The White tiger and white eyebrow systems

[kung fu fighter]

Has anyone had experience with the White tiger system and what was it like. I heard that it suppose to contain the essence of the wing chun system plus much more since it's creator Fung Doe Duk was the eldist of the five elders and was responsible for teaching the other 4 Ng Mui, Pak mei, Chi sim, and miu shun.

Also is it true that the Bak mei style was designed to take advantage of the inherit weaknesses of the wing chun system?

[kung fu fighter]

Has anyone had experience with the White tiger system and what was it like. I heard that it suppose to contain the essence of the wing chun system plus much more since it's creator Fung Doe Duk was the eldist of the five elders and was responsible for teaching the other 4 Ng Mui, Pak mei, Chi sim, and miu shun.

Also is it true that the Bak mei style was designed to take advantage of the inherit weaknesses of the wing chun system?

[kung fu fighter]

Has anyone had experience with the White tiger system and what was it like. I heard that it suppose to contain the essence of the wing chun system plus much more since it's creator Fung Doe Duk was the eldist of the five elders and was responsible for teaching the other 4 Ng Mui, Pak mei, Chi sim, and miu shun.

Also is it true that the Bak mei style was designed to take advantage of the inherit weaknesses of the wing chun system?

[David Jamieson]

Wing Chun is Snake and Crane styles of kungfu essentially and is a distillation of sil lum kungfu.
There has been a lot of looking into this style recently.
In practice, There isn't much if any tiger in it as far as application or stylistic moves go.

there are some white eyebrow practitioners here on this forum, i don't know if they make a correlation to white tiger style though.

as for teh legends of the 10 tigers, five ancestors, five elders etc etc. These are highly embellished and really don't have much to do with the realities of Kungfu practice in the here and now.

[Hendrik]

Has anyone had experience with the White tiger system and what was it like. I heard that it suppose to contain the essence of the wing chun system plus much more since it's creator Fung Doe Duk was the eldist of the five elders and was responsible for teaching the other 4 Ng Mui, Pak mei, Chi sim, and miu shun.

Also is it true that the Bak mei style was designed to take advantage of the inherit weaknesses of the wing chun system?


sound like a great hongkong shaws brother movies plot. :D

[Dale Dugas]

Kung Fu Fighter,

The Bak Fu Pai kung fu system is a family art which is headed by Jung Shee Doo Wai. He is located in Southern California. The system does not contain the essence of Wing Chun, it is a system that legend says developed alongside of Wing Chun's legendary founder.

Mew Hing, Fung Doe Duk, Ng Mui, Jee Shim, and Bak Mei were the elders mentioned in the legends. Bak Fu Pai is similar to Bak Mei in certain ways, but in many other ways it is different. IMO it has much more hei gong/ qi gong development than Bak Mei or Wing Chun.

You can go to Http://whitetigerkungfu.com for more information. You can contact Shifu Dan LaRochelle who opertates the site for more info as well.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[couch]

Has anyone had experience with the White tiger system and what was it like. I heard that it suppose to contain the essence of the wing chun system plus much more since it's creator Fung Doe Duk was the eldist of the five elders and was responsible for teaching the other 4 Ng Mui, Pak mei, Chi sim, and miu shun.

Also is it true that the Bak mei style was designed to take advantage of the inherit weaknesses of the wing chun system?

There's a lot of controversy (of course...) about where White Tiger came from.

http://www.pakmei.net/articles/article.asp?ID=13

So maybe that White Tiger came from White Brow, but who cares nowadays.

To answer your second question, being best friends with a Bak Mei practicioner, I think that Bak Mei and Wing Chun have a lot of common. And the only apparent difference is that in (my lineage of Wing Chun) Wing Chun leans back or stands straight and we develop the 'ging' or whipping power from the ground-up or from turning the hips, etc.

Bak Mei gets there whipping power from arching the back. Other than that, my friend likes to take the centre, control the elbow and kick a$$.

I think the systems have a lot in common and both are very effective.

my 2 cents,
sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik

[sihing]

I don't have any real hands on experience with Bak Mei White Eyebrow/Tiger systems, just read up on it in books and magazines, but we did have one student that was a Bak Mei practitioner and I did meet another practiticoner that came into the school curious about Wing Chun. From the two of them I got the impression that they could have easily adapted to the Wing Chun structure and concepts with some practice, and there were some similarities for sure. Since both are Southern Shaolin Styles this is bound to be the case.

James

[NeedsPractice]

Is white Tiger a southern close range style like wing chun?

