WCK not for sport?

[t_niehoff]

One sentiment I repeatedly hear by the theoretician/nonfighters is "WCK is not for sport" or "WCK is only for street." OK - why isn't it for sport? When it comes down to it, there can only be one reason: "I can't do in sport what I normally would do in a fight." That makes sense if the rules of the sport or contest in some way prevent you from doing what you would normally do; for example, if you are a wrestler in a kickboxing tournament you just can't use any of your wrestling skills. The rules of the contest put you at a great disadvantage. So, can't a WCK fighter use their tan, bong, fook, punch, steps, kicks, etc. in a NHB/vale tudo type contest? Sure. So what can't we do that we normally would do in a fight? What do the "rules" prevent us from doing? And is that a disadvantage?

Well, it always comes down to the so-called "dangerous techniques" or "foul tactics" -- eye gouges, groin kicks, crushing the throat, breaking joints, etc. What else can it be? Everything else you can do in a NHB fight! So what these folks are really saying is that they just can't fight, or fight particularly well, without resorting to gouging eyes, kicking the groin, breaking joints, etc. Take those things away from them, and they just can't fight. If they could fight well without the "dangerous technqiues", then eliminating those things wouldn't adversely effect their performance and they could use WCK for sport. And this is why I call them nonfighter/theoreticians: because they never do these things or train them realistically because they can't -- so they are just theory. In theory, they'll try to do those things and they believe (hope) they will be able to pull them off, and they believe (hope) they will work.

In reality, however, even "streetfights" rarely involve these "foul tactics" -- and for several reasons: 1) the overwhelming majority of "streetfights" aren't life-or-death affairs and so don't warrant or legally permit such behavior (so if your fighting method relies on these things, you'll either get your ass kicked unless it turns into a fight to the death because you can't use your weapons or you'll end up in prison for maiming or seriously injuring someone that took a swing at you - assuming those things actually worked for you), and 2) because you're never able to actually train those things realistically, they just don't work that well, and you'll have real difficulty pulling them off when pressed. And, in fact, when you talk to WCK practitioners that have had "streetfights" and ask them what they did, you find that they didn't use those "foul tactics", instead they used their punch, kick, elbow, pak sao, etc. -- the very things they could use in sport. And that's because those things that you will be able to pull off are the things that you train realistically and everyday against genuinely resisting opponents, and those will be independent of the venue.

So while our skills and weapons will remain the same regardless of the venue, it's our tactics that will depend on our situation. On the street, in some situations (but not all), our tactic may be to escape (which wouldn't be a tactic used in the ring). But we can't just depend on that one, or any one, tactic; there may be situations in the street where escape isn't feasible or even advisable (maybe you need to defend someone, for example). On the street, our situation may be such that going to the ground isn't advisable. But there are situations where we may not have the choice or the situation may be that it is a sound choice to go to the ground. Tactics are what adjust to the situation, not our root skills.

So when folks say "WCK is not for sport", I'm left thinking that if they can't they make their WCK work in NHB/vale tudo, then they just can't make their WCK work period.

[Ultimatewingchun]

AMEN to that.

[CFT]

As a self confessed armchair technician hobbyist, I would like to offer some comments. Even if a WCK practitioner had the technical skills and "real life" experience against resisting opponents, I would still hazard a guess that their cardiovascular conditioning would not be up to the demands of a multi-round NHB-type fight. Of course there must be individuals out there that have such conditioning as part of their training regimen.

[t_niehoff]

CFT wrote:

Even if a WCK practitioner had the technical skills and "real life" experience against resisting opponents, I would still hazard a guess that their cardiovascular conditioning would not be up to the demands of a multi-round NHB-type fight. Of course there must be individuals out there that have such conditioning as part of their training regimen.

**I'm not sure what you are saying. My point is that WCK is just as much for sports like NHB-type fights as for "street". You seem to be saying that NHB's demand greater cardio. OK, if for the sake of argument we assume that is true (which it isn't), doesn't that merely mean that WCK will work in sport provided the WCK fighter develops his cardio sufficiently? The flaw in your view is that it isn't the sport (NHB) that forces folks to have good cardio, it's the level of competition (the skill your opponent relative to yours). Some NHB fights only go for a minute because of difference in skill levels; cardio isn't a factor in those fights. It becomes a factor when the two fighters are evenly matched. If a WCK fighter or a NHB fihgter who is not very skilled gets into a fight on the street with someone equally not very skilled, cardio will be a factor too. You don't think that the "dangerous techniques" will compensate for lack of cardio, do you?

[Hendrik]

what is a moon light sonata?


before that, lets label there are musician, there are piano players, there are music students, there are music theoricians, there are concert company members...........



well, what is a moon light sonata?

[azwingchun]

Though I will agree there may be schools out there that don't possibly train very realistically, but it isn't up to me to judge them and call them out on it. As mentioned, what a real fight is, is based upon many factors as well as perceptions. You seemed to base your idea of reality fighting to N.H.B., I as many others don't. I will admit they are as close as you can possibly get without going out and starting a fight with someone out in the street. But reality it's not!


Well, it always comes down to the so-called "dangerous techniques" or "foul tactics" -- eye gouges, groin kicks, crushing the throat, breaking joints, etc.

Not sure what kinda of situations you have been in, but these were very common in the situations I have encountered. In fact in situations where possibly I had found myself in trouble, these have worked for me. Again, perception is based on experiences, yours aren't mine.


Take those things away from them, and they just can't fight.

This quote is ridiculous, it's like saying if you take away locks and chokes the Gracies can't fight. I look at these types of attacks as just more tools for the tool box, I may not completely rely on these so-called "foul tactic" but they are there for the use if needed. And trust me, if I have an opening to your eyes in a knock down drag out fight....better believe I will take it to end the situation quickly.


Take those things away from them, and they just can't fight. If they could fight well without the "dangerous technqiues", then eliminating those things wouldn't adversely effect their performance and they could use WCK for sport.

Read the above statement I made about the Gracies. I realize the statement about the Gracies is somewhat sarcastic, but think about what you are saying, if someone learns a system that uses these targets to end a fight safely and quickly, then these are every bit as much of fighting tools as someone who uses an armbar to end a fight. Very different, but both very effective in their own ways.


And this is why I call them nonfighter/theoreticians: because they never do these things or train them realistically because they can't -- so they are just theory.

Glad you can speak for all Wing Chun practitioners in the world....I nominate you the Grand Pooba with your great knowledge of all. ;)


In reality, however, even "streetfights" rarely involve these "foul tactics"

Again, not sure the type of fights you have been in, but these were very common in my experiences, whether personally or from the sidelines.


the overwhelming majority of "streetfights" aren't life-or-death affairs and so don't warrant or legally permit such behavior

Again within my experiences, the law was my last concern.....not getting taken out was my first and only concern, regardless of what it took to save my butt. Again, perception is a very real thing.


you'll either get your ass kicked unless it turns into a fight to the death because you can't use your weapons or you'll end up in prison for maiming or seriously injuring someone that took a swing at you

Not true, again, personally these "foul tactics" can be used in any fight. When is
a street encounter not serious enough to use "foul tactics"? To me any street fight is serious enough, maybe that is just me?!?!?!


2) because you're never able to actually train those things realistically, they just don't work that well, and you'll have real difficulty pulling them off when pressed.

Hmmmmn, they work well enough that the N.H.B. associations have banned them. They don't train for them either, do they?!?!?!? Actually, in any ground position for the most part the eyes are readily available. And often times even in the N.H.B. the eyes are actually grabbed, poked or raked acrossed (accidently/intentionally on purpose). I would also beg to differ that these "foul tricks" aren't trained. This would depend on the school, and since neither you nor I have visited all the Wing Chun schools out there...neither of us are qualified to make this judgement on all Wing Chun schools.


But we can't just depend on that one, or any one, tactic;

YEAH.....WE AGREE ON SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)


On the street, our situation may be such that going to the ground isn't advisable.

In my opinion, very seldom is, unless you are in absolute control.


Tactics are what adjust to the situation, not our root skills.

I can see your point, but I think you would agree, skill is needed.


So when folks say "WCK is not for sport", I'm left thinking that if they can't they make their WCK work in NHB/vale tudo, then they just can't make their WCK work period.

This is completely false in my opinion. Again, what is my training focus....if I focus to get in and out, whether through an eye gouge or small joint manipulation (another no-no in the N.H.B.), then I may be limited in these type events. Just as any one who competes in any certain events which doesn't allow for their tools trained. Another more clear expample would be to say that a Judo practitioner can't fight because he can't hold his own in a purely striking event. Anytime there are rules that take away your tools, you are walking in less than what you are. By the way, no matter how rediculous you or someone else finds someone's fighting tools of choice, whether they be armbars, chokes, eye gouges, kicking to the groin etc, doesn't mean they don't work and in any of those situations.....it may only take one.

[CFT]

The flaw in your view is that it isn't the sport (NHB) that forces folks to have good cardio, it's the level of competition (the skill your opponent relative to yours).I didn't realise that you were differentiating between the NHB skillset and the actual sporting competition itself - in my mind they are just synonymous, i.e. people who practice MMA/NHB seem to do so for competition. That's just my perception, could be totally wrong.

I think I would agree with you that the "basics" of WCK should serve just as well in an NHB-type environment, leaving out the thorn-y issue of grappling and groundfighting. I definitely don't think that the "dangerous techniques" can make up for insufficient cardio.

So basically you're saying it's a pure skills gap then? I can see your point because I just find it hard to believe that WCK is so fundamentally flawed. The modern practitioners need to put in the hard work like their predecessors.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I think that there is a very viable argument that some techniques, which will work quite well on the street, are not suitable for the ring or competition. No matter how much you want to deny it competition by its very nature includes rules designed to insure the safety of its participants.

As to the specific techniques of eye gouges and such; I think that you are missing a simple point. The ability to apply such a brutal technique does not dictate that is the only thing you can do. I agree that one should be able to fight with punches and other “traditional” methods and not rely only on “brutal” techniques. However, I think that if someone attacks you on the street they kind of deserve whatever you give them.

I teach and stress using “dirty” tactics to all of my students. We regularly use the Nasal Septum as a control point as it is one of my favorites. It is quite easy to apply and the results are usually consistent regardless of the opponent’s size or strength. It is one of the more simple methods to teach someone to use to apply in a real fight, which has a high degree of success. I am basing this on more than a few years as a Police Officer and also from working and teaching defensive tactics in a prison. In addition, several of my students have worked in hospitals with mental wards where they found that strikes did little to the “patient” while the types of techniques we use worked quite well. One of the things I like is that you still have the option to strike; as a matter of fact it is actually easier to strike someone than to try and apply a control. Still, if you sidestep a punch and sweep the nasal septum you may be quite happy with the result as you can take a person down very easily or you can hold him in an unstable position while still upright. Not sure if this is being explained properly but it works great.

I think that WC by its very nature has to give something up to be applied to the ring. There is a brutality, which should, IMHO, be present when the art is applied properly in a real fight. The ring does not allow such a carry over. Now I have no problem with people taking WC to the ring and, modifying their approach to compete. That is there desire and it is fine. However, to turn around and say that those people who don’t adhere to your line of thinking must be wrong or can not fight is a bit shortsighted, IMO.

Each and every one of us brings something to the table. Some may have a bit of real life experience while others have a good deal of ring experience. Each is viable and deserves respect. But each is a different animal. A real street fight, despite some people’s musings, is not a game and the likelihood of injury is quite real. Thus the attacker deserves to be broken up and severely injured!!

As I have said before on this forum; there are many people who are much better at WC than I, but I am still quite confident in my ability to survive on the street and this is what I try to pass on to my students. My Sifu thinks that I am a bit too extreme in my methods. We have affectionately termed the Philly approach as Thug Wing Chun. At the last seminar, which we hosted for Sifu everyone joked about, how getting across the parking lot could be an adventure. Suffice it to say I teach people how to fight and survive. The approach I use is based on Wing Chun with all of its dirty tricks and brutal methods. It is also geared towards the average person who does not have the luxury of spending hours in the gym to get into the best shape possible. Our approach also turns away more people than will join as many of our visitors and prospective students do not want the brutality of our approach. But, I do not run a “commercial” school for profit so I kind of could care less. I have seen several of my students with less than 7 months of training take down several supposed experienced martial artists, both Wing Chun and other styles, with very simple quick efficient and brutal techniques. However, in none of these instances did the use of such brutal or dirty tactics necessitate the harming of the opponent. The control we practice allows us to take it to that level if needed but it is not a requirement that you hurt someone, if your only option is to punch and kick you may have less options if hurting someone is not your goal.

I admire everyone who practices and I truly do admit to the many benefits of being in better physical shape. However, I believe that one of the beauties of Wing Chun is that it is effective for not just the great athlete but also the out of shape average Joe too.

