Whats your goal?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


This is a spin off topic from another thread or discussion I am having!


Here's my question! Whats your goal?

When you started training WCK was it because you wanted to defend yourself in the street?

When you started training WCK was it because you wanted to compete in events?

When you started WCK was it because you wanted a hobby?

When you started WCK was it because you liked Bruce Lee?

Lots of stuff is going thru my head right now so keep with me! Most likely I am going to babble a bit!

Its seems to be that MMA is the standard most judge fighting by now a days and thats cool. I look at the MMA guys and they are true pro's that live and train to fight in those events. They spend hours daily working on all sorts of things from boxing to grappling to cardio to road work to proper diet etc.. For anyone to compete in those events one must train hours daily and be in peak condition. No arguments here on that!

How many of us can say we train like that with our WCK? Is this what you want from your WCK?

For me WCK fits my body and for the little bit of free time I have it works for me. Certainly I would love to train more but I am just a hobbiest that spends his free time practicing and chatting during free time at work! I only have the time to train with partners 2 days per week now but I try to constantly improve my understanding and fighting skill during those sessions and the sessions when I meet outsiders to mix it up with. Although its not as often as it was before I got married! ooops! I hope the wife doesn't read KFO! hehe

I feel that WCK is good for me and because of its simpistic brilliance I can make better use of it versus if I was to do some other art or arts a couple of days per week. I would rather be as good as I can be with the time I have available at one thing than mediocre at a few. I also enjoy the health aspects WCK has provided me as I do not get colds and am much more relaxed as a person. For me, all the harder arts and grappling arts are very cool and effective but the toll it takes on the body (or my body when I trained that stuff) was just not cool and I dont want to have a painfull old age because of some hobby I did when I was younger. Its all too common! I want something that keeps me healthy and I am able to have fun with as I grow older. I also want something that I can defend myself with if the situation should come about! Now! This is not to say the others arts cannot be practices as you get older but I just do not care for the stress it places on the body. This is just my opinion!

Do you feel if you were to meet and fight with others from MMA or whatever with the same ammount of time placed into their training as you have for your would you do ok? Do you feel if you were to meet and fight with others who train more than you would you do ok?

Whats some of your experiences and thoughts about what you can get out of it for the time you put into it comapred to other stuff?


Thats it for now!


Adios!

[Kevin Bell]

Hey Jim,

Here's my contribution. I stress these are my thoughts only and are not designed to lead to greater discussion/argument as to who's reasons are more valid etc.

Well why do i WC? Because i can, i enjoy it. I also enjoy fighting. I believe potentially/conceptually to be an effective system of fighting if applied to the modern day street arena. I've got absolutely no interest in how people fought 50 years ago to 200 years ago so im kinda of the viewpoint that its an evolving system.

I dont believe it to be a competition with anyone, "competing in events" if these events have rules then to me its not WC. Chi Sau girl fights mean nothing. Im training for gratuitous violence found in any urban dump. Rules? i tell the people i know to cheat like hell.

Its got nothing to do with Bruce Lee.

I also believe in fighting to "test oneself". To explain this a little;
Its unrealistic to go and attack some poor fellow in the street - i dont particularly want a criminal record but i believe in trying to replicate fights (and ive had the misfortune to have had my fair share, ive hurt people, made sure they were hurt and have been hurt myself) as near as possible, training realistically off people WC and people outside of the system. Again its needs to be recognised that despite trainin hard, realistically, a simple hard punch in the face can put us all down

Well thats it for now wrapping up at work and gym is calling :)

Cheers
Kev

[Ernie]

What’s your goal?


My goal =)
To learn about myself =)
MMA [label] wing Chun man [label]
Traditional /modern more labels

These things mean nothing to me, training methods that produce real world results, these results should transcend, ring /mat /street
They should simply make you perform better no matter if you’re on cement, canvas, and cage

Understanding your body and mind, learning to use them to produce the desired result, based on your personal goal

Researching training methods, that are producing real world results, not blindly following lineage, sifu, or style

What is my personal goal; I’m drawn to the brutal honesty of the street
I understand that were the unknown chaos is[instead of known chaos sport/rules], there can be no one way
You must be as simple as possible but as complicated as needed

There is no winning just surviving

This is my honesty compass

I leave the rest for the robots and sport people

[Jim Roselando]

Excellent post guys!

One thing I find in WCK that fits nice for me versus the the sport related type martial arts or grappling is that cardio is not the major factor in WCK! Some may disagree with this but thats ok! We can debate that to! hahaha

My old JKD instructor told me once:

Jim! I love JKD but its a young mans game. As you get older you need to go for the less boxing based stuff otherwise you will always need to do your road work and cardio to keep your stuff sharp or functioning properly.

Now! I have met people that have excellent fitness at advanced age but I prefer my art (for me) as its persormance is not based around peak physical conditioning.

Another thing I really like is that when I needed to really use my stuff against street people who really wanted to hurt me it worked! It may not have been pretty but it worked! That more than anything means probally the most to me! Especially since it was more than once!

Just my opinions/thoughts!

[Ultimatewingchun]

I liked your opening post, Jim...because you're being honest and upfront about what you're doing - without making big claims about the wing chun you do.

It is what it is...

and that's a refeshing point of view on a forum that all too often contains some really over-the-top claims about wing chun.

That said...my own personal agenda has always been to cover a possible streetfight scenario as the single biggest reason why I got involved in Wing Chun - but certainly not the only reason.

It has also helped to greatly improve my life in many other ways as well (powers of concentration, my general health and well being - as it keeps me in excellent shape and mentally stimulated, and has provided the opportunity to make some long-term friendships).

[Hendrik]

After watching Shall We Dance,

My goal is to learn Ball room dancing .. learning Mamba ... quick steps.. and meeting sexy instructor as Jenifer Lopez ..... and living happily there after. :D

[mortal]

I study to be a point sparring champion!

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Vic!


Thanks!

I also agree with your post as I have some very good friends because of this stuff. Yes! Kung Fu indeed effects our lives even more than the self defense/fighting aspect.

Rene mentioned to me a long time ago that Sum Nung said:

Wing Chun can be a powerful tool for making friends!

How true!


Gotta Run!

[Tom Kagan]

One day, I started "jonesin'" for the Martial Arts drug. I chose Ving Tsun because when I opened the yellow pages of the phone book, I found:

Aikido Boxing Boxing Boxing Judo Judo Jujitsu Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Karate Kickboxing Kickboxing Kickboxing Kickboxing Kickboxing Kickboxing Kickboxing Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Tae Kwan Do Ving Tsun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun Wing Chun.

WTF? I just had to put the "one line Ving Tsun & and phone number listing" on my roster of places to check out. (How do I even pronounce that? ;) )

I found some schools that I liked (one boxing, and, yup, some Karate too) However, the Ving Tsun place, run by Lee Moy Shan, was in a basement only a few blocks from me. That was just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too convenient to pass up and it was cheap. I stayed seven months.

A decade later, I started "jonesin'" for the martial arts drug again. I stumbled across 45 E. Broadway while checking out some other places. Moy Yat gave me the once over. He then invited me to watch his class (I later found out that was somewhat unusual for him). He didn't seem to be paying a lot of attention to the students - certainly not the typical "drill sargent style, hovering hawk" classes I was usually finding elsewhere. Afterward, he told me to go check out the other places and said goodbye.

No salespitch, nothing. He hadn't even mentioned how much he charged in that first meeting. Just five sentences I'll never forget: "I don't know what you're looking for. But if you want to learn Ving Tsun, you will. If you want to learn Ving Tsun from me, I'll try to teach you. Maybe it doesn't work out that way. You never know."


I don't have a "goal" in the usual sense of what I think you are asking in your question. I'm just trying to enjoy the journey and keep myself from getting carsick. I'll find out where the trip leads when I get there. :cool:

[anerlich]

Personally, I want something that will motivate me to do my cardio.

According to the CDC, you are several thousand times more likely to die from lifestyle-related heart disease than as a victim of violent assault, so doing the math indicates what you should concentrate on if survival is your main concern.

