "qi" then more power to you. Just lay off on making grandoise scientific claims that have zero validation.

BTW, I've met Yang Jwing-Ming multiple times and attended a few of his seminars since his main school in about 15 miles from my appartment. A good guy with simple and understandable explanations of qi for sure. Is he right? That remains to be seen.

Fu-Pow

03-08-2005, 12:40 PM

Here's the problem:

Qi has a subjective as well as objective component to it.

You can study the objective components scientifically but Qi is as much of a subjective reality as it is an objective reality. It is as much a "feeling" as it is a biological fact.

I believe that Qi "exists" in the "interphase" between objectively measurable biology and subjective perception.

What is that interphase? We've only recently begun to study the connection between mind and body in the West. In the East they've been studying it for a very long time.

What is the placebo effect, if not the mind acting on the body.

How can your mind (ie the content of your thoughts) manifest itself in the objective reality of body? It shouldn't be able to happen if they are separate things.

Is an objectively measurable scientific reality the only one that exists?

Is that what people like Red5 really believe?

cam

03-08-2005, 12:48 PM

What is Qi? Who knows, usually you get some esoteric answer that only takes you further away from the question and all you get is frustration. I think the better question is, "If Qi exists how will it manifest in my body?"
When I started taijquan I was repeatedly told a number of things: relax, all movement initiates in the dan dien, when one part moves ,all parts move, relax, relax and relax some more but don't get limp!!!!
So for the last 2 yrs. I've been working with that in mind. Lately I've been having a small measure of success, when I practise and I'm relaxed I have noticed that sometimesI can feel the flow of energy up my feet and travelling up through my hands, left foot to right hand, right foot to left hand. Now I don't mean lightning bolts or anything but a clear sensation of something, Qi perhaps or perhaps jing. I do know that it is a real sensation brought on by the training methods found in taijiquan, I imagine other IMA share a similar training method as do EMA but to a lesser extent. Does any of this matter, only if you want it to, if you are so insecure and get so bent out of shape when someone mentions Qi may I suggest a therapist, otherwise just get on with your training and let the children argue.

SevenStar

03-08-2005, 12:52 PM

I think it is pretty funny that someone would refer to trained fighters as children. This is the typical arrogance I speak of. Tired of it.

Why are so many CMA guys living in swordsman novels? From now on I think the uniform should be star fleet red t-shirts. Cause those are the guys that always get killed in a fight.

nostalgia. Just like people trapped in the "I'm training to be a warrior" fantasy.

Ray Pina

03-08-2005, 12:54 PM

"As for internal masters fighting, I doubt you'll see it. You fight when you don't know. "

This should be rewritten as "I doubt you'll see it, because they don't know how to fight."

It was implied that you won't find my master, at 64, jumping into a cage like a monkey .... he's rich and famous already.

If you want to see if we can fight, please come visit our school. One visit will do what 1,000 posts back and forth can not.

I will be away until the 18th so please wait until then. Or better yet, there is a NYC Throwdown March 20.

red5angel

03-08-2005, 01:00 PM

Is that what people like Red5 really believe?

Yep. Science isn't subjective, it's objective, proper science that is. It's not a religion and it's not subject to what can't be proven. Everytime this argument comes up people start spitting out how "Science" can't find every answer. Well, I believe it can, because science isn't a thing, it isn't moved by anyone's particular dogma. Is it correct all the time? Of course not. If Qi existed could it be explained through science, absolutely. EVERYTHING is measurable, sometimes the trick is trying to figure out how to measure it, or what it is your measuring.

Suposedly Qi has been studied for thousands of years, or whatever number you Qi-heads wanna throw out there. Somewhere in Ancient China, someone uncovered the secret of Qi and away we went.
Somehow, those ancient chinese understood things we did not. They've addressed their percieved (key word there) reality in a certain way, and have chosen to do so even today.

The funny thing is, if these guys knew something we didn't, you'd think in a few thousand years, or even a few hundred, they'd have figured out some sort of scientific basis to work from, to utilize this Qi in more specific and more credible applications then ALL the amorphis, hard to pin down ways people claim to be using them today.

Talk about placebo affect? Imagine the placebo affect might have on someone who wants to believe, and has spent enough time to become invested in it, and what that "feeling" they claim to have but can't explain or pin point.

sure we don't completely understand the way the body and the mind react, but why does that suddenly require an ancient Chinese myth to explain? Just because it fills a vacuum.....

or maybe the sky is just one big black bowl with holes in it so we get peeks of heaven?

cam

03-08-2005, 01:09 PM

Red, how do you explain the taste of sugar? How would you explain that to me, without having me taste it myself.

red5angel

03-08-2005, 01:13 PM

cam, delibandit, what do either of those questions have anything to do with what we're talking about now? I'm not talking about the failure of language to be able to describe experiences. Language requires a common frame of reference, in this case you and I know what sugar is and what it tastes like. If you don't have taste buds we don't have a common frame of reference. That doesn't invalidate that sugar tastes sweet but more to the point, it doesn't invalidate that sugar doesn't exist. I can show you sugar in several different forms and ways.
While you can't "Record" dreams, again through a common frame of reference we ALL understand they exist, and it can be scientificaly shown that your brain activity increases while you dream, again, proof that goes to show there is something happening.

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 01:16 PM

internal comes down to two very distinct camps

the ones who can actually fight ignore all the esoteric poppy cluck and train hard, have good technique, conditioning, etc...

the rest talk all sorts of meaningless drivel and never want to demonstrate it in actual practice...

I was told about this deadly Hsing Yi guy and this deadly strike he did, blah blah blah.... this was years ago.... he rubbed me the wrong way and we ended up squaring off.... he was so concerned about not killing me... I told him DO WHATEVER YOU WANT.... I broke his nose in the first exchange, then proceeded to chase him around the room for the next 22 minutes....

I know another internal guy who had the "answer" to fighitng a boxer. His solution was based upon a left hook thrown my an idiot, incorrectly.... if he had ever tried it on someone who threw a hook correctly, he'd have been killed. His student disagreed, so we tested it. I kept hitting him with my hook and then bounced him into my right leg kick. I did it 10 times in a row.

Like most of these deluded individuals, he couldn't grasp it even when it was in his hands. He said he hadn't mastered it yet, after 5 years with his teacher, but was sure his teacher would be able to pull it off...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

MonkeySlap Too

03-08-2005, 01:18 PM

Ray,
If you don't want to be misunderstood - SAY WHAT YOU MEAN!

Obscure phrases like you used sound suspiciously like the typical pseudo-zen I hear spouted all the time. How am I suppossed to know what you mean if you don't actually say it? How do I get 'my teacher is too old for fighting, but boy was he great in his day, but of course we spar out of:

"As for internal masters fighting, I doubt you'll see it. You fight when you don't know. "

Now where in that statement am I expected to infer all the rest of it? :eek:

Of COURSE I don't expect a 60 year-old to fight, but that is NOT what you said. Can't you take a step back and see that? Yeeesh... this is the poison of fortune cookie English...

However, if I make it out to NY, I'll take you up on that, as long as were all friendly, and can go for Dim Sum and beer afterwards.

MasterKiller

03-08-2005, 01:20 PM

While you can't "Record" dreams, again through a common frame of reference we ALL understand they exist, and it can be scientificaly shown that your brain activity increases while you dream, again, proof that goes to show there is something happening. Acupuncture is thousands of years old and wasn't just used by Asians. Does is not count?

FngSaiYuk

03-08-2005, 01:23 PM

Oh jeez, not another 'this is my definition of Qi' - the prob w/the word is it's vast usage. I can totally understand why some people flee from the mention of the word.

I think I should have substituted 'get worked up at' instead of 'flee from'. ::grin::
Then again, it's entertaining to many to argue over different aspects or meanings.

red5angel

03-08-2005, 01:25 PM

this thread is apparently one big "I'm not reallypaying attention" party.

MK - I haven't addressed acupuncture, I have no experience with it and have never seen any studies on it's effects. does it work? I've heard lots of claims that it does, of course I've heard a lot of claims that Qi exists as well. If it works does that prove that Qi exists? Nope, not even a little bit. I breath several times a minute, that doesn't prove Qi exists. I recover from a cold, that doesn't prove Qi exists. I learn to fight and I can hit pretty hard, that doesn't prove Qi exists.

TaiChiBob

03-08-2005, 01:30 PM

Greetings..

Ford Prefect: if i have "put words into your mouth" i apologize.. but, in rereading the post, i don't see it.. "Qi, as ridiculed here, ... " was not directed at you.. it was a generic observation of the assault on the subject..

"You stated with certainty that qi was bio-electricity".. i stated with certainty that (and, i should have added the following) i have read numerous accounts/articles by valid (credentialed and published) authors that link Chi/Ki/Qi as generally conceived to Bio-electrical/bio-chemical energies.. and, those articles were sufficiently convincing, in their limited scope, to me, to inspire the penned lines to which you refer. I do not imply that the authors asserted Qi Balls or other such improbabilities.. You have successfully called me on my assertion, and i have qualified my statement to my own, and i hope, your, satisfaction..

Re: Dr. Yang Jwing Ming... i will be hosting his Taiji Ball seminar (with QiNa and QiGong), here in Orlando, next January.. i have trained with him on several occasions (seminars and such) over the past 6 years and find him capable and ready to back up his words.. and a good teacher, too..

I don't close the door on too many things, and Qi is one of them.. i find it ignorant and arrogant to assume that the sum of human knowledge defines the universe.. i, personally, suspect that our ability to perceive is so limited as to negate much of that which is actually right in front of us.. and worse, much of that limitation is self-imposed..

Be well..

cam

03-08-2005, 01:31 PM

Red, you said it, " A common frame of reference".
Now just imagine for a sec that I've never tasted sugar, no matter what words you use I'll never know what you're talking about. Now suppose I taste this sugar and then I go back to the "sugar free zone" where no-one has ever tasted sugar. How do I explain it to them, without sounding mystical and all?

Shaolinlueb

03-08-2005, 01:37 PM

I personally enjoy the bizarre BS claims by tradtional and non traditional guys. Heck, I'm almost entirely in the martial arts, just to hear people make outrageous claims like being able to kill you wthout touching you and that their art is soooo much better then anything else out there.

i think its funny too. i sometimes like to make those claims i can kill things with one touch. and then i squish an ant with my finger. mwuahahahahahaha irony owns!

MasterKiller

03-08-2005, 01:47 PM

If it works does that prove that Qi exists? Nope, not even a little bit....

I learn to fight and I can hit pretty hard, that doesn't prove Qi exists.

By your own rationale, it doesn't prove it doesn't either.

If you can hit hard does it mean good mechanics exists?
Probably.

Why?
You hit something hard.

If acupuncture works does it mean Qi exists?
Nope, not even a little bit.

Why?
Because even though acupuncture works and a western scientific model can't explain why, we don't all have a common frame of reference.

:confused:

Does not compute. Does not compute.

Fu-Pow

03-08-2005, 01:50 PM

Well, I believe it can, because science isn't a thing, it isn't moved by anyone's particular dogma.

Science stems from a certain "worldview." It is the "world view" of objective rationality. When a "worldview" is shared by many individuals it qualifies as a "culture." Science is methodology that was created (and is being created) by the culture of scientists.

You are right that science is not "dogmatic" in that it SHOULD always subject modification.

However, science stems from a particular "worldview" and a particular culture (as broad as that culture that maybe.) And like any other "worldview" shared by a culture of humans it has inherent biases.

To bring it back full circle. Look at the "placebo effect." Why is it dismissed as THE placebo effect? Why isn't it used as a perfectly valid method of helping people to heal?

The old Chinese culture realized that what we think effects how we feel and how we feel manifests itself in how well our body functions.

But the "placebo effect" doesn't fit into the paradigm of modern "scientific" medicine that always seeks to reduce diseases down to their most material component.

It doesn't fit into the inherently BIASED paradigm of "modern medicine," therefore, it must not exist and not be useful.

Only now is the culture of "science" coming around to focus its gaze on the connection between mind and body ( mostly in the field of immunology. )

My point is that science and the objectively rational viewpoint carries biases and assumption just like any other "worldview."

Is it "better" than dogmatic religion. Yes, obviously.

But, the final thought I leave you with is that if science is the be all and end all then why does science have no way of proving what is "better" or "worse" than any other world view.

Answer: It operates in the sphere of objectivity, quantity and extension. Not in the sphere of quality, depth and value.

:D

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 02:10 PM

Ross,

You have no experience with real internal martial arts so you really don't know what you're talking about.

oh please, LOL, the desperate gripping to try and remain valid... :cool:

I've been in this 28 years more or less, I've seen TONS of internal... here, and in China....

the last dying gasp in these arguments always is

"the ones you saw weren't real, but there are real ones out there"

As I said, they must be hiding in Detroit or something, because they never seem to show up! :rolleyes:

TaiChiBob

03-08-2005, 02:20 PM

Greetings..

the ones who can actually fight ignore all the esoteric poppy cluck and train hard, have good technique, conditioning, etc... actually, i know folks that do both.. they explore potential and whip the butts of those that poke fun at them for doing it.. it really doesn't have to be one or the other, it really can be both.. except egos get in the way..

lkfmdc: My experiences in your lovely town are not so good.. stolen car and stolen luggage (different occasions).. but, Josh and Tiffany and Max have invited me up and if i make it i would be honored to play.. (if i can hold on to my gear).. You're in NYC.. how about the Chen's (WCC), how would you rate their internal?

Be well..

red5angel

03-08-2005, 02:27 PM

No, you'd be kissing her a** in a discussion with her about qi.

I'm not currently trying to get into your pants delibandit...pillow talk man, pillow talk!

Likewise, those who experience qi through martial arts have a shared experience as well

so do supposed UFO abductees.........

I'm sure brain activity changes during taiji practice, which may lend credibility to the existence of qi.

Here's the common trap. You've managed to paint yourself into a logical corner because you don't have enough information on the subject. If you were to sit down and talk to a doctor of science who has spent his life trying to understand the brain, he will probably be able to explain to you why measuring brain activity during sleepy time shows that the brain is active and is a direct correlation to dreaming. In the interrum, read a book or two on it and you may get to understand a little more about how those things work. I'm not claiming to be an expert but I do recognize the pitfalls we all fall into. This is why it's so easy to suck people into believing crap like Qi. You give them a reasonable sounding excuse that you may or may not believe but osunds plausible based on an insufficient and even dangerous level of knowledge on the subject.

You gave up CMA for Capoeira? I feel bad that so many have trashed CMA just because they've never encountered the real deal. I'll agree that true CMA is in short supply, but the real deal exists.

It was more then just this sort of thing. CMA is dying. It is failing to adapt and is being subsumed by charlatans who are preying off of the easily influenced. They are too busy arguing who has the real deal and who doesn't to really bother learning to fight half the time and the politics is just sick.

Now just imagine for a sec that I've never tasted sugar, no matter what words you use I'll never know what you're talking about. Now suppose I taste this sugar and then I go back to the "sugar free zone" where no-one has ever tasted sugar. How do I explain it to them, without sounding mystical and all?

This is not a valid argument for this particular subject. I'm not trying to say that sugar doesn't exist, sugar exists, whether you know what it taste like or not, I can show it to you.

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 02:27 PM

I can say I know Sifu William CC Chen pretty well. As most know, his Tai Chi has two attributes that make for good argument against the esoteric crowd

1. he attributes sucess to structural alignement and/or body mechanics and nothing "secret" or esoteric. he's said in the past that when he started, he thought Cheng Man CHing could fly and do supernatural stuff, then he spent time and learned that everything he did was pure alignment and technique..

2. somewhat related to the first point, he cross trained in Western boxing and uses its mechanics in his Tai Chi program.

Despite the PR campaign some put out, cheifly his wife, Chen's is NOT a fighting school. Max Chen is the ONLY fighter that has any connection to them, and he trained with NY, Boston and Cung Le; ie the top three San Shou teams. In fact, Sifu Chen has sent a lot of people to us directly if they want to learn to fight.

