So cool I kicked my Mom in the head

[joedoe]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/03/07/1110160758932.html

I am not sure what the point of the article was, but thought it might be a good discussion point re. the historical aspects.

[IronFist]

That's a cool dead link. :)

[joedoe]

That's a cool dead link. :)

That is because a ninja wailed on his guitar then cut its head off. :D

Can't you see it? I will post the contents of the article.

-------------------------------------------------
Great leaping ninjas, gaijin are getting a grip on martial arts
By Deborah Cameron, Herald Correspondent, in Tokyo
Sydney Morning Herald, March 8 2005

There was a moment, just as the sword could have cleaved the skull, that time froze. The ninja master lowered his weapon.

Yes, it would cut, said Roy Ron, one of the highest ranking non-Japanese ninja in the world, who stopped the sword just in time. Although only a practice blade, lighter and duller than the real thing, the sword is part of a ninja martial arts tradition.

As a martial art, it became a household name because of movies and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle craze of the 1990s. In reality it has a history that puts it among Japan's most ancient traditions, dating from the samurai era.

Japanese legend tells of battles in which ninjas fought with sword, stave, bow and arrow, gun, concealed blade and vicious metal stars. They used paralysing body holds, bone-breaking throws and were so inventive and devious that, by using special shoes, they could walk on water.

Supernatural powers were said to have allowed them to peer into the eyes and see the soul, which petrified their enemy. They could also disappear, legend says.

Centuries later, during a Sunday morning training session in central Tokyo, the ninja arts still look ferocious and painful. There seem to be two possibilities for students: either be thrown or get caught in a painful hold that is released only after a frantic tap on the bamboo practice mat.

Remaining solely a martial art has helped the traditional hierarchy and mystery of ninja, say the purists. All the knowledge is passed down from the Grand Master, currently a Japanese teacher who this year celebrates 50 years of involvement, after inheriting the legend from his father.

Although his successor will be his son, the real heirs to the ninja tradition are very different, and not always Japanese.

Mr Ron, who also lectures in medieval history, says there are thousands more ninja practitioners outside Japan than inside the country. "Sadly, after WWII Japanese started disconnecting themselves from their own heritage and their own history," he said. "We are hoping that when they see so many foreigners interested in Japanese traditions that they will be interested again."

Gordon Simmonds and Robert Tierney, both of Brisbane, have hit the mat so hard and so often during visits to the ninja school in Tokyo that they've collapsed on to their futons at night, covered in bruises. Not that they complain.

"It began as self-defence but has ended up being a passion to be in command of my own body and be able to move it in certain ways," said Mr Tierney, who runs a ninja school with Mr Simmonds in Brisbane.

Like thousands of other ninja disciples from around the world, they will attend a ninja convention in Japan in October. Both say that a big drawcard for enthusiasts is the promise of new techniques revealed by the Grand Master.

[David Jamieson]

looks like ironfist works at a place that runs websense!

also known as "get to work you unproductive bas.tards!" :D

[Samurai Jack]

Okay article. Every martial artist has experienced what it means to train, that's all this is about. Really just a plug for the Ninja school.

Or if you were looking for trolls:

Ninjas are so lame. They suck and thier art is made up and nobody really believes in ninjas. How stupid... Ashida Kim... astral spies... ninjas flip out and kill people...blah...blah...blah...

[joedoe]

I am not looking for trolls, just wanting to spark some discussion wrt the history of ninjutsu. In particular, there seems to be two main camps with one believing that ninjas were clans of spies/assassins and were mortal foes to the samurai, while the other following the theory that ninjas were samurai with special training. Given that this is a martial arts forum, I thought it would be nice to have a discussion about martial arts once in a while :)

[Samurai Jack]

I am not looking for trolls, just wanting to spark some discussion wrt the history of ninjutsu. In particular, there seems to be two main camps with one believing that ninjas were clans of spies/assassins and were mortal foes to the samurai, while the other following the theory that ninjas were samurai with special training. Given that this is a martial arts forum, I thought it would be nice to have a discussion about martial arts once in a while :)

Sorry, of course you're right. I can just see the whole tirade coming and thought I'd kick things off.

