Chi Sao dummy?

[Jeff Liboiron]

has anyone here seen or or made themsleves a chi sao dummy for practicing techniques on? if so how did you make it?

The object is not to hurt someone else, but to stop them from hurting you

[whippinghand]

Perhaps it's called a Mook Jong, aka Wooden Dummy?
Not quite sure, just throwing that one in the air...

[Jeff Liboiron]

Nope, i have a mook jong, what i'm looking for is a dummy to drill your Chi Sao technique, as in sticky hands. :)

The object is not to hurt someone else, but to stop them from hurting you

[joy chaudhuri]

Egads Jeff- do you have a good wing chun teacher? Ask him. Chi sao with a dummy?Sorry, I am still laughing. i will get over it.As Scarlett Ohara sez-tomorrow is another day.

[Ish]

How would a dummy help your chi sao it would not move and couldn't give you any energy to work with.
My advise is to train with another person.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Actually, I have seen a dummy with spring arms in an article some time ago. I believe that it was in MA Training and the author was Mike Young.

Basically this consisted of one arm which was welded to a coil spring from an automobile. It provided some give and reaction to force applied to it. It is not a replacement for Chi Sau but this might be what Jeff is thinking of. Also, I heard a rumor that there was a similiar type fo device with two arms......not sure about that though.

When one does not have a steady partner than one sometimes needs to improvise and make do with other things. The "hanging" Jong is a relatively new device which was developed for the specific needs of some practicioners. Maybe a "Chi Sau" dummy is next ;)

Peace,

Dave

[Spectre]

I could also see a newer student wanting a 'Chi Sao Dummy' to strengthen the shoulders as well as learning the timing of strikes - not necessarily for the sensitivity.

Tell me that you don't remember or even still encounter the burning in your shoulders during chi sao! Remember hearing 'Loosen up - don't be so heavy' when you shoulders feel like they are going to fall off?

Just a thought...

Kevin

__________________________________________________ _______________

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

[whippinghand]

Perhaps it's called a Mook Jong, aka Wooden Dummy?

[reneritchie]

The Jook Jong (Bamboo Dummy), part of several mainland lineages, was sometimes called a "chi sao" dummy because, due to the flexible nature of the bamboo, you had to really develop the sticking aspect to ensure the bamboo didn't leak or run around and smack you. In modern times, as the quality and availability of good bamboo has fluctuated, some have tried to make versions with spring arms (some in the Yip Man lineages have experiented with this as well).

Rgds,

RR

[Spectre]

As always, your clever reply helped tremendously!

I await your clever thread on 'How to 'roll' with the Mook'! :rolleyes:

In addition to my earlier post I am adding that I have never heard of a Chi Sao dummy (Thanks for the post Rene!)nor have I ever seen one for sale. But I can see where a new student would ask about it.

Kevin

__________________________________________________ ___________

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

[Sihing73]

Hi Rene,

Zopa had sent me a photo of the Bamboo Dummy but I can't seem to find it. I was wondering if you had a photo of one or could provide any of the dimensions. If so e-mail me and I would also be glad to post it here so everyone could see it. Thanks.

Peace,

Dave

[joy chaudhuri]

I was laughing at the idea and not the poster.
Apologies for any mis-perception. You can't chi sao with a wooden dummy. It is an inanimate object. Although I have seen photos of a contemporary generation master perhaps two working the dummy blindfolded!As far back as 1976 I saw a dummy for sale- made of metal with two sets of hands and legs with springs so that two persons could work on it at the same time.
Kernsprecht briefly had created a contraption where
you stick your arms into sleeves of a machine and move them Sorry-IMO there is no substitute for chi sao.

[Jeff Liboiron]

Two things:

1) Shut
2) Up


I don't have a steady partener to train with Fen, so i don't get a lot of chi sao practice time, of course there's nothing as good as having a partner to do chi sao with, but since i don't have one, i need to improvise.

Nothing wrong with this IMO, i want it to practice variations of strikes strikes and combos, and then when i do chi sao with someone i can try them out.

