Benny Meng Uncovers Wing Chun HIstory.

[panos]

I saw an article in kung-fu magazine about Benny Meng finding the real roots of wing chun. I don't doubt the results of his research, since the the story about Ng mui is considered fake from other masters too (leung ting f.e.). Two things bother me thought. The huge pictures of Benny Meng, and the small parts of text inside them. Looked like an adnertisement of his, not an article. And then his moves. Excuse me but what is this guy doing? Is it only me that find them kind of akward;

[reneritchie]

Benny Meng is doing Hung Fa Yi in the article. You can find out more at his web page (http://vtmuseum.org). Magazines like big, bright pictures because that's what sells issues and, hopefully for them, attracts people to buy the tapes and other products they offer. Wushun/Kung-Fu has been ahead of the curve on trying out new ideas (in terms of layout, design, mood, etc.)

Rgds,

RR

[This message was edited by GeneChing on 11-08-01 at 11:26 AM.]

[reneritchie]

Although in Wing Tsun Kuen, Leung Ting sifu seemed unconvinced by the stories of Ng Mui, in Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun (his latest), he seems firmly behind the story again.

There is more information available to the general public now, including lineages such as Fung Siu-Ching (with their stories of Jee Shim), Pan Nam(with accounts of Tan Sao Ng), Cho Ga (with stories of Mui Shun), and others, more people looking into the history, including the Foshan Wing Chun Association, the Ving Tsun Museum, and several independants such as myself, and many interesting theories being proposed. Hopefully this will continue and some sense of the more likely possibilities will eventually emerge.

Rgds,

RR

[edward]

ng mui was a chick..... geeeeez, this is such b.s. changing history....yipman's generation said it was a chick, 1st and 2nd generation say its a chick... but our generation... who is the furthest from the time line is changing the story...yeah right..

[azwingchun]

I was always taught and believe the Ng Mui history, though I guess the big thing now is that there isn't any proof. I have just a opinion on all the changes of Wing Chun history and various different lineages. Believing just for a moment that the Ng Mui story is fact. I was taught that Ng Mui had originally got together with the other four masters and actually began developing Wing Chun and before it was finished the temple was burned and the five masters all went into hiding in different areas of China. Well, if this is true, could it not be that each had somewhat taken on the the roll of finishing thier Wing Chun and now we have several lineages?

I have also been told that beyond Leung Jan that this is kinda where the Wing Chun history is lost. Though I find it hard to believe that Leung Jan or any other techers beyond him would have lied about thier lineage to close students. Does what I am saying make sense to anyone else?

Due to the above statements I have made I don't doubt that there are several lineages of Wing Chun, though history seems to show even myths have some sense of truth to them. ;)

[chi-kwai]

...but i have a hard time accepting that five masters worked in conjuction to create an art which they agreed upon so closely that the five separate lineages which are recognizable as the same art.

Lets be a bit conservative and say wing chun was created 180 years ago. Lets also say that for each of the five masters, each had two students move on to be sifus 15 years later. thats 60 sifu in five lineages, not to mention all of the other students. That is a minimum of 60 interperations of the same thing if all interperetations were static and the ideas of the sifu did not change from the point he started teaching until he takes his last student. (this last point is obviously not realistic considering how much disagreement occurs even on this board.)

Wing chun is very widely practiced, and whether or not the exponent or sifu is proficient, it is still being touted as wing chun and the elements of the art, muddled or not, are still there. If there was one origin, this would make sense. If there were five origins, this would be highly unlikely, though similar divergent lines could be a possible explanation: southern white crane comes to mind.

--
chi kwai

[reneritchie]

If you're not that interested in the history, then just take what is passed down from your lineage and enjoy it. Beyond fact or fiction, it is part of the rich culture of the art, full of symbolism and allegory and can help motivate some and give a sense of time and place to others.

If you're interested, I recommend doing some research in Chinese history proper, see what was going on in China during the rise of WCK (Taiping Rebellion, Red Turban Revolt, etc.), investigate parallel histories of the opera and the societies (where the reasons for apocryphal temples, fabled ancestors, and historical ambiguities are explained and put into context), and then decide for yourself.

Rgds,

RR

[Steven T. Richards]

Interesting that some people are accepting that diversity is the life essence of a martial art over time. In my Pai (Lee-Yin-Sing, Jook-Lum SPM) I proposed a 'Darwin's Mantis's' model, taken from Charles Darwin's observations on the diversification of species (Finches) originally from the same stock (root) and now developed through localised adaptation across several generations into something approaching separate species.

This is the norm in biology and also in human culture as any academic biologist, anthropologist or historian will know. Such thinking isn't always welcome within TCMA however, particularly it seems amongst some westerners.

Origin myths - such as those found in any time served TCMA (for example WC or indeed SPM)are culturally legitimised naratives passed on to establish lineage and in some cases claims to seniority either within or between branches.

The same dynamics are found in any culture or sub-culture.

Martial arts anthropologists study these origin myths and narratives, but, they also study 'form' as this equates with the cultural genotype of the system in question. A biological species gene pool changes over time but retains some long-standing characteristics that have proven useful and adaptive. Biological mutations can occur spontaneously - many of them will fail to be adaptive, but, some will prove to be superirior (adaptively speaking) and will survive into future generations. It's the same with MA. Just as with competition for survival in biology, you get the same dynamics at work between the 'old' and the 'newer' in TCMA.

At a cultural level this leads to the sadly normal politicking that we see each and every day in TCMA.

It is useful therefore to look at what can be established as historical fact (given the deletion and distortion techniques employed to exaggerate legitimacy that arises from political ambitions on the part of individuals or groups), then, analyse 'form' and the cultural origin myths. It's interesting what comes thru clearly when these methods are applied.

as a very simple non TCMA example, consider the known relationship between Korean TKD and Japanese Karate. Even without a knowledge of 'history' an observer could tell that the two systems where in close cross - fertilising contact at some point in time due to their similarity of form. The similarities betweeen the two are actually greater than the differences, even though definite differences do exist.

It's refreshing to read open debate and to find people who are interested in truth as oposed to dogma.

Many thanks.