I saw some guys practicing ninjutsu a few years ago in a local park. They were running an obstacle course they'd set up using playground equipment, big sandbags which they'd throw in the air and punch and kick before they fell, and trees, which they'd climb so fast it looked like they were running. They spent the entire thirty minutes or so I watched them with these exercises never once stopping for a break. Thier conditioning was admirable.

Now I can understand why folks scoff at Ashida Kim and so on, but I doubt most "real martial artists" could've kept up with the routine these guys were doing.

[David Jamieson]

ninja were not samurai.

samurai was upper caste warriors of feudal japan.

ninjas were who they hired to carry out deeds that they could not because of their honour code. So if a samurai had to do something dishonourable, he could not and therefore would hire a ninja instead.

a ninja could be anyone. willing to do the job, generally, they would need a little skill if they were gonna take on assassination stuff. BUt, they were more like hired goons in western senses. "Honourable" was NOT part of their code... in fact, they didn't have a code at all really and were not even close to samurai in status.

[joedoe]

SJ: I once took a ninjutsu class with a friend of mine, and we did something similar to that, but not to that intensity. Yes, it was hard work. When it came to sparring they were no different to any other art though.

KL: I have to admit that when people talk about ninjas in battle I am dubious. From what I understand the ninja preferred stealth and only fought if cornered. The idea of a ninja battle seems contrary to the whole idea of the ninja.

The theory that the ninja were specially trained samurai also has some merit, however the supposed existence of ninja clans goes against this theory.

Anyone have any definitive evidence either way? Or is this another debate that will never be solved?

[Samurai Jack]

I don't have any evidence, but I lean more toward the idea that ninjutsu was nothing more sophisticated or esoteric than guerilla warfare tactics. The Samurai had no code which would have prohibited the use of stealth and the same guys who did the soldiering by day did it at night as well.

[Dao]

I just hope Aishida Kim doesn't show up to the gathering :D .

[Starchaser107]

I think it Is possible that some ninja were Ronin, and others were spies and not affiliated with the samurai caste. why does it have to be either or?

[Mr Punch]

I'm with Jack. From what I read and saw in the ninja section of the Tokyo Edomura museum which admittedly is a rather cheesy theme park reconstruction of a part of old Edo despite having some rather splendidly made buildings, they were largely guerillas.

The whole thing about samurai honour is that it could be made to agree with anything... it wasn't all so dyed in the wool. There were plenty of samurai who thought the hagakure was nonsense, plenty of lazy and devious samurai, and plenty of thugs. Samurai could do anything they liked but public face was all-important.

The most important point about ninja is that they operated in secret (obvious but needs restating in context!). There were more techniques to run away and more techniques to hide than there were to fight, according to that museum. There was even (and this is my favourite) an explosive designed to kill the ninja and blow away his face in case he was going to get caught.

Almost certainly some ninja came from the samurai class, almost certainly some were just hired thugs, and almost certainly some were really really good well trained assassins and guerillas.

Interesting idea Starchaser, but it's perhaps most unlikely that ninja included ronin. Ronin were masterless, and generally disgraced samurai, and generally would not have had the access to the kind of power needed to give orders, or to the training cults.

[IronFist]

looks like ironfist works at a place that runs websense!

also known as "get to work you unproductive bas.tards!" :D

I'm at home. I just got "http://www.smh.com.au not found." But I tried it again now and it works.

I know the difference between a websense block and a dead link. I also know how to bypass websense with google's URL language translator :)

[Becca]

I'm with Jack. From what I read and saw in the ninja section of the Tokyo Edomura museum which admittedly is a rather cheesy theme park reconstruction of a part of old Edo despite having some rather splendidly made buildings, they were largely guerillas.

