Star Wars Episode III (Spoilers, Questions & Answers)

[Judge Pen]

My sources tell me that the rumor of the scene of Yoda ****ing was false.

[Vash]

Kevin Smith sucks dead donkey balls.

And likes it.

[MasterKiller]

My sources tell me that the rumor of the scene of Yoda ****ing was false.
They are wrong. It was in the first cut of the movie, but probably wasn't meant to be permanent. Lucas develops all sorts of test scenes for things like lighting, etc. that never make it into the films.

[Judge Pen]

Well as long as it's not in the final cut.

Do you have copies of Magnoliafan's edits? How could one see a version? I did the google search, but found mainly forum discussions that I didn't want to sort through.

[MasterKiller]

Do I have a copy of the edits?

You're asking me if I have a copy?

Me?

Actually, I don't anymore.

Use the Bittorent, Luke.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah I'm asking you. Your the go to guy for Kung-fu/star wars geeks. :D

Dumb question: WTF is Bittorent?

[MasterKiller]

File swapping program. Great for transferring large files quickly.

[red5angel]

sounds vaguely familiar but I may have written it off as rumor. OF course I don't mind the movies as they are now. Too bad he didn't edit ROTJ and take out all the ewoks.

[Shaolinlueb]

yo MK this has been bugging me. or anyone else who can answer. how does count dooku fall to the darkside? he seems like a pretty educated jedi. is there something lucas isnt telling us? was he a dark jedi before maul and darth maul was just a pawn?

[MasterKiller]

Dooku doesn't fall to the darkside like everyone else. He becomes disenchanted with the Republic when he hears of Qui-Gon's death, so he actively seeks out Darth Sidious because he wants to become more powerful. There was this whole sub-plot about "The Lost Twenty," a group of the most powerful Jedi that left the order shortly after Episode I, but Lucas cut that and put the droid factory scene in it's place. Syfo-Dias, the guy who ordered the clone army, was one of them.

[Judge Pen]

Dooku doesn't fall to the darkside like everyone else. He becomes disenchanted with the Republic when he hears of Qui-Gon's death, so he actively seeks out Darth Sidious because he wants to become more powerful. There was this whole sub-plot about "The Lost Twenty," a group of the most powerful Jedi that left the order shortly after Episode I, but Lucas cut that and put the droid factory scene in it's place. Syfo-Dias, the guy who ordered the clone army, was one of them.

Think Vader hunts them down too?

[MasterKiller]

Think Vader hunts them down too? Well, after the Clone Wars, very few Force sensitives are allowed to live, so anyone that survives gets hunted down.

But as far as I know, the lost twenty pretty much die in the Clone Wars. Dooku kills Syfo-Dias himself after he learns about the order for the Clone Army. Dooku really wants to bring down the Republic. The corruption disgusts him.

Syfo-Dias, on the other hand, secretly just wants to restore the Republic to it's former glory. He orders the Clone Army as a protective measure against Dooku, so Dooku kills him.

Some Jedi defect to Dooku's side during the Clone Wars because they don't like the Republic. Others fall to the darkside completely. So, a lot of Jedi get pasted by other Jedi during this time.

[Shaolinlueb]

Well, after the Clone Wars, very few Force sensitives are allowed to live, so anyone that survives gets hunted down.

But as far as I know, the lost twenty pretty much die in the Clone Wars. Dooku kills Syfo-Dias himself after he learns about the order for the Clone Army. Dooku really wants to bring down the Republic. The corruption disgusts him.

Syfo-Dias, on the other hand, secretly just wants to restore the Republic to it's former glory. He orders the Clone Army as a protective measure against Dooku, so Dooku kills him.

Some Jedi defect to Dooku's side during the Clone Wars because they don't like the Republic. Others fall to the darkside completely. So, a lot of Jedi get pasted by other Jedi during this time.

so the real question is, does vader and the emperor really kill all jedi. cause it seems in the comic that one or two pop up here and there. mostly dark jedi or jedi that dont like the old republic.

[MasterKiller]

There are lots and lots of people born with Force sensitivity. In fact, everyone technically is sensitive; but the Jedi are super-sensitive and trained to use it. So, they can't possibly kill every single person in the galaxy that exhibits some extra-sensitivity. What they do is kill as many trained Jedi as possible to prevent them from training others. The Emperor and Vader believe they kill everyone. Yoda thinks he is the last one. But the truth is, there are others out there, and they surface from time to time.

As a side note, the Emperor secretly trains a hot red-headed assassin named Mara Jade behind Vader's back. She is not as powerful as Vader, but the Emperor knows sooner or later Vader will make a power-play for the throne and he'll have to kill Vader, so he keeps Mara around to be his next apprentice. He even sends her out to kill Luke after Vader fails to capture him in ESB.

Luke eventually turns her, and they get it on and make Jedi babies.

[red5angel]

Dooku doesn't fall to the darkside like everyone else. He becomes disenchanted with the Republic when he hears of Qui-Gon's death, so he actively seeks out Darth Sidious because he wants to become more powerful. There was this whole sub-plot about "The Lost Twenty," a group of the most powerful Jedi that left the order shortly after Episode I, but Lucas cut that and put the droid factory scene in it's place. Syfo-Dias, the guy who ordered the clone army, was one of them.


where are you getting this info? Another EU source? I know someone who might be interested in this stuff but I'd like to know where it's coming from.

I don't think education or intelligence has anything to do with good or evil. Dooku may be intelligent but he may also crave power.

[Shaolinlueb]

There are lots and lots of people born with Force sensitivity. In fact, everyone technically is sensitive; but the Jedi are super-sensitive and trained to use it. So, they can't possibly kill every single person in the galaxy that exhibits some extra-sensitivity. What they do is kill as many trained Jedi as possible to prevent them from training others. The Emperor and Vader believe they kill everyone. Yoda thinks he is the last one. But the truth is, there are others out there, and they surface from time to time.

As a side note, the Emperor secretly trains a hot red-headed assassin named Mara Jade behind Vader's back. She is not as powerful as Vader, but the Emperor knows sooner or later Vader will make a power-play for the throne and he'll have to kill Vader, so he keeps Mara around to be his next apprentice. He even sends her out to kill Luke after Vader fails to capture him in ESB.

Luke eventually turns her, and they get it on and make Jedi babies.

I'm reading heir to the empire right now. so far so good. only got through first graphic novel. so looks like emperor is way ahead of vader then. in heir to the empire there is this one dark jedi, i forget his name, but i dont know why he wants luke. to trian or kill him, im not sure.

[MasterKiller]

where are you getting this info? Labrynth of Evil has the stuff about Syfo-Dias and Dooku's intentions, as well as how they pretty much set Grevious up as a patsy in ROTS.

[red5angel]

did you read it and was it any good?

[MasterKiller]

did you read it and was it any good?
Like pretty much all Star Wars books, the writing sucks. I skimmed it to get the details, but I wouldn't say I read it.

One of the things that kind of bugs me is in Labrynth and in the ROTS novel is that they make vague Sept. 11 references. I'm all down for the parallels between what's going on now with Bush assuming a lot of power in the White House and the Emperor's rise in popularity through a fabricated war, but I don't need it spoon-fed. I thought it was bad taste.

[red5angel]

Like pretty much all Star Wars books, the writing sucks. I skimmed it to get the details, but I wouldn't say I read it.

One of the things that kind of bugs me is in Labrynth and in the ROTS novel is that they make vague Sept. 11 references. I'm all down for the parallels between what's going on now with Bush assuming a lot of power in the White House and the Emperor's rise in popularity through a fabricated war, but I don't need it spoon-fed. I thought it was bad taste.


wtf :rolleyes:

[PHILBERT]

Ive read the book, and being someone who doesn't care for Bush, MK is right. They keep making references to "more powers" being granted to Palpatine through the book, and him not proposing them but rather someone who he controls in the Senate, etc. But in the last movie, they surrender him pretty much the entire Republic and he can do what he wants, right? So why keep putting in the novel of RotS they give him more and more power?

MK, what references to 9/11 though do you speak of?

Oh, and the only good writer for the Star Wars novels are Timothy Zahn. In fact, Zahn created Coruscaunt. It was something Lucas had proposed during the old movies, but Zahn was the first to describe it and name it. Lucas has borrowed from the EU, Chewbacca's sister is in the movie, and they use Phrik metal (from the Dark Forces games) at one point too. Heck, General Grevious is based resembles the old war droids that appeared in the classic Tales of the Jedi comics. While Zahn has also been contradicted (such as Palpatine had been a known Jedi and was trained by a guy he later cloned), he remains one of the better writers.

Also, Zahn has more than once had to clean up the EU that everyone else has seemed to of trashed. *Cough*KevinAnderson*cough*. When he wrote his last novel (name eludes me) he totally left out any mention of the Yuzzon Vong creatures, which btw should never have been created. Maybe in a video game.

[Judge Pen]

Personally I think that having Vader hunt down and kill the remaining jedi, especially other jedi that use the dark side to their advantage, would make a great TV show.

An ongoing plot would be trying to locate and kill Yoda and Obi Wan.

[MasterKiller]

Ive read the book, and being someone who doesn't care for Bush, MK is right. They keep making references to "more powers" being granted to Palpatine through the book, and him not proposing them but rather someone who he controls in the Senate, etc. But in the last movie, they surrender him pretty much the entire Republic and he can do what he wants, right? So why keep putting in the novel of RotS they give him more and more power?

MK, what references to 9/11 though do you speak of?
I guess nothing specifically, but Palpatine uses the term "Triangle of Evil" when describing some planet's affiliations with the Separatists in both the ROTS book and LOE, which is a thinly veiled reference to Bush's "Axis of Evil."

I guess that isn't really a 9/11 reference, but along with the other stuff you mentioned, it's not hard to see what they're getting at.

Lucas isn't above political statement. Star Wars was basically his take on the Vietnam War, where a bunch of peasants with crappy equipment defeated the huge mechanized American Imperials. So, I'm sure the current political references are intentional.

[PHILBERT]

MK, ah, ok. I thought your 9/11 references were about the ship crashing on Coruscaunt, and the destruction is caused the buildings with the emergency teams coming to the aid of Palpatine and the Jedi, and Mace ordering them to go find others in burning buildings. I was gonna say, cause if a ship that size crashes, it's gonna leave some destruction.

[Shaolinlueb]

so is like general grevious like osama bin laden :p ;)

[MasterKiller]

so is like general grevious like osama bin laden :p ;)

Nah...they create Grevious with the sole intent of setting him up. He doesn't know the war is fake. They keep trying to kill Obi-Wan because they know Obi-Wan is the only thing keeping Anakin under control. Remember Asaaj Ventress from the cartoon? Dooku knows she can't beat Anakin, but they think Durge can kill Obi-Wan if Anakin is distracted, so they send her out to kill Anakin knowing he'll chase her and leave Obi-Wan alone.

Grevious is just another in the long line of people Sidious uses in order to orchestrate his plan to fruition. He's also the test dummy for Vader's suit. Originally, Grevious doesn't want to lead the driod army. But he's a brilliant general and Dooku wants him, so Dooku staged a crash with Grevious' space ship so that he would be mutilated. They operate on him, build him that suit, mess with his brain a little, and set him loose with the intent to lure Obi-Wan into a fight.

[Shaolinlueb]

pretty cool.

[PHILBERT]

Wrong there MK.

Dooku is supposed to kill Obi-Wan at the beginning of EP3, remember? The set up is for Dooku to kill Obi-Wan and then get captured by Anakin, and in Anakin's frustration, Palpatine was gonna quickly stop the fight between the 2 and convert Anakin to the Dark Side on the spot. Dooku would be pardoned for his war crimes, blaming Greivous. Grevious always was the fall guy. His body suit though wasn't the test for Vader, cause Anakin was supposed to become a General in the Sith Army that Palpatine was wanting to create, and Dooku was gonna retire and spend the rest of his life richer and living in a huge mansion on his homeworld.

Dooku wasn't really all that evil. He's a great character, and I'd love to of had more of a backstory about who he was and how he came to be. Like you said before, he just knew how corrupt the Republic was, and wanted to overthrow it and establish an order with less corruption. After doing so, he was just gonna go die.

When he failed to kill Obi-Wan, he realized Palpatine was using him, and coaxed Anakin into killing Dooku in cold blood.

[Shaolinlueb]

resident star wars geek duke it out

philbert and masterkiller

with shaolinlueb and red5angel on the sidelines

[MasterKiller]

Well, like I said I didn't read the novels. I just skimmed them. After I see the movie I'll go back and iron out all the details.

[Judge Pen]

While playing the EPIII game I noticed that grevious was breathing like some ex-smoker with COPD. He didn't seem to be that way in the cartoons. Is this because of the crash that MK mentioned (and the cartoons missed that detail) or is it because of damages suffered while kidnapping Palapatine?

[PHILBERT]

Grevious was not a droid always. In the cartoon he was already converted, and as far as the voice and breathing, they didn't know how they were gonna voice Grevious when the cartoon was coming out.

[Judge Pen]

So what's the explanation for his wheezing and cough in the film?

[MasterKiller]

He's the precursor to Vader. He was a regular person who suffered a tremendous amount of physical damage and is kept alive in a cyberknetic suit. So, the wheezing is like Vader's breathing.

[Judge Pen]

Nice Q & A review from AICN:

http://www.aint-it-cool.com/display.cgi?id=20185

(Major Spoilers! It also says that Grevious cough is a result from Mace's force-grip at the end of the Clone Wars II)

[MasterKiller]

I'm just pumed the EP III DVD will contain deleted scenes of all the political stuff that explains Dooku and all Senate wrangling from the prequels.

[PHILBERT]

Sweet. Dooku is one of my favorite characters from all of Star Wars and quite possibly my favorite character from the movies. I'd love to read comics or see more that explained who he is and what he came to be.

[MasterKiller]

Yeah, I like Dooku too. His "Unleashed" figure is the coolest of them all.

I've been a Vader fan since I was 5, but Dooku is my 2nd favorite character now, just ahead of Boba Fett.

[Judge Pen]

He's cool, but his name stinks. Count Dooku? WTF?

[MasterKiller]

He's cool, but his name stinks. Count Dooku? WTF?

What????

Count Dooku is a sweeeeeet name, especially for a Christopher Lee character.

[Shaolinlueb]

I would like too see more stuff on dooku and how he came to be too. and how about some of thsoe other jedi fallen. maybe the scuffle between dooku and syfo dius. :D

[MasterKiller]

I'd like to see Dooku bend Aayla Secura over one of those Jedi meditiation bean bags and be all like "It may be difficult to secure your release from my c0ck, beyotch!"

[Judge Pen]

What????

Count Dooku is a sweeeeeet name, especially for a Christopher Lee character.

How do you figure? Because it sounds like a retarded Count Dracula?

[PHILBERT]

Judge Pen, you know what a "Count" is right? It's a formal title, like Doctor, given to the wealthy, Count of Monte Cristo. Dooku I don't think was meant as a Dracula rip off, even though Christopher Lee has played him. And about 50 other horror movies, Wolf Man, Mummy, Frankenstein, etc. Personally I think choosing Lee was the best choice. Just looking at him represents evil.

[Judge Pen]

Judge Pen, you know what a "Count" is right? It's a formal title, like Doctor, given to the wealthy, Count of Monte Cristo. Dooku I don't think was meant as a Dracula rip off, even though Christopher Lee has played him. And about 50 other horror movies, Wolf Man, Mummy, Frankenstein, etc. Personally I think choosing Lee was the best choice. Just looking at him represents evil.

I know what a Count is. I also agree that Chris Lee was the best choice. I just think his name "Dooku" sounds stupid.

In the EPIII game, after you beat Dooku, you can play as him in the duel part of the game. Very cool.

[MasterKiller]

Well, he's a real count, afterall. I'm sure Dooku is probably some variation of a Hindu or Buddhist word or something. That's where Lucas gets a lot his names.

From wikipedia because I didn't feel like typing:


Dooku left the Jedi Order when he came to the realization that it was just a blind pawn to the corrupt Senate. He retired to his family estate and assumed his hereditary title as the Count of Serreno, instantly becoming vastly wealthy. Sometime shortly after, he encountered Sidious/Palpatine and fell in step with the Sith Lord's plan to rebuild the Republic into the pure Empire. It is no coincidence that Dooku's puppets, the CIS, are almost all aliens, for Dooku is a speciest who fully intended to use that factor to usher in a Human-centric rule.

