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Bessho
11-08-2001, 09:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ving Tsun is not really for fighting. It is for self-defense. You learn Ving Tsun so you don’t have to fight. If your Ving Tsun life is correct, you don’t need to fight. If you don’t understand that, I’ll see you next year when your kung-fu is better and then maybe you’ll understand.[/quote]

Many well known sifus have been in fights, including the late Wing Chun Grandmaster Yip Man. Isn't that contradictory to the quote? What is Ving Tsun Life?

Sharky
11-08-2001, 09:47 PM
who said that? maybe they should pay a visit to the rougher parts of town, and try to "avoid" getting into fights.

tits.

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

El_CLap
11-08-2001, 09:49 PM
Wing Chun is for fighting. We have other things to keep us from fighting.

Martial Joe
11-08-2001, 09:58 PM
Ving Tsun is not really for fighting. It is for self-defense. You learn Ving Tsun so you don’t have to fight. If your Ving Tsun life is correct, you don’t need to fight. If you don’t understand that, I’ll see you next year when your kung-fu is better and then maybe you’ll understand.

that is stupid...It was created for fighting.People can use it for what they want,but it is a brawling art...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

rogue
11-08-2001, 10:14 PM
Kind of like people who take martial arts but doesn't like fighting.

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban


There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.' Patton

joy chaudhuri
11-09-2001, 02:43 AM
That is a term that Moy Yat used to like as a goal for his lineage members to follow, if memory serves.Possibly Confucian foundation- honoring teacher and elders , concern for relatives and not being quarrelsome....?

Martial Joe
11-09-2001, 05:50 AM
No one can say wing chun was not created for fighting.

If a person wants to use it for something else...then thats great!!!

But they can never say it was not made for fighting...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

Bessho
11-09-2001, 06:28 AM
that is moy yat quoted from the beny meng museum website.

Spectre
11-09-2001, 07:41 AM
Why do people make it sound so hard to NOT get into fights?

Just because you have a weapon does not mean that you have to use it. If you already know that you can win in a fight, what is the purpose in fighting?

Of course Wing Chun, along with every other martial art, was designed for self-defense. It's intended purpose was not for people to go out and fight just because they can.

Kevin
__________________________________________________ __________________

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

Gluteus Maximus
11-09-2001, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Ving Tsun is not really for fighting. It is for self-defense. You learn Ving Tsun so you don’t have to fight. If your Ving Tsun life is correct, you don’t need to fight. If you don’t understand that, I’ll see you next year when your kung-fu is better and then maybe you’ll understand. [/quote]

GEEZ!!!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


He did say Ving Tsun is for self-defence, so he is NOT saying the VT is not for fighting!

Substitute "fighting" for "picking fights" or "ego-driven fighting" and you will then be able to read the quote in the context I'm sure the author intended!

Max

Yooby Yoody

bao
11-11-2001, 03:35 PM
I think it meant that wing chun is a righteous art only to be used for self defense and not violence. When you are not violent, you are less likely to get into fights unless you are in a kung fu movie. Relax people it is only a quote from a dead guy.

bao

Bessho
11-11-2001, 05:59 PM
how bout fighting for justice?

Gluteus Maximus
11-11-2001, 06:24 PM
It's like fu(king for virginity.

Max

Sai Lo Jai
11-11-2001, 09:57 PM
I cannot find the quote you speak of on the musuem's website, so, currently, I would not be able to place it in its proper context. Could you email the whole article to me?

If that is all of the quote available publicly, here are my thoughts: My sifu did not speak of a "Ving Tsun Life," he spoke of a "Kung Fu Life." What is that? A simple analogy may shed some insight:

Suppose you really like soccer: You play on a team, follow the other teams, practice a lot, meet the other players, talk, exchange ideas, have books and posters, always wear the team jerseys, etc.

If, for no other reason than they are around you a lot, don't you, at least, try to be cordial, and possibly, helpful to your teammates, your fans, your coaches, and even, the other teams in the league? If the net on the goalpost got shreded in the last storm, doesn't the group, collectively, try to figure out how to fix it and/or replace it? If the field badly needed mowing and you know someone with a mower, what are you going to do? If you come across one of the opposing team's coaches at the shopping mall and his car won't start, are you going to say "see you next game" and leave him stranded there?

Now, when you need your living room sofa moved, who are you going to call? When you take a break, what are you going to talk about? When you're done, do you think there's a chance you guys will go outside and kick around a soccer ball?

If you had to call that something, the name "soccer life" is as good as any other.

While it may seem odd to some, experience has shown me that a lot of people, for whatever reason, have a blind spot if you try to explain this in the context of Kung Fu. Maybe it was the culture, but in Hong Kong, my sifu never had to explain the concept to anyone. So, Moy Yat tried to get people to understand in the U.S. by speaking of the "Kung Fu Life." Still, some people think it's some mysterious, secret, sacred thing. Actually, it's just life - one that helps others through hard work. It has nothing to do with fighting, Kung Fu, Confucious, or overthrowing the Manchus.