The whole thing about samurai honour is that it could be made to agree with anything... it wasn't all so dyed in the wool. There were plenty of samurai who thought the hagakure was nonsense, plenty of lazy and devious samurai, and plenty of thugs. Samurai could do anything they liked but public face was all-important.

The most important point about ninja is that they operated in secret (obvious but needs restating in context!). There were more techniques to run away and more techniques to hide than there were to fight, according to that museum. There was even (and this is my favourite) an explosive designed to kill the ninja and blow away his face in case he was going to get caught.

Almost certainly some ninja came from the samurai class, almost certainly some were just hired thugs, and almost certainly some were really really good well trained assassins and guerillas.

Interesting idea Starchaser, but it's perhaps most unlikely that ninja included ronin. Ronin were masterless, and generally disgraced samurai, and generally would not have had the access to the kind of power needed to give orders, or to the training cults.

Am also agreeing. What most people are passing off as "ninjitsu" is not what it used to be, traditionally speeking. What it is now is either pure rubbish, Ninpo-based juijitsu, or a homebrew type thing made by someone who knew a fair bit of fighting technique and read too many trashy JMA articals as a kid.

[red5angel]

ninja were not samurai.

samurai was upper caste warriors of feudal japan.

ninjas were who they hired to carry out deeds that they could not because of their honour code. So if a samurai had to do something dishonourable, he could not and therefore would hire a ninja instead.

a ninja could be anyone. willing to do the job, generally, they would need a little skill if they were gonna take on assassination stuff. BUt, they were more like hired goons in western senses. "Honourable" was NOT part of their code... in fact, they didn't have a code at all really and were not even close to samurai in status.


Actually it's a common belief that many samurai took sabbaticals to learn the arts of the so called ninja and to practice them for a time.

[David Jamieson]

red-

It's also a common belief that you are a midget with tendencies towards the taboo.

Can you indicate some reference material for that please?

thanks

[David Jamieson]

I don't have any evidence, but I lean more toward the idea that ninjutsu was nothing more sophisticated or esoteric than guerilla warfare tactics. The Samurai had no code which would have prohibited the use of stealth and the same guys who did the soldiering by day did it at night as well.

Dude, to be a Samurai wasn't just walking around in laquered armour lopping peoples heads off.

they had very strict codes of honour. They did not employ stealth or kill like that. They did it up front and in your face. It was absolutely necessary that you see exactly who it was that was sending you to the heavens or the hells.

there are literally reems and reems of documentation and information regarding the codes of the samurai, the courts who utilized them and even down to the names of each man, his deeds and where he stood in the overall order of things.

[red5angel]

red-

It's also a common belief that you are a midget with tendencies towards the taboo.

Can you indicate some reference material for that please?

thanks


I can't recall the name of the books offhand but I'll get them for you. I just got done a month ago studying up on the Samurai for a personal project and that piece of information was indicated in more then one. The logic is sound, Samurai dedicated their lives to the art of war and often spent a lot of their time learning the arts of their potential enemies. Many samurai spent a lot of time going from school to school to learn different variations of an art and so on. It stands to reason that some of them would choose to learn the arts of the ninja.


One of those books went so far as to cite the first "ninja", a story of two Samurai who snuck in to an enemies complex, but then made the fatal mistake of announcing their arrival.

As for codes and all that, "Strict" is pretty subjective. While most Samurai tried to live strictly by a code and there were tons of rules that they were supposed to live by, adherence to them wasn't exactly strict or ubiquitous. It was however pretty common that Samurai considered it highly dishonorable to kill your opponent without warning. It however, was apparently ok to have your opponent kiled by assassins.

