Mind over matter

[Valbert]

Hi everyone. This is my first post, and I was hoping some of you might be able to help me with the following situation; I study kung fu under a guy who studies kung fu under a guy who is a certified shaolin monk. We do a lot of stuff that requires very good endurance in the legs with a lot of very deep stances.
I asked my teacher "how do you recommend training horse stance?"
He said "train five times a week until failure."
I said "what kind of failure? The kind where I give up from the pain or the kind where I fall over because my muscles no longer function?"
He said "the second one."
I expressed my disappointment with his answer.
He said "I think at your level that should be around ten minutes."
I expressed my disappointment more forcefully.

The reason I find his answer extremely upsetting is that my horse stance record is about 2 minutes, before I give up from pain (yes, I'm a wimp). Just thinking of continuing for another eight minutes makes me want to cry (a big wimp). He told me to ignore the pain. It's simply mind over matter. Here are my questions:

1) Is training horse stance more a matter of training your leg muscles, or training your mind to ignore the pain?
2) Will working on meditation help with the mind over matter stuff? If so, what should I be thinking about during meditation? Counting breaths, emptying my mind, focusing on my center?
3) Got any tips for ignoring the searing pain in my legs as I try to hold horse stance?

I also happen to think my instructor knows what he's talking about. He has a very good horse stance, and he says his sifu makes him try to hold horse stance for up to 30 minutes. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks.

[fa_jing]

Hopefully you can push the mental boundaries right along with the physical ones. Training and continued effort in both areas will be necessary.

BTW, you won't actually fall over if you reach muscular failure holding a horse. You'll just sink past parallel and not be able to stay up. More like a slow descent.

Meditation? Try it while holding the horse. That's the only kind of meditation that will help you.

Maybe a shot of liquor would help you too! ;)

[Reggie1]

2) Will working on meditation help with the mind over matter stuff? If so, what should I be thinking about during meditation? Counting breaths, emptying my mind, focusing on my center?
3) Got any tips for ignoring the searing pain in my legs as I try to hold horse stance?

I can't really help you with 1), but meditation could help if you can do it while you are in horse stance.

And what I try and do is just breathe. Sit in the stance and breathe. Use deep breaths to 'cleanse' the pain. It sounds stupid, but it actually helps me some. The more focused I am on my breath the less I notice the pain.

[red5angel]

before I give up from pain


That's your only block right there. You quit before you're really ready, I know I used to have this same problem. You've just got to figure out what it is that will get you past it.
Here's a trick I don't necessarily recommend but it worked for me. For deep stance type stuff, I used to work in front of the television. I'd stand in front of the TV or put in a movie and do it then. Whenever the pain stated to get bad I'd concentrate on what was going on in front of me.
Eventually I got away from that but it was a crutch I used to get up to where I wanted to be doing it comfortably, from there it's just a matter of will.

[Samurai Jack]

Meditation that forces you to overcome discomfort is a big one. Just holding an empty mind and allowing yourself to stay relaxed and breathing normally while in horse should do the trick. I just started a zazen exercise wherein you don't allow yourself to blink for ten minutes, but stay relaxed and empty. It was extremly difficult but it only took a week to be able to consistently do it. I attribute the quick success to weight training and martial arts practices that strengthen the will (such as horse stance training). For most people it's supposed to take a few months to work up to just ten minutes of the "no-blinking-zazen". I just did thirty yesterday.

Anyway, you could try both standing for thirty minutes, and not blinking for thirty minutes (just kidding). In reality, whenever someone tells me something like, "You should stand in horse for thirty minutes." I usually try to surpass that. I think it's a necessary mindset. Just dedicate yourself to increasing the time by fifteen seconds ever standing period (use a timer), and in 3 months you'll be standing for thirty minutes at a time, assuming you practice four days per week.

The key is to make an ambitious but realistic goal, then take baby steps to achieve it. One minute a week is eminently doable.

[IronFist]

I hate to be a d.ick but there's no real benefit to being able to hold a horse stance that long. Once you get past a minute or two you're only gaining endurance, and since the only time you will be in a horse stance for long periods of time is when you're doing a form or horse stance training, that's really the only thing you're going to get better at. I'd rather spend 10 minutes lifting weights or sparring than holding a horse stance.

In other words, if your horse stance is 2 minutes, and you increase it to 10 minutes, you won't be able to squat more, you won't be able to kick harder, you won't be able to run faster, etc. The only thing you will be able to do is hold a horse stance longer. Decide how important that is to you before you spend a lot of time training it.

Welcome to the forum, btw.

[Samurai Jack]

I hate to be a d.ick but there's no real benefit to being able to hold a horse stance that long.

Standing in horse is a great willpower builder. There isn't any benefit to forcing yourself not to blink for thirty minutes, there also isn't any other benefit to sparring full contact, there isn't any other benefit to running either. These activities develop isolated skills that don't necessarily tranfer over to squating, or any other exercise, but the amount of willpower developed with these exercises just might make the difference when you're going for a PR. It also might make you better at overcoming any other type of adversity/physical pain. Squating is mind-over-matter too, especially at the advanced level. Since you can't squat all of the time, wouldn't it make sense to build your perseverance through other exercises too?

I guess I'm just playing devil's advocate, but it makes sense dosen't it?

[RickMatz]

I do YiQuan. In the group I train with, a newcomer is considered serious when he stands (zhan zhuang) until he falls down. I have fallen down a few times, and it's a great release; blockages are blown out and my training proceeds at a higher level.

