Should you avoid using fakes on the street?

[phantom]

Many people claim that it is a good idea not to use fakes on the street. What do you think about this? Thanks in advance.

[Universal Stance]

I think you can use fakes if you have that attacker on the defensive. But if an attacker sees that you can take him (thus being on the defensive), he'd probably run. If you're on the defensive then definitely not.

I take a Universal Stance regarding the Martial Arts.

"**** it's cold out here to be practicing."

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Your not going to be faking (Mabey your name if the Cops Show) Streetfight is completely different that sparring. There are so many uncontrolable varibles. Prety much Hit , hit and keep hitting untill you drop them. If you fake that is one wasted movement that buddy is ging to react on.

"Life's a great adventure, mate."
Jacko Jackson

[Universal Stance]

But what is faking for? To get open up the opponent's defenses (make him respond) so you can as you say 'Prety much Hit , hit and keep hitting untill you drop them'. You know, act like you're going low, come high.

Again, he has to be on the defensive (as in 'ok, this guy's hits hurts. I have to block every swing from this guy because that hurt).

And yes I've use it in street fights before.

I take a Universal Stance regarding the Martial Arts.

"**** it's cold out here to be practicing."

[JWTAYLOR]

The danger is that they don't respond to a fake, and just focus on hitting you instead. While you are "faking" them, they can be not faking the hit on you.

I say it's not worth the risk.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[This message was edited by Jon Wayne Taylor on 10-19-01 at 11:57 AM.]

[Braden]

I definitely strongly avoid faking at all times (just in case you really do fight like you train). Of course, certainly there's a big place for non-telegraphed attacks and other 'passive deception,' just not 'active deception' like fakes. I also often 'feed' the opponent something in order to cause a response; but the feed is a legitimate attack. Faking just seems like wasted movement; and I prefer a reactive approach (or a feed and react approach) - which isn't as bad as it sounds, since if someone is really trying to attack you, they'll usually bridge for you (whereas if they're not intent on attacking you, why not just diffuse the situation or leave, rather than fight?) Or if you have to attack someone for some reason and they don't know you're attacking them; there's no need to fake, just smack them around from behind.

That said, I've seen fakes used in real fights before, and train to fight against such techniques.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

You da Man! Your advice is always highly regarded. Oh yeah I love the belt buckle thing and have been wering one since. A big Devil head and it's got some weight to it, enough to split someones skull if need be. Good on ya bro

"Life's a great adventure, mate."
Jacko Jackson

[nightair]

I only fake when there is absolutly no opening.Most street fights I've been in the guy suddenly calms down when he sees I know me than he thought I did about fighting.But I'm 6 foot 200 lbs. so most people leave me alone.

DOH!!

[Dragon Warrior]

good question, i was thinking about this to.
what is the point of faking in a street fight, if the opponent doesnt respond to the fake.

Faking would be a good idea if your opponent is intimidated by you, probably because you landed a solid technique on him.

One technique that i think would be good to use is to throw a couple low leg roundhouse kicks, after about 2 or 3 your opponent may think you are throwing it again to his thigh, and of course fake and strike the head with the kick. This works all the time in sparring, and im sure it would work in a street fight.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Daniel Madar]

Why use a fake when you can break his guard and follow up more effectively?

Merciless is Mercy.

[shinwa]

don;t know what kind of fights you guys have been in but I see no reason to disregard faking. I find that rather absurd. Why are you training martial arts if you aren't gonna use what you know. A fake isn't always necessary, but don't throw out strategy just because you're on the street. It's all about flow and what you need for a certain opponent. just attack, attack attack is straight out sloppy and a waste of energy. Don't let your opponent draw you into his style of fighting, just because he is wild doesn't mean you have to have wild reactions.

I fake, it works. Noone wants to get hit. if you shyoot a hane out at a face medium speed your opponent will more than likely evade that attack openeing himself up for others, like a low line kick or something. Faking is an important element of fighting and believe me when I say it wasn't created for nothing.

PS-Street fighters are often overrated in martial artscircles. Contrary to popular belief they aren't fighting machines who magically counter techniques just because they happen to be high or circular.