[David Jamieson]

I can't recall the name of the books offhand but I'll get them for you. I just got done a month ago studying up on the Samurai for a personal project and that piece of information was indicated in more then one. The logic is sound, Samurai dedicated their lives to the art of war and often spent a lot of their time learning the arts of their potential enemies. Many samurai spent a lot of time going from school to school to learn different variations of an art and so on. It stands to reason that some of them would choose to learn the arts of the ninja.

agreed, it was necessary for warriors to learn the warriors profession through the study of various ryu. They needed to know how to ride, how to be proficient at archery, how to be proficient with the swords the carried and how to fight without weapons. But the stealth stuff, I am not so sure about.

I would agree that perhaps in some areas it was a non-noble who was a martial arts master and as he was not bound by codes (being a commoner and all) he may be hired to both teach a samurai in whatever it was he specialized in, say Ninpo for example, or perhaps even swordplay, but 'ninja' arts is a misnomer outside of this very superficial context.

the 'ninja' were not formally organized in anyway, they were hired goons as I stated before and commoners who were subjects of the courts as opposed to the samurai who were integral parts of the courts, or in the case of Ronin, warriors who were looking for a court to serve.

The idea of ninjas being organized and practicing codified and structured ryu of martial arts is a little far fetched. BUt without a doubt there were commoners who had great skill and that may have at times been employed to carry out deeds for the nobility. Very much like Knights errant. But, sometimes a ninja could be defined as something as lowly as an informant who listens to conversations they shouldn't and so on. and so, with only the skill to quitely creep up under a window and sit and listen, one could be defined as a ninja.

[red5angel]

I think the stealth stuff was a side effect of a samurais interest in the fighting arts of the ninja. As I understand it, you couldn't just learn the fighting arts of the ninja, you had to become ninja.
There was a specific story about a particular samurai whose name I can't remember, only that it started with a T. Anyway, he took a 10 year sabbatical and while he never admitted to it, it is claimed that for that ten years he trained and worked as a ninja.
As for ninja organizations and training - again, I can't remember the names they were called in japan but I don't like that particular name, the images it gives are too inaccurate. A few of the books got into some of the ninja training and again as I understadn it, they had their own ryu and schools for training, and along the way some of it became codified and training regimens were laid out, not just for fighting but for the sneakiness. Essentialy they came to be modelled like smaller Samurai clan.

[Mr Punch]

Dude, ...reems and reems of ... Bull****! :D

Not much offence or anything but... Dude, that's romantic bull****. What the hell have you read?

If it's just Inobe's 'Bushido' and 'The Hagakure' I suggest you wake up and smell the coffee. You could start by reading Turnbull's 'The Samurai' and take it from there. Nobody over here believes in that honour nonsense, they just nod and smile when some loud ignorant foreigner comes out with it. Unfortunately, the book I'd love to refer you to is only in Japanese.

The Samurai were not a distinct class for a start: they lasted for 900 years and over many mutations. And there was never an end to back-stabbing scumbags either. The honour gag was largely sculpted in the later Tokugawa Period, in a romantic splurge to keep the peace.

[red5angel]

Turnbull's book was one of those I was thinking of. That's the one with the story about the guy who took 10 years off being a samurai to go ninja.


Mat - The samurai weren't a distinct class? Everything I've read indicates they were. Even Turnbull when speaking of female samurai refers quite a few times to women of the samurai class.

[Mr Punch]

Jeez, no soon as I've posted and it goes on and on...

Kung Lek, my man, you are making this up as you go along! :p


I would agree that perhaps in some areas it was a non-noble who was a martial arts master and as he was not bound by codes (being a commoner and all) he may be hired to both teach a samurai in whatever it was he specialized inSensei even nowadays is a very powerful word, with 'reems' of respect. In those days more so. Commoners were not allowed to teach any ranking samurai. There are of course a few examples, but we are maybe talking chraitably of two or three. The most famous was of course Musashi who was low-ranking, but legend has it that he was pipped at the post that Yagyu took, and that is why he retired a hermit... because he couldn't gain access to the highest ranking samurai, even with his renown.


the 'ninja' were not formally organized in anyway, they were hired goons as I stated before and commoners who were subjects of the courts as opposed to the samurai who were integral parts of the courts, or in the case of Ronin, warriors who were looking for a court to serve.You stated this before, about them 'just being hired goons', true. You don't give any reason for this belief. Go on, point me to a book. There were ryu. They are documented. Start with Hattori Hanzou (he's not just a character from Kill Bill you know!:p ) who was a renowned master of the first ryu to become public, and was hounded for this indiscretion.