At the Battle of Coruscant, Dooku "captured" his master in an elaborate plan to be captured himself. They both knew that the only rescuers likely to arrive in time would be Kenobi and Skywalker. The plan would be for him to kill Kenobi, but be 'defeated' by Anakin. He would then, in captivity, turn on the CIS by surrendering to the Republic forces and claiming to have only recently learned of the extent of the atrocities committed by the CIS, and specifically General Grievous, who would be the perfect scapegoat on whom to hang all of the CIS's war crimes. He would later ostensibly emerge as Emperor Palpatine's right hand man in the new Empire, leading a new Sith Army of dark side force-wielders to replace the Jedi Order and bring order to the Galaxy.

JP,
Here's something for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightsaber_combat#The_seven_forms_of_lightsaber_co mbat

[Shaolinlueb]

Well, he's a real count, afterall. I'm sure Dooku is probably some variation of a Hindu or Buddhist word or something. That's where Lucas gets a lot his names.

From wikipedia because I didn't feel like typing:



JP,
Here's something for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightsaber_combat#The_seven_forms_of_lightsaber_co mbat


dude that combat light saber link is awesome! I'm such a nerd I love it.

[MasterKiller]

http://www.holonetnews.com/54

[Judge Pen]

You know, I just don't see their description of Qui-Gon's saber style as being accurate. He didn't seem to employ any fancy flipping/jumping moves in his duel with Darth Maul.

[MasterKiller]

There is a much longer scene from his first fight on Tattooine where they get fairly acrobatic. Orginally, Darth Maul follows Qui-Gon onto the Naboo ship, they fight there for a while, then Qui-Gon kicks him off and Maul lands in the sand. In the final cut, you see Qui-Gon jump, then you see Maul on the ground, without the saber fight in between.

[red5angel]

Oh, and the only good writer for the Star Wars novels are Timothy Zahn. In fact, Zahn created Coruscaunt. It was something Lucas had proposed during the old movies, but Zahn was the first to describe it and name it. Lucas has borrowed from the EU, Chewbacca's sister is in the movie, and they use Phrik metal (from the Dark Forces games) at one point too. Heck, General Grevious is based resembles the old war droids that appeared in the classic Tales of the Jedi comics. While Zahn has also been contradicted (such as Palpatine had been a known Jedi and was trained by a guy he later cloned), he remains one of the better writers.


your kidding right? Zahn didn't bother to watch the first three movies before writing his firs three SW books. The guys a fukking tard.

[MasterKiller]

Grevious was not EU inspired. They held a contest at LucasFilm to design the leader of the CIS army, and that design won. The artist said he basically sketched it at the last minute just to have something to throw in the pot, and it won.

[Shaolinlueb]

There is a much longer scene from his first fight on Tattooine where they get fairly acrobatic. Orginally, Darth Maul follows Qui-Gon onto the Naboo ship, they fight there for a while, then Qui-Gon kicks him off and Maul lands in the sand. In the final cut, you see Qui-Gon jump, then you see Maul on the ground, without the saber fight in between.


is that scene on dvd anywhere MK?

[MasterKiller]

No. I've seen the footage, but I don't remember where I saw it. Maybe it was on the Episode I guide for the PC that came out in 1999.

[red5angel]

I'd be willing to bet Count Dooku was inspired by the fact that Lee played Dracula, it almost seems too obvious to me - COUNT Dooku black and red cape....

[Shaolinlueb]

how about stories about how the jedi came to be all the 10,000 years ago when the replublic started, or where they around before the republic? eh? that would be interesting to see whats up. i know the first lightsabers had chords attached to them and were powered by back packs.

[Samurai Jack]

so why does the emperor turn all human to some gross form?

I read in one of the new sourcebooks that Yoda deflects a force-bolt into Palpetine's face. I like the "hidden agenda" idea much better, but Lucas has a way of making these things work out in less than logical ways. How come no one else has been grossly disfigured by a Sith force-bolt?

[Judge Pen]

Good question. What say you, MK?

[MasterKiller]

I don't think that's what happens, but I haven't read the book so I'm not 100% sure. As far as I know, Palps gets ugly because he taps too deeply into the Darkside during the fight, which has precedent. The Darkside corrupts people physically. You can see Palps looking worse and worse from TPM through ROTS, but it's a gradual progression. Maul has yellowed eyes and rotten teeth, Anakin gets the yellow eyes too.

But, if it's in the source book, then that's probably what happens. No one in the movies ever gets hit full on with a blast like that. They get the lightning treatment, but maybe Yoda does something to concentrate the energy.

Honestly, sometimes I think Lucas didn't even try to make things match up with the existing source material. He's like a spoiled brat that won't let you play with his ball unless you play his way.

I mean, everyone understood how the Force worked without stupid midi-chlorians. Allowing the Emperor to age because the Darkside corrupted him would have been easily accepted by the fans. For some reason, he feels like he has to explain this stupid stuff, but then he drops any explanation of Dooku's motivations from the movies so he can have a 20 minute driod factory chase because he "really wanted to see R2 fly." :rolleyes:

He doesn't even explain who Syfo-Dias was in ROTS! I mean, you bring something like that up in a movie, you really need to carry the thought through to conclusion.

[Shaolinlueb]

nice bashing on the lucas there. i agree with the spoil kid statement. he does seem like that. im reading tales of teh jedi graphic novel and then finishing up the thawn trilogy. but i cant wait to get into dark empire 1 and 2.

[Judge Pen]

As a non-EU/sourcebook reading fan, I always thought that Sifo-Dyas was a odd pronounciation for Sideous meaning that Darth Sideous ordered the clones.

[PHILBERT]

Palpatine gets all saggy faced with his fight against Mace Windu. When he attacks Mace Windu with the lightning, it gets deflected back to his face "revealing" his true self. Yoda does launch a lightning attack back at Palpatine in there fight, but it his Palpatine in the chest from the footage I saw.

[MasterKiller]

As a non-EU/sourcebook reading fan, I always thought that Sifo-Dyas was a odd pronounciation for Sideous meaning that Darth Sideous ordered the clones.
Right. In the original draft, it is Sido-Dias. But, then Lucas decided Sidious wouldn't be so blatant...he's more subtle, working behind the scenes, so he changed it to Syfo-Dias in post-production.

[SimonM]

EP 4, 6, 1: Hero uses crack piloting skills in a small, agile fighter to blow up big mothership sending enemy army into disarray and saving the day. Gets big award.

EP 5, 2, 6 (if you consider Vader to be heroc when he dumps the Emperor down the big pit): Hero has lightsaber duel against a master of the darkside, loses hand. (EP 5, 2 only) Hero is given a robotic hand at the behest of a queen/princess.

EP 6,2: Big, climactic, land battle with lots of storm troopers.

EP 6,3: Emperor shoots lightning bolts at somebody who gets rescued before he succeeds in killing them with his terrible powers.

I guess George Lucas believes in recycling.

[PHILBERT]

Or if you wanna look at it this way:

The story of Anakin Skywalker is basically the story of Luke Skywalker, except that Anakin chose the wrong path and Luke chose the right path. It is recycling but the reason so is to compare the 2.

[Judge Pen]

Juxtaposition is a common thematic element.

Luke resists because he had the love and support of friends that cared for him. Anakin was surrounded by a council of "wise" jedi that distrusted him. The only people that listened to him were Obi-Wan (sometimes, but is still seen as part of the establishment), Padme (with whom his deadly premonitions drive his desire for more power) and Palaptine, the devil himself who promises him the power he desires.

[MasterKiller]

Or if you wanna look at it this way:

The story of Anakin Skywalker is basically the story of Luke Skywalker, except that Anakin chose the wrong path and Luke chose the right path. It is recycling but the reason so is to compare the 2.

Philbert has decapitated the correct and left it's head on Palpatine's desk.

[Chief Fox]

I thought this thread was going to be about the merchandising of the Star Wars brand. George Lucas is the Bill Gates of movie merchandising.

[Shaolinlueb]

so is grevious gonna be ten feet tall like he is in the cartoon? i think the intimidating size of him makes him better. but im guessing not.

[MasterKiller]

so is grevious gonna be ten feet tall like he is in the cartoon? i think the intimidating size of him makes him better. but im guessing not.
I think he's normal size.

[Shaolinlueb]

I think he's normal size.


that kinda blows. they should have made him taller. its more intimidating. sucka's.

[Judge Pen]

From the clips of Grevious they show in the EPIII game, he's taller than a human, but not as big as he was in the cartoons.

[Judge Pen]

I know all of these "criticisms" are explained away in the literature of th eEU etc., but it's what the non-Star Wars fan seems to be confused by in the new movie"



The evil Chancellor Palpatine – who has quietly puppet-mastered an entire Galactic Republic throughout these prequels – suddenly declares "Order 66", prompting tens of thousands of "Clone Troopers" to suddenly turn on & assassinate the very Jedi they've been fighting beside for years. At face value, they murder their friends and comrades – simply because they were told to do so.
This severely dilutes the impact of the long-awaited "Jedi purge." Revenge of the Sith spends God knows how long on political and metaphysical ranting and raving, yet one line of crucial explanation would have brought greater substance and meaning to this dramatically essential event. Were the Clones imprinted with "sleeper programming" when they were hatched at the clonery (which would serve to exemplify the horrific, and boundlessly patient, depth of the Sith's long-term plans)? Does Palpatine have a brainwashing device of some sort? Is a piggy-back zombiefication code imbedded in Palpatine's trans-galactic snuff command to the Clone armies? Or, are the Clones simply brainless and stupid? If so, I'm selling a bridge in Brooklyn, and I've more than a few tasks for them...

We've been waiting for this moment since Obi-Wan Kenobi (Alec Guinness) first alluded to the fate of the Jedi in Episode IV. We see the moment, and it is well executed (excuse the pun). But we do not understand the event. It's vacuous, and feels like a plot device rather than the gut-wrenching betrayal it was clearly intended to be.



In Episode II - Attack of the Clones, Anakin Skywalker senses the torture (and impending death) of his captive mother from far across the Galaxy. He drops everything, goes to rescue her, and fails. This is a pivotal plot point in RotS.
Yet, in Sith, Anakin fails to detect the presence of the twins gestating in his wife's womb, even though he is sleeping in the same bed as the woman. Furthermore, one of these twins is eventually "hidden" on the same planet from which he detected his mother in Attack of the Clones – only this time the location is implied as remote enough to "avoid detection by the Sith." So, which is it? Thus, one of the primary dramatic thrusts of the entire franchise hinges on conceptual inconsistency and lack of internal story logic. Perhaps the Sith are as stupid as their Clones? Or, perhaps they need new writers...



In the earlier prequels, Jedi skydive from tremendous heights, dodging aerial traffic & leaping from impossibly high balconies like flying squirrels. So, how can a principal Jedi character in this film die...by falling? The same discrepancy rears its ugly head in Episode VI - Return of the Jedi, by the way. This undercuts the intent of the sequence, and the fate of the key character.




The Jedi are repeatedly able to detect unrest in The Way of Things. They can sense an individual's restless spirit, or the plight of a colleague endangered millions of miles away. Yet, they can stand in the center of their enemy's power base, and be completely blind (or only vaguely suspicious) as to who...and what...they are truly dealing with?
The Jedi make noise about their order's diminished ability to use "The Force." So, if they are aware of this shortcoming...and if the future of humanity (and the entire galaxy) is at stake...shouldn't they be a bit more proactive in figuring out what the enemy is up to?

[MasterKiller]

the Sith spends God knows how long on political and metaphysical ranting and raving, yet one line of crucial explanation would have brought greater substance and meaning to this dramatically essential event. Were the Clones imprinted with "sleeper programming" when they were hatched at the clonery (which would serve to exemplify the horrific, and boundlessly patient, depth of the Sith's long-term plans)? Does Palpatine have a brainwashing device of some sort? Is a piggy-back zombiefication code imbedded in Palpatine's trans-galactic snuff command to the Clone armies? Or, are the Clones simply brainless and stupid? If so, I'm selling a bridge in Brooklyn, and I've more than a few tasks for them... Clones are bred to follow orders, period. They can think and react spontaneously, but they will follow any order given to them by the one they recognize in command. Once Jango Fett dies, the clones are actually clones of clones, and they are even less intelligent. In the EU, these clones of clones are grow too quickly and eventually go crazy because their Force connection is so screwy. The Empire has to start recruiting regular people, which is why Luke wanted to join the Imperial Academy in ANH.

I don't see a problem with it, personally. How else is Vader going to hunt down and kill 10,000 Jedi Knights?


In Episode II - Attack of the Clones, Anakin Skywalker senses the torture (and impending death) of his captive mother from far across the Galaxy. He drops everything, goes to rescue her, and fails. This is a pivotal plot point in RotS.
Yet, in Sith, Anakin fails to detect the presence of the twins gestating in his wife's womb, even though he is sleeping in the same bed as the woman. Furthermore, one of these twins is eventually "hidden" on the same planet from which he detected his mother in Attack of the Clones – only this time the location is implied as remote enough to "avoid detection by the Sith." So, which is it? Thus, one of the primary dramatic thrusts of the entire franchise hinges on conceptual inconsistency and lack of internal story logic. Perhaps the Sith are as stupid as their Clones? Or, perhaps they need new writers... Anakin has formed an attachment to his Mother. He hasn't formed that same attachment to his children. He can only sense Leia in the womb, anyway. He doesn't know Luke even exists until he blows up the Deathstar.


In the earlier prequels, Jedi skydive from tremendous heights, dodging aerial traffic & leaping from impossibly high balconies like flying squirrels. So, how can a principal Jedi character in this film die...by falling? The same discrepancy rears its ugly head in Episode VI - Return of the Jedi, by the way. This undercuts the intent of the sequence, and the fate of the key character First off, in ROTJ Palpatine is thrown down a reactor shaft, which kills him. It's not the fall.

Second, I guess Mace is hurt too badly when Palps pushes him out to perform the acrobatic moves. Maybe by the time of the fight, his Force powers are soooo diminished he just can't muster the strength. Hell, they don't show him die. For all we know, he lived and just ran off.


The Jedi are repeatedly able to detect unrest in The Way of Things. They can sense an individual's restless spirit, or the plight of a colleague endangered millions of miles away. Yet, they can stand in the center of their enemy's power base, and be completely blind (or only vaguely suspicious) as to who...and what...they are truly dealing with? The Darkside clouds everything. Besides that, the Jedi haven't seen a Sith in over 1,000 years. They're rusty. :eek:


The Jedi make noise about their order's diminished ability to use "The Force." So, if they are aware of this shortcoming...and if the future of humanity (and the entire galaxy) is at stake...shouldn't they be a bit more proactive in figuring out what the enemy is up to? Yes, and that's Qui-Gon's point. Up until this time, the Jedi just "meditate" on matters waiting for the Force to reveal their path. One of the lessons Yoda learns from Qui-Gon's ghost is that they should be more active in their pursuit of knowledge.

[Shaolinlueb]

Yes, and that's Qui-Gon's point. Up until this time, the Jedi just "meditate" on matters waiting for the Force to reveal their path. One of the lessons Yoda learns from Qui-Gon's ghost is that they should be more active in their pursuit of knowledge.

hence why luke is so infatuated with learning everything he can, even if it meens going to the darkside to understand it.

in the thrawn trilogy, i guess they stopped using clones altogether near the ESB and ROTJ. because you dont hear of it that much and because they start to redo the clone process in thrawn trilogy. I enjoyed that trilogy a bit.
do you have anywhere a list of the sith lords form darth bane to the emperor? like a family tree or something?

[MasterKiller]

I don't know of a family tree, but this lists a lot of them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sith

[PHILBERT]

Wow.
http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=I-AM-the-Senate

SWEET.

[MasterKiller]

See, me and Philbert were on the mark.

http://movies.yahoo.com/mv/news/ap/20050515/111618582000.html

[PHILBERT]

MK, read what Lucas said though, it's purely ironic that the new movie has anti-Bush themes. But yeah, it's there.

[MasterKiller]

MK, read what Lucas said though, it's purely ironic that the new movie has anti-Bush themes. But yeah, it's there.
If you believe that, I have some beachfront property in Oklahoma to sell you real cheap. He's just saying that so the Anti-Hom0sexual Pals of Jesus, aka The Republican Party, won't start a nation-wide anti-abortion/anti-Lucas backlash and boycott the film.

The first draft of Star Wars resembles The Phantom Menace et al. remotely. Attack of the Clones was written a year after TPM came out (2000). If you look at the pre-production, Dooku wasn't developed until very late in the game (circa 2001), so all the political intrigue stuff came out post 9/11. He was orginally going to have a Sith Witch as the new apprentice to Sidious.

Heck, the original opening scene of AOTC was the battle over Corucsant, with space-ships slamming into buildings. But once other movies started removing stuff in light of 9/11 (Spiderman, for instance), he changed it to that stupid failed assasination attempt on Padme.

