Boston 4/23-4/24 The 12 Animals of Liu Ho Pa Fa

[cvp72]

The 12 Animals of Liu Ho Pa Fa
with GM Wai Lun Choi
April 23-24, 2005

Saturday 9am-1pm
Sunday 9am-1pm

McElroy Conference Room, 2nd floor
Boston College


http://www.wailunchoi.com/vids/index.html

http://www.liuhopafa.com
(info about liu ho pa fa)

Cost: $150 for 2 days, $75 for 1 day.


Feel free to PM or email me for more info.

[Buddy]

Where is it being held?

[cvp72]

my man in Amsterdam (sic) is working on that.....

the cost will be $150 for two days, $75 for one day and most likely it will be near Harvard.

More videos will be added in the next two weeks.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

so that's a dialectical variation for 6 harmony mantis?

whoever goes say hello to Lester (my Little Brother) Leung and Yon Lee. they ought to be nearby.

[Three Harmonies]

To the best of my limited knowledge their is no connection between Liuhe Tanglang and LiuheBafa outside the nomenclature.
Six Harmonies is romanized Liuhe.

Jake :D

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

since you seem to have an inside angle on the differences...would you care to explain the diff btwn tl and bf? i thought they were strikingly similar, with the exception of the hook claw grasshopper techniques overlain on the ba fa movements :confused: .

[Three Harmonies]

To be honest I know little about LHBF. The liuhe aspect is in reference to the three internal harmonies and the three external harmonies (something common in ALL CMA). Now I guess in that regard they are similar. Outside of that there is no similarity. LHBF is a combo of Xing Yi / Taiji / Bagua. Has one form that is hours long (JK but it is long). To the best of my knowledge (limited of course) LHBF does not share any common Lilun (theory) with LH Tanglang.
In LH tanglang it is rare to see the Mantis "hook." For instance in the first form Die Yi Tzang Hua, not a single hook. To be honest if you looked at LH Tanglang and did not know what it is, you would never guess it is Mantis at all.
I am not familiar with what the Bafa (eight methods) are in reference too in LHBF. We do not have those in Mantis. Someone here on this board surely plays LHBF though.

Cheers
Jake :D

[cvp72]

Originally, Liu Ho Pa Fa was called Water Boxing, symbolizing water's ability to be both still and moving at the same time - like the ocean or a great river. Practitioners learn to combine the softness of water with the power of the wave - limitless, endless, never ceasing and never broken.

Later, the water reference was considered too difficult to be understood, so the name was changed to Liu Ho Pa Fa to express more directly the idea begind the training and make the intention of the style clearer.

See this link for more info on the 6 Harmonies and 8 Methods

http://trinity.psnw.com/~dlmurray/6h8m1.html

The purpose of the animal forms is to train the inside and outside - the mind and the "chi" inside, the coiling power outside. However, the animal forms themselves have real practical fighting purpose and applications.

[Three Harmonies]

cvp72
Thanks. Can you verify my assumption that Liuhe Tanglang has nothing to do with LHBF?
Cheers
Jake :D

[cvp72]

jake,

i don't know much about preying mantis, but the chineses love 6 harmonies as much as they love 7 stars :P

[Three Harmonies]

Good point! Maybe it has 108 moves in it, and we should practice 10000 times more!

Jake :D

[cvp72]

Good point! Maybe it has 108 moves in it, and we should practice 10000 times more!

Jake :D

close....the main form has over 700+ techniques!!! in a simplistic way, it's kinda a way of stringing all the animal forms together. :)

personally, my favorite is the LiuHungBaSai form (Mother and 8 Sons Linking Palm). short and sweet with alot of oomphs for combat.

here is a sample attachment of a "modified" LHBS form...

LiuHungBaSai page 1 (http://mail.domain900.net/~chuong_pham/3.jpg)

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

I know of one other 'water' type form but its not in the Lie Hue tradition, i don't think.

I think the full name is Waves In Motion Standing In A Star Formation, often abbreviated to Wave Standing form, or just Wave Form. It's a rather legthy creature but i'm not sure exactly how many manuevers or 8-pack sections are in it.

those of you in boston have probably seen him.

[fiercest tiger]

LHBF was created from manuscripts found in a cave at Wah Shan, it doesnt look or follow anything like Tong Long of any branch be it southern or northern.