And I'd love for you to tell me what these courts were you are talking about... The only courts that mattered were the samurai courts and they were the ones doing the hiring of these 'goons'. And in their jobs as spies, they also held many of these courts' ears, so your comment about them being subject as opposed to being an integral part is in itself moot.

[Mr Punch]

Mat - The samurai weren't a distinct class? Everything I've read indicates they were. Even Turnbull when speaking of female samurai refers quite a few times to women of the samurai class.Sorry, I wasn't being clear enough: yes they were a distinct class in terms of a sociological heirarchy, but no they weren't a distinct class over time. The codes of the samurai changed greatly depending on the power of the Emperor, the power of the Shoguns, the religious affiliation of the Shoguns, and individual Daimyo had their own takes. So yes, they were a distinct sociological class, but their ideas of honour were not a constant: they were in flux for at least 600 of their 900 years.

[red5angel]

gotcha! That gels more with my current understanding.

[David Jamieson]

Jeez, no soon as I've posted and it goes on and on...

Kung Lek, my man, you are making this up as you go along! :p

Sensei even nowadays is a very powerful word, with 'reems' of respect. In those days more so. Commoners were not allowed to teach any ranking samurai. There are of course a few examples, but we are maybe talking chraitably of two or three. The most famous was of course Musashi who was low-ranking, but legend has it that he was pipped at the post that Yagyu took, and that is why he retired a hermit... because he couldn't gain access to the highest ranking samurai, even with his renown.

You stated this before, about them 'just being hired goons', true. You don't give any reason for this belief. Go on, point me to a book. There were ryu. They are documented. Start with Hattori Hanzou (he's not just a character from Kill Bill you know!:p ) who was a renowned master of the first ryu to become public, and was hounded for this indiscretion.

And I'd love for you to tell me what these courts were you are talking about... The only courts that mattered were the samurai courts and they were the ones doing the hiring of these 'goons'. And in their jobs as spies, they also held many of these courts' ears, so your comment about them being subject as opposed to being an integral part is in itself moot.

Mat, you don't think tere were courts in Japan? I woudl ask, what have you been reading. I'm not talking about judicial courts. I am not drawing information from half baked martial arts books either. I'm drawing inofrmation from all sorts of places. From the ROM museum, to historical surveys, to actual history itself. YOu don't think samurai were more or less a noble caste? I ask again what are you reading? where are you getting your info from.

Have you ever read "The Tale of Genji" for instance? This is the stuff of history. And if you can get your hands on a translated copy of it, it will give you glimpses into the court life of Japan. It is in essence a Japanese literary clasica and one of teh worlds very first major novels. It is a historical fiction piece, but very enlightening stuff covering 11th century Japan.

As for the samurai and their rise, this occured following the "golden Heian age".

The imperial courts were the core of refined arts such as painting, poetry, calligraphy and the arts in general in many forms, but the reality of life was wars all over the empire. This was 11th century japan. The ability to be a soldier was more integral than the ability to write poems now and the very first mounted knights started making their appearance in Japan as the Imperial courts centralized government began it's own implosion.

the feudal age of japan began in and around 1150 and with it came the samurai. These samurai lasted about 700 years and not 900 as you have stated, not sure where you got you info there, but it historically incorrect.

There is indeed reems of information regarding Japanese history and its players. Let's not forget the level of detail of cannonization and codification that these people went to in order to define themselves as a civilization.

The Fujiwara Clan, the Minamoto and Taira clans, these really are only a couple of examples of richly documented families.