Being the son of a famous master has perks, people assume you learned all your stuff from him in secret sessions and they hail you as a great fighter, even when you've been beaten by Mike Norman and totally shut out 4 rounds to none by Rich Acosta (neither of which get mentioned in the gala press)...

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 02:32 PM

Hey, Delibandit, let's compare notes on who knows what the "real deal" is...

I've been in Chinese martial arts for 28 years. I was an instructor level in Hung Ga under Thomas Yeung. I studied Shuai Jiao under Jeng Hsin Ping (who EVERYONE in the SC world says is a top guy). I am the adopted disciple of one of China's "living treasures" Chan Tai San and spent 16 years training with him. I've also studied with YC Wong, Adam Hsu, Tai Yim and Wong Qing.

You've been doing Wu style for 2 years......

But you're right, it's not possible I've seen more than YOU! I mean, come on, TWO WHOLE YEARS OF WU STYLE!!!! What was I thinking? :eek:

red5angel

03-08-2005, 02:35 PM

Why?
Because even though acupuncture works and a western scientific model can't explain why, we don't all have a common frame of reference.

I don't know if there has ever been a thorough and solid scientific study on acupuncture but let me put it to you this way. We all know the stage tricks alot of people use in the martial arts. 500 years ago, they were using similar stage tricks to prove the existance of Qi. Now a days we know it's all fake, or it' ssetup in particulr conditions for a reason. I don't claim acupuncture doesn't work, I just don't think it has anything to do with Qi.
It's sort of like the old model of the Earth centric solar system. You can "prove" it works by showing a complicated mass of orbits, but it turns out that isn't quite the right answer.

But the "placebo effect" doesn't fit into the paradigm of modern "scientific" medicine that always seeks to reduce diseases down to their most material component.

this is incorrect. The Placebo effect has been studied numerous times by modern wester science, and is probably still being studied as we speak.

like it or not guys so called Modern Western Science has something, it certainlyhas more validity then ancient eastern "wisdom".

My point is that science and the objectively rational viewpoint carries biases and assumption just like any other "worldview."

Actually no it doesn't otherwise you couldn't identify it as objectively rational. thsat doesn't mean that western science has all the answers, but it is certainly closer to getting them then that same ancient chinese wisdom. sorry to have to break it to you guys, but modern science is creeping into every culture in the world, why you might ask? Because it works and it get's better everyday.

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 02:50 PM

The internet gives some people the absurd notion that all opinions are some how equal....

Hey, I have ideas about relativity, let me debat Einstein on the subject :rolleyes:

So what are you gonna argue Delibandit? You just said that you don't learn any esoteric crap, so you've just proved my point. IF an internal person has any skill, it isn't because of any esoteric crap.... or maybe that logic is beyond you??

But here's the real issue, so you're learning to fight with internal? HOW do you know what you are learning is going to work? Clearly, you're too high and mighty to lower yourself to do a lowly "sport" like San Da, so what do you do to test your technique? Bar fights on weekends? Misc street riots over holidays? Working as a bodyguard? Escorting caravans across the desert? :confused:

red5angel

03-08-2005, 03:15 PM

We don't don't look at it as a mgical force that will improve fighting, just a natural energy that exists within a living body

uh :confused:

red5angel

03-08-2005, 03:17 PM

I don't disagree that San Da is effective, but I don't find it interesting. In my opinion, it's watered down Chinese martial arts. It's popular in China mostly because the kids there don't really want to put the time in on traditional gong fu training.

What exactly does "watered down" mean? Isn't it possible that it's been adapted for sport, and it's been adapted to more modern methods of training? Not just watered down?

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 03:23 PM

Have you ever noticed that when someone can actually fight, and does so actively, they seem to be "watered down"? And that the term is usually used by a bunch of guys who talk a lot about fighting but never actually fight? :rolleyes:

More simply put, what experience in San da do you have? Gotta love guys who have watched 10 minutes of something and become arm chair experts....

Furthermore, it's all nice and good to talk about how Tai Chi is SUPPOSED to work, yet no one ever shows this skill......

Have you ever noticed that Chen style push hands looks more like wrestling than the new age feel good crap being done here in the US?

LKFMDC
AKA the Andy Rooney of TCMA

David Jamieson

03-08-2005, 03:26 PM

LKFMDC
AKA the Andy Rooney of TCMA

ewww... well you are crotchety. lol :p

red5angel

03-08-2005, 03:27 PM

the problem ross is that our guys aren't doing enough whirly birds, or duck chases the peanut. They're just throwing punches and kicks, no real mechanics, no real method to the madness. ;)

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 03:29 PM

Well, I made KL chuckle, time to move on......

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 03:32 PM

The mechanics of San Da are not, in my opinion, that difficult to grasp. It's just pretty low level gongfu in my opinion.

So glad you stuck in there, TWICE, "my opinion", since we already discussed how not all opinions are equal....

So, tell us all, how much San Da training have you done?

As for being effective, you seem to be saying you still are NOT effective, with "just" your 2 years.... as opposed to my guys who can be effective in MONTHS. Rich Acosta won the 2000 national in Florida with 6 months training....

red5angel

03-08-2005, 03:33 PM

It's just pretty low level gongfu in my opinion. And that's not saying you can't beat someone with it or fight with it. I'm sure it's effective in most situations. But it's not the old school gong fu that you'd see a generation or two ago.

So what you're saying is "high level" kungfu is more like Wushu performance kungfu? You must be since if you can learn to fight using San Da, you can learn it efficiently as well, and quickly and it's "effective in most situations" but it's still "low level"?

David Jamieson

03-08-2005, 03:45 PM

No, it's not possible. Real gong fu training is some very excrutiating, time consuming, years and years in the making stuff. People don't want to go through much anymore. And that's the basic training. Some of the borrowing force concepts and following concepts are not that easy to grasp and put into real fighting application in such a short period. I'd say the basic training for modern wushu is the old school stuff, but they really don't learn to fight. They're more concerned with the performance aspect of the movement and not the actual application. Most wushu guys probably don't know the martial applications for the movements they do. But they're basic physical training or basic gong fu in really good.

In comparison, I'll bet you could train someone to be a pretty decent San Da fighter within 3 yrs of hard training. The mechanics of San Da are not, in my opinion, that difficult to grasp. It's just pretty low level gongfu in my opinion. And that's not saying you can't beat someone with it or fight with it. I'm sure it's effective in most situations. But it's not the old school gong fu that you'd see a generation or two ago.

I

Um, I have to disagree. They are two different things. San Da is free fighting, Kung Fu is a lot of things, of which one focus is fighting. However, there are many schools taht have many forms or sets. IN these sets, we see movement from qigong to fighting application.

I think that this can be a problem if those changes aren't noted. And in fact, we see today some people trying to apply what is suipposed to be augmentation as application and voila, sh.itty kungfu. It is lack of understanding.

regarding the application and fight aspect, san da or really any mechanically correct fighting is only subject to the level of the fighter himself, teh techniques are prety much all found in most kungfu, they are just not so myriad, not mixed with the qigong and have the singular purpose of hand to hand combat and when in a sportive atmosphere provide a relatively realistic way to understand teh fighting part of Kungfu.

having said that, I like the qigong aspects, I like the meditation, I like the Ch'an and I even like the concept of scholar warriors and try to work that into my every day life. I like to help others, I like to give dit da jow to people who are bruised from conditioning excercises, but i do for the most part recognize the difference between a total method of kungfu for living and transformative benefit vs what goes where in a confrontation.

I have been a martial arts practitioner for a long time as well, but only focused into Chinese Martial arts exclusively for 10 + a bit Years now. You are correct, we were full blast sparring after a couple of years. In the last four years though, I have really learned to tighten up what I already had and get it working in a sportive combative context and I still hang on to the esoteric stuff and continue its practice as well, It is all good, but it is not wise to look down on one aspect of Kungfu because it is taken out of teh whole and popularized.

A lot of guys who are into mma and sportive combat are in fact interested in a lot of the conditioning methods of traditional martial arts. Quite a few of them in fact know the benefits of meditation and how it quells the adrenaline dump in confrontations and work that stuff in.

and then, there's the 'nut jobs' who clearly have weak structure, weak understanding of the combat vs the augmentation exercises and refuse to try to understand it for any number of reasons.

The argument of the superman is out there somewhere is moot and foolish, it is not true now and it has never been true. Even in full contact fighting, fighters come and fighters go. But at least those guys who take a chance on getting it (their bells rung or the brass ring) learn that there is a difference between a lot of talk and some effort to walk.

anyway, that's what I gotta say about it. NOt saying all trad kungfu people are whack and not saying that all sport people got the real deal either. It's in the mix really for me, and i can only speak from intrinsic and extrinsic experience, which at 40+ trips around teh sun is not great, but not small either considering 30+ of those trips have been spent doing martial arts in a variety of formats.

peace

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 03:46 PM

Most Taiji people you encounter don't do Taiji the right way.

(snip)

because Taiji is not understood or taught well in most cases and it takes many more years to become effective with it.

It's a dying art with few left in the world to truly champion it's greatness. Taiji is not for the masses.

(snip)

Internal martial arts is not easily understood and very few can really demonstrate it so most people don't believe in it.

The classic justifications and rationalizations, but the end result is the same. Apparently, no one can do the art the way it is supposed to be done....

Fu-Pow

03-08-2005, 03:56 PM

Taiji is not for the masses. Most people believe only waht they can see and understand directly. That's why external martial arts is more popular. most people can understand it and do it. Internal martial arts is not easily understood and very few can really demonstrate it so most people don't believe in it.

You wanna fight tomorrow, then learn San Da. You'll be better off. You wanna develop a skill that most people don't have, well that's a different and longer journey.

Totally agree delibandit.

Wai Jia= Take how you naturally move and improve it.

Nei Jia=Transform how you move.

Which one do you think takes longer to learn and do well?

I think the answer is obvious.

Kind of off topic..........

Ross did you see the latest issue of Kung fu magazine talking about adapting traditional technique to San Da technique.

What did you think? It was pretty basic but I thought the article was well done. I especially liked his example from mantis.

I'm out.....

Ford Prefect

03-08-2005, 04:32 PM

Greetings..

Ford Prefect: if i have "put words into your mouth" i apologize.. but, in rereading the post, i don't see it.. "Qi, as ridiculed here, ... " was not directed at you.. it was a generic observation of the assault on the subject..

"You stated with certainty that qi was bio-electricity".. i stated with certainty that (and, i should have added the following) i have read numerous accounts/articles by valid (credentialed and published) authors that link Chi/Ki/Qi as generally conceived to Bio-electrical/bio-chemical energies.. and, those articles were sufficiently convincing, in their limited scope, to me, to inspire the penned lines to which you refer. I do not imply that the authors asserted Qi Balls or other such improbabilities..

I agree with most of what you said. It's just that any "accredditted" author, doctor, scientist, etc can any sort of foolish things. That is why the science and medical fields have peer-review journals. I'd withhold judgement on scientific matters until it actually makes it through this process (or enters it in the matter of qi). I'm sure Feynman could write a very convincing article on how some major theory in physics is flawed. Until he provides evidence for his peers to verify, then it matters not one iota. There is NO legitimate evidence Qi is at all linked to bio-electricity. That's all I'm saying. You shouldn't bash people who don't buy into it.

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 05:14 PM

High-level principles in Chinese martial art are things like borrowing force, sticking force, following force, disolving force.

What you are doing is demonstrating exactly how shallow an understanding of these concepts you have. Principle is superior to appearance or shape. Or, in traditional Chinese Martial Art parlance, ching is essential, yihng is meaningless....

Critics of San Shou/San Da always seem to have such superficial understanding of true martial art, since it doesn't conform to their limit perspective, they fail to see the borrowing, sticking, following and dissolving. They fail to see the doors, gate and bridges. They fail to see the continuousness, the leaks, the drawing and the center line. They are so limited they can only grasp what is in their limited hand....

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 05:16 PM

Fu Pow, not having seen the article, hard to comment, I heard about it...

Essentially, there is no "controversy".... San Da is traditional technique, but we are concerned more with the "essence" and not with the "shape"...

Hate to sound like Bruce Lee, but we are more like water, we take the shape of the container at hand.... for the so called critics, they believe water is only water when it takes the shape of their favorite drinking cup

shuaichiao

03-08-2005, 06:14 PM

High-level principles in Chinese martial art are things like borrowing force, sticking force, following force, disolving force. They're not as easy to understand and harder to implement.

I'm just wondering what is it that you think tai chi uses these principles for? From my understanding you borrow force by absorbing the attack and bringing your opponant into a throw, takedown, or lock. Sometimes you borrow force by slipping a punch and letting your opponant come into a counter attack. Following is done to find opportunities for locks and takedowns and disolving is usualy countering grabs or pushes used for locks or takedowns. Competitions don't allow the locks but everything else is a regular part of fighting. There is a 2 second rule for throwing and if you dont absorb the attack you can't throw in time very often. If you cant disolve you would get thrown by your opponent most times. Are there other uses for the principles you mentioned? Yes, but I don't think you can say those principles aren't used by modern tournement fighters. To me the main differnce is that traditional arts practise self defense using and defending techniques not allowed in competitions. I don't think the principles are different at all.

joedoe

03-08-2005, 06:31 PM

lkfmdc

03-08-2005, 06:33 PM

The way I see it is that san da guys try to apply the CMA principles in a simulated fighting situation. It may not look like the way you train it in your class, but it is there. At least they try it under pressure.

joedoe mounts the correct, throws some punches, the correct rolls over, joe doe sinks in his hooks and his RNC... the correct taps in under a minute.....

joedoe

03-08-2005, 06:38 PM

joedoe mounts the correct, throws some punches, the correct rolls over, joe doe sinks in his hooks and his RNC... the correct taps in under a minute.....

Toughest fight I've ever had too :D

TaiChiBob

03-09-2005, 06:49 AM

Greetings..

First, i'm not sure how i got lumped into the esoteric crowd.. unless it's being open-minded.. it sounds like the training and experience levels are similar..

lkfmdc: I only have 15 years in CMA, prior to that another 15+ (at differing distributions) in Yoshukai, Aikido, TKD (hang's head), Goju Ryu, and just plain fighting with my partner's crowd.. i know it sounds like i didn't stay focused, but the local scene changed alot.. I train to defend myself or others against aggression of almost any sort.. i have found that the detailed attention of internal arts to alignment, balance and power-generation are most beneficial to my current place in the journey (54 years, this trip).. My personal perspective of Qi is that it is more like an effect or result of a number of things: proper breathing, proper nutrition, proper physical alignment, proper training, proper experience, and in a major way, proper balance.. balance of Yin and Yang (hard/soft), balance of physical/mental training, balance of observing/doing, balance of perspective...

From an open-minded perspective, i am philosophically "Taoist", i find cutting edge science (physics) to be more and more convergent with ancient notions.. and i let the evidence justify my experiences.. but, mostly, i keep looking for more evidence, i think we all make hasty judgements... Qi Balls? unlikely, improbable, but i won't dismiss the notion completely, it is theoretically possible at some level.. and i would regret missing it due to a closed mind..

At 54 i train hard, my students train hard.. they have won Gold, Silver and Bronze at national and international competitions (forms and push-hands).. and, cripe, yes.. lately, push-hands is much more like wrestling than much of the NHB :) ..

lkfmdc: Sounds like you know the Chen family well, i like the family personality, they are warm and generous.. WCC is a gifted man, particularly for his age.. Max is a good fighter and if you trained him, kudos.. the last time i saw him fight he had just gotten his "range" down comfortably.. I think i enjoyed watching Tiffany more at pushing than fighting (but, she's a delight from any perspective).. i don't know if you know Josh W., but he is a uniquely talented player as well..