Peace,

Dave

[Vajramusti]

Good post Dave.

Joy

[t_niehoff]

Hi Dave,

Dave wrote:

I think that there is a very viable argument that some techniques, which will work quite well on the street, are not suitable for the ring or competition. No matter how much you want to deny it competition by its very nature includes rules designed to insure the safety of its participants.

**Yes, that's true but the advantage is that then we can practice full-out. Although it is counter-intuitive, the limitations actually make one better. This was the paradigm shift that Kano realized.

As to the specific techniques of eye gouges and such; I think that you are missing a simple point. The ability to apply such a brutal technique does not dictate that is the only thing you can do. I agree that one should be able to fight with punches and other “traditional” methods and not rely only on “brutal” techniques. However, I think that if someone attacks you on the street they kind of deserve whatever you give them.

**But it works both ways -- if you can eye gouge, so can they; if you can groin kick, so can they. What makes you think you are better dealing with these situations than they are? What it comes down to is that they are things you never really practice, never really practice against, and you hope they'll work.

I teach and stress using “dirty” tactics to all of my students. We regularly use the Nasal Septum as a control point as it is one of my favorites. It is quite easy to apply and the results are usually consistent regardless of the opponent’s size or strength. It is one of the more simple methods to teach someone to use to apply in a real fight, which has a high degree of success.

**This is a great point -- no it doesn't work. It's pure nonsense. This is the kind of stuff folks who don't fight teach, and they believe it because it works in cooperative settings or someone has made it work against some stiff. But try it against anyone with any level of skill and it will fail miserably.

I am basing this on more than a few years as a Police Officer and also from working and teaching defensive tactics in a prison. In addition, several of my students have worked in hospitals with mental wards where they found that strikes did little to the “patient” while the types of techniques we use worked quite well.

**Why do you think NHB fighters, BJJ fighters, etc. don't use the "Nasal Septum Control"? Because they've never seen it?

One of the things I like is that you still have the option to strike; as a matter of fact it is actually easier to strike someone than to try and apply a control. Still, if you sidestep a punch and sweep the nasal septum you may be quite happy with the result as you can take a person down very easily or you can hold him in an unstable position while still upright. Not sure if this is being explained properly but it works great.

**Go to a NHB gym and try it. When you regain consciousness, you may reevaluate that.

I think that WC by its very nature has to give something up to be applied to the ring. There is a brutality, which should, IMHO, be present when the art is applied properly in a real fight. The ring does not allow such a carry over.

**I see, WCK is too brutal for the ring. Gotcha. Yeah, those NHB/MMA fighter are awfully lucky that don't have to tangle with a crowd like us with out nasal septum controls. ;)

Now I have no problem with people taking WC to the ring and, modifying their approach to compete. That is there desire and it is fine. However, to turn around and say that those people who don’t adhere to your line of thinking must be wrong or can not fight is a bit shortsighted, IMO.

**If you nasal septum control works so well, why can't that work in the ring? So far, you haven't told me anything that you do that won't work in a ring.

Each and every one of us brings something to the table. Some may have a bit of real life experience while others have a good deal of ring experience. Each is viable and deserves respect. But each is a different animal. A real street fight, despite some people’s musings, is not a game and the likelihood of injury is quite real. Thus the attacker deserves to be broken up and severely injured!!

**I've been in streetfights and never injured. I've been severely injured in training (sparring). Fighting involves a risk, regardless of the venue.

As I have said before on this forum; there are many people who are much better at WC than I, but I am still quite confident in my ability to survive on the street and this is what I try to pass on to my students. My Sifu thinks that I am a bit too extreme in my methods. We have affectionately termed the Philly approach as Thug Wing Chun. At the last seminar, which we hosted for Sifu everyone joked about, how getting across the parking lot could be an adventure. Suffice it to say I teach people how to fight and survive. The approach I use is based on Wing Chun with all of its dirty tricks and brutal methods.

**Once again, it comes down to "dangerous techniques" . . .

It is also geared towards the average person who does not have the luxury of spending hours in the gym to get into the best shape possible. Our approach also turns away more people than will join as many of our visitors and prospective students do not want the brutality of our approach. But, I do not run a “commercial” school for profit so I kind of could care less. I have seen several of my students with less than 7 months of training take down several supposed experienced martial artists, both Wing Chun and other styles, with very simple quick efficient and brutal techniques. However, in none of these instances did the use of such brutal or dirty tactics necessitate the harming of the opponent.

**If that's true, then why can't these "brutal techniques and dirty tactics" work in the ring?

The control we practice allows us to take it to that level if needed but it is not a requirement that you hurt someone, if your only option is to punch and kick you may have less options if hurting someone is not your goal.

I admire everyone who practices and I truly do admit to the many benefits of being in better physical shape. However, I believe that one of the beauties of Wing Chun is that it is effective for not just the great athlete but also the out of shape average Joe too.

**An out-of-shape boxer can beat a chump too.

[anerlich]

I see WC as a traditional TCMA for self-development and actualisation.

Sports require sports-specific training. Strictly adhering to WC or any other TMA, for the sake of it will IMHO hinder rather than improve your chances of sporting success.

For citizen's self defense, martial skill is arguably the least important attribute to develop. As discussed in "Gift of Fear" and "Strong on Defense".

Those of you with an aversion to cardio should realise that you are several lthousand times more likely to die from lifestyle related heart disease than as a result of a violent assault. If you want to train for "survival", do the math and determine what's actually important.

Regarding "sport" and "street", it's all been said so much better before:

http://www.straightblastgym.com/problem.htm

[Sihing73]

Hi Terrence,

I am glad you think that the nasal septum is not a realisitc technique and will not work against a resisting opponent. I guess all the times I used it, for example while making an arrest the other guy just went ahead and cooperated out of the goodness of his heart. I am sure he was happy to be on his way to jail :rolleyes:

I guess we will have to disagree as you are an advocate of the "ring" and NHB type of events and seem to feel that is the standard to be measured against. I am glad you have been in real street fights and not been hurt, I am not so sure that this is the result of skill or luck. I hope you never get involved in a real fight where you are hurt.

I have no desire to enter any type of NHB events and I fully admit to not being in shape to do so even if I wanted to. I do however leave my door open to ANYONE who wishes to visit and see if things like a nasal septum would work for real. I also fully admit to cheating to insure that I win :D

Peace,

Dave

[kj]

In reality, however, even "streetfights" rarely involve these "foul tactics" -- and for several reasons: 1) the overwhelming majority of "streetfights" aren't life-or-death affairs and so don't warrant or legally permit such behavior (so if your fighting method relies on these things, you'll either get your ass kicked unless it turns into a fight to the death because you can't use your weapons or you'll end up in prison for maiming or seriously injuring someone that took a swing at you - assuming those things actually worked for you). <deletia>

A brief observation on the above theoretical and generalized premise.

I don't presume to know or make assertions on the nature of Terence's or others' "streetfights"; given different circumstances, motivations and individual natures there is a legitimate possibility that the overwhelming "majority" are indeed not life-or-death affairs. In my case however, (for example purposes only), "streetfights" involving me would have a considerable potential of being or becoming life-or-death affairs. All probabilities (or risk exposures) are not equal, and generalizations have inherent limitations.

Offered at face value without concern of making any other point, nor with intention to derail in-progress or future arguments. Please carry on. :o

Regards,
- kj

[YungChun]

Sports require sports-specific training. Strictly adhering to WC or any other TMA, for the sake of it will IMHO hinder rather than improve your chances of sporting success.


So does that apply to Muay Thai or BJJ?

How about Muay Thai AND BJJ?

How about Wing Chun AND BJJ?

If Ving Tsun Kuen can’t handle itself as a fighting style along side the likes of Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Boxing, etc, then Ving Tsun Kuen is but a relic; Like a beloved antique teapot, now cracked and fragile, it sits displayed on a shelf as a testament to its one time functionality and usefulness. :(

[Vajramusti]

In reality, however, even "streetfights" rarely involve these "foul tactics" -- and for several reasons: 1) the overwhelming majority of "streetfights" aren't life-or-death affairs and so don't warrant or legally permit such behavior (so if your fighting method relies on these things, you'll either get your ass kicked unless it turns into a fight to the death because you can't use your weapons or you'll end up in prison for maiming or seriously injuring someone that took a swing at you - assuming those things actually worked for you). <deletia>

((Difficult to generaize about all street fights. And "the law" is not always on the mind of participants))



In my case however, (for example purposes only), "streetfights" involving me would have a considerable potential of being or becoming life-or-death affairs.

((KJ is correct. Street events are not always two machos going at each other))







If Ving Tsun Kuen can’t handle itself as a fighting style along side the likes of Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Boxing, etc, then Ving Tsun Kuen is but a relic;


((WC is not a relic. It can be functional. Dont care to post another long story)) Joy

[Edmund]

Hi Terence,

Considering the fact that WC people have not done particularly well at any of the NHB, MT, etc. sports it seems like the non-fighters have some insight. :)

If you believe WC IS suitable for these sports then where's some actual success in them?

From my POV, most WC people aren't going to be competitive at NHB since they aren't that generally good at grappling. Regardless of the rules involved.

In kickboxing, they aren't that good at kicking....

In boxing maybe WCers have some cross over but seriously I doubt they would go that far in boxing. Maybe I'm being a bit cynical.

It's all well and good to *propose* that WC should excel at whatever sport but given the status quo the actual chances of it happening aren't that good, are they?

WC in some senses is an antique. But a lot of people enjoy it regardless. It's not useless but it's not going to be the most useful in NHB sport.

[SAAMAG]

Hi Terence,

Considering the fact that WC people have not done particularly well at any of the NHB, MT, etc. sports it seems like the non-fighters have some insight. :)

If you believe WC IS suitable for these sports then where's some actual success in them?

From my POV, most WC people aren't going to be competitive at NHB since they aren't that generally good at grappling. Regardless of the rules involved.

In kickboxing, they aren't that good at kicking....

In boxing maybe WCers have some cross over but seriously I doubt they would go that far in boxing. Maybe I'm being a bit cynical.

It's all well and good to *propose* that WC should excel at whatever sport but given the status quo the actual chances of it happening aren't that good, are they?

WC in some senses is an antique. But a lot of people enjoy it regardless. It's not useless but it's not going to be the most useful in NHB sport.

I don't know why more people see this. That was right on. Finally someone that knows that this style isn't "complete", and that there are things that it just simply doesn't work well in. The antiquity of it depends on the person though...some adapt to todays needs...most don't.

[Ernie]

I don't know why more people see this. That was right on. Finally someone that knows that this style isn't "complete", and that there are things that it just simply doesn't work well in. The antiquity of it depends on the person though...some adapt to todays needs...most don't.




Perhaps a different way to look at it, if you view a style or system based on techniques, verbatim applications of a set of forms, [the branches and leaves of the tree]
Then no style will ever be ‘’ inserting catch phrase ‘’ a complete system.

I have never understood why people look at systems and techniques as ways to fight, this an external and limited approach so there will always be counters and arguments that go both ways.

[It’s why I never get involved in technique application discussions just makes no sense]

But if you look at from the trunk of the tree [the core attributes] were the roots are your natural human skill sets, feeling, speed, power, timing, adaptability [mind]

And systems or styles are simply ways to expose, develop, and refine these natural human skills.

Then you can grow in anything that you do, since you base it off of *you*

I feel that wing Chun offers you a great lab to find the seeds to the skill set, with out the abuse of more hard core systems, now what you do with these seeds
Is up to you

If you view wing Chun as a training system, skill development, maximizing body mechanics
Then these skills are transferable into anything you do.
But if you view it as techniques and poses, then you are simply shaking the leaves
;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

While I am a big advocate of crosstraining in Catch wrestling (or some other form of grappling) - and some boxing footwork and moves, and Muay-Thai clinchwork for "completeness"....nonethless I don't think that lack of completeness is the answer to why Wing Chun traditionally has not done well in sportive-type martial art tournaments and NHB.

I think the biggest reasons have already been covered earlier on this thread. The 0 to 100 factor - as I like to call it. The street-oriented wing chun approach (ie. - it's all about 100%...including the use of "dirty tactics" - instead of a more progressively modulated sparring program with protective gear and certain "rules").

Consider the following - which was taken from the Matt Thornton article that Andrew Nerlich referred us to:

"Try reading the posts at the "street" forums. Many tend to read like angry notes from disgruntled 13-year-old boys. There is talk of "tearing out the mo-fo's eyes", biting, and various vicious things that can be done to the attackers. The posts speak to an intense anger and fear in the writers...but if these same people...went into a more contact orientated, healthy, and sane sports environment, with "alive-arts" such as boxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Muay thai, judo, and other "sports" systems. In that type of "alive-training" they will not only gain real skill within a particular delivery system of fighting, they will also achieve a higher level of personal conditioning, become used to a higher level of contact, understand exactly what an aggressive, resisting attacker feels like, and learn to perform under a certain amount of stress. They will also gain a real sense of peace that comes with understanding how to actually move the human body in effective ways against aggressive and dangerous attackers."