[Universal Stance]

Sorry but if you hit a guy to the point he thinks he needs to block EVERY swing at him, he's falling for the fake.

I did say if he is on the defensive and practically running from you. And yes bigger guys can be scared too.

Nobody ever listens to me :rolleyes: .

I take a Universal Stance regarding the Martial Arts.

"**** it's cold out here to be practicing."

[shinwa]

Just the fact that you spar gives you an advantage over your average fighter. Most people dont train to fight or think about fighting strategies. They think 'I'm gonna beat his ass'. That's not a strategy, that's emotionally driven bullsi*.' Please don't belittle your training by not using what you know.

[Braden]

I'm not belittling my training. I don't train to use fakes and I don't use them.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

when asked this by one of my class mates my pervious teacher said that faking is fine as long as the fake is a real attack.

if you want to divert their attention, fine, but would if that fake strike could have landed. if you want to hit low, hit high first. if the first strike negates your second deal with it. everything changes in the moment and you have to adapt and flow.

where's my beer?

[Ryu]

Depends on how the fight starts I think.
Most of that stuff is not "dueling" and someone is right close to you, or just suddenly punches or grabs you. There is no time to fake per se.

However if you have distance from you, and you fake to kick or fake to double leg, etc. you might pull it off.
But like someone else said, I kind of like to make the fake a real attack. When I clinch I try to double up on the jab sometimes and move in. I don't fake it because he might not respond and hit me as I come in. If I actually throw real jabs he has to deal with them, and gives me some safer time to get a hold of him.

........... then throw him with Chinese BJJ and run! :D

sorry couldn't resist.
But the above stuff is serious.

Ryu

http://www.kfccinema.com/news/12/zu2-05.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Tigerstyle]

I think using the term "set-up" might be better than "fake". A set-up can involve a real attack that also attempts to provoke a reaction. If the opponent doesn't "buy" the set-up, then he/she gets hit with it.


JWT,
Oh no! You have groupies now!!! :eek:
(j/k Hot Shot)

[wufupaul]

I would never use a fake in a streetfight, I don't like the thought of giving my attacker an opportunity to hit me. I've never had time to use a fake in a streetfight, I have always just jumped in and not given them a chance to counterattack, :) I saw tons of streetfights growing up, and I saw very few fakes. I can only recall one time where it worked, but the guy didn't even need to fake. These two guys got into a standoff, the bigger guy faked a right to the little guy, the little guy kinda cowered and put his hands up, and the big guy pounded him with hooks until some people broke it up. When I did see other fakes, the other person either stepped back, or they rushed them and beat them down. The only times that I have ever used fakes are during push hands or sparring; in a controlled environment.

In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about
life. IT GOES ON.

[shinwa]

Faking is great. Like um, if you're fighting some one way faster than you and straight attacks don't work, and counters are impossible to pull off, it's time to resort to trickery. They work especially good against hyper-defensive types. Fakes will open up all of the vitals for you, all of the targets.Attacking by draw is the shizat. Let them think you're open or think they have the upperhand and then *PLONK* heh heh.

[jun_erh]

Are we talking about feinting? That's boxing 101. "Most punches are preceded by a feint of some sort" to paraphrase Bruce Lee

[Braden]

"Like um, if you're fighting some one way faster than you and straight attacks don't work, and counters are impossible to pull off, it's time to resort to trickery."

Your conception of real life fighting is clearly much different than mine. For instance, if I was writing the above sentance, I would say "Like um, if you're fighting some one way faster than you and straight attacks don't work, you're screwed."

[Kevin73]

That was a nice quote by Bruce Lee and it sums up EXACTLY what feints/fakes are for...sporting contests with rules. I work in a jail and have seen MANY fights and I have not once seen someone feint or fake. Two reasons 1) it's a waste of energy..why throw a technique if it can't land. If his guard is high and you want to punch him in the nose, then kick him in the knee first so he lowers his guard. 2) Untrained people won't react to a fake, they don't have the cognition to, if you would have thrown the technique more than likely it would have hit them and then they would've responded.

I remember one time I was working with another instructor on a drill from a right punch to the nose, well he started to feint with the right and was going to hit me with his left (without telling me), well as soon as I saw him start to twitch I entered in and took him down just as if he had thrown the punch, again feints only work if you are playing a reactive game, someone who is going to take the initiative will take you apart when you throw that crap.