I also want something that's going to motivate and promote healthy joints, strength and mobility into old age, and for this I've found vigorous exercise is the solution.

I'm also fascinated by tactics and the use of structure and leverage to control.

I'm not overly competitive, but I see MA as more analogus to sports than RBSD. If you want the latter, read "Strong on Defense". Going through life readying yourself for imminent attack at every moment is a poor existence. Move to a safer neighbourhood.

As regards spiritual and character development, a sporting and competitve paradigm, learning to deal with losing (and winning) and overcoming challenges is far more sensible than zooming into the mystical belonging to a culture to which I am not part, or trying to prove I am more enlightened or disciplined than anyone else.

Learning to become very good at one thing doesn't interest me, per the saying "an expert is someone who learns more and more about less and less, until they know everything about nothing". Examples abound of people who reached elite levels in two or more unrelated martial arts, even while pursuing a full time career unrelated to MA. Life's too rich to stay inside artificial boundaries laid down by dead people you never met.

[mortal]

Oh, also to kill people with just a touch. The only thing is now I have to wear gloves all the time or risk killing someone I like.

[PaulH]

To see clearly, hear rightly, and speak truthfully with hands and heart. =)

[Ernie]

Oh, also to kill people with just a touch. The only thing is now I have to wear gloves all the time or risk killing someone I like.

be careful when you touch yourself !!!!!!!

[Gangsterfist]

my goal?

To be with two hot chicks at once ;)

[anerlich]

To see clearly, hear rightly, and speak truthfully with hands and heart. =)

I still have to use the larynx and mouth, or the keyboard ;)

[anerlich]

and meeting sexy instructor as Jenifer Lopez ..... and living happily there after

"happily ever after" is a pretty short time with J-Lo, looking at her track record.

[PaulH]

"I still have to use the larynx and mouth, or the keyboard - Anerlich"

Why didn't I think of this? You are most wise! =)

[Hendrik]

"happily ever after" is a pretty short time with J-Lo, looking at her track record.


past in not equal to future, and am I going to live forever or i might die the next second? GOD knows.

short time can be ever after if one appreciate what one has.

[anerlich]

short time can be ever after if one appreciate what one has.

Then lusting after J-Lo would be a bad idea (desire, suffering, Buddhism, yadayada...).

[old jong]

I have no special goals with Wing Chun.I just want to get as good as possible in it and to be able to practice and teach it for a very long time.I like it!... ;)

O.K! teaching a class of sexy movie stars* (1) would not be so bad either!... :cool: :D


*(1) Female sexy movie stars only!... :)

[Vajramusti]

WC Goal?

To develop the right wu sao and timing to deal with Cerebrus at the crossing or Yama's black dog at the river on the way home..

[Hendrik]

Then lusting after J-Lo would be a bad idea (desire, suffering, Buddhism, yadayada...).

with one's mind grasping one's own though, what is not illusive becomes illusive.

your suffering is forsure since you love to graps.

see, there is different between lotus from the mud and you dive right into mud.

lotus stays clean but no guarentee about you not get stick and stuck in the mud while diving into the mud. hehehehe that is Zen.

[anerlich]

your suffering is forsure since you love to graps.

I don't know how to graps, so I don't know that I'd love it. :rolleyes:

Patronising would also lead to suffering, I'd imagine.

[saifa5k]

HI Jim,
For those of us that have to work 40 hours a week and family responsibilities I truly believe that wing chun is the most efficient means of self defense. I also practice wing chun because unlike most martial arts there is not a direct correlation between conditioning and fighting ability. For the street as opposed to the ring wing chun is the best form of self defense for the average person that doesnt have 20 hrs a week to train.
Dave c

[t_niehoff]

Lots of people have what they call "goals" -- that doesn't make them realistic or attainable. Nor does it mean that they are necessarily doing those things that will produce the results they're after. IME a lot of the "marketing" of WCK is directed at folks with those unrealistic or unattainable goals, and then with cooperative practice they are sold that they are achieving their goals.

Folks that think they can fight well (using WCK or anything for that matter) without good cardio or conditioning are living in a fantasy world -- but there will always be some willing to sell them that fantasy. Folks that think cardio or being in good condition is only for the young are also living in an unhealthy world. Folks that think WCK is for self-defense or that WCK is a good form of self-defense don't understand self-defense. Folks that think they will be able to defeat larger, faster, stronger folks without becoming highly skilled themselves are living in a fantasy world. Folks that think they can become highly skilled without good cardio, without good conditioning, without doing a great deal of fighting, are living in a fantasy world. There is a lot of fantasy surrounding WCK.

The real question is do you have realistic goals (and are you taking realistic steps to reach those goals) or do you have unrealistic fantasies/dreams? If you are an out-of-shape, out-of-condition, WCK "practitioner"; if you're someone that doesn't fight as part of your training; if you are into role-playing, practicing hei gung, using dim mak, practicing iron palm, developing your internal power, etc.; and so on; then you don't have goals, only fantasies.

BTW, gangersterfist -- you better have good cardio for that goal! ;)

[saifa5k]

Terence if your wing chun is dependent on a high state of cardio then you are not doing Yip Man wing chun.
Dave c

[Ernie]

Terence if your wing chun is dependent on a high state of cardio then you are not doing Yip Man wing chun.
Dave c

don't forget to break the opium pipe out ! keep it traditional ;)

[Gangsterfist]

don't forget to break the opium pipe out ! keep it traditional ;)


**Drops pipe**

You mean we don't have to smoke this stuff?

[Ernie]

**Drops pipe**

You mean we don't have to smoke this stuff?

hope you didn't burn a whole in your silk PJ's or pretty sash :eek:

anyway back to the regular scheduled program [ construction of the living robot blue print 1900 ] :p

[Jim Roselando]

Hey guys,


Some interest thoughts and some interesting opinions!

How about this? Should we all start doing what the Brazilians call (spelling is going to be way off on this one but it sounds like) Wuistro! Steroids! This will boost our recovery time and supercharge our athletic performance. Why not? The guys in the UFC do it and since they are the standard most use for real fighting level shouldn't we do that to? Even the average guys at the local BJJ schools I am friends with love Creatine (sp?) to boost their strength for the average tourny!

Seriously tho!

How about this ultra sensative topic of CARDIO!

First lets realistically define exactly what we are doing or something close to what we are doing! Are we or are we not supposed to be a Rou Jing art in which Soft carries the Hard? Or! Are we some other type of art that uses a different base?

Now, if we so-called WCK practitioners are are truly a Rou Jing based art then isn't Carido something that goes against the principles of our art? Why am I saying that? Because cardio causes the heart rate to accelerate/pump where as the goal is just the opposite of our training! Rou Jing, Stillness, etc.. Any true practitioner of these sort of arts work on slowing down the heart rate and relaxing the mind! Now! I know that sparring regular helps your get comfortable and relax during exchange but Cardio type exercise is counter-productive to our training! Fighting in the street is much different from multiple rounds in the ring or a time limit on the mat. Two totally different types of fighting. Street fighting is fast anf furious. If a fight lasts more than a a few seconds in reality then you have already lost IMHHO. Thats when things start breaking down or the other guy was just better! Certainly at this point a back up system is needed but we are not talking about that are we? We are talking about Wing Chun Kuen!


Agree or disagree?


Another thing that is very interesting to me is all the talk about MMA/UFC being the way to go. If your stuff does not hold up in those venues then its certainly not worth much right! Well, when will we see someone/anyone from that camp entering/competing or winning one of those or any event even similar to that with their UFC ready WCK? Until then I feel they need to show us some sort of results or placing status! Wheres the results? Anyone??? Please show us the real results from those competitions? Look forward to seeing them!


I am sure the cardio topic is not going to sit well with some but first we need to define what we actually are doing! Agree or disagree?


Regards,

[Gangsterfist]

Sounds like an excuse to me to be lazy, but thats just my opinion. Even ho kam ming encourages exercise, and when I met his student from maccau he was very fit for his age. It seems that later on in training after some basics are learned a lot of people i know encourage exercise.

Also, I was under the impression cardio exercise infact lowers your heart rate for exercising it.

