Bad habits from sparring

[SAAMAG]

I've heard this line time and again, and although I might have tunnel vision on the subject due to my own training habits, I simply can't see it. Just to be the devils advocate, lets think about this for a moment.

In the beginning, man knew nothing. Through pragmatic means (trial and error) man learns new things...what to do...what not to do...etc. It's the same thing with fighting and fighting techniques.

Every method of fighting on the earth today was created at some point from pragmatic methods, or past information which itself was gathered by pragmatic means. It can also be said that some people took this limited knowledge and through logic may have conceived other techniques based on previous similar experiences (This could be where the theorists came from). Some of what was theorized was tested and some was not. It can then be said that all these methods were passed from teacher to student and so forth till today...some evolving with times, and some not. Some theory, some pragmatic, somewhere in between, and sometimes to both extremes.

Now you have all these styles out there, all limited in some form or fashion, dictating what most people do in a fight. Now you've got two different types, most people are robots, doing only what they're told without thinking as to why, or even thinking logically if it may not work. They just do it on blind faith. Then there are a few people out there that do question all that is learned, they think for themselves, knowing that their survival in this subject is ultimately up to them.

Sparring/fighting is essential to fighting, and the human body adapts almost at a subconcious level...if you let it. If you don't keep your hands up and start getting hit in the face a lot, odds are you are going to start raising up the guard. If you keep your weight too forward and people are constantly sweeping you, you're probably going to keep more aware of what that front leg is doing and put less weight on in when you're in that danger zone. If people are constantly going for your legs, you're eventually going to sprawl your legs out naturally to a degree in a simple effort to keep your legs away from the attack. Etc...etc...etc. It causes one to think about what they're doing, and informs them quite honestly, as to what they're doing wrong.

Granted, if you were to take a completely clean slate, and throw them into a fight, odds are that they will get pummeled. Training this way with a noob consistently, without teaching at least the basics, will create a long learning curve. But bad habits? I still fail to see what bad habits could come. Fighting is like a filter, it will weed out the useless techniques and literally create effective ones.

So for those of you who believe that hard sparring creates bad habits, please, give some specifics of what you're speaking of. Because maybe it's just me, or maybe Im just not thinking right in terms of what you mean.

[Vajramusti]

Briefly- I have sparred a lot in my time. Didn't learn any wing chun from it.Learned jabs, hooks, crossses, uppercuts- nice things to have and use.When I was well into the art every skill that I had was transformed by wing chun.

Good Wing chun IMO is NOT easy to learn. Lots of folks have not had sustained good instruction in wing chun. Van -your background from what I recall froma past post wwas limited and interrupted. Learned from a cousin/friend before going on to the armed forces--- or something like that. IMO from what I gather you are doing mma not wing chun.If I am wrong forgive my recollection.With sustained good instruction and practice of wing chun one can test it in fighting and matches or EVEN in sparring.With the right coach boxers can be trained to use wing chun.

From the wing chun engine once assembled one can do the wing chun versions of
hooks and uppercuts- they are there. And there is so much more- elbows, shoulders, knees, feet, knuckles, fingers-using wing chun dynamics--not so called common sense. Real common sense is uncommon.

Once good wing chun structure and dynamics via good chi sao is in place- all sorts of evolutions and adaptations can happen positively and progressively to devlop higher levels of skills without makinga mish mash of things..

In the evolution of wing chun--- wing chun IMO evolved under Ip Man beyond what he inherited. Ho Kam Ming himself says that while the majority of what he knows came from Ip man- he evolved with the help of his kung fu brothers, his students and his expermients while the subject matter not just the label remained wing chun. Ditto and even more so for Sifu Augustine Fong- he practices and teaches every day since 1960 and dicovers new applications of the art... without it becoming MMA. Ditto for me to0. Wing chun is not dogmatic allows great individuation and evolution.
While much of mma and has crept in ... good wing chun is alive and well and IMO -is better than before. But just makinga stew is not evolution. Sure one can handle oneself with one's stew sometimes- but ot wont have the inner consistency and quality control and control that wc develops.
Sorry gotta run- duty calls- no one finger typo corrections. Sorry. Joy

[Gangsterfist]

I agree with you pretty much 100%. With out progressive steps and progressive sparring in your gung fu, how can you effectively become a good fighter. Thats if thats one of your goals in gung fu training of course. We all have our own lives and our own goals.

However, we are all monkeys. We all have instinctual bad habits from just being humans. Sometimes the monkey in us gets us in trouble. We need to train an awarness so we can concentrate on the big picture at once, and not one thing at a time ignoring everything else.