[BaguaMonk]

I am also heavily interested in both of these styles. In a way I guess you could say Bak Mei could be used for Wing Chung, since its angles of attack are made to break the centerline.

White Tiger is very fast and explosive from what I've seen, and uses a hunched back, as well as sinking/risking movements. Both aren't as watered-down as alot of the other kung fu styles because they are more rare, and slightly well guarded. Bak Mei has a reputation of still being taught as a very efficient, deadly fighting form, From what I've seen there is alot of Pheonix fists attacks to vital points. There is alot of chi gong practice, and intense physical form practice as well.

White Tiger, in form, practice, is some of the fastest punches I've ever seen. I don't know much about the styles, but they are advandced, and focus alot on the internal aspects of striking.

[Brad]

I really don't like the bit I've seen of BFP (the grandmaster likes to BS a lot on the internet too), but BM looks strong. BFP doesn't apear to have much (if anything) to do with Wing Chun, and I think it more closely resembles some Emei kungfu that I've seen. Quick hand work (with vital point striking) and lots of wierd qigong stuff. White Tiger also seems to have an unusual amount of looney frauds floating around claiming to teach the system, so make sure the school is actually white tiger if you come across a place teaching it.

I used to have a video of a Bak Mei form, and the guy looked pretty strong. That's about all I remember of it though :p

[tsefreeflow]

There is a new Futshan Bakm Mei DVD out now! Goto this site if you would like to see about it:

www.komudokwan.com/FutshanBakMeiPai.htm

[Turiyan]

Has anyone had experience with the White tiger system and what was it like. I heard that it suppose to contain the essence of the wing chun system plus much more since it's creator Fung Doe Duk was the eldist of the five elders and was responsible for teaching the other 4 Ng Mui, Pak mei, Chi sim, and miu shun.

Also is it true that the Bak mei style was designed to take advantage of the inherit weaknesses of the wing chun system?

They have their own "version" of wing chun and other styles. However, if you know about the meditations. The jings from those are meant to "power up" the forms. I have seen doo wai perform and do some fighting and training forms. My opinion is that they only learn forms in a very odd and stilted manner and then power them up with jing force from meditations.

There are meditations for a fast spasm like reflex and quick reflexes. Ect. One has to understand a certain type of arrogance they have. How could any pure wing chun fighter think he can compare to a BFP student that does 2-3 types of jing development and knows the same moves?

[Turiyan]

Is white Tiger a southern close range style like wing chun?

I've seen some of the bfp core forms and training forms and to tell you the truth they are a joke. Silly at best. The only thing resembling wing chun is the dim mak forms which doo wai said himself "better than wing chun". I think the way doo wai performs is meant eaither as 1) a joke 2) so if someone takes the material and shows it to others he could just say "Its obvious I was just messing around, I concealed the real jing/power". Like when they lied and said some forms were only training forms. And that fighting forms start with salutes. But the footage of "training forms" they all have salutes (?).

[Dale Dugas]

T,

The only thing that is a joke is you thought people would not remember you and the stick boy body you have. I would take it to heart that learning how to faht ging/Fa Jing properly is better than typing out a million gazillion posts on the net about training or calling other systems a joke.

You have absolutley no experience to judge GM Doo Wai and by not using an honorific when you speak about a senior master of CMA is downright rude when you look to Wu De/Mo Duk. You would think with all the witty little quotes you sign after your name you would be a little more about bringing your A game to the Chinese martial arts forum.

Those of us inside the gate know who you bought your material from and he is best ignored as he is nothing but the wind coming out of his own behind. You want to mimic that??

All these little boys who hide behind anonymous names. When you going to learn to step up? You want to call systems jokes, than compare them to something. How about your Mongolian Warrior Caste system of death?? Put your site back up so we can all laugh.

Good to see you back on the forum.

In Quincy,

Dale Dugas

[NeedsPractice]

When I said southern close range system like wing chun I meant a southern close range system they way southern mantis, bak mei, wing chun are all southern close range systems but NOT the same.

[Waxoff]

The difference between the Bak Mei system and the Wing Chun system is that, BM is an internal art. Bak Mei has a heavier hand and their punches are explosive, using Fa Jing. Wing Chun uses trap hands and are lighter for speed. As far as Bak Mei being simular to the White Tiger, we do use some Tiger Jows. I am not familiar enough with the White Tiger system to make any furthe comments about the differences.

[NeedsPractice]

What about in comparison to southern mantis, and other southern close range styles?

Also wing chun is internal,( not to the extent of the xing yi baugua etc) not everybody learns that, ALOT of variations in skill, practice and ability out there.