And then he goes on to say this:

"I remember a seminar Years ago where Rickson Gracie was asked this exact same thing about eye gouging and the "street". He related that although he had to fight in the street and defend himself many times as he was growing up in Brazil, that even thinking about gouging peoples eyeballs, or biting them, is not something he would ever want to start doing. The thought itself is unhealthy to a human, and Jiu-Jitsu is supposed to be about health and well being. "

Now let 's relate what Thornton wrote to this interchange earlier on this thread between Terence and Dave:

"I think that there is a very viable argument that some techniques, which will work quite well on the street, are not suitable for the ring or competition. No matter how much you want to deny it competition by its very nature includes rules designed to insure the safety of its participants." (Dave)

**Yes, that's true but the advantage is that then we can practice full-out. Although it is counter-intuitive, the limitations actually make one better. This was the paradigm shift that Kano realized. (Terence)

"As to the specific techniques of eye gouges and such; I think that you are missing a simple point. The ability to apply such a brutal technique does not dictate that is the only thing you can do. I agree that one should be able to fight with punches and other “traditional” methods and not rely only on “brutal” techniques. However, I think that if someone attacks you on the street they kind of deserve whatever you give them." (Dave)

**But it works both ways -- if you can eye gouge, so can they; if you can groin kick, so can they. What makes you think you are better dealing with these situations than they are? What it comes down to is that they are things you never really practice, never really practice against, and you hope they'll work. (Terence)

THE POINT THAT TERENCE MADE about Kano and the paradoxical paradigm shift is the missing key to unlock the entire puzzle, imo.

Wing Chun practitioners/students/fighters will make enormous leaps in terms of fighting skill, conditioning, and street-preparedness...and yes...true confidence...if they adopt such training methods...simply because...

THEY WILL BE SPENDING MORE TIME ACTUALLY "FIGHTING" (OR CLOSE TO IT BECAUSE OF THE CONTACT AND SPONTANEITY THAT SPARRING PROVIDES)...and less time doing artificial drills - and less time doing endless amounts of chi sao...which is also an ARTIFICIAL starting point in a real fight.

[SAAMAG]

Perhaps the reason were focused on sparring now is because we can be?

Bruce Lee spoke of a person starting with nothing. He learns style and technique, and becomes something. Then he suprasses the techniques and goes back to nothing.

Maybe most are simply stuck in the middle stage? Perhaps we're forgetting the steps we ourselves took to get to the stage of spontaneous reaction in our movements.

All the fixed drills, the lack of aliveness, perhaps it was all just stepping stones to get us to the point where now we are all looking at it differently?

Perhaps looking back in retrospect ones sees more clearly how the training could have been developed more efficiently?

[Hendrik]

SLT/SNT = Bicycle.

and Biking is a sport. So, riding on SLT/SNT is a sport. right?

[sihing]

Perhaps the reason were focused on sparring now is because we can be?

Bruce Lee spoke of a person starting with nothing. He learns style and technique, and becomes something. Then he suprasses the techniques and goes back to nothing.

Maybe most are simply stuck in the middle stage? Perhaps we're forgetting the steps we ourselves took to get to the stage of spontaneous reaction in our movements.

All the fixed drills, the lack of aliveness, perhaps it was all just stepping stones to get us to the point where now we are all looking at it differently?

Perhaps looking back in retrospect ones sees more clearly how the training could have been developed more efficiently?


Looking back in retrospect and realizing that the training could have been done more efficiently and even more quickly. This is where the Sifu, Coach or Mentor comes in. They have the experience already and know all the short cuts, therefore they should be able to bring you to the very same point in development in less time.

Is experience the best teacher? Or is someone else's experience the best teacher? If the goal is the same (Wing Chun fighting skill for example), and the Sifu, Coach or Mentor has already achieved that goal then someone else's experience is the best teacher. Combine that with your own experience and you will achieve success in Wing Chun.

I think most are stuck on the middle stages, trying to make the fixed drills no longer fixed but random and spontaneous, so that one is capable to use all the tools in the right time and space. Sparring or whatever you want to call it has to be implemented sooner or later in one's training, to test the skills learned up to that point, and progressively the sparring gets more intense and realistic. Also if one's cardio is lacking that will have to be brought up to par so that one is capable to participate in the sparring and more advanced things that need to take place to complete the circle. The question is how often and how long does one have to continue this procedure. If you are competiting with the Wing Chun then I would recommend continuing this training until you are no longer competiting, but if that is not your focus, then once you have obtained the skills you can maintain them allot easier, and spar, train less frequently, but the intensity when you train should be high. The reason why I think this works is that at a high level of skill you should know what to do and how to do it, for yourself, especially if you are a teacher. You know your body and your Wing Chun as at this stage there is no separation in your daily life and your Wing Chun. You will be using it all day everyday, and if you are smart about it you will be using your imagination to supplement the times when physical training is not available. The mind does not know the difference between something that is really experienced and something that is vividly imagined, and since the experienced Wing Chun practitioner has plenty of experience to draw upon you should be able to practice in your mind, because this is the place where the training really has to happen. The beginner cannot do this as he/she has nothing to draw upon in regards to experience.

James

[SevenStar]

Is experience the best teacher? Or is someone else's experience the best teacher? If the goal is the same (Wing Chun fighting skill for example), and the Sifu, Coach or Mentor has already achieved that goal then someone else's experience is the best teacher.

I disagree with that. your experience in fighting will not completely help me. you can spend all day telling me what it's like in a street fight, or froma sport perspective, what to expect in a ring. But until I do it for myself, I will never REALLY know. Not only does that limit you, it also has an impact on whomever you teach, as they aren't learning from your experience, but rather that of your teacher... eventually, there will be a break down because you will have people trying to teach experience they neither they nor their teacher have had.

a quote from "The Perfect Weapon" comes to mind"

"I have shown you the dragon, but you have not seen him"


The mind does not know the difference between something that is really experienced and something that is vividly imagined, and since the experienced Wing Chun practitioner has plenty of experience to draw upon you should be able to practice in your mind, because this is the place where the training really has to happen. The beginner cannot do this as he/she has nothing to draw upon in regards to experience.

[/QUOTE]

using that logic, we could theoretcially increase our fighting effectiveness merely by putting focused thought into fighting and how we'd react to a situation. Here's the rub though... your mind may not know the difference between reality and vivid imagination, but does your body?

[MasterKiller]

using that logic, we could theoretcially increase our fighting effectiveness merely by putting focused thought into fighting and how we'd react to a situation. Here's the rub though... your mind may not know the difference between reality and vivid imagination, but does your body?

Studies show that people who visualize shooting baskets all day can increase their accuarcy as much if not more than people who actually shoot baskets all day.
For example:

GROUP A:
Had to practice shooting baskets from the foul line everyday for 30 minutes.

GROUP B:
Had to sit comfortably in a chair and for 15 minutes mentally picture themselves making perfect shots from the foul line. Then they had to actually practice physically for 15 minutes shooting baskets from the foul line.

GROUP C:
Had to sit comfortably in a chair and practice mentally shooting perfect shots from the foul line. They were to practice mentally for 30 minutes everyday, without touching a basketball.

The three groups continued their practice session each day for ten days. On day eleven they were taken to the basketball court and each student shot 20 times from the foul line and the results were recorded and compared to the original scores.


GROUP A: IMPROVED 10%

GROUP B: IMPROVED 22%

GROUP C: IMPROVED 33%

Phil Jackson teaches visualization techniques to his players. I think his rings speak for themselves.

http://www.atomicballcleaner.50megs.com/custom2.html

[SevenStar]

I'm aware of visualization, but I'm willing to bet there is a difference between visualizing my form and visualizing myself slipping a punch from an angered attacker. I will make my form better, but what about the actual act of slipping the punch?

[Vajramusti]

Phil Jackson is very well read and aware of the Buddhist unified approach to
awareness stringing together physical and mental activity.

Actually many Asian approaches and world views by osmosis has penetrated
many activities in the west--- just as many western sports has spread world wide.
A very diverse global civlization is in the making- though it's future depends on the violence which is a downside of the globalization - but that is removed from the focus of the forum.

[MasterKiller]

I'm aware of visualization, but I'm willing to bet there is a difference between visualizing my form and visualizing myself slipping a punch from an angered attacker. I will make my form better, but what about the actual act of slipping the punch? Ball goes in the hole.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Is experience the best teacher? Or is someone else's experience the best teacher? If the goal is the same (Wing Chun fighting skill for example), and the Sifu, Coach or Mentor has already achieved that goal then someone else's experience is the best teacher."


OH MY GOD !!!

Now I've heard everything.

Let's hope this person never has to put that theory to the test while defending loved one's against a real attack on the street someday.

LOL

[Sihing73]

THE POINT THAT TERENCE MADE about Kano and the paradoxical paradigm shift is the missing key to unlock the entire puzzle, imo.

Wing Chun practitioners/students/fighters will make enormous leaps in terms of fighting skill, conditioning, and street-preparedness...and yes...true confidence...if they adopt such training methods...simply because...

THEY WILL BE SPENDING MORE TIME ACTUALLY "FIGHTING" (OR CLOSE TO IT BECAUSE OF THE CONTACT AND SPONTANEITY THAT SPARRING PROVIDES)...and less time doing artificial drills - and less time doing endless amounts of chi sao...which is also an ARTIFICIAL starting point in a real fight.

Hello,

While I am sure this sounds great I have to question its actual truth in practice. I am hard pressed to think of very many Judoka who are considred "dangerous" or great street fighters. Judo was developed from more dangerous arts specifically to allow the safety of practice. It was also developed with a specific agenda during a time period in which Japanese Martial Arts were viewed with distates and suspicion by the West. By taking the more applicable and "dangerous" art of Jui Jitsu and changing the art into a "Do" art, Kano provided an art which was not only safer for practice but was by its very nature and definition more geared towards person developement NOT COMBAT.

Judo, to be street effective must include Atemi Wazi. This is not to say that Judo can not be applied on the street effectively. Just that the nature of Judo training today is not geared towards street effectiveness. In order to be realisitic for self defense it must be modified. Another fine example is Tai Chi. Taught the way it is by most in the U.S. and other parts of the world, Tai Chi is not thought of as a great martial art geared towards realistic fighting. Many of its practicioners are fine in the ring and are even great athletes. However there are few who are ready for the street.

Training for competition is not the same as training for the street. I would challenge all of those claiming that you need to be an effective ring fighter to be good on the street to first of all let the rest of us know where you are all hiding your wonderful ring records with all of the victories showing that your approahc to Wing Chun is the right way. Then, enter the type of fights advocated by groups like the Dog Brothers and see if your approach stands up to the task.

Peace,

Dave

[SevenStar]

Ball goes in the hole.


*waving finger*

basketball goal no hit back....

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I am hard pressed to think of very many Judoka who are considered "dangerous" or great street fighters. "

WOULD YOU be saying that if one of them decided to continue choking you out even though you tapped - as in streetfight...(ie.- not a sporting event).

[SevenStar]

Hello,

While I am sure this sounds great I have to question its actual truth in practice. I am hard pressed to think of very many Judoka who are considred "dangerous" or great street fighters. Judo was developed from more dangerous arts specifically to allow the safety of practice. It was also developed with a specific agenda during a time period in which Japanese Martial Arts were viewed with distates and suspicion by the West. By taking the more applicable and "dangerous" art of Jui Jitsu and changing the art into a "Do" art, Kano provided an art which was not only safer for practice but was by its very nature and definition more geared towards person developement NOT COMBAT.


Plenty of people back then thought that as well. The result was a series of tournaments between kano's judoka and the jujutsu teams initally of various police departments and later with the group which was considered to be the strongest jujutsu school in the country. Kano's guys swpet the first police tournaments. Against the STRONGEST COMBAT SCHOOL IN THE COUNTRY, they won all but three matches - two they lost and one was a draw. The key was the fact that kano's guys believed in randori. most of the jujutsu schools in japan at the time frowned on this. They thought that their deadly combat techniques were best practiced in drills, as they could not safely practice them. By "watering down" his techniques and making them practiceable, kano was able to gain an awesome advantage when compared to other schools.

As for thinking of judoka who are known as street fighters... think about it... how would you know?


if you're not a judoka (I don't know whether you were or not), you don't know any of the top level players in the judo world and what experiences they have had. I am not a WC guy. Consequently, I can't think of anyone off the top of my head from a WC camp who is supposedly a vicious streetfighter other than bozteppe...and I've heard various oppinons on him. Not only that, but who goes around publicizing street experiences? judoka have a venue they can compete in. If I want to gain students, I'm not gonna tell them that I am undefeated in street fights. I will let them know that I am a national level judo competitor. Why?