One example: Last week I went out with my roomate to a bar to have a few drinks. He studies a different system than I do, but he did study wing chun with me for several months to check it out, and he still does the SLT even though he mostly trains in tai hui. We were messing around in the parking lot and I did some arial kicks towards him. Stuff I would NEVER attempt in a real fight. Stuff that looked flashy, you know I was just having fun. He was doing the same things back to me. Well I then tried to impersenate mr. miyagi from the karate kid and do the crane kick. Needless to say anyone who wasn't living under a rock in the 80s knows whats coming when they see that pose. So he decided to sweep my legs from under me in mid air. Which he actually did pretty well sending me flying on my back flat. Now, I have trained to break fall in the past and done grappling training. So, I did my break fall but in the mid air of the fall I realized I was on concrete near a curb and I held in my breath, instead of exhaling. My monkey mistake. I landed on the curb across the small of my back diagnal up towards the shoulder. I fell at an agle I guess you could say. The fall honestly did not hurt really that bad at all, but the air trapped in my lungs knocked the wind out of me. I immediately got up and was winded and tried breathing. It took me a second to catch my breath again. Had I not had the moment of realization that I was on concrete, I would have not paniced for the micro of a second and would have fell 100% correctly.

So, we have to train ourselves to not over comitt, to not focus on our hands when punching, to not focus only on our legs when kicking, to not worry about their fists, to just go in and do whatever and get it done quickly. We have to break ourselves of these bad habits. The SLT teaches us this, and I can't believe how I have progressed since my very very first wing chun class. I remember being outside doing chain punches and pak sao drills, and how my sifu told me my shoulders will be my worst enemy in my kung fu training. I had really tense shoulders, another one of my monkey habits.

So, how does this relate to sparring you are probably wondering?

Sparring does have lots of plusses but it can in fact be bad for you. You can develope bad habits. It could effect your wing chun, and make it something else. Which is a whole other discussion all together, I am no purist by any means, I study several arts, not just wing chun. It can also develope a false blanket of security. If you don't spar for a wide variety of fighting/sparring situations, what are you going to do when you are on the streets and encounter it? I see another monkey moment happening, and your monkey brain doing something stupid. Also, sparring against wing chun people really only makes you good at fighting other wing chun people. So, would it not be more effecient to spar outside your art as well within your art. I suppose thats what competitions are for, but those are few and far between and cost you money to enter. So, if your sparring training is limited in some way it will also limit you, and if you are not aware of it, in te long run it could end up hurting you.

The SLT is the key I think. It teaches this awareness to help beat out your monkey brain habbits. I think once you reach that level you can better adapt your training to multiple situations and multiple encounters. The thing is, you are one person not an arsenal. You cannot call in for back up, or call in ordance blasts, or an air strike. You are not an army. When it comes down the bare minimum you have maximized a few techniques and have perfected them or trained them to work well with your structure.

This also brings up another bad thing about sparring. If you practice too much spread out across the boards, you become a jack of all traits and a master of none. If two men of equal age, size, an attributes were having a fight. Would you put your money on the man that has practiced one technique 1 million times, or the guy that has practiced 1 million techniques one time each.

So, really you must find balance in it to make it worth your while. This will be reached usually by trial and error, just like you said before.

Sparring is a great tool if done properly.

[PaulH]

I learn how to hit with intention through sparring. I think most people agree that it is good, but differ on when to do it. Nothing can't be fixed with a good coach though.

[curtis]

Hi guys

IMHO I believe sparing is the Pandora's box of the martial arts. more bad things can be learned form sparing than good things.
It dose little to nothing to help a person learn to defend them self. ITS A GAME! THAT'S ALL!
In a fight there is emotions at play, like fear & anger, to name a few. that can really rune to hole gambit. Sparing can not deal with this aspect. nor can it deal with the stress that is involved.
To really know ANY ART.(IMHO) Takes a lot of control and training, that just cant come from any fast pasted training methods, Slow and steady training.is whets really important.(To FULLY UNDERSTAND CONCEPTS, TAKES TIME.) Once that level has been achieved, then Role playing and Self defense aspect can be looked at.
Control is the key, slow and steady progression. and Focus on whets important,must be learned long before you can PLAY .

The game of sparing can be useful and will teach some of the finer aspects of movement. But there are Far to many drawbacks that are involved, and a false sense of security, can be all to readily be made, and enforced.By believing you are doing something correctly because it worked in sparing ,IN truth just because you are able to hit, your sparing partner, doesn't mean you did something Right, or That he did something Wrong! sometimes its just the opposite.

SPARING is Me against You, and that is not good, for learning.
But of course that's just my opinion.

[SAAMAG]

Briefly- I have sparred a lot in my time. Didn't learn any wing chun from it.Learned jabs, hooks, crossses, uppercuts- nice things to have and use.When I was well into the art every skill that I had was transformed by wing chun.

Good Wing chun IMO is NOT easy to learn. Lots of folks have not had sustained good instruction in wing chun. Van -your background from what I recall froma past post wwas limited and interrupted. Learned from a cousin/friend before going on to the armed forces--- or something like that. IMO from what I gather you are doing mma not wing chun.If I am wrong forgive my recollection.With sustained good instruction and practice of wing chun one can test it in fighting and matches or EVEN in sparring.With the right coach boxers can be trained to use wing chun.

From the wing chun engine once assembled one can do the wing chun versions of
hooks and uppercuts- they are there. And there is so much more- elbows, shoulders, knees, feet, knuckles, fingers-using wing chun dynamics--not so called common sense. Real common sense is uncommon.

Once good wing chun structure and dynamics via good chi sao is in place- all sorts of evolutions and adaptations can happen positively and progressively to devlop higher levels of skills without makinga mish mash of things..

In the evolution of wing chun--- wing chun IMO evolved under Ip Man beyond what he inherited. Ho Kam Ming himself says that while the majority of what he knows came from Ip man- he evolved with the help of his kung fu brothers, his students and his expermients while the subject matter not just the label remained wing chun. Ditto and even more so for Sifu Augustine Fong- he practices and teaches every day since 1960 and dicovers new applications of the art... without it becoming MMA. Ditto for me to0. Wing chun is not dogmatic allows great individuation and evolution.
While much of mma and has crept in ... good wing chun is alive and well and IMO -is better than before. But just makinga stew is not evolution. Sure one can handle oneself with one's stew sometimes- but ot wont have the inner consistency and quality control and control that wc develops.
Sorry gotta run- duty calls- no one finger typo corrections. Sorry. Joy

I see what you're saying Joy, I do. Good wing chun is an arduous process. That's why it's kung fu. Great skill through hard work over time. Just as it was with the other chinese martial arts that I studied. Wing chun is one of the arts that I've studied the longest, coupled with other chinese martial arts and muay thai. True, due to moving around, injuries, and other reasons my personal "lineage" in the arts hasn't been traditional in any sense of the word, but does that I mean that my knowledge is any less credible because of it? True it may not all be of wing chun, or even all of wing chun...but what I know of wing chun...is absolutely wing chun. I also can choose to fight in whatever style I choose to...and contain it there. I choose to blend however because from my experience, it's been more effective in any given true altercation or training fights then to try and contain things to one system. Although I do value wing chun's theories and concepts over any other style I've studied, as it can transpose to just about any arts techniques.

But what does this all mean in terms of sparring in general? Are you basically saying that the "mistakes" in sparring aren't necessarily mistakes in terms of ineffectiveness, but rather in not conforming to wing chun? Because whenever I spar, I don't conform, I just react. Containing oneself should happen during training, drilling, chi sao, forms, and what have you. Sparring/fighting, should be fighting. Your performance is based on how you trained (in both technique and "style")

[SAAMAG]

Sparring does have lots of plusses but it can in fact be bad for you. You can develope bad habits. It could effect your wing chun, and make it something else.
So then when people alter their wing chun techniques to customize them, then would that be turning wing chun into something not wing chun? And then you have to think about what makes wing chun. IF one follows the theories and principles alone...is it wing chun? Is it wing chun if they are using the geometric shapes and not the theories? Or is it only wing chun if they use both? Is wing chun simply being fast, efficient, and effective? What if the evolution of wing chun came down to adapting it to oneself, as many wing chunners of the past have done?


If you don't spar for a wide variety of fighting/sparring situations, what are you going to do when you are on the streets and encounter it? ...Also, sparring against wing chun people really only makes you good at fighting other wing chun people. So, would it not be more effecient to spar outside your art as well within your art. So, if your sparring training is limited in some way it will also limit you, and if you are not aware of it, in te long run it could end up hurting you.
I agree completely here. That's why I only like sparring that is from head to toe and exludes nothing. That's why I encourage people to act as they would in real life, or as someone else would with malicious intentions. And that's why I stress fighting other good fighters from different schools on a consistant basis. Better yet, make friends with guys in different fields of study.


The SLT is the key I think. It teaches this awareness to help beat out your monkey brain habbits. I think once you reach that level you can better adapt your training to multiple situations and multiple encounters. The thing is, you are one person not an arsenal. You cannot call in for back up, or call in ordance blasts, or an air strike. You are not an army. When it comes down the bare minimum you have maximized a few techniques and have perfected them or trained them to work well with your structure.
Let's hope you're right...because I do train SLT quite religiously.


If you practice too much spread out across the boards, you become a jack of all traits and a master of none. If two men of equal age, size, an attributes were having a fight. Would you put your money on the man that has practiced one technique 1 million times, or the guy that has practiced 1 million techniques one time each.

People often use the "jack of all trades and master of none" phrase. Lets say you've taken art "A". "A" consists of three punches, and three kicks, along with the associated footwork and theories behind it. Many of the techniques in art "A" can be found in other martial arts as well, with slight variations at times, but nonetheless, there. Then you have someone else who took arts "B", "C", and
"D". They took 3 punches from "A", and then 2 kicks from "B", and the grappling techniques from "C". It's still the same basic number of techniques, and it can be trained with just as much intensity as soley practicing art "A". So then where does the "...master of none" part come in? Isn't a style, in and of itself, simply a conglomeration of techniques gathered and perfected to work in conjuction with one another based on a core theorem? If so...then both people in this example are one and the same. A modern ideal of this would be Kajukenbo (a style now widely accepted now, though created from five other established styles) So is every Kajukenbo stylist a jack of all trades and master of none?

[SAAMAG]

Hi guys

IMHO I believe sparing is the Pandora's box of the martial arts. more bad things can be learned form sparing than good things.
It dose little to nothing to help a person learn to defend them self. ITS A GAME! THAT'S ALL!
In a fight there is emotions at play, like fear & anger, to name a few. that can really rune to hole gambit. Sparing can not deal with this aspect. nor can it deal with the stress that is involved.
To really know ANY ART.(IMHO) Takes a lot of control and training, that just cant come from any fast pasted training methods, Slow and steady training.is whets really important.(To FULLY UNDERSTAND CONCEPTS, TAKES TIME.) Once that level has been achieved, then Role playing and Self defense aspect can be looked at.
Control is the key, slow and steady progression. and Focus on whets important,must be learned long before you can PLAY .

The game of sparing can be useful and will teach some of the finer aspects of movement. But there are Far to many drawbacks that are involved, and a false sense of security, can be all to readily be made, and enforced.By believing you are doing something correctly because it worked in sparing ,IN truth just because you are able to hit, your sparing partner, doesn't mean you did something Right, or That he did something Wrong! sometimes its just the opposite.

SPARING is Me against You, and that is not good, for learning.
But of course that's just my opinion.

Sooooo then, you would rather not spar, so as to not create any bad habits...since after all, sparring won't help you in a real altercation as it's just a game right? That's funny. You think that someone who doesn't spar has any more of a chance in "real life" as opposed to someone that does participate in HARD sparring/fighting? Keep in mind when I say spar, Im not talking about patty cake, Im talking about high intensity, high stress, constant and superfluous testing of ones abilities both mentally and physically. IF you think that can't help you in a fight...then I would like to hear more of what you think does.

Granted, one learns to center himself with his forms, sharpening his blade mentally and physically. He learns to semi apply his techniques and the mental triggers through drilling, and he learns to fully apply his "style" or "himself" (depending on your outlook on styles) through hard and non ruled sparring.
It's a three legged stool. One leg cannot be longer then the other to be completely balanced.

[Edmund]

Read the ezine article "Training For The Fight":

"Sparring is one of the least used - and most abused - training methods. Many gyms have Friday night fights, or sparring, just once a week. Most students tend to think sparring is a mini fight, which will have a winner and a loser. This is completely wrong. Sparring is a chance for you to practice your combinations on a live opponent, without worrying about getting hurt. There should be no injuries in sparring. And there should be two winners. Always try to spar with people better than you. Spar easy. Don't injure the other man. Fight cleanly. And you will both benefit."

[curtis]

Vankuen OK I will play!

The hole world looks at the martial arts in an inertly different light than Wc dose.
Its all to easy to get caught up in the glamour.

Think about it. can you really learn the difference between blocking vs clearing the perimeter in sparing?

can you learn how to feel (or lesion) to energy through sparing??

without the tactile touch of trapping, the feeling of what your opponent can do will not be there. With out that,The hole art of trapping is gone!

Sparing is a tool. ONLY.
It can be used by some, but I feel, for most it is a tool that should be left alone.

All Im saying is that Sparing is not the way,to learn. there are much better ways!

I am afraid we will just to agree to disagree on this topic.


Learning is the first step, Teaching the body is the second step, and training is the last step. the goal is to Learn and train and continue to Learn. Sparing is just an illusion it dose not teach, it just feeds the ego. and it may work for the rest of the world.
But as I see it, It doesn't work for me.

Have a good night.

[Gangsterfist]

What I meant about becoming something else, is that it can develope counter-productive habbits that go against wing chuns basic design. Wing Chun is a conceptual art. How you practice a tan sao in the form is not the way you will always perform it. The ideas and concepts are there to teach you a reference point of where the body has optimal skeletal structure, and optimal muscular structure. The human arm is naturally stronger in certain positions over others. You are really not practicing a tan sao at all, you are practicing an energy and a concept of how to apply that energy. How you apply it will depend because all results will vary. That is because fighting is not an exact science, infact its very dynamic and there are so many variables that happen each fight.

So, how to maintain your progressive wing chun training and not develope bad habits when sparring?

I think that sparring is essential if you want to be a good fighter. I think that it needs to be done with a wing chun awarness though. You must crawl before you walk. Teaching methods are exremely dynamic from sifu to sifu as well. I know of people who only were trained SLT and Chi sao for their first year of training, then they moved on after that. OTOH, I have heard of people getting into sparring in the first month of training. It totally depends on the person and their goals, how to gauge that is near impossible, the person who is training must decide. Then the teacher must train the student how he desires to. I really do not teach at all. I will help out and teach junior people and I have had people come to my house to train who have less experience than me outside of class. My sifu encourages it, and really he encourages all his students to teach after a few years of wing chun. Me, heh, I'd rather try a different style.

I do infact cross train but I usually look into system that do have some similiar concepts compared to wing chun. That way I am still working with some similiar stuff.

When I saw Ho Kam Ming this last summer he gave a speach on how wing chun training has changed so much for him from the time he started till the current times. The art changes in the mind of the practitioner as you progress. So does the training. Things like the butterfly knives and long pole were added into wing chun later on, because some people found them very useful with wing chun attributes. If someone who has spent decades training and teaching the art and sees differences even now it can only mean that you must progress the art.

The problem with some poeple is they do not progress the art or perhaps they do not fully see the potential of the art. They will say things like wing chun has no grappling or no chin na. Wing chun does have it, you just have to train it. Remember its a conceptual art, which the concepts can be transfered to a new medium. You got to have that awareness of all things, and not just focus on one detail and ignore everything else. You can break stuff down and analyze it for learning purposes or to better explain it to someone. You can train it that way too for muscle memory, etc, but in a real situation you cannot focus just on your punches, you will get beat if your opponet is skilled.

Its really hard for me to explain this, because I honestly don't know the best way to epxlain it yet. The awareness you gain opens your mind to so many different applications of wing chun, and not just in combat, in other situations. You have to keep an idea that everything you practice is adjustable depending on the situation. Also, I think you should have the attitude of adding things to your tool belt, and not trying to reinvent the wheel, or extremely over complicate wing chun. I don't think that wing chun was meant to be a complicated art. I think it was designed to effeciently train people to use their body and their structure as weapons. I think that a big part of your wing chun training is self discovery and the answers will come to you when you start seeking the right questions. This is just my opinion, but like I said it changes so much, and has changed for me a lot since I first started wing chun. Its up to you to reach the awareness where you can improve your wing chun yourself.

You already know the answers, your sifu has been saying them for years, your monkey brain is just now actually realizing what they mean. Then a few more years down the road you will see them differently and your monkey brain is still at work.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"So for those of you who believe that hard sparring creates bad habits, please, give some specifics of what you're speaking of." (Van)

Clearly...I'm not one of those who believes that hard sparring creates bad habits - but there are certain "precautions" that need to be followed or else bad habits could develop.

Certain pitfalls to be avoided...such as not learning enough Wing Chun principles, strategy, and technique BEFORE starting to spar.

BUT THERE IS A CATCH HERE...which is this:

How much needs to be learned first?

The learning process must be done progressively - but not prolonged needlessly...since insisting that a LARGE amount of the system must be learned first before sparring is a MISTAKE, imo.

A big mistake. (Many a false step is made by standing still).

Basics like SLT, a fair amount of basic footwork, basic punching and kicking, some basic pak sao and pak da drills, the same for lop and bong, some dan chi sao - which all could be learned to a fairly proficient extent inside of perhaps 5-6 months...

and someone should at least be ready for some sparring DRILLS.

By this I mean, for example: (A) throws a high straight punch from non contact range...and (B) responds with a basic wing chun defense (ie.- pak da).

Followed By (A) throws a hook punch to the head...and (B) responds with another wing chun response.

(A) throws a kick to the groin...and (B) defends with a wing chun response.

Then (A) throws any one of those three attacks - and (B) must respond with an appropriate wing chun move.

And in addition to the above...(A) is CONTINUING to learn some basic double arm chi sao during other times in class...so that he's learning more about close contact sensitivity, a further understanding of the use of the centerline, simultaneous use of both arms, some close quarter footwork, etc.

And...he's learning some basic non contact range attacks...so that the sparring drills aren't just about playing defense - but now begins to include some attack footwork and strategy, etc.

In this manner he's not "rushing" into sparring and becoming more of a kickboxer than a wing chun fighter - while simultaneously avoiding the pitfall of ENDLESS months (perhaps years?) going by without any sparring (or sparring drills) whatsoever - because he's been told that he's "not ready"...or that it's "not necessary".

It is necessary - if he wants to be able to fight with wing chun in a timely manner.

And turning the pre-arranged (or semi pre-arranged) drills into actual spontaneous sparring as quickly as possible is part of the whole "ART" of teaching wing chun.

As a final note for now...someone made this comment earlier on this thread:

"I have sparred a lot in my time. Didn't learn any wing chun from it."

My answer to that is that he either didn't have an instructor who understood how to teach wing chun sparring - or he had an instructor who just didn't want to teach sparring.

The bottom line: GOOD WING CHUN REQUIRES SPARRING.

[Hendrik]

what is a Bad Habits from sparring?


There are situational un awareness, there are habitual un awareness, there are un awareness execution, there are no idea how to deal with the situation, there are .....etc and what is the cause of the un awareness? un responsive? blind execution?

is it about a habit pick up from doing sparring or is it about a hidden stuffs show up in the sparring?

[Vajramusti]

Van sez:
But what does this all mean in terms of sparring in general? Are you basically saying that the "mistakes" in sparring aren't necessarily mistakes in terms of ineffectiveness, but rather in not conforming to wing chun? Because whenever I spar, I don't conform, I just react. Containing oneself should happen during training, drilling, chi sao, forms, and what have you. Sparring/fighting, should be fighting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Van- I am fairly consistent in the views that I have developed over time.
1. Wing chun is not the only way to learn how to defend oneself.

2. wing chun is to me a very complete art because it draws from nature and nature is inexhaustible and it prepares the martial artist to extract from nature very well and
continue to extract from it....lines, angles, motions, combinations, flow, controls, power, speed, positioning, spatial sense.

3. Bad sparring is still bad wing chun as well.. But good sparring is not enough---you learn some controls for some punches if you have a good critic of your sparring.
If you dont have a good critic/coach and are self taught you may not realize the mistakes you made because you are satisfied that the punch landed in some way aginst that particular partner on that particular day. A person who medicates himself hasa fool for a patient very often.

4. The wing chun "tool box"(I dont like the term usually- but I use it here in trying to communicate) is much bigger than the boxing or kick boxing type of tool box
and sparring does not sharpen- so many things--popai jeung ganjan, kwan sao, biu jee, square bodied double handed ness, 2-3 motions at the same time,..
wing chun can sharpen sparring but the reverse is more problematic and wastes time that could be used for sharpening wing chun timing. Wing chun has lots of good striking but it is not exclusively a striking art.

5. Moving chi sao, gor sao, lop sao, lat sao- has lots of contact work. Its not solo training. After being good at those things---there is no problem in experimenting in various ways depending on the law and the possibilities. And it can then enrich
other martial activities and sports.


But if you are conviced that sparring is the way to learn wing chun-ypu are welcome to your opinion. I am no missionary of any persuasion. Joy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Victor sez- as he usually does:
The bottom line: GOOD WING CHUN REQUIRES SPARRING.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

((Perhaps it does for his wing chun))Joy

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Victor sez- as he usually does:
The bottom line: GOOD WING CHUN REQUIRES SPARRING....((Perhaps it does for his wing chun))" Joy


IT'S A TOTAL DELUSION to think that anyone...and I mean ANYONE...could be a good fighter - whether it be using wing chun or any other martial art - without frequent sparring being part of their training curriculum.

There are many who may claim to be a good fighter without it - but they are deluding themselves.

LOL.

[Simple_easy]

Wing Chun is for REAL (Real fighting, anything can happen. Life or death risk), is not a SPORT. That means total incapacitation of our enemy, as FAST as we can.
(That's how "the sparring that is practiced in most of gung-fu schools, etc..." can create bad habits)

From another angle, the most important training "apparatus" in the Wing Chun training, is our PARTNER. HE is the one who is going to help us, to improve to a higher level skill. Without a partner "IN HEALTHY and FIT CONDITIONS" forget Wing Chun.

How to solve this dilemma???

Wing Chun give us two very important concepts:

1- The CHI SAU concept (I am talking here of the concept that is used in the Chi Sau exercise)

2- LUT SAU concept. (Which is used in the Lut Sau exercises. And this one makes the function of the "sparring training that you guys are searching")


BUT, LUT SAU, doesn't have nothing to do with that kind of sparring that you guys are talking about.

By the way also exist a form of Wing Chun sparring called JIP SAU also.
Best Regards :cool:

[t_niehoff]

Whether "sparring" or fighting reinforces bad fighting habits depends on how one is doing it; anything we do, forms, drills, chi sao, etc. can be reinforcing bad habits -- any practice can reinforce bad habits. To not reinforce bad habits, we need to be able to first identify what exactly are our bad fighting habits. The rub is that this can't be done theoretically or from cooperative practice because while those things may often sound sensible or appear (in cooperative practice) to work, often under the pressure and intensity of genuine fighting they are revealed to actually be bad habits. Only experience, fighting, will permit one to identify and correct those bad habits. IME and IMO what most WCK practitioners are doing with their chi sao, lop sao, drills, etc. is unconsciously reinforcing lots of bad fighting habits (and actually becoming worse fighters, not better ones), and that's because they are not finding out these things for themselves.

Does rolling reinforce bad BJJ? Does sparring reinforce bad boxing? Only among nonfighter/theoreticians would that sort of question even be taken seriously.

[YungChun]

Reminds me of people who smoke who are worried that using 'the patch' to quit might be bad for their health... :rolleyes:

Not sparring generally has more ill effects than will sparring. :eek:

But certain kinds of sparring can be IMO really bad for your WCK kung-fu such as:


'Don't touch me' sparring.

'Don't go for the head' sparring.

'Really big glove' sparring.

'Wing Chun vs. Wing Chun only' sparring.

Or

'I just learned the Chain Punches and I'm sparring', sparring.

[Simple_easy]

"WING CHUN CHIN JING TONG.....
MOU LUM HIN HUNG FUNG....."

"Wing Chun passed down traditionally, in its true essence,
(that is, NOT CHANGED by our own ideas), reveals a deep
wisdom. Show #1 ability. The nation gets stronger"

[SAAMAG]

"WING CHUN CHIN JING TONG.....
MOU LUM HIN HUNG FUNG....."

"Wing Chun passed down traditionally, in its true essence,
(that is, NOT CHANGED by our own ideas), reveals a deep
wisdom. Show #1 ability. The nation gets stronger"

Every martial art that I have ever been trained in, had a teacher that changed something somewhere based on what he thought it should be, or what better suited him during training. I'm willing to bet most everyone out there has done or experienced the same. Assuming this is true it can be said that there really is no martial art out there...let alone wing chun....that hasn't been changed by our own ideas.

But the question remains, are the habits bad because they caused you to get hit, or simply because they don't conform to wing chun?

[SAAMAG]

Sunday my private training partner came to work out. We worked on the form(s), then did some reaction drilling (fixed), and then worked on a live application of tan sao, from doing it in the air to a light drill to a full on power live application drill. We went from 0-100 in one days time. By the end of the class...he went from applying the tan sao in the air, and lightly in a fixed drill, to being able to recognize in movement the trigger for it and effectively use it against a real punch.

This happened because we didn't do a fixed drill for years...this happened because we tested it progressively harder, and under more stressful conditions. I guess I could've had him do the tan sao section of the form though for a year first...so as not to create any bad habits.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Wing Chun passed down traditionally, in its true essence,
(that is, NOT CHANGED by our own ideas), reveals a deep
wisdom. Show #1 ability. The nation gets stronger"


WHAT A FORMULA FOR MIND CONTROL !!!

And dictatorship...blind obedience...cult of personality...and solidification of power in the hands of the self-appointed few who will be the "bearers of tradition".

The total anti-thesis of democracy, individual liberty, and freedom of expression.

And the fact that so many people within the wing chun world have bought into this kind of thinking is the SINGLE BIGGEST REASON, imo...why wing chun is slowly but surely falling off the martial art map.

Tradition is good - but it must always be supplemented by experimentation and new ways of approaching and mixing things - for the IMAGINATION is key to progress.

"The human Will is all powerful and the Imagination is a most useful faculty with a dynamic force. The Imagination is the picture-making power of the human mind...When trained it is the Constructor in the Human Workshop...and is the greatest power, after Will, in the human assemblage of complicated instruments." (The Ocean Of Theosophy - by Willam Q. Judge)

[Simple_easy]

WHAT A FORMULA FOR MIND CONTROL !!!

And dictatorship...blind obedience...cult of personality...and solidification of power in the hands of the self-appointed few who will be the "bearers of tradition".

The total anti-thesis of democracy, individual liberty, and freedom of expression.


:confused: ????????????????????????????????? :eek:

No more comments......

[Gangsterfist]

"Wing Chun passed down traditionally, in its true essence,
(that is, NOT CHANGED by our own ideas), reveals a deep
wisdom. Show #1 ability. The nation gets stronger"


WHAT A FORMULA FOR MIND CONTROL !!!

And dictatorship...blind obedience...cult of personality...and solidification of power in the hands of the self-appointed few who will be the "bearers of tradition".

The total anti-thesis of democracy, individual liberty, and freedom of expression.

And the fact that so many people within the wing chun world have bought into this kind of thinking is the SINGLE BIGGEST REASON, imo...why wing chun is slowly but surely falling off the martial art map.

Tradition is good - but it must always be supplemented by experimentation and new ways of approaching and mixing things - for the IMAGINATION is key to progress.


For someone who loves to burden the forums with their perspective on how things "should be done," cannot see anyone else's perspectives?

Victor, i love ya man, you crack me up sometimes and you are very passionate about wing chun. You have definately given back to the next generation being so into it and teaching it and passing it down. You trained under william cheung (?) and incorporate some catch wrestling in your wing chun training to cover more ground(?), correct me if I am wrong, memory can be kind of fuzzy sometimes.

However, lately I have been reading these forums and its all pretty much people arguing over how they should train. Wing chun cannot progress when its practitioner's argue amongst themselves.

If someone says something you disagree with, you immediately engage into some kind of debate or argument mode and you even provoke them into it. I wish this forum would go back to a golden age of just sharing information and no flame wars would occur, oh wait, that has never happened.

You are opinionated, thats cool man, everyone is. But lets get back to the matter at hand here. Lets discuss the negatives of sparring. Lets do it constructively, maybe we can all learn something.

One thing I do is balance my training. I am not against sparring at hard or near full contact levels with minimal gear as long as I am with someone I trust. Been biu sao'd in the eye a few times by sloppy people who can't control their movements. Sparring is still playing nice, its not real fighting. I think that needs to be clear when sparring with someone. Also, its not a contest, its progressive learning, like in your 0 to 100 thread victor, I agree with you on that.

Do not over do it. I have known so many people with shoulder, hip, arm, ankle, knee problems from over doing it. I have gotten cracked ribs from someone taking things a bit far, who was suppose to be a training partner.

Communication is very important with your sparring partner. You should work on techniques first in a controlled enviroment, then after you are used to each other go into more of a free sparring situation.

Sparring is a great tool if done properly, otherwise its counter-productive IMHO. Also, all those NHB, k-1, and pride fighters, you think they train gung fu the way we do? You think they practice forms and drills? I would say most of their training is probably conditioning and the rest of it is probably sparring, fighting, but in a controlled enviroment. Trainers don't want to injur their fighters while training, thats just bad business.

I once was told by a friend of mine who teaches another system that there are three ways to train in gung fu. One, physically do it and go all out. Hard work outs, full contact sparring, etc. Practice it slowly, do form work, refinement, muscle memory. Last, think about training. When you are not training think about training gung fu. He also trains harder than most people and his class works hard. They do 1 to 2 hour work outs (military style work outs, 1000s of push ups sometimes) and the rest they do gung fu training. I have nothing but respect for those guys they work harder than I do a lot of the times.

[Ernie]

"WING CHUN CHIN JING TONG.....
MOU LUM HIN HUNG FUNG....."

"Wing Chun passed down traditionally, in its true essence,
(that is, NOT CHANGED by our own ideas), reveals a deep
wisdom. Show #1 ability. The nation gets stronger"

Basics are basics and can not be changed , [ the robot is built ]
but not until the robot has free thinking and individual expression will there be life and real understanding of application

until then pinocchio is only a dead piece of wood pulled by another mans strings
yet he thinks he is a boy hmmmmmm

basics are basic , yes and can not be changed [two arms two legs ] but nothing can replace individual experience and expression

security blankets , training wheels , traditional brainwashing

great for marketing !

[Gangsterfist]

Basics are basics and can not be changed , [ the robot is built ]
but not until the robot has free thinking and individual expression will there be life and real understanding of application

until then pinocchio is only a dead piece of wood pulled by another mans strings
yet he thinks he is a boy hmmmmmm

basics are basic , yes and can not be changed [two arms two legs ] but nothing can replace individual experience and expression

security blankets , training wheels , traditional brainwashing

great for marketing !

Ernie,

I have heard similiar things from my sifu, but he explained it to me as keeping the tradition of passing the art down to future generations. You know some traditions aren't bad ;)

[Ernie]

Ernie,

I have heard similiar things from my sifu, but he explained it to me as keeping the tradition of passing the art down to future generations. You know some traditions aren't bad ;)

Basics are basics and can not be changed ;)

but what *you* do with those basics is when *you*
begin to learn ,grow, evolve
unitl then , robots and parrots will walk and talk like a scratched recored [ or cd for the young ones ] :D

[Gangsterfist]

dude i like robots and parrots, infact a robot parrot would be pretty cool :)

[Ernie]

dude i like robots and parrots, infact a robot parrot would be pretty cool :)


Me to i talk to them all the time ;) they provide hours of amusement :cool:

[anerlich]

"Wing Chun passed down traditionally, in its true essence,
(that is, NOT CHANGED by our own ideas), reveals a deep
wisdom. Show #1 ability. The nation gets stronger"

Apparently in EVERY aspect of life and human endeavor other than TCMA, especially science which many in Wing Chun pay lip service to, progress is made by individual and critical thinking, and changes always occur.

The above statement is neither logical nor backed by empirical outcomes. If it applied to other aspects of life, we'd be living in caves and wearing bearskins.

I like some traditions. What I think is stupid is blind, uncritical adherence to them, and examination of neither the tradition nor one's attitude to it.

They gave you a brain to be used, not enslaved.

Sparring is like anything else, one aspect of training. IMO an indespensable one. But, like anything else, concentrate on it to the exclusion of other important aspects and your development will be unbalanced.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Victor, i love ya man, you crack me up sometimes and you are very passionate about wing chun. You have definately given back to the next generation being so into it and teaching it and passing it down. You trained under william cheung (?) and incorporate some catch wrestling in your wing chun training to cover more ground(?), correct me if I am wrong, memory can be kind of fuzzy sometimes." (G)

YOUR MEMORY IS CORRECT.


"If someone says something you disagree with, you immediately engage into some kind of debate or argument mode and you even provoke them into it. I wish this forum would go back to a golden age of just sharing information and no flame wars would occur, oh wait, that has never happened." (G)

I GOTTA PLEAD GUILTY to that, Gangsterfist...as for the Golden Age...

let me know when it starts, LOL.

BTW...the rest of your post about your sparring philosophy and what's happened to you in the past was very cool - I've had similar experiences and I agree with your overall point of view.

If you have sparring partners you can trust...then the skies-the-limit.

Your whole game takes off to new and better heights.

Good training.

[Spark]

The Golden Age was when Martial Joe racked up 1000 posts in about 3 months!

[SAAMAG]

Dude! I remember that guy!!!

It's funny, because I recalled talking on here and the board really was more into helping one another and sharing information rather then bickering about personal issues and whose lineage does what, who trains how...etc. Everyone simply did their own thing and shared their knowledge that it might help someone else.

Apparently it's evolved since then. I still have a couple copy pastes of some stuff from here. I'll see if I can find them on my home pc.

Now getting back to the question on the thread:

Now one has really listed the bad habits one can get from sparring...so Im still waiting.

[Spark]

Yup those were the good old days. I guess our post tally doesn't reflect it, but that is pushing 4-5 years ago now.
I also remember that douche Neil something or other who Ryu was always threatenting to kill.
But yeah it was definitely quiter back then, alot less bickering with two sorta "camps".

I'm just wondering - is there anyone on here who spars hard, often, that gets into lots of streetfights? That is someone who could answer this question best!

[SAAMAG]

I think a few of us here train/fight hard consistently. As for streetfights...that's just not smart. I know Im not getting into them often.

[old jong]

As for streetfights...that's just not smart. I know Im not getting into them often.

Often means what?...How many times a month or year?... :confused:

[SAAMAG]

Often means what?...How many times a month or year?... :confused:

I think the last "real" fight that I was involved in was a few years back, prior to my wrist being broken. It was actually to break up a group fight at a movie theatre that migrated ONTO an old couple's car that was trying to leave the parking lot. I didn't step in until I saw the old guy in the car freaking out...