When he wrote the OT, he was very much inspired by the resistance a bunch of ignorant farmers put up against the huge mechanized American Industrial Complex.

[Judge Pen]

When he wrote the OT, he was very much inspired by the resistance a bunch of ignorant farmers put up against the huge mechanized American Industrial Complex.

Sure, and it makes a good story. Political inspirations and current events are always the best place to start to develop themes. But if I stopped listening to music or watching movies just because I didn't agree with the subtext or the political statements the artists were making I would have to give up all literature, movies, music and video games.

[MasterKiller]

You wouldn't make a very good Tom Delay cronie, JP.

[Judge Pen]

That's because I'm not a Tom Delay cronie.

[red5angel]

Honestly, sometimes I think Lucas didn't even try to make things match up with the existing source material. He's like a spoiled brat that won't let you play with his ball unless you play his way.

Why should he have to? It's HIS project and his alone. While he may like ideas that come out in the EU, if he decides he doesn't like them, or want's to do his own thing it's his perogative.



http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=I-AM-the-Senate

what is this? It seems to be locked for me here at work.

[MasterKiller]

Why should he have to? It's HIS project and his alone. While he may like ideas that come out in the EU, if he decides he doesn't like them, or want's to do his own thing it's his perogative. He doesn't have to, you're right. But when you pump out officially liscensed material for 25 years and expect the fans to cough up the $$, I think it would have been common courtesy to maybe try to match things up a bit.

People have invested a lot of money, time, and emotion into his little project for a quater of a century, and then he doesn't understand why fans get pizzy because he decided to throw away a few well-established factoids and story lines? Smacks of isolationism to me.

Sure, it's easy for him to say "It's my movies and I'll do what I want." But you know what, I've been a Cleveland Browns fan since I was 11, and when Art Moddell moved the team to Baltimore because he wanted a new stadium it ripped my heart out. He demanded loyalty, demanded fans buy merchandise and tickets, and then did what he wanted and moved the team and threw away 50 years of history.

Lucas kind of did the same thing, IMO. You can either tip your hat to the dedicated fans or you can pizz them off and do your own thing. I think he sort of owes something to all the guys like me who have followed this series since I was 5. You think 7 year-olds are buying his toys? Hell no. It's guys like me that keep $$ flowing in his pockets. He could have shown us more respect.

[Judge Pen]

By and large, the reviews so far have been very favorable, as a movie and as a Star Wars movie, but this review is just horrible (although I smell an intellectual elitist with an axe to grind here).

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/cinema/?050523crci_cinema

[Judge Pen]

http://www.juicycerebellum.com/200511.htm

[MasterKiller]

All this speculation will be moot after 2 A.M. Thursday morning. Some of us will like it, some of us won't.

[shaolinboxer]

Ya know, I went nuts getting tickets for Ep I & II...and the re-releases of IV V & VI and it was really stressful. This time I decided to just chill and get tickets for an afternoon show somtime within a week of the release.

then I get a call last night from a buddy who works for Bluesky Studios (they did that CG flick Robots) and he says he has tickets for me and my wife for a sneak screening! It's tonight in Times Square!

I RULE THE GEEK UNIVERSE!

[red5angel]

bah, It's Lucas deal if it bothers you he changes things around stop buying all the ****. Personally I'm a huge star wars fan, I buy some of the stuff, but it doesn't bother me if he's gonna change things around, it's his deal. Hell so what if he signs off on some piece of EU, then later changes it in his movie. Maybe he decided it fits his vision more down the road?



WOOOOOHOOOOOO!! 30 minutes ago a friend of mine emailed me to tell me he got ticks for tonights sneak preview! It's actually not a sneak preview but someone I work with out at the festival works at a theater part time and she's taking me and my wife to the employee showing tonight.

[Shaolinlueb]

a guy i know saw it last week. i am jealous. :(

[MasterKiller]

http://www.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/dave_tv/ls_dtv_comedy_clips.shtml

[Shaolinlueb]

got my tickets for tonight :D

[Nick Forrer]

Gonna see Star wars in half an hour. Fukkin stoked.

[Nick Forrer]

Just got back. Thank you Lucas that didnt disappoint.....

[MasterKiller]

2 words:


Fuggin' sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

[MasterKiller]

This is at least the 2nd best Star Wars movie. I'll have to see it again a few times to make my mind up, but right now it's pretty close to matching ESB for intensity and depth.

[Judge Pen]

High praise. I won't get to see it until Saturday night.

[MasterKiller]

I only have a couple of beefs.

A) He brought up Syfo-Dias in EP II, I think he should have closed that story arc in EP III. The movies shouldn't need EU sources to finish them.

B) There was no special "bonding" moment between Leia and Padme. I think she should have held her or stared her in the eyes or something to make it at least attept to fit in with EP VI.

C) Qui-Gon was cut out. He's mentioned in passing at the end, but his ghost makes no appearance in the movie. I think he should have had some screen time.

D) When Vader asks about Padme, after he's been put into the suit, he says "Where is Padme? Is she all right?" Vader would never say "all right." He'd say "Is she safe" or something like that.

Other than that, I think it was pretty focking suuuuu-wheat.

[red5angel]

I don't get what the big deal about SD is. He's just a name tossed in passing and I don't think he's all that pivotal hence not included in the movies. Hell I assumed off th abat it was a name Tryannus used to get the clone army built, and the real SD didn't mean anything at all other then he was another Jedi.
The EU latched onto tat little tidbit of info and made it something else but that's the EU, I don't think Lucas had anything real deep or intriguing in mind.


Best SW flick ever.

[Mighty Scott]

My two words to describe SW III:

Massively Overrated

Great fight scenes (best light saber battles yet)... great scenes with yoda... Anakin burning to a crisp was great... I even like General Grievous...

I wish I could wipe every scene that Natalie Portman talks from my mind, that and about the last five minutes of the film. Jimmy Smits look like a zombie.

Maybe the best of the recent three (maybe), definately not better then the original three.

Oh, my wife thinks I'm a crazy person, she was all teary eyed by the end.

Maybe I need to see it a few dozem more times until I get it. :confused:

[MasterKiller]

Well, it was just introduced as this sort of mystery in EP II. Who deleted the Jedi Archives about Kimino? Only a jedi could, according to Yoda. Was it Syfo-Dias? Dooku? Palapatine himself?

If Syfo-Dias was killed, then why is there such a mystery about who actually ordered the army? Obi-Wan seems perplexed like there is no way Syfo-Dias could have done it. If not him, then who?

It's like Lucas was setting up the details of the great evil conspiracy, which is cool, but then he dropped it and let the EU answer the questions instead.

I really wanted Dooku to give a speech about why he was doing what he was doing, which would have answered those questions.

I know you can infer this and that happened. But I wanted some exposition on it to close the loops.

Some mystery is good. Like, Sidious tells Anakin he learned Plageuis powers and then killed him, right? But later he says only one person ever learned how to use the Force to create life and he would need Anakin's help to figure it out. So, was he lying about being Plageuis' apprentice, or lying about not having all the info so Vader would continue to help him, dangling the carrot, so to speak....? Makes you wonder in a good way because it doesn't leave any plot holes either way.

[Shaolinlueb]

Some mystery is good. Like, Sidious tells Anakin he learned Plageuis powers and then killed him, right? But later he says only one person ever learned how to use the Force to create life and he would need Anakin's help to figure it out. So, was he lying about being Plageuis' apprentice, or lying about not having all the info so Vader would continue to help him, dangling the carrot, so to speak....? Makes you wonder in a good way because it doesn't leave any plot holes either way.

I caught that too. so i was wondewring the same thing? did sidious really learn it or no?

anyways, i liked it. i wish the yoda vs palpatine battle was longer, and the grevious vs obiwon saber battle was longer.

[PHILBERT]

MK, the thing about Leia remembering her mother is ok though. Yoda said to Luke in ESB that he will see things, old friends from the past, the present, the future, etc.

From RotJ

LUKE
Leia... do you remember your mother? Your
real mother?

LEIA
Just a little bit. She died when I was very
young.

LUKE
What do you remember?

LEIA
Just...images, really. Feelings.

LUKE
Tell me.

LEIA
She was very beautiful. Kind, but...sad.
Why are you asking me all this?

LUKE
I have no memory of my mother. I never knew
her.

She said feelings and images, and that she was sad. Odds are she is seeing the past through the Force of her mother.

And I am ****ing ****ed Qui-Gon Jinn was cut.

[MasterKiller]

Yeah, I guess in that context the Leia thing is no big deal. I still think Qui-Gon should be in the movie. Maybe he'll add the scene back for the DVD. And if you want to get down and dirty, shouldn't Qui-Gon be at the end of ROTJ as well?

[PHILBERT]

MK, Qui-Gon might never have discovered the secret to return as a ghost completely. Like in ANH, Obi-Wan didn't appear, he only had a voice. Perhaps Qui-Gon too only had the voice (like in AotC). Or maybe after he "taught" Obi-Wan and Yoda, he went back to the Force and let himself go completely, cause immortality is rather scary. Could of taught Yoda and Obi-Wan in case they died, and needed to teach Luke or Leia.

[MasterKiller]

I'm still kicking all this stuff around in my head.

I went back and watched all of Dooku's dialogue again from AOTC, and it seems to me he made his case in this conversation with Obi-Wan"

COUNT DOOKU: It's a great pity that our paths have never
crossed before, Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon always spoke very highly
of you. I wish he were still alive. I could use his help
right now.

OBI-WAN: Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you.

COUNT DOOKU: Don't be so sure, my young Jedi. You forget
that he was once my apprentice just as you were once his.
He knew all about the corruption in the Senate, but he
would never have gone along with it if he had known the
truth as I have.

OBI-WAN: The truth?

COUNT DOOKU: The truth. What if I told you that the
Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lords of the
Sith?

OBI-WAN: No, that's not possible. The Jedi would be aware
of it.

COUNT DOOKU: The dark side of the Force has clouded their
vision, my friend. Hundreds of Senators are now under the
influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious.

OBI-WAN: I don't believe you.

COUNT DOOKU: The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once
in league with this Darth Sidious. But he was betrayed ten
years ago by the Dark Lord. He came to me for help. He told
me everything. You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together
we will destroy the Sith.

OK, so basically in this little piece of dialouge Dooku lays out that 10 years ago, after the Battle of Naboo, Nute Gunray feels deceived by Sidious and goes to Dooku for help. So this is how Dooku finds out about Sidious. Dooku knows the Republic is corrupt once he learns that a Sith Lord is in the mix, so he forms the Separatists.

It doesn't say why he decided to join leagues with Sidious, unless you are supposed to infer that he is working with Sidous in order to gain enough power to overthrow him (like Anakin suggests in ROTS).

I know the real reason is he thinks the new Empire will be better than the Republic, but I'm just using the movies for reference to try to fit all the pieces together.

[Mighty Scott]

That's a reacurring theme in Star Wars. That there are only two siths, a master and an aprentise. If a master ever took on two or more apprentises then they could join together and overthrow the master. Evil always turns on itself. Vader asked Luke to join him, Dooku ask Obi-Wan, and Darth Maul... well Darth Maul was just there for his good looks and wushu.

[MasterKiller]

That's a reacurring theme in Star Wars. That there are only two siths, a master and an aprentise. If a master ever took on two or more apprentises then they could join together and overthrow the master. Evil always turns on itself. Vader asked Luke to join him, Dooku ask Obi-Wan, and Darth Maul... well Darth Maul was just there for his good looks and wushu.

It's not just the Sith. The Jedi use the same code. 1 Master and 1 apprentice. The Jedi code forbids a master from having more than one apprentice as well.

What's the difference? The Jedi units (teacher+student) cooperate with other units; whereas the Sith units (teacher+student) compete and try to eliminate other units, or even themselves.

[MasterKiller]

COUNT DOOKU: Don't be so sure, my young Jedi. You forget
that he was once my apprentice just as you were once his.
He knew all about the corruption in the Senate, but he
would never have gone along with it if he had known the
truth as I have.

Ok, I think it would have all been cleared up if Dooku would have said:

COUNT DOOKU: Don't be so sure, my young Jedi. You forget
that he was once my apprentice just as you were once his.
He knew all about the corruption in the Senate, but he
would never have gone along with it if he had known the
truth as I have. His death was the turning point for me.
After that I knew the Republic was doomed and the Jedi would be helpless
to prevent it.

[@PLUGO]

Darth's imitation of Frankenstein was a bit weak.

I felt they could have played up MACE WINDO as being a Jedi who's motivations & actions could be looked upon with greater suspicion. In my head, Anakin could see him as a potential traitor to the Jedi cause and thus more easily manipulated by Palpatine. His choice to join Palpatine should have also included more arrogance/idealism. Believing that being "the chosen one" would immunise him from the treat of the dark side's seduction.

One thing that bugged me from the beginning. Don't they have Condoms in a galaxy far far away? I just didn't believe the accidental pregnancy... it should have been more of a conscious choice with Anakin deluding himself (& padme) into believing he could lead two lives; one as a Jedi and another as a husband/father.

I would have prefered it if, after seeing Obi-wan he desided that Padme was an unfit mother and used the force to induce a premature labor. Saying "I will raise my son without you!" Then she could plausably die during labor and everyone is surprised when it's twins.

Yoda should also have been injured in the assassination attempt, just so he could lay in the mud and have a vision of Q-gon telling him to go to Degoba just like BEN did for Luke in ESB.

maybe I'll go see it again and close my eyes and imagine those scenes at the appropriate times . . .

[Mighty Scott]

While we're on a wish list don't forget helmeted Darth leading throngs of troops into battle, or for crying out loud using a red light saber.
I think killing off Padme within the first five minutes would have greatly improoved things too (have I mentioned Star Wars Natalie Portman bugs me).

[MasterKiller]

One thing that bugged me from the beginning. Don't they have Condoms in a galaxy far far away? I just didn't believe the accidental pregnancy... it should have been more of a conscious choice with Anakin deluding himself (& padme) into believing he could lead two lives; one as a Jedi and another as a husband/father. OK...he's off fighting battles for 3 years, comes home every 4 or 5 months for a brief stint, then it's off to war again... You ever read about those sudden population expolsions that happens after every war?

He hadn't seen her since he knocked her up.

[MasterKiller]

or for crying out loud using a red light saber. That wouldn't have made sense because Luke gets his old lightsaber in ANH, and Luke's saber is blue (or green-blue on the DVD).

There was a scene that was removed (thankfully) where Anakin hits a switch and his saber changes from Blue to Red during the Obi-Wan duel. The toy Vader lightsaber at Wal-Mart does this because it was in the movie way up until the final cut.

[Mighty Scott]

One thing that bugged me from the beginning. Don't they have Condoms in a galaxy far far away? I just didn't believe the accidental pregnancy...
Jedi sperm... the force are with them. :eek:

[Starchaser107]

I thought the light sabers colour was based on whoever weilds it, the colour reacts to the midiclorins and the users intent?

anyways I saw episode 3 it was really good.

[MasterKiller]

Where'd you read that load of poop?

The color is determined by the type of crystal reflector the Jedi chooses when he makes the saber. The Sith prefer to use a more concentrated synthetic crystal, which is why their sabers are all red.

[Starchaser107]

thanks, I was just took a wild guess, I figure one of u guys would set me straight.

[Judge Pen]

That wouldn't have made sense because Luke gets his old lightsaber in ANH, and Luke's saber is blue (or green-blue on the DVD).

There was a scene that was removed (thankfully) where Anakin hits a switch and his saber changes from Blue to Red during the Obi-Wan duel. The toy Vader lightsaber at Wal-Mart does this because it was in the movie way up until the final cut.

It's that way in the Legos game too.

[IronFist]

Ok, so I had some questions after watching it cuz I'm not too familiar with the specifics of the series.

1. Why did General Grevience cough? Robots can't catch colds. Wasn't he a droid or something? But maybe not cuz he had a heart or something. What's the deal with him?

2. When the chancellor used his lightning powers to blast the black Jedi (I can't remember his name), why did it turn him all old? Is shooting lightning only a "dark side" power?

2.5 Does Yoda know how to do that? He seemed to be able to shoot lightning when he was battling the chancellor in that big discussion room.

3. What is the deal with Qui Gon learning how to achieve immortality or something and he's coming back to train with Obi-Wan Kenobi? That's never touched on in episode 4, is it?

4. Did the whole movie take place in 9 months? She went from being pregnant in the beginning to having her babies at the end. I would have guessed the movie took place in 2 weeks, not 9 months.