If the body is not healthy then there is no harmony between the body and the mind. You must train the body as you do the mind. AKA - if you constantly think about training its a good idea to actually get off your butt and train once in a while.

[Jim Roselando]

Gangsterfist,


Sounds like an excuse to me to be lazy, but thats just my opinion.

Lazy has nothing to do with it. At all! Its just the training of our Kung Fu.

Even ho kam ming encourages exercise, and when I met his student from maccau he was very fit for his age. It seems that later on in training after some basics are learned a lot of people i know encourage exercise.

Nothing wrong with exercise but we are talking about WCK and if WCK is Rou Jing/Stillness then we are having a conflict of opinion. What is Stillness or Quiet?

Also, I was under the impression cardio exercise infact lowers your heart rate for exercising it.

When you are running is your heart rate pumping harder or less? When you skip rope does your heart rate speed up? When you finish training do have the thumping feeling in your chest from your heart pumping or does it actually slow down?

If the body is not healthy then there is no harmony between the body and the mind. You must train the body as you do the mind.

Sure! Different art have different platforms for the body and mind! Not everything is universal IMHHHO. Everything is not everything! So the harmony is there but the training is just different. How do you know if you have harmony of mind and body? If WCK relaxes the body then certainly relaxing the mind/heart and other stuff is part of the harmony of WCK.

AKA - if you constantly think about training its a good idea to actually get off your butt and train once in a while.

Good advice! I dont know who this was directed towards, or what this has to do with this topic, but still good advice.


Regards,

[Gangsterfist]

Jim,

Definately not geared towards you, just a general statement. About the cardio comment, lance armstrong one of the worlds best bicyclist heart beats about 28 beats per a min when he is relaxed and at rest. That is a result of his vigorous cardio training from bicycling. So, could cardio not infact help us slow down our heart when we are resting?

Just thought I would toss that idea out.

I was referring if your goal is to be a great martial artist, and that also yields being a great fighter, WCK will take advantage of all your physical attributes. Being healthy and in shape definately helps.

About your stillness and quiet, that can be interperted many ways. I have heard use stillness to beat motion, and be quiet so you can listen to your opponet, and you listen by feeling.

I guess it depends on how you interpret. However, I have people I train with who do not exercise at all, and they cannot even chi sao for extended times.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello G.F.,


Definately not geared towards you, just a general statement.

:)

About the cardio comment, lance armstrong one of the worlds best bicyclist heart beats about 28 beats per a min when he is relaxed and at rest. That is a result of his vigorous cardio training from bicycling.

We cannot use the phenom type people to judge IMO yet we may use them as example of why they are better like Lance! Guys like Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretski, Tiger Woods, Lance, Rickson etc.. these are all outstanding or the 1 in a million type people. But! You are correct with his heart rate running on a much lower than normal! Thats why he can perform at a higher rate for a longer time period!

So, could cardio not infact help us slow down our heart when we are resting?

When we are resting but during training/combat is not like watching TV. Indeed there are benefits from Cardio! No doubt! I am not stating there isn;t but I am talking about WCK. How about this idea! Why not purchase a heart rate tool. They are cheap enough! Wear it when you are just relaxing and see what the average is. Then, wear it when you do your SNT and check. Then wear it when doing Chi Sao and check. See what the results are? Up or down!

Just thought I would toss that idea out.

Good points!

I was referring if your goal is to be a great martial artist, and that also yields being a great fighter, WCK will take advantage of all your physical attributes. Being healthy and in shape definately helps.

Still, there are different types of health for different activities! I know a lot of people will not agree with my post! Probally most! But! There may be some truth to it! WCK mind, body, harmony!

About your stillness and quiet, that can be interperted many ways. I have heard use stillness to beat motion, and be quiet so you can listen to your opponet, and you listen by feeling.

Is it just feeling or is it the state of being one strives to attain thru the art and during combat?

I guess it depends on how you interpret. However, I have people I train with who do not exercise at all, and they cannot even chi sao for extended times.

Sure! Indeed they work too hard and get frazzled. Slow it down with them and let them relax into it and gradually pick up the pace so that they can function normally in Chi Sao.


Regards,

[anerlich]

Guys like Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretski, Tiger Woods, Lance, Rickson etc.. these are all outstanding or the 1 in a million type people.

What about Yip Man? William Cheung? Emin? ...

Dismissing the hard work and extreme dedication of the people you mention as an fortuitous accident demeans both them and their sport/professions IMO.

They're human beings like the rest of us, who just worked harder and longer at it than anyone else.

In my experience, natural talent is one of the least important attributes for success in any physical endeavour.

If you believe you can or can't be as good as the phenoms ... then you're right!

My first instructor, when in hospital for an operation, used to amuse himself by practising breathing techniques in bed to get his hear rate down into the low thirties to freak the nursing staff out. He's one of the best martial artists I've ever met, but he'll be the first to agree he was blessed with no special physical attributes.


Are we or are we not supposed to be a Rou Jing art in which Soft carries the Hard?

I didn't realise I was "supposed" to be doing anything. In any case many MA's claim such a thing. BJJ does, and IMO is just as fit for this claim than Wing Chun. <straw man alert>Even if some of it's practitioners take creatine</straw man alert>, like athletes in every other sport under the planet. BJJ is a sport, but it's also very much an art, one that relies on technique and leverage rather than strength and endurance.

I don't subscribe to your or anyone else's idea of what WC is or how best to train it. We may share some goals, but if not that doesn't mean yours are more legitimate or "closer to the true spirit of Wing Chun" :p than mine or anyone else's.

In any case, I think WC's methods for controlling breathing and other autonomic functions are pretty simplistic and crude compared to Yoga, ROSS and a number of other disciplines. If reaching the states you are talking around is your goal, I suggest you take up something else.

I do cardio to pump up. I do yoga to chill out. I want to experience the continuum.

Think that's wrong? Opinion noted *yawn*

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Dismissing the hard work and extreme dedication of the people you mention as an fortuitous accident demeans both them and their sport/professions IMO."

GLAD SOMEBODY said that....geez.

The heart needs to be strengthened and exercised - so OF COURSE cardio workouts are good for you.

The key is knowing how much cardio to do...if you're one of these people running 8-10-12 miles per day....you will build up so much muscle around the heart that you will have big problems as you get older as the heart will try to pump more blood than is normal for its age in order to "feed" those overblown muscles...and you could actually suffer an early heart attack.

If you do NO cardio the heart muscle will get weak - and you are subject to the same possible early heart attack.

Funny how nature constantly tries to tell us to take the middle road in just about everything.

Running 1-2-3 miles at a time on a regular basis is the way to go.

And quite frankly - without doing that...as a martial artist/fighter...

you're going to run out of gas VERY QUICKLY.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Anerlich,


What about Yip Man? William Cheung? Emin? ...

What about them?

Dismissing the hard work and extreme dedication of the people you mention as an fortuitous accident demeans both them and their sport/professions IMO.

Keep in ming I am not saying they did not work hard! That should be a given. Nothing good comes without hard work!

They're human beings like the rest of us, who just worked harder and longer at it than anyone else.

Some put in more work than others and do not excel. Some do! One cannot deny that some people just have the gift! Thats what makes them the exception to the rule usually! Usually!

In my experience, natural talent is one of the least important attributes for success in any physical endeavour.

No doubt hard work can make up for ones natural abilities but still certain people can do thing better than others without as much hard work. Just my opinion!

If you believe you can or can't be as good as the phenoms ... then you're right!

I think you know what I mean. If not! Then you should by now! :-)

My first instructor, when in hospital for an operation, used to amuse himself by practising breathing techniques in bed to get his hear rate down into the low thirties to freak the nursing staff out. He's one of the best martial artists I've ever met, but he'll be the first to agree he was blessed with no special physical attributes.

Thats cool! So! He is an example of how hard work can pay off.


I didn't realise I was "supposed" to be doing anything.

You are only supposed to doing what you want! I am just talking about WCK on a WCK discussion board!