I suppose you think mook jongs are dumb to?

The object is not to hurt someone else, but to stop them from hurting you

[joy chaudhuri]

Ok Jeff:
The floor on this thread is all yours.
Sorry.

[whippinghand]

The idea of a chi sau dummy IS stupid. It's best to get your head out of that line of thinking, or your Wing Chun will be a lost cause. You're better off not doing chi sau at all.

I am not suggesting that the wooden dummy is for "chi sau"ing. It's certainly not. However, since you have a mook jong, it might be more worth your while to train what you can on that, without the idea of chi sau in your head. Like yuen fan said, it IS an inanimate object.

If you understand what chi sau is about (really understand), then you'll understand what he means by that. If you don't, in other words, if you can't accept that, then it just confirms that you're better off not chi sauing at all. Put that time to better use.

Train hard, but train smart.

[Sihing73]

Hi WH,

I am sure that to many the stance in Wing Chun looks "stupid". To others the idea of only having three forms may appear stupid as some equate more with better.

While I agree that Chi Sau can only be done with a partner I can sympahtize with Jeffs plight. What does one do if one does not have a steady partner? There are several things one can do which will aid ones Chi Sau. I once posted an exercise using a Bicycle Inner Tube. This, like the idea of a Chi Sau Dummy, is only to aid one in times when no partner is available. When one is alone then one may need to improvise. Naturally, one will have errors which will need to be corrected when one gets the opportunity to touch hands. Still, if one were to develope a dummy used to drill the movements of Chi Sau then I don't see why it would have to be "stupid".

Of course, practice in the air will aid one but I think Jeff is looking for some interaction which wil aid his developement without the benefit of a partner. If so I would direct him to Jessie Glover as he has developed some things specific to Chi Sau and the "muscles" used in this exercise. Of course, the idea is to be sensitive not strong :D

I don't think that it is "stupid" for one to desire another method to aid in his training. Such a device may not meet all the criteria but it can pave the way for something better in the future. In todays age of technological advances we may one day have "virtual" chi sau partners. Of course this would never happen if we limit ourselves or our minds because it has not been done before or is considered "stupid"

Just a thought.

Peace,

Dave

[Gluteus Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In todays age of technological advances we may one day have "virtual" chi sau partners. [/quote]

The technology already exists. Just needs someone to adapt it.

Max

Yooby Yoody

[whippinghand]

"Such a device may not meet all the criteria but it can pave the way for something better in the future"

It won't pave the way. It will deter one's training, developing misconceptions of what chi sau is.

[This message was edited by Whipping Hand on 11-07-01 at 08:57 AM.]

[Sihing73]

Hi WH,

So are you saying that there is no room to improvise or add anything to aid in the study of Wing Chun? If one approaches things with the right frame of mind is it really going to degrade your skills? Have you or your Sifu changed anything in your approach or do you do things exactly like those before you. If so I would expect to see several students from your lineage perform things exactly alike with almost no deviation. :D

I suppose the developement of "Poon Sau" which is relatively new, should never have happened because they did not have it before. Imagine the skills lost by incorporating learning how to roll :rolleyes:

Whipping Hand, I fully belive in not adding things for the sake of adding things but as times change new training methods are sometimes needed to keep up with the times. I am not saying this is the case here, but Jeff does not have a partner and is seeking the best alternative. You advocated the Jong, perhaps you would be willing to expound on that and point him in the right direction as to how he could specifically improve his "Chia Sau" with the Jong.

Peace,

Dave

[reneritchie]

Dave,

I don't have any pictures handy. There's one of the late Yiu Kai sifu's version in Leung Ting's Roots & Branches of Wing Tsun if that helps.