5. Did Padme die because of when Anakin was choking her with the force? Or was it cuz she "lost her will to live" like the nurse robot said? I assumed it was the former cuz at the end they told Darth Vador he killed her with his anger.

6. If Wookies can only make that growling noise, how can they have names like "Chewbacca" or whatever that other one whose name Yoda mentioned was named?

7. Did/do the Jedi ever find out that the reason Anakin turned to the dark side was originally to be able to save Padme's life? So it's like even tho it was a bad thing, he did it for a good reason, so it's not completely bad, right?

8. How come, when fighting IN SPACE, damaged ships still fall back down to the planet? Were they not out of it's gravitational pull yet?

9. A civilization that has mastered interstellar travel and can give you synthetic limbs that can respond to feeling and touch the same as normal limbs can't muffle the breathing of Darth Vador's suit? :D

10. Why do the dark side and the light side (good side? what's it called?) have different powers? How come only people on the dark side can do things like keep their friends alive? Why would the Jedi choose to only study part of the force?

11. In the beginning when Anakin jumps back into the elevator and Obi-Wan turns on his lightsaber and then goes, "oh, it's you" and turns it off, wouldn't he have been able to feel through the force that it was Anakin without having to see him? I thought they could do that.

12. How can humans understand R2D2?

Alright, thanks.

PS. There's no sound in space. Even Star Trek is guilty of this one, though. Besides, watching space battles in complete silence would be kinda boring :D

[norther practitioner]

8. How come, when fighting IN SPACE, damaged ships still fall back down to the planet? Were they not out of it's gravitational pull yet?

You are never out of anythings gravitational pull that is larger than you. It's simple physics.

Gravitational force = (G * m1 * m2) / (d^2)
where G is the gravitational constant, m1 and m2 are the masses of the two objects for which you are calculating the force, and d is the distance between the centers of gravity of the two masses.

[Judge Pen]

MK will answer each of these with painstaking detail, but I can give a brief overview:

1. He is part alien and part robot using the same technology that they use to kee vader alive. He also was injured in kidnapping the chancellor by Mace Windu (the black jedi). This was in the cartoon "The Clone Wars season 2"

2. Yes it is a dark-side power (MK will argue on this...). There's a split of authroity as to why it turned him old. the popular view is that the dark side corrupts and Sideous was using the dark side to keep himself alive and looking relatively young, and when he was forced to expend energy in the fight with mace, he lost some of that youth appearance. Also, mace's saber was reflecting some of that lighting back in Sideous' face which was a catlyist/contributing factor to that transformation.

2.5 Again, a split of opinion. I say Yoda doesn't "know" but can send it back when directed at him (think tai chi techniques) but MK will say he can, but chooses not to because it's so agressive that it leads to the dark side. Yoda seemed pretty agreesive to me in that last fight so if he could use it, wouldn't he?

3. No it's not touched on in EPIV (It is, subtely, in EPII). There was reportedly a deleted scene in EPIII explaining this in more detail.

4. It took place over a period of months. Space travel apparently takes longer than the movies seem to let on.

5. ??? I didn't like this. I think she was weak and injured, but her losing the will to live allowed her weakness to overcome her and die.

6. Because George Lucas (GL) gave him a name 28 years ago.

7. I don't know. It's implied in The Duel, but I don't think they cared because they knew he was manipulated and would not return from the evil path he had chosen.

8. Dramatic effect.

9. Dramatic effect.

10. The force is a tool, but the jedi (or the sith) are not all knowing. It must be directed and is weaker when distracted or linked to emotional issues. That's why the jedi were so blind. They were arrogant and distracted by this crusade they were fighting and the sisth used that opportunity for his final power play. Plus, the sith's main powers are deception and subtrefuge.

12. Because GL says so.

:D

[Mikkyou]

I saw Starwars last night and it made me realize that both the Jedi and Sith are both "evil" and both "good" I think it was a shame that the Jedi used Anakin as a spy and treated him so poorly(think Sun tzu:if you treat spies poorly they will betray you) I think when Anakin asked for help none of the Jedi helped him with his problem.Ankin want only to save his family understandable
and the part with Mace trying to kill the Sith lord which broke the Jedi code only proved to Anakin the Jedi had "evil" in them.I am glad Obi wan admits he failed Anakin because Obi wan is such a weak person.Anakin saved his life 9times Obiwan was the first to draw his lightsaber on Anakin and when he cut Anakin legs off he left him there to die. it truly showed Obiwan had no compassion for Anakin or cared for his wellbeing.All and all I got this out of the movie:
people are so easy to jump the gun and not work out their problems
but I guess its hard when you have an a s s hole like Obiwan and a hot head like Anakin and Yoda who could careless.I am glad this was the last movie because
I truly enjoyed seeing Obiwan in the original Starwars as a good guy rather than a pompous ass in Clone wars and Revenge of the Sith.

[Judge Pen]

I saw Starwars last night and it made me realize that both the Jedi and Sith are both "evil" and both "good" I think it was a shame that the Jedi used Anakin as a spy and treated him so poorly(think Sun tzu:if you treat spies poorly they will betray you) I think when Anakin asked for help none of the Jedi helped him with his problem.Ankin want only to save his family understandable
and the part with Mace trying to kill the Sith lord which broke the Jedi code only proved to Anakin the Jedi had "evil" in them.I am glad Obi wan admits he failed Anakin because Obi wan is such a weak person.Anakin saved his life 9times Obiwan was the first to draw his lightsaber on Anakin and when he cut Anakin legs off he left him there to die. it truly showed Obiwan had no compassion for Anakin or cared for his wellbeing.All and all I got this out of the movie:
people are so easy to jump the gun and not work out their problems
but I guess its hard when you have an a s s hole like Obiwan and a hot head like Anakin and Yoda who could careless.I am glad this was the last movie because
I truly enjoyed seeing Obiwan in the original Starwars as a good guy rather than a pompous ass in Clone wars and Revenge of the Sith.

I think Yoda and Obiwan realized their weaknesses between III and the Original Trilogy. Yes, the jedi council was corrupt, but they were not as evil as Sideous. They were complacent and arrogant. And Yoda did care but not in ther personal things like family and friends, but a greater good. Not many people, and not Anakin, could accept that.

[BM2]

Anakin built C3PO yet he never acknowledges knowing him in the first trilogy. Obi Wan says " I don't recall ever owning droids", C3PO and R2D2 did not acknowledge knowing him in IV. :confused:

[IronFist]

Anakin built C3PO yet he never acknowledges knowing him in the first trilogy. Obi Wan says " I don't recall ever owning droids", C3PO and R2D2 did not acknowledge knowing him in IV. :confused:

Could that be cuz they had their memories wiped? At least C3PO did.

So of all the Jedi in the council, is/was Yoda the strongest?

After EP 6 is Luke like the last Jedi ever then? I heard that 7-9 have been written but George Lucas says he's done directing Star Wars movies. True?

JP thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions :)

[MasterKiller]

1. Why did General Grevience cough? Robots can't catch colds. Wasn't he a droid or something? But maybe not cuz he had a heart or something. What's the deal with him? Like Jp said.


When the chancellor used his lightning powers to blast the black Jedi (I can't remember his name), why did it turn him all old? Is shooting lightning only a "dark side" power? All trained Force sensitives can use any power. Jedi choose to use the Force for only knowledge and defense; Sith use the Force for for power and aggression. WHy did it turn him old? The dark side corrupts you physically and spiritually. Anyone notice Dooku's teeth? Yuck.


2.5 Does Yoda know how to do that? He seemed to be able to shoot lightning when he was battling the chancellor in that big discussion room. They all know how to do it. Choosing to do it is a different matter.


What is the deal with Qui Gon learning how to achieve immortality or something and he's coming back to train with Obi-Wan Kenobi? That's never touched on in episode 4, is it? In EP II, when Anakin chops up the Tusken Raider babies, you see a shot of Yoda meditating and hear Qui-Gon's voice saying "No No." Basically, Anakin's behaviour is soooo evil it shocks Qui-Gon back from the dead. That's how Obi-Wan and Yoda learn to maintain their identity in the Force in IV, V, and VI.


Did the whole movie take place in 9 months? She went from being pregnant in the beginning to having her babies at the end. I would have guessed the movie took place in 2 weeks, not 9 months. She was 6 months pregnant at the beginning. Anakin had been away fighting the Clone Wars for a long time.

Most of the movies take place over a 3 to 8 month period. Space travel can take weeks or even months. For example, in EP IV, the ride to Alderaan takes 6 weeks, but it looks like it takes about 1 day on screen.


Did Padme die because of when Anakin was choking her with the force? Or was it cuz she "lost her will to live" like the nurse robot said? I assumed it was the former cuz at the end they told Darth Vador he killed her with his anger. Padme died of a broken heart. She lost the will to live.


If Wookies can only make that growling noise, how can they have names like "Chewbacca" or whatever that other one whose name Yoda mentioned was named? The univesal language is called Galactic Basic. It sounds a lot like English to you and me. Those pronounciations are wookie translated into Basic.


Did/do the Jedi ever find out that the reason Anakin turned to the dark side was originally to be able to save Padme's life? So it's like even tho it was a bad thing, he did it for a good reason, so it's not completely bad, right? Wrong. From the Jedi's perspective, death is natural. Stopping it unnaturally is bad, m'kay?

Plus, attachment is bad. Jedi are removed from the parents no later than 2 so they won't form strong bonds.

Anakin's attachment is so strong he murders thousands of his colleagues just to keep one person alive. That, in the eyes of the Jedi, is bad bad stuff.


How come, when fighting IN SPACE, damaged ships still fall back down to the planet? Were they not out of it's gravitational pull yet? dramatic effect.


A civilization that has mastered interstellar travel and can give you synthetic limbs that can respond to feeling and touch the same as normal limbs can't muffle the breathing of Darth Vador's suit? They didn't master interstellar travel. Another race did a looooong time ago and built all the hyperspace travel lanes. They just know how to use it.


Why do the dark side and the light side (good side? what's it called?) have different powers? How come only people on the dark side can do things like keep their friends alive? Why would the Jedi choose to only study part of the force? They don't. It's all the same. It what you choose to do with it that makes you good or bad. Palpatine's story that convinces Anakin to turn is a lie.


In the beginning when Anakin jumps back into the elevator and Obi-Wan turns on his lightsaber and then goes, "oh, it's you" and turns it off, wouldn't he have been able to feel through the force that it was Anakin without having to see him? I thought they could do that. Maybe he was preoccupied.


How can humans understand R2D2? You can't?

[MasterKiller]

Anakin built C3PO yet he never acknowledges knowing him in the first trilogy. Obi Wan says " I don't recall ever owning droids", C3PO and R2D2 did not acknowledge knowing him in IV. :confused:
Vader never sees C3PO in the OT, except in ESB when he's in 20 pieces. Besides, he looks like any other protocol driod. There's a bizillion of them walking around. Vader even has a black one.

And Obi-Wan didn't own R2. Anakin did. R2 knows Obi-Wan in EP IV. He knows excatly where he's going to find him. That's why him and C3P0 argue at the beginning of the movie about which way to go.

[MasterKiller]

Could that be cuz they had their memories wiped? At least C3PO did. That's why C3P0 doesn't know who Luke is, or Obi-Wan, etc...


So of all the Jedi in the council, is/was Yoda the strongest? Not at this juncture. When he was young, he was bad @ss. Right now, Mace is the billy bad @ss of the Jedi Council.


After EP 6 is Luke like the last Jedi ever then? I heard that 7-9 have been written but George Lucas says he's done directing Star Wars movies. True? False. He didn't write anything more after EP VI. He's offically decided some of the Expanded Universe novels are episodes 7-9, but he didn't write them. I figfure one of his kids will eventually resurrect the franchise, though, so who knows.

Luke is not the last of the Jedi. He opens a school at the Massassi Temple on Yavin 4 (the base in EP IV), and trains a new generation of Jedi. They, however, are different from the Jedi of old because Luke basically made stuff up as he went. The Emperor destroyed everything he could about the Jedi.

Plus his kids, along with Leia kids, are pretty powerful.

Also, there are lots of other Force Sensitives running around, not Jedi, but capable of using the Force. The Emperor establishes a policy of killing all Force sesnsitive children, but it's a big galaxy and some slip through the cracks.

[PaiLumDreamer]

Whats the background story on Yoda? I know...nothing about him, come to think of it.

[rogue]

Am I the only one who got the Commander Cody reference?

Supposedly GL included a deleted scene form E4. Was that supposed to be Peter Cushing as Grand Moff Willif Tarken at the end?

[lotus storm]

7. Did/do the Jedi ever find out that the reason Anakin turned to the dark side was originally to be able to save Padme's life? So it's like even tho it was a bad thing, he did it for a good reason, so it's not completely bad, right?

But he wasn't even supposed to be involved with her in the first place, isn't that correct? So weren't all of his "reasons" really just "rationalizations" & deceptions of one kind or another? Wouldn't he have been kicked out of the Jedi once they knew of his fathering the twins and the forbidden relationship with Padme?


How come, when fighting IN SPACE, damaged ships still fall back down to the planet? Were they not out of it's gravitational pull yet?

dramatic effect.

Works as dramatic effect, but it is still true that the ships---some of which are 6 miles long, hence of tremendous mass---like any thing in orbit around any planet, even a pebble and smaller, would begin to fall back to the surface once orbital velocity or the propulsion system driving or "levitating" it was lost or engines damaged.

[MasterKiller]

Supposedly GL included a deleted scene form E4. Was that supposed to be Peter Cushing as Grand Moff Willif Tarken at the end? Yeah, that was Tarkin. I love his character. I wish they would have developed a younger version of him for the PT.

I don't know what deleted scene he could have included. The only set even resembling EP IV was the Corellian Corvette that Bail Organa uses at the end. It's the same ship (Tantive IV) that Princess Leia is in at the beginning of EP IV.

[rogue]

I think the Tarkin footage was from the first movie and they doctored it to make him younger. I think it's the kind of homage Lucas would do.

[Starchaser107]

can somebody explain to me how lord sideous was able to currupt the entire clone army in order to execute order 66?

[David Jamieson]

so luke skywalker is to the jedi what sin thé is to the shaolin? :D

[SevenStar]

Ok, so I had some questions after watching it cuz I'm not too familiar with the specifics of the series.

1. Why did General Grevience cough? Robots can't catch colds. Wasn't he a droid or something? But maybe not cuz he had a heart or something. What's the deal with him?

2. When the chancellor used his lightning powers to blast the black Jedi (I can't remember his name), why did it turn him all old? Is shooting lightning only a "dark side" power?

2.5 Does Yoda know how to do that? He seemed to be able to shoot lightning when he was battling the chancellor in that big discussion room.

3. What is the deal with Qui Gon learning how to achieve immortality or something and he's coming back to train with Obi-Wan Kenobi? That's never touched on in episode 4, is it?

4. Did the whole movie take place in 9 months? She went from being pregnant in the beginning to having her babies at the end. I would have guessed the movie took place in 2 weeks, not 9 months.

5. Did Padme die because of when Anakin was choking her with the force? Or was it cuz she "lost her will to live" like the nurse robot said? I assumed it was the former cuz at the end they told Darth Vador he killed her with his anger.

6. If Wookies can only make that growling noise, how can they have names like "Chewbacca" or whatever that other one whose name Yoda mentioned was named?

7. Did/do the Jedi ever find out that the reason Anakin turned to the dark side was originally to be able to save Padme's life? So it's like even tho it was a bad thing, he did it for a good reason, so it's not completely bad, right?

8. How come, when fighting IN SPACE, damaged ships still fall back down to the planet? Were they not out of it's gravitational pull yet?

9. A civilization that has mastered interstellar travel and can give you synthetic limbs that can respond to feeling and touch the same as normal limbs can't muffle the breathing of Darth Vador's suit? :D

10. Why do the dark side and the light side (good side? what's it called?) have different powers? How come only people on the dark side can do things like keep their friends alive? Why would the Jedi choose to only study part of the force?

11. In the beginning when Anakin jumps back into the elevator and Obi-Wan turns on his lightsaber and then goes, "oh, it's you" and turns it off, wouldn't he have been able to feel through the force that it was Anakin without having to see him? I thought they could do that.

12. How can humans understand R2D2?

Alright, thanks.

PS. There's no sound in space. Even Star Trek is guilty of this one, though. Besides, watching space battles in complete silence would be kinda boring :D


I haven't been around all weekend, so I haven't read this thread yet, but I'm betting that MK has already answered all these. If not, I'll try to fill them in.

[SevenStar]

False. He didn't write anything more after EP VI. He's offically decided some of the Expanded Universe novels are episodes 7-9, but he didn't write them. I figfure one of his kids will eventually resurrect the franchise, though, so who knows.