"God gave you a brain, and it annoys Him greatly when you choose not to use it."

[shinwa]

uh hahahaha. Brtaden how many fights have you been in and how long have you trainbed? So you think all fights are decided by simple attributes?

And a bunch of guys in prison have never thrown feints? maybe because they're brawlers? You guys do realize a fake is BAITING an opponent. you want him to go for the opening because it isn't really an opening at all. It's a trap. And all feints aren't full blown attacks. Something as simple as a quick shout, or shifting your stance, waving an arm, extending an arm etc etc. I find it really hard toi believe people are saying fakes are useless because they were countered before or something. Nothing will ALWAYS work. Do all jabs connect? All kicks? All takedowns? Of course not.

My perception of fighting is not limiting them to my ideals. Anything can happen. What works in one situation won't necessarily work in another. No absolutes here my man.

of course if it isn't part of your personal strategy I'm not knocking ya or anything. But i find it absurd to think that if someone is faster they automatically win heh heh.

[Braden]

"So you think all fights are decided by simple attributes?"

For the most part... I think knowledge of specific techniques takes a distant backseat to simple attributes, although I wouldn't say it is negligible.

[GreyFox81]

I have been in 25 plus street fights through my life from the age of about 11 till now i people do use fakes it has been occasions where someone will fake a left hook and come in with a jab but in about 75 % of my street encounters people will try a fake :(

death doesn't end life i do

[shinwa]

Attributes are important no doubt. And Yah i agree that for the most part they win(talking about general public here) But even if someone is way faster. It takes alot smaller motion to block a punch then throw one.

[straight blast]

Has anyone heard of the Muay Thai footwork called a "Blitz"? That makes an excellent fake. I only like to fake from long range. In a street environment the bad guy usually just charges you and tries to hit you. He's so aggressive he usually doesn't even try to defend, he just wants to hurt YOU. Well that's the way they fight here in Rednecksville Australia. And that's all anyone does on a weekend. Fight.
How many street fights start off like a game of Street Fighter II with both parties squared off at the fighting measure? None that I've seen. Usually it's at point blank range and very aggressive with little technique.
Of course if you're street fighting a MA student then it could be different. A guy I know who does TKD (3rd dan) got his teeth knocked out 'cos he was so busy trying to get back to his kicking range.
I avoid using fakes. They're wasted on Rednecks :D

"Through strength, learn gentleness. Through gentleness, strength will prevail"

[Vankuen]

I think that most martial arts schools fall suspect to training unrealistically.

This is something that comes into play. I have always been taught that feints are considered the tools of the true "fighter". But just as anything else, they have their time and place. A lot of variables come into play when considering this.

As stated numerous times over, most fights happen quickly and viciously. You probably wont have time to feint. The average person, will just attack, and try to hit you. They dont care about all the mess that most martial artists try to account for.

Now on the other hand, if both people have some sort of training, be it advanced or not, they may try to "square off" in which case a feint may be necessary as the person will react differently then the average guy. Bruce Lee used to talk of using feints when two fighters of the same skill level are fighting, direct attacks wouldn't have the same success rate, so often times the indirect attack would be the attack of choice, and feint was a common tool for that.

This has just been my experience with it. The only time in real life I used it was to attack high and low, or vice versa. It he blocked the first he got hit with the second. If he didnt block the first he got hit with both. Win Win situation for me!

I say end it and end it quickly. :D

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

[Ryu]

The real fights I've been in I never had time to feint...I suddenly "realized" I was in a fight, and reacted with grappling skills, etc.

The numerous sparring and challenge stuff I used to do, I feinted on more than one occasion, and it worked. But in reality, I had no time. I could only pick up, slam, or hit.

Ryu

http://www.kfccinema.com/news/12/zu2-05.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Braden]

"But even if someone is way faster..."

You incorrectly assumed one of the basic attributes I alluded to was speed.

[Kevin73]

To Shinwa; at least to me it sounds like you are talking about distractions and set ups NOT feints. Yes, I've used those and seen those..I was referring when you act like your going to jab and half extend it to see if reacts to it and then hit with something else...I have never seen that before except in sporting events.