My Sifu is teaching me Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jurng which is 1000 years older or so then LHBF if im correct. LHBF is purely internal and uses rise and fall movements like water. It links the whole body in unision and is very powerful! My Sifu also is a Master in LHBF for now 50 yrs from Grandmaster Lo chi wan hongkong. He is now retired and myself and my wife are his last desciples to learn both LHBF and Wun Yuen kung. Traditionally you must learn LHBF first and Wun Yuen last due to its intricate moves and motion. He believes the Wun Yuen Kung is far superior although has some similarties in ways. The 12 animals forms are taken out as sections to learn from the actual form so i believe!

www.wunyuen.com

FT

[cvp72]

do u think anyone would learn style XYZ if it didn't have some kind of mythical story attached to how the style was found and developed? for example, i am joe schmoe and i have just developed the latest and greatest martial art style....

is a color television better than a black and white television? if it is....could it possibly have came before the black and white television? yeah ok...Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jurng is 1000 year older. sure sure.

you are right about the 12 animals, but does your system have the 12 animals? if no, why not? :P

[fiercest tiger]

Because it doesnt follow animal shapes, Thats why!

It follows the energy of the universe, (primordial energy), it does use Mystical creatures names on some moves but no shapes or noises like in some animal arts.

I saw Joe shmoes kung fu and it was good....:)

As for Ying Yee it doesnt tickle my fancy and isnt internal enough for me, i think it has alot of tension actually!

What sytle you do CP30?

FT

[cvp72]

Because it doesnt follow animal shapes, Thats why!

FT

i was asking about your taoist-laced version of lhbf...

[fiercest tiger]

LHBF has 1 form only and it contains the animals within. Wun Yuen is about the creation of the universe and life.....lifes first breath!

Is that what u are asking?

[Hau Tien]

I may be mistaken, but I believe the animal forms were added to LBF long after the main form. For instance, my old Sifu only taught the main form (and the combat applications), as it was taught to him by his teacher (Kwing Fai Kung of Kowloon). When I asked why, he said it was because the 12 animal forms were added far more recently and were not a part of what he was taught.

I've seen many different "flavors" of LHBF... some which bordered on the absurd in terms of combat application, and others, while slightly different from what I was taught (like Wai Lun Choi's) definitely have good combat application.

[cvp72]

Hau Tien: You are correct about the 12 Animals (at least according to my conversations with Master Choi). He explained that the main form was too "advanced" so it was easier to use the 12 Animals in order to build up students' foundational skills. The brief length of the animal forms enable the student to focus in on different aspects of the main form while the 2-man animal forms train flow/sensitivity.

Fiercest Tiger: Was trying to discern as to what's the difference between "Taoist" LHBF and non-Taoist LHBF. Great taste? Or less filling? :P

[Soykuil]

Could you tell me what is the non daoist LHBF and what it consists of. is it shaolin??

thanks

[Soykuil]

Oh yes, and could anyone tell me what are the 12 pillars of LHBF are. i bought the book by paul dillon and was curious as to what they refer to. are they the 12 animals?

[cvp72]

words without experiences = prose
words + experiences = interpretations.
words with CORRECT experiences = understanding

that's why it's almost impossible to learn anything without a qualified instructor.

[Soykuil]

:confused: LOL.... you are funny man.
so much for serious talk.

hey mate. i asked you a simple question only. if you don't know it then thats fine just say so. it is cool. no need to be rude.

[cvp72]

sorry...no rudeness intended. just trying to tell you that your time and money is better spent practicing than getting that 5-word poem book by Dillon. :P

[Soykuil]

thats cool man. no offence taken.
i do train in LHBF and the more info i get the more i understand.
my sifu has a habit of saying just practice, the rest is all BS...lol

is there any reason why you say that about the book?

thanks.

[Soykuil]

Also,
do you start the form straight into "stop the carriage"? Or do have a few beginning moves called "Hai Sik"?

thanks

[cvp72]

thats cool man. no offence taken.
i do train in LHBF and the more info i get the more i understand.
my sifu has a habit of saying just practice, the rest is all BS...lol

is there any reason why you say that about the book?

thanks.

The book has alot of "words" in it. Look at my post again and you will see what I mean.

words without experiences = prose
words + experiences = interpretations
words with CORRECT experiences = understanding

The more your mind "understand"....the more your body is outta synch with your mind. That's why the key is "practice", ie a way for achieving mind and body togetherness.

[Soykuil]

Interesting answer, thanks for that.

Can i ask you, what are the different types of LHBF? you mention daoist or other origins. what are some of the others?

[cvp72]

Interesting answer, thanks for that.
Can i ask you, what are the different types of LHBF? you mention daoist or other origins. what are some of the others?


Khan Foxx does a better job than I can so check out his site:
http://waterspirit6x8.tripod.com

[fiercest tiger]

As of the Origin of LHBF wasnt it found at Wah Shan in a cave and the origin was Daoist? I have never heard of any other non daoist LHBF but i maybe wrong. Less filling or not does it give you what you train for? Even if you had the Daoist LHBF can you do it and understand its meanings correct to get anything from it? Do they all end up with the same type of CHI Cultivations?

Soy Kuil,

Ask Sifu on the weekend, i will be at his house on Friday so ill hit him up for some questions too! I think the poem helps to keep you thinking of what you should be learning as long as the correct principles and theories are taught. LHBF was created from a dead mans book or was it.....? ;) ALIENS!! HEHEHE


GREAT INFO
FT

[Soykuil]

Hey FT,
cool can't wait to hear the answers from sifu...lol
i think we both know what they would be.

I totally agree internal is internal no matter what style . we all want the end result of powerful internal ging and chi.
the few people i have met and known that train internal say the same thing about internal training. "No intent", just let the chi flow.

DEATH.....LOL


CVP72
thanks for the link, the information is very interestingi have seen it before.

[fiercest tiger]

The whole thing is are we really doing it right?:)

What does learning LHBF acheive within.....Long Life, relaxation, chi flow? Maybe we are all just nuts doing silly movements and its all just crap?

LOL
FT :)

[cvp72]

As of the Origin of LHBF wasnt it found at Wah Shan in a cave and the origin was Daoist? I have never heard of any other non daoist LHBF but i maybe wrong. Less filling or not does it give you what you train for? Even if you had the Daoist LHBF can you do it and understand its meanings correct to get anything from it? Do they all end up with the same type of CHI Cultivations?

FT

(In no way, shape, or form am I trying to start a lineage war...I can go to the Wing Chun forum for that :)

http://waterspirit6x8.tripod.com/id18.html

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and look at the info for the "Taoist" LHBF. This is what I was referring to when I was trying to ascertain the differences (if any) between your LHBF and others.

[fiercest tiger]

yEAH, thats my sifu, master Corneilus Coelho!

'Let me introduce myself. My name is Cornelius Coelho born January 1941. Father of Portuguese origin and mother Chinese. At age 15, I studied Choy Lay Fut under master Lee Chau. From the mid sixties to the present time I have continuosly taught Liu He Ba Fa. With the martial art concepts of LHBF I have successfully trained students to enter into full combat Kung Fu / Kickboxing/ Boxing competitions in Hong Kong and Australia and internationally with some success. In the late seventies I was the national coach for the Hong Kong Boxing Assn.

Due to health reasons I studied LHBF under master Lo Chi Wun in 1967 and also a rare Taoist martial art called Wun Yuen Yat Hei Cheung. Since gaining my health back I have decided to fully commit myself to perfecting the LHBF and the WYYHC and also sharing my knowledge with others. I migrated to Australia in 1985, joined the Australian Chinese Kung Fu Assn. in 1986 and was elected President in 1988.
LHBF master Lo Chi Wun learned his LHBF from a taoist priest by the name of Ho Tim. While Msr. Lo Chi Wan was teaching LHBF in the Botanical Gardens in Hong Kong, an elderly gentleman by the name of Lee Cheung Wah befriended him. Msr. Lee commented that Lo Chi Wan's LHBF was good but still lacking. My master asked for instuctions and on trying out with Lee, my master acknowledged Lee's skill and went on to study Wun Yuen Yat Hei Cheung from Lee.'
....From the EzBoard Website: 'Master Connie Coelho learned LHBF and Wun Cheun Yut Hay Geun (Cantonese)WCYHG, which pre-dates LHBF from a Taosit Priest, Master Lo Che-Yuen, in Hong Kong ...after he was injured from Competiiton in Thailand and Singapore (He was known as one of the 5 Tigers of Choy Lay Fat) He was taught LHBF, WCYHG and TCM to both heal himself and to strengthen himself after he got injured. I hadn't even finished mastering LHBF so he never mentioned WCYHG to me. WCYHG, of which I have a Video, is more than twice as long as LHBF, more intricate, flowing and powerful. Even Connie says that he has never met or heard of any one who knows of WCYHG. He immigrated to Sydney, Australia back in 1980's and has continued to teach there. He is a true master of the Martial Arts as he has mastered the art, applied the Martial principles and is able to generate real power. I am sure you are thinking that the above is too good to be true. Bear with me and check it out. You may be surprised. In the meantime, I am still looking for some who may have also studied from Master Lo Che-Yuen who may have immigrated to Canada or the US.'

[fiercest tiger]

As i dont do LHBF but only Wun Yuen Kung i do get exposed to LHBF and its teachings. Many teachers come to my Sifu of LHBF and compare, so far many of the LHBF start with Taiji beginning. As Soy Kuil says he has a different start and to my knowledge its much more relaxed then most LHBF styles due to his Doaist ways and expressions. Sifu doesnt believe in intent, Just DO he always says!

Whats LHBF of yours i cant compare to my sifu as i dont know how u play it and your principles.

No lineage wars here either my friend, im not into that!

FT

[Soykuil]

What chi gung you guys have in your versions of LHBF if any and ehat are their names?

we have a long chi gung form that sifu created from the forms.

thanks.

[fiercest tiger]

The Hei gung we do are extracts from wun yuen made into a sequence for people that dont learn the actual Wun Yuen kung system but for health and chi cultivation. As you are aware the moves are simple but yet very powerful and that alone is all you really need if you dont learn the full form or actual form itself.

FT

[cvp72]

April 23-24, 2005
Saturday 9am-1pm
Sunday 9am-1pm

McElroy Conference Room
2nd floor - Boston College
140 Commonwealth Ave
Chestnut Hill, MA 02467

$75 for 1 day, $150 for both days
Marty Cohen
617-233-3973
cohenmt@bc.edu

http://www.wailunchoi.com/vids/index.html

There are alot of application clips on this page. Please download to your local computer and view them locally.

Thanks.

[shen_lung_yi]

Oh yes, and could anyone tell me what are the 12 pillars of LHBF are. i bought the book by paul dillon and was curious as to what they refer to. are they the 12 animals?

I am actually a student of Paul Dillon's and could help a bit on explaning the 12 pillars. The pillars and the animals are not hte same thing. The pillars are standing exercises that are quite demanding, whereas the animal forms are fighting forms. The pillars do use SOME aspects from the animal forms but are quite different in comparison. The pillars help to create channels through which internal energy can flow through effectively.
These demanding standing postures will make you intimately familiar with the energies that spiral internally and externally.
Traditionally speaking the "5 word song" is given prior to learning the long form of LHBF. Thus one should have learned Wai kung, chi kung, nei kung, tai chi ruler, 12 pillars, 12 animals (individual and linked forms), then the 5 word song and the long form. But then we do live in the information age. As long as you practice (I know someone else mentioned that :) ) the book will be beneficial to you no matter what you experience. If oyu read the book without practice than you will be lost.


www.shenlungyi.com
Internal arts for today

[Soykuil]

Shen Lung Yi,
thanks for the reply. So do you have other information on the 12 pillars? is a book out or can we see them anywhere on the net?

[shen_lung_yi]

There is no book or video available from Shifu dillon. I do have available a Wai kung video, a chi kung video, a nei kung video, as well as a 12 pillars video available. I will also have a 12 animals video available soon as well.
If interested please e-mail me at

shifu@shenlungyi.com

I promise you, you will be pleased and will not regret it.


all the best,

Ian

[Dale Dugas]

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/bagua/bk_lhbf.htm

The above link is for a book that was edited by Shrfu Paul Dillon.

Ian, is Shrfu Dillon still in Idaho?

Thanks for sharing your material with us.

[shen_lung_yi]

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/bagua/bk_lhbf.htm

The above link is for a book that was edited by Shrfu Paul Dillon.