In any case many MA's claim such a thing. BJJ does, and IMO is just as fit for this claim than Wing Chun. <straw man alert>Even if some of it's practitioners take creatine</straw man alert>, like athletes in every other sport under the planet. BJJ is a sport, but it's also very much an art, one that relies on technique and leverage rather than strength and endurance.

You are correct! Its indeed an awesome art! But! Many many of its pro figters that compete in UFC and other events use that stuff to speed up the recover time and to keep them performing at peak! Most pro sport people do! So, when people talk and compare the average person to the Pro's we must take into account all the stuff one need to do if they wish to fight in a similar type event or level. All just examples!

I don't subscribe to your or anyone else's idea of what WC is or how best to train it.

Thats ok! I dont either! Wing Chun was defined a long time ago! We dont need to subscribe to anyones idea! Just trying to understand it better.

We may share some goals, but if not that doesn't mean yours are more legitimate or "closer to the true spirit of Wing Chun" than mine or anyone else's.

Sure! You are right! Everyone has their own opinion and views. But, some stuff is undeniable IMO. Listed out very clear for us to understand and for us to use as training guides for our WCK.

In any case, I think WC's methods for controlling breathing and other autonomic functions are pretty simplistic and crude compared to Yoga, ROSS and a number of other disciplines.

OK! What is WC method of controlling breathing in your opinion? Whats the difference between WCK and Yoga?

If reaching the states you are talking around is your goal, I suggest you take up something else.

No need IMO. WC is just fine for that. Actually, most Rou Jing arts have this training.

I do cardio to pump up. I do yoga to chill out. I want to experience the continuum.

Excellent! Then you have good experience. Most avoid the Chill Out part which is very important.

Think that's wrong? Opinion noted *yawn*

Nothing wrong with any of it. Just a very sensative topic!

Hey man! Appreciate the chat! Good points!


Regards,

[anerlich]

OK! What is WC method of controlling breathing in your opinion?

I've seen very few lineages that have more than a few very basic qigong exercises (basic stances, moving the arms in concert with subtle body mechanics related to diagphragmatic breathing, at various levels of internal pressure) and some fairly basic lip service to integrating breathing with strikes.

If you have something more sophisticated, I'm happy to be educated. But as I'll discuss below, I'm less than convinced that such is a good idea anyway.


Whats the difference between WCK and Yoga?

As you put it so nicely above, "I think you know what I mean". Yoga is a Indian system of physical mental and spiritual integration. Wing Chun is a TCMA.

I'd rather fighting arts concentrated on being fighting arts, rather than claiming to be all inclusive health systems, systems of mental and/or spiritual development, religious practices and social programs, even cultural niches and fashion guidelines. In my experience such systems try to be all things to all men/persons and as a consequence end up doing nothing particularly well.


Actually, most Rou Jing arts have this training.

And, *actually*, most are much more sophisticated than WC in that regard, though the other than incidental relevance of that to an art allegedly used for combat is open to challenge.

[Jim Roselando]

Brother Anerlich!


I've seen very few lineages that have more than a few very basic qigong exercises (basic stances, moving the arms in concert with subtle body mechanics related to diagphragmatic breathing, at various levels of internal pressure) and some fairly basic lip service to integrating breathing with strikes.

Cool! Lots of different approaches and all have value.

If you have something more sophisticated, I'm happy to be educated. But as I'll discuss below, I'm less than convinced that such is a good idea anyway.

Nothing more sofisticated. I believe Stillness is a core component in WCK. Hence why SLT/SNT typically does not move around. Indeed a hard to argue similarity to Jam Jong. I believe (not sure so dont shoot me :-)) that I heard a WCK Kuit that states: Breath deep and natural. More or less the Water method versus the way some focus stuff which would be more Fire method as most call it. So, thats what I try to do. I think a good side training is Jam Jong. One post is plenty. Thats a good way to isolate and focus on the core and in the process it will get the juices flowing. It definetely transfers over to your WCK and then you dont need it anymore. You did Xing I right? Whats you opinion on San Ti?



As you put it so nicely above, "I think you know what I mean". Yoga is a Indian system of physical mental and spiritual integration. Wing Chun is a TCMA.

Ooops! My bad! I mean for your body? Not the spiritual stuff!

I'd rather fighting arts concentrated on being fighting arts, rather than claiming to be all inclusive health systems,

Isn't the first step toward being a good fighter is being healthy or having a healthy body? What good is Kung Fu or any art if it actually speed up your way to the grave. Hard arts are the perfect example. They close up your body and cut off circulation where as a soft and open body is much healthier. Hard fighters are really strong and tough. They pump the iron and that is indeed one form of strength/fitness but exactly the opposite of what we want. I did loads of cardio for many years. Love it! My heart was and is healthy and stronger which means it did not work as hard during activity. Now a days I have a different focus but still healthy.

systems of mental and/or spiritual development, religious practices and social programs, even cultural niches and fashion guidelines. In my experience such systems try to be all things to all men/persons and as a consequence end up doing nothing particularly well.

I agree with you! I am not saying WCK is everything. God knows I am not one of those guys but I do think some stuff is key to our developing. Breath, heart rate, mind would be part of it.


And, *actually*, most are much more sophisticated than WC in that regard, though the other than incidental relevance of that to an art allegedly used for combat is open to challenge.

Sure. Some art are just way way to rich and have too little good for the street but WCK IMHO is not just a relaxed structure with fast hands.


Gotta run amigo!


Ciao,

[anerlich]

Isn't the first step toward being a good fighter is being healthy or having a healthy body? What good is Kung Fu or any art if it actually speed up your way to the grave.

Is there any real evidence that WC extends the lifespan, or active lifespan? It seems to me that people like WSL and Jerry McKinley, and perhaps YM, died before their time, may they RIP. Whereas Helio Gracie, of the creatine-guzzling, cardio-blasting BJJ system, is still kicking at 90+.

Personally, I think MA training of any type has little impact on longevity if one leads an otherwise healthy lifestyle.

Some say that WC is bad for the knees in the long term, though I've seen little evidence of this in TWC and certainly haven't experienced it myself after 15 years. Ive heard of knee injuries amongst my fellow students by misadventure while training, but not one from cumulative effects of standing in the TWC neutral stance.

As for Xingyi, the academy I trained at did cardio ALL THE TIME, including running round two city blocks three times in bare feet in the middle of every class. We also did a 5 element Taoist yoga and taiji. I don't do Xingyi or the rest anymore; the teacher was a doctor of TCM and chiropractor so I had a lot of insights into the relationships between Xingyi and acupuncture; however the acupuncture treatments I had for various ailments had no effect on me (though the chiropractic was very helpful). He also had issues related to influence and control, and general use of alleged arcane Oriental mysticism and alchemy, and related b*llsh*t, which I eventually grew far beyond totally sick of and led to me quitting all MA for four years.

So, from my empirical experience, TCM doesn't work that well, and thus the xingyi based on it is unlikely to either, from a health POV at least. YMMV.

No doubt my extreme skepticism related to some of the more hyperbolic claims regarding the impact of TCMA training on health is related to my bad experiences at the hand of this particular instructor, but so far I've seen very little since that would change my mind.

That said, this guy was no mouth boxer. He was VERY powerful and skilled. An enormously formidable fighter, just with a personality that made him toxic as a teacher.

Xingyi is an internal system, but it is NOT a soft system like taiji is allegedly supposed to be. It's as hard as a fist of diamond, according to the aforementioned instructor.

I was very fit and healthy then (I stopped Xingyi 20 years ago); but I'm still very fit and healthy now for a 50 year old.


They pump the iron and that is indeed one form of strength/fitness but exactly the opposite of what we want.

Er, the opposite of what YOU want, and I'm not sure the opposition is as diametrical as you suggest.

My Sifu both pumps iron and trains cardio several times a week. He's as good as anyone I've ever seen in both the hard and soft aspects of MA (and WC is not JUST about softness, nor is taiji). My first instructor also advocated weight training and cardio, though not to the same degree. Proper weight training can and does reduce susceptibility to injury and the muscle degradation related to aging. I hgave it up for a couple of years to do bodyweight exercises instead; my return to the iron mad a nagging shoulder twinge I'd had for years effectively disappear.