Luke is not the last of the Jedi. He opens a school at the Massassi Temple on Yavin 4 (the base in EP IV), and trains a new generation of Jedi. They, however, are different from the Jedi of old because Luke basically made stuff up as he went. The Emperor destroyed everything he could about the Jedi.

Plus his kids, along with Leia kids, are pretty powerful.

Also, there are lots of other Force Sensitives running around, not Jedi, but capable of using the Force. The Emperor establishes a policy of killing all Force sesnsitive children, but it's a big galaxy and some slip through the cracks.


What I heard is that there WAS originally going to be a 4,5 and 6 (7,8 and 9), but that for some reason, GL condensed them all into ep 6.

As for luke being the last jedi, he was at the time, but remember in ep 6, before yoda died, he said "pass on what you know, you must"

[SevenStar]

Wrong. From the Jedi's perspective, death is natural. Stopping it unnaturally is bad, m'kay?

yeah, like yoda said "be not said when someone passes - no. mourn not. Be happy that they have returned to the force" - or something to that effect.



They don't. It's all the same. It what you choose to do with it that makes you good or bad. Palpatine's story that convinces Anakin to turn is a lie.


I thought about that... what if it wasn't a complete lie? perhaps the sith had stumbled upon the same technique that yoda and qui gon had? I know he wouldn't have bothered to ever teach it to anakin, but perhaps he did have the knowledge.

[IronFist]

Thanks guys.

I haven't seen 4, 5, or 6 in a while, but I don't remember the word "Sith" ever being said in those movies. Am I correct?

Also, is a Site just like a Jedi but of the dark side? It's not a race, right?

And what is the opposite of the dark side? They never mention it by name, do they? The good side? The light side?

[KungFuGuy!]

MK knows his stuff. However concering Sidious' lightning mutating his face, I don't think it had any effect at all. When the emperor was appearing before his followers in hollogram form, you'd notice him looking rather gross. This is his true form due to using the dark side all those years, which corrupts the hell out of you physically and mentally, as was already mentioned. He uses the force to change his appearence with the same type of dark power he uses to mask the dark side's influence from the ever-vigilant Jedi. He simply let go of his disguise in front of Anakin to add to his deception of being defeated.
It was also a nice bit of evidence to appeal to the senate about the Jedi's attempt to seize power.
I do believe that Windu could have killed him, even though the lightning wasn't having any effect on the emperor. He was forcing his saber down and probably would have been able to stick it in Sidious' face.

[IronFist]

Which books are "officially" episodes 7, 8 and 9?

[SevenStar]

Thanks guys.

I haven't seen 4, 5, or 6 in a while, but I don't remember the word "Sith" ever being said in those movies. Am I correct?

I want to say I heard it once, but can't recall which film it was - I'll re-watch them. if MK or someone doesn't know offhand.



Also, is a Site just like a Jedi but of the dark side? It's not a race, right?

false. The sith home planet is called korriban. the sith were a fairly primitive race who were force sensitive. They were farily peaceful until they were discovered. Once they were discovered, the jedi were founded, and they learned to harness the power, but only used it for good. However, the force can also corrupt, and several dark jedi came about. These dark jedi conquered the sith and began using the name sith lords.



And what is the opposite of the dark side? They never mention it by name, do they? The good side? The light side?


it's merely called the good side.

[SevenStar]

9. A civilization that has mastered interstellar travel and can give you synthetic limbs that can respond to feeling and touch the same as normal limbs can't muffle the breathing of Darth Vador's suit? :D



not sure the early limbs were sensitive to touch... in EP 3, anakin's hand was completely robotic - when he became vader, it would have been much the same. We didn't see the human looking, sensitive hand until luke had his hand cut off, later in the series. In return of the jedi, when luke cut off vader's robotic arm, vader didn't scream, if I remember correctly - he didn't feel it.

[SevenStar]

MK, I heard that they had originally planned to use asajj ventress in the phantom menace instead of darth maul. Coincidentally, when I looked her up, her profile says that she too can use the double bladed light saber.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/asajjventress/

[SevenStar]

Which books are "officially" episodes 7, 8 and 9?


I dunno... but:

http://www.thetrukstop.com/starwars/sequel.html

[rogue]

GL was just on a show and he was saying that at first there was only an episode four. He wanted it to be like going to the old serial movies and you had just walked in on the 4th episode. It was only once that 4 was a huge hit that they started thinking about the next two. I heard rumours back before 5 & 6 that he had 9 episodes outlined. He also told the people at Dark Horse things that were hands off and things that they could expand upon, so he must have had something in mind.

My street cred just lost 15 points for knowing that.

[stubbs]

C3PO kinda reminds me of Tony Blair.

I find it funny that when Obi Wan went to that planet to watch over Luke he changed his name to 'Ben'. Out of all the cool alien names he decided Ben was the name for him, lol.

Did anyone else find the Chancellors laugh infectious when he was zapping Yoda?
________
Strawberry cough (http://trichomes.org/marijuana-strains/deep-chunk-x-strawberry-cough/deep-chunk-x-strawberry-cough)

[MasterKiller]

I want to say I heard it once, but can't recall which film it was - I'll re-watch them. if MK or someone doesn't know offhand. Sith is mentioned in the book Star Wars, but not in any of the OT films. Vader's offical title has always been Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith.


false. The sith home planet is called korriban. the sith were a fairly primitive race who were force sensitive. They were farily peaceful until they were discovered. Once they were discovered, the jedi were founded, and they learned to harness the power, but only used it for good. However, the force can also corrupt, and several dark jedi came about. These dark jedi conquered the sith and began using the name sith lords. This isn't entirely correct. After the Great Hyperspace War, a group of rebellious Jedi are banished to Korriban because they seek power from the Force. The inhabitanst of Korriban are a primitive race called The Sith, who see these Jedi as Gods and worship their power. The rebellious Jedi use the Force to sudue and control the Sith, which gets them the title Lords of the Sith. Eventually, they find a way off the planet and seek Revenge for their banishment, which leads up to the Great Sith War, when the Jedi kill all of them, except Darth Bane, who goes into hiding and trains an apprentice, establishes the Rule of Two, and waits for his chance to destroy the Jedi once and for all.


It's merely called the good side.
It is often called "The Light Side." And Jedi are often called Light Jedi.

The Jedi army that fought the Sith invasion was called The Army of Light.

There are other bad guys who use the Dark Side but are not Sith. They are called Dark Jedi. This includes any Dark Force user that is not part of the Sith cult.

[MasterKiller]

MK, I heard that they had originally planned to use asajj ventress in the phantom menace instead of darth maul. Coincidentally, when I looked her up, her profile says that she too can use the double bladed light saber.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/asajjventress/ Correct. The design was one of the finalists for the Maul's spot in EP I.

Then, in EP II, they were going to go back and use a Force Witch for the new apprentice (see cover of KOTOR II).

But once he started with all the political wrangling in the script, they changed to Count Dooku.

[MasterKiller]

MK knows his stuff. However concering Sidious' lightning mutating his face, I don't think it had any effect at all. When the emperor was appearing before his followers in hollogram form, you'd notice him looking rather gross. This is his true form due to using the dark side all those years, which corrupts the hell out of you physically and mentally, as was already mentioned. He uses the force to change his appearence with the same type of dark power he uses to mask the dark side's influence from the ever-vigilant Jedi. He simply let go of his disguise in front of Anakin to add to his deception of being defeated.
It was also a nice bit of evidence to appeal to the senate about the Jedi's attempt to seize power.
I do believe that Windu could have killed him, even though the lightning wasn't having any effect on the emperor. He was forcing his saber down and probably would have been able to stick it in Sidious' face.
This is my thinking as well. Sidious let that happen. I think he was just ready to expose his true self.

[MasterKiller]

I thought about that... what if it wasn't a complete lie? perhaps the sith had stumbled upon the same technique that yoda and qui gon had? I know he wouldn't have bothered to ever teach it to anakin, but perhaps he did have the knowledge. It's a lie because of the process. Yoda et al. join the Force to acheive immortality (well, not really because they eventually lose their ability to maintain themselves, but I digress).

Sidious' says he can use the Force to maintain a physical life form, and even bring it back from death. If that were true, he wouldn't have cared about finding Anakin still alive after the fight. He could have just brought him back. Or brought Maul back after Obi-Wan sliced him up.

You have a dicotomy here: Jedi merge with the Force versus Sith who use the Force to live unnaturally long lives. Spirit versus Physical. Two different ideas, and in the movies only one is shown to work. Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter.

The Emperor gives it away when he tells Vader "only one person has ever learned how to do this. With your power we can figure it out together." It may be possible, and Darth Plageuis may have known how, but Sidious obviously doesn't have the ability yet.

Vader eventually learns how to merge with the Force by himself. That's why he has that meditation chamber on his ship The Executor and appears as a ghost in EP VI.

[MasterKiller]

They were programmed to follow his orders from the start.

"You'll find they are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host."

[MasterKiller]

As for luke being the last jedi, he was at the time, but remember in ep 6, before yoda died, he said "pass on what you know, you must"
Well, in the EU, you find out there are other Jedi hiding out as well, and they pop up from time to time. In EP I, there are 10,000+ Jedi Knights. That's a lot of people to kill. Like Yoda and Obi-Wan, some of them got away.

[FngSaiYuk]

Since you guys are so into this stuph, here's a link with quite a bit of info into the background of the Sith- http://stuffo.howstuffworks.com/sith.htm

[SevenStar]

You have a dicotomy here: Jedi merge with the Force versus Sith who use the Force to live unnaturally long lives. Spirit versus Physical. Two different ideas, and in the movies only one is shown to work. Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter.

did the jedi and other force sensitives not do that as well? Luke and leia lived to be well over one hundred. Yoda was close to nine hundred.



The Emperor gives it away when he tells Vader "only one person has ever learned how to do this. With your power we can figure it out together." It may be possible, and Darth Plageuis may have known how, but Sidious obviously doesn't have the ability yet.

that was my first thought, but then I remembered anakin in EP 6.



Vader eventually learns how to merge with the Force by himself. That's why he has that meditation chamber on his ship The Executor and appears as a ghost in EP VI.

speaking of that, in the re-mastered version, it's got young anakin - sebastian shaw - not john prowse - the old, burned anakin that you see when luke removes his mask. It irked me that yoda and obi wan maintained their current look, but somehow anakin became young again. I just rationalized it away by thinking that perhaps only jedi can merge with the force, so he is depeicted as he was when he was a jedi.

[MasterKiller]

did the jedi and other force sensitives not do that as well? Luke and leia lived to be well over one hundred. Yoda was close to nine hundred. Different races live longer than others. Chewbacca is 400 in EP IV. While being strong in the Force may give you an edge, it doesn't make you immortal. Yoda says something to that effect in EP V.

that was my first thought, but then I remembered anakin in EP 6. I've always assumed The Emperor was using the Force to help sustain Vader, so maybe they eventually learn how.

But in EP III I think Sidious is lying. He dupes Vader, and that's part of the tragedy.

speaking of that, in the re-mastered version, it's got young anakin - sebastian shaw - not john prowse - the old, burned anakin that you see when luke removes his mask. It irked me that yoda and obi wan maintained their current look, but somehow anakin became young again. I just rationalized it away by thinking that perhaps only jedi can merge with the force, so he is depeicted as he was when he was a jedi.It's really not that big of a deal. Obi-Wan says that when Anakin turned, he became Darth Vader and the good man that was Anakin Skywalker ceased to be. So, Anakin's ghosts reflects Anakin Skywalker before the turn, since after the turn he was not the same person. Plus, it closes the loop on all six movies. It doesn't bug me that much.

Personally, I'd like to see Qui-Gon in there, too.

[SevenStar]

Since you guys are so into this stuph, here's a link with quite a bit of info into the background of the Sith- http://stuffo.howstuffworks.com/sith.htm


From that site:

"There is no such ritual for the Sith. The Sith prefer synthetic crystals for their sabers. The synthetic crystals save the Sith the long trek to get Illium Crystals, provide more blade tuning options, and give Sith sabers their characteristic red blade. "

they take the more direct approach - maybe mma guys are the sith lords of the real world? :D

Maybe I haven't gotten to it yet, but it doesn't mention that the blades HAVE to be red - it was one of the rules bane made. The above description makes it sound as if the color is just due to the crystals being synthetic.

[Chief Fox]

Personally, I'd like to see Qui-Gon in there, too.

Maybe the ability for them to appear at the end also has something to do with Lukes ability to see them. If this is the case then Qui-Gon couldn't appear because Luke didn't know him.

[MasterKiller]

they take the more direct approach - maybe mma guys are the sith lords of the real world?
If Shaolin monks are like Jedi Knights, then MMA fighters would be like Sith Lords. One is all about knowledge, tradition, and self-enlightenment through combat while the other is about the fastest route to strength, control and domination.

[MasterKiller]

Maybe the ability for them to appear at the end also has something to do with Lukes ability to see them. If this is the case then Qui-Gon couldn't appear because Luke didn't know him.
Possibly.

Is there anything in the EU about people's ability/inability to see Force ghosts?

[Vash]

Is it sad when one of my favorite quotes is from a Star Wars movie?

[MasterKiller]

Is it sad when one of my favorite quotes is from a Star Wars movie? Only if it's a C3P0 quote.

Mine is "I find your lack of faith disturbing." I sneak that into conversations all the time and most people have no clue what I mean. :eek:

[SevenStar]

If Shaolin monks are like Jedi Knights, then MMA fighters would be like Sith Lords. One is all about knowledge, tradition, and self-enlightenment through combat while the other is about the fastest route to strength, control and domination.


dayum, you make it sound so bad...

[MasterKiller]

dayum, you make it sound so bad...
I guess my split lip and severly bruised calf from MMA class yesterday have put me in a mood...

[SevenStar]

now channel that emotion into your training and utilize it next time. The dark side is within your grasp...

[Starchaser107]

can somebody explain to me how lord sideous was able to currupt the entire clone army in order to execute order 66?

[MasterKiller]

They were programmed to follow his orders from the start.

"You'll find they are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host."

[Judge Pen]

I've seen it twice now (I'm a geek) and I think that had Anakin not interferred that Mace would have taken Sideous. Yoda fought him to a draw but had to retreat when he lost his lightsaber.

[MasterKiller]

So you liked it?

[stubbs]

Couple of general questions:

Why only one Sith master and apprentice but lots of Jedi's?

After Vader and Sidius die in EP VI, would that bring an imbalance to the force? Shouldn't there be a good/bad, light/dark, yin/yang kind of balance to the force?

Why didn't the Jedi's realise the Chancellor was Sidius? Didn't it say that Sidius made the clone army order 10 years ago but the Jedi's thought he died. Wouldn't they think that Chancellor guy looks strangely familiar or have I followed this bit wrong?
________
PORNSTARS CELESTE (http://www.****tube.com/categories/853/celeste/videos/1)

[MasterKiller]

Why only one Sith master and apprentice but lots of Jedi's? Because Sith compete and kill one another and Jedi don't. If you put two Sith in a room, sooner or later one of them will be dead.


After Vader and Sidius die in EP VI, would that bring an imbalance to the force? Shouldn't there be a good/bad, light/dark, yin/yang kind of balance to the force? Luke is the only Jedi running around. I think the Force can tolerate his lone presence for a while.

Besides, there are lots and lots of Force sensitives in the galaxy. Some good, some bad.


Why didn't the Jedi's realise the Chancellor was Sidius? Didn't it say that Sidius made the clone army order 10 years ago but the Jedi's thought he died. Wouldn't they think that Chancellor guy looks strangely familiar or have I followed this bit wrong? Syfo-Dias ordered the Clone Army initially behind Dooku's back because Dooku was so disillusioned with the Republic after Qui-Gon's death that he wanted to destroy it and start from scratch. Syfo-Dias was one of the Lost 20 Jedi that resigned their commissions, but Dooku's extreme approach frightened him so he ordered the army as a preventitive measure.

Once Dooku learns of Syfo-Dias' order, he kills Syfo-Dias and has the Clone Army re-programmed to fit into Sidious' master plan.

[Judge Pen]

So you liked it?

Oh yes. It's hard to compare it to the Original Trilogy, but I found it second to ESB as far as personal taste.

[MasterKiller]

http://www.storewars.org/flash/

[brothernumber9]

was it ever revealed if Vader ever had an apprentice? Also, whatever happened to Dooku's apprentice, that bald goth sith chic?

[red5angel]

For example, in EP IV, the ride to Alderaan takes 6 weeks, but it looks like it takes about 1 day on screen.