I do hope i haven't damaged too many relationships in here.. but, more than outlandish claims, i dislike closed minds.. the claims will sort themselves out, the closed minds never get the chance..

Be well..

FngSaiYuk

03-09-2005, 08:25 AM

My personal perspective of Qi is that it is more like an effect or result of a number of things: proper breathing, proper nutrition, proper physical alignment, proper training, proper experience, and in a major way, proper balance.. balance of Yin and Yang (hard/soft), balance of physical/mental training, balance of observing/doing, balance of perspective...

From an open-minded perspective, i am philosophically "Taoist", i find cutting edge science (physics) to be more and more convergent with ancient notions.. and i let the evidence justify my experiences.. but, mostly, i keep looking for more evidence, i think we all make hasty judgements... Qi Balls? unlikely, improbable, but i won't dismiss the notion completely, it is theoretically possible at some level.. and i would regret missing it due to a closed mind..

Y'know, this is where you run into probs. Earlier on in the thread you stated that Qi was bio-electricity. Mixing the very broad eastern term 'qi' with the very specific scientific term bio-electricity just causes all sorts of problems due to the incompatibility of the eastern mindset where 'qi' can be properly applied and the western scientific mindset where definitions are quite thorough to prevent people from having to form their own interpretations.
EDIT: bleh... got distracted... Anyways-
So earlier on you state that Qi is bio-electricity, yet now you claim that Qi is a much broader mix of things. This specifically is where your forumfu is weak as no matter what else you argue, unless you rescind your original statement so your detractors can claim 'victory', you'll just be typing basically the same thing over and over and over...

TaiChiBob

03-09-2005, 09:03 AM

Greetings..

FngSaiYuk: Yeah, I know.. Qi, as a Definition, for me is best stated as "bio-electricity".. Bio-electricity is a result of intake (air, food, water, knowledge), training: ie: keeping the body clean and healthy and "well-tuned", like a good engine enhances the bio-electricity's effect.. and, there is credible evidence that there is a piezo-electric effect from stress or tension on bones that generates static electricity/current.. there is less evidence on how this effect works in classic western terms, but it is being examined as contributory to "meridian" type energies.. in any case, this is a measurable quantifiable condition, bio-electricity.. it can satisfy many of the conditions and claims made by Qi proponents.. it is my hope that it will serve as a middle ground where both sides can benefit..

But, as i stated, and contrary to my "definition" model.. my "perspective" of Qi is more of a cumulative effect bio-electricity, training, intention, and balance.. the net result being situations/events that challenge our perception of ordinary behavior.. being an idealist, i had hoped we could find a place where Qi could evolve into a modern concept and vocabulary.. silly me..

Be well..

SiuHung

03-09-2005, 11:08 AM

I'm not giving you classic justifications and rationalizations, I'm just stating the truth. I'm a believer, because I've felt the real thing.

For me, I don't have the skill, so I must rely on Tongbei.

I'm sorry to jump into this so late...

It's very nice to know that you've experienced the real thing .

The question is, when is the rest of the world going to be enlightened? Seriously, when are these real IMA payers going to step up and take ownership of the fighting aspects of CMA (or MA at that)? What qualifies somone as real ? Becasue they demonstrated on you? Or do they have a documented fight record that is varifiable. There always seems to be a real
person out there, but we never get to meet or see them in action, in all thier complex fighting skill glory.

SiuHung

03-09-2005, 11:11 AM

But, as i stated, and contrary to my "definition" model.. my "perspective" of Qi is more of a cumulative effect bio-electricity, training, intention, and balance.. the net result being situations/events that challenge our perception of ordinary behavior.. being an idealist, i had hoped we could find a place where Qi could evolve into a modern concept and vocabulary.. silly me..

Be well..

Why worry about it so? If you take all the qi/chi/"internal" talk out of your training...is it still effective fighting? If so, then why do you need it? If not, then why do we never see it?

SaekSan

03-09-2005, 12:15 PM

"but I know I can defend myself pretty well if I had to with Tongbei"

How do you know that? Have you used it in real-life?

Waidan

03-09-2005, 12:20 PM

What gets me about this Kung Fu magazine forum is the number of non-Chinese martial arts people on here. I'm here to discuss Kung Fu (Gong fu). Why don't all you MMA artists go somewhere else and discuss your stuff? Honestly, people come here to rag on CMA and say that Chinese martial arts can't fight. I just don't get it.

It's good to have outside perspectives to challenge your ideas. And honestly, it's not CMA that most of the MMA crowd has a problem with, but rather those who purport to have fighting skill, but refuse to demonstrate it. Sadly, modern CMA is loaded with such people of dubious ability.

David Jamieson

03-09-2005, 12:21 PM

delibandit-

man, take a chill pill.

First of all, most of those here are cma-ists. A lot with a few years of experience and plenty of hard training.

Some of us choose to explore things like san da, san shou, muay thai, boxing, JJ, BJJ et al in an effort to get an opportunity to apply what we have learned because all too often we find that opportunity unavailable in the all to often rigidly structured traditional kungfu environment.

I think that crossing hands and testing your mettle is personally not about proving something to someone else but validating your lessons and training and also finding your own weakness and your own tactical failings.

compliant training is fine at early levels and I am an advocate of a safe training environment and recycling your training partners. But I would refrain from calling anything "crap" if you haven't had at least a litrtle taste of it (usually that's all you need when it comes to sh.it as cheech and chong proved so long ago) :D

It's about goals and objectives. What is your goal in learning martial arts? Health? Then do it for health and stay out of conversations that deal with tactics. Fighting? then work towards your tactical abilities and don't worry about the health discussions too much (you get the health benefits anyway from the training!)

ultimately, as an analogy that is all too common to those who have actually "tried out" their stuff, they know that you will never know how to swim if you don't go in the water and wading pools don't count.

taste the bitter, for then you can know sweet. Kungfu training is not harder or rather more arduous than any hard laser focused training. Don't think for one second that the ufc fighters are less skilled because they don't pursue the esoteric aspects of martial arts. Besides, how can you know for sure that many of them don't?

red5angel

03-09-2005, 12:32 PM

It's very nice to know that you've experienced the real thing .

That's the cop-out most Qi believers use when talking about other guys who claim the same things. OR when they are defending their belief against someone who has met other Qi believers and and found them lacking. They couldn't produce because they didn't have the real deal ;)

What gets me about this Kung Fu magazine forum is the number of non-Chinese martial arts people on here. I'm here to discuss Kung Fu (Gong fu). Why don't all you MMA artists go somewhere else and discuss your stuff? Honestly, people come here to rag on CMA and say that Chinese martial arts can't fight. I just don't get it.

most of us were at some point CMA practitioners, but moved on to bigger and better things. The simple fact is most CMA sucks. Not inherently, and not all of it, but it's currently been flooded with all sorts of crap and all these claims of Qi aren't helping. CMA will make a come back I think when people drop all this nonsense and get down to what's real.
In honest truth, the guys I've met who can really fight don't claim to be using Qi, or any of that other crap, they use sound technique and plenty of good quality training.

Nope, but I feel really confident with it. Wanna try?

then your confidence is false. If you haven't tested it then you don't know it.

MasterKiller

03-09-2005, 12:57 PM

The way I see it is that san da guys try to apply the CMA principles in a simulated fighting situation. It may not look like the way you train it in your class, but it is there. At least they try it under pressure. If you watch LKFMDC's DVD, you can see how heavily his San Da training is flavored with traditional Chinese kung fu. It really gave me a new perspective on the guy and what he's all about.

SiuHung

03-09-2005, 01:02 PM

"but I know I can defend myself pretty well if I had to with Tongbei"

How do you know that? Have you used it in real-life?

"Nope, but I feel really confident with it. Wanna try? "

:rolleyes:
yep....some people just don't get it...
:(

SaekSan

03-09-2005, 01:05 PM

"Nope, but I feel really confident with it."

So then you don't know.

What you know is theory then, it hasn't been applied.

This is why many people seek venues such as Kuoshu, San Shou and Sanda and some even go out of their environment into such venues as MMA and such to put the theories to the test. Many will find out that the theories actually work but only after they go through the process of becoming a fighter.

People that dwell on theoric practice will be unable to apply their concepts under stress.

"Wanna try?"

I don't think you want me to try your skills, but if you would like we will host a Kuoshu tournament in May, I can send you info on the event.

:)

TaiChiBob

03-09-2005, 01:09 PM

Greetings..

SiuHung: If i take the "internal" talk out of my training it is indeed still effective.. it was effective before i trained internally.. my assertion is that internal training has enhanced every aspect of my experience.. please hear me say "enhanced", not made me superman.. i don't understand why when someone says that they study Taiji so many people assume that they claim to also be superhuman, it just ain't so.. i have never claimed to be a "badazz", i will bring a good game to the table, though.. Taiji is just another tool in the box ( a good one by my experience ) and no single tool will get you through every situation.. Taiji/QiNa together serve me well as complimentary to the 15 or so years of training i had before intro to Taiji, and complimentary to the various CMA arts since.. Taiji and the internal Arts will likely give most serious 10 year+ players a distinct street advantage for the first few seconds of a scuffle, but.. a good street fighter is quickly adaptable to new situations, finish it while you can.. against a combat trained competition fighter you had better have more than a silky smooth form and cool pajamas..

However good i might be, or however good any "Taiji" player might be.. i understand the pure physics of hopping in the ring with, say, a Ken Shamrock or some such beast.. (a good Taiji player is clever, too).. i would want to balance the physics of that equation with some serious stuff... put me in the ring with Ken and all the "Chi in China" wouldn't help (that was a pun, i hope somebody got it).. I have played with some remarkable Taiji Masters, with some remarkable players.. but, almost always the game is subject to some preset rules.. within those rules they can own you at will, i just can't answer for their street savy, though, and i won't be the creep that pushes it.. One Master in particular, a Master Wong, Wu style, can keep his opponents in a continual state of falling, shifting us just past the point of balance and never letting us find it again AND never letting us shift out.. it's really frustrating.. within the framework of the "game"..

Anyway, i'm just saying there are good solid Taiji players out there that understand the game and their place in it.. don't overlook a valuable tool because of some charlatans.. heck, i still drive my truck, even though there are plenty of nasty noisy little rat racers out there... they look and sound bad but i scrape 'em off my bumper daily :D ( and we all pay our Federal gas tax )..

Be well

lkfmdc

03-09-2005, 01:28 PM

because it's worth looking at again

If you watch LKFMDC's DVD, you can see how heavily his San Da training is flavored with traditional Chinese kung fu. It really gave me a new perspective on the guy and what he's all about.

exactly MK, exactly....

ewallace

03-09-2005, 02:22 PM

I know that Kung Lek and I had this discussion a couple years ago.

In that conversation I stated that if I were to encounter a real situation, one that I was not prepared for (ie: real street confrontation), I would take an established street fighter...not trained in martial arts... over one who has nothing but studied forms and sparing against partners of the same style for a few years...especially internal arts. Not that I don't respect them, but if the opponent was a decently trained boxer, or had some kind of weapon, I would not want to rely on someone who has been trained to stick and feel the energy of someone over one who can hit most people before they even see the movement. I repeat this alot, but like Mike Tyson said, everyone has a plan until they get hit.

And, many of the gloves boxers, mma guys, and pretty much all fighting and competitive arts wear are not meant to protect the opponent, but rather to protect your hands. Now, a boxer might break his hand hitting someone without gloves on, but chances are he will not be the only one with something broken. So I cannot stand hearing that gloves reduce the effectiveness of what MOST martial artists can do. Trust me, you don't want to stick and feel someone with a 6 inch blade who is quick as hell and does not telegraph his move with his knife hand. The only exception to this is folks like Monkey Slap who wouldn't exactly be allowed to throw someone on their head in a competition.

It's my belief, right or wrong, learning the ability to fight effectively does not take years to learn.

That's why these arts are called martial ARTS. Most arts are meant to study, most for many, many years.

I don't mean to make this a blanket statement, but in most situations I do believe it applies.

red5angel

03-09-2005, 02:59 PM

to add to some of what you said ewallace, I'd say that anyone can learn to fight in a short time, but in any art, real depth is reached over time and with the proper training, even in shalow arts like sanda :D

joedoe

03-09-2005, 03:24 PM

If you watch LKFMDC's DVD, you can see how heavily his San Da training is flavored with traditional Chinese kung fu. It really gave me a new perspective on the guy and what he's all about.

I have not had the pleasure to watch his DVD since it appears there are shipping problems to Australia :D.

Seriously, if I weren't so cash strapped right now I would get one. However, after having read Sifu Ross' thread about his late sifu I have a better understanding of what Sifu Ross is about and where he is coming from. And I have a greater respect for what he has to say.

lkfmdc

03-09-2005, 06:47 PM

Hey Chris, two words.....

shorter paragraphs :p :D

but that aside.... I just have to squint to read it .... it's all good stuff

After about 10 years of doing Lama Pai, and breaking it apart and putting it back together again, I came to the conclusion that "lables" were meaningless

I defy you to tell me that it isn't an "internal" system, if you adhere to that scheme of naming, and define it with those principles...

Personally, I adhere to Miller's translation of Sun Lu Tang's book on how internal/external is a really bad misunderstanding and a poor choice of words that we best forget about and move on...

The principles in Tai Chi, Hsing Yi and Ba Gua I can all show you in Lama Pai.... but they look totally different from the "techniques" found in those so called "internal styles"....

I had an experience with a high level northern person, his stuff sure did LOOK different than Lama Pai, but it was exactly the same in ESSENCE...

My fighters may not take a "Neih Lahk Sau" on guard pose and "seek" with "lin waan sau".... or do they? If I pour the same water from a fish bowl into a fluted vase, is the water different? And if I then pour it into a soup bowl?

The problem with Chinese martial art is, that what it really is is very advance IDEAS... in which the shape is essentially MEANINGLESS... of course the dumb lo faan cling to the shape, ignoring the real essence :rolleyes:

Sociopaths are nothing new to the arts, it sort of takes one to dedicate the sort of time necessary to learn to actually kill someone effectively. Not to mention of course, who would want to learn to kill someone effectively???

OK, that WOULD be "me".... though over the years I left Kung Fu because I'd rather be a "sport pansy" than a gangster or a thug... Traditional fighting is also strongly based and related to a sort of mindset. It is a Faustian (sp?) deal... that's why so many can't grasp it, and why others wrap the product in fancy ribbons and avoid the fighting all together...

SiuHung

03-09-2005, 09:50 PM

Greetings..

SiuHung: If i take the "internal" talk out of my training it is indeed still effective.. it was effective before i trained internally..

Then you don't really need it.

my assertion is that internal training has enhanced every aspect of my experience..

Blah Blah Blah (insert brainwashing from years of being told "this is how it is")

Taiji and the internal Arts will likely give most serious 10 year+ players a distinct street advantage for the first few seconds of a scuffle, but..

Likely...but it's clear you're theorizing here. Let's face it...this is unproven. Plain and simple, this cannot be proved by the people who believe it. Got to love those faith based martial arts.

a good street fighter is quickly adaptable to new situations, finish it while you can.. against a combat trained competition fighter you had better have more than a silky smooth form and cool pajamas..

And in your years of taichi experience, what does it take?

However good i might be, or however good any "Taiji" player might be.. i understand the pure physics of hopping in the ring with, say, a Ken Shamrock or some such beast.. (a good Taiji player is clever, too).. i would want to balance the physics of that equation with some serious stuff... put me in the ring with Ken and all the "Chi in China" wouldn't help (that was a pun, i hope somebody got it).. I have played with some remarkable Taiji Masters, with some remarkable players.. but, almost always the game is subject to some preset rules.. within those rules they can own you at will

So how does this prepare you for when there are no rules?

i just can't answer for their street savy, though, and i won't be the creep that pushes it.. One Master in particular, a Master Wong, Wu style, can keep his opponents in a continual state of falling, shifting us just past the point of balance and never letting us find it again AND never letting us shift out.. it's really frustrating.. within the framework of the "game"..