1. it can be verified
2. not all students may be interested in being a good streetfighter
3. the distaste associated with streetfighting.



Judo, to be street effective must include Atemi Wazi.


Actually, No, it doesn't. All I have to do is understand distance, technically. I have to control you and your space. As long as I am able to get into clinching range with you, I can fight.


This is not to say that Judo can not be applied on the street effectively. Just that the nature of Judo training today is not geared towards street effectiveness. In order to be realisitic for self defense it must be modified.


Not in the way that you are thinking. The biggest modification I would advocate would be utilizing under/over hooks and different methods of grabbing. If you are fighting someone shirtless or in a flimsy top, you may have trouble holding them unless you utilize hooks.


Another fine example is Tai Chi. Taught the way it is by most in the U.S. and other parts of the world, Tai Chi is not thought of as a great martial art geared towards realistic fighting. Many of its practicioners are fine in the ring and are even great athletes.

really? Who? off hand, I can only think of a few - the guys from northern lights taiji and max chen... but he also trains with san shou guys, so he may not be considered a pure taiji guy to some. Also, sami barik trains in other CMA styles.



...........

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Sevenstar,

FWIW I had a Black Belt in Judo before I started Wing Chun. I also competed in several regional tourneys and did quite well. My Judo instructor was a guy named Lou Moyerman. So I am not just basing my opinion on second hand knowledge. Judo can be effective but I would give you this challenge; next time you are in the dojo and preparing for Randori take off the top of your gi and see how many techniques still work :) Judo is an excellent art but it is not by its nature geared towards street combat. Sorry if we disagree but it is a sport and was developed as a sport. I would love to see someone apply a sholder throw against a jab in real life. On the street sweeps would be more effective. I am not taking anything away from Judo but to apply it on the street as it is taught in a sport dojo would require exceptional skill and the average person would not fare well. I know that in Britian the jodo schools there used to say they expected to take up to 5 punches/strikes before they got in to apply a throw. The theory was that once the throw was applied the fight would be theirs. Traditional judo forms do include defenses, even seated, against weapons so there is some potential, bt again most trained judoka are in it for sport, not combat and this will carry over to how they fight.

Victor,

There are many ways to apply a choke and if I am unfortunate to be in the recieving position of a well applied choke I doubt if I would care if the person choking me were a Judoka or a street thug :p However I do think I would prefer a sport oriented judoka then the more pragmatic street thug iregardless of the method of attack. More than technique will come into play, intent is a big factor.

Peace,

Dave

[Edmund]

While I am a big advocate of crosstraining in Catch wrestling (or some other form of grappling) - and some boxing footwork and moves, and Muay-Thai clinchwork for "completeness"....nonethless I don't think that lack of completeness is the answer to why Wing Chun traditionally has not done well in sportive-type martial art tournaments and NHB.

I think the biggest reasons have already been covered earlier on this thread. The 0 to 100 factor - as I like to call it. The street-oriented wing chun approach (ie. - it's all about 100%...including the use of "dirty tactics" - instead of a more progressively modulated sparring program with protective gear and certain "rules").


I'd be of the reverse opinion.

Even if most WC people did a sparring program (I don't consider it that rare to have WC people sparring each other actually), they wouldn't have the "completeness" to compete in any of the sports mentioned.

Suprisingly good discussions so far...


On the "street" thing:
I think the "style too dangerous" statement is an excuse not to spar.

Certainly there are dangerous techniques which shouldn't be practiced on someone. But there's plenty of less dangerous techniques that can be (using protective equipment or common sense rules).

Doing sparring doesn't mean that sports success is the goal. I don't think that's the goal for a lot of people. It's out of reach for most people really because of the level of fitness needed. For some it would take a lifestyle reversal and a body transplant to get close to fit enough.

But everyone should spar as a way to practice doing WC. They can practice the techniques that are safe to spar with at a pace they can handle.

Sports can serve as an example of how to do certain techniques - They show what can work. WC people may never be at that level of physical ability but they can mimic as good as they can.

You may feel you don't want to mimic kickboxing but it's more a case of finding what good elements you do want to mimic. It's far better than mimicking something that is just flat-out not applicable like a WC robot.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I want to make a clarification so everyone understands where I am coming from;

I am not against sparring and I believe that sparring certainly has its place in training. What I am against is those who advocate that if you do not train for or like NHB types of events you are missing the boat. I am sorry but I have very strong doubts that just because someone is in better physical shape and trains and spars in the ring, that they are now ready for a real life encounter. While the better physcial attributes and timing developed in contact sparring can be of great benefit they do not necessarily insure that one is ready for a real all out street encounter.

On the other side of the coin sitting behind a keyboard and advocating this or that without the corresponding real life experience is just as bad, if not more so. I would agree that making claims that your techniques are "too dangerous" to use is in many cases a cop out. I can assure you that we not only train with things like eye gouges and such we also include them in our sparring. Sometimes peple do get hurt but thus far such injuries have been minor. However, we have always been very open to allowing visitors to use whatever method they want to try when they visit. So far this has been an excellent learning method and has opened our eyes to many things.

I believe that every art can be applied to the street, even Tae Bo ;) . One of the goals I have in training is to have and be able to pass on to my students an effective method of combat which can be utilized by the AVERAGE person. Keep in mind that most street encounters will not be against the likes of Frank Shamrock or one of the Gracies.

Sevenstar,

As to the original series of "events" between Kano and others; Keep in mind that many of Kanos' people were trained in other arts, including Ju Jitsu, as well and brought this exeprience and in some cases techniques with them. Also the rules for these early events were much differen than those of today. Much like early boxking allowed many techniques which today would be considered illegal. I would be impressed if a simlar type of event were held today and the results were the same. Do you think that the average sport trained Judoka today would fare just as well if her matched skill against the average Japanese Police officer or SWAT type of trained officer??

Victor,

As to your comment regarding the one made by Sihing:
I would submit that it is the very experience which your instructor has to offer which makes their instruction valuable. When you teach your students,don't you draw on youre experience ot helpd guide them? If not then what does traing with you, or any Sifu, offer?

Peace,

Dave

[YungChun]

Even if most WC people did a sparring program (I don't consider it that rare to have WC people sparring each other actually), they wouldn't have the "completeness" to compete in any of the sports mentioned.


Really. Why is that?

The only reason WCK people wouldn't be competitive is because they can't fight. Really, it's that simple, this isn't calculus. If you can fight with your WCK then you can compete, if you can't then you can't.

Either WCK is a fighting style or it isn't. :rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

FWIW- lots of nonsense in re generalizations about wing chun when folks are really talking about their own wing chun.

FWIW, I have had two good friends who were national AAU champions in judo, one AAU champ in boxing, a national muay thai champ in Thailand. Fairtex academy
in MT used to be here and I have played with MT folks for fun, judo folks, wrestlers
in order to get a sense of them. I have confidence in my wc.

There are brothers and a sister who have walked through various ma tournaments to test their wc stuff and have confidence in their wc. There are wc folks i know who have been in streetfights and are satisfied with their wc.

You test your equipment in various ways.

Lots of good wc folks I know have been in good comparison of skills. Most of them are not on the net and the net forums createa distorted view of what is going on in many areas of wing chun.

UFC, Pride etc are media driven events (ehre the producers make the money) and not every one regards them as prime examples of fighting.


And in turn- the UFC folks dont enter top flight boxing fights- me thinks many would get wiped out. Different venues, different rules, different monetary rewards.
Different kinds of activities. Each satisfies different groups of people and audiences.

Call me amused or puzzled--- doesn't matter. I know for Van, Edmund and many it will go in one ear and out the other,

[Edmund]

Really. Why is that?

The only reason WCK people wouldn't be competitive is because they can't fight. Really, it's that simple, this isn't calculus. If you can fight with your WCK then you can compete, if you can't then you can't.

Either WCK is a fighting style or it isn't. :rolleyes:

Not sure if you are being serious or not because by your criteria, it plainly isn't a fighting style. I don't see any fantastic WC wins at the top level of competition in the sports mentioned previously....Hmmm? What sport has WC been competitive in?

Perhaps you are doing a sarcastic impression of Terence and I'm missing the humour. (Who's that ":rolleyes:" directed towards). I don't think his point was that simplistic or worth ridicule...

[Edmund]

FWIW- lots of nonsense in re generalizations about wing chun when folks are really talking about their own wing chun.
..
..
..
Different venues, different rules, different monetary rewards.
Different kinds of activities. Each satisfies different groups of people and audiences.

Call me amused or puzzled--- doesn't matter. I know for Van, Edmund and many it will go in one ear and out the other,

Que?

If anyone's ears are a thoroughfare they're yours. I was making the same point as you from a different perspective.

If you are saying you do compete and win in MT, kickboxing or NHB, you can colour me corrected. But as I understood it, you don't compete and don't want to.

[YungChun]

Not sure if you are being serious or not because by your criteria, it plainly isn't a fighting style. I don't see any fantastic WC wins at the top level of competition in the sports mentioned previously....Hmmm? What sport has WC been competitive in?


My criteria has not been discussed nor is it the topic of this thread.

Either WCK is a fighting system or style or it isn't. If YOUR criteria dictates that any fighting style or system that has not (as far as you know) "won at the top level" can't, then that is your IMO narrow view.

The question was not "Has WCK proven itself in Reality Fighting?" It was if WCK could be applied. IMO any fighting system worth its salt can applied successfully so long as the practitioner is able and willing. There are a multitude of unknown NHB people out there even from Karate schools who use THAT for their standup game. I submit that so long as system involves the traditional weapons of martial arts, e.g. strikes, kicks, knees, elbows, that indeed there is nothing lacking in the art, but rather in the ability of those who claim to practice it. It is a poor workman who blames his tools…

[Vajramusti]

Edmund- lets just say you and I have different criteria for judging the effectiveness
of wing chun. And we have not communicated very well.

[Edmund]

My criteria has not been discussed nor is it the topic of this thread.

Either WCK is a fighting system or style or it isn't. If YOUR criteria dictates that any fighting style or system that has not (as far as you know) "won at the top level" can't, then that is your IMO narrow view.

The question was not "Has WCK proven itself in Reality Fighting?" It was if WCK could be applied. IMO any fighting system worth its salt can applied successfully so long as the practitioner is able and willing. There are a multitude of unknown NHB people out there even from Karate schools who use THAT for their standup game. I submit that so long as system involves the traditional weapons of martial arts, e.g. strikes, kicks, knees, elbows, that indeed there is nothing lacking in the art, but rather in the ability of those who claim to practice it. It is a poor workman who blames his tools…

I don't even understand what point you're trying to address.

I never brought up whether WCK could be applied.
I said it's never been that competitive in sports.
If you don't even care about being competitive in sports then it's a non-issue.

If you want to sit on the fence and say you COULD be super competitive in sports but DON'T want to actually compete ... Then your argument plain stinks of conjecture. Don't brag, if you don't want to back it up.

[anerlich]

GROUP A: IMPROVED 10%

GROUP B: IMPROVED 22%

GROUP C: IMPROVED 33%

Did it really come out that way? Are you SURE that's how the study went?

If so, that study indicates that actual drilling of a skill is a grossly inefficient waste of time, and you're better off visualising it exclusively.

All those training sessions are a complete waste of time, then, huh? Better off just sitting on the benches at the side of the gym and imagining you're training rather than actually training.

After this revelation, why are martial artists, and amateur and pro sportsmen of all codes still doing physical practice? Has the word not got out yet or something?

Should I go to jiu jitsu tonight, or just go home and imagine I was there?

[kj]

Did it really come out that way? Are you SURE that's how the study went?

If so, that study indicates that actual drilling of a skill is a grossly inefficient waste of time, and you're better off visualising it exclusively.

All those training sessions are a complete waste of time, then, huh? Better off just sitting on the benches at the side of the gym and imagining you're training rather than actually training.

After this revelation, why are martial artists, and amateur and pro sportsmen of all codes still doing physical practice? Has the word not got out yet or something?

Should I go to jiu jitsu tonight, or just go home and imagine I was there?

Ha ha. I've seen numerous citings of the data, as I'm sure you and others here have. The results I've seen differed from Rev. Joe W. Commerford's essay as follows:

The group that both practiced and employed visualization improved the most.
The group that only practiced, also improved but not as much as those who combined practice with visualization.
The group that only visualized also improved, but less than the other two groups who actually practiced.

Still, if you're desparate for a night off, at least keep up with the visualizations. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Outstanding and insightful characterization, Ernie.
- kj


Perhaps a different way to look at it, if you view a style or system based on techniques, verbatim applications of a set of forms, [the branches and leaves of the tree]
Then no style will ever be ‘’ inserting catch phrase ‘’ a complete system.

