Fists VS Palms

[SPJ]

In you school of MA, do you use fists more or palms more?

Why and how?

What is the difference between the vertical fist vs the horizontal fist　直拳　ｖｓ　平拳?

What kind of palm forms?

Do you have hook hand or Gou Shou　钩手？

In Tai Ji, there is the palm form called roof tile or 探瓦掌． The pinkie and the thumb are closer together and form a well or tile like in the center of the plam. It is easy to grab or as if grabbing a ball.

:confused:

[tanglang69]

This was taken from the modernwarrior website. During my defensive tactics classes at work, I teach the open hand (palm strikes) to various targets for the following reason.

Abel S, Cesaire R, Cales-Quist D, Bera O, Sobesky G, Cabie A.
Occupational transmission of human immunodeficiency virus and hepatitis C virus after a punch.
Clin Infect Dis 2000 Dec;31(6):1494-5

Center for Information and Care on Human Immunodeficiency, University Hospital of Fort-de-France, Martinique, French West Indies. cisih-mart@sasi.fr

Although the simultaneous transmission of either human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and hepatitis C virus or HIV and hepatitis B virus from a single source has already been described, this is the first case of transmission to occur after a blow with the fist.

The link to the article:
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/CID/journal/issues/v31n6/000049/000049.html
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Clinical Infectious Diseases 2000;31:1494-1495
© 2000 by the Infectious Diseases Society of America. All rights reserved.
1058-4838/2000/3106-0023$03.00


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HIV/AIDS
BRIEF REPORT


Occupational Transmission of Human Immunodeficiency Virus and Hepatitis C Virus after a Punch

Sylvie Abel,1 Raymond Césaire,2 Danielle Cales-Quist,1 Odile Béra,2 Guy Sobesky,1 and André Cabié1

1Center for Information and Care on Human Immunodeficiency, and 2Laboratory of Virology and Cellular Immunology, University Hospital of Fort-de-France, Martinique, French West Indies



Although the simultaneous transmission of either human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and hepatitis C virus or HIV and hepatitis B virus from a single source has already been described, this is the first case of transmission to occur after a blow with the fist.




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Reprints or correspondence: Sylvie Abel, CISIH Martinique, CHU de Fort-de-France BP 632, 97261 Fort-de-France Cedex, Martinique (cisih-mart@sasi.fr).



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Awareness of the risk of occupational transmission of HIV to health care workers dates back to December 1984, when the first case of needlestick-transmitted HIV infection was reported [1]. From December 1984 through September 1997, a total of 94 documented cases and 170 possible cases of occupational transmission of HIV to health care workers were reported worldwide. However, individuals with other types of jobs also risk occupational exposure to bloodborne infection. We report the case of a policeman in whom both HIV and hepatitis C virus (HCV) seroconversion were clearly documented after he was involved in a bloody fight while making an arrest.

A 52-year-old policeman (patient A) presented with a positive HIV result on EIA. Ten weeks previously, he had developed an acute mononucleosis-like syndrome. Acute HIV-1 infection was confirmed by means of gradual Western blot positivity. His CD4+ lymphocyte count was 399 × 109 cells/L, and his plasma level of HIV type 1 (HIV-1) RNA was 503,200 copies/mL. Alanine aminotransferase activity was slightly elevated. No antibodies to HCV were detected, and the patient was immune to hepatitis B virus (HBV). Three weeks later, HCV seroconversion was diagnosed (by means of EIA, recombinant immunoblot assay, and plasma HCV RNA positivity). The patient's sex partner was seronegative for both viruses, and the patient denied having had another sex partner during the previous 6 months. He had never received blood transfusions and had never been an injection drug user. However, he disclosed that, 3 weeks before the onset of his illness, he had punched a man in the teeth while making an arrest. Although he had noticed 2 wounds on his hand, which was covered with blood, he did not wash his hand immediately after the incident. Within a few days after the arrest, he developed lymphangitis that required antibiotic treatment.

The man who received the punch (patient B) was known to be infected with HIV-1, human T lymphotropic virus type 1 (HTLV-1), HBV, and HCV, but patient B declined all treatment. Six months after the incident, patient B's CD4+ lymphocyte count was 552 × 109 cells/L, his plasma level of HIV-1 RNA was 52,900 copies/mL, and his plasma level of HCV RNA (Amplicor HCV Monitor; Roche Diagnostics, Branchburg, NJ) was 132,052 copies/mL.