Ian, is Shrfu Dillon still in Idaho?

Thanks for sharing your material with us.

And there was another called Disperse the Clouds to see the Sun, which is no longer available. Neither of these books get into the twelve pillars. Disperse the Clouds gets into the basics of the Animals though.

Yes Dale, he is still in Idaho.

By the way, how was the Dragon rolling the pearl program???

All the best to you.

Ian

[Dale Dugas]

Ian,

That program is happening soon at the internal arts association/Chang Seng Feng festival. I unfortunately cannot attend as I have started taking my nursing sschool courses. So im up to my eyeballs in books.

I did however enjoy Dr. Painter for a whole weekend a month ago. He came up here and gave us a sneak peek at the new basics program. We worked on the incredible stuff the whole weekend. The man has some skill.

Look him up if you attend the CSF festival.

I have been exposed to John Li's Hwa Yue Taiji though one of his Boston students. Nice stuff with a lot of coiling and Chan Szu Jin.

Later,

Dale

[shen_lung_yi]

Dale,

I got some footage of Master J. Chung Li from an instructor in Denmark. Master Chung Li did have some amazing skill. That level of LHBF form is truly something to aspire towards.

Unfortunaltely I am not going to the festival either as Shifu Dillon is having a seminar in August and I was told by my Wife to choose one or the other. Since my main interest and point of study these days is Liu He ba fa, my choice was Shifu Dillon. If you ever have a chance to get Mark Mcgee's editorial of Master John Chung Li's commentaries on the "Chinese Five Word Song", is is definately worth the read. I feel that Shifu Dillon's "Five Character Secrets" truly compliments Master Li's comments and gives many meditations to work with.

It is interesting because I was first studying LHBF under the guidance of Shrfu Mike Patterson, but when I came across Shifu Dillon I practically stopped all other studies so as to be able to devote as much time as possible to LHBF. It seems this is what I was looking for. I hope you find it in Bagua or wherever your journey takes you. I am pretty far from where I originally thought I was going and have totally re-evaluated many things in my life.

All the best,

Ian

[Dale Dugas]

Ian,

I will be going to the Gompa this fall add that to being in nursing school and Im way busy. The ends will justify the means in this instance.

Glad to hear you have found something you click with on many levels.

Master Li was incredible.

Luck with your training.

In Boston,

Dale

[Buddy]

Dale,
You're always welcome as my guest down here in Plymouth for our Yizong bagua class on Sats.
Buddy

[Dale Dugas]

Buddy,

I thank you for the invite. I will have to come down and visit with you and your people.

Where do you guys train?

In Quincy,

Dale Dugas

[Buddy]

In Plymouth center on Saturdays. You could probably catch a ride from one of my students fro up there.

[looking_up]

The description of Liu Ho Pa Fa on this page:

http://www.shenlungyi.com/waterboxing.html

is an almost exact copy of the article here:

http://www.liuhopafa.com -> Articles ->

8. An Interview with Wai Lun Choi
Wu Gong - Journal of Chinese Martial Arts March-April 1998

Master Choi discuss his training history and Liu Ho Ba Fa principles

[shen_lung_yi]

:eek: hmmm.....I have to agree.....actually what is on the waterboxing webpage for Shen Lung Yi martial arts was found on another page. I had asked the webmaster to be able to use the information and he agreed. At this point, after seeing this I believe I should change it a bit. I will have to get to it this weekend.
I did not realize that these were originally from Wai Lun Choi.

So sorry for any inconvenience that this may have caused.

All the best,

Ian :eek:

[looking_up]

Even if you just change it a bit you should cite the original article by master Choi - so should the webmaster who put up the page from which you got it from.

I'm not personally affected by this, but this type of thing is way too rampant on the internet especially when it comes to websites about martial arts. I am not accusing you of anything and I'm not trying to be a cop. You seem like a nice guy, Ian.

[shen_lung_yi]

Even if you just change it a bit you should cite the original article by master Choi - so should the webmaster who put up the page from which you got it from.

I'm not personally affected by this, but this type of thing is way too rampant on the internet especially when it comes to websites about martial arts. I am not accusing you of anything and I'm not trying to be a cop. You seem like a nice guy, Ian.

I totally understand that. I really appreciate the heads up though. Thanks again.

Ian