I have never understood why people look at systems and techniques as ways to fight, this an external and limited approach so there will always be counters and arguments that go both ways.

[It’s why I never get involved in technique application discussions just makes no sense]

But if you look at from the trunk of the tree [the core attributes] were the roots are your natural human skill sets, feeling, speed, power, timing, adaptability [mind]

And systems or styles are simply ways to expose, develop, and refine these natural human skills.

Then you can grow in anything that you do, since you base it off of *you*

I feel that wing Chun offers you a great lab to find the seeds to the skill set, with out the abuse of more hard core systems, now what you do with these seeds
Is up to you

If you view wing Chun as a training system, skill development, maximizing body mechanics
Then these skills are transferable into anything you do.
But if you view it as techniques and poses, then you are simply shaking the leaves
;)

[reneritchie]

"iregardless"

That word fills me with anticipointment :(

[Edmund]

Edmund- lets just say you and I have different criteria for judging the effectiveness
of wing chun. And we have not communicated very well.

I'm not judging effectiveness.

I have a similar opinion to Dave.
Sparring has it's place but you don't need to compete in a MT or NHB match - because it isn't a good criteria.

[SAAMAG]

FWIW- lots of nonsense in re generalizations about wing chun when folks are really talking about their own wing chun.

FWIW, I have had two good friends who were national AAU champions in judo, one AAU champ in boxing, a national muay thai champ in Thailand. Fairtex academy
in MT used to be here and I have played with MT folks for fun, judo folks, wrestlers
in order to get a sense of them. I have confidence in my wc.

There are brothers and a sister who have walked through various ma tournaments to test their wc stuff and have confidence in their wc. There are wc folks i know who have been in streetfights and are satisfied with their wc.

You test your equipment in various ways.

Lots of good wc folks I know have been in good comparison of skills. Most of them are not on the net and the net forums createa distorted view of what is going on in many areas of wing chun.

UFC, Pride etc are media driven events (ehre the producers make the money) and not every one regards them as prime examples of fighting.


And in turn- the UFC folks dont enter top flight boxing fights- me thinks many would get wiped out. Different venues, different rules, different monetary rewards.
Different kinds of activities. Each satisfies different groups of people and audiences.

Call me amused or puzzled--- doesn't matter. I know for Van, Edmund and many it will go in one ear and out the other,

I'm sorry Joy did you say something?! :rolleyes:

I couldn't quite hear you with all the wing noise going through my ears.

So basically, you're saying that if we don't agree with you, then we simply aren't listening? I hear exactly what you're saying when you say it (if we can even say that...considering that were typing and actually are reading)

In any case, why would you say something like that? You seem to feel that sparring is not a necessity. I and many others do. You seem to feel wing chun can hold it's own in any venue, I and many others don't. Our realities seem to be different in terms of what is real and what isn't. That's a normal thing. But let he who hasn't sinned cast the first stone my friend. You're just as guilty of "not listening" or simply being closed minded to many views of others here...and have even gone as far as to imply things without being man enough to outright say it. We at least don't beat around the bush when we say things.

The question on this thread, is revolving around why wing chun can't do well in a NHB match. Quite frankly I think that Terence is spot on in the reasons. The only thing we aren't allowed to do is the "dirty" tactics. The same things the other fighters aren't allowed to do. This confinement forces the individuals to focus on the skills of their chosen system, and thereby proving what works and what doesn't (at least between those two individuals) in application. So in theory, there's no reason why it wouldn't work, unless you simply can't make it work. And since there hasn't been any proof of it's effectiveness in any open class arena...this question has been asked.

That is why myself, Vic, Terence and others are proposing that there is a serious problem with training as a whole, based on the current evidence in todays world.

[sihing]

I disagree with that. your experience in fighting will not completely help me. you can spend all day telling me what it's like in a street fight, or froma sport perspective, what to expect in a ring. But until I do it for myself, I will never REALLY know. Not only does that limit you, it also has an impact on whomever you teach, as they aren't learning from your experience, but rather that of your teacher... eventually, there will be a break down because you will have people trying to teach experience they neither they nor their teacher have had.

a quote from "The Perfect Weapon" comes to mind"

"I have shown you the dragon, but you have not seen him"


The mind does not know the difference between something that is really experienced and something that is vividly imagined, and since the experienced Wing Chun practitioner has plenty of experience to draw upon you should be able to practice in your mind, because this is the place where the training really has to happen. The beginner cannot do this as he/she has nothing to draw upon in regards to experience.



using that logic, we could theoretcially increase our fighting effectiveness merely by putting focused thought into fighting and how we'd react to a situation. Here's the rub though... your mind may not know the difference between reality and vivid imagination, but does your body?[/QUOTE]

I think you misunderstood Sevenstar. My reference to someone's else's experience was concerned with strictly training and learning experiences and obtaining skill in your chosen Art form, not street fighting or situations like that as you are correct, you cannot learn about a experience like that through someone else's experience, since no two street fights are exactly the same.

As for vivid imagination, your mind is your body, because the body follows the mind. Again this can only be done IMO to a high level when one already has skills within them and a great understanding of what they want to maintain the skills in. Visualization is well known today, but the thing is a little bit here and a little bit there will not help you much since there is no consistency involved. Once you have obtained the skills, you can maintain it or even increase the skills with visualization techniques on a consistent basis, and also by making the skill a part of your everyday life. When I drive I use I train my perception awareness to check every car within a certain distance of my own car. When walking down the street I can choose to analyze the people ahead of me and learn to read their body language and movements. Although these are simplified examples, more complex ones arise daily and we can utilize our WC all the time if we want to.

These techniques have worked for me, and no complaints so far.

James

[sihing]

"Is experience the best teacher? Or is someone else's experience the best teacher? If the goal is the same (Wing Chun fighting skill for example), and the Sifu, Coach or Mentor has already achieved that goal then someone else's experience is the best teacher."


OH MY GOD !!!

Now I've heard everything.

Let's hope this person never has to put that theory to the test while defending loved one's against a real attack on the street someday.

LOL

If you care to try me please do? I'd be happy to teach this lesson...

I'm not saying that you wouldn't use your own experience also, but if your Sifu, Coach or Mentor has achieved the same goal you want to achieve, doesn't it make logical sense that he/she could get you to achieve that goal faster than you would all by yourself? Read any goal/success orientated book and they usually say find a mentor or someone wiser in the ways of things than you are to counsel you and make the journey quicker with less mistakes (although mistakes are a great learning tool) than the person mentoring you made. Efficiency is the key word here gentlemen.

James

[Vajramusti]

I'm sorry Joy did you say something?!
----------------------------------------

((Yup- and you missed it again!))

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dave:

Maeda...one of Kano's top students who travelled to the West and eventually taught the Gracie's after he settled in Brazil - clearly represents a different approach to judo than what your first instructor did.

.................................................. .............


"Even if most WC people did a sparring program (I don't consider it that rare to have WC people sparring each other actually), they wouldn't have the "completeness" to compete in any of the sports mentioned." (Edmund)

I AGREE...I was just saying that lack of proper sparring was an even bigger problem to surmount.

.................................................. ....


"As to your comment regarding the one made by Sihing:
I would submit that it is the very experience which your instructor has to offer which makes their instruction valuable. When you teach your students,don't you draw on youre experience ot helpd guide them? If not then what does traing with you, or any Sifu, offer?" (Dave)

OF COURSE the experience of the instructor has much to do with the training - but that's different than saying that the instructor's sparring/fighting experience is good enough for me...and therefore I don't have to engage in hard sparring.

THIS IS AN ABSURD STATEMENT...because each and every individual HAS to experience the hard hitting and getting hit hard for themselves in order to understand the true nature of combat - as it applies to them...NOT AS IT APPLIES TO SOMEONE ELSE. The ability to inflict and receive and absorb physical pain and the emotional stress that real fighting (and hard sparring) entails cannot be learned by osmosis.

.................................................. ..........

"FWIW- lots of nonsense in re generalizations about wing chun when folks are really talking about their own wing chun." (Joy)

AND...FWIW...generalizations about what "good" wing chun is (ie. - whatever I, Joy Chauduri, have done and endorse)...is just Joy trying to talk as if "his" wing chun is the only wing chun worthy of the name - without showing ANY evidence that his "methods" could actually work against a skilled fighter of today.

[sihing]

"As to your comment regarding the one made by Sihing:
I would submit that it is the very experience which your instructor has to offer which makes their instruction valuable. When you teach your students,don't you draw on youre experience ot helpd guide them? If not then what does traing with you, or any Sifu, offer?" (Dave)

OF COURSE the experience of the instructor has much to do with the training - but that's different than saying that the instructor's sparring/fighting experience is good enough for me...and therefore I don't have to engage in hard sparring.

THIS IS AN ABSURD STATEMENT...because each and every individual HAS to experience the hard hitting and getting hit hard for themselves in order to understand the true nature of combat - as it applies to them...NOT AS IT APPLIES TO SOMEONE ELSE. The ability to inflict and receive and absorb physical pain and the emotional stress that real fighting (and hard sparring) entails cannot be learned by osmosis.


Since you were too busy trying to discredit my post, you obviously missed the whole point of what I was trying to say. I didn't say that learning from others experience will & can replace sparring or any other training tool. What I said was the lessons learned from another with more experience in your chosen field of study can allow you to learn faster by giving you short cuts, and avoidance of mistakes along your path to learn and absorb. Nothing about my Sifu's experience rendering sparring useless, lol. If that was the case then why did I spar for years and years when I was learning Wing Chun, as advocated by Sifu. Is learning from a WISER person than yourself a good thing to do? IMO it is, maybe you feel differently.

And as for LEARNING HOW TO ABSORB PUNISHMENT, since when is this a criteria for learning how to fight. The idea is to not learn how to take a punch or kick, and avoid it all together, a 130lb woman cannot afford to take one punch from a 200lb man, it could kill them or seriously injure them which could lead to death. Once again your post is in reference to competiton type training and also would lead one to believe that you yourself rely more on physical attributes, like speed, strength or toughness rather than skill sets like timing, distance control and perception abilities along with skill in concept/techniques that is within the Wing Chun system.

James

[Sihing73]

Dave:

Maeda...one of Kano's top students who travelled to the West and eventually taught the Gracie's after he settled in Brazil - clearly represents a different approach to judo than what your first instructor did.
-------------------------------------------------------------
OF COURSE the experience of the instructor has much to do with the training - but that's different than saying that the instructor's sparring/fighting experience is good enough for me...and therefore I don't have to engage in hard sparring.

THIS IS AN ABSURD STATEMENT...because each and every individual HAS to experience the hard hitting and getting hit hard for themselves in order to understand the true nature of combat - as it applies to them...NOT AS IT APPLIES TO SOMEONE ELSE. The ability to inflict and receive and absorb physical pain and the emotional stress that real fighting (and hard sparring) entails cannot be learned by osmosis.
.................................................. ..........

"FWIW- lots of nonsense in re generalizations about wing chun when folks are really talking about their own wing chun." (Joy)

AND...FWIW...generalizations about what "good" wing chun is (ie. - whatever I, Joy Chauduri, have done and endorse)...is just Joy trying to talk as if "his" wing chun is the only wing chun worthy of the name - without showing ANY evidence that his "methods" could actually work against a skilled fighter of today.

Hi Victor,

As I mentioned previously, Kanos early students were of a different breed and most were experts of other systems as well. I would still like you to tell me if you think that the average judoka of today would fare as well as those of the past. If they did another set of "competitions" today with the same groups as yesterday would the results remain the same? I doubt it.

However, we actuall do agree, to a point; :D I will accept that subjecting oneself to hard contact does wonders for both the physical and mental conditioning needed for combat. Whether it is truly needed to survive the street is another matter. Let us consider the plight of pro boxers: How many of them have broken their hands during real life fights? While I would admit to them being great in the ring I question the practicality of any training method which does injury when actually applied. Perhaps their training methods are not as "realistic" as some would claim. On the other hand if I were to face a pro boxer on the street you can bet I would do so with a weapon in my hand whether it be a stick, chain or knife. Now, how does one train to condition for that?????????? Of course this does not mean that I would win as I may still end up on my a** ;)

Consider the reason many poeple take WC or any other MA. If they are looking for an effective method of defense to survive on the street then is there really a need for ring type of training? What is the likelihood of facing someone at that level. Most street fights will occur without warning and by nature be sneaky. Perhaps more important is to train to be able to keep fighting after an initial attack and being injured. I again go to examples from real life where police officers have been severaly injured yet managed to either incapacitate or capture their attackers. In more than one exampe an officer has been shot yet managed to fight back and survive. I wonder how many of them were training like those in NHB events :eek: Perhaps there is more to actually surviving a real life street encounter than the physical skills you develope in the ring????