This is incorrect. While Luke and Obi wan are training in the Falcon, Han shows up and says osmehting like "well you can forget about those imperail slugs...." Indicating they had just outrun them, and then he says something like "We should be at alderaan at 0200" Indicating that they will arrive within the next 24 hour period at 2am.

[MasterKiller]

Vader never takes an apprentice because Sidious is his Master. Sidious would have to die before Vader could take an apprentice. That's why he appeals to Luke in ESB that if Luke can help him overthrow the Emperor, they can rule the galaxy as father and son.

In the EU, however, Sidious secretly trains Mara Jade with the intent of her eventually killing Vader. Luke turns her, though, bangs her, and makes some Jedi babies.

Asaaj Ventress was killed by Anakin on Yavin 4, AFAIK. She was a decoy, anyway. Not a true apprentice.

[MasterKiller]

This is incorrect. While Luke and Obi wan are training in the Falcon, Han shows up and says osmehting like "well you can forget about those imperail slugs...." Indicating they had just outrun them, and then he says something like "We should be at alderaan at 0200" Indicating that they will arrive within the next 24 hour period at 2am.

Corellian Cruisers (aka Imperial Star Destroyers) can travel in Hyperspace as fast as the Falcon. They chase the Falcon in Hyperspace, and Han loses them. He's bragging, obviously, calling them slugs, but they have the same hyperdrive.

Alderann is much too far from Tatooine to be a 1 day trip.

Saying 0200 doesn't indicate how long the trip took. What time did they take off? You have no idea from that little bit of information how long the trip actually takes, only the time of day Han expects to reach Alderann.

[MasterKiller]

MK, someone told me the reason Vader cannot throw force lighting (which Dooku can) is that he is more machine than man and has no organic arms. Is that "true?"

According to the EP III Visual Dictionary, you are correct. Vader cannot throw lightning because he has no human arms.

I'm not buying it, though. :p

[red5angel]

After Vader and Sidius die in EP VI, would that bring an imbalance to the force? Shouldn't there be a good/bad, light/dark, yin/yang kind of balance to the force?


The other thing to remember is this is a Jedi Myth. Bring balance to the force may mean that wiping the jedi out, then the Sith is how "balance" is returned. That's also assuming the actual myth has any merit.



They chase the Falcon in Hyperspace, and Han loses them. He's bragging, obviously, calling them slugs, but they have the same hyperdrive.

That's the problem with the EU, I'm guessing you got this informaiton from the EU - since it isn't explicitly mentioned in the movies. I know that some EU sources have indicated communication or contact of any kind with the normal universe in Hyperspace is not possible so according to those sources he wouldn't know he was being chased or that he lost anyone if he were.


My guess is that Lucas just hadn't given it much thought and that the EU brought about the idea that hyperspace took longer then a few hours or so. Lucas needed an expediant way to get people around a galaxy and so created "hyperspace". Hyperspace as it stands in the EU now is a victim of realism brought into science fiction. Someone decided they wanted to be a smart guy and tried to instill more realistic guidlines for hoe hyperspace worked instead of just assuming you can jump from one system to another in a few hours.

[red5angel]

Saying 0200 doesn't indicate how long the trip took. What time did they take off? You have no idea from that little bit of information how long the trip actually takes, only the time of day Han expects to reach Alderann.


He never says "0200 by the Alderanian clock" Or "according to our time when we left Tattooine..." He says we should be arriving in alderan about 0200 implying some sort common reference point with his subjects - Luke and Obi Wan.

[MasterKiller]

He never says "0200 by the Alderanian clock" Or "according to our time when we left Tattooine..." He says we should be arriving in alderan about 0200 implying some sort common reference point with his subjects - Luke and Obi Wan. That common reference point is Standard Courscant Time. All time periods in the Star Wars universe are based on Coruscant's solar cycle.

When Anakin says he's lived on Tattooine "Since I was three," he's not talking about 3 years Tattooine time -- it's 3 years Galaxy time. How long is a year on Tattooine? Doesn't matter. They're talking about Standard years.

Is Yoda 900 years old on Dagobah time, Geonosis time, or Kashyykk time?

At any rate, what does 0200 mean in the context you put in? Nothing...except they all recognize it as some sort of time frame. It does not in any way indicate how long the trip took from Point A to Point B, it's only an indicator of their expected arrival time.

[red5angel]

At any rate, what does 0200 mean in the context you put in? Nothing...except they all recognize it as some sort of time frame. It does not in any way indicate how long the trip took from Point A to Point B, it's only an indicator of their expected arrival time.


That's right , and going strictly with the movie it seems to indicate a much shorter trip then 6 weeks. Why would anyone refer to the end of a 6 week trip by the hour of arrival? If the Imperials had been chasing him long enough that he could estimate their arrival to be within 24 hours, the Imperials would also have a good idea as to where they are going.

[Chief Fox]

I'm not a total geek in this area BUT Han does say that the Falcon can do point 5 past light speed when Luke and Obi Wan first see the ship. So theoretically he could out run them. Also who's to say that Han calculated a straight shot to Alderan? Maybe the reason ploting the course for hyperspace took so long is because Han calculated several jumps specifically to loose those imperial slugs.

A thought about 0200. Maybe the STARWARS calendar is different from ours and 0200 is a date and not a time.

If we've learned anything from all of this it is this "good against remotes is one thing, good against the living, that's another"

[MasterKiller]

That's right , and going strictly with the movie it seems to indicate a much shorter trip then 6 weeks. Why would anyone refer to the end of a 6 week trip by the hour of arrival? Well, going strictly by how the movie looks Luke only trains on Dagobah for like 3 days, too, and we all know that's skewed.

A New Hope looks like it takes about a week, but it's actually spread out over about 3 months.

Empire takes place over the course of about 6 months.

Return of the Jedi takes place over approx. 4 months.

Besides, how else would you refer to the approximate end of a trip other than by the remaining time???

[Chief Fox]

So how long does Luke train on Dagobah?

[MasterKiller]

So how long does Luke train on Dagobah?
three months.

[Judge Pen]

Luke's x-wing has a hyperdrive, right? How long does it take for him to fly from Hoth to Dagobah?

[MasterKiller]

Luke's x-wing has a hyperdrive, right? How long does it take for him to fly from Hoth to Dagobah?

Beats me.

The x-wing has a Hyperdrive motivator of x1, which is the slowest hyperdrive. (Falcon has an x5), so we'll just have to assume it takes 4 times longer than it would the Falcon to do the same trip.

Also, fighters don't have navigation computers. They use Astro-mech droids. So, while the Falcon has 3 nav computers and can map hyperspace routes rather effectively, I don't imagine R2 is quite as handy at navigating hyperspace.

[Judge Pen]

That's a lot of time to be cooped up in that fighter's ****pit. I suppose there's no bathroom breaks along the way.

[MasterKiller]

A fighter can only carry 1 week worth of provisions (that's Standard weeks, Red5 ;) ) so, he'd have to make rest stops along the way.

[Shaolinlueb]

hmm im sure theres lots of space stops to stopp too. goota watch out for the xenophobe though ;)

[red5angel]

Besides, how else would you refer to the approximate end of a trip other than by the remaining time???

Like Chief Fox said, why would anyone refer to the end of a 6 week trip except by calendar date?

My point is that I think ultimately Lucas isn't worried about how condensed the time is. For example If luke Trains on Dagobah for 3 months, then it was either a really long trip to Bespin, which was supposed to be close to where the crew was in the millenium falcon, or they spent a hell of a lot of time at Bespin while luke trained for 3 months. Not too mention the time it might take to get to Dagobah and then get from Dagobah to Bespin.....

So you can look at it that way - or you can look at it like, Luke had been training in what he knew of the Jedi arts since A New Hope and Yoda over a couple of days showed him a few more tricks before he decided to take off. Yoda may have expected him to stick around for a few months but Luke was impatient and jumpy.

[red5angel]

A fighter can only carry 1 week worth of provisions (that's Standard weeks, Red5 ) so, he'd have to make rest stops along the way.


Or, he could use an old Jedi trick and put himself in stasis for the journey. Sheeze MK, you gotta settle on some consistant sources......

[MasterKiller]

Or, he could use an old Jedi trick and put himself in stasis for the journey. Sheeze MK, you gotta settle on some consistant sources......
What's inconsistent? We're talking X-Wings here, not cargo carriers like the Falcon.


Like Chief Fox said, why would anyone refer to the end of a 6 week trip except by calendar date? Well, if it's 12 hours until X-Mas, you don't say "We can open our presents on the 25th." You'd say "We get to open our presents in 12 hours."

They are at the end of a long trip, with only a few hours left until they reach Alderann, so you would naturally refer to the remaining time in hours, not the date.


So you can look at it that way - or you can look at it like, Luke had been training in what he knew of the Jedi arts since A New Hope and Yoda over a couple of days showed him a few more tricks before he decided to take off. Yoda may have expected him to stick around for a few months but Luke was impatient and jumpy. Yoda expected him to stay and train for a couple of years, I would imagine. Jedi trained from the age of 2 to 25 or so. You think Luke learned enough in the three years between ANH and ESB, and a couple of days on Dagobah, to survive a duel with Vader???

That would be like someone wathing UFC tapes for three years, training themself with no training partner, stepping into the ring with Liddell or Coutore. They'd get massacred.

Now, you give Luke 3 months of hardcore training, and maybe he just gets his hand cut off.

[MasterKiller]

If you look at this map, Dagobah is not that far from Hoth. (Hoth is on bottom left corner of blue line. Dagobah is straight across to the right of the green line).

Bespin is right above Hoth. So, conceivably, these are very short trips, possibly no more than a week or two.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/Galaxymap1.jpg

[PangQuan]

Dude, MK, your totally the Star Wars buff round here arentcha?

[MasterKiller]

Dude, MK, your totally the Star Wars buff round here arentcha?
No...there is another.

[@PLUGO]

what's the Kessel Run that Han Solo brags about in epIV?

[Chief Fox]

This thread is getting funny. I'm sure that George Lucas didn't put this much thought into how long it takes to get from one system to another or what the actual time frame the movies takes place in. :D

[MasterKiller]

what's the Kessel Run that Han Solo brags about in epIV?
The Kessel Run is a race of sorts, where you race between cruisers that are jumping in and out of Hyperspace. You try to "tag" each cruiser before they make another jump further away from the starting point. So, the ship that tags all the cruisers in the least of amount of DISTANCE wins.

The thinking is that the Falcon's computer was so advanced that it was able to plot a shorter route through hyperspace than any other ship, and thus travel faster.

Solo's claim to have done it in 12 parsecs is probably a lie, though.

[Chief Fox]

One more thing: When the falcon was on it's way to the Cloud City, it's hyper drive was broken. So maybe it did take them a couple months to get there even though is was pretty close. All the while, Luke is going through his one on one, 12 week intensive Jedi course with yoda.

[MasterKiller]

This thread is getting funny. I'm sure that George Lucas didn't put this much thought into how long it takes to get from one system to another or what the actual time frame the movies takes place in. :D Lucas didn't give it a second thought, I'm sure. But over the last 28 years, fans and the EU have been filling in the gaps. In the end, it doesn't matter. The story is about Vader's fall and ultimate redemption. All this other stuff is just fan-boy nonsense, for the most part.

[Judge Pen]

Yoda expected him to stay and train for a couple of years, I would imagine. Jedi trained from the age of 2 to 25 or so. You think Luke learned enough in the three years between ANH and ESB, and a couple of days on Dagobah, to survive a duel with Vader???

Now, you give Luke 3 months of hardcore training, and maybe he just gets his hand cut off.


Yeah, but Vader wasn't really trying to kill him. He was toying with him the entire time. He only cut off his hand to force the matter to come to an end, and Luke ruined the whole thing by trying to kill himself.

[MasterKiller]

Yeah, but Vader wasn't really trying to kill him. He was toying with him the entire time. He only cut off his hand to force the matter to come to an end, and Luke ruined the whole thing by trying to kill himself. True. He's supposed to bring Luke back intact to the Emperor. That's what the whole Carbon Freeze thing is for.

I still don't think it makes sense to assume Luke is on Dagobah for a couple of days, though. I think Lando delayed fixing the Hyper-drive on the Falcon for as long as he could, a few weeks maybe, and then Vader decided enough is enough and starts torturing Solo to get Skywalker's attention.

[Judge Pen]

That makes sense. Nobody knew where Luke was anyway.

As far a rest stops while in an x-wing. . . . wouldn't that draw attention, a rebel ship pulling into an intergallatic rest stop?

(I love arguing about silly stuff like this!)

[MasterKiller]

That makes sense. Nobody knew where Luke was anyway.

As far a rest stops while in an x-wing. . . . wouldn't that draw attention, a rebel ship pulling into an intergallatic rest stop? There are lots of systems with no love for the Empire, or that are too small/remote to warrant Imperial or Trade Guild involvement (Cloud City, for example).

At any rate, if you look at that map I posted, the close proximity of Hoth, Dagobah, and Bespin suggests that perhaps each trip might have only taken a week, maybe a couple of days more than a week. Without exact measurements between systems, there is no way to be sure, and I'm not geeky enough to start measuring them. So, we'll have to settle for speculation.

[Judge Pen]

I'm not geeky enough to start measuring them.

Splitting hairs now aren't we? :D

[MasterKiller]

Splitting hairs now aren't we? There's a geek line in the sand I refuse to cross.

If you guys really get Star Wars fever, want to waste some time at work, and are curious about how things have changed from Lucas' first vision, check out this site:

http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/scripts.htm

Particulary, this line from the 2nd draft of Star Wars...


As the Republic spread throughout the galaxy, encompassing over a million worlds, the GREAT SENATE grew to such overwhelming proportions that it no longer responded to the needs of its citizens. After a series of assassinations and elaborately rigged elections, the Great Senate became secretly controlled by the Power and Transport guilds. When the Jedi discovered the conspiracy and attempted to purge the Senate, they were denounced as traitors. Several Jedi allowed themselves to be tried and executed, but most of them fled into the Outland systems and tried to tell people of the conspiracy. But the elders chose to remain behind, and the Great Senate diverted them by creating civil disorder. The Senate secretly instigated race wars, and aided anti-government terrorists. They slowed down the system of justice, which caused the crime rate to rise to the point where a totally controlled and oppressive police state was welcomed by the systems. The Empire was born. The systems were exploited by a new economic policy which raised the cost of power and transport to unbelievable heights. Many worlds were destroyed this way. Many people starved...

[PangQuan]

ok, so I could not help myself from geeking out a little. One of the things I really like is that it shows what Threepio is saying. That is neat.

[@PLUGO]

do you mean "shows what R2-D2 is saying?"

[PangQuan]

um, yes...ok so im not as geeky as i should be.

[PangQuan]

sept they spell it Artwo Detwo

[@PLUGO]

ARTWO . . .

that would make a great name for a dog.

[MasterKiller]

They usually spell it Artoo...

[Akhilleus]

Hey guys I just saw it today and loved it...I'm sorry I don't have time to read this whole thread so I thought I'd post my thoughts on the film...

first the bad...the acting...Amidala or whatever her name is would be like "Oh no Annie, don't go to the dark side" and say it almost sarcastically, or like she didn't really care...then when Obi Wan sees the image of Annikan in the temple he was also like, "Oh no, I don't believe it" again, like it was no big deal...

Also it seemed kind of wierd that they would be like "Annie is turing to the dark side" and he has been "misled by lies" after his actions in the temple...as if said lies excuse his actions...sorry those quotes are from memory I think it was more like he has been deceived....

I felt kind of bad for Annie/Darth Vader especially at the end when he learns what happened to his wife or was it his fiance? But at the same time he did some very horrible things...

Anyway I thought it was a really good film...unfortunately I feel asleep for a bit when Obi Wan was fighting Vargus or whatever b/c I had been at the school from 7-2...

[Stranger]

A little help here, please:

1) How is it that R2 can fly in ATC and ROTS, but in ROTJ he takes a thirty foot header off of the side of Jabba's barge to get away with C3-P0? (seemed like a good time to fly)

2) Vader's armor has a solid shoulder armament (no articulated shoulder). How does he raise his hands over his heard? In ANH's and ESB's artwork, they always referred to Vader's stance as the "classic defensive posture" (blade held in one hand parallel to the ground) while Luke is depicted in jodan kamae, or "classic offensive posture" (blade held in both hands drawn up over head). Why would the jedi fight more offensively than a sith? I think Vader's armor wouldn't have allowed him to strike that pose.

3) Has Lucas ever explained why the cave on Dagobah is "strong with the Dark Side"? A spolier said that Dooku was killed there, but that clearly didn't happen in the movie.