The strains of HIV and HCV that infected the 2 patients were compared. Viruses were isolated from the plasma of patient A at 4 months after the incident and from patient B at 6 months after the incident. Both HCV strains were determined to be genotype 2a. Nucleotide sequencing of the amplification product of the V3 region of HIV and the NS5b region of HCV revealed, respectively, 98.7% and 100% identity for the strains infecting the 2 patients. Fifteen months after the fight, the serological results of HTLV-1 testing were still negative.

Simultaneous transmission of either HIV and HCV or HIV and HBV from a single source has been previously described [2, 3]; however, to our knowledge, this is the first proven case of HIV-HCV coinfection that occurred as the result of a blow with the fist. Although HIV is probably infrequently transmitted via this route, this case raises the question of whether prophylaxis should be used after potential exposure to HIV during a bloody fight with an HIV-infected (or possibly HIV-infected) individual, as is recommended after other types of potential exposure to HIV, especially among individuals with frequent occupational exposure to HIV (e.g., police and fire department employees, etc.) [4]. Similarly, the risk of transmission of HCV infection during violent incidents should be taken into account.

References



1. Ippolito G, Puro V, Heptonstall J, Jagger J, De Carli G, Petrosillo N. Occupational human immunodeficiency virus infection in health care workers: worldwide cases through September 1997. Clin Infect Dis 1999; 28:36583. First citation in article | PubMed
2. Ridson R, Gallagher K, Ciesielski C, et al. Simultaneous transmission of human immunodeficiency virus and hepatitis C virus from a needle-stick injury. N Engl J Med 1997; 336:91922. First citation in article | PubMed
3. Brambilla A, Pristera R, Salvatori F, Poli G, Vicensi E. Transmission of HIV-1 and HCV by head-butting. Lancet 1997; 350:1370. First citation in article | PubMed
4. Lurie P, Miller S, Hecht F, Chesney M, Lo B. Postexposure prophylaxis after nonoccupational HIV exposure. JAMA 1998; 280:176973. First citation in article | PubMed
Have a nice day!

tanglang69
oved :)

[MasterKiller]

My primary fist formation is a Willow Palm Fist.

[red5angel]

in wingchun it was mostly closed fists, in capoeira the few hand strikes we've worked have been mostly open hand palm strikes.

I don't prefer either, and can work with both. I feel my punches are mroe powerful then my palm strikes but that could be a by product of practicing those more. I don't worry about breaking my hands, it's a possibility but I hit the sandgbag regularly and punch enough that my hands are pretty well conditioned.

[tanglang69]

To Punch or Not to Punch, That is the Question!
by George Demetriou



It's not uncommon. Police officer attempts to arrest suspect, suspect violently resists, officer delivers punch to suspect's head. Officer injures hand. Many officers have broken their hands, and most will say injuries are a reality of the job. Maybe, but what if there was an alternative to punching that was safer and more effective?

Actually there is. The palm strike. It's the heel of the palm you make contact with, but it's referred to as a palm strike. To execute a palm strike, its important to have the right hand position. The hand is pulled back as far as possible, locking the wrist and the fingers should be allowed to curl slightly forward. The palm and finger tips should face the target. Contact is made with the very bottom of the palm just before the wrist.



Officer Safety - Palm Strike vs. Fisted Strikes


When knuckles meet skull during a confrontation, the skull will always win. I don't think anyone will argue that former heavyweight Champ Mike Tyson is an accomplished puncher. When Mr. Tyson punched former Heavyweight contender Mitch Green on the head, Tyson's hand broke. Neither man wore gloves for the bout. The fight took place on a Harlem street corner. You can see why boxers pay someone good money to tape their hands.

My question to those in law enforcement is: If men who get paid lots of money to punch people, who train constantly to develop their punches, break their hands in street fights what makes you think it won't happen to you?

Strong hand injuries are the number one arrest-related injury in police work. This will continue as long as defensive tactics are strongly influenced by martial arts (this includes boxing) that emphasize fisted strikes.

"The most common injury occurs when you strike with the last two knuckles. The 5th metacarpal breaks (between the knuckles of the middle finger and pinkie), commonly referred to as a boxer's fracture," states James Prattas, MD of Metropolitan Hospital in NYC. Dr. Prattas, also a martial artist stated, "I can't think of any reason to strike with a fist over using a palm strike."

