Tai Shin Mun vs. Tai Shin Pek Kwar [Archive]

Mika

03-10-2005, 12:14 PM

I know about the "can of worms" but think peeps here can look past that crap. I am looking for legit info, not to start a flame war etc.

Eager to hear more. I am looking for some distinctive answers as to the differences between the two styles and their history.

Whether PZ is legit or not is a side dish. If someone knows what the situation is and why, of course that info would be appreciated :)

Mika

SifuAbel

03-10-2005, 01:25 PM

I didn't know if I should have put this somewhere else, but I hope it's OK here.

So, what is the relation between the two styles?

Where does Paulie Zink (Tai Shin Pek Kwar) fall in all this?

I appreciate all answers :)

Mika

Practically none, except for the animal they acclaim.

Several different looking styles use the variations tai shen/ tai sing/ tai shin AND the same goes for Pek kwar.

PZ is a clown.

lkfmdc

03-10-2005, 01:28 PM

the short answer, Paulie Zink is a no class clown who stole text and pictures from the real people to prop up his fraud. He has no reall martial art skill and has changed his stories more times than a woman changes her mind.....

jun_erh

03-10-2005, 01:30 PM

tai shin mun won but it was a great battle I've got a clip right here (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/mhs_pb/FirtsPro.gif)

SifuAbel

03-10-2005, 01:31 PM

Mika

03-10-2005, 01:58 PM

Nah, never mind PZ, I have heard before he isn't well respected, whether that's warranted or not.

But the differences between the two styles. I read somewhere Pek Kwar was its own style and was at some point fused with Tai Shin Mun. Pek Kwar being Hammer (Axe) Hand, it should be very different from Tai Shin Mun. Thus I would expect Tai Shin Pe Kwar be very different from Tai Shin Mun.

Does anyone know from experience?

Mika

Starchaser107

03-10-2005, 02:23 PM

Tai Shing Pep Kwar
means
Monkey Style , Axe Fist

Axe Fist is a complete system onto itself , but was incoorporated into the monkey style as fundamentals training.
Another aspect of monkey boxing is another system called Daitang or Grand Eath , which has alot of tumbling and falling movements.

these two style comprise the basics of the system.
the Monkey aspect with regards to tspk is not that much at all. There are very few monkey forms in comparison to the basics.

Starchaser107

03-10-2005, 02:24 PM

Which would probably explain why people buy those tspk videos and think they're getting a monkey form, and wonder why the forms they see on the tape look nothing like a monkey

Royal Dragon

03-10-2005, 04:52 PM

Tai Shing Pek War is still a different Monkey style than Tai Shing Men.

The Monkey of Tai Shing Pekwar was developed in like the 1700's if I am correct. The Tai Shing Men was developed 650 AD. They are two totally unrelated styles patterned after Monkeys as far as I know (Like North and South Mantis).

That pretty much cocludes my knowledge of the subject.

I think Sifu Abel has done both though, so he might be better to compare.

SifuAbel

03-10-2005, 06:23 PM

Tai Shing-Pep Kwar
means
Monkey Style , Axe Fist

Actually I think it means great sage axe hook.
Each style is complementary. They both use monkey as an acclaim animal . It mostly seen in the footwork.

Starchaser107

03-10-2005, 07:23 PM

ok thanx
do you know why it's called great sage but is associated with monkey boxing?
cause hou means monkey right :confused:

SifuAbel

03-10-2005, 09:38 PM

my meager understanding of the translation of dai sing pek gwa is "great sage chopping rising"; the first two refers to the Monkey King of Journey to the West fame (hence the connection to monkey style), the latter to two key fighting principles of the style - basicaly go down and come up, I guess...I've learned but a thimble full of the style (and my hat's off and scraping low to the floor to those who manage to make it their primary calling), so am hardly in any position to say anything definitively - (although I do roll around on the floor and scratch myself rather well, but that's just a typical Saturday night)

Ross, where are ye man? - be this not the case? back me up if so...tear me down if not

What he said,ditto.

lkfmdc

03-10-2005, 10:13 PM

Dai Sing Pek Gwa Myuhn (AKA Da Xing Pi Gua Men) is primarily a combination of two systems.