Both sides of this debate have valid points and neither side has a monopoly on being right. I wonder if there will come a day when each will recognize the value of the other side :confused:

Peace,

Dave

[sihing]

Dave,

Good post. I believe there is value added by the NHB competator and the competitons themselves. It raises the quality level of the Martial Arts in general, and also exposes a portion of a reality factor to those that know the Martial Arts. It isn't easy to fight 30 minutes straight, with less rules than boxing and with less protection, so you have to give them credit where credit is due. But allot of Martial Artist are now using this as a standard by which to compare, "what if you meet a highly skilled fighter on the street" bla bla bla is the catch phase of the new millineum. Not all are into competiting to test one's fighting skill. There are lots of unknown fighters out there with quality skills, using varous methods of training. When it comes to life or death or defense of one's family, would any of us care as to the skill level of the opponent. If the situation was mine to deal with I wouldn't even give them the chance to showcase their high quality skill as I would be on them like flies on sh!t. This to me is the basic foundation of Wing Chun fighting concept. Don't give them the chance to do anything once the fight has started, close the gap and finish it quickly as there are more opponents waiting in the wings. Yes the opponent can apply the same to me as well, but is he fighting for his life or defending his family? The police officer is fighting for his life and a principal when faced with a gun weilding suspect, who is only concerned with getting away and avoiding jail time, different intensity levels and perceptions by each participant, thereby different motivations will dictate allot towards the one that is victorious.

James

[Sihing73]

"iregardless"

That word fills me with anticipointment :(

Hi Rene,

Was that directed towards me :cool:

You know at one time I was able to spell quit well :rolleyes: opps I meant quite

Peace,

Dave

[Sihing73]

Hi James,

I think that you bring up a very good point. If one attacks and such an attack is brutal and efficient then the chances of success are greater. One of the things I stress to my students is to be fluid and open to change but at the same time to always move into the opponent. I like to have them fill the space and get as close as possible, preferably while cutting the angle so as to allow them to attack but require the opponent to have to move in order to attack them. Stepping off the line 45' forward works pretty well for this type of approach. The key is to attack and attack until the opponent is unable to continue. However this can not jst be some type of blind appraoch or just chanin punches, you must remain fluid and be willing and able to change or modify your attacks based on what the opponent gives you.

Hope that makes some sense. I used to advocate giving my opponent a piece of my mind but i have so little to spare nowadays that now I just hit them :D

Peace,

Dave

[Paul T England]

IMHO

The best sportsman (i.e. normally the Winner) will generally have the better physical and mental attributes developed through training and probably a dose of natural ability/genetics. These individual traits will add to the persons style of fighting? are they defensive or offense? punchers or kickers or grapplers? personal experience, what they believe to be effective etc, etc...

So style is very personal (Thats why we have 1001 different wing chun interpretations!)

Next comes the training system, Wing Chun, Boxing, Wrestling etc? After doing boxing for years it might be difficult to change to Hsing I or Wing Chun for example, so your training will start to impact on your personal style. (You can think you are a wing chun man but you have a boxing element to you body mechanics, favoured techniques and strategy!)

Ok back to the issue, can wing chun be used in sport?

Yes if they train in a sports like way (Pro-gym, coach/trainer, alive drilling, development of stratgey etc.)

Wing Chun was not designed/developed for sport. Boxers, BJJ and Wrestlers have an advantage as the MMA events are designed from traditional contact sports!

In 10-20 years we might have more pro-gyms teaching from a wing chun standpoint (Emin Boztepe?, Alan Orr? etc.)

Applied Wing Chun is different to conceptual or theoretical positions but most use this truth to hide weaknesses.

enough mumbling and bad spelling from me....

Paul

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Since you were too busy trying to discredit my post..." (JR)

When are you going to realize that what's going on around here is not about YOU...it's the content of the posts that I'm discrediting.

So again I'm going to say that the following statement (from your earlier post) is FLAWED:

"Is experience the best teacher? Or is someone else's experience the best teacher? If the goal is the same (Wing Chun fighting skill for example), and the Sifu, Coach or Mentor has already achieved that goal then someone else's experience is the best teacher."

SOMEONE ELSE'S EXPERIENCE IS NEVER THE BEST TEACHER...no matter how great one's teacher is - it is up to each and every individual to make those teachings real - and do it in a way that reflects his OWN individuality, body type, strength, speed, flexibility, conditioning, and mental/emotional/spiritual consciousness.

Now as for this:

"And as for LEARNING HOW TO ABSORB PUNISHMENT, since when is this a criteria for learning how to fight. The idea is to not learn how to take a punch or kick..."

NOW THIS IS WHERE the rubber really hits the road...anybody...and I mean ANYBODY...can be hit, or kicked, or grabbed and thrown to the ground, or put in a chokehold, etc.

THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET...in martial arts. of course the idea is NOT to get hit...but that doesn't mean that it will never happen...because it WILL happen from time-to-time.

And when it does - and you're not prepared for it - because you haven't done enough sparring (or a long time has elapsed since you did spar)...YOU'RE TOAST.

Anybody can be taught to hit or kick or throw the other guy...and when two skilled fighters tangle they can both expect to take some punishment - precisely because they're both quality fighters.

But quite often it's the guy with the stronger, tougher mental/emotional makeup (ie.- the guy who can come back and win even though he's been hurt)...he's the one who wins...because he can take punishment - not just dish it out.

And quite frankly...this is so self-evident...that I'm amazed how some people just don't understand this (or refuse to understand this).

but it doesn't change the fact that it is what it is.

NOW BACK TO OUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAM...(martial arts with the "martial" included).

[sihing]

Hi James,

I think that you bring up a very good point. If one attacks and such an attack is brutal and efficient then the chances of success are greater. One of the things I stress to my students is to be fluid and open to change but at the same time to always move into the opponent. I like to have them fill the space and get as close as possible, preferably while cutting the angle so as to allow them to attack but require the opponent to have to move in order to attack them. Stepping off the line 45' forward works pretty well for this type of approach. The key is to attack and attack until the opponent is unable to continue. However this can not jst be some type of blind appraoch or just chanin punches, you must remain fluid and be willing and able to change or modify your attacks based on what the opponent gives you.

Hope that makes some sense. I used to advocate giving my opponent a piece of my mind but i have so little to spare nowadays that now I just hit them :D

Peace,

Dave

Hi Dave,

Agreed again. Side step either with a angle or not is recommended as this puts one in a position to instantly attack while forcing the opponent to chase. Your concept of being able to change, we like to call it the "Theory of Interruption", meaning you must be able to adapt and change a movement to something else in accordance to the opponents movements. Wing Chun's tools have this trait ingrained within them, and along with chi-sao practice this ability is reinforced in the practitioner.

James

[SevenStar]

But allot of Martial Artist are now using this as a standard by which to compare, "what if you meet a highly skilled fighter on the street" bla bla bla is the catch phase of the new millineum. Not all are into competiting to test one's fighting skill. There are lots of unknown fighters out there with quality skills, using varous methods of training. When it comes to life or death or defense of one's family, would any of us care as to the skill level of the opponent. If the situation was mine to deal with I wouldn't even give them the chance to showcase their high quality skill as I would be on them like flies on sh!t. This to me is the basic foundation of Wing Chun fighting concept. Don't give them the chance to do anything once the fight has started, close the gap and finish it quickly as there are more opponents waiting in the wings.

I can see what you are saying in this post, but don't completely agree with it. It's not really an issue of meeting a highly skilled fighter on the street, nor is it an issue of simply competing to test your skill. It's to better yourself. we have all seen MAs get mauled by non trained guys in the street. THEORETICALLY, the better trained MA shoulda won, but did not. Why? could be a number of reasons - he coulda froze due to the adrenaline rush, had the wrong mindset, etc. These are things that can be learned to deal with by fighting. Sparring the the school is not the same, because the whole mindset is different.

[SevenStar]

FWIW I had a Black Belt in Judo before I started Wing Chun. I also competed in several regional tourneys and did quite well. My Judo instructor was a guy named Lou Moyerman. So I am not just basing my opinion on second hand knowledge. Judo can be effective but I would give you this challenge; next time you are in the dojo and preparing for Randori take off the top of your gi and see how many techniques still work :)


that's the exact modification I mentioned. the throws are possible gi less - pretty much all of them, off the top of my head. You have to train to hook and grab muscle however, which is what I mentioned. tai otoshi for example can be thrown gi less by only using leverage against the forearm - both of your hands are on his arm as opposed to arm and lapel. Mike Swain has a series of videos out and demos a few giless throws in them. You have to train for them though.


[q]I would love to see someone apply a sholder throw against a jab in real life.[/b]


Why shoulder throw? lower your level and get him with morote gari...

[lawrenceofidaho]

I'm not saying that you wouldn't use your own experience also, but if your Sifu, Coach or Mentor has achieved the same goal you want to achieve, doesn't it make logical sense that he/she could get you to achieve that goal faster than you would all by yourself? Read any goal/success orientated book and they usually say find a mentor or someone wiser in the ways of things than you are to counsel you and make the journey quicker with less mistakes (although mistakes are a great learning tool) than the person mentoring you made. Efficiency is the key word here gentlemen.
Good coaching (from a coach who has first hand experience) is practically indispensible, but learning from others' advice can only take one so far........

No matter how good an infantryman's drill instructor is, a soldier fresh out of basic training will not be nearly as skilled and effective in the field as a veteran who has completed a couple of tours of combat.

-Lawrence

[sihing]

Good coaching (from a coach who has first hand experience) is practically indispensible, but learning from others' advice can only take one so far........

No matter how good an infantryman's drill instructor is, a soldier fresh out of basic training will not be nearly as skilled and effective in the field as a veteran who has completed a couple of tours of combat.

-Lawrence

Yes, that is true Lawrence, but the idea was to never be as skilled as the one who taught you in an "Alive" environment, but to gain the skills faster. So when the soldier is fresh off the enrollment line, is he told to go over to that field and start shooting, alone and with no guidance? No he isn't, otherwise his training in this endevour would take 4 to 5X longer. The instructor will accompany him and teach him the basics and gradually increase the knowledge given so that he can achieve skill in that activity faster than he would by himself. Now if the Drill Instructor has combat experience then this is even more of an asset for the student learning the task, as the Drill Instructor can pass on all of his experience to him, including combat experience, besides just how to shot a gun. Since the student is still learning, the Master Instructor's experience is more complete than the students experience. Until the day the student himself goes through the same experiences as the Master Instructor, then they will be equal, this is the way of things.

James

[SAAMAG]

Aww crap. I see what you're saying. Guidance from the instructor is necessary to learning something new, and goes without saying. I guess a lot of this point of view comes from people who are no longer new...and understand that should the instructor's experience in fighting be limited in and of itself, or perhaps even non existant in reference to your goals...that his guidance then becomes less needed.

Anyway...just jabbering...gotta go back to work.

[sihing]

Obviously you have to be learning from the REAL DEAL, for this concept to have any real value. For example, those who were fortunate to have learned directly from Bruce Lee were learning from the real deal and found his experience much more valuable than there own. Many of his students had previous experience in MA but had nothing compared to Bruce and his skill and experiences, so it is fair to say that those still teaching Bruce's concepts and techniques (Inosanto, Bustillo, etc..) learned things faster with Bruce's experiences behind them than they would have alone. Bruce is just one example and there are many out there in today's world..

James

[lawrenceofidaho]

Obviously you have to be learning from the REAL DEAL, for this concept to have any real value. For example, those who were fortunate to have learned directly from Bruce Lee were learning from the real deal and found his experience much more valuable than there own. Many of his students had previous experience in MA but had nothing compared to Bruce and his skill and experiences, so it is fair to say that those still teaching Bruce's concepts and techniques (Inosanto, Bustillo, etc..) learned things faster with Bruce's experiences behind them than they would have alone. James
Most martial artists would agree that there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Bruce was a very good teacher, but one thing he did not do (of course) was to pass on the verbatim teachings of his instructor as the "gospel of truth which cannot be changed".

Bruce had a good deal fighting experience (actually using his wing chun) before he even began teaching, and he continued throughout his life to test all of his ideas and theories by putting on equipment and sparring hard to see if they would work like he imagined. He never assumed that he; already knew everything, had the "perfect" system, etc.......

Bruce also had his students regularly gear up and spar, and (unlike most teachers) encouraged his students to question rather than robotically accept his, or anyone else's authority.

Those qualities are a big part of what made him so successful. (More so IMO than having the fortune of learning from a skilled teacher like Master Yip Man.)

-Lawrence

[sihing]

Most martial artists would agree that there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Bruce was a very good teacher, but one thing he did not do (of course) was to pass on the verbatim teachings of his instructor as the "gospel of truth which cannot be changed".