Regarding the word samurai, the word itself is filled with meaning that is extended to courts, loyalty and the position of the person who retains the title.
It literally means "One who serves". No matter what the samurais circumstance it is well known that they were all bound by the same code of absolute loyalty to their leaders. Nothing came between a samurai and his duty to his master, not even his own family.

They were by anyone's definition a warrior caste. Even as early as the 12th century, there were established rules of being a samurai and they were definitely set apart from the rest of the population bu these rules. ONly they could weild teh weapons for instance of their caste. Only they could have the long swords, only they could carry two swords, oters who were not samurai who did not adhere to that and that were found out, usually were immediately put to death for their indiscretion.

The very first Shogun of Japan was Minamoto Toritomo, it was he who set up the first military government in Japan in 1185 and it was his devised system that was the underpinnings of the way of life of the samurai for the next 7 centuries. Japan was not really a nation a nation during the feudal wars except that every japanese knew who teh emperor was and that the emperor was divine, but it was a set of feudal and warring factions. With teh Minamoto Clan defeating the Taira Clan we see everything about the samurai falling into place and taking hold.

Don't make them out to be a bunch of disparate guys, they were very organized and they had hard and fast rules to live by that did not shift focus much from the original establishment of the caste right up until it's collapse in the mid 19th century.

If there is any otehr stuff that is hard history and not later retellings let me know, I have access to quite a lot of material. seriously.

regards

[SanSoo Student]

Ninjas like to drip poison down on sleeping people for assassination :D

[Mr Punch]

Mat, you don't think tere were courts in Japan? Find in my post where I said that.
YOu don't think samurai were more or less a noble caste? OK, sooo, tell me in my post where I said that...


I'm not talking about judicial courts.See, you didn't say what courts you were talking about, and this statement doesn't either. So since most of your 'information' is erroneous, I thought I would ask (see my post: ask! I asked!) what courts you thought you were talking about.

The Imperial court's influence is known to have been 'omote': the front, the surface, the figureheads and the lipservice. Powerful sure, but the daimyos', the shoguns' and the high-ranking samurai's courts were the places where the policy was shaped, the scheming was done, the subterfuge planned.


I am not drawing information from half baked martial arts books either. I'm drawing inofrmation from all sorts of places. From the ROM museum, to historical surveys, to actual history itself.Save all this ****, it won't work on me pal, tell me what you got from where, just a couple of instances. Eg, what 'historical surveys' have you read first hand? If you can't even read and comprehend my post, why should I rely on you to tell me your version of history?! :D

And if you are implying that I got my info from half-baked martial arts books, look see where I'm living and then tell me how many times you've visited the Imperial Palace in Kyoto with its historical guides in English and (more informative) in Japanese, tell me how many times you've been to the sword museum in Yoyogi, how direct descendants of samurai families (who also happen to be published historians on medieval Japan and contemporary England) you've learned kendo and been introduced to iaido by, and how many direct descendants of high-ranking samurai you are engaged to (well, ok you got my bluff there, it's only one with me! :D)...


Have you ever read "The Tale of Genji" for instance?I've read it in English, I've started reading it in modern Japanese and have had an introduction to it in classical Japanese (it's difficult!), and not only that fanboy, but I've acted in a dramatization of it in Japanese... so save it!

Now that's the ****ing contest over with, dry yourself off, and let's look at the rest of your post.:p


The imperial courts ...Imperial courts centralized government began it's own implosion.No argument with you there. But then again, you haven't provided any evidence for your previous statements or against mine. In the roots of what you have written I suggest you look at the relationship between the imperial courts and the shogunates before you start trying to understand the relationship between the samurai and the ninja.


the feudal age of japan began in and around 1150 and with it came the samurai. These samurai lasted about 700 years and not 900 as you have stated, not sure where you got you info there, but it historically incorrect.The origins of the samurai and even the word go back further; not fully fledged samurai, but their closest antecedants go back pretty much to Shotoku Taishi's treatise in Japan's first constitution and maybe further. This is widely accepted by Japanese scholars.