You're right most fights involve a brawler, just wondering how many street fights have you seen between two highly trained fighters that wasn't a sporting match? The only ones I can think of are when Lennox Lewis and the other guy got in a fight and ended up rolling around on the ground...no feints there. William Cheung and Emil Boetztepe...from what I've heard some hitting and then rolling around...no feints there. A real fight is a brawl no matter the skill level if there are really trying to hurt the other person. If a guy attacks you on the street are you going to try and take him out as fast as you can, or try to get him to react to a feint? Guess what? He's going to be throwing punch after punch and isn't even going to worry about what you did because he's going to pummel you as fast as he can.

"God gave you a brain, and it annoys Him greatly when you choose not to use it."

[shinwa]

Braden I didn't assume anything, I was just making an example.

San*****a-Eh I've been in lots of fights(grew up in a fairly rough neighborhood) and yah people have used fakes on me and vice versa. A fake is a set up. Same thing, same result. Those fights you're talking about are people consumed with emotion so they don't use what they know. Not ALL fights are just some dude attacking you all of a sudden and punching punching punching. Popular sayingin my neighborhood 'We can take this **** outside if you want'. I NEVER said fakes are necessary in every situation, that's ridiculous. I don't think any one technique works in every situation. I say use fakes when you need them. Of course in some cases there will be no time for them. In some cases you can't fight back at all.


What's with the limited views of what happens in a fight?

[Braden]

Again, we've clearly just got very different ideas as to what a fight is. Next time someone asks if you want to take things outside, try answering no. It's much safer than relying on feints.

[shinwa]

Err, I don't rely on any one technique...

[thumper]

is a fake a technique though? or is it an idea that contains however many techniques (or examples of that idea) one can come up with? imho, fakes should be real attacks. the one throwing one is just ready to follow up in the exposed area if dude bites. so if "attacking" is not a technique in itself, and "defending" is not a technique in itself, then "faking" really isn't either. i don't know, just my thoughts. good topic though.

"...either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations..."
- Cannibal Ox

[Kevin73]

To Shinwa: I agree with the using fakes as set ups. I was making a distinction between fakes as set ups (usable and seen them) vs. fakes as boxing feints where you half throw something to get the person to move(haven't seen them).

Just my opinion, but a fight is something you shouldn't be able to avoid. If one guy says lets take this outside and you agree, it is more of a duel and more sporting rules would apply because of the psychology of it. I guess my definition of a fight is something where you have no control of it and it is not brought on by your choice (ie: couldn't talk your way out of it, couldn't leave etc.)or you are just ambushed and it is self-defense.

"God gave you a brain, and it annoys Him greatly when you choose not to use it."

[FeloniousMonk]

Define fakes, if it is just directing someones attention, to set them up with an unsuspected attack, then ofcourse! That's classic warfare. Just don't waiste a movement, every movement has a purpose, especially in a street fight! I would be safe to saythat I am.....

The unbeatable Felonious Monk

[Turiyan]

Self-defense is a legal distinction. You cannot go into your fighting stance or use fakes and call it self-defense.

Thats fighting. Look up your states statutes. Doing the physical equivalent of "gring it on" or "i'll kick your butt" is egging on an assault, self-defense is attack-block-run, or if you have to, attack back.

But then there will be an interpretation of weather the force you used was equal or excessive. If you use violence in breaking the law, and convicted, you will do time with rapists and baby killers.

They always take names down at a crime scene, and then you find out later, often years, that you have to show up in court. Often times, as the defendant.

Turiyan gold, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan
"A Brahmin, coming into existence, is born as the highest on earth, the
lord of all created beings, for the protection of the treasury of the
(natural) law. Whatever exists in the world is (by right), the
property of the Brahmin; on account of the excellence of his origin
(primogeniture and eminence of birth) The Brahmin is, indeed, entitled
to it all" --C1V99-V100 The laws of manu

[Sharky]

they say men can't fake it, but i reckon i could. if she was butters i'd be in and out as quick as possible.

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[joedoe]

If she is butters, why are you in a position where you'd have to fake it anyway? :D

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi