Tong Long Fighting Forms

[ironfenix]

Here's a question: Should your movement when practicing forms be different than when you are fighting? Should your Postures be different between the two?
israel

[BeiTangLang]

My opinion?

The forms are guidelines for strategy, theory & technique linkage.

If we were only to fight strictly the way the form is run, mantis would have died out from being too predictable.

Postures in fighting will be determined on where you are, your opponent & actual technique ending point locations rather than theoretical ones.


When doing the forms, practice doing the form perfect.
When fighting, to h@ll with the forms; if you don't have the skills from doing the sets, 2-man drill & sparring, trying to remember a form to fight with will just get your b#tt kicked.

Best wishes,
~BTL

[ironfenix]

Thanks BTL! I was reading somewhere the other day and read about a different way where there is a union between forms and fighting. I thought that would be a good topic for discussion.

I used to train a system that was very linear and every stance was exageratingly low. Strikes were also exagerated and very long. On top of this I the student was expected to come up with my own applications to the movements. On top of this we also trained in some Israeli/bruce lee mix. What I noticed was when we sparred, I never saw anyone take the postures that we would in the forms. Everybody just stuck with the other stuff yet we were a praying mantis school.

I think that the forms should be as real as possible and stick with the theories and principles of praying mantis. Movement fast and transitions fluid from one move to the next, this way a person becomes a much better fighter in a shorter time. Two man sets are great, but when your system only has one and the moves practiced do not resemble the ones in the regular class then I guess you are in trouble. Also having a school that trains forms hard to see how perfectly square one can look while doing them is a waste in my opinion.

Anyway these are just my thoughts,

[Paul T England]

To me the forms are like standing on a surf board on the sand. Fighting and sparring to some extent are like trying to stay standing while in the water. You need the forms are pointers and training methods but when you add movement and resistance into the mix the variables are limitless.

Saying that I believe in working the percentages, go for the techniques, positions and angles that are proven over and over again. I think some of the combos in the mantis forms show this well.

As a side note I teach/train in wing chun and mantis and when sparring against the wing chun guys I find some of the round punch combos work very well as long as you use the other hand to trap and control the wing chun man's straight blasts.

[BeiTangLang]

Thanks BTL! I was reading somewhere the other day and read about a different way where there is a union between forms and fighting. I thought that would be a good topic for discussion.

There should be a union of forms & fighing!
But there is also such thing as variables & this point is the one where the union just becomes guidelines.
I agree,...Good topic.



I used to train a system that was very linear and every stance was exageratingly low. Strikes were also exagerated and very long. On top of this I the student was expected to come up with my own applications to the movements. On top of this we also trained in some Israeli/bruce lee mix. What I noticed was when we sparred, I never saw anyone take the postures that we would in the forms. Everybody just stuck with the other stuff yet we were a praying mantis school.

Sounds like an interesting place....but if a place is using jkd concepts & Israeli fighting techniques as a mantis school; for sure its time to bail the h@ll out....unless a you're looking for such a school.... :)




I think that the forms should be as real as possible and stick with the theories and principles of praying mantis. Movement fast and transitions fluid from one move to the next, this way a person becomes a much better fighter in a shorter time. Two man sets are great, but when your system only has one and the moves practiced do not resemble the ones in the regular class then I guess you are in trouble. Also having a school that trains forms hard to see how perfectly square one can look while doing them is a waste in my opinion.

Anyway these are just my thoughts,

I don't quite get what you mean by "real" forms. All forms are real....I've even seen some really bad ones :D

All the hand-forms that I have seen in our system stick with technique, theory & principles of mantis. You have some that are not??

2-man sets are ok; but I find myself using 2-man drills more often.
A person is not going to be a better fighter from doing forms better/faster/smoother, but from practicing the movements themselves on a training partner: Slow & perfect, medium & perfect, then fast & perfect.

Having the 6 harmonies lined up in your stances is a worthy cause. Saying that is is pointles is like saying that practicing footwork & stances are a waste. Body structure is just as important!

Best Wishes,
~BTL

[sayloc]

In my opinion to become a good fighter you must develop yourself in some basic areas such as: cardio, timing, coordination, speed, power, footwork and "fightiing attitude". These are covered in the five external elements of fighting in praying Mantis. Then we have the five internal elements , which can be a little more indepth.

I believe we can get all of the above along with the 12 word formulae and all of the other theories out of our forms. That is why they were developed. After you have learned the form they become like "living manuals" as they are perfected.

If I understand correctly the ling sets were developed later in mantis history. I believe this was to help the student get a better understanding of the mantis theory and application. I do not believe that if a technique is applied one way in a form or two person set it was intended to be "the only" application for that move. We still have to think.

You still have to do some free fighting or sanshou if you want to be able to defend yourself..

[ironfenix]

BTL, there were some stuff that was taught to me that resembled hung style and the movement didn't resemble some of the mantis stuff I had seen elsewhere (footwork, stances, etc). Now I have learned that you can take a good mantis form and break that down into dozens of two man drills and excercises. Yes i believe that two man drills work the best.
I know that forms have to be tweeked when an actual punch is coming at you, but what I mean is, is it really necesarry to take a cat/void stance so low that you fit under a table when you do praying mantis catches a cicada in the forms? I've seen guys, myself included, who would do forms and take ridiculous stances and exagerate the movement without the slightest thought to there application. When I "modified" my movement to mimic what I did in the two man drills, then I noticed I was faster and was flowing more not to mention everything now made sense. :)

[BeiTangLang]

Maybe thats just a "family" difference. The heights of our forms are right where I use them in real-time. If you get a chance, take a look at the WHF books & you will see what I'm talking about.
As far as doing the sets _that_ low goes, everyone has their own opinions on why & I'm not going to debate them on it. It doesn't matter because its not me doing it! :D

[ironfenix]

BTL yours then must trully be a mantis style. What's more it seems you agree with that union of form and application, of movement with practicality. What's more if you only have 3 sets like Wong Long did, then you are pretty much going to be really good at your fighting.
What I am posing for discussion is should there be the union, where the practitioner doing forms looks like he's fighting and the teacher teaches application and it will result in minimal changes, or is better to take hide the applications til they prove their worth and until then just teach them in a way they would never figure it out themselves?
Israel

[BeiTangLang]

Yes, it is truely a mantis style, but I think you are missing my position on your question.

1."should there be the union, where the practitioner doing forms looks like he's fighting and the teacher teaches application". As a flat answer to your question, Yes.

"and it will result in minimal changes" : It should not change if you are doing the form from how you would apply it in a fight. (IMHO) Others may add a a movement in or add there own personal flair to a form during performance times though.

2."or is better to take hide the applications til they prove their worth and until then just teach them in a way they would never figure it out themselves?"

You know, this is one of those "What your sifu wants to do" kind of thing. For me when I help someone learn a form, I give theme a basic "foe" model for their minds to use to apply the techniques of the form. This allows them to know what & where they are going next & why. It's basicly a 2-person form with only 1 person performing it. This is the way all forms I have seen are.

Now, do I show them all the options of that technique? No. Show them multiple techniques it can feed into? No.

"Hide the technique"......What the??? What are the students coming to learn praying mantis for?? What good reason could anyone think of to hide a single basic technique from a student learning that form? I mean, if they are not trust-worthy enough to be shown the basic techniques of a form, What are you doing teaching them the form to begin with??

I hope I came closer to what you were after this time.
I'll shut up now so others can chime in.

Best Wishes,
~BTL

P.S.
:D
I wish we only had 3 forms! LOL!

[BeiTangLang]

After that the whold forms no long be important in your mind and you'll no longer be the slave of your style.


??? Rewind & re-splain Lucy!!

[tanglang69]

Come on ironfenix just tell everyone what style your are talking about. Just come out of the wah lum closet.

See, ironfenix and myself, come from the same sifu. I studied under Pablo Zamora for 13 years and left 7 years ago. Ironfenix started 5 or 6 years ago and left last year. He has started his own school which is doing pretty well for being open for 4 months.

Ironfenix, when you come out and say what style of mantis you studied, then certain people can understand what you are talking about.

Well gotta go for now.

See you later israel.

Oved

PS
When are you going to bring Art down? :)

[ironfenix]

Hey Oved! what's going on brother. Yeah my sihing has alot more stories then I do. Well at least we know what I used to do now. But I have seen some hua lin guys play their forms and it looks like they are actually fighting with some one normal (ie not the oompa loompas) so I don't think the style is wrong. But then I have seen guys from different mantis sects who play their forms like they are dancing and just going through the rountines. "It's not the moves, it's how you move" is my favorite Arthurism.
israel