Bruce had a good deal fighting experience (actually using his wing chun) before he even began teaching, and he continued throughout his life to test all of his ideas and theories by putting on equipment and sparring hard to see if they would work like he imagined. He never assumed that he; already knew everything, had the "perfect" system, etc.......

Bruce also had his students regularly gear up and spar, and (unlike most teachers) encouraged his students to question rather than robotically accept his, or anyone else's authority.

Those qualities are a big part of what made him so successful. (More so IMO than having the fortune of learning from a skilled teacher like Master Yip Man.)

-Lawrence

Well, I think it's fair to say that Yip was not Bruce's only teacher. Bruce had a library of books, and also many associations with other Martial Artists. Even though Wing Chun was his primary system, he was gifted with the ability to pick things up very quickly. This was also amplified by his intense interest in Martial Arts and philosophy. So, I think it's fair to say that in Bruce's case he did rely on other's experience to a great degree, and would not have come up with his ideas towards Martial Arts without those sources of information (Yip gave him the philosophy of being like water for e.g. Would Bruce have come up with this totally on his own?). Most of Bruce's sayings and ideoms came from where? Other sources, some not even related to Martial Arts but he borrowed the concept and applied it to Martial Arts. I'm not trying to say that Bruce was not an orginal, as he did revolutionize the Martial Arts of his day as well as action movies, but I like to think of Bruce's genius more towards how he took his weaknesses and made himself into what he was to become. He was ultra determined and transformed himself into what he thought he had to be to gain success for himself and his family, that is his greatness, not his philosophy or fighting method, IMHO.

James

[lawrenceofidaho]

I like to think of Bruce's genius more towards how he took his weaknesses and made himself into what he was to become. He was ultra determined and transformed himself into what he thought he had to be to gain success for himself and his family, that is his greatness, not his philosophy or fighting method, IMHO.
Well said....... :)

-Lawrence

[anerlich]

WCK not for sport?

My Sihing's kwoon in Queensland had five fighters in an amateur shooto tournament on the weekend. We got two gold medals, two silver, and invitations to compete in the statewide Spartan MMA circuit later this year.

If you can't compete using WCK, that's your problem, not WCK's ...

[YungChun]

WCK not for sport?

My Sihing's kwoon in Queensland had five fighters in an amateur shooto tournament on the weekend. We got two gold medals, two silver, and invitations to compete in the statewide Spartan MMA circuit later this year.

If you can't compete using WCK, that's your problem, not WCK's ...


Congratulations to the group!

Amen to those sentiments.

[Matrix]

anerlich,

Kudos to the team in Queensland. Nice to hear something positive wrt WCK. :)

[anerlich]

Thanks gentlemen.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Is there any footage available of this event, Andrew?

I recall you saying on some previous posts that the TWC that has emerged from Rick Spain in recent years has foregone the neutral side stance and only uses front stances - and that there may be more than the typical amount of kicking going on...if I remember correctly.

Would like to see what the style looks like now.

[SevenStar]

I haven't read any of this thread - but here are my thoughts on wing chun and sportfighting :

Think in terms of design constraints, and that which follows. Wing chun was not designed for the ring, and therefore will almost certainly be inferior to what was designed for the ring.

For example, the strategy is sub-optimal for the ring. Change the strategy and the tactics, techniques and engine may also have to change.

A brief strategy comparison :

Wing Chun 'street' strategy - go in to destroy, glass head, preference for staying standing.

Boxing strategy - 'sniping' in a war of attrition, including trading hits.

Groundfighters strategy - take the fight to the ground, take hits to get there.

In the ring wing chun strategy is inferior : in a boxing (or even NHB) format good standing destructions are not possible under the rules - unless you can always get a k.o. or keep your opponent under constant barrage, you have to back out and use the 'sniping' approach. Wing Chun strategy will also be beaten by the ground fighter, who is prepared to sacrifice to get a takedown. Wing Chun does not teach us to sacrifice or trade hits - although in real fighting (and high intensity chi-sao) it has to be taken into account.

In the street the boxing strategy is inferior : don't always have the luxury to snipe, and conditioning won't save you from real destructions.

In the street the groundfight strategy is inferior : multiple opponents, broken glass and the rest have to be taken into account.

This is not to say that a wing chun trained fighter cannot successfully apply what they have learned in wing chun in the ring (or a sportsfighter fight in the street). I see no reason why one can't box using the wing chun body engine, wing chun footwork, wing chun hand techniques, or learn something useful from chi-sao and lat-sao training. However, you have to look at the art from the top, and work from there.

To train for the ring, you must use the ring as the basis for your training - lots of free sparring, and lots of conditioning.

I see no reason that 'sport wing chun' can't exist. However, it would be a different art.



I disagree. If a person can't adapt their style to a given venue, that is the practitioner's problem, not the style's as anerlich stated.

Actually, the 'strategy' you posted for WC fits right in with boxing, mma and bjj.

[Gangsterfist]

my $ 0.02

IMHO, ring fighting for competition for money, like on a professional level, consists of at least 75% conditioning. Meaning that at least 3/4 of your training is conditioning/endurance training. The other 1/4 is lots of basic fighting, and technical/strategy outlooks.

So, yeah if you trained to be a professional ring fighter you would have an adatped changed version of whatever system you trained in. If you do not train to be a pro ring fighter then you really have no buisness being in the ring.

Its not wing chun's design that is faulty, its the guy who tries to fight with out really conditioning himself for the ring. Its not the street and its no real fighting. There are rules and regulations you have to follow. Its up to the person to make the adjustment not the system.

Remember wing chun has a core system based on theories and concepts, which means you can easily change them to your situation. I am willing to be I could lay out a training regime for a ring fighter and use strict wing chun principles and make them effective, as long as they kept up with the conditioning/endurance part.

[Ernie]

In the ring you have the luxary of knowing your opponent , time to train and preset conditions , what is or is not allowed

there is no real surprise or shock ,[unless you really mis judge the guy and he opens a can of whoop a$$ on you ]

so the mind and body have time to prepare - you really have less to worry about


in the street you can't judge when ,who or where or how many , so in reality you should be in better condition then a ring guy , there will be more shock to your body and mind . more bad things can happen
, and more is at risk , loved ones , your life and so on

so if you were being honest a person who is a street fighter and lives that [warrior no rules deadly technique mindset ] should mop the floor with a ring guy since the poor ring guy has only trained for a limited situation

and the true street guy will be in condition 24/7 since his ring is the street ;)


but this is never the case , now is it :cool:

[Gangsterfist]

I don't train harder than a professional ring fighter, I cannot I have a job and work 40+ hrs/week. I cant run miles every day and work out and condition myself.

In todays society there really is no reason to practice martial arts beyond simple self defense, as far as encounters go for defending yourself. If someone really wants to show you who is boss, they will simply use a gun, or a blade, or blow up your car, or whatever.

So, really training for the warrior mentality and using kung fu is kind of a paradox imho. If you are in the military I can see it, but even in the military very few people actually see hand to hand combat. Its mostly urban with gun fights. Only the elite troops every have to get close enough to engage in hand to hand. Most of the fights are otherwise used with guns, ordinace, air strikes, etc.

Technology has changed our world, and will change it forever. I fix these buddhist monks computers, and they are common clients of ours. They even wear nike shoes, and one of them has a gold chain around his neck. It is becoming a way of life in our society, the warrior is obsolete. Technology fights our wars for us, and technology fights on the streets for us.

WCK is a tool that you can use to defend yourself in a fight or a possible mugging situation, however if they are armed, I would expect the worst. Thats just far as fighting goes. I am sure WCK can help in many other areas of your life that are not based on fighting.

Now for the sports argument, I disagree for one reason. People who train to become professional fighters do not train in the same sense that CMAist do. We practice forms over and over again, we do chi sau, and drill. Professional fighters from what I know mostly just do basic fighting techs and lots of conditioning. They don't sit there and do qi gong, or form work for hours on end, or weapons practice. So, if you really want to be a sports fighter MMA would probably yield better results. However, I am sure it totally depends on the person overall.

[Ernie]

G fist [not picking on you just bouncing ideas ]

you hit the point i was trying to make

WC people don't even train to the level of professional fighters
no were close to being war minded

yet these weekend warriors and couch patatos will spend countless hours playing the technique and style comparison game

and not even put in an ounce of the real work it takes to have a educated , experienced oppinion

[ by the way pro's train there version of forms shadow boxing , isolated patterns , focus miit stuff and isolated sparring to refine there motion and timing , trust me i have worked with guys on this level there not simple in any way shape or form ]

but they use what works because they are putting themelves in the line of fire and make money with there hands and feet

trust me if doing dead forms would give them and edge they would hardcore that to !

they do not have the time to day dream on fantasy fu ;)

but back to the point

whole lot of speculation not to much flight time :cool:

nothing wrong with being a regular guy weekend warrior just speak with in your skill
being honest is not so hard , living off stories and other guys accomplishments is weak :rolleyes:

skinney out of shape guy kicking sand in the face of the muscle head at the beach might get you killed :)

but i know people will still promote there [good wing chun ] as the be all end all with no hands on experience , because some were some time somebody said they heard some one pulled it off :eek:

since non of us here have really put in the time and work and gone in and had fights in the MMA who are we to say what is needed hmmmm [well maybe a few guys have ;) ]

[Knifefighter]

Boxing strategy - 'sniping' in a war of attrition, including trading hits.

Groundfighters strategy - take the fight to the ground, take hits to get there.The strategy of boxing is to hit your opponent without taking hits yourself. Head movement, mobility, parries, etc. are all designed for this. However, if your opponent is as or more skilled than you are, you will take some hits.

The strategy of groundfighting is to take the fight to the ground without taking any hits. However, if you opponent is better at striking than you are in setting and penetrating inside, then you will probably take some hits.

The reality is that if your opponent is as skilled or more skilled than you are, you will probably take some hits. On the street, you may take hits even if he is less skilled during the chaos of a street confrontation.

Any school that brainwashes its students into thinking that they will not get hit is a McDojo.

[Merryprankster]

form work for hours on end,

Actually, we do "form" work of a sort. We call them drills. And they are done ad nauseum until you don't think you can stand it any more. And then you get to do them longer.

The hardest part is focusing on every movement. Any idiot can go through the motions. You have to focus and practice with desire to get the right mental intensity to get anything out of it. Paying attention to every detail and how that FEELS is vital or it's almost useless.

[Knifefighter]

IMHO, ring fighting for competition for money, like on a professional level, consists of at least 75% conditioning. Meaning that at least 3/4 of your training is conditioning/endurance training. The other 1/4 is lots of basic fighting, and technical/strategy outlooks. 90% of the conditioning is built into the systems. You can't separate the two. That's one of the things that makes "sportfighting" styles so effective.

[SAAMAG]

Bottom line is that when two people go head to head, the higher skilled person (skilled being greater in technique, conditioning, and strategy) regardless of style or rules will be the victor.

This thread has every ounce of validation in it when you see that no one can perform what they've been taught in the environment that it's supposed to work in. True, it doesn't mean it won't ever work, or that it hasn't worked in the past, but if a system can't be shown to work on a consistant basis by a majority of it's practitioners, then there is something wrong.

I base all my opinions on impirical evidence, meaning I go out and I see for myself. I have very little faith in someone else's word, unless they can show me first hand that it will work. If the teacher cannot do what he says you should be able to do, then there's something wrong. How can one explain or teach something they've never experienced themselves? To see if something works doesn't take years and years...train intensively on something...go try it out. If it is so fundamentally sound...it should work given you have good QUALITY training in shorter times, then longer times of half arsed training.

[Brad]

I'm bored so I figured I'd take a peek at the Wing Chun board for a moment. Hope no one minds an "outsider" sticking his nose into things :D


and the true street guy will be in condition 24/7 since his ring is the street
I like this quote :) Anyway, I think there shouldn't be much difference between the intensity of training between a professional fighter and a professional traiditional martial artist. The goals are pretty much the same... putting down your opponent as quick as possible while sustaining as little possible damage to yourself. And if you're going to be teaching to someone, you really should make the effort to train like a professional. If you can't do it, then don't teach. Training like a pro by developing good conditioning and practicing your stuff on other professionals will make you better able to solidify your ability to pass on effective material to your students.

Anyway, I think sport is an excellent(and legal!) way to test yourself in this manner. Where else are you going to find hardcore athletes trying to take your head off? It's not much different than the challenge matches of old... two guys squaring of against each other in a test of skills.

Weekend warriors can do whatever the heck they want and train however they want :p I'm in weekend warrior mode right now, and it's actually kind of fun, lol.

[SevenStar]

[/b]I don't train harder than a professional ring fighter, I cannot I have a job and work 40+ hrs/week. I cant run miles every day and work out and condition myself.[/b]

can't, or don't want to? I don't train to the caliber of the pro fighter, but do find time to run several miles a week, lift weights and put in training time. I also have a family and work 40+ hours per week. anyone who competes will say the same.