Dai Sing is another name for the Monkey King (he has many aliases). The system originated in Northern China when the army tried to forceably draft a Di Tang (ground fighting) teacher. The Di Tang shihfu resisted conscription and killed some people. They sent him to prison. Stuck in prison for many years, the Di Tang master supposedly watched monkies outside his window (? yeah, but that's the story) and developed a monkey system based on 5 distinct monkey types (stone, tall, wooden, lost and drunken)

Pek Gwa Myuhn (Pi Gua Men) is a fairly standard northern long fist style. The fact that Zink has NO basic kung fu is a strong point showing what a freak and clown he is... Pek Gwa forms the basis for the Dai Sing Pek Gwa Myuhn system, ie Gan Duk Hoi taught three basic Pek Gwa sets as the first three forms (Pek Gwa Fist, Pek Gwa palm and Pek Gwa leg). YC Wong learned teh three sets from Gan Duk Hoi. I learned two of teh sets from YC Wong (meaning I know more real Dai Sing Pek Gwa than Paulie Zink!)

Gan Duk Hoi's father was a Pek Gwa teacher. He then learned Dai Sing and merged the two systems. Less known is the fact that Gan Duk Hoi's father-in-law did Black Tiger, and thus some Black Tiger is in the system as well. Teh first broadswrod set taught is Black Tiger....

Yes, I am the repository of all sorts of trivial KF knowledge....

lkfmdc

03-10-2005, 10:15 PM

Oh, "pek" means "chopping" and "gwa" means "to hang up" - thus, Pek Gwa means to "chop and hang up" or "chopping and hanging"... it is descriptive of the sort of hand technique done in the system....

Mika

03-11-2005, 01:43 AM

Y'all, thanks! :)

mika

Kristoffer

03-11-2005, 04:55 AM

Starchaser107

03-11-2005, 06:54 AM

Kao (Tze) sp?

gwa sow

03-12-2005, 11:07 AM

i saw one of pz's videos. i felt like i was watching Mr. Rogers neighborhood.

SifuAbel

03-12-2005, 11:23 PM

That voice is funny. Even funnier is that he apparently had to do it all in one day. As the video progresses, he gets sweatier and his voice starts to quiver. The techniques seemed almost made up on the spur of the moment.

Wisdom

03-13-2005, 03:58 AM

Hi

Tai Shing Pek qwar is comprised of Tai Shing, Pek qwar, Black tiger, Grand earth, Chen Tai chi, Xing-yi, and Dragon Swimming Ba Gwa.
The Pek Qwar has the Ying Yang fist and The 3 main Pek Qwar Hand forms which is 1 extra long form shortened to 3 there is different ways of doing the forms if you link them into the one long form. The Pek qwar part of the system is the core.

I do not Know about PZ so I can't help you with that however what I have seen of him Does not look like Tai Shing of Tai Shing Pek Qwar.

Hope this helps alittle

Shaolinlueb

03-13-2005, 10:12 PM

Which would probably explain why people buy those tspk videos and think they're getting a monkey form, and wonder why the forms they see on the tape look nothing like a monkey

let usa not speak of 9 continents staff ever again :o :D

gwa sow

03-14-2005, 07:12 AM

SifuAbel

03-14-2005, 12:17 PM

i mean no disrespect towards the people that practice this art and are legitamate, but are the monkey noises really made when attacking? cause pz kinda sounds like a lunatic going into cunvultions when he make the noises.

Making stupid monkey noises has never been part of any money I've ever practised.

A single shout here or there, maybe. I've seen the occassional grunt. But going off like a howler monkey with its tail cut off is movieland hogwash.

Starchaser107

03-14-2005, 12:31 PM

There are people in the cma community that go as far as saying normal shouting while doing a form is incorrect and depletes chi. Not my opinion but I would say that if you come across anyone making animal noises while doing a form is either doing it for show or is ignorant. I haven't come across monkey yelling either.

gwa sow

03-15-2005, 07:51 AM

i saw one tape ( not sure which one) were he does some kind of low sweep then jumps on the guy and does a bunch of punches with his fist upside down. the whole time he's screeming like a chimp being castrated. so funny i had to watch it over a few times.

Starchaser107

03-15-2005, 09:09 AM

Don't get me wrong though if you're in the process of kicking major butt and you feel so inspired to channel your inner forest creature nature spirit or whatever, then go for it!
It's just not really taught that way though. :cool:

gwa sow

03-15-2005, 01:43 PM

well then, i think i need to go and find my inner forest creature just like him. :D

Kristoffer

03-15-2005, 04:02 PM

We all have an inner forest creature

Three Harmonies

03-15-2005, 08:53 PM

Has anyone here actually trained with Paulie? :rolleyes: I have. I cannot comment on his "legitimacy" (afterall that is very subjective, and what is "PROOF"???) :rolleyes: , but I can comment on his skill. If he is indeed a fake (as many claim) he has to be one of the most amazingly skilled individuals I have run across!! His movements and techniques are crisp, clean, and very powerful. Now I did not touch hands with him hardly at all, so can he apply this?????????? :confused: I have no clue. To say he has no foundation is just ignorant! He was one of the most amazing performers I have seen. Very good teacher too.
I have some of the tapes too, and I agree his applications are ****ing crazy! I doubt he could pull it off on the street, but then again think about this.....how would you react if confronted by someone acting, yelling, moving like this? I can almost guarantee you would pause for a second is sheer amazement, or have a fit of laughter :p , either of which gives him the edge to pull something off.
Again I have no clue if he is the "real" deal, but he certainly has a lot to offer, even if you guys think he is strange and goofy. He is a different duck with different ideas, but that makes him no less talented.
For those making a reference to "Master Chan" the "Monkey King" from HK that moved to Vancouver a few years back, do you ever wonder what his motivation is? Maybe he is the "sole" inheritor, high guru, sensei, alli-baba, sifu from God, but if he is so exalted shouldn't he be more humble and polite? He made a buck off of all the nay sayers by slamming another martial artist he admits he has never met! Where is the Wude? I have tried to visit Mr. Chan in Vancouver, and him and his son were very off putting to me and were not very friendly towards a potential student! Says a lot to me.
His Pek Kwar (Piqua in Mandarin) does not look like some of the Piqua I have learned, but again that means little.

Just my 2 cents
Jake :D

Starchaser107

03-15-2005, 09:36 PM

ok fair enough.

but if I ever hear ANYONE mention the term "wude" again
I swear i'm gonna unleash my hidden forest creature so fast you'll think paulie zinks yelping was baby ca ca.

SifuAbel

03-16-2005, 12:26 AM

I can almost guarantee you would pause for a second is sheer amazement, or have a fit of laughter :p , either of which gives him the edge to pull something off.

No, it won't. Moves have to flow and be somewhat continuous. Even if the weird does take a person a second, it still won't stop an aggetated attacker from proceeding to whoop ass. Monkey style is not about posing in front of your attacker in a weird posture. Heres a clue: all those cool, weird and odd postures should be the ends of the move not the begining.

From what I've seen so far, his tapes are the same old "vs. frozen man" stuff you see everywhere else. There has to be an effect, even if going light. Some modicum of control over the demonstating student. They almost seemed disconnected and put together on the spot. He does have his moments but they are few.

You didn't cross hands. Perhaps you should have.

He was off putting to you? Did you announce yourself as a student of PZ?

Being the head of a lineage doesn't affect your personality. I too am sick of the "humble self depricating sifu" non-sense. It isn't true for the majority that I've met. Some of them may have been nice guys and all; but they were regular joes for the most part. Being a sifu in CMA means you learned a martial skill. Its not a badge of enlightenment.

Three Harmonies

03-16-2005, 12:35 AM

No I did not announce myself as a student of his. I have trained with him only once. I am a Mantis player and my teacher lives in Richmond BC just around the bend from Chan. I just simply went down to check out the class.
Again I agree with your assertation of his fighting techniques, but I can tell you that his movements were as smooth as anyones out there!
Jake :D

grassrootronin

03-18-2005, 02:24 PM

Tai Shin Mun Vs Tai Shing Pek Kwar
This is a can of worms,
And it saddens me that all the monkey schools cant just get along.
I trained with Paulie Zink for 4 years, and it was the most grueling training I have ever done. The man knows his art, but does not show it to many, and tapes do show anything any how.
I have also met the Tai Shin Mun people in Finland, they are strong.
I introduced my self to Grandmaster Chan Sau Chung and Master Chan Kai Leung at a tournament in Florida a couple of years ago, a USAWKF event. I told them I trained with Paulie Zink and expressed my disappointment that thing did not work out between the two of them. They were respectful to me and asked me to keep in contact with them, but to my mistake I haven't. ( life happens )

I moved on from Paulie Zink 4 years ago and studied with the Beijing opera under Qi Jian Guo and moved out to CT to study with Master Hu Jian Qiang two time all around wushu champion. onward.

This being said I will try to answer Mika's question, which is a good question.
What they share is the name and the relation to the myth of Sun Wu Kung, and Journey to the west. The main difference between them is that Tai Shin Mun claim a Buddhist heritage and Paulie Zink's Tai Shing claims a Taoist one. I do not know Grandmaster Chan Sau Chung's belief system nor would I try to guess that’s really it as far as I could tell. In any case I hold the Tai Shin Mun crew in respect and well as Grandmaster Chan Sau Chung and his son Master Chan Kai Leung.
But somewhere they all must meet I think, but it is beyond me at this time.

People practice for different reasons some to fight other to benefit them selves, it is my hope that the Monkey kung fu practitioners will get past the contention and look at the things we share, namely Sun Wu Kung. For the art and the myth are bigger things than any one person. I know that is a lot to ask of human beings.

Jai Sun Wu Kung, Jai Hanuman,
In training,
Damon

Brad

03-18-2005, 08:32 PM

I think the whole plagiarism thing pretty much kills any chance of the two groups getting along.

Mika

03-18-2005, 10:41 PM

Thanks for the new replies. It seems the differences and origins are not that clear. Whatever, more important is how they fight and how they respond to other schools and systems.

I wish one day I'll have a chance to see Pek Kwar, too. Tai Shin Mun I can see here. Might I add, they are genuine, these guys are traditional. And although Wu De is not supposed to be mentioned here ( :D ), I can tell you the TSM peeps here understand it. The martial arts scene is just as torn apart here as it is everywhere else (although things are getting better [everywhere?], thanks to MMA, I must say), so to have these cool TSM people around is very refreshing. We, the Tang Lang crew, have made an agreement with TSM here: if one of their students gets tired of TSM and wants continue in the path of original Kung Fu, they will recommend us. We'll do the same.

I will pass along the greetings to the TSM people here in Finland.

Thanks, y'all, once again. It's been an interesting thread :)

//mika

SifuAbel

03-19-2005, 12:32 PM

"and tapes do show anything any how."

Actually, they speak volumes. He is either the faker or the progeny of a faker as people think. Or, he is the biggest scoundrel on the planet for showing one thing and doing another.

We've all done grueling work. Monkey is not easy.

You have been all over the world doing monkey. Is there anywhere we can see some of your skill?

I am very curious as to what the TSM people look like. Do you know of any links?

jmd161

03-19-2005, 03:43 PM

Gan Duk Hoi's father was a Pek Gwa teacher. He then learned Dai Sing and merged the two systems. Less known is the fact that Gan Duk Hoi's father-in-law did Black Tiger, and thus some Black Tiger is in the system as well. Teh first broadswrod set taught is Black Tiger....

Yes, I am the repository of all sorts of trivial KF knowledge....

Mr. Ross,

I'd be interested in knowing how much information your repository holds on Hak Fu Muhn?

There are somethings that i never speak of on forums such as the little known Black Tiger facts ,but i'd be interested in speaking with you through pm or email.

jeff:)

grassrootronin

03-19-2005, 09:43 PM

I am glad to see people in conversation about all of this.
I will admit Paulie Zink's applications are not my cup of tea most the time,
there are other things about his art I use and that are good,
The Tai Shin Mun crew are traditional and good fighters, I only met them not trained with them.
I hope to meet Grandmaster Chan Sau Chung or Master Chan Kai Leung again someday and be honored by there art,
on another point the actual plagerism that happend you can blame Mike (Gonzolas) Matsuda for that, he is trouble in my opinion and I think he is the one key responsible for the whole mess. (there are those of us who have been among Paulie's ranks that do not like Mike)and why is he the 6th what ever I do not know.

Tai Shing and the training Paulie gave me the physical conditions to study in the Beiling opera to study the role of Sun Wu Kung, as well as adapt to master Hu Jian Qiang's wu shu. All that traveling changed me, and allowed me to be free of style and cultivate a bigger purpose in the martial art, or I would just be still a "samurai thug"
in any case Sun Wu Kung took me to many masters and I hope more still.
the main piont is that I serve no man or sifu I serve the art and the myth that is the inspiration.

I doubt i will post again, i do not have the time, if any of you choose to remain in contact with me ( for Sifu Abel, skill in action is good)
my web site (that is in constant change and update) is

www.wayofthenomad.com

contact me there,
Jai hanuman, Jai Sun Wu Kung
Peace,
Damon

lkfmdc

03-20-2005, 06:26 PM

I've posted the same info over and over, I guess it is time to post it again...

I know someone who was very close to Paulie Zink. Zink is a FRAUD, 100% simple cut and dry case. He know NO MONKEY. He has made up everything that he does and in the last years has been desperately trying to hide how big a fraud he is by plagerizing Chan Sau Chung and telling bold faced LIES

Paulie Zink studied some Hung Gar in CA. This is the ONLY real KF he ever learned. He wasn't very advanced nor very accomplished but tried to set himself up as a teacher....

No one is really sure how he jumped on the monkey wagon, but one day he started telling people he did monkey kung fu. Back then, his sifu was a "secret". He used to tell people that he was a member of a secret society and couldn't reveal his name :rolleyes:

In all seriousness and no disrespect, Paulie Zink has a mental condition that explains his flexibility. It is a mild form of retardation. IE, if he decides "today, I'm going to stretch for 8 hours" he will indeed go ahead and do it. NOTE; I am not saying he is "stupid" or not functional, I am talking about a particular obsessive disorder that when it comes to training can actually be a plus

My friend knew Paulie Zink for YEARS.... He remembers Zink's "secret teacher" stage followed by him having a friend who he then tried to pass off as his sifu. The friend was Japanese but Zink tried to pass him off as Chinese....

When my friend went to Hong Kong, Zink asked him for two things, a copy of Chan Sau Chung's book and a monkey outfit like the opera people use. Thus, the outfit Zink became famous for and the book he plagerized both came directly from my friend. My friend can also testify that Zink knew NOTHING about real Tai Sing Pek gwa. When my friend got back from Hong Kong, he translated almost all of the book for Zink who was clueless...

Also, my friend studied with Chan Sau Chung while in HK, and told Zink that he was really clueless about what the system was about. Before my friend, Zink didn't know about the 5 monkies at all

gwa sow

03-20-2005, 09:59 PM

whew,....is it me or is it starting to get a little hot in here :cool:

lkfmdc

03-24-2005, 02:14 PM

My final thought on this....

TCMA has created its own vicious cycle... our community is obsessed so much with lineage and teachers that everyone feels the need to come up with a "special one". This need often results in lies, distortions and in this case PLAGERISM....

IE, if Paulie Zink had said "hey, I made up some monkey stuff based upon reading books, watching movies and going the opera"... all you could do was judge him based upon the content of what he was doing. It may be good, it may be aweful....

When someone lies, plagerizes, steals, and insults others, then the only choice is to denounce them, regardless of any skill or such

smarshall

03-28-2005, 08:04 PM

Hello Monkey fans,
Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents since I am a huge fan of Journey to the West “Xi You Ji”. Monkey has many names including Monkey King “Hou Wang”, Protector of the Horses, and his Buddhist name “Sun WuKong”. Sun was the family name given him by his teacher who taught him MA and 72 transformations. WuKong “Awakened to Emptiness” was the name given by the Tang priest Tang SanZang. The name he often goes by in MA is “Da Sheng” or “Great Sage”. This is short for his full title (self imposed) “Qi Tian Da Sheng” or “Great Sage Equaling Heaven”. Here are the Chinese characters: 齐天大圣.
Hope this is helpful in some way. I encourage everyone to read the book, it’s great! Many famous sayings and poems are can be found in it. Like: “Teacher for a day, father for life”. And 光阴似箭日月如梭 “guang yin si jian, ri yue ru suo”, roughly translated as “time flies”.
Peace,
-Sean