I'm a postmodernist. Even if you tell me you've got the perfect system that does everything, I'm still going to be looking at what everyone else is doing and probably appropriating some of it. Even if just to avoid boredom.

[KPM]

Hey guys,
Now, if we so-called WCK practitioners are are truly a Rou Jing based art then isn't Carido something that goes against the principles of our art? Why am I saying that? Because cardio causes the heart rate to accelerate/pump where as the goal is just the opposite of our training! Rou Jing, Stillness, etc.. Any true practitioner of these sort of arts work on slowing down the heart rate and relaxing the mind!
Agree or disagree?
I am sure the cardio topic is not going to sit well with some but first we need to define what we actually are doing! Agree or disagree?


Regards,

Hi Jim!

I both agree and disagree! :) I think training cardio is important, but that one shouldn't be counting on their WCK sessions to do it! Part of cardio fitness is having a good "cardiac reserve" function. By conditioning the heart with cardio exercise, the pulse will be lower at rest because the heart is stronger and pumping more efficiently. Therefore it does not need to beat as much. The more conditioned the heart is, more effort is needed to raise the heart rate. WCK is indeed a method that emphasizes relaxation and efficient movement. So it shouldn't be bumping the heart rate up into a cardio training range unless you are doing some pretty heavy sparring or drilling. So the cardio training should be done independently of and outside of the WCK work-out. But the "stillness" factor of WCK will be enhanced by the cardio training because the heart will be stronger and you are much less likely to "bump" the heart rate and compromise you "stillness" and "softness" as you do your WCK. Even a fight that lasts only seconds can really throw the heart rate up due to a big shot of adrenaline. Having a good cardiac reserve from cardio training means that it won't shoot up as high or be as disruptive. So IMHO, good cardiac conditioning can only enhance the "Rou Jing" aspect of our WCK. But WCK training alone will not lead to good cardiac conditioning.

Keith

[Jim Roselando]

Hey guys!


Quickly as I am heading out of town!


By conditioning the heart with cardio exercise, the pulse will be lower at rest because the heart is stronger and pumping more efficiently.

This is 100% accurate and no denying its benefits but is it just as good for you when you are young as when you get older? Some studies say it isn't.


Even a fight that lasts only seconds can really throw the heart rate up due to a big shot of adrenaline.

Booom! This is exactly what we want to avoid. This is what will make the difference.


Gotta run!

Will talk more on Monday!


Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Some free time!

The original point of the thread was to discuss what our goals were and compare it to other types of arts that have a different type of goal. Each has their own place and way. Also, what you need to put into it to get the type of results your need or for a fair comparison to another method.

There are arts that require multiple round fighting and certianly intense cardio is a requirement. Sure! Cardio strengthens and then during the down period alows it to function at a more productive rate. Yet. There is a level of fitness that one need to maintain with that certain fighting method.

Then there are the arts that do not require that. They utilize the strength of the art in a different way that it gives your thru its sets, training, structure, breathing, etc.. Those are the arts that typically have Rou & Stillness as core component. Keep in mind many of those things are also found in the other arts but just a different approach with certain aspects make the difference! This is a different type of approach that functions more on holistic training where the Kung Fu works the body in harmony by externally training the tendons/sinews etc. and internally training the breath. Nothing better but different.

I think Dave C makes and excellent point:

if your wing chun is dependent on a high state of cardio then you are not doing Yip Man wing chun.
Dave c


But I would remove Yip Man's name and replace it with Rou Jing/stillness based arts. Is Wing Chun a Rou/Stillness based art? Now thats another debate! :-) I would be curious to here some opinions from the Leung Sheung/Ken Chung group on this topic.


Hey! Gotta run!

Have a good weekend!


:)

[Jim Roselando]

Next week I will post some info. on this topic.

:p

[anerlich]

The original point of the thread was to discuss what our goals were and compare it to other types of arts that have a different type of goal.

You seem to be postulating that as Wing Chun practitioners, we have or should have some sort of sert of collective goals, which you seem to think were predefined, perhaps by a set of people who died a long time ago.

I though point of the thread was to discuss our individual goals. It should be apparent to you by now that there is a broad spectrum of goals in WC, and, thankfully, a fair absence of groupthink.

Also, there is plenty of sharing of some of our goals with those of other arts. WC isn't perhaps quite as special or unique as some think it to be.


This is 100% accurate and no denying its benefits but is it just as good for you when you are young as when you get older? Some studies say it isn't.

And others say it does. Look hard enough, you'll find studies to support any viewpoint. I'll take Dr Keith's opinion on this one, thanks.

[Matrix]

This is 100% accurate and no denying its benefits but is it just as good for you when you are young as when you get older? Some studies say it isn't. Jim,

I can't sight any studies, but my personal experience says that training cardio is even more important as you get older. You may need to make some adjustments for age, for example recovery times can be longer, but overall fitness pays higher dividends in the later stages of the game of life, IMO.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


You seem to be postulating that as Wing Chun practitioners, we have or should have some sort of sert of collective goals, which you seem to think were predefined, perhaps by a set of people who died a long time ago.

Rou Jing/Stillness art or not? If we are then some stuff is comes along with it. If you believe we do not fall into that category then thats a different story.

I though point of the thread was to discuss our individual goals. It should be apparent to you by now that there is a broad spectrum of goals in WC, and, thankfully, a fair absence of groupthink.

Yes! Our goals and what it is need to make a fair comparison. What it takes for each art to function . Too much using of the UFC type stuff as the standard level of a So-Called good fighter which is funny IMHO. I listed out some of what most need to function at that level and the time it takes to be a pro and fight at that level.

Yes! their is a broad spectrum of goals in all activities of life. With that in mind it we must make fair judgement when making comparison wouldn't you say? Certainly the guy who has 4-5 hours a week for training will not be a Rickson.

Also, there is plenty of sharing of some of our goals with those of other arts. WC isn't perhaps quite as special or unique as some think it to be.

No doubt. Lots of stuff carry over and nothing is unique. We have to come from somewhere and we have to fall into some sort of category in Martial Art. All stuff will have their own way or flavor but the human body gets trained on only a limited ways in Martial Art. Rou Jing would be soft and not require cardio to function during combat.

And others say it does. Look hard enough, you'll find studies to support any viewpoint. I'll take Dr Keith's opinion on this one, thanks.

Fair enough! Most doctors have similar thoughts as Keith. My training partner is a doctor. We have discussed this in length. He also feels there is nothing wrong with cardio as it strengthens and allows to function better but since he is also a Chi Kung practitioner he understands there is a difference with Rou Jing based arts. When we are young we do all sorts of cardio stuff and strengthen. That 45 minute pump up the heart rate is great and the heart gets stronger. Now, take the person who is getting a bit older. Going to the gym 2-3 days per week and shocking your internal system/heart may not be as easy on your system as it was when you were younger. Its the not so frequent stress like this that sometimes causes problems.

I will post some stuff below from one of China's top fighter (Wang Xiang Zhai) and promoters of holistic health. Here is a man who fought anyone who wanted to walk thru his doors. So, his skill was not for show but for reality. I think he give some important thoughts!


See ya,

[Jim Roselando]

Basic training in daily life, in order to gain results from training all the time, while walking, standing, sitting,and reclining, one must start from the training of Jam Jong.

***"Note the similar idea as WCK SLT"***

Arange the posture of the whole body properly, keep the body upright, have no thoughts, strengthen the nerves in "stillness", adjust the breath, warm up and nurish the muscles, let every cell activate naturally. The strength comes from "inside" and reaches the the outside smoothly in the whole body. Thus, one does not train the bones and the muscles, yet they get trained by themselves, one does not nourish the nerves but they get nourished by themselves, one should especially experience and opbserve their barely perceptible movement and activity. When on has done it for long enough time, one will know that standing brings many inexhaustible wonders. One who want to achive wonders in his boxing skills, should first dedicate his time to Jam Jong.