None of the rest of your post addresses the relationship between samurai and ninja either, though it is correct in fact, if a little wonky in interpretation.

And before you accuse me of being angry... I'm not; I'm delighted that I'm just in a place where what little I know happens to outweigh the even less that you know!!! :D

[David Jamieson]

Mat, something is skewed about your history. I got the goods, I sayeth the correctage and you my friend are wrong.

regarding your comment on courts:


Mat said:And I'd love for you to tell me what these courts were you are talking about... The only courts that mattered were the samurai courts

That is just wrong. The courts I am talking about were the Imperial Courts. There were no "samurai courts". The imperial courts were those of teh emperor himself and the shoguns who kept court.

The scholarly agreement regarding the official period of the samurai is agreed upon as 1156, i was being open by lettiung it go back another 6 years. the establishment of the role of Shogun was 1185.

I did say that previous to this, there were some mounted knights wandering around, but the were not "samurai" until the military government system was established.

Regarding the samurai as a distinct class:

mat said:Sorry, I wasn't being clear enough: yes they were a distinct class in terms of a sociological heirarchy, but no they weren't a distinct class over time. The codes of the samurai changed greatly depending on the power of the Emperor, the power of the Shoguns, the religious affiliation of the Shoguns, and individual Daimyo had their own takes. So yes, they were a distinct sociological class, but their ideas of honour were not a constant: they were in flux for at least 600 of their 900 years.

The part i've bolded is a half truth, upon their establishment as a warrior caste, that caste held from beginning to end for the entire 700 years of the samurais in japan. there was no flux in the caste, there was no change in the code of honour or loyalty (mostly loyalty) a samurai could be poor or a man of means, but you are making it sound like they were shifting all over the place like sand in wind, and they were not. Samurai were samurai were samurai.

Mat, not saying you're angry, just saying you're arguing for the sake of arguing.
My point was that too many people think Ninjas are more than what they really were. You are trying to somehow support that.

I can show factual information that Ninja are more myth than reality and the trend to wear black outfits ala ashida kim and merge samurai concept with ninja concept is a modern blur thing. They were utterly and totally different.

In many ways the perception is like the mish mash that is happening with kungfu where you see people call something kungfu, but it is not chinese martial arts at all. You have demands for loyalty from western sifus who have a japanese outlook on what it is to be a sifu.

all these erroneous things and more come from simply not reading a book or two and clearly understanding it's context and contents.

But if arguments like this spur you on to go find out, then it is a good thing.

Hired goons they(ninjas) were. My statement stands. :p

[Oso]

.....




but, anyway....ok, so anyone buy the link between Japanese Ninjitsu and Chinese Vagabond Style made in Leung Ting's book "Skills of the Vagabonds"?

[red5angel]

Mat, not saying you're angry, just saying you're arguing for the sake of arguing.
My point was that too many people think Ninjas are more than what they really were. You are trying to somehow support that.

I can show factual information that Ninja are more myth than reality and the trend to wear black outfits ala ashida kim and merge samurai concept with ninja concept is a modern blur thing. They were utterly and totally different.


what exactly, in your opinion Kung Lek, were the ninja? It's irrefutable fact that there were ninja "clans" or ryu. While they didn't have a severe impact on the politics of the time periods they existed in, they participated in various military and political maneuverings.

The balck costumes come from stage performances later in Japanese history.

[Mr Punch]

The courts I am talking about were the Imperial Courts. There were no "samurai courts". The imperial courts were those of teh emperor himself and the shoguns who kept court.Thank you for finally telling me what courts you were going on about. You wrote about 'the Imperial court' which is not the same as what you're saying now... now you have pluralized it and are including the shoguns. How nice. By samurai courts, I was talking about the shoguns, and also the courts of the lesser ranking samurai (note I'm saying lesser as in lesser than the shogun, not as in low ranking): courts being places where they... er, held court. So I'm happy you have now decided to agree with me.