Anyway this thread wasnt about wing chun, in comparison to bak mei

but BaK MEI TO WHITE TIGER

[Dale Dugas]

Bak Mei/Bai Mei is a little "harder" in their application of faht ging/fa jing. They(Bak Mei) also do more with reverse breathing than most systems to build up a lot of energy to smash people with.

Bak Fu Pai(White Tiger Style) is a little softer in training their ging as well as being a little more sensitive when it comes to crossing hands or using certain bridge arms/hands. The breathing in Bak Fu is natural with certain techniques used to harness the hei gong.

Both are related historically as the founders of both were blood brothers before splitting up and going to various parts of China to hide from the fascist gov't men. But then again that could be a total crock. Both systems are short frame forms of martial arts which are similar to Lung Ying Pai(Dragon Shape Style) as well Nam Tong Long Pai. Elbows are held close into the body, usually an elbows width away. Stances are short and natural compared to the double shoulder width Ma Bu of Bei Sui Lum/Bei Shaolin. Feet are shoulder width apart and kept on the ground, not much jumping or flying around in Bak Mei, Jook Lum, Chow Gar or other related systems.

Wing Chun is internal as you must train the Yi in order to get your Chi Sau and other techniques to a higher level. Good body mechanics means Good internal. Doesnt mean you have to sit on your a r s e and meditate and dream your way into having internal power. Way too many of those fuzzy bunnies running around here and abroad. They make the MA a joke. But that is another thread in and of itself.

Bak Fu has layers of training as well as having a well developed Dit Da Ke(traumatology treatment). GM Doo Wai has some formulae that are very powerful without resorting to illegal herbs or animal ingredients. I have used them and can attest that they do what they are meant to do.

Hope this helps. Oh, if T-boy spouts off about anything, ignore him. He knows nothing.

In Quincy,

Dale Dugas

[NeedsPractice]

thanks for the info. I saw a bak mei guy do a form once at a tournament a couple years ago but thats it, there is a school here in nyc but I never checked them out.

[Waxoff]

Anyway this thread wasnt about wing chun, in comparison to bak mei

but BaK MEI TO WHITE TIGER

Hey NP - The orginal poster asked if Bak Mei was develop to take advantage of the weaknesses of Wing Chun. My reply was expressing the difference between the two styles from my experience. No need to get so literal, am I wasting your time?

As far as comparing the White Tiger system to Bak Mei. If the WTS does not concentrate on developing the internal to FA JING, then it would not be simuliar to Bak Mei.

Mr. Dugas seems to be familiar with all three styles, thanks for sharing.

[NeedsPractice]

Attention WAXOFF

As you should well know on kung fu forum every post and thread is twisted, distorted and turned into a controversy, so after a few posts the original post is forgotten.
THat being said I forgot what the original post was and APOLOGISE.

Now was wing chun so formidable that a style had to be created to beat it?
If I was a wing chun guy with a big ego I would feel pretty impressed.
Since I am a wing chun guy without the ego, I doubt it.

Good thread keep the info coming. No disrespect intended to ANYONE.

[NeedsPractice]

Also if the wing chun stylist doesnt develop alot of qualities not just the internal they may as well do karate, or hapkido. Getting the internal is the icing on the cake. But back to bai mei

[Waxoff]

NP - I agree and I am also guilty of forgetting sometime where a thread may take off to. Thanks for sharing your Wing Chun experiences.

I believe many styles were created to confront other formidable styles. I am not sure if Bak Mei was one of them. My experiences exchanging Chi Sao techqiues with Wing Chun practitioners, are as mention on my privious post. I feel Bak Mei hands are heavier from our Jing development and our punch is more expolsive. As for speed Wing Chun hands are some of the quickest I have experienced. The Bak Mei stance is totally the opposite of Wing Chun. We swallow our chest and have a forward lean, while Wing Chun has more of an upright posture.

I stand corrected, as Mr. Dugas mentioned Wing Chun Chi Sao involves using YI to lead, which is certainly an internal concept and skill.

Does any White Tiger practiioners have any experiences with Wing Chun or Bak Mei, that they would like to share?

[antoine9891]

I've seen some of the bfp core forms and training forms and to tell you the truth they are a joke. Silly at best. The only thing resembling wing chun is the dim mak forms which doo wai said himself "better than wing chun". I think the way doo wai performs is meant eaither as 1) a joke 2) so if someone takes the material and shows it to others he could just say "Its obvious I was just messing around, I concealed the real jing/power". Like when they lied and said some forms were only training forms. And that fighting forms start with salutes. But the footage of "training forms" they all have salutes (?).