"A fracture will take 6-8 weeks to heal, while a sprain (tear in ligament) could take up to 6 months to heal. Rehabilitation could take 3-4 months, according to Faye Grant, a Registered Occupational Therapist, from the Hand Therapy Center, in Floral Park, NY.

Police officers who seriously injured their hands during a violent confrontation were asked if they thought they could get a solid grip on their firearms after the injury. The answer was sometimes, "I don't know," but most often just, "No."

"Grip strength comes from the ulnar side (pinky side) of the hand. A boxer's fracture would significantly affect your grip. Try to hold anything with a handle without using your fourth finger," says Stuart Kandel, Orthopedic Surgeon from Bay Shore, NY. "It would be much easier to disarm an officer who received this fracture."

The Medical Doctors, Physical Therapists and Occupational Therapists the author interviewed all agreed that with the palm strike done correctly the chances of injuring the hand are slim. "The position of Maximum Boney stability in the hand is the close-pack position which is full extension of the hand. Full extension of the hand is the palm strike position," according to Bill Partridge, Physical Therapist of Nassau/Suffolk Physical Therapy in Syosset, NY.

Taking shooting and/or firearm retention into consideration, the palm strike seems to be the logical choice of strikes.

Another serious health related problem we have to consider is cutting the knuckles on the perpetrator's teeth. Punches are usually directed to the head area including the face. The mouth is something you definitely want to avoid. However the teeth may be struck inadvertently. "Everyone you encounter violently has AIDS, until proven otherwise, humans have the most infectious mouths, once you break skin you are introducing all those germs to your body", says Dr. Prattas. "The heel of the palm making impact with the mouth distributes contact area equally making it difficult to break skin if the teeth are struck. With a punch, one knuckle may hit the teeth, breaking skin easily."

"The skin on the Dorsal side (top of the hand) is easily cut because it is very thin. The opposite is true of the skin on the palm," says O.T.R. Faye Grant.

According to Dr. Kandel, "When you open your hand from a fist tendons pull back. If the knuckles are cut when a full taut fist strikes teeth the act of opening the hand pulls bacteria in. Serious infection can set in 24-48 hours later".

Germs do not fester as easily in the fleshy palm of the hand as they do in the knuckles. There have been cases where cuts caused by human teeth on knuckles resulted in the hand being surgically removed to stop the spread of Gangrene.



Effectiveness of Palm Strikes


The palm strike is safe for the officer to use, but it's also quite effective. A palm strike done on a slightly upward angle has a tremendous amount of leverage. One need only to strike a heavy bag suspended from a stand or ceiling to see this. Compare the reactions of the bag when you punch or palm strike. There's a more violent jump in the bag when you palm strike.

Punches have a primary effect on the target struck. A punch to the head will usually affect the area the knuckles made contact with. Palm strikes have a secondary effect. A palm strike to the head won't cause much damage to the contact point, but will have an effect on the neck and usually jars the body. A palm strike done under the chin will often produce a one shot knock-out due to the whip lash effect. A palm strike anywhere to the head area will almost always affect balance, because the strike will take the assailant's ears out of line with his hips. This opens up other parts of the body for combinations or a takedown. The palm strike can be used effectively to the head, body, hip socket and knees. Punches are best used against muscular parts of the body to avoid injury to the puncher. Palm strikes are good to grab off of and make it easier to strike someone with an object in your hand. You never know when you'll get caught having to strike while you are holding your radio and firearm.

Another nice bonus of palm strikes is they don't seem as violent as clenching your fist and striking someone. Having your hands open will make the strike to appear a push to the untrained eye. Palm strikes will go over better than punches on the evening news.



The Fist Reflex


An involuntary discharge experiment conducted by International Defensive Tactics and Research Foundation (I.D.T.) between December 1991 and September 1993 showed that being trained to use your fists may lead to having an involuntary discharge.

Phil Messina, President of Modern Warrior® Defensive Tactics Institute states, "The fist reflex is a response which occurs when an individual psychologically associates making a fist with high stress confrontational situations".