Basically, according to the old accounts, the Muk Yan Jong was composed of the mast of the Red Junk (where the arms and leg could be removed and hidden when needed) while the Gwun Jong (Pole Dummy) and Juk Jong used the cabin walls. For the Gwun Jong, lengths of pole were placed in holes, while for the Juk Jong, lengths of bamboo. A beginner could start with one and increase up to patterns of 5, 7, or 9. (you can see a picture of the Gwun Jong here (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/chisim/forms.shtml))

Rgds,

RR

[OdderMensch]

if anyones seen "prodigal son" Samo makes a "dummy" for his daughter to practice "dan chi sao" (i think thats what it was for at least)

while its hard to imagine a non human chi sau "partner" im sure its been tried for years by various people. Most of the ones i've thought of are either to complex or otherwise impractical.

While I can see bad habits devoloping from this I can also see eaqualy bad habits devoloping from a lack of instruction or practice.

there is a saying I recall that goes "get a shadow partner and your progress will increase" I've lucjed out in that i live with two other students of WC and never have to wait long for a Chi Sau partner. But I also try to "touch hands" with as many people as possible so i dont become over sensitive to one partners responses.

[joy chaudhuri]

This post is in response to the recent
Sihing(Dave) post and is NOT directed to the original poster. Sure individual changes can creep into the art but many folks who change
fundamentals often dont understand the art in the first place. Chi sao with a live partner is pretty basic in Yip Man chi sao. As to whether
poon sao is recent- lets not go there. Lots of opinions are passed as history. As to whether people
look similar in their wing chun when they come from a school--- that depends. Little personal
reactions can show up but if someone has been at it for a while--- it pretty well shows what was there up stream.

[Sihing73]

Hi Joy,

The martial arts are full of examples of people changing or modifying things to suit thier needs. Bagua is a good example as many of the masters taught by prescription based on the students needs and abilities. I think Yip Man taught things based on the same things. Look at WSL for example. I remember a story of two students going to Yip Man and asking which student was performing a technique correctly. His response was that both were correct as both were performing the "same" technique according to what worked best for them.

I have found over the years that Wing Chun is a full system and has most, if not all that one may need. Still, if I were to fight a grappler having an understanding of grappling would be useful. If you look to the past you will find that many "masters" gained a foundation in a system but then explored other styles and incorporated what suited their needs. The key is to incorporate things based on the very fundamentals you refer to. To say that someone who has made additions or changes to the art did not fully understand the "fundementals" is not always fair. While it may be true in some instances, others may bring things into the art from exploring other things. If nothing more than a better understanding of their own art and how to pass it on.


Let me take this a little further; you stated that Chi Sau is pretty basic in Yip Man Wing Chun. Okay, fair enough. Now please explain to me why there are so many variations in how to perform this Chi Sau depending on the lineage branching from the same root. Keep in mind that no one method is necessarily inferior nor superior. Now if each instructor took the "fundementals" he was taught and adapted them to his or her own body type and circumstances/needs why so much variation? Some do Chi Sau with a great deal of forward pressure some with a very light touch. Some have a subtle back adn forth motion etc. Yet if each came from the same root why so much variation? My first Wing Chun Sifu was of the samelineage as you (Augustine Fong), Roy Undem. I am sure his approach and yours would be quite different ;) as he initially trained in Hung Gar yet both do Wing Chun based on the same fundemental instruction.

Look at it this way also, what if I trained in Yip Man Wing Chun and then had the chance to explore another lineage, say Sum Nungs. Would my taking something I liked from that line and incorporating it into my method hurt my Wing Chun or show a lack of fundemental understanding? If I chose to add the "Bamboo" dummy to my curriculum would that be a bad thing or a good thing? Could it even help deepen my understanding of the core arts and the fundementals you refer to? What about the "pole" or "knife" dummies?

While I still agree that Chi Sau with a partner is the best approach and will obtain the best results, there is still the issue of what to do with people without access to a partner. Do you tell them to give up on Wing Chun because you need a partner for Chi Sau? Or, do you help them to find an alternative which will fill the void until they find a partner. Admittedly, there will be errors and mistakes to be corrected but at least they begin to explore the idea of sensitivity and the basic motions. Besides, what about all the people who don't do Chi Sau, are they lacking in fundementals? ;)

I am sorry but I don't see a fundemental problem with adding something that will improve my performance in Wing Chun. Whether that be weight training, nutrition which I don't practice anyhow :( or a new piece of equipment. Nothing is perfect. If you train on the jong, which is an "accepted" training device, you can train just as poorly as on any "new" device created. The key to any changes will be based on your instruction in the first place. If you were trained well then you will be able to add as you need, or not.