The scholarly agreement regarding the official period of the samurai is agreed upon as 1156, i was being open by lettiung it go back another 6 years. the establishment of the role of Shogun was 1185. This is what I'm saying when I ask you what you are reading that gives you 'the scholarly agreement'! Just give me one source, that's all I ask! If it's a scholarly agreement you must be able to name one book where scholars have agreed...?! :D Just one! You can do it! Tell you what, you can go away and research it, cos I'm not gonna be around for a while!

So what are you talking about with the 'official period of the samurai'? You do realize;

1) The word samurai was not even used until the (forget the name)-Momoyama Period of Oda Nobunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi which was about 30 years ending in 1600?
2) That the first shogun was established in the reign of Kammu who died around 800?

You seem to mistaking the establishment of the samurai for the shogunate starting in the Kamakura Period (1192 - I know that one off the top of my head! いい国作ろう！Ii kuni tsukurou! Ii kuni being a pun on 1-1-9-2 and 'good country').

Well, not only were there shoguns before then (I can think of two who were very powerful and who wielded considerable influence) but the elite who became known as the samurai had already been established by the end of the Heian Period: their weapons, their armour, the start of the code of bushido. And they had been recruited from thugs, mercenaries and guards.


there was no flux in the caste, there was no change in the code of honour or loyalty (mostly loyalty) a samurai could be poor or a man of means, but you are making it sound like they were shifting all over the place like sand in wind, and they were not. Samurai were samurai were samurai.Again, you are not telling me where this is coming from. The samurai changed considerably. The bushido code was only formalised in the peaceful time of the Edo Period. IThe supposition that it was the norm among samurai was a myth to romanticize the bored, effete or bullying class that they had become. Many of them ignored it completely.

As for the ninja, there is a prominent folk story that Minamoto no Yo****sune was trained as one. Whilst this is most likely nonsense it suggests that there influence was already quite extensive by the time of the Kamakura Period. Shotoku Taishi's establishment of the buddhist orders as close to the emperor back in the 8th century was probably responsible for the growth in subterfuge and backstabbing.

The ninja grew hand in hand with the samurai, and were only really separated when there was peace in the Edo Period, and the samurai wanted to create their honourable image, at a time when the ninja were no longer needed.


I can show factual information that Ninja are more myth than reality...Very Yoda! With you it's always 'I can show factual info' but you never do do you!?:D

I'm arguing not because I like it particularly, but because you're talking bollocks.

[Mr Punch]

...but, anyway....ok, so anyone buy the link between Japanese Ninjitsu and Chinese Vagabond Style made in Leung Ting's book "Skills of the Vagabonds"?Haven't read it, but since I'm arguing pointlessly it seems I'll say No.

Leung Ting seems to like spurious semi-historical links,a s can be seen by his attempt to link wing chun with muay thai that seems to have fallen out of favour now.

[David Jamieson]

mat-

we are running around the same apple tree here calling it an apple tree.

yeesh.

I disagree with some of your "facts", I am not adverse to given sources, I have indeed done so.

Anyway, we continue when you get back.
Until then, ninjas as they are currently portrayed in teh modern conception is a complete misconception.

[red5angel]

Again, you are not telling me where this is coming from. The samurai changed considerably. The bushido code was only formalised in the peaceful time of the Edo Period. IThe supposition that it was the norm among samurai was a myth to romanticize the bored, effete or bullying class that they had become. Many of them ignored it completely.


Mat, would it be more true to say that the Samurai had a code, but it for the most part only applied to the Samurai class? Of course how consistantly they stuck to it is determined by human nature - meaning as human beings, even well trained and sometimes, not always, well disciplined strayed from how they are supposed to behave.

[Shaolinlueb]

the only good ninja is a dead ninja... or a nacho ninjette ;) :D