I believe that you are foolishly comparing wingchun and white tiger kungfu. If a white tiger practitioner is proficient he can defeat a wingchun artists. The skills are nothing alike and they compliment each other. A wingchun practitioner can also defeat a white tiger artist as Yip Man did. The arts are related from the time they were first made.

White tiger's creator was the elder of the group and therefore the art would be more refined and contain many skills that a wingchun artist would know very little about. Yet, the art of wingchun was created by all five of these masters solely to destoy all other shaolin arts that were learned by the manchurians.

Each master gave his or her very best to create wingchun. Todays wingchun lacks the jings of the white tiger, the Zen, and Tao. The only skill most wingchun practitioners will practice is the suttle destruction of ng mui.
Wingchun does not lake faJing, or power. Power is hidden within the body movements.

There are no tiger strikes in wingchun because they are not necessary and they would violate the fighting theories of the style. Bak Mei, dragon, white crane, and many other styles are closely related to the 5 masters and the history is very important in learning to use the correct intent in each art.

We should not be fighting as traitors, but learning from one another.

[Dale Dugas]

you register and post on a thread that is over 2 years old?

welcome to KFO

[antoine9891]

Yes, this thread got my attention... I've been gathering information on the cause and effect of the creation of wingchun since I practice it and that's where I began to learn about the other styles that were created by the 5 elders. After learning more about them I've come to understand that we all share diffrent qualities and attributes in our styles. Yet they are all totally diffrent when practiced. I am very interested in Bak Mei and Bak fu Pai. Bak Mei was labeled as a traitor yet when looking further into history he had no choice. His style of fighting was on a very high level, enough to defeat many. Bak fu pai I know very little about until a couple months ago. I do see that the GM has great Chi. Dragon style was created by ng mui and generates power from the waist. This style in its higher levels can simply avoid blocking strikes altogether tiring the opponent. It seems to be known for its power. Southern mantis is known for its dim mak and Iron shirt techniques. A fight with this practitioner will almost certainly lead to death according to record. Yet we are all martial brothers. And could learn many skills from each other.

Instead we argue about who could defeat who. If any of these styles fought each other, because they have similar beginnings.... they would kill each other.

[Dale Dugas]

what is your name? as I hate internet nicknames.

Where do you live as I know many shifu and can direct you to a school where you might learn what you seek.

I do not agree with you about these arts. The arts have nothing to do with skills as that is what the person learning them has to inject into the equation to make them work. The arts themselves do nothing it is the person who applies them. Someone who trains more and trains for real will have better skills than someone who does not.

You seem a bit naive about the Mo Duk/Wu De brotherhood speech. Of course that is what we expect from each other but that is not reality.

[Dale Dugas]

Again I ask what is your name and where are you located.

I can help you if I know where you live.

Personally I also like to know with whom I am talking.

[Yum Cha]

Rated: 2.1

[NeedsPractice]

the biggest part of the equation is whatever style you learn are you really learning?

1- does the person teaching you actually know the correct stuff?
2- if the person who is teaching you knows the correct stuff are you they actually showing it to you?
3- finally if being taught the correct stuff by a person who knows the stuff are you really practicing?

without those 3 things its all just stories,ego,politics with years wasted.

[meltdawn]

yo Dale! nice to see Steve Cotter in your list of links. i've been a fan of kettle bells for about 3 years and my bjj sifu in HK just got certified through Steve. that dude could be considered a freak of nature, unless one actually learns kettlebells!

other than that, i think some of these styles people like to compare against LUNG YING, PAK MEI, and WING CHUN must be scrutinized. don't grant lineage when it isn't due. pak mei is tied bloodwise to dragon before Lam and Cheung so anything beyong this is suspect in my opinion. and the more i find out in this regard, the more i will commit to my memoirs, heh. i f'in HATE to see Hakka Tiu performed outside HAKKA arts. sorry, sidetraked there, but maybe SOMEONE was readin it.

egos and politics are for kung fu men. nobody wants to be number 2. so, we keep arguing about who and what is the best. and when we do fight, all hell breaks lose and nobody really finds out anyways because knives and and guns don't need skill to kill.

if you want to prove it, do it in a sporting ring and disassociate yourself from a true lineage or find yourself outside the ring trying to see if you really do have guts and kung fu. and that's why our HAKKA arts are dying out or becoming washed out. sad but true.

[Dale Dugas]

I agree with you about the fu. Way too many people are mouthboxers and never prove that they any skills at all.

Steve is a friend and also a great source of knowledge on Kettlebells and martial arts. Both of which I train... Love my big iron balls....:eek::D