More info.:

Thje movements of an ordinary person cannot have strength without constant unilateral tension that disturbs the blood circulation. Every kind of strength based on constant unilateral tension is stiff and inharmonious, and besides that, harmful to health! Having strength without constant unilateral tension is namely having strength without using strength, and when using it, one gains strength. That is what the natural instinctive strength is like.

More info..

As for the conservative people who cannot diferentiate between right and wrong, I have not choice but to let them have their own way. Even if one can understand, it is still not easy to put it into practice, and it is even more difficult for those who cannot differentiate between right or wrong at all. However, the Ordinary Boxers still take the exercising of the body as the Catchword and stop talking about combat. Watching that, one can also know that the way of combat, compared to health preservation, is a very trifling thing. The way of health preservation relies on concentrating one's spirit and nourishing one's nature. The mind becomes empty and unified; that is called the art of one's Body & Mind, Life & Nature. With this movement and that posturem springing forward and jumping backward, it is really difficult to even dream about entering the gate of health preservation. In fact, health preservation is simple and easy. True human nature loves naturalness and unrestricted free movement, the whole offshoot of the natural instincts ar the basic of that. Every morning in the fresh air, without any method, just let the joints of the whole body be slightly bent, consider the sky, move slowly and freely, experience and observe the intestinal Chi and the flow of blood. At the same time, intuitively percieve the external void and nimble opposing strength. This is called the spirit resembles as if it was swimming. The spirit and the body are comfortable and natural, not only free and unrestricted, but also gradually realising the echo of nature. After a long time of training, the instincts unveil and the rays of the spirit will shine, one will have gained the basis of combat without having sought them. If one always sticks to mechanical moevements, plays around with a staff and performs with a spear seaking beauty, taking that as the glory of being good in martial arts, then one does not know that if a man of insights sees that, he will feel sick for ten days. That is terrible, such a person cannot comprehend Boxing For Life!

[Jim Roselando]

Hey guys,


Some more stuff for ya!


After a good workout do you typically feel refreshed for a bit and then tired or do you just feel refreshed to the point your work out energized you?

I used to do loads of cardio stuff when I was doing BJJ. BJJ is an awesome work out. I would take Glutamine to speed up the process of recovery as the hard work out burns certain things in your body. With that in mind, my good friend and I were talking about this last night and here is his POV:



I've done a bit of study of this a few years back from a western POV
and Eastern.

Western exercise wears the body down, also, western Doc's are turning away
from the 'No pain, no gain' of the 80's to the low impact cardio as
superior. The reason being is that they found out that it is the hormones
that extend life and by excessive hard exercise depletes these whereas low
impact aerobic and anaroebic doesn't. Also, eastern views caught this 3000
years ago in the Yellow Emperor's internal classic. A basic overview of this
is that by opening the channels and breathing with the diaphragm (abdominal
breathing - as in hei gung / qigong) we rest and exercise at the same time
giving a feeling of exhiliration at the end rather than a worn out feeling.

Ironically, fast exercise and especially at the start burns good fuel like
sugar of the body and 'fires the glands' (hormones) and depletes them -
ironically then the body then craves sugar and most eat fast fixes of bad
carbs and ironically become a slave to yo yo weight problems and dieting -
low impact and good diet lead to permanent loss of weight and health. The
breathing performed at low impact is superior as the lungs work at optimun
rate due to the 'relaxed' nature of the body and ironically gain better
endurance and breath control - see the similarity to qigong here!!!! For
years I fought weight and trained 'hard' and couldn't understand why - bad
exercise leads to bad eating cravings etc, now I know after 20 years my
mistake!!!!

Anyway, the golden rules are 'don't fire the glands' and 'don't raise the
heartbeat too much'.


Any thoughts Kieth?

[anerlich]

After a good workout do you typically feel refreshed for a bit and then tired or do you just feel refreshed to the point your work out energized you?

False dichotomy. I usually feel tired first, but later refreshed. Working out certainly helps me sleep soundly.

My metabolism must be less sensitive than yours. Helio's 92 and recently participated in teaching on the latest BJJ cruise from Cali with Rorion, Kira, Ryron et al. Hows Wang Xiang Zhai doing these days?


I used to do loads of cardio stuff when I was doing BJJ. BJJ is an awesome work out. I would take Glutamine to speed up the process of recovery as the hard work out burns certain things in your body.

Both BJJ and WC are about conditioning, but BJJ, like WC, is about intelligent use of technique first and foremost.

You should read up on the life of Carlos Gracie snr., he was quite a spiritual man in later life and developed a complex system of diet and health management, arguably equal to that of any WC ancestor or modern practitioner. He and Helio would seem to be at least as qualified on related subjects, and as successful fighters, as Wang Xiang Zhai.

BJJ is no straw man, so stop and reverse on that track right now if you want a credible discussion.


With that in mind, my good friend and I were talking about this last night and here is his POV:

And your "good friend"'s qualifications are... ?



I've done a bit of study of this a few years back from a western POV
and Eastern.

Haven't we all ... *yawn* I've got a fairly lengthy set of notes in my "TCM Info" link in my .sig, FWIW. I'm not a nobel laureate, but I've been around the block.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


False dichotomy.

Not IMO. Its a pretty straight forward question regarding this topic.

I usually feel tired first, but later refreshed. Working out certainly helps me sleep soundly.

Ok. Thats what I thought. Its the same for all on that sort of training regime. A depletion before all the juices build back. Nothing wrong with that as it is the norm for that sort of training. Its just the opposite for Rou Jing.

My metabolism must be less sensitive than yours. Helio's 92 and recently participated in teaching on the latest BJJ cruise from Cali with Rorion, Kira, Ryron et al. Hows Wang Xiang Zhai doing these days?

Wang Xiang Zhai died years ago. I think he was closer to Yip Man's age. Good for Helio! He's definetely a great martial artist. Trained many greats! Funny but most of the people I have spoken with years ago when I did BJJ told me his physical health is not so good. His joints & body are in pain. Actually, this is the case for most Jiu Jitsu people. The art really takes a toll on the body. But! Its good to hear he is doing well!


Both BJJ and WC are about conditioning, but BJJ, like WC, is about intelligent use of technique first and foremost.

You are correct. I totally agree with you but the conditioning IMO is just different. If you believe WC is Rou Jing. If not, then I am sure they are similar in that way also for you.

You should read up on the life of Carlos Gracie snr., he was quite a spiritual man in later life and developed a complex system of diet and health management, arguably equal to that of any WC ancestor or modern practitioner. He and Helio would seem to be at least as qualified on related subjects, and as successful fighters, as Wang Xiang Zhai.

Will check it out! They are great martialists and it will be good to read there thoughts!

BJJ is no straw man, so stop and reverse on that track right now if you want a credible discussion.

My discussion is about Cardio and Rou Jing at this point in the thread. I am not talking about anything else! Arts that are cardio based versus arts that are Rou Jing based. Plus! I happen to love BJJ. I think they are the WCK of the Ground! Modern art, Softer version compared to its ancestors, Grappling is like Chi Sao on the ground!

And your "good friend"'s qualifications are... ?

Please tell me if there was something he wrote that was wrong or not?

Western exercise wears the body down, also, western Doc's are turning away
from the 'No pain, no gain' of the 80's to the low impact cardio as
superior. The reason being is that they found out that it is the hormones
that extend life and by excessive hard exercise depletes these whereas low
impact aerobic and anaroebic doesn't. Also, eastern views caught this 3000
years ago in the Yellow Emperor's internal classic. A basic overview of this
is that by opening the channels and breathing with the diaphragm (abdominal
breathing - as in hei gung / qigong) we rest and exercise at the same time
giving a feeling of exhiliration at the end rather than a worn out feeling.

Ironically, fast exercise and especially at the start burns good fuel like
sugar of the body and 'fires the glands' (hormones) and depletes them -
ironically then the body then craves sugar and most eat fast fixes of bad
carbs and ironically become a slave to yo yo weight problems and dieting -
low impact and good diet lead to permanent loss of weight and health. The
breathing performed at low impact is superior as the lungs work at optimun
rate due to the 'relaxed' nature of the body and ironically gain better
endurance and breath control - see the similarity to qigong here!!!! For
years I fought weight and trained 'hard' and couldn't understand why - bad
exercise leads to bad eating cravings etc, now I know after 20 years my
mistake!!!!