Peace,

Dave

[joy chaudhuri]

Hi Dave:I am not sure of the mechanics of snipping and posting on this list atleast- not quite.My attempt to respond ended up reforwarding your own post a little while ago! So I try again.
Firstly, I am responding to your post and NOT the original posters post. Secondly, all kinds of individuation in teaching can occur.BUT- If someone leaves out chi sao or substitutes an inanimate object for chi sao of course they can do that-its a free country- but I wouldnt CALL it wing chun chi sao anymore atleast not good Yip man wing chun.And one can have good and even corrective exercise regimens and it need not be wing chun.
Re. one of your comments-
I dont know how much Roy Undem learned and how much he taught you and I have no comment on your refernce to him..no offense intended here.
Often some passing anecdote about Yip man reverberates around into a generalised statement about Yip Man's approach to wing chun. Without specific contexts and comparable first person observations...the "yes-yes". "i could be lying"
and giving different answers to different people are just same old same old anecdotes elevated to a general perspective and trivializes serious discussion of Yip Man wing chun. As to why there are differences in wing chun- why not? Not everyone learned the same amount or put in the same amount of time or received the same amount of instruction from the same person. Also chi sao is a lab- some lab experiments work out others dont.And not alllab students may have done well in the regular classes.And in every subject a student's notes vary even though the subject remains the same. George Harrison received sitar lessons from ravi Shankar... but is George Harrison's sitar playing notable in sitar circles- No!The depth and duration of apprenticeship is missing there and in many "conceptual" subjects as well. Sure there are differences in chi sao :does that mean that they are all co equal in importance....decidely not IMO.Sure people can do whatever they wish but if the foundations of Yip man's wing chun are not there
people could readily call it something else other than Yip man wing chun. Not everyone can be a Leung Jan or Yip Man. Sure, a MA genius can one day improve something fundamental in wing chun.
But genius in good subjects are not easy to come by.. Slicing out chi sao and still improving wing chun
as an art(not generalised fighting) effectively would take such a genius.((apart from ignorance on snip and paste on the list program I dont know how to apply spell check without going back and forth with WORD etc.))Cheers.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I took the liberty of deleting the repetive post of mine.

To be honest I don't see anything for use to argue over. My entire point was that Jeff made a posting regarding, what appears to me, a genuine interest in developing his Wing Chun to a higher level. He admits to not having easy access to a partner and was inquiring about substitutes for a Chi Sau partner. While it is always better to ahve a partner, my point is that he is not alone and sometimes it is better to have something rather than nothing. Of course, in the past one could actually improve their Chi Sau by proper performance of the SNT. One does need a partner and it is possible to learn bad habits even with a partner. So one is faced with the sad truth that Chi Sau should be experieinced under the guidance of a competent instructor. I agree that it could be likened to a laboratory and sometimes there is more than one way to accomplish the same goals. Not all roads run together yet some end up in the same place.

I still sympathize with Jeff and would favor using something rather than nothing. I would be intrigued by the idea of a spring dummy and can see some benefits to using one. The key is to understand the possible detriments and take them into consideration as well. I await the future and the emergence of others more skilled than I and can hardly wait to see what modifications, if any, they bring to the system.

As to my reference to Roy, nothing was meant other than to place a reference point that he and you both came from the same source. Of course, a lot would be dependent on the length of time spent with that source. You and I may consider ourselves lucky in having both access to instructors and the time to devote to training. Others may not be so lucky. Of course, access does not always equate with skill ;) as those who train with me can attest :D Still, I know what it is like to not have easy access to training and I understand and appluad Jeff's desire and innovation in trying to progress within the system. If he can utilize some type of Chi Sau dummy then all the better. I don't see it as being any worse than learning and having to train on your own with the chance of seeing your Sifu rarely on occassion. In each case you will find ample room for correction.

As to the idea of what does or does not consitute true Yip Man Wing Chun I leave that alone. I find Wing Chun to be highly personal and divergent. I agree with you that the fundementals are the most important, concepts etc. Unfortunately, agreeing as to what those concepts are is sometimes more difficult.

Anyhow, thanks for the input. We kind of got off the subject which is what can be done to help Jeff and others in his situation. Anyone have something constructive to offer?

Peace,

Dave

[joy chaudhuri]

Dave: My reluctance in dealing with Jeff's question is due to a wish of not intensifying the
apparent misunderstanding of what I was saying.
he told me to shut up and I did-out of consideration.
I have worked with people with several different kinds of disabilities, including one person in a wheelchair. I still worked out a touch timing drill -pak sao-tan sao- wu sao- punch drill which he was comfortable with till he moved away. The elements of touch/timing are crucial. Working with
different equipment- including springed equipment can do what we call self timing- improving one's coordination. It still has limitations on self defense without touch timing... working only with
the speed back in boxing is a crude parallel.

[Sihing73]

Hi Joy,

I believe I understand where you are coming from. I don't think we are as far apart on this as it might seem. Once again I agree that Chi Sau with a partner is the optimum and should be done whevever possible. Absent that, one does what one can.

I am reminded of a story about a karate master who was closing his school. He had become saddened with the attitude and dedication of his students and had decided to close his doors and stop teaching. One day a young man came into his school and asked if he could practice there until the building was sold. The master said yes and as he was cleaning up he observed the young man training. The first thing he noticed was the intensity of the exercise. The young man put his entire being into each movement. The master noticed some minor errors and stepped over and corrected them. Then went back to observing. This went on for a short time and the master finally asked where the young man had learned. The young man sheepishly replied that he had learned mostly from books. He had come into the masters school several years back but been unable to afford lessons. Still wanting to learn he went out and bought books on the art and trained on his own. The master thought about this and realized the student, though having erros, had learned quite a bit and showed a tremendous amount of dedication. He also wondered at what point he had put money above the teaching of the art. He decided to resume teaching and work with the young man to find the proper balance of life and art.

Forgive the bad paraphrase it was many years ago that I read that. But, I think it helps to illustrate the point that if one trains hard most obstacles can be overcome. Even lack of accessible instructors.

Peace,

Dave

[whippinghand]

I am not saying that "there is no room to improvise or add anything to aid in the study of Wing Chun".

What I'm saying is that chi sau, put simply, is an exercise intended to help one understand another person's intention as well as one's own. That cannot be achieved with an inanimate object.
Plain and simple.

You can attempt to achieve as close to an actual person as possible, by created a device that has spring arms, sure. But what kind of understandings will be developed with chi sau in mind. Not realistic ones.

As for the dummy, though he may not quite understand the significance of the mook jong, applying techniques to it, with the understanding that it is a trunk that just stands there, will not affect his Wing Chun as negatively as "chi sau" with springing arms.

[Sihing73]

Hi WH,

Okay, I can agree that one should do Chi Sau with a live person and that no training "device" can fully replace that. However, given the fact that some may not have a partner to train with, the idea of a "spring" type of "Chi Sau" dummy may be able to fill part of the void. Sure it will never take the place of a person and will not allow one to experieince the full range of energy found within the arena of Chi Sau, but it can still be, IMHO, better than nothing.

I can appreciate the concern over developing bad habits or unrealistic energies but consider the alternative of developing nothing. Kind of a catch 22 ;) FWIW, I don't have a spring dummy but they do look like they could be fun :p I would be itnerested in checking back with someone who used such a device and see what improvements or problems developed after a period of time, say six months.

Peace,

Dave

[whippinghand]

No habit is better than a bad one.