4) After Senator Organna's fugitive like behavior, how does he not only avoid capture/prosecution, but also maintain his title and passes it to Leia? How is the sudden appearance of a girl child in his household considered unsuspicious?

5) Speaking of suspicious, how is it that nobody seems to notice Padme and Anakin making out in their initial rendezvous? How does nobody notice that she is pregnant? If they do, how is the 1+1=2 obviousness of Anakin being the father missed by all? She is under constant body guard protection and the only people she is ever alone with are Anakin, Jar-Jar, and her bodyguard with the eye patch. It wouldn't take the Force to solve this mystery.

6) Why doesn't Vader throw Force lightening up until the point he loses his second arm (if having organic arms are truly necessary to perform the skill)?

7)If Obi-wan and Luke's presence are hidden from Vader on Tattoine because Vader would never willingly return there, and Yoda uses the wildlife of Dagobah to cloak his presence, how is Leia's presence masked on Alderan? How do Luke and Leia avoid detection on Hoth?

8) Why is Darth Maul the only Sith using a double ended light sabre in the movies? Why didn't he throw Force lightening?

9) In PM, Darth Maul is able to use a Force projection attack on Obi-wan when Obi-wan gets angered and is not at one with Force. How is it that in ROTS, jedis Force project siths and siths project jedi all over the place? We never saw this in the original three movies.

[BibitClerus]

man i love SW
ill see the new one this week
cos this way i avoided the annoying crowds and etc.

BUT i do think your discussions can get pointless in here
its a movie dude
there are no real Jedi, you know

[Force Persuasion] You will cease your lame discussions on this thread and you will give me your sister's phone number.

[MasterKiller]

How is it that R2 can fly in ATC and ROTS, but in ROTJ he takes a thirty foot header off of the side of Jabba's barge to get away with C3-P0? (seemed like a good time to fly) His boosters were recalled. Seriously.


Vader's armor has a solid shoulder armament (no articulated shoulder). How does he raise his hands over his heard? In ANH's and ESB's artwork, they always referred to Vader's stance as the "classic defensive posture" (blade held in one hand parallel to the ground) while Luke is depicted in jodan kamae, or "classic offensive posture" (blade held in both hands drawn up over head). Why would the jedi fight more offensively than a sith? I think Vader's armor wouldn't have allowed him to strike that pose. Pass.


Has Lucas ever explained why the cave on Dagobah is "strong with the Dark Side"? A spolier said that Dooku was killed there, but that clearly didn't happen in the movie. Yoda killed a Sith accolade in that cave , but not Dooku.


After Senator Organna's fugitive like behavior, how does he not only avoid capture/prosecution, but also maintain his title and passes it to Leia? How is the sudden appearance of a girl child in his household considered unsuspicious? It's a big galaxy, full of orphans (especially after the Clone Wars).


Speaking of suspicious, how is it that nobody seems to notice Padme and Anakin making out in their initial rendezvous? How does nobody notice that she is pregnant? If they do, how is the 1+1=2 obviousness of Anakin being the father missed by all? She is under constant body guard protection and the only people she is ever alone with are Anakin, Jar-Jar, and her bodyguard with the eye patch. It wouldn't take the Force to solve this mystery. She disguises her preganancy and doesn't tell anyone.


Why doesn't Vader throw Force lightening up until the point he loses his second arm (if having organic arms are truly necessary to perform the skill) He chokes mutherfockers. That's his schtick.



If Obi-wan and Luke's presence are hidden from Vader on Tattoine because Vader would never willingly return there, and Yoda uses the wildlife of Dagobah to cloak his presence, how is Leia's presence masked on Alderan? How do Luke and Leia avoid detection on Hoth? The force is mysterious. He does sense Luke once the probe driod shows them the settlement. The galaxy is massive, so I imagine trying to 'feel' someone out who doesn't want to be felt is like searching for a needle in haystack. The probe droid narrowed his focus, and BAM...he knows Luke is there. As for Leia, so what? He doesn't know he has 2 kids. He's obsessed with finding Luke, and he's got tunnel vision.


Why is Darth Maul the only Sith using a double ended light sabre in the movies? Why didn't he throw Force lightening? Because it is too dangerous to fight with a Double Bladed saber. Only Maul was bad @ss enough to attempt it. He doesn't use lightning because he really enjoys killing people with his hands. Really.


In PM, Darth Maul is able to use a Force projection attack on Obi-wan when Obi-wan gets angered and is not at one with Force. How is it that in ROTS, jedis Force project siths and siths project jedi all over the place? We never saw this in the original three movies. in the OT, you see Force Jumping, Force Invisibility, Force Choking, Force Lightning, Vader blocks laser bolts with his hands, Force Precognition, Force lifting (X-wing). It's all about diversity, man.

[Stranger]

1) Cheeky, but I'll buy it.

2) :(

3) Thanks

4) I might buy it, but Senator Organna had to be wanted after he went on the run with Yoda. I think he would have had to answer for it, and in the answering his proximity to Vader and/or Sidious would have left his mind wide open.

5) She didn't hide it well in the movie. I have 15 year old students that can hide a pregnancy better than that.

6) Thanks

7) It's a big universe, but actually walking the very hallways of the Hoth base where his daughter's strong Force presence once was would leave pychometric footprints....or not.

8) True, thanks to Ray Park, DM was a better melee fighter than any other Sith.

9) True, but I thought that things like projection and the mind tricks only worked on those not at one with the Force.


MK,

Thanks for the answers. I knew you'd have them. :)

[lada]

I may as well add my pointless opinion huh? ;)

The droids in the beginning of the movie was when I knew it was a loser. The skinny guard droids? Did you listen to them talk? They sounded like Jar Jar Binks only stupider. One of those little guard droids handed something to Grevious. Grevious rips it out of his hands. The skinny guard droid says "your welcome", sarcastically, like he is C3P0 or something.

Come on. If Grevious is a super bad ass, he is going to take lip from a skinny guard droid? Just like Darth Vader, the scene should have been an opportunity to establish how Grevious was powerful and heartless. He should have destroyed the droid in some spectacular way for being sarcastic.

Grevious is a robot. Why do robot's cough? That has got to the be stupidest thing in any movie I have ever seen. A coughing robot. Robot's don't even breath do they?

Annakin. I really despise that kid. Lucas chose him because he reminded Lucas of what he looked like at that age. Lucas wanted to star in his films so he chose that guy as Annakin. The kid has the acting talent of a floating turd. He is so unlikable I want to smash him in the face because he is such a whiny pud. Really! ;)

I agree with the guy talking about R2. WTF? He starts jumping and flying like he is an X men or something! The whole point of R2 is that he is a defenseless little droid who needs protection so he can do the brainiac thing. If R2 is superdroid, he is not adorable anymore.

The movie was as bad Phantom Menace. Too much reliance on CG and no humanity too it. Star Wars was good because Lucas took unknowns and made them into the characters. The characters were real people that were likable.

This series, Lucas got star actors. He chose Obi Wan because that guy was famous. Like 5 years ago. Everytime I see Samuel Jackson, I see some mad black guy with gun blasting whitey. ;) Palpatine is the only good character and he is evil! You don't want the evil guy to be the only likable one in the movie unless you are recruiting for evil.

You know how you can tell Lucas was desperate? When he takes a little mannikan, Yoda, and makes him the star of the show. Yoda showed more humanity in the fight with Palpatine than any of the human actors. There are some real problems with a movie where a mannikin is the best actor.

The sheer desperation for attention the movie put on me made me so uncomfortable I was literally squirming. I swear the movie was screaming "like me. Please, Please like me! These are really big computer scenes! This is a really cool robot! These bad guys are really bad! Please, Please, Please like me!".

[SimonM]

Grevious is a robot. Why do robot's cough? That has got to the be stupidest thing in any movie I have ever seen. A coughing robot. Robot's don't even breath do they?

Despite many flaws in the movie, this was not one. Grievous was a cyborg. Robot arms, robot legs, robot outer shell, living heart, eyes and (I imagine) lungs. That's why he gets so touchy about being called a robot.



I agree with the guy talking about R2. WTF? He starts jumping and flying like he is an X men or something! The whole point of R2 is that he is a defenseless little droid who needs protection so he can do the brainiac thing. If R2 is superdroid, he is not adorable anymore.

This can be summed up (like so much else in the Ep. 1-3 trilogy) with one simple phrase:

George Lucas is a crackpot who was at his creative peak in the 1970's and 1980's. And for some reason he gets off on flying, beeping trashcans.


Why doesn't Vader throw Force lightening up until the point he loses his second arm (if having organic arms are truly necessary to perform the skill)?
Because Force Lightening is next to useless against an armed and fully trained Jedi. Luke Skywalker was the most sloppily trained Jedi in the history of the order, Yoda and Obi Wan probably forgot to mention that he could ground out Force Lightening with his light sabre.



In PM, Darth Maul is able to use a Force projection attack on Obi-wan when Obi-wan gets angered and is not at one with Force. How is it that in ROTS, jedis Force project siths and siths project jedi all over the place? We never saw this in the original three movies.

Look at the force-users in the original trilogy:

Luke is about equal to a half-trained adolescent Padawan.

Obi Wan is a geriatric who complains that he is "getting too old for this" and who throws his one fight.

Yoda is a muppet.

The Emperor is even older than Obi Wan and doesn't look to be in the best of health. After all Vader is thinking about rubbing him out in "Empire Strikes Back" and does drop him in "Return of the Jedi" (rather literally).

Vader was a ****y, arrogant ******* thirty years before the start of "A New Hope", when he was a Padawan Teenager with Angst issues. He hasn't had a lightsabre duel in twenty years at the start of "A New Hope" and Obi Wan basically gives in without a fight. He's ****y, he makes mistakes.

Leia is barely aware of her potential abilities even at the END of "Return of the Jedi".

Nobody really knows much about Jabba's force strength except that he is immuned to Jedi Mind Tricks issued by half-trained Padawans.

Now let's compare this to the force users in the new series:

Obi Wan is in his prime.

Annakin/Vader is in his prime and fighting constantly.

Palpatine is merely very old and hasn't been on the recieving end of his own Lightening yet.

Darth Maul seems to have actually taken a martial arts lesson or two.

Qui Gon is so strong in the force he figures out how to turn himself into a ghost, apparently (according to Yoda) this is a first.

Mace Windu is protected by not only the force but also by the "Samuel L. Jackson Cool".

Yoda is a CGI monstrosity, not a muppet.

Dookoo is played by Count Dracula himself, you know that he is at least going to have style.

I don't think I am missing any of the big names...

[MasterKiller]

Because Force Lightening is next to useless against an armed and fully trained Jedi. Luke Skywalker was the most sloppily trained Jedi in the history of the order, Yoda and Obi Wan probably forgot to mention that he could ground out Force Lightening with his light sabre.

Look at the force-users in the original trilogy:

Luke is about equal to a half-trained adolescent Padawan.

Obi Wan is a geriatric who complains that he is "getting too old for this" and who throws his one fight.

Yoda is a muppet.

The Emperor is even older than Obi Wan and doesn't look to be in the best of health. After all Vader is thinking about rubbing him out in "Empire Strikes Back" and does drop him in "Return of the Jedi" (rather literally).

Vader was a ****y, arrogant ******* thirty years before the start of "A New Hope", when he was a Padawan Teenager with Angst issues. He hasn't had a lightsabre duel in twenty years at the start of "A New Hope" and Obi Wan basically gives in without a fight. He's ****y, he makes mistakes.

Leia is barely aware of her potential abilities even at the END of "Return of the Jedi".

Nobody really knows much about Jabba's force strength except that he is immuned to Jedi Mind Tricks issued by half-trained Padawans.

Now let's compare this to the force users in the new series:

Obi Wan is in his prime.

Annakin/Vader is in his prime and fighting constantly.

Palpatine is merely very old and hasn't been on the recieving end of his own Lightening yet.

Darth Maul seems to have actually taken a martial arts lesson or two.

Qui Gon is so strong in the force he figures out how to turn himself into a ghost, apparently (according to Yoda) this is a first.

Mace Windu is protected by not only the force but also by the "Samuel L. Jackson Cool".

Yoda is a CGI monstrosity, not a muppet.

Dookoo is played by Count Dracula himself, you know that he is at least going to have style.

I don't think I am missing any of the big names...

Word.



I think when the Emperor says to Vader "Only one other has learned this power, but with your help we can discover it together..." he is talking about Qui-Gon as well.

BTW...Qui-Gon isn't a full-blow Force ghost. He's just a "voice." He tells Yoda in the novel that perhaps, with time and training, they may learn how to merge their physical self with the Force.

[Shaolinlueb]

Word.



I think when the Emperor says to Vader "Only one other has learned this power, but with your help we can discover it together..." he is talking about Qui-Gon as well.

BTW...Qui-Gon isn't a full-blow Force ghost. He's just a "voice." He tells Yoda in the novel that perhaps, with time and training, they may learn how to merge their physical self with the Force.


so how does darth learn to do it at the end of return of the jedi? is that something he learned as a sith?

[MasterKiller]

so how does darth learn to do it at the end of return of the jedi? is that something he learned as a sith? No one ever says, officially. But here's my take:

Qui-Gon gets shocked out of "death" in EP II when Anakin goes ballistic on the Sand People. This causes tremors in the Force, which Sidious surely picked up on. He recruits Vader to help him figure out how it happened.

When Vader kills Obi-Wan in EP IV and he disappears, Vader freaks out. He stomps the robes like "WTF???? Sidious never told me about this!" So, he studies the Force idependently and trains himself.

Now, let's takes a look at the ROTS novel for a moment:


Yoda: My failure this was. Failed the Jedi, I did.

Qui-Gon: Do not blame yourself, my old friend.

Yoda: Too old I was. Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi I trained to become Jedi who had trained me, long centureis ago--but those ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Change, the order did not--because let it change---I did not.

Qui-Gon: More easily said than done, my friend.

Yoda: An infinite mystery is the Force. Much to learn, there still is.

Qui-Gon: And you will have time to learn it.

Yoda: Infinite knowledge.. infinite time, does that require.

Qui-Gon: With my help, you can learn to join with the Force, yet retain consciousness. You can join your light to it forever. Perhaps in time, even your physical self.

Yoda: Eternal life...

Qui-Gon: The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it. It comes only by the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the Darkness...

Yoda: Become one with the Force, yet influence still to have... A power greater than all, it is.

Qui-Gon: It cannot be granted; it can only be taught. It is yours to learn, if you wish it.

So, Vader has the knowledge of how to do it. He knows it's possible. It's his sacrifice for Luke that gives him the ability in the end to merge with the Force. His selflessness in saving his son.

[Vash]

So, is it possible to gain "eternal life" via merging with the force the way Qui-Gon teaches, or does that lead to eventual dissolution of consciousness?

[MasterKiller]

So, is it possible to gain "eternal life" via merging with the force the way Qui-Gon teaches, or does that lead to eventual dissolution of consciousness?
They all eventually lose their ability to retain their identity in the Force.

[Shaolinlueb]

They all eventually lose their ability to retain their identity in the Force.


do they train luke at all and help him along the way or can they only appear for moments at a time?

[MasterKiller]

do they train luke at all and help him along the way or can they only appear for moments at a time?
They train him, somewhat. But it's not like they can interact with him. Obi-Wan can't pick up a lightsaber and show him a move, but they do talk to him and guide his training, and offer advice from time-to-time.

[Shaolinlueb]

They train him, somewhat. But it's not like they can interact with him. Obi-Wan can't pick up a lightsaber and show him a move, but they do talk to him and guide his training, and offer advice from time-to-time.

thats what i meant. obviously he cant pick up a light saber. im surprised they dont talk about in the EU more. i would think anakin would appear more to his son to help him.

[MasterKiller]

thats what i meant. obviously he cant pick up a light saber. im surprised they dont talk about in the EU more. i would think anakin would appear more to his son to help him.
Lucas probably wouldn't let them. Eventually Luke would have to learn the details of his Father's past, and Lucas probably kept a tight lid on it like he did the Clone Wars (even though the ROTJ novel states the Mandalorians were the enemy in the Clone Wars).

[Sacktavius]

Hello, fellow martial artists. Please inform me if I am way off, but I believe Star Wars to use martial arts in lightsaber deuls. It appears to me that the Jedi use a two handed Japanese Kenjutsu style, and that Darth Sidious (Palpatine) uses something like a lion head tai chi sword style. Can anyone good at analyzing styles confirm this? Thanks,

Sacktavius

[joedoe]

I think they are all using a movie-fu style :)

Didn't Lucas say that the original sword fighting style the Jedi movements were based on was Kendo/jutsu?

To be honest I think they just used whatever looked good.