All experiment participants were police officers, male and female with an average time in service of three and one half years. No Modern Warrior® students were permitted to participate. One group struck heavy bags at a minimum of 800 strikes with their fists, the second group struck heavy bags at a minimum of 800 strikes with open hands and the third group just did the final stress simulation. The final simulation consisted of having an officer enter a smoke filled room, where the smoke has an odor and taste, strobe lights are on, the terrain is obstructed and wind is created by the use of high speed fans. All senses are overloaded. Suddenly gunshots go off (on tape) and a figure comes running at the officer waving hands and screaming. The figure runs into the officer unless the officer moves away. This scenarios purpose is to stress out the officer enough to cause an involuntary discharge of the officer's firearm.

Each group had 50 participants. From the fist group there were 18 involuntary discharges. Nine of those officers had their finger off trigger prior to discharge. From the non-fist group there were 3 involuntary discharges, with 2 finger off trigger prior to discharge. From the control group 1 finger off trigger prior to discharge.

"Post Experiment interviews strongly indicated that a high percentage of participants who had involuntary discharges had studied martial arts emphasizing fisted strikes. Boxers were foremost in this category," said Messina.

Based partially on these experiments Modern Warrior® DT Institute has taken all fisted strikes out of their Police Defensive Tactics curriculum and replaced them with palm strikes and other open handed alternatives when counter striking becomes necessary.



Conclusion


Using fisted strikes as the primary hand technique of police defensive tactics training is a perfect example of how sport martial arts influence police training. Many DT Instructors have a boxing or karate background, they teach what they like to do. Defensive tactics has to be based on what law enforcement officers will encounter in the field, not what an instructor encountered in the ring. The primary strike should make sense for police work. The primary hand technique for law enforcement should be the palm strike. - GD

tanglang69
ovee

[SifuAbel]

OT

Is Sylvie Abel cuban?

[SevenStar]

hard to soft, soft to hard.... palm to skull, fist to body.

that said, however, I don't use palms much.

as for the vertical vs horizontal fist, they are structurally different. Some may say the vertical is more structurally correct. striking surface is a tad different, too.

[PangQuan]

Same as SevenStar. :)

[red5angel]

I personally prefer foot to face if I can help it. That usually works :D

[Fu-Pow]

CLF uses a lot of palm strikes but in real fighting situations I have almost always reverted to fists.

Just instinct I guess.

[SPJ]

There is an interesting move in Tong Bei 通臂拳.

It is called Zuan Zhang or 钻掌.

You start with palms open and fingers pointing forward. When you are close to the opponent then you clench your fist and punch.

People disbelieve Qi therefore they dish Tai Ji 太极.

There are 8 basic methods.

Let us touch 4.

a. Peng or 堋: you use your forearm or the root of the palm, your rotate in front of you from inward outward, lower upward. It is an expanding body structure. If you use power on forearm, not so good. If your bend your knee and sink Qi in Dan Tien单田 and then via Yi and Qi to move the forearm, so much better. You may straight knee a bit. So that the opponent's Jin only goes upward and not downward. He or she may not enter your front.

b. Lu or 捋: You use your palms to grab the wrist and the elbow, you rotate your waist, so that the opponent falls to his front or your laterally rear. He starts the Jin, you continue. Your whole body moves with Qi may work better.

c. Ji or 挤: you push with your forearm so that the opponent may only move backward. Force with the forearm only or positioning and the whole body push with Qi better.

d. An or 按: you use your palm to feel the opponent's Jin and push downward, so that he may not go upward. Then the force of the palm, or the whole body Jin with Qi?

What happens to the opponent?

He enters and goes upward. He punches, pushes and he falls to his front. He got Ji to backward and cannot move forward. He got push downward and not able to go upward.

You are using your whole body Jin with Qi to effect his whole body and balance.

If only have the force of palm or forearm, may be not as effective.

I may not be able to prove Qi. But I provide some info that how Tai Ji works better with Qi. So inhale and exhale and so on and so forth.

:rolleyes:

[WinterPalm]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most boxers train with wraps and gloves on so that the conditioning of the knuckles against a hard surface is through padding.

[Becca]

Like 7* said: hard to soft, soft to hard. usually only closed hand that goes to the head is aimed at the side to soft areas.

Vertical punch is for in fighting at waist level, and is used much like an uppercut. horizontal is for when you need to use a bit more reach.

Most shots to the head or sternum are open hand palm strikes and ridge hands. Neck shots are usually chops, bearpaw jabs, or stiff finger gouges. Don't hit the chin if it can be helped beacuse the damage to them is usually minimal and the chance to mess your hand up is very great.

This is how every teacher I have studied under taught. This is not generally how I spar... but then again, I'm no master. ;) :D