Anyway, the golden rules are 'don't fire the glands' and 'don't raise the
heartbeat too much'.


Haven't we all ... *yawn* I've got a fairly lengthy set of notes in my "TCM Info" link in my .sig, FWIW. I'm not a nobel laureate, but I've been around the block.

Cool. Please share some of your research and we can compare. I think by now you know my feelings.

[anerlich]

Actually, this is the case for most Jiu Jitsu people.

LOL, sure, just like most WC practitioners have bad knees. And of course at this point of the thread you are only talking about Rou Jing and cardio :p


My discussion is about Cardio and Rou Jing at this point in the thread. I am not talking about anything else!

You were talking about BJJ! Otherwise I wouldn't have responded that way!


Plus! I happen to love BJJ. I think they are the WCK of the Ground! Modern art, Softer version compared to its ancestors, Grappling is like Chi Sao on the ground!

And proper BJJ, which you weren't talking about, should be pretty close to what you so far have defined a Rou Jing art to be.


Please tell me if there was something he wrote that was wrong or not?

I guess he's another guy with an opinion, just like you and me, his opinions worth no more and no less. You gave me the expectation that you thought his opinion was worth something more, and I asked "how so exactly"?


For years I fought weight and trained 'hard' and couldn't understand why - bad
exercise leads to bad eating cravings etc, now I know after 20 years my
mistake!!!!

Like I said, your metabolism must be different from mine. I've been around the same weight (77kg) and low body fat for the last 20 years. I have a six pack at age 50. I do regular cardio, as well other exercise modalities I think you'd be less horrified by. I've never had such cravings. Maybe it's not the program, or not just the program?


Cool. Please share some of your research and we can compare.

You couldn't find the link in my .sig? It took me more than a few days of hard work to put that together from handwritten notes I took in the 80's. And BTW, I have read the Yellow Emperor's classic, almost ad nauseam, when I gave a lot more credence to TCM than I do now.

[KPM]

Hey Jim!

I've done a bit of study of this a few years back from a western POV
and Eastern.

---I haven't looked into this comparison specifically, so my comments will just be drawing on my general fund of knowledge and background.

Western exercise wears the body down,

---Isn't exercise just exercise? How can it have an ethnicity?

also, western Doc's are turning away from the 'No pain, no gain' of the 80's to the low impact cardio as superior.

---This is true. But the main reason is that it was found that the "high impact" stuff was hard on the joints. That's why everyone does "low impact" aerobics now. They didn't change the intensity of the exercise, only the intensity of the impact on the joints and rest of the body.

The reason being is that they found out that it is the hormones
that extend life and by excessive hard exercise depletes these whereas low
impact aerobic and anaroebic doesn't.

---I'd like to see exactly what that study was referring too. Its too easy to make generalizations based on studies that were never intended by the original authors. But like most things, its all relative. How do you define "excessive hard exercise"? Its true that cardio conditioning can have diminishing returns at some point. You don't have to have a resting heart rate of 40 and be able to compete in the Tour de France to be healthy. Even patients that have had heart attacks go through a "cardiac rehab" program that includes progressive cardio conditioning.

A basic overview of this
is that by opening the channels and breathing with the diaphragm (abdominal
breathing - as in hei gung / qigong) we rest and exercise at the same time
giving a feeling of exhiliration at the end rather than a worn out feeling.

---Lots of western athletes have learned to be "abdominal breathers" as well.

Ironically, fast exercise and especially at the start burns good fuel like
sugar of the body and 'fires the glands' (hormones) and depletes them -
ironically then the body then craves sugar and most eat fast fixes of bad
carbs and ironically become a slave to yo yo weight problems and dieting -

---Is that due to the exercise program, or to the person's poor eating habits? In general, exercise physiology teaches that there is a progression in how the body uses stored fuel. You begin by using anaerobic metabolism and burning the readily available fuel...sugars...only after a certain point in exercise duration and intensity do you begin to use aerobic metabolism and begin to burn other fuel sources like fat.

low impact and good diet lead to permanent loss of weight and health. The
breathing performed at low impact is superior as the lungs work at optimun
rate due to the 'relaxed' nature of the body and ironically gain better
endurance and breath control - see the similarity to qigong here!!!!

---Again, from a western standpoint the "low impact" is still cardio conditioning. "Low impact" does not necessarily mean "low intensity." From a physiology point of view, unless you are reaching a "training range" of heart rate and intensity you will not be getting a cardio conditioning or fat burning (weight loss) benefit. Since physiology knows no ethnicity...........

For years I fought weight and trained 'hard' and couldn't understand why - bad
exercise leads to bad eating cravings etc, now I know after 20 years my
mistake!!!!

---Bad eating habits, regardless of what kind of exercise you are doing, makes it hard to control ones weight. I would be willing to bet diet was a bigger factor for your friend than the type of exercise he was doing.

Anyway, the golden rules are 'don't fire the glands' and 'don't raise the
heartbeat too much'.

---I'm not sure what "don't fire the glands" means, but "don't raise the heartbeat too much" is a pretty good rule. Again, its all relative. That's why good cardio conditioning includes training that follows a percentage of the "target heart rate"...which is adjusted for age.

---Now don't get me wrong. I still agree with the idea that when doing WCK one shouldn't be jumping around and making it an intense athletic activity. It should stay calm and relaxed. But I still think that good cardio conditioning can only enhance one's ability to stay relaxed, not get out of breath, and not bump the heart rate way up when doing your WCK. A basic level of cardio conditioning (not taken to excess) can only enhance your health and longevity.

Keith

[Jim Roselando]

A-lich,


LOL, sure, just like most WC practitioners have bad knees.

Yup! That should tell you something!

You were talking about BJJ! Otherwise I wouldn't have responded that way!

Cardio related arts and since BJJ is one of them then sure I included them. The same applies for M Thai and other cardio related arts.

And proper BJJ, which you weren't talking about, should be pretty close to what you so far have defined a Rou Jing art to be.

Ok! So, why not take two months off from your regular cardio training and then get on the matt and see if that sort of training is not essential to that art functioning or not.


I guess he's another guy with an opinion, just like you and me, his opinions worth no more and no less. You gave me the expectation that you thought his opinion was worth something more, and I asked "how so exactly"?

I feel its pretty straight forward info as is Wang;s when it comes to this debate.

Quote:
For years I fought weight and trained 'hard' and couldn't understand why - bad
exercise leads to bad eating cravings etc, now I know after 20 years my
mistake!!!!



Like I said, your metabolism must be different from mine. I've been around the same weight (77kg) and low body fat for the last 20 years. I have a six pack at age 50. I do regular cardio, as well other exercise modalities I think you'd be less horrified by. I've never had such cravings. Maybe it's not the program, or not just the program?

Not me my man! I am only 5' 5" tall and an average weight of 140! That was him talking! :-) I am just a little guy!


You couldn't find the link in my .sig? It took me more than a few days of hard work to put that together from handwritten notes I took in the 80's. And BTW, I have read the Yellow Emperor's classic, almost ad nauseam, when I gave a lot more credence to TCM than I do now.

Okeydokey. Hey! Gotta run! Working out of town and only have time for one more reply!


Thanks for the chat!

[Jim Roselando]

Kieth,


---I haven't looked into this comparison specifically, so my comments will just be drawing on my general fund of knowledge and background.

No problem.

---Isn't exercise just exercise? How can it have an ethnicity?

Common stuff for common comparison. Chi Gung type stuff versus other type stuff. Certainly Chi Gung type stuff is not as common in the west where as you can go to most parks in China and see hundreds of people in the a.m. practicing.

---This is true. But the main reason is that it was found that the "high impact" stuff was hard on the joints. That's why everyone does "low impact" aerobics now. They didn't change the intensity of the exercise, only the intensity of the impact on the joints and rest of the body.

Ok. What type of impact would you consider UFC fighting to be? What type of impact would you consider WC fighting to be?

---I'd like to see exactly what that study was referring too. Its too easy to make generalizations based on studies that were never intended by the original authors. But like most things, its all relative. How do you define "excessive hard exercise"? Its true that cardio conditioning can have diminishing returns at some point. You don't have to have a resting heart rate of 40 and be able to compete in the Tour de France to be healthy. Even patients that have had heart attacks go through a "cardiac rehab" program that includes progressive cardio conditioning.

E-mail Rob!

---Lots of western athletes have learned to be "abdominal breathers" as well.

I think we know why! hehehe

---Is that due to the exercise program, or to the person's poor eating habits? In general, exercise physiology teaches that there is a progression in how the body uses stored fuel. You begin by using anaerobic metabolism and burning the readily available fuel...sugars...only after a certain point in exercise duration and intensity do you begin to use aerobic metabolism and begin to burn other fuel sources like fat.

Ok. Rou Jing training doesn't burn it nurishes! Hence the common name: Yang Sheng! Life Nurishing.

---Again, from a western standpoint the "low impact" is still cardio conditioning. "Low impact" does not necessarily mean "low intensity." From a physiology point of view, unless you are reaching a "training range" of heart rate and intensity you will not be getting a cardio conditioning or fat burning (weight loss) benefit. Since physiology knows no ethnicity...........

What type of impact do you consider Muay Thai and what type of impact do you consider Yi Chuan?

---I'm not sure what "don't fire the glands" means, but "don't raise the heartbeat too much" is a pretty good rule. Again, its all relative. That's why good cardio conditioning includes training that follows a percentage of the "target heart rate"...which is adjusted for age.

True. Do you feel a true Rou Jing art needs Cardio to function? Do you consider WCK a Rou Jing art? Do we externally train the tendons/sinews etc and internally train the breath. Its a holistic platform IMO. Whats your thoughts on Wang Xiang Zhai's info that I posted?

---Now don't get me wrong. I still agree with the idea that when doing WCK one shouldn't be jumping around and making it an intense athletic activity. It should stay calm and relaxed.

Yup.

But I still think that good cardio conditioning can only enhance one's ability to stay relaxed, not get out of breath, and not bump the heart rate way up when doing your WCK. A basic level of cardio conditioning (not taken to excess) can only enhance your health and longevity.

No arguments on that but if you are doing a holistic art then do you feel its needed?

Nobody can argue of its benefits if trained right but it just seems that without it many are not getting the nurishment for the body (and need it to maketheir art function) that the art IMO should be giving them.

If! Of course its a Rou Jing art. That really is the big question!


Guys!

Off to work out of town again! Uggggggggg!



See ya,

[anerlich]

Yup! That should tell you something!

Yup! It tells me that too many people make up stuff, or imply statistical bases from anecdotes, about other arts in attempts to support their arguments.


Ok! So, why not take two months off from your regular cardio training and then get on the matt and see if that sort of training is not essential to that art functioning or not.

I did that last year after ankle and knee injuries (ankle was a reclessly applied heel hook, knee had nothing to do with BJJ or WC) stopped me from doing my regular cardio. My ability to handle younger fitter less skilled guys, and to keep purple belts and advanced blues off of me, decreased sharply. Same with my standup training, including WC. Back on the Tabata intervals and sprints, and the iron, suddenly I'm handling the same guys the way I used to.

Cardio isn't essential, but it sure helps. Training isn't just about skill development, it is also about the tempering and transformation of the athlete. If skill is equivalent, differentials in endurance and/or strength will usually tip the balance.

If you're saying an art is only Rou Jing if you can vanquish stronger resisting opponents without a reserve of cardio or elevating your heart rate, I say there's no such art on the planet, or in the universe, and if it's worked that way for you you need to find some tougher training partners.


What type of impact would you consider WC fighting to be?

I've got bruises, black eyes, sprains and cracked ribs from both types of training. Can't see the distinction myself, other than "UFC fighters" can handle themselves in the clinch and on the ground, and, unlike "WC fighters" they can with skill subdue opponents or render them unconscious without having to inflict trauma on them.


Not me my man! I am only 5' 5" tall and an average weight of 140! That was him talking! :-) I am just a little guy!

So his experience is not applicable to you either. I have to say I haven't seen too many famous long-distance runners who carry many extra pounds, or who ballooned out after retiring from athletics, either.

The Xingyi instructor I discussed earlier, who had formal acupuncture, Xingyi/Bagua and Taiji qualifications from HK and Taiwan, told me that "slow" and "soft" exercise like taiji and qigong performed exclusively has inherent dangers. It allegedly increases the venous circulation, i.e. the flow of blood back to the heart. According to him, too much of this can lead to pooling of blood in the extremities, leading to increased risk of blood clots, embolisms, etc. and it must be balanced with more vigorous exercise to flush and clear the system.

Xingyi, which is neither a slow or soft system, was allegedly much more precise and powerful than taiji for balancing the organ energies in the system.

Then again, this guy was a liar and a manipulator, and the benefits or otherwise of TCM remain a topic of hot debate. My own experiences with acupuncture, etc. to treat various ailments have been quite disappointing and a waste of time, though my diploma in oriental massage proved an interesting ice breaker and social lubricant with women in my younger days, and my wife still likes it. But other than that...

[KPM]

Hey Jim!

---Isn't exercise just exercise? How can it have an ethnicity?
Common stuff for common comparison. Chi Gung type stuff versus other type stuff. Certainly Chi Gung type stuff is not as common in the west where as you can go to most parks in China and see hundreds of people in the a.m. practicing.

---OK. Just doesn't seem like a good classification for generalizing things to me. You have plenty of "eastern" exercise in the form of Tae Kwon Do, Shaolin Kung Fu, Modern Wu Shu, etc that is just as athletic and intense as any "western" exercise.


Ok. What type of impact would you consider UFC fighting to be? What type of impact would you consider WC fighting to be?

---I think you're mixing apples and oranges here. We started out talking about cardio conditioning and you brought up high impact vs. low impact programs. I noted that "low impact" referred to less impact on the joints....its not "bouncing" and "jumping around" as much as high impact. And that it doesn't necessarily imply less intensity, just less impact on the ground. What does that have to do with martial arts?


E-mail Rob!

---You may have to tell me off-line about this one! Did Rob have a bad experience?

Ok. Rou Jing training doesn't burn it nurishes! Hence the common name: Yang Sheng! Life Nurishing.

---Ok. But does it build up and condition at the same time? Maybe both approaches to training are warranted? It would be interesting to see a study of elderly chinese that have spent decades doing their Tai Chi in the park and nothing else. I'd like to know their blood pressure, cholesterol levels, lipid levels, etc as compared to an age matched group from the west that spent time going to the pool or doing an aerobic walking program instead. Then we could compare apples to apples. :)


What type of impact do you consider Muay Thai and what type of impact do you consider Yi Chuan?

---Again, comparing apples to oranges. The terms "low impact" and "high impact" as applied to cardio conditioning programs do not carry over well to make good comparisons between martial arts.

True. Do you feel a true Rou Jing art needs Cardio to function?

---Some cardio? Yes. Peak cardio like required for more "athletic" styles? No. Do you think that someone that gets out of breath just going up one flight of stairs is going to be able to do a "true Rou Jing art" with peak performance?

Do you consider WCK a Rou Jing art?

---Depends on who is doing it! :D The way I want to do it and develop it...yes!

Do we externally train the tendons/sinews etc and internally train the breath. Its a holistic platform IMO. Whats your thoughts on Wang Xiang Zhai's info that I posted?

---Its good stuff! But we have to keep in mind that what is passed down as lore in martial arts circles doesn't always jive well with what we know of established physiology. So while I can see taking it to heart and using what he says as a guideline, I wouldn't go throwing out what I know of anatomy and physiology. :)


No arguments on that but if you are doing a holistic art then do you feel its needed?

---If you are truly doing a holistic art, wouldn't it already be included?

Nobody can argue of its benefits if trained right but it just seems that without it many are not getting the nurishment for the body (and need it to maketheir art function) that the art IMO should be giving them.

---This may very well be true!


Keith