Regarding whether getting into a fight is a contradiction if you agree with your quote excerpt, the only answer I see is that it it depends why it happened and what brought you there. However, so what if a person got in a fight and they believe, perhaps, they shouldn't have. People aren't perfect. With a little luck, that person learned a good lesson from the encounter.

<A HREF="http://www.moyyat.com" TARGET=_blank>
<img src="http://www.moyyat.com/images/flower-small.gif" border=0 width=69 height=63 alt="In Loving Memory"></A>

Bessho
11-11-2001, 10:03 PM
vtchallenge (http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/loewenhagen/vtchallenge.php)

Sai Lo Jai
11-11-2001, 10:38 PM
Thank you. I just spotted your post on the "refresh." Their site's "search" does not seem to be working.

Actually, the article to which you refer originally appeared in Inside Kung Fu magazine more than a few years ago. Although I don't know by whom, the interviews were heavily edited for space. The article was also given a title spot on the front cover which alluded to something a bit more provocative. The theme was again echoed at the beginning of the article. But, while it was an okay article, considering the article's actual content, it didn't live up to the title's billing.

If you notice, the answers my sibaks gave for the particular question from which you excerpted your quote were edited out completely, just as Moy Yat's answers were removed from some other questions.

Oh well. As Moy Yat said in his complete answer: "Why limit it to just five?" You only took one to repeat here as the basis of your query. You had your reasons, too. ;)

The most interesting aspect, though, is that my sibaks don't speak English and my sifu generally talked mostly in Cantonese out of repsect so sibaks so they could also understand his answer to the same question. I wasn't present for that interview, so I couldn't tell you if it was Moy Yat doing the translating, but it may not have been. Still, everything in the article was translated from thoughts originating in another language. That's not an easy job even for someone as skilled in both languages as my sifu.

I think it is very important to also note the effort it takes at all levels for a person to get an article published and the difficulties a magazine faces when trying to make, essentially, the same material appear fresh issue after issue, month after month, year after year. To do these things were skills my sifu, from a personal point of view, never particularly cared to develop.

<A HREF="http://www.moyyat.com" TARGET=_blank>
<img src="http://www.moyyat.com/images/flower-small.gif" border=0 width=69 height=63 alt="In Loving Memory"></A>

[This message was edited by Tom Kagan on 11-12-01 at 12:52 PM.]

Bessho
11-11-2001, 10:50 PM
tom - can you share the un-edited complete quote about ving tsun life?

Sai Lo Jai
11-11-2001, 10:59 PM
What I have written is good enough already. If you still want more, then "I’ll see you next year when your kung-fu is better and then maybe you’ll understand."

<a href="http://www.moyyat.com">
<img src="http://www.moyyat.com/images/flower-small.gif" border=0 width=69 height=63 alt="In Loving Memory"></a>

Bessho
11-11-2001, 11:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My sifu did not speak of a "Ving Tsun Life," he spoke of a "Kung Fu Life." [/quote]

in the article it says ving tsun life not kung fu life. yuan fen named your sifu w/o knowing the quote's source. i also consider his attribution to confucian thought apt as it led to more research on my part.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
What I have written is good enough already. If you still want more, then "I’ll see you next year when your kung-fu is better and then maybe you’ll understand."
[/quote]

ouch. how clever. you can quote moy yat too. reads like spin more appropriate for another infamous board.

ken

Sai Lo Jai
11-12-2001, 12:11 AM
It's been a year already? Wow, time flies.

I am not debating what was in an article of Inside Kung Fu. I can't say why Yuen Fen attributed the quote to my sifu. But, considering Moy Yat was possibly the only person in martial arts to try to explain the concept within the context of Kung Fu (in English and publicly, anyway) and he was a student of Ving Tsun and you put the question in a Ving Tsun Forum and it was printed in a widely circulated magazine from an interview of him, Yeun Fen's attribution doesn't surprise me, nor should it be a big leap for anyone else.

However, since I spent time with the man nearly every day of the last several years of his life and continue to visit with my simo and her children, I am trying to help you make some sense about what he spoke. I am not trying to "spin" anything, because there is nothing to spin. Neither am I trying to be clever. If I were being clever, I would not respond at all to your original question nor would I follow up.

Trying to give life meaning through helping others is a thought transcends confucianism. You will find the same theme elsewhere in other religions. Still, feel free to believe whatever you wish and perhaps make a conclusion prematurely. Of course, I don't know will happen if you ever discover Moy Yat was not Confucianist.

Just because I pointed out that the secret to kung fu doesn't come from a quote but only through hard work over time is not a good reason for the manner of your response. You didn't get everything you wanted right now. Well, I don't know you. You are not my student. I owe you nothing; not even what I have already tried to explain. Yet, I tried my best to explain it. For that, you attempt to insult me. Your answer proved my point that you do need more time to think about the meaning of Kung Fu life.

My editing of the quote reduced its meaning to its essence. And if you still don't understand, what can I do? Sorry. It's beyond my abilities to explain any further.

<A HREF="http://www.moyyat.com" TARGET=_blank>
<img src="http://www.moyyat.com/images/flower-small.gif" border=0 width=69 height=63 alt="In Loving Memory"></A>

Bessho
11-12-2001, 01:19 AM
still don't get it - but apology accepted.