So outside of that strict framework, what will this skill do for him? Do any of his students apply said skill outside of a strict rules venue? If so, when, and against whom?

Anyway, i'm just saying there are good solid Taiji players out there that understand the game and their place in it.. don't overlook a valuable tool because of some charlatans.. l

But they really are few and far between aren't they...

David Jamieson

03-09-2005, 10:56 PM

well, to be fair to sociopaths, they aren't necessarily killers, they are just incapable of empathizing with someone who is hurting.

They can't emote properly cause der brains is whack.

TaiChiBob

03-10-2005, 07:08 AM

Greetings..

SiuHung:

Then you don't really need it. All you need is a Glock.. Geeeze, some people are so full of themselves.. i don't need it, but i choose to enhance my skills..

Blah Blah Blah (insert brainwashing from years of being told "this is how it is") Not quite, the "brainwashing" would be your own, you've let the rhetoric of others influence your own views.. my statement is based on my experiences. Anyhow, nice social skills, jump in late and start bashing..

Likely...but it's clear you're theorizing here. Let's face it...this is unproven. Tsk, tsk, who's theorizing.. its proven, i assure you.. i used "likely" to account for those Woo Woo types..

To address the rest of your pleasant little post.. i simply suggest you reread my post and note the parts where i assert Taiji's usefulness as complimentary to other skills.. and, suggest that no single system is overwhelmingly superior to all others.. As for usefulness in no rules encounter, there's a lot of very useful technique and training, for those willing to actually give it a go.. It's all training, if you don't find it useful don't bother.. for those that do find it useful (and there are many) why do you feel the need to incite conflict?... If i said i could knock you out with a glowing Qi Ball, i would expect and deserve such crap.. but, i assert good hard skill from whatever systems work.. and, good Taiji works..

Be well..

red5angel

03-10-2005, 07:51 AM

Taiji and the internal Arts will likely give most serious 10 year+ players a distinct street advantage for the first few seconds of a scuffle, but..

Over what? A guy who has no training? A guy who has no internal training? Si hungs right....it's theory

ewallace

03-10-2005, 08:09 AM

All you need is a Glock

Just please do not aim it sideways. :)

Ou Ji

03-10-2005, 08:50 AM

An internal combustion engine ignites fuel and oxygen in the chamber and produces energy. That energy is measured by looking at the results of it's creation; torque, RPM.

The human body is also an internal combustion engine (of a chemical nature). Energy is created by burning fuel and oxygen and it's measured by the results.

The ancients had a feeble understanding of this and didn't explain it quite right but were, non-the-less, on the right track.

Exercises that improve oxygen intake, absorbtion, and burning will result in increased health and longivity. Increased overall health will definitely make a better fighter.

So the results of the energy producing combustion within the body's cells is measured how in western science?

What would is this energy be called in western science?

BTW, I just faart around all day reading kung fu forums and watching kung fu flicks. I don't train or fight BUT IF I HAD TO I know some really slick moves from Snake & Crane Secret and The Buddhist Fist as well as Shaolin vs Lama. :D

FatherDog

03-10-2005, 09:13 AM

Nope, but I feel really confident with it.

And this is the point where we stop paying attention to you.

TaiChiBob

03-10-2005, 09:35 AM

Greetings..

red5angel:

Over what? A guy who has no training? A guy who has no internal training? Si hungs right....it's theory It's quite a bit more than a theory to those that actually use it.. to those that haven't invested the time and training it will never be anything other than a theory.. If a Taiji player avoids a butt-kicking on the streets due to their training, why do you have issues?.... I don't claim, nor do i see other Taiji players claiming, to take down NHB or cage or SanDa competition fighters.. but, those of us that have good training in a variety of arts including and favoring Taiji can bring a respectable game to the table, that's all i am saying or have said..

How many of you guys out there fight using a single system.. with no other background than the single system? Taiji has integrated into the other arts i have studied and i find it useful.. where is the problem.. If you have problems with woo woo types, fine.. i'm not of that mind-set.. too many years in the real-world, too many scars from the real thing..

Be well..

red5angel

03-10-2005, 09:38 AM

An internal combustion engine ignites fuel and oxygen in the chamber and produces energy. That energy is measured by looking at the results of it's creation; torque, RPM.

I thought that was phlogiston? ;)

tiachibob, you made this statement:

Taiji and the internal Arts will likely give most serious 10 year+ players a distinct street advantage for the first few seconds of a scuffle, but..

Who is it exactly you are implying they have an edge over?

PangQuan

03-10-2005, 09:54 AM

I had this cat once, it was an inside cat. I would play with this cat with its toys, my hands and boken. I had this cat for two years. Eventually I moved. I moved to a neighborhood that I felt comfortable letting my cat out. The first time I let my cat out it got in a fight. This cat it fought with was definately an outside cat, you could tell it had been in its share of real fights. But to my astonishment, my cat completely kicked its tail. No contest. Was it due to the toys and playing? Or could it have something to do with the cats? The outside cat was definately at least 1 or 2 years older, more experienced and more confident. It even picked the fight.
That cat was definately a fighter, my cat was most definately raised in only one atmosphere.

So my question to you all is this;
Does it really make a difference what you train? Or is it the individual, and how they train? I think through all of our bickering we miss the truth, and use our desires and egos to push what we want, without looking at the flame and seeing the light.

red5angel

03-10-2005, 09:56 AM

It is definitely the individual and how they train.

PangQuan

03-10-2005, 10:18 AM

Thats what I think. So I dont seem to understand why people always argue over which style, or mixture of styles is best.

As confucious was quoted to have said:

"We should not be worried whether others know of our skill, we should be worrried whether we actually have it."

Royal Dragon

03-10-2005, 10:29 AM

You know, after reading this I am reminded of a quote a freind of mine has in his siganture. That being "I move my own way".

I think that no matter what style you do, you still apply it your own way. At some point, you just have to say the hell with it all, and make it work yourself.

It's like a language. We all learn english, but my writing style is going to be different than anyone else's. If I was an english porfessor, I'm sure I could learn to write in the style of any number of the great authors. But day to day, I wriet my own way.

red5angel

03-10-2005, 10:30 AM

I'm not arguing about any style in particular, I'm just arguing against the Qi chicanery.

PangQuan

03-10-2005, 10:31 AM

PangQuan

03-10-2005, 10:50 AM

I'm not arguing about any style in particular, I'm just arguing against the Qi chicanery.

Gotcha. My sifu never says the word "Qi" he just tells us to use more energy. Like when your pushing a car, and you have to use lots of energy. Then you become depleted after using lots of energy for long periods of time. This is a realistic view of what Qi means. Using your body's energy which is derived from different sources of fuel, such as food and air. It is just so wrapped up in mysticism that people get this idea that its like magic or something.

lkfmdc

03-10-2005, 10:54 AM

so, let's review what we learned here

10 years of Tai Chi gives you a small edge against someone who never trained at all :rolleyes:

red5angel

03-10-2005, 10:56 AM

Gotcha. My sifu never says the word "Qi" he just tells us to use more energy. Like when your pushing a car, and you have to use lots of energy. Then you become depleted after using lots of energy for long periods of time. This is a realistic view of what Qi means. Using your body's energy which is derived from different sources of fuel, such as food and air. It is just so wrapped up in mysticism that people get this idea that its like magic or something.

Right, now if people just stopped insisting on using the word Qi, we could get past all this crap.

MasterKiller

03-10-2005, 10:59 AM

I'm like Samson. I get my martial power from God. The weird thing is, if I shave my balls, it all goes away. God is funny that way.

TaiChiBob

03-10-2005, 11:09 AM

Greetings..

Who is it exactly you are implying they have an edge over? I don't know, and that's the point.. if you had read the post without your petty prejudices, you would have noticed it said "street scuffle", and we just don't know at that moment who we are up against.. my assertion is that if someone attacks it is usually because they believe they can prevail, the victim seems vulnerable.. if the victim has unobservable skills, then they have an advantage, if they know how to use it..

I'm not arguing about any style in particular, I'm just arguing against the Qi chicanery. Here's the thing.. R5A, you are arguing against outlandish claims of Qi Magic and such.. no problem, i agree.. but, when i offer at least reasonable explanations and credible uses that have no link to magic or "chicanery" i receive the same treatment.. you cannot see past your own prejudice against the "word".. i think we could actually conspire to agree on a "meaning" that is both reasonable and consistent with good science.. maybe it would make a good thread.. "21st Century Qi, the new definition".. and lets see how it pans out.. working toward a common goal sure beats 10 pages of conflict.. we can continue to push each other's buttons over this issue ad infinitum.. or, we could look for a way to resolve it, a way to come to terms..

Be well..

lkfmdc

03-10-2005, 11:14 AM

so, once again, what you're saying is that in a "street scuffle" with someone with no training, 10 years of Tai Chi MIGHT give you a little edge???

:rolleyes:

Ou Ji

03-10-2005, 11:30 AM

red5
Ha, just like eletronics theory. Transisters work on smoke. Once you let it out they don't work anymore. :)

so, let's review what we learned here

"Right, now if people just stopped insisting on using the word Qi, we could get past all this crap."

So TCB was right, it IS the word that gives some peeps a problem.

lkfmdc
I thinks it's a "street scuffle" with someone with unknown training but keep trying.

red5angel

03-10-2005, 11:36 AM

I don't know, and that's the point.. if you had read the post without your petty prejudices, you would have noticed it said "street scuffle", and we just don't know at that moment who we are up against.. my assertion is that if someone attacks it is usually because they believe they can prevail, the victim seems vulnerable.. if the victim has unobservable skills, then they have an advantage, if they know how to use it..

If you don't know, then you can't make any caims of having any sort of edge. Unless yu're trying to claim that because they've been studying Taichi for 10+ years that they have an edge over everyone?

Here's the thing

ok

you are arguing against outlandish claims of Qi Magic and such

Partly but we'll move on and I'll come back to it.

when i offer at least reasonable explanations and credible uses that have no link to magic or "chicanery" i receive the same treatment.

I haven't seen reasonable explanations. I've seen the same sort of misleading, hard to pin down definitions most people fall into when they find they can't explain Qi. The only "strong" arguments I've seen - and by strong I mean spitting it out without a stutter - are those theories supposedly based on science, that really are based on some sort of metaphysics. everyone else starts out at with some spiritual/mystical zen-like mumbo jumbo, then moves to I've seen this and experienced that, then on to some pseudo scientific explanation like it's "bio-electricity" but it's really not and then finally to, well if you've never felt it you'll never get it.
This whole argument has been gone through multiple occasions in the five plus years I've been on this forum and it goes through the same evolutions no matter that the people arguing it change. We have yet to see ONE person with any HARD scientific data to back up any claims of what Qi is, unless they resort to something like "it's just the energy derived form eating and breathing and moving around". Ok, Then you're right, eating, drinking, moving around all produce energy, following the laws of thermo dynamics and the ways of biology.
Oh but wait! Qi is biology!!! That's been thrown out there before as well, and it's crap. "Qi" is a chinese word, that was used apparently to desrcibe quite a few things. In THIS particular context, martial artist who get sucked into the mystical bullsh!t that some people are selling to the gullible.
Every stinkin' time one of these so called Qi master types steps up to the plate, they get shot down. What's his name with Emptry Force, shot down, Yellow Bamboo, shot down. The list goes on. Before any of you Qi-heads start claiming those guys don't know what they are doing or talking about - bollux!!! It's the same ****ed stuff you people are talking about.
It can be scientifically proven that legs grow stronger if you lift weights with them, instead of standing around in oddball poses collecting energy from the earth. It can be scientifically proven that a healthy diet and a reasonable amount of exercise will increase your quality of life and your life span. All of this stuff is not mysterious and not one chinese guy whose jumped ship to come to the US has been able to provide one lick of anything beyond a good exercise regimen.

Now that my rant is over, and for the sake of continuing harmony bob, until this comes up again at some point like it usually does anyway, I'll say that you can't name something that no one seems to be able to explain in the first place. All you guys that believe in this need to come up with a solid, well defined and proveable definition of what this is. I've said it before, I don't know what acupuncture is doing, but some people claim it works. Other people also claim to have been abducted by aliens.

PangQuan

03-10-2005, 11:37 AM

If you study Sun Tzu you will come across the method of "percieved preparation". In short, you make your opponent percieve your preparation to be much lower than it truly is. Therefore he will prepare himself for what he percieves to be the current situation. Then you explode with your actual preparation, and he is under prepared. This can be exploited with any martial art. So in reality Taijiquan is the same and you will have an advantage over anyone, if played correctly, of course this all depends on how hard you have studied, and the level of skill you have obtained from your devoted practice.

SaekSan

03-10-2005, 11:40 AM

"It is just so wrapped up in mysticism that people get this idea that its like magic or something."

Now, why is it wrapped in mysticiscm? My experience has been that it's due to lack of proper communication (in most cases). I have seen time and time again people who could not communicate effectively with their teachers (language barriers) and left their imagination to fill in the blanks.

Imagination then was aided by movies (poorly translated), books (poorly researched) and articles done by people who were novices in the arts and had little understanding of what was being taught (1960's, 70's and 80's mostly). Although some may had noble intentions of exposing CMA to the world they did not have enough understanding of the whole picture. Others just flat-out BS'd it or translated Chinese books (poorly) and published them as their own work for profit.

The public, hungry for more info on what the Kung-Fu TV series and Shaw Bros. movies were all about, ate this stuff up as gospel truth. Many people took advantage of the fact of being the only ones in their areas of the US (and the western world for that matter) that had an interest in CMA (or were Chinese) and created their "styles" using the mumbo jumbo spewed out by their uneducated understanding of CMA. These people hid (and hide) under the veil of "my style is so deadly that it cannot be used in sport fighting" or "I teach people how to achieve a higher existence in the world through the cultivation of their chi in the secret style I inherited" or whatever other cult type saying they have and continue to propagate this mysticism and magic bs.

Ahhh... I guess that was a rant.

Sorry guys.

Royal Dragon

03-10-2005, 12:05 PM

A comment on the internal and it's superiority.

Ok, from my limited view and what I have heard over the years plus my own experiances, it appears that the internal arts greatly improve one's skills over thier previous experiance with the external arts. I have rarely seen someone who STARTED in the internal arts (with a few exceptions) show any greater propensity for fighting than anyone else. From where I'm sitting, it appears only those who found it later seem to get a great bennifit from it fighting wise. Then it's really just a pronounced improvement on thier own skills, and not something that gives them a majic bulllet over anyone else.

PangQuan

03-10-2005, 12:15 PM

"Now, why is it wrapped in mysticiscm?"

I think you answered our own question.

SaekSan

03-10-2005, 12:21 PM

Yeah, I guess I was putting it out there for everyone... English as a second language :D

SiuHung

03-10-2005, 05:45 PM

so, once again, what you're saying is that in a "street scuffle" with someone with no training, 10 years of Tai Chi MIGHT give you a little edge???

:rolleyes:

Well that's it, I'm convinced! I'm going to run out and study some taichi in case I get into a street scuffle! It's the seret edge I've been looking for in all these years of training. Yes indeedy, I'm gonna train in slow motion and talk about Qi for ten years along with some strict rules push hands, and then get into some serious fights! Screw all that hands on stuff! I feel sorry for all of you who do not seek out this special "edge"! :eek:

SimonM

03-10-2005, 06:12 PM

You see I feel that Taiji/internal theory can be very useful for helping someone to better make use of their other martial arts. However I seriously doubt that anyone could derive any SD benefit from JUST training in Taiji. It would kinda be like trying to understand the music industry with JUST an understanding of the underlying theories of Jazz. If you ALSO know about the evolution of popular music over the last 100 years knowlege of the musical theories of Jazz (improvization, syncopation, spoken word with musical accompanyment, non lyrical vocalization, etc.) will help you to understand how modern music is constructed at a deeper level however if all you ever learn was Jazz it won't make you any more likely to understand Hip Hop.

I just hope my analogy isn't too byzantine. ;)

shuaichiao

03-10-2005, 08:02 PM

I'm sick of all you modern day wariors bashing the hidden power of tai chi!!! This should shut you all up for good!

http://www.bjj.org/movies/www.ilram.com/taichimasters.mov

themeecer

03-11-2005, 01:44 AM

Dang .. this is as long as a SD debate. Can I prove chi exists? I don't think so .. never cared to try before. Do I find it funny that we have CMAs dissing a core part of their history? You're darn tootin. You guys are not happy unless you are arguing.

How would I attempt to prove to you that chi exists, if I wanted to? I would have to train you for a year or two in some of our meditation practices. (I know ... some of you will turn your brains off right there) Something I don't want to do. The burden of proof is not on me .. and I really don't care if you believe it or not. I initially had to take it with a grain of salt. But man .. when you feel the chi coursing down your micro and macro cosmic circles .. it is indescribable. I've never taken drugs before ... but I imagine this is what high powered drugs feel like. I know this doesn’t really contribute to the argument … but at the moment, that’s all I have the energy for … er .. make that Chi.

And on that Tai Chi Masters video clip. That's my friend Deva that I went to UK with!! How cool is that. Man, the internet surely has shrunk the world.

FuXnDajenariht

03-11-2005, 05:55 AM

so, once again, what you're saying is that in a "street scuffle" with someone with no training, 10 years of Tai Chi MIGHT give you a little edge???

:rolleyes:

isn't that the point?

i guess he trains for nuthin...

oy ve.....

red5angel

03-11-2005, 08:08 AM

but I imagine this is what high powered drugs feel like.

Like you said, you've never taken drugs before......

themeecer

03-11-2005, 08:37 AM

Like you said, you've never taken drugs before......

And you haven't experienced chi ... maybe you and I should compare notes. :p

red5angel

03-11-2005, 08:51 AM

I don't believe in it ;)

Judge Pen

03-11-2005, 09:17 AM

I believe in it, but I sure don't believe everything people tell me about it. ;)

TaiChiBob

03-11-2005, 09:39 AM

Greetings..

Geeeze, try to play nice with the hardcore crowd.. if you think that your dominance in a particular combat venue confers authority to determine the validity of a word or concept, you are deluded.. Taiji, correctly taught and learned, is valid as self-defense.. self-defense is not the same as competitive sport-fighting.. two differing approaches.. granted that a competitive sport fighter is likely to be good at self-defense.. but, someone can very well be able to defend themselves and have no need to climb into the ring for sport.. too many people make it sound like sport-fighters are the ones on the streets being the bad guys we have to defend ourselves against.. although some of the attitudes displayed in here does give some credence to that notion..

Oh but wait! Qi is biology!!! That's been thrown out there before as well, and it's crap. "Qi" is a chinese word, that was used apparently to desrcibe quite a few things. In THIS particular context, martial artist who get sucked into the mystical bullsh!t that some people are selling to the gullible. The only ones i see ranting about mystical BS is you.. the rest of us are pretty down to earth.. and, yes, Qi IS biology, both the biology we understand and the biology we don't yet understand.. "Qi is a Chinese word".. okay, Music is an American word.. both with more meanings and interpretations than we can go into here.. Some of you guys have issues with mystical BS, great , i don't care for it either.. but, you're demonizing of all Taiji because there are some wackos out there.. that would be like connecting ALL tatoo wearers with some of the lowlife scum that showcase their tats.. or affiliating Sifu Ross's school with comic book geeks just because of some of the art-work on his website.. (it's just a matter of perception)..

I will exit this sad comedy now, i'm not going to change your closed minds,and i'm only giving you more fuel to howl at.. you guys know who i am, i'm easy to find.. and yes, Sifu Ross, so are you, but.. i have no need to prove anything (been there, done that).. NYC, not for me.. but, if you want to see if 15 years of Taiji can bring a good game to the table, come on down.. i don't know the outcome, but i do like to play.. Maybe you can make it down to Nick's Tournament in July? of course there will be a lot of CMA, TCMA and Taiji types around (spooky, huh?).. I wish this could have ended better, more sad than outlandish claims (they sort themselves out) is the conflict among CMA (including Taiji) people.. and, as was mentioned, with others watching as CMA people tear down their own culture and history.. Qi is an essential part of CMA history.. but, it seems that a certain group of "prize-fighters" would prefer otherwise.. yep, challenges the notion WuDe..

Be Well...

red5angel

03-11-2005, 10:22 AM

then answer me this - What purpose does Qi serve?

MasterKiller

03-11-2005, 10:26 AM

It keeps you alive.

MonkeySlap Too

03-11-2005, 10:32 AM

Red - i understand your feelings and response to this. There is a lot fraud, self-delusion, and nonsense built around the word/concept of "Qi". But please remember, "Qi' is a word that has many, many meanings. Imagine in English the word 'energy' used a suffix or prefix to define each 'type' of energy.

Then you have Qi. And we would have people calling thier gypsy fortune-telling BS a "type' of energy.

There you go.

The many variations of Qi in TCM supply a working model for the human body much like Quantum physics does for the universe. The Chinese did not dissect bodies, so they created observable patterns/observable results models for medicine. Is the model actually how the body works? No. But does our current mechanistic view supply all the answers TCM does? No. (and the reverse is true also).

In martial arts, 'Qi' can refer to a great many types of 'energy' also. None of them mysterious if you know what you are talking about. It can refer to the type of energy used to strike with feels like/is created. It can refer to the breath/structure exercises that make it possible. It can refer to your attitude.

The concept of qi gives you a framework within which to place a great many things that are usable tools.

Not everyone who uses the word/concept "Qi" is a deluded moron. Although there are a lot of those.

Here's a tip: If you are breathing, you are 'feeling' qi.

red5angel

03-11-2005, 10:49 AM

"Qi' is a word that has many, many meanings

right, and that's probably the biggest reason why it should be abolished form use in the practice of martial arts. Because it has so many uses, it leads to confusion and lies.

In martial arts, 'Qi' can refer to a great many types of 'energy' also. None of them mysterious if you know what you are talking about. It can refer to the type of energy used to strike with feels like/is created. It can refer to the breath/structure exercises that make it possible. It can refer to your attitude.

again many definitions of the same word, all of which can be described through mechanical means. For example, the "energy" used to strike. Of course motion is an expenditure of energy, but it's not a "special" type of energy, and it's harnessed through muscle memory, increasing the strength of those muscles and through the proper alignment of joints to allow "energy" drawn from the actions of the rest of your body into it. does that energy come from "heaven"? No. Does it come from the ground? No. Does standing around humming to yourself in bizarre positions help you build that energy up? No.

Here's a tip: If you are breathing, you are 'feeling' qi.

how is this a tip? this is exactly part of the misinformation I'm talking about, due in part to the label of Qi being used to describe various functions. While you and I might understand that the word for Air in China is Qi, your average moron might not and so he goes off thinking he's sucking in this mystical energy while all he's doing is tha natural act of respiration, taking in oxygen and converting it to CO2 to be used as a fuel for the body.

MonkeySlap Too

03-11-2005, 11:08 AM

Red,
I do understand your point of view, but attacking a language and culture (which what you are doing by wanting to abolish the concept of Qi) is more a problem of POV than with the concept itself. Just because there are some charlatans, and some fools, does not mean something should be wiped out.

For many, the using the Chinese model, and conceptual framework is useful in thier practice. Is it needed to learn how to fight? no. Is it needed to grasp some of the more subtle benefits of CMA? I used to say no, but my experiences in the past decade say yes, you do need to grasp it to get the full benefit.

Really, you are overreacting. Yes, the Qi-heads over react to. But lets not kill them all. Let the rules of Darwin do thier thing. Better for your Karma.

you said: "Does standing around humming to yourself in bizarre positions help you build that energy up? No."

Reply: If you don't know what you are talking about, please don't say it. Post standing can benefit your training. Is it the only thing you should do? No. Does it give you magic powers? No.

I've literally been put through a wall by a Taiji guy who knew what he was doing. He used a vibrating jing that hit me like an electric shock (no, it wasn't electric, just felt like it) - kind of like water hitting hot oil as it spread to my insides, and it sent me through two layers of dry wall and some paneling. The guy barely moved to do that. True, I was pretty youn g and dumb, I doubt he would have got me with that move today, but it was an impressve display of usable skill applied against a guy with six years of Judo, five years of Japanese Kenpo, and three years of Long Fist under his belt (I'd been training about six years at that point). Many of the skills that went into developing that force was built from the kind of structure you get from post standing.

If you get a knowledgable teacher, none of this stuff is mysterious. It's practical, everyday knowledge.

I don't disagree with your premise that Qi-heads cause a lot of trouble. But I disagree with your premise the Qi as a concept is useless. It is only as useless as your understanding of it.

lkfmdc

03-11-2005, 12:55 PM

Since little Bobby Tai Chi wants to push the issue...

Let us compare ourselves for a moment...

When I teach an application to a kick catch and takedown, my "authority" comes from the fact that my students have been doing it for years in full contact arenas against guys who are trying to take their heads off. I have it on video and now DVD thanks to modern technology....

When you teach an application, your "authority" comes from a story about some guy who we can't verify ever really used it and who, even if he did, lived 40 to 100 years ago......

PangQuan

03-11-2005, 01:46 PM

There are so many unexplained things in the world. So many unsolved mysteries. Can you tell me for a fact what a black holes exact properties are, or will it be one of the many evolving theories? How do people develop the divine properties of stigmata? What color were the dinosaurs? Did they have cold or warm blood? Do we know? Will we ever know? That, we dont know. Bermuda triangle?

http://blcwebcafe.org/qigong.asp

Try to read this entire article, dont just read the first paragraph and quite. Read it in its intirety. This is one small example of studies done.

When i was a child we had an old woodstove. my parents told me it was hot and not to touch it. So i didnt. But it did not look hot. Eventually I came to not believe them. Then I touched it. It was hot.

When I was a young adult I had a friend. He told me about qi, and that it was everywhere. He told me that I could use this "qi" to effect my body in positive or negative ways. He told me I should learn to practice my control over it. I did not really believe him, thought it was chinese hocus pocus. Later in life, I was introduced to Qi Kung once again. By myself I began to practice specific methods that were imposed to me through detailed liturature. The method involved the regulation of the breath, then the regulation of the internal organs with the breath in the order in which they are chained, Im sure you qi kung guys know this exercise. Well I started this without supervision or a teacher. It was amazing, the feeling I would get when I would use my mind to become more intune with my body. I could actually feel my mind effecting my internal workings. It was a sensational feeling. It was as though my eyes were inside my body, and that my hands were touching my organs, it was a warm fuzzy feeling, like when you fall in love. When I got to the organ we label as the heart. I accidentally stopped it. I got freaked out. Jumped up and began running in circles to assure myself I was still alive. This is the beginning of when I started to believe in Qi. I dont know exactly what this all was, but the closest explanation in any human language would be Qi, or prana, or ki, heck there are over 90 representations from different cultures that all mean the same thing.

None of this I wrote is here to try and make anyone believe in something they do not wish to believe in. It merely is a represtentation of the fact that what we believe today may change tomorrow. In either direction. Qi as we know it may one day become more elaborated on in a scientifical standard, and may change the aspects of what we may believe now.

I believe in God, I believe in Tao. I believe God follows the laws of Tao. Christians do not. But they do believe in God. Their ideal of God differs from mine, yet who is correct. Answer: neither.

In summary; none of us are completely correct in any of our answers regarding this subject, because, well frankly, the idea has only been around for a few thousand years. Wait a few more hundred and we may have a more concrete answer on all of this. We are at a turning point in our understanding of the universe, meaning we have actually found the surface so that we may now begin to scratch.

red5angel

03-11-2005, 01:48 PM

red5angel

03-11-2005, 01:51 PM

read the article pangquan, I have a problem with this paragraph in particular:

"There is now considerable scientific research in China proving the effectiveness of Qigong as a cancer treatment. In one study, 122 cancer patients (51 of whom had malignancies) practiced Qigong in a training class for 22 days. The researchers found that there were "curative effects" with both benign and malignant cancers and that the longer the patients practiced the exercises, the stronger the benefits. They also noted that Qigong helped the survivors live better and it enabled the 17 patients who eventually died, to do so without suffering."

Where are these considerable studies? Who's doing them and why haven't they gone public with them? Ancient chinese secret? ;) "Curative Effects"? What the hell does that mean?

ewallace

03-11-2005, 02:12 PM

I've literally been put through a wall by a Taiji guy who knew what he was doing. He used a vibrating jing that hit me like an electric shock (no, it wasn't electric, just felt like it) - kind of like water hitting hot oil as it spread to my insides, and it sent me through two layers of dry wall and some paneling. The guy barely moved to do that.

I wonder if that was the same guy Brian from GM brought in. We stood about 30 feet down and put our hands against the cement walls on the bottom floor of Naperville RacquetBall(sp?) club. The guy (who was 30 feet down from us) barely moved, and we all felt the concrete wall shake.

MonkeySlap Too

03-11-2005, 02:31 PM

MS2, I'm not attacking a culture or it's language, I'm just pointing out that beliefs from a countries past aren't necessarily accurate or true in today's world. The concept of Qi obviously doesn't translate well into the modern day and I think people should let go of the mythical nature of these cultures.

REPLY: No,, you are confusing linguistic and cultural POV matters with charalatans and your own POV. Try seperating the two. Using your very same logic, I could say that medicine should be outlawed, because there are so many quacks and detahs caused by malpractice.

Other then a way of meditating, what's it good for?

REPLY: Are you kidding?

I was put partialy through a wall by a freind who has no martial experience whatsoever.

REPLY: so, what you are saying is you really s@ck at fighting...

sorry, I'd have to see it to believe it. So far claims like these are always told by people, never by cameras or public exhibition, or under scientific scrutiny.

REPLY: I concur. Ofcourse his actual motion was much greater than what I perceived, and other factors had to be in place for him to get that effect. But it was very
impressive to me nontheless.

Then give me a non-useless explanation of it. In plain speech, what is it, what's it used for, how does one "cultivate" it, where does it come from?

REPLY: Send me an e-mail. Come to my club. Pay for lessons.

Dude, I'm not sure you could understandf the explanation. Your 'cup' as they say is full. I doubt you could put your head around it if you tried. You do have some good points, particularly in your desire for clear definitions, and quantifiable proof. However, even when supplied, I doubt you'll buy it, you'll just want to say "But if you explained it my way, that would be better."

TaiChiBob

03-11-2005, 02:50 PM

Greetings..

Since little Bobby Tai Chi wants to push the issue... Now, now.. i really wasn't pushing.. a little snippy, eh.. a little hot, huh..

Let us compare ourselves for a moment... Don't flatter yourself..

When I teach an application to a kick catch and takedown, my "authority" comes from the fact that my students have been doing it for years in full contact arenas against guys who are trying to take their heads off. I have it on video and now DVD thanks to modern technology....GAWD, man, calm down, your dang near frothing.. I don't question your authority to teach your art, never have.. i do question any person or group that thinks their martial prowess can alter the historical significance of a "word"..

When you teach an application, your "authority" comes from a story about some guy who we can't verify ever really used it and who, even if he did, lived 40 to 100 years ago...... LOL.. get a grip, you assume much more than you know.. what i teach works, compliant or not.. and, i stand behind it rather than what my "students" do as you so eloquently put it.. and, no, i don't teach fighters anymore.. i teach Taiji for self-defense..

Now, i'm not out here beating my chest about what a badazz i am, nor how bad my students are, or how to buy my DVDs.. i'm not focused on winning the next trophy or pushing kids into the ring to build up my glory.. I'm teaching regular people a better way to live, a way to defend themselves in the unlikely event they should need to.. my students don't need to worry about being attacked by cage fighters (unless you're in the area).. they are part of the vast majority of Americans looking to just improve their odds.. not evolve into what, it seems, that you've become.. and, no, i don't fill their heads with crap.. i've got over 30 years in this game, and i teach practical stuff to get them out of a bind, moreover, we actually train to avoid the bind altogether.. most don't intend to train 3-4 hours a day to get into a ring, if they do i send them to my partner.. As for my "authority", it speaks clearly for itself.. Now, go play with your kids and reap some more glory.. and i'll keep trying to actually help people..

This dialogue is terminated.. 'cause, now i'm just plain "Tired of it"..

red5angel

03-11-2005, 03:00 PM

No,, you are confusing linguistic and cultural POV matters with charalatans and your own POV. Try seperating the two. Using your very same logic, I could say that medicine should be outlawed, because there are so many quacks and detahs caused by malpractice.

Your logic is incorrect - Medicine is for the most part a science. Sure you have people claiming to be doctors, or claiming to be able to do things they can't but if you go to a hospital, a Doctor of Medicine is someone who has spent a lot of time studying scientifically proven methods for diagnosing and treating ilness. That medicine and his practices are constantly being updated because they are being tested by science all the time.

Are you kidding?

nope

so, what you are saying is you really s@ck at fighting...

No, what I'm saying is that it doesn't take years of martial arts practice to put someone through a flimsy wall.

I concur. Ofcourse his actual motion was much greater than what I perceived, and other factors had to be in place for him to get that effect. But it was very
impressive to me nontheless.

See, now that's different then he barely moved and knocked me completely through a wall. If the guy was using sound mechanical principles and had been training those for some time, it makes sense he could do some pretty impressive things. But that's the crux see. Way back when, the chinese were seeing these guys who were spending all this time training, doing things that had no logical explanation. Because they didn't cut people over, because they're science was partially based in mythology and so on, they came up with an explanation - Qi. now we know better and it's time to move on.

Send me an e-mail. Come to my club. Pay for lessons.

Why send you an email? We're here, talking about it, let's hear it.

Dude, I'm not sure you could understandf the explanation. Your 'cup' as they say is full. I doubt you could put your head around it if you tried. You do have some good points, particularly in your desire for clear definitions, and quantifiable proof. However, even when supplied, I doubt you'll buy it, you'll just want to say "But if you explained it my way, that would be better."

I could argue the same thing about you. Your cup is so full of this Qi thing, you can't see it any other way. You're so attached to the mystical aspect of your martial arts training that you cling to an ancient word that has no more place in modern society. It's like continuing to claim that all the planets and the sun revolve around the earth, just because there is a logical - but incorrect - model for it.
I've experimented with this stuff a little. Oh I know a little isn't enough, but in theory I've been told by just about everyone, you should start to notice things within a couple of weeks. This was all with an open mind at the time. now it's not a matter of having an open mind, I've never seen any proof beyond what we understand today and the continual misuse of the word Qi is really screwing things up for the CMA community.

lkfmdc

03-11-2005, 03:05 PM

Dude, people who live in Chi houses shouldn't throw stones....

"Taiji for self-defense"

LMFAO, yes, you explained that. You said that 10 years of study with you and your Tai Chi and your students MIGHT have a small edge in a street fight...

Wow, that is impressive....

Nice straw men. I stated long ago in this thread that if you were interested, I'd PERSONALLY do a little demo with you. I'll take you down despite all your Qi nonsense... even if you want to kit me with Chung Lu's secret chi fire ball of death... I don't have any issue with it...

No, you aren't putting anyone in the ring. You're just teaching them to fight with Chi :rolleyes:

If you REALLY wanted to "improve their odds" you wouldn't have them relying on techniuqes that neither they nor YOU have tested....

- "i've got over 30 years in this game"

Earlier you said 10? But does it matter? 30 years of standing in place breathing in your left nostrile still doesn't compare to even 6 months of sparring and contact work...

If you intend to come on here and try and sell your pseudo theories, be prepared to be called on it. Don't get your panties in a wad just because we challege you...

themeecer

03-11-2005, 03:14 PM

In honor of my sifu Chan Tai-San, a link to the past and a guiding force in my life
Well you sure are honoring him with your words here.

ewallace

03-11-2005, 03:15 PM

Now, I haven't been around internal arts very much. But to me, chi is really just concentrated energy.

So, every morning about 6:30 A.M. my chi is really flowing around a porcelain bowl about 14 inches in diameter. 4:30 A.M. if I had a few beers the night before.

Sorry. Just trying to lighten up the mood around here.

red5angel

03-11-2005, 03:24 PM

you should see the "concentrated energy" I send your girl every night

PangQuan

03-11-2005, 03:26 PM

I saw this arcticle with the lineage holders of the Chen style Taijiquan, they continue to hold onto the fighting aspect of their art. I bet they could whoop up on some of us. I also bet they use there "Qi" in fighting, and I also bet they have lots of hands on experience with contact application. But what the hell do I know, I dont use Qi in fighting, and I dont know Taijiquan, yet. Ask me how I am doing in another 10 years. I do plan to start practicing Taijiquan this year. And I have seen someone under 160 lbs throw a 250 lbs man 10 feet, using a small taijiquan movement. So it is impossible for me to deny. Sorry for those of you who have not been able to see this type of action. But thousands of people have seen this type of thing before. Im not saying he used Qi, Im merely saying that he DID in fact do this. I am not him, I cant do it, so I dont know how its done. Neither can I perform open heart surgery, but I do know it can be done.

red5angel

03-11-2005, 03:27 PM

I believe there were some guys represented on this forum at one time that used Taiji in tournemants and weren't doing too bad. I also believe they didn't need 30 years of practice and standing post exercises to do it.

ewallace

03-11-2005, 03:30 PM

You talking about Shooter's guys?

red5angel

03-11-2005, 03:31 PM

I think so. Sounds right

SevenStar

03-11-2005, 03:38 PM

that's them - northern lights taiji. They grapple as well, but he says the grappling they've developed is all taiji based.

Also, william chen's son, Max, competes san shou - I think he cross trains though.

MonkeySlap Too

03-11-2005, 03:45 PM

Argh.

Lemme tell ya' most of the Qi -head stuff is in for a rough time in a fight. But there is some cool, usable stuff out there.

The Chen's do San Shou.

You want to see IMA free fightiing? Go see Wai Lun Choi or Li Tai Liang.

MonkeySlap Too

03-11-2005, 03:59 PM

Red,
The problem you are facing here is that you cannot seperate a useful construct from mystical BS. That's alright, your a literal kind of guy. Your position however, is just as extreme as the Qi-heads. Just in the opposite POV.

I concur with Coach Ross on the value of pad training over Qi-gong for fighting quickly. This does not mean that there aren't benefits you can derive from many of these practices.

I'd be happy to arrange first hand demonstrations for you. Let me know if you ever go to Chicago or San francisco, and I'm sure I can find someone who will oblige you.

Meercer - I think Coach Ross did just that. His teacher was a 'prove it' kind of guy.

Fu-Pow

03-11-2005, 04:02 PM

I could argue the same thing about you. Your cup is so full of this Qi thing, you can't see it any other way. You're so attached to the mystical aspect of your martial arts training that you cling to an ancient word that has no more place in modern society. It's like continuing to claim that all the planets and the sun revolve around the earth, just because there is a logical - but incorrect - model for .

The funny thing about your comments red5 is that you practice Capoeira which is as full of as much hocus pocus as any "mystical" Chinese martial arts.

Do capoeira guys even do any contact sparring at all or do y'all just dance around the "roda" and do handstands? To be honest Capoeira is pretty much laughed by most "traditional" and "modern" martial artists as a martial art.

Will it get you in shape? Sure. But so will Shaolin-Do or Chung Moo Doe.

I don't know. Maybe your one of the Capoeira guys who can hold razor blades in his toes so your sh!t is secret squirrel deadly.

MonkeySlap Too

03-11-2005, 04:04 PM

lkfmdc

03-11-2005, 04:06 PM

My teacher didn't mince words when it came to crap like chi blasts, ie, he would have told a guy like Tai Chi Bob EXACTLY how full of crap he was....

red5angel

03-11-2005, 04:12 PM

talk about sticking your foot in your mouth:

The funny thing about your comments red5 is that you practice Capoeira which is as full of as much hocus pocus as any "mystical" Chinese martial arts.

As with many martial arts, Capoeira does indeed have in its past a mystical and mythical history, based on several and a conglomeration of, native and african religions. Is it practiced now? Maybe, in some parts of the world. I know some Brazilian Capoeirista intermingle their own beliefs into their practice. It's certainly not ever present and definitely not a must have of the art. My group has nothing to do with it and as a matter of fact Mestre Loka determined he didn't want any of the religion in it. It's a personal decision.
Now if you knew wha you were talking about Fu Pow, you'd know all this and wouldn't have made an ignorant ass comment like that. Fortunately for the sake of my entertainment, you once again have stuck your foot down your throat. But Wait! I'm not finished! :eek:

Do capoeira guys even do any contact sparring at all or do y'all just dance around the "roda" and do handstands?

What exactly does this have to do with anything at all Fu Pow? If you had been paying attention, and you're not, you would notice my comments have nothing to do with what art does what and if it's effective. As a matter of fact I helpfully pointed out that there are guys actually using Taichi for fighting, much like Ross' group is using Sanda, but thanks again for playing.

To be honest Capoeira is pretty much laughed by most "traditional" and "modern" martial artists as a martial art.

funny, sounds more like your own opinion. I seem to be getting plenty fo respect for what I'm doing, and i'll explain why It hink that is, maybe you can learn something. It's because I'm not making bogus claims about capoeira being the shiznit, or that if I practice it long enough I'll get magical powers. Most capoeirista are pretty honest aboutit being more a sport now a days then anything else, although anyone who really takes a look at the art could pull plenty of useful applications from it. however again, you've opened your mouth and inserted your foot and I'd like to thank you once again for allowing me to point out how much of an idiot you truly are.

Will it get you in shape? Sure. But so will Shaolin-Do or Chung Moo Doe.

So will hung gar and choi li fut. So will taichi and karate, so what? Oh, I see, that was a shot at capoeiras credibility? Well go ahead and reread the above paragraph since this doesn't warrant much in the way of a seperate response. I just had to take the third oppurtunity to make you look like an ass.

red5angel

03-11-2005, 04:17 PM

"I could argue the same thing about you. Your cup is so full of this Qi thing, you can't see it any other way. You're so attached to the mystical aspect of your martial arts training that you cling to an ancient word that has no more place in modern society. "

REPLY: And you would simply prove that you have your head shoved up your own @ss so far that you have no idea why it smells so bad, bucky.

You don't know me. Want to know about me? Ask guys like Seven Star and Water Dragon. Guys who fight.

Honestly, to say this kind of sh!t is just ignorant.

Welcome to my ignore list.

way to over react there MS2. Up until this point I thought it was a freindly discussion since it turns out it is really ok to disagree. You tried to imply that because I didn't believe the same things you did my "cup" must be "full". I only tried to point out that that attitude can be completely turned around in this type of argument. They weren't shots directly at you. you're right, I don't know you and as turn about is fair play, you, it turns out, don't know me. I'm well aware you fight and so am more then willing to respect your opinion, whether I agree with it or not. Atleast your putting what you believe in into practice. You and I may not agree on what's going on when we're fighting but so what, it turns out you don't always have to be right or wrong for something to work. Anyway, overreact if you want, being put on your ignore list doesn't bother me a bit. It's just one more Qi champion I don't have to hear from.

Fu-Pow

03-11-2005, 04:42 PM

Red5-

Rather than having shown that I put my foot in my mouth the only thing that you've demonstrated is that you like to toot your own horn.

You play a traditional art that is light on the contact aspect and heavy on the "magical." And yet you sit here and try to tear down Tai Ji for exactly the same thing. Then you hide behind Ross who actually has a full contact sparring program. Weak, very weak. Personally I think Capoeira is pretty useless as a martial art.....its probably more like break dancing than anything else.

Why don't you go find a nice breakdancing forum where you might actually be able to fool someone into believing that you know what you're talking about.

Leave the heavyweight discussions to the grown ups who actually put on the pads and throw down. :rolleyes:

PangQuan

03-11-2005, 05:13 PM

D@mn you guys are mean to each other. I make it a point to never resort to name calling and personal attacks when I am having a intelligent debate. Does that mean this is an unintelligent debate? Or am i unique? I will now leave you all to your name calling and style attacking.

Peace, Love, and Harmony

lkfmdc

03-11-2005, 05:54 PM

love, peace, harmony and all that granola eating, navel comtemplating, feel good, tree hugging puke just makes me sick.......

Fu-Pow

03-11-2005, 06:04 PM

love, peace, harmony and all that granola eating, navel comtemplating, feel good, tree hugging puke just makes me sick.......

The weird thing about that is that some of those "granola eaters", my Taiji teacher included, are people that I would not want to tangle with. Lots of "Jin" even if they haven't put it to the test in a full contact arena. Maybe they would be even more bad a$$ if they had competed but bad a$$ enough that I wouldn't step to that.

FuXnDajenariht

03-12-2005, 12:54 AM

read this... i stumbled on it by accident.

http://twm.co.nz/DrYan_qi.htm

""How Does Qi Relate to Science, and What Do Leading Scientists Think about Qi?
Several universities in China have been conducting research on the application of scientific methods in studying qigong. A considerable number of scientists, including some famous ones, have been exploring this subject.
A number of experts and highly accomplished professors have recognized some of these scientific qigong experiments. Preliminary observations and reports on scientific qigong experiments suggest the following conclusions about qi, and are supported by many professors: qi can be observed, measured and quantified by precise instruments; qi has the properties of matter; qi has the properties of energy; qi conveys comprehensive information content, or has the characteristics of information; preliminary results reveal that qi, emitted by the human body to achieve certain effects, is subject to the regulation and influence of human thoughts and is influenced or disturbed by the emotions of the participants of an experiment, as well as the experimental design and environment.

The above five points are summarized from the perspective of scientific research by a number of scientists based on newly discovered phenomena. Further experiments have demonstrated that external qi possesses multiple attributes. For example, I collaborated with professors at Tsinghua University on chemistry experiments. We studied the bromination reaction of n-hexane as affected by long-distance qi emissions using a "double blind method." Typically the bromination reaction only happens the instant a strong ultraviolet light is introduced. This changes the normally dark reddish-brown mixed solution of n-hexane and bromine into a clear solution. However, under conditions of darkness, long distance, and the "double blind method," external qi turned the reddish-brown solution of n-hexane and bromine colorless within fifteen minutes. By measuring the molecular characteristics of the solution, we found that the molecular structure and density of the solution were changed. Moreover, qi could change the color of the upper two-thirds of the solution in a test tube, while leaving the color of the lower one-third unchanged. These results indicate that qi possesses special attributes.......... ""

you all seem to forget modern physics is a couple hundred years old....if that old. who exactly closed the book on modern science? wheres the memo? ;)

FuXnDajenariht

03-12-2005, 01:16 AM

"Our culture's materialistic worldview is rooted in scientism, which is not the same as science itself. Science in its purest sense is not a worldview but a method for systematically investigating and organizing aspects of reality that we access through our senses. Simply put, science is a way of knowing reality. Scientism takes this one step further and claims that science is the only way of knowing reality. Whereas science is silent regarding the aspects of reality beyond its scope, scientism asserts that there is no reality beyond its scope. According to scientism, if something is not rational, or not verifiable through the physical senses, then it is not real.

The first thing to notice about scientism is that it makes a fundamental assertion about reality. Scientism says, "science is the only way of obtaining true knowledge of reality." This statement, however, cannot itself be verified by the methods of science. It is like a blind man who claims that only through hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling can one know anything for certain about the world. Using only his four senses, though, he obviously cannot prove that there is no fifth sense. It is just the same with scientism. Its claim that the only way to arrive at true knowledge is through the senses cannot itself be verified through the senses. Thus, scientism is based on a "truth" thatóaccording to its very own standard of truthócannot be true. If we acknowledge this contradiction, then we must admit that scientism has no rational, scientific basis. It is a completely unjustified assumption about reality. We are thus free to let it go.

The second thing to notice about scientism is that it results in a limited view of reality. This is a consequence of the fact that how we look at the world determines what kind of world we find. As Heisenberg, the inventor of quantum mechanics, cautions us,

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature in itself but nature exposed to our method of questioning.

So, if the questions we put to nature are limited to strictly scientific questions, then we will only see the limited part of reality that is revealed by that method of questioning. Like the blind man who learns about all sorts of sounds and tastes and textures, but no colors, the method of science reveals a world accessible through our physical senses, but nothing beyond that limited scope. Now, because scientism clings to the scientific way of knowing reality as the only valid way, the limited world that science discovers is mistaken for all of reality. And this is historically how scientism resulted in our worldview of materialism: after the limited methods of classical physics discovered a material world, scientism took this world to be all of reality, and materialism was born.
Our materialistic worldview thus rests upon two assumptions: (1) science reveals a material world, and (2) scientism is true. The first assumption has been seriously challenged by the discovery of quantum theory. As for the second assumption, we have already seen that scientism is no more than an unjustified assumption about reality. And we must be careful to remember that scientism can just as easily fool us into taking a quantum worldview as reality as a classical materialistic worldview. No matter what worldview science might offer, if we mistake it for all of reality, we have bought into scientism.

We see, then, that scientism blinds us to everything in reality that is beyond the scope of the scientific method, no matter what that method may reveal to us. So, how much of reality is left out? Almost all of it! Einstein, for example, tells us

All our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike.

And Heisenberg echoes his words:

The existing scientific concepts cover always only a very limited part of reality, and the other part that has not yet been understood is infinite." - ~thomas macfarlane~

any scientist worth his phd knows the 1 rule to live by if any is to keep an openmind. :)

shaolinboxer

03-12-2005, 05:42 AM

"love, peace, harmony and all that granola eating, navel comtemplating, feel good, tree hugging puke just makes me sick......."

You prefer a state of conflict and hate? Don't get me wrong...too much talk about chi makes me roll my eyes and ****, but do you really have something against peace and love?

red5angel

03-12-2005, 08:23 AM

Red5-
You play a traditional art that is light on the contact aspect and heavy on the "magical." And yet you sit here and try to tear down Tai Ji for exactly the same thing.

Wow Fu Pow, you're just really not paying attention are you? Let me set your retarded ass straight for a minute:

1 - Uh, if you'd been paying attention, I haven't been knocking taichi *******. Look closer idiot and figure it out for yourself.

2 - I explained to you how capoeira works, go ahead and continue to reassert your stupidity, I have it on good faith that people like to see you do it.

Then you hide behind Ross who actually has a full contact sparring program. Weak, very weak. Personally I think Capoeira is pretty useless as a martial art.....its probably more like break dancing than anything else.

1 - Would you like to point out where i'm "hiding behind" Ross? Go ahead, I dare you.

2 - Personally, I think your useless, you've got no creditable input and no credibility. This thread is a perfect example. You're too stupid to actually read what's being discussed so you come out swinging with a bunch of offhand, out of context, and not pertaining at all to what I'm discussing comments. So keep shooting off your mouth there idiot, I like to see the monkey dance.

Why don't you go find a nice breakdancing forum where you might actually be able to fool someone into believing that you know what you're talking about.

1 - I'd love to be practicing my art right now. Instead it seems that since I have to work, I can practice pummeling you mercilessly because your wide fukking open.

Leave the heavyweight discussions to the grown ups who actually put on the pads and throw down. :rolleyes:

1 - Fu Pow, stop the smack talking, your a milquetoast who's got nothing on anyone here. I gave you the chance to prove you got the stuff, you said you'd show up if if and if. I was there, I was ready, you weren't. So go put on your pads sissy boy and play martila artist, I know you don't fight and It's obvious to anyone reading this you have no idea what you're talking about.

In case you haven't noticed, you've been dismissed, you may go sit by your dish now.

D@mn you guys are mean to each other. I make it a point to never resort to name calling and personal attacks when I am having a intelligent debate. Does that mean this is an unintelligent debate? Or am i unique? I will now leave you all to your name calling and style attacking.

Pangquan, I'd love to have an intelligent conversation but Fu Pow continues to bust in with idiocy. If you read his responses to this thread you'll notice he has no idea what's going on. I have little patience for ignorance or the ignorant.

The weird thing about that is that some of those "granola eaters", my Taiji teacher included, are people that I would not want to tangle with. Lots of "Jin" even if they haven't put it to the test in a full contact arena. Maybe they would be even more bad a$$ if they had competed but bad a$$ enough that I wouldn't step to that.

Whatever dude, a 13 year old girl has enough "jin" to keep you out of the ring. wannabe.

red5angel

03-12-2005, 08:34 AM

MonkeySlap Too

03-12-2005, 09:32 AM

Coach Ross,
If your talking about the same hippies with thier wierd fantasies as I am, I agree.'

However, good conduct, and compassion to others is core to my teaching. When teaching publically, I find the number of people whi cause thier own problems much greater than the number who have problem brought to them. A little perspective and compassion goes a long way to fixing this.

David Jamieson

03-12-2005, 09:35 AM

However, good conduct, and compassion to others is core to my teaching

this forum could use a little more of that.

TaiChiBob

03-12-2005, 10:19 AM

Greetings..

Well, so far, what have we learned.. Ross thinks he's invincible, thinks he knows something about people he's never met, he's not into peace or harmony (he really didn't have to "say" it), his students fight, his teacher would talk smack to me.. yeah, impressive..

Now, i hope Ross can read and comprehend, stated before, and now, for the last time.. i don't believe in Qi Blasts, currently.. but, i will if someone can show me.. kinda simple.. Mr. Ross, you and your little buddy, R5A, continue to ignore the fact that i largely agree with your assertions, you have your emotions invested in this, and you're embarassing youself and the art.. you seem to think i don't fight, you are so wrong.. but, that will work itself out in time. and, frankly, what your teacher may or may not have done, is of no real consequence now, is it?

And, Mr. Ross, if you need one, i'll send you a calculator.. my time in Martial Arts starts in 1964 with a Judo Class at McCoy A.F.B. ( i was 14, need some help with the math?).. i took time off a few times, once for a wonderful time in SE Asia (training of a different sort), another in the mid Eighties to start a business and a family (about 2 years), other than that.. pretty much full time.. you run your mouth like you are something special or have some special insight into the affairs of others.. it ain't so.

I'm going to move on, this serves no real purpose except to market Ross's twisted perspectives.. the world really doesn't need any more of that sort of tripe.. Do i regret getting into this sad comedy of a thread? yes and no, i had some respect for Mr. Ross's opinions, regrettably, now i do not.. but, at least now we know where he stands.. just another of the purveyors of violence that plague our societies, hiding behind the honor of real Martial Arts.. and, its likely he's teaching that mentallity to others.. so, there you have it, "peace and harmony make him puke".. he will continue to stir-up trouble because it's his nature, and then try to profit from it.. the same nature that fuels all conflicts..

This time i'm done. (with this thread)

red5angel

03-12-2005, 10:47 AM

Mr. Ross, you and your little buddy, R5A, continue to ignore the fact that i largely agree with your assertions

I asked for an explanation of what Qi was taichibob, what's it used for, where does it come from. I have yet to recieve answers to those questions.

Ou Ji

03-12-2005, 11:00 AM

You've been given answers but you reject them. I suspect there is no answer that would be good enough for you since your mind seems to be made u.

As the flood waters rose a man sat in his living room praying to God to save him. A neighbor drove by in his truck and offered to take him to safety.

"God will save me, I have faith" he replied. The waters moved higher and he ran to the second floor. Another neighbor came by in a boat and offered to take him to safety. "I have faith that God will save me", he said to his neighbor.

The flood waters rose some more and he climbed up on his roof. A rescue team in a helicopter came by offering to take him to safety. "God will save me from the flood waters, I have faith" he hollered.

Soon the water was higher than the house and the man drowned. When he came before God he said "I had faith in you yet you didn't save me. Why?"

God replied "I sent you a truck, a boat and a helicopter. What more do you want?"

Sometimes answers are right in front of your face but if your mind is set you won't see them.

Have a nice life.

Oh, and lkfdmc has been downgraded to just another a$$hole in my book. For awhile there I thought he was ok but he proved me wrong. I don't care if he can beat the crap out of me and everyone on the forum, he's still an a$$hole.

There's a reason some Masters don't teach just anybody the good stuff. A$$holes with skill are dangerous.

lkfmdc

03-12-2005, 11:08 AM

TaiChiBob,

I think it's clear which one of us can't read and comprehend. That would be YOU. I never said I was invincible. I only said that I'm extremely confident that I can take you down no matter what tricks/Chi tricks/Tai Chi nonsense you want to try...

Considering my opinion of you and your skills, I actually don't even consider that much of an accomplishment. I'm sure I have a pile of guys here with one year or less experience who could also take you down.

I don't have to meet you to get an opinion of you. From the crap you spout, it's pretty clear you aren't very grounded in reality... People who actually fight and test their skills are very aware of "reality"... you've already admitted you haven't tested your skills, it is just your OPINION

My teacher would indeed tell you that you were full of it. And if you wanted to take a shot at it, he'd have fought you. He was fighting in his 70's and still kicking butt...

Look up the word "MARTIAL" as in "martial arts" and you'll be shocked to find out it has to do with FIGHTING :rolleyes:

I have no doubt in my mind that my teacher would smack you so hard your grandchildren would be dizzy...

As for what makes me "special"? It's pretty obvious to anyone who has any grasp of logic. When it comes to fighting, my students consistently show they are trained to FIGHT, fight well, mostly win. We win in San Da, we win in boxing, we win in kickboxing, we win in grappling, we win in Muay Thai, we win in MMA...

Rather than talk about our mythical Tai Chi skills, we DEMONSTRATE our skills. If you can't grasp the difference, well, that says a lot about you doesnt' it?

LMFAO @ "purveyors of violence"

I suppose it's better to con people with lines about how 10 years of Tai Chi with no contact is going to make them fighters??

People like you want to TALK about fighting, never want to DO anything about it. When pressed, you get your underwear in a wad. Then inevitably you fall back on your "health and recreation argument"

I don't have any issues with health and recreation. I have issues with tools like you who talk about fighting and act high and mighty but have no clue what they are talking about...

Raquet ball is a great sport, but people who play raquet ball don't live in the dillussion it makes them fighters. Only Tai Chi people seem to suffer from THAT disease :rolleyes:

Ou Ji

03-12-2005, 11:34 AM

Actually. lkfdmc, your teacher did some of the things that proponents of 'mystical' qi perform in shows.

When the Shaolin "Monks" break something over a part of their body they take a minute beforehand to move their qi into that part of the body (very elaborat display while doing this) to make it capable of withstanding the attack.

So what the deal with breaking bricks over his head and snapping wires tied around his body?

BTW, for the record I'm a kook that believes in qi. Don't know what it is but felt it first hand. Don't know what else to call what I felt. Unfortunately I haven't been able to replicate that in myself so I'm always leary when others say they feel it.

I don't think 2 weeks or 2 years of Taiji/Qigong is enough to feel qi.

But i do think that someday it will be completely understood and explained.

David Jamieson

03-12-2005, 01:56 PM

you guys are wasting each others time.

red5angel

03-12-2005, 02:10 PM

You've been given answers but you reject them. I suspect there is no answer that would be good enough for you since your mind seems to be made u.

no I haven't. I've recieved some half assed "definitions" of the word. I've recieved some blurred, mumbled explanations for what it is or why one needs it and I've never seen a solid explanation for where it comes from.

David Jamieson

03-12-2005, 02:19 PM

no I haven't. I've recieved some half assed "definitions" of the word. I've recieved some blurred, mumbled explanations for what it is or why one needs it and I've never seen a solid explanation for where it comes from.

this can only be responded to with a "yes it is" or "no you didn't"

red you have been giving lots of definitions. You are choosing to reject them because you already have drawn a conclusion.

I don't know why you bother asking if you aren't prepared to accept some of teh simple definitions given or some of the more complex ones.

going through this thread there are several defs that jibe with the TCM definition of qi as well as just everyday definition of it.

are you just bored or something and feel like pushing buttons?

lkfmdc

03-12-2005, 02:33 PM

Bringing up the so called "Shaolin Monks" doesn't at all serve your point, I've consistently called them frauds and don't believe in them any more than I believe in the Easter Beagle :rolleyes:

As for Chan Tai-San, he did hard chi kung to make a living after 1949 and to entertain people. He never told his students, or anyone who asked him for that matter, that it had ANYTHING to do with fighting. Quite unlike those who claim they "fight" with "chi" .....

Furthermore, those demo's have NOTHING to do with any "chi"... it is about conditioning, determination and body coordination... which frankly I think is what REAL internal arts is about... not some mystical magic force that can't be defined or felt...

I already said I can belive in Chi as far as how accupunture works, etc... but it has no utility in fighting. Like 7 UP, never had it, never will....

Asa far as me being an "azz hole". That is the opinion of a very select group, ie those who want to deny the reality of TCMA and live in a fuzzy bunny, feel good, granola eating "new world"....

David Jamieson

03-12-2005, 02:45 PM

Qi is not just one defined thing. It is a definition of energy itself in context to where it is. Like teh energy that propels you. There are several factors at play such as you breathing, that breat being tranformed and sent to muscles and teh electrical impulses that contract those muscles causing them to move your structure about.

That combination of events is Qi in action.

Bio-electric energy is part of it, as is the aspect of breathing, as is the aspect of blood flow, and the conciousness involved that is chemical electrical action within our brains that is voluntary or involuntary decision to move.

Definition of Bioelectric (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bioelectric)

Definition of Breath (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=breath)

Definition of Energy (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Energy)

Definition of Transformative (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Transformative)

Definition of Life (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Life)

Definition of élan vital (a.k.a Life force) (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=%E9lan%20vital)

I mean, if you really need to bring it down to terminiology that is agreed upon by most eductaed people then there you go. I see not much conflict with these difinitions and the ones that have already been given. Of particular interest is the final definition given. I would also assert that these are not the only definitions of what Qi is, but when you start to combine them all, and even add a few others you can get a better understanding.

P.S also the 22nd letter of the Greek alphabet (just to have a little fun :p )

red5angel

03-12-2005, 02:45 PM

The TCM definition, or the basic definitions don't explain anything. We got Bio-electricity from Taichibob. We got air, from various people. We got the "energy" in your body from eating, drinking and breathing. All of those are now easily defined through modern terms that aren't hard to understand and don't try to obfuscate the fact that chinese martial artists don't have any secrets.

Bio-electricity - go ahead, tell me in depth how Qi is the best word to describe hwatever this is you are referring to.

Air - is that it? Are you trying to tell me that all that post standing is so you can breath?

Energy derived from eating, drinking and breathing - What?! How does the word "Qi" help to define what that is any better then the more accurate modern terms we have for explaining those things, and how does meditation, static poses all help that out?

Let's not forget the - "I don't know what it is" or the "If you haven't felt it you don't understand it" crap.

That's the problem with all these so called explanations. They aren't explanations at all, just more layers of misunderstanding and misleading. It's like answering the questions - "What is lightning" with, that strange bluish stuff that sometimes hurts if you get too close. Or "What is water?" - It's that wet stuff that you drink to live.

It's not that I've completely blocked out that Qi is explanable, it's that no one here seems to be able to answer the question very accurately.

Some of you guys just aren't getting it. Because of all the bogus claims about Qi, you get TCMA that sucks ass. You get people wasting their time trying to cure their ills, some of them terminal, by standing around meditating, and people believing that they can break the laws of physics in the throws of combat.

CMA has gone down the toilet because so many people claim that if they just stand around, or move very slowly, some sort of magical force will rise up in them and make them a kungfu superstar. That's why you get fat kungfu practiioners sucking for their next breath as they get their ass kicked in front of a camera by some guy who really is training to kick some ass. But everyone hides their eyes and throws out these lame ass excuses, "They don't know what they're doing" "they don't have the real thing" and "Their faking it".
I'm frankly tired of hearing of these all powerful taichi/qigong masters that can blast people through walls and move you without touching you. It's a crock of
sh!t. You really want to get hit hard? Go to a boxing Gym, and let a Boxer lay one on your kisser, then come talk to me about getting hit hard. You want to live a long time? Exercise regularly, eat healthy and proportionately, live smart and cross your fukking fingers, theirs no secret to it. No ancient chinese secret for how to live 150 years. Moses supposedly lived to 900, was he practicing qigong?!

PS: For some of you blockheads who don't get it, the moses reference is a shot at exactly how real I think all those ancient qigong masters really are. If you know my feeling on religion then you kow exactly how I feel about all the chinese mythology surrounding kungfu.

red5angel

03-12-2005, 02:51 PM

Definition of Bioelectric

Definition of Breath

Definition of Energy

Definition of Transformative

Definition of Life

Definition of élan vital (a.k.a Life force)

now tie it all in to what Qi is and why that term has to be used to describe all this when you have actual solid definitions you can go to for various functions of the world around us? why does it have to be mystical.

red5angel

03-12-2005, 02:52 PM

it is about conditioning, determination and body coordination... which frankly I think is what REAL internal arts is about... not some mystical magic force that can't be defined or felt...

Here's me kissing your ass Ross ;) or maybe I'm just agreeing with you because you're making some fukking sense and have a solid, intelligent instructor who was truthful with you.....

David Jamieson

03-12-2005, 02:55 PM

Hey, I am not saying that there aren't people out tehre who are unable to articulate what it is or perhaps have a skewed perception of what it is. But that doesn't discount it.

There are people who are mentally incapable of understanding or defining what space is, and yet, there it is.

What does it matter about the definition? And where do you see the mainstream of martial arts taking the position that they can use qi to move people in combat?

these are the anomolies, the crackpots if you will and one or two crackpots do not sully the whole of it. If that were so there wouldn't be millions of people out there doing tai chi, or qigong or Kungfu. But there are! Millions and millions of people enjoy the practice at many levels every single day.

does that mean it doesn't exist or doesn't have purpose? Even if each individual had only the purpose of getting fit and finding balance in their life through the practice of qigong then how is that bad if they see chi as being something they can cultivate and make stronger?

anyway, I'm not really looking to convince anyone, I just think that qi is more easily recognized and more easily defined than something like the trinity of the catholic god which takes a leap of faith for instance.

Whereas all I need to know about qi's extantness is waking up in the morning and getting out of bed. That is proof enough for me!

I think your problem with it, and others problems with it is that you and they are seeking a singular definition of what it is. But even since it's conceptualization it has never had a singular terminiological definition. The closest things that come to what you ar looking for are in teh definition of breath, ie the point of "life spirit, vitality" and in the definition of the hypothesis of élan vital.

But even those don't cover the wider context of the concept or the reality of it.

FuXnDajenariht

03-12-2005, 03:44 PM

Fuxn - that's not a bad quote, however he goes astray a little. While it says "Science is a way of knowing reality" it then immediately after states "Scientism takes this one step further and claims science is the only way of knowing reality.."
Those two quotes seem to clash for me. Science is a way of knowing reality, and the message this quote is trying to send is that science is a system of methods for understanding the universe around us. Because it's not a world view it's objective and is the only way of looking at things clearly. It's a way of developing a methodology for looking at reality. It's not religion, it doesn't profess morality and it's not always right because it doesn't seek to be right or wrong it is just a collection of tools and ways to find the answers. This is where this type of conversation usually goes wrong. When you mix religio or mysticism into a conversation with science, people tend to view science as another religion similar to what they believe and it's not.

the method of comprehending objective reality is limited by the observer. in more ways than one. it wouldn't be an issue if humans were infallible but we're not. its a constant progression and we can't afford to hold our noses in the air about any information. good or bad. we know many things that were held as truth hundreds of years ago are false because someone took the time to investigate them, and didn't make a self righteous judgement call beforehand. a more scientific view about qi theory would be to say that you do not know. or better yet to investigate for yourself. but most people are as dogmatic as the so called scientist they blindly follow sometimes. im not accusing anyone of that. but how many scientists today would wholeheartedly test things that they discard as inplausible? if you truly are as objective and unbiased as you claim you are why dont u investigate 'qi' 'theory' for yourself red? if you wont then you probably have no right to ask someone else to explain it for you. seems like no answer will seriously satisfy you and i dont think MIT or Harvard is gonna be doing qi experiments anytime soon. its just 'backwards' eastern knowledge after all.

and the statements dont contradict at all. dont read anything into it. it means exactly what it says.

Ou Ji

03-12-2005, 05:30 PM

red5angel
You want a cut-and-dried scientific definition with a readily reproduced verifying experiment but you don't want to wait until it can be explained completely by science. The problem is that there is still too much unknown about qi.

Gravity exists yet nobody can give a good description of what it is and how it works.

Is light a particle or a wave. Please, explain that to me right now.

"It's not that I've completely blocked out that Qi is explanable, it's that no one here seems to be able to answer the question very accurately."

And an Internet forum is a recognized source for scientific definitions?

"why does it have to be mystical"

It doesn't. Why are you proclaiming it to be mystical?

lkfmdc
I don't believe in the "Monks" shows either. I brought them up because your teacher played the same game. Did he make any announcements before or after his show informing the public that qi was not involved?

"As for Chan Tai-San, he did hard chi kung to make a living after 1949 and to entertain people. He never told his students, or anyone who asked him for that matter, that it had ANYTHING to do with fighting."

The ability to withstand a brick to the head has nothing to do with fighting? And you're from NY?

"Furthermore, those demo's have NOTHING to do with any "chi"... "

Ok, now I'm confused. He did hard chi kung to make a living and entertain yet his demos (entertainment? livelyhood?) had nothing to do with chi. So there's no chi/qi involved in hard chi kung?

What is the 'chi' in 'chi kung'?

"Asa far as me being an "azz hole". That is the opinion of a very select group"

A group that, I'm afraid, is growing. You really aren't impressing anyone here (except red5) and I'm sure you don't really care.

lkfmdc

03-12-2005, 05:37 PM

Ou Ji,
You are partially correct, I could really give a roddent's rear end what you think of me.... in fact, to a certain extent, when guys like you get so worked up it just amuses me..... :cool:

If you think breaking a brick over your head means that if I hit you in the head with a baseball bat on the street you'll be 100% ok... well , heck.... I"m really glad there are more people out there like you.

As far as impressing people, I am so sorry to burst your bubble but myself, my program, my school (www.NYSanDa.com), my DVD (available at www.MarkNegron.com) and my fighters indeed continue to impress people. People here, people in the fighting world, people looking for real answers to fighting, not Chi hocus pocus smoke and mirrors...

But you have a really good day, ya hear! :D

lkfmdc

03-12-2005, 05:40 PM

Oh, I forgot to mention

www.SanDaTrainingSystems.com

and

www.KingofSanDaUSA.com

and of course, in May 2005 the Combat Sports training camp

:D

lkfmdc

03-12-2005, 07:55 PM

poor Chris, still new here, he thinks that well thought out, well written pieces with factual support are the answer to stuff :eek:

basicly, what Chris said, ie, the demonstrations didn't have much to do with any "secret force" :p

lkfmdc

03-12-2005, 09:52 PM

I'm tempted to do a randy savage impersonation and scream "bring it on"...

or I could go more "real" and scream "bring it on BIOTCH" :p

either way, Chris is in for a surprise, my Crock Chu is stronger than it ever was :eek:

FuXnDajenariht

03-13-2005, 03:56 AM

now was that so hard? good posts chris. thats all anyone ever wanted. lay down some facts about it. no need for anyone to get fanatical.

cam

03-13-2005, 05:50 AM

Perhaps this thread should have been named, HIPPY TAI CHI OR REAL TAI CHI, as I sometimes forget that most tai chi is of the hippy variety. I guess that's why some members get so offended, as both styles will talk about Qi. Now what I have been learning is a synthesis of Chen village and Feng Zhiqiang's style, hardly hippy stuff. Qi is mentiond, however we work on the basics not on flowery descriptions of what Qi is.

MonkeySlap Too

03-13-2005, 11:21 AM

Red,
Actually you are correct, I was being a d!ck. When I'm not so busy, I'll get beack to this case. I was responding to your approach, rather than making my case.

-- MonkeySlap

Fu-Pow

03-13-2005, 12:31 PM

Dear Red5,

Haha....You talk so tough red5, I bet you're the best dang cartwheeler in your school. I put on pads every week and go contact. Can you say the same? Or do you just hop around the "roda" and play your "mystical" capoeira songs.You're pathetic. Hint: Just because you think you won the argument....doesn't mean that you did.
Your kung fu is weak....which must be why you quit kung fu and your web fu is just as weak. I did read the whole thread.

CONCLUSION: Red5 is a weak ass hypocrit who hides behind semi-famous people to make his point. He's probably never even sparred with any contact in his entire life.

Keep on practicing your hand stands and cartwheels. I'm sure your developing some a$$ monkey strength and the mindset to match.

themeecer

03-13-2005, 03:31 PM

Good gracious ... I can no longer tell who is my enemy and who is my friend on here. Where is the real Fu Pow who put the FU in fu? We are so intermingled on these boards. I have my SD brothers, my believers of chi brothers, my American brothers, my Christian brothers. Often these circles of brothers don't agree with my other circles .. enough to make my head spin around. Funny thing is .. for most of you .. if we were to meet in person .. we would probably hang out and have a good time.

A couple of pages back I read a post from someone who said they doubted chi can be felt after 2 years of tai chi/ qi gong training. I could have you 'feeling' it in about a year with our hou tien chi meditation. Doesn't mean you can use it for anything, not for a long time .. but you would most certainly know it is there. That is unless you are the unfortunate few whose bodies are stubborn and take a lot more time. This feeling isn't a fuzzy, aura, presence, tree hugging hippy thing, either. It is a "spin around and ask who just grabbed my back" feeling. Nothing mystical about it ... to me it is 100% physical. I always tell my students when they ask if the feeling they are feeling is chi that if they have to ask .. then no, it isn't. When you feel it .. you know it.

SevenStar

03-13-2005, 04:27 PM

I want to close this thread, but I can't - it's too amusing! :D

lkfmdc

03-13-2005, 06:10 PM

why do I open my mouth?

I've been asking this since 1989 or so :D

SimonM

03-13-2005, 06:16 PM

Good gracious ... I can no longer tell who is my enemy and who is my friend on here. I have my SD brothers, my believers of chi brothers, my American brothers, my Christian brothers. .

This is why I stick to martial arts and humour almost all the time. That way I don't have to worry about the fact that a surprisingly large number of the people I am inclined to agree with regarding martial arts I am 180 degrees opposed to politically and vice-versa. This is a KUNG FU forum so I try to keep it (as much as I can restrain myself) to talking about Kung Fu. Even my jokes and occasional trolls are about Kung Fu as much as possible - it keeps things simpler.

lkfmdc

03-13-2005, 08:03 PM

ah, yes

the TRUE measure of internal power is how high you can stack your ha gow luhung and not have them tip over

of this, I AM THE MASTER :D

David Jamieson

03-13-2005, 08:16 PM

hmmm, those are always the first thing they're usually out of at dim sum.

must be kuz ross is hoarding them all. :mad:

up with the shrimp dumplings dude! and the hot sauce!

red5angel

03-14-2005, 08:55 AM

red5angel
You want a cut-and-dried scientific definition with a readily reproduced verifying experiment but you don't want to wait until it can be explained completely by science. The problem is that there is still too much unknown about qi.

Thats not entirely correct, what I'm saying is that no one has been able to apply science to explain it and that's proof enough for me that it doesn't exist. Qi at the moment is alot like the gremlin under my chair. You can't see, you can't touch it, hear it, smell it or generally interact with it in anyway, so now prove it doesn't exist.

Gravity exists yet nobody can give a good description of what it is and how it works.

Ah yes, the gravity gambit. The trick here that everyone seems to forget when they use this as an example of how science "fails" or isn't always right, is that Gravity can be show to exist very easily and has been on many different levels. That's the point, Qi has not been shown to exist, except through "personal witness" and via stage acts that use stage trickery.

Is light a particle or a wave. Please, explain that to me right now.

Again it's weak, because Light can behave as either. How do we know this? IT can be shown through scientific experimentation to do so. And there i sno doubt in anyones mind that light exists.

And an Internet forum is a recognized source for scientific definitions?

This is the weakest argument on this post and has invalidated every one of your opinions from here on out. This is not a personal thing, but by claiming somehow that sciencetific data cannot be discussed over the internet and that scientific definitions cannot be passed on through this forum, you have invalidated anything said. So what is it?

red5angel

03-14-2005, 09:00 AM

I think the thing about Sifu Chan's demos, is this: you can call it qigong, hard or soft (whatever the difference is, beats me - I think it's a strange and unrealistic division - same with internal or external...but that's a whole other thread), but that's really not saying much: I think they were a combination of a few things:

1) conditioning / desensitization: obviously over time your system becomes "used" to the pain...(but don't think that it still didn't hurt for him to take a brick to the head)

2) intention: it helps to be a little sick in the head / willing to do whatever to make your break - and he certainly had that! (that's why I was never able to break a slab of concrete: ever time I "tried", I got too hung up on what might happen to my hand, and the possible fall out of an injury far outweighed what ever possible benefit I might get from doing it: on the other hand, one time a bunch of us were in someone's garage trying to break a patio block, and interestingly enough most of the "senior" people there couldn't break the slab - me included - while one of the most junior guys did it no problem, because he had no psycholoigcal hang-up about it)

3) to some degree, voluntary control over various aspects of the sympathetic nervous system - the ability to self-regulate the autonomics is well documented; it's like being able to turn on the adrenaline resonse at will - tapping into whatever it is that enables a frantic mother to rip a stuck car door open to save her baby - and if anyone is reaing, THIS is what I think really happens when you manipulate your "qi" - you tap into the power of the autonomic nervous system - I know this from personal experience doing various basic and advanced qigong exercises: if you don't know the science, you don't know what's happening, except what you feel: heat/sensations along NEURAL based pathways (like the macrocosmic orbit - what you feel going up your back is your SPINAL CORD and going down the front are the various clusters of autonomic ganglia "lighting up"); when you become more consciously aware of your ANS you can then work more directly with it and "create" those feeling smore easily - and, when you fight, you can activate th sympathetics from a much "cooler" space - it's like having the power of someone who's wigged out, but the cool of someone who's not...; and that's why you feel so blissed out / jazzed up, whatever: when you activate your neurochemistry, that's what you get (serotonin, anyone?); and if you think it's something beyond that, like the power of the universe coursing through you,well, you're right - we all ultimately come from the inside of stars, so if there's some sort of deep ontological echo in out molecular structure, well who's to say there isn't...but I still prefer the obvious answers...

4) good body mechanics: getting the most out of your movement - 'nuff said

5) knowing the "trick" - a number of his other feats were physics based: llike lying on a bed of nails and having concrete smashed over him: he was very clear about how to hold the sledge hammer (near the top), and how to swing it (hitting with a glancing blow as opposed to driving it straight through):although, as for popping the non-tampered-with-iron wires off his body and breaking the unbaked-fresh-off-the-construction-site-brick over the head...darned if I know the "trick" behind those...

You my freind have hit the nail on the head, for this is exactly what Qi is supposed to describe but has been mistaken for magic.