In todays society there really is no reason to practice martial arts beyond simple self defense, as far as encounters go for defending yourself. If someone really wants to show you who is boss, they will simply use a gun, or a blade, or blow up your car, or whatever.


So, really training for the warrior mentality and using kung fu is kind of a paradox imho. If you are in the military I can see it, but even in the military very few people actually see hand to hand combat. Its mostly urban with gun fights. Only the elite troops every have to get close enough to engage in hand to hand. Most of the fights are otherwise used with guns, ordinace, air strikes, etc.

I thought that too. coincidentally, the current issue of kf/tc has an article by a guy who was in the 82nd airborne in iraq. he said that h2h training has served them quite well over there.


Now for the sports argument, I disagree for one reason. People who train to become professional fighters do not train in the same sense that CMAist do. We practice forms over and over again, we do chi sau, and drill. Professional fighters from what I know mostly just do basic fighting techs and lots of conditioning. They don't sit there and do qi gong, or form work for hours on end, or weapons practice. So, if you really want to be a sports fighter MMA would probably yield better results. However, I am sure it totally depends on the person overall.

conditioning IS our external gong training. iron palm, iron body, etc. - we hit the bag/pads and spar. Our forms work is drilling, and we also do it repeatedly. grappling and clinchwork I guess can be compared to chi sau, as it is sensitivity training.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Conditioning IS our external gong training. iron palm, iron body, etc. - we hit the bag/pads and spar. Our forms work is drilling, and we also do it repeatedly. grappling and clinchwork I guess can be compared to chi sau, as it is sensitivity training." (Sevenstar)

7 makes an excellent point here.

So much for the "wing chun" claim that is it is not technique or attribute based - but strictly concept based with endless techniques that just "flow"...conditioning is not necessary...developing attributes (ie.- speed, power, explosive strikes and kicks) are not important either.

Everything you need is built right into the system.

NO IT'S NOT. High quality fighting skills, using wing chun, as in ANY OTHER martial art, requires the same kinds of skill, conditioning, sparring, and attribute (tool-sharpening) development...there's just no getting around it.

[Gangsterfist]

Sevenstar-

Well, I knew somebody would try to call me out on that :)

I do work out and train several hours/week but I am involved in other things as well. I help a group of friends who film comedy skits, and right now we are doing a demo fight movie to see how it works out. I am one of the goons in it and I get beat up pretty well. In the film I am using a southern dragon style, not even my main style, infact I only know one short form from that style.

I work out based on what I think I need work on. Whether it be break falls, punching, forms, kicks, ground work, foot work, etc. I don't life weights really I do bear crawls, tons of ab works, many variations of push ups, pulls ups, etc. I do some cardio work, but lately I have been slacking in the cardio department.

So, to answer your question yes, I find time to train and condition myself, however its no where near the calibur of a professional contender. I have seen those guys on TV that work out and train for 10 hours a day. Some days I am so tired I can barely train for an hour, so yeah I am comparing myself to those types.

So, yeah between everything I am into, plus all my friends who I hang out with everyday practically I try to balance everything out. Not all my friends are into MA, they are into other things.

[sihing]

Here's how I look at this topic. The average person with no physical disability has enough strength and speed to make it work, what they lack is the coordination. The beauty of the system is that when one is working on learning that coordination, they will gain speed and strength. Performing Chi-sao for an hour with a partner will increase the strength of your upper body. Performing chain punches for an hour will increase the strength endurance of your shoulders and triceps as well as increasing your speed. Standing and moving around in your YKJKM will increase the strength and endurance of you legs as well as your balance and speed of movement of your footwork. Hitting the Mok Jong will toughen your arms up and increase your timing and coordination/speed of your hand movements. So does Wing Chun have physical attribute training? Yes, as you can see above. Allot of people try to make others think that being a couch potato will still allow one to be a effective fighter, this I do not agree with. The hard work has to be put in sometime in one's training and this will suffice until the skills are learned and if one still wants to continue with the physical training regimen then that's great too, but I believe once you have the skill and you are active in the Wing Chun itself, you will be able to use it effectively and not have to abuse your body physically, like advocated by some on this forum. Wing Chun is a skill based attribute Art, and definitely not based on physical attributes like speed, strength or toughness, but they are present in the system, and add to your repertoire if you have them present
James

[Gangsterfist]

Actually, we do "form" work of a sort. We call them drills. And they are done ad nauseum until you don't think you can stand it any more. And then you get to do them longer.

The hardest part is focusing on every movement. Any idiot can go through the motions. You have to focus and practice with desire to get the right mental intensity to get anything out of it. Paying attention to every detail and how that FEELS is vital or it's almost useless.


You know I like what you say here MP. When we practice our wing chun forms its very important to feel how the energies should be. I am not talking about chi here either. I am talking about auto kinetics, and skeletal structure. In wing chun, or at least the wing chun I train in, we focus a lot on elbow placement and elbow movements. It took me over a year of training to actually start to realize the feeling my teacher described to me.

I agree that you should train things slow sometimes to get the proper muscle memory down of what you are trying to do. Practice it in heavy sparring situations too, so you can try to apply it in a more "real" enviroment.

Like when I do form work I can feel my body connected to the earth, and I can pinpoint out each joint, bone, socket, and muscle working as I move. It took me a while to work out all the tensions in my body to be able to feel my body actually move and to be able to break it down from my foot, to my hip, to my punch.

So, I totally agree with you, feeling out the movements and fully understanding them is a great attribute to have.

[MoiFah]

On the issue of using WC in an MMA type of event, I'm sure most of you here remember when Emin Boztepe challenged the Gracies to a real No Holds Barred/No Rules fight and the Gracies backed down.

Think whatever you want of Emin Boztepe, but he was the only recognizable WC instuctor or practicioner to step up to the plate. For those who may never have seen it, here is the actual challenge that Emin issued to the Gracies.

(copied and pasted from http://www.wingtsun.nl/chal-grc.htm)

AWTO
American WingTsun Organization
Los Angeles, 26th October 1994




AWTO, USA: Fax: 0213/666 1635
Munich, Germany: Fax: 089/6421590
SWTO, Sweden: Fax: 08 / 6406106

A WORLD-WIDE OPEN CHALLENGE TO THE GRACIE-FAMILY

After having watched your "Ultimate Fighting Championships" held by the Gracie-Family, I cannot find them very "ultimate" but only amusing. These so-called "ultimate fights' may impress laymen or beginners, but in fact they are no more real than the professional Wrestling shows on TV.

What depresses me is that I heard of some rumors that I would not dare to accept your challenge. In fact I have never received any such challenge! Do you want me to appear like a coward? When I talked to Benny Urquidez in Germany, he told me that you people had played him the same dirty old trick for propaganda. Not long ago you even challenged the great man of American wrestling Gene LeBell. A very brave act indeed, since Mr. LeBell is over 60 years old.

Now in the second "Ultimate Fighting Championships"-Show you people even (ab-)used two stupid wing chun-men to perform some funny movements so as to represent "Kung Fu". And at the same time you claimed to have defeated two "wing chun'-fighters in the first bout.

Although I am a WingTsun-Fighter of the Leung Ting WingTsun-System, which is very different from the generic wing chun-style in theory and practice and is highly compatible in ground-fighting, I feel bad that you brothers use these kinds of dirty tricks to put down the late Great Grandmaster Yip Man's other students, their schools as well as other respectable martial arts styles or stylists!

I keep the record of over 300 bare-hand fights and have never been defeated. However, I have never talked bad about my losers and all the other styles. But so as to educate you Gracies to respect the others, my students I hereby turn the tables on you by challenging all you people of the Gracie-Family.

I can send 5 or more fighters from the AWTO to fight the Gracies. If you have more fighters in the Gracie-Family, just inform me and I shall report this to the International Headquarters and we will satisfy you with as many fighters as necessary.

We like the so-called "No rules at all" Game as advertised in your propaganda. No gloves, no time-limit, the person who knocks out his opponent is the winner. This is exactly the way we WingTsun-people fought in China in the olden times. We do not mind fighting you people in the ring set up by your own organization. The only thing that we want is to fight openly, so all the audience, reporters, TV-people and martial artists can see if you can really fight against us. We only want two conditions:

1) We only fight you Gracies. For we do not want to give you the chance to use any helpful idiots to protect you as "shields". So we will only fight you directly and no others!
2) The winner takes all the money. We only want our expenses paid. The rest of the money will all be used for charity.

If you Gracie-brothers dare not to accept our challenge, I do not mind. But remember: Never put down any other martial art styles from now on.

Emin Boztepe
5th level Practician EWTO / IWTMAA
Headman of the AWTO (American WingTsun Organization)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"...and the Gracies backed down." (MoiFah)

DON'T KNOW FOR SURE if this is a troll post on your part or not, MoiFah...but it sure sounds like one.

The incident(s) you allude to are best left to die a non-resurrected death.

There are at least two sides to this story; but the bottom line is that nothing came of it...and if it hasn't happened by now...it probably never will.

So forget it.

[KimWingChun]

IME the biggest difference in skillsets between ring and street is regarding mental strategy pre-fight. In the ring both are prepared for the fight and know exactly when the fight starts, in the streets it's more about planning, avoidance and psychology. When the sh|t hits the fan it's pretty much the same skillsets (again IME) required, if you can't land your basic kick or punch, you won't land the super-groin kick or biu jee either, so the reference to using more dangerous techniques as being more "effective" is only true if the skills to deliver are t here, which is much more important then the tool.

Best regards,

[SevenStar]

On the issue of using WC in an MMA type of event, I'm sure most of you here remember when Emin Boztepe challenged the Gracies to a real No Holds Barred/No Rules fight and the Gracies backed down.

Think whatever you want of Emin Boztepe, but he was the only recognizable WC instuctor or practicioner to step up to the plate. For those who may never have seen it, here is the actual challenge that Emin issued to the Gracies.

(copied and pasted from http://www.wingtsun.nl/chal-grc.htm)

AWTO
American WingTsun Organization
Los Angeles, 26th October 1994




AWTO, USA: Fax: 0213/666 1635
Munich, Germany: Fax: 089/6421590
SWTO, Sweden: Fax: 08 / 6406106

A WORLD-WIDE OPEN CHALLENGE TO THE GRACIE-FAMILY

After having watched your "Ultimate Fighting Championships" held by the Gracie-Family, I cannot find them very "ultimate" but only amusing. These so-called "ultimate fights' may impress laymen or beginners, but in fact they are no more real than the professional Wrestling shows on TV.

What depresses me is that I heard of some rumors that I would not dare to accept your challenge. In fact I have never received any such challenge! Do you want me to appear like a coward? When I talked to Benny Urquidez in Germany, he told me that you people had played him the same dirty old trick for propaganda. Not long ago you even challenged the great man of American wrestling Gene LeBell. A very brave act indeed, since Mr. LeBell is over 60 years old.

Now in the second "Ultimate Fighting Championships"-Show you people even (ab-)used two stupid wing chun-men to perform some funny movements so as to represent "Kung Fu". And at the same time you claimed to have defeated two "wing chun'-fighters in the first bout.

Although I am a WingTsun-Fighter of the Leung Ting WingTsun-System, which is very different from the generic wing chun-style in theory and practice and is highly compatible in ground-fighting, I feel bad that you brothers use these kinds of dirty tricks to put down the late Great Grandmaster Yip Man's other students, their schools as well as other respectable martial arts styles or stylists!

I keep the record of over 300 bare-hand fights and have never been defeated. However, I have never talked bad about my losers and all the other styles. But so as to educate you Gracies to respect the others, my students I hereby turn the tables on you by challenging all you people of the Gracie-Family.

I can send 5 or more fighters from the AWTO to fight the Gracies. If you have more fighters in the Gracie-Family, just inform me and I shall report this to the International Headquarters and we will satisfy you with as many fighters as necessary.

We like the so-called "No rules at all" Game as advertised in your propaganda. No gloves, no time-limit, the person who knocks out his opponent is the winner. This is exactly the way we WingTsun-people fought in China in the olden times. We do not mind fighting you people in the ring set up by your own organization. The only thing that we want is to fight openly, so all the audience, reporters, TV-people and martial artists can see if you can really fight against us. We only want two conditions:

1) We only fight you Gracies. For we do not want to give you the chance to use any helpful idiots to protect you as "shields". So we will only fight you directly and no others!
2) The winner takes all the money. We only want our expenses paid. The rest of the money will all be used for charity.

If you Gracie-brothers dare not to accept our challenge, I do not mind. But remember: Never put down any other martial art styles from now on.

Emin Boztepe
5th level Practician EWTO / IWTMAA
Headman of the AWTO (American WingTsun Organization)


definitely two sides to that story. Also, which has been posted on here before, emin has backed out of several challenges that have been made to him.