[WanderingMonk]

No, the jedi sword style are based on the long lost flying dragon style of shaolin kung-fu. It is so well concealed few had ever seen it. I heard rumor that Lucas was an apprentice to a fly dragon style master, but Lucas couldn't cut it. The whole story of Anakin Skywalker turning into Darth vader was an allegory of his failure to learn the fly dragon style and becoming a movie director instead. :)

oh, did you know that the light sabre's color is controlled by the users' emotion.

jedi's are colored blue because they were taught to be courageous in battle.

sith's are red because they are mad all the time, that's problem working for the darkside, no happy time.
If they get really, really mad, the sabre color will turn "pink". honest. :)

[MasterKiller]

Hello, fellow martial artists. Please inform me if I am way off, but I believe Star Wars to use martial arts in lightsaber deuls. It appears to me that the Jedi use a two handed Japanese Kenjutsu style, and that Darth Sidious (Palpatine) uses something like a lion head tai chi sword style. Can anyone good at analyzing styles confirm this? Thanks,

Sacktavius

Nick Gilliard, the fight choreographer, made up "Jedi Style" from his experiences in Kendo and fencing.

[Reggie1]

MK,
Was Gillard the fight coordinator for all 6? I remember hearing that Episodes IV-VI were based of kendo/fencing and I-III were just more stunt coordinating.

[MasterKiller]

You're right. He did I, II, and III.


To do this, Gillard had to create a fictional martial art that has an authentic, time-honored feel. Rather than assembling a pastiche of various martial arts, Gillard worked to create a distinctive technique that is based on the fact that the Jedi have specifically "chosen the sword as their weapon." To be able to use such a "short range weapon," he says, against "people who are firing laser guns at you," one must use a fighting style based on speed and economy of movement.

[Sacktavius]

No, the jedi sword style are based on the long lost flying dragon style of shaolin kung-fu. It is so well concealed few had ever seen it. I heard rumor that Lucas was an apprentice to a fly dragon style master, but Lucas couldn't cut it. The whole story of Anakin Skywalker turning into Darth vader was an allegory of his failure to learn the fly dragon style and becoming a movie director instead. :)

oh, did you know that the light sabre's color is controlled by the users' emotion.

jedi's are colored blue because they were taught to be courageous in battle.

sith's are red because they are mad all the time, that's problem working for the darkside, no happy time.
If they get really, really mad, the sabre color will turn "pink". honest. :)

The lightsabers colour is affected by the type of crystal used to focus the arc-wave. Jedi have a ritual of finding these crystals in nature, but the sith do not. They use synthetic crystals, which give it the charactaristic red colour. Anakin's blade should have been red when fighting obi wan if your emotion theory was accurate.

[MasterKiller]

Anakin's blade should have been red when fighting obi wan if your emotion theory was accurate. It was, right up until the final cut of the film. Anakin hit a switch that turned it from blue to red...but they eventually (thankfully) changed their minds and switched it back to blue.

I think he was trying to pull your leg with the above post, though.

[WanderingMonk]

I think he was trying to pull your leg with the above post, though.

it was supposed to be a ha ha post, never will I "pull someone's leg". :)

[KC Elbows]

Question for MK here:

I've seen several sites going into eastern philo as the source for the jedi philosophies, but after reading a bit of Marcus Aurelius' meditations, I noticed that, aside from surviving death, every element the movies suggest for jedi philosophy is encapsulated in stoicism, whereas taoism has nothing like "the force"(the stoics have "logos"), buddhists either, and neither has a tradition of seeking justice(which the stoics do).

Have you seen this relation made anywhere?

Sorry, I misstated that. A friend of mine noticed all that, I was too busy bedding supermodels.

[MasterKiller]

Question for MK here:

I've seen several sites going into eastern philo as the source for the jedi philosophies, but after reading a bit of Marcus Aurelius' meditations, I noticed that, aside from surviving death, every element the movies suggest for jedi philosophy is encapsulated in stoicism, whereas taoism has nothing like "the force"(the stoics have "logos"), buddhists either, and neither has a tradition of seeking justice(which the stoics do).

Have you seen this relation made anywhere?

Sorry, I misstated that. A friend of mine noticed all that, I was too busy bedding supermodels.

I dunno. I can tell you that the Force as we know it was not George's original intention. Lawrence Kasdan is the guy that brought the Zen aspects into Luke's training with Yoda (concentrate on the moment, your body is impermanent...).

Originally, The Force of the Whills was the narrator of the story, and was actually going to have voice-overs during the film. It later became an unseen almost-Jungian collective power called The Force of Others. The Force as seen in the movies still maintains some of this collective concept:

YODA: And well you should not. For my ally in the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we...not this crude matter.You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you... me... the tree... the rock... everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that ship!

So, the Force is created by life. Without life, there is no Force. Yet, the Force is integral in sustaining Life. So, what you have is something you see repeated over-and-over again in the Star Wars universe: a symbiotic relationship.

QUI-GON : Midi-chlorians are a microscopic lifeform that reside within all living cells and communicates with the Force.

ANAKIN : They live inside of me?

QUI-GON : In your cells. We are symbionts with the midi-chlorians.
ANAKIN : Symbionts?

QUI-GON : Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.

At the same time, the Force is not passive. The Force can willfully cause things to happen:
QUI-GON : Finding him was the will of the Force...I have no doubt of that. There is too much happening here...

So you have a willfull intelligence governing the natural laws of the Universe, even going so far as to 'guide' to suit it's needs. But, it does not ultimately control your path. One of the best running threads throught the Star Wars movies is the concept of choice. Anakin chooses to become Vader; Luke chooses not to become like his Father.

Shmi Skywalker : This path has been placed for you, Annie; the choice to take it is yours alone.

LEIA: He's got to follow his own path. No one can choose it for him.

YODA: Decide you must how to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could. But you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered.

So, people obviously are responsible for the decisions they make. But the suggestion is that the Force nudges you where it wants you:


BEN: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.

LUKE: You mean it controls your actions?

BEN: Partially. But it also obeys your commands.


Which sets up some interesting dicotomies. The Force is created by life; yet, it can also create Life when it needs to balance itself out (i.e. Anakin's virgin birth). It controls your actions; yet you can control it. You are responsible for your actions; yet Destiny may have pre-determined your path for you...

In regards to your question, the best answer I can give is that Force is probably more like Emerson's OverSoul than any purely Buddhist concept. I'm not familiar with the other stuff you talked about. It may or may not have influenced Lucas.

[KC Elbows]

Stoicism follows the logos, which is, in a loose sense, the force of nature. The stoic seeks to be at one with the logos, or, at least, not at odds with it.

To be at one with the logos, one must follow a natural path. One must be mindful of their feelings. Feelings often prompt value judgements that are not true. By this account, Yoda and Obi Wan's feelings toward Darth Vader prevent them from accurately perceiving the possibility of his redemption. By being aware of feelings, as opposed to subject to them, Luke senses Vader's good.

Further, the stoic sees humanity as intrinsically bound together, so that for the stoic, helping others is paramount, and of far greater meaning than judging them. For the stoic, their own virtue was not something to place them above others, because that would then make them anti-social, and thus, less human, and thus, less at one with the Logos. While the jedi sought to act in union with the senate for the common good, Vader and Palpatine sought to impose their own will for their own good. The result for Palpatine was to die unaided, because he had isolated himself, and moved away from the true role meant for humankind. Vader, whose emotional fall was always premised by the fear of loss(attachment), was only aided because he, in the end, saw his own life as something that he must give up if a greater good was to prevail. Conversely, when the jedi fall, the survivors survive because they are in tune with a larger "humanity", in the Wookies for Yoda, and then Bail Organna for Obi Wan and Yoda.

The idea is related to judgement: how we judge things to be good or bad, and how many of these things are not really good or bad, but are more truly preferrable or unpreferrable. To be rich may be prefferrable, but it is not, by default, good, as a rich man is not good or bad by his wealth, but by his efforts. So, to pursue wealth because you feel it will make you good blinds you from the realization that you have yet to pursue good at all. That is why you must be mindful of your feelings, because a calm mind perceives more truly the logos and is more fully a part of it.

Marcus Aurelius is probably the best known stoic. His Meditations were notes to himself from when he was an Emporor(ironically enough), though not organized at all times for ease of reading, they are a good read.

The reason I think it's pertinent to looking at the way jedi is presented(as opposed to intended, to look at the movies from "George meant this" perspective doesn't work very well, imo), all attempts I've seen to explain them as close to buddhist and taoist with chivalry thrown in seems somewhat limited for this reason:

1) Neither buddhism or taoism has something even close to synonomous with the force tying it together and placed centrally in one simple term.

2) Chivalry seems unrelated to the jedi's approach to helping the senate.

Whereas stoicism has these advantages:

1) To my knowledge, in the six movies, there is not one single statement on jedi philosophy that doesn't adhere to stoic principles.

2) Logos is closer to analogous to the force than any element of taoism and buddhism.

3) The stoic principle of helping humankind because we all need each other is a superior summary of the behavior of the jedi than chivalry.

Keep in mind, Christopher M could probably explain this much better than I, but hopefully my summary is sufficient to save him from the almost instant loss of a sex life that comes with taking Star Wars seriously.

[MasterKiller]

OK. I'll take your word for everything except this:


3) The stoic principle of helping humankind because we all need each other is a superior summary of the behavior of the jedi than chivalry.

The Jedi are isolationist. They do not necessarily believe in 'helping humankind.' They do not journey throughout the galaxy performing good deeds, or feeding the poor. Qui-Gon could have easily killed or beaten Watto to have him release Shmi Skywalker from slavery, but he didn't. In fact, he told her point blank, "I didn't come here to free slaves."

What you have is a religious order predicated on understanding and using their religion for their own purposes. It just so happens that because of their abilities, sometimes they are asked to venture outside the temple and settle political disputes that would otherwise require large-scale military operations. Before the Clone Wars, the Republic has no standing army. The Republic uses the Jedi as enforcers for Republic policy, and in return they are allowed free reign to practice their religion without question: For example. The Jedi are allowed to take, against their parent's will, Force-Sensitive children from their homes as early as 2 months old to avoid familial bonding to interfere with the child's development. The Republic never even questions this practice. One of the cut lines from Revenge of the Sith has Obi-Wan lamenting this when he sees the dead children Anakin has slain, but he doesn't condemn the practice itself.

While they do believe in inter-connectness, and that all living creatures are acting symbiotically, they also essentially have license from the Republic to kill at will while conducting Jedi business and they liberally apply that license. It would very easy for a Jedi to Force-Choke people into unconsciouness instead of chopping them up with his lightsaber, but we rarely see such compassion from them in combat (only in the hallway of Jabbas palace, actually, when Luke chokes the Gamorrean Guards, and the accepted intepretation of this even is that they died.)

So, I don't know if Logos really applies here.

[KC Elbows]

OK. I'll take your word for everything except this:



The Jedi are isolationist. They do not necessarily believe in 'helping humankind.' They do not journey throughout the galaxy performing good deeds, or feeding the poor. Qui-Gon could have easily killed or beaten Watto to have him release Shmi Skywalker from slavery, but he didn't. In fact, he told her point blank, "I didn't come here to free slaves."

What you have is a religious order predicated on understanding and using their religion for their own purposes. It just so happens that because of their abilities, sometimes they are asked to venture outside the temple and settle political disputes that would otherwise require large-scale military operations. Before the Clone Wars, the Republic has no standing army. The Republic uses the Jedi as enforcers for Republic policy, and in return they are allowed free reign to practice their religion without question: For example. The Jedi are allowed to take, against their parent's will, Force-Sensitive children from their homes as early as 2 months old to avoid familial bonding to interfere with the child's development. The Republic never even questions this practice. One of the cut lines from Revenge of the Sith has Obi-Wan lamenting this when he sees the dead children Anakin has slain, but he doesn't condemn the practice itself.

While they do believe in inter-connectness, and that all living creatures are acting symbiotically, they also essentially have license from the Republic to kill at will while conducting Jedi business and they liberally apply that license. It would very easy for a Jedi to Force-Choke people into unconsciouness instead of chopping them up with his lightsaber, but we rarely see such compassion from them in combat (only in the hallway of Jabbas palace, actually, when Luke chokes the Gamorrean Guards, and the accepted intepretation of this even is that they died.)

So, I don't know if Logos really applies here.


Fortunately for my argument, only the lines that make it in the movie are canon. :D

Additionally, one could look at the prequel trilogy as an indictment of then current jedi practices. After all, the force is brought to balance by not one, but two children who were not trained in the limiting confines of the jedi temple from 2 years old, and Luke, who would generally looked at as far too old to train, is the only one who lacks the basic assumptions of the jedi about the sith that allow him to see that Vader is not beyond redemption.

Once to the EU side you go, forever will it consume your destiny. :p

Okay, I'm a nerd.

[MasterKiller]

Fortunately for my argument, only the lines that make it in the movie are canon. :D

Additionally, one could look at the prequel trilogy as an indictment of then current jedi practices. After all, the force is brought to balance by not one, but two children who were not trained in the limiting confines of the jedi temple from 2 years old, and Luke, who would generally looked at as far too old to train, is the only one who lacks the basic assumptions of the jedi about the sith that allow him to see that Vader is not beyond redemption.

Once to the EU side you go, forever will it consume your destiny. :p

I didn't mention anything EU in the above post that isn't covered in the movies, except the thing about the kids (and it was covered and then cut).

But you are right, the PT (prequel trilogy for non-SW afficionados) is an indictment of the Jedi's arrogance and isolationism. That's sort of the whole point of the PT.

[KC Elbows]

I didn't mention anything EU in the above post that isn't covered in the movies, except the thing about the kids (and it was covered and then cut).

But you are right, the PT (prequel trilogy for non-SW afficionados) is an indictment of the Jedi's arrogance and isolationism. That's sort of the whole point of the PT.

I was just kidding about the EU thing.

It doesn't preclude the logos comparison. While the stoics believed in mankind helping each other, it is still important to to keep in mind that they were ancient greeks and romans. So the idea of kids being taken by force(hadn't heard that in relation to the jedi before) would raise the question "is this good or bad?" The answer, for a stoic, might be "to teach them to live with the logos, and thus have a greater chance to be truly good, is good." I dunno. Aurelius main criticism of the martyring of christians was not that they were martyred, but that he felt their approach to being martyred had everything to do with the self, not the whole(if I recall correctly), so stretching the "helping humanity" idea too far for the stoics might be a bit much. Humanity to many of them might not have extended too far from their city-state or empire.

In the context of the overall series, I would say that Luke, unlike the jedi as you've shown they were at the time of the clone wars, is decidedly part of the rebellion for the overall good not because they allow him to live his religion, but because he is a part of them. So I would say there is not the same isolationism inherent there as with the jedi in the PT.

I would say that puts the end lesson still in the context of stoicism instead of chivalry. Yoda and Mace Windu do not see the betrayal of Dooku because of their attachment to him as a friend, they are attached to a way of training that they do not adjust for Anakin's special case so that his weakness of character can be tended to before the needs(attachment) the jedi have for him and his destiny, and they are wrong about Vader because they cling to a judgement that is mistaken. While Yoda chastises Luke for judging him on his size, Yoda judges Vader on a basis that proves equally wrong. The stoic would say that you should not necessarily expose yourself to harm from others, but you should neither judge others in a way that denies their inherent humanity, because then, you are harming yourself by failing to see that it is the connection we all share that makes us what we are. The Vader story has a lot of that in it. No matter what Yoda says, he is proven wrong about the consumption of Annakin to become Vader, to assume that is an exception is to be too attached to the old jedi's own assumption.

The one sense in which I'd say stoicism does not fit is in the disciplined preservation of the spirit that Kenobi, Yoda, and Anakin undergo. That is closest to the taoist idea of the spiritual embryo.

For the most part, it's not particularly close to buddhism, whatever the filmmaker's intention.

As an aside, in the OT, one of the officers tells Vader that he's the last devotee of his dying religion. Did they not know that Palpatine was a sith?

[Judge Pen]

As an aside, in the OT, one of the officers tells Vader that he's the last devotee of his dying religion. Did they not know that Palpatine was a sith?

No, other than Obi Wan, Yoda, Bail Organa, and Vader, no one knew. The common perception was that the Jedi attempted to assasinate the Emperor and Vader saved him and killed the traitors.

[MasterKiller]

No, other than Obi Wan, Yoda, Bail Organa, and Vader, no one knew. The common perception was that the Jedi attempted to assasinate the Emperor and Vader saved him and killed the traitors.

Correct-a-mundo.

[MasterKiller]

http://www.comicartcommunity.com/gallery/data/media/115/JediHottiesYahoo.jpg