Sometimes it's about something as simple as my feet have fallen asleep after 70 minutes or so.

[Valbert]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. Just knowing that a lot of you have had to do this sort of thing makes it seem like a far less daunting task.

To IronFist: I realize that being able to fight is a big part of martial arts, but it's not the only part, in my opinion. I'd say mental and physical self-improvement is very important, as is doing forms. I imagine this sort of training improves your mind. I also bet that being able to push yourself until your body quits before your mind does makes it easier to improve yourself physically. And, as you said, it will certainly help with forms.

[spiraler]

when you feel pain in your horse stance be happy! that is how you know that you are getting stronger, and thats the point that you have to push yourself past in order to become stronger. when you get to tired of holding a horse stance switch to a bow and arrow stance. this is the stance that most of us subconciously assume when we throw a punch(more or less)then when that stance gets too tired, switch to reverse bow stance, this stance will teach you how to create distance between you and your opponent to evade and block attacks. do both legs. remember train for 2 minutes and you will get 2 minute results, train for one hour and you will get 1 hour results.more importantly, listen to everything your teacher says very carefully and follow it, realize that he is the teacher and you are the student, and open your mind to his teachings.(if hes a good teacher)

[spiraler]

its true that holding a horse stance will not increase the amount of weight that you can squat. it builds springiness. just because you can squat a large amount of weight does not improve your jumping skills does it? you would think it would.
also, the horse stance increases the maximum output of your leg muscles.squats add unneccesary muscle.

[red5angel]

Once you get past a minute or two you're only gaining endurance, and since the only time you will be in a horse stance for long periods of time is when you're doing a form or horse stance training, that's really the only thing you're going to get better at



really? ever seen those guys who can go real deep, and not break a sweat?

[AndrewS]

its true that holding a horse stance will not increase the amount of weight that you can squat. it builds springiness. just because you can squat a large amount of weight does not improve your jumping skills does it? you would think it would.
also, the horse stance increases the maximum output of your leg muscles.squats add unneccesary muscle.

Oh migawd! We have to report this! Every single S&C coach on the planet and the entire strength training literature is mistaken! Increasing relative strength and improved utilization of the stretch-shortening cycle have no bearing on verticle leap, what really matters is isometric muscular strength-endurance.

Or put more simply,

*read a book*

Andrew

[IronFist]

Standing in horse is a great willpower builder.

Fair enough. But if it's willpower you're after why not do something that doesn't take so long?


There isn't any benefit to forcing yourself not to blink for thirty minutes,

No, but there's some damage that can be done by doing that.


there also isn't any other benefit to sparring full contact,

NHB fighers would disagree.


there isn't any other benefit to running either.

Sure there is. It develops cardiovascular endurance, for one thing.


These activities develop isolated skills that don't necessarily tranfer over to squating, or any other exercise,

Running does. My point wasn't that horse stance doesn't transfer over to another exercise, but that it doesn't transfer over to anything other than holding a horse stance for longer periods of time.


but the amount of willpower developed with these exercises just might make the difference when you're going for a PR. It also might make you better at overcoming any other type of adversity/physical pain. Squating is mind-over-matter too, especially at the advanced level. Since you can't squat all of the time, wouldn't it make sense to build your perseverance through other exercises too?

I suppose if someone wanted to build their willpower that way.

[IronFist]

when you feel pain in your horse stance be happy! that is how you know that you are getting stronger, and thats the point that you have to push yourself past in order to become stronger. when you get to tired of holding a horse stance switch to a bow and arrow stance. this is the stance that most of us subconciously assume when we throw a punch(more or less)then when that stance gets too tired, switch to reverse bow stance, this stance will teach you how to create distance between you and your opponent to evade and block attacks. do both legs. remember train for 2 minutes and you will get 2 minute results, train for one hour and you will get 1 hour results.more importantly, listen to everything your teacher says very carefully and follow it, realize that he is the teacher and you are the student, and open your mind to his teachings.(if hes a good teacher)

There are so many things wrong on a biological and physiological level with your entire post.


its true that holding a horse stance will not increase the amount of weight that you can squat. it builds springiness. just because you can squat a large amount of weight does not improve your jumping skills does it? you would think it would.
also, the horse stance increases the maximum output of your leg muscles.squats add unneccesary muscle.

Oh geez. I hope this was a troll attempt. Every sentence in that paragraph is wrong.

As Andrew S said, "read a book." We can suggest some if you like.

[spiraler]

ironfist, it seems to me that you have no martial arts experience, or am i wrong. isnt the horse stance the position that you assume naturally when you are going to lift something heavy? you would think that a muscle head such as yourself would know a thing about body alignment and mechanics.

[spiraler]

no thanks, books recommended by typical power hungry mma wannabes usually bore the hell out of me. basic punches and kicks will do nothing for me, niether will the ability to over develop any of my bodies muscle groups. you can only learn so much in a gym. yet sometimes brute force is all you need in the boring moderately skilled mma world.

[spiraler]

you probably tried but was never able to hold a decent stance i presume, you sound like the average wannabe to me. you shouldnt turn away knowledge until you can prove it wrong, if you continue to pursue martial arts in its entirety, you will not be able to overlook a strong horse stance, nor will you be able to put your anabolic steriod pumping creatine filled un flexible muscles to use either.

[IronFist]

^ Bwahahahaha. Normally I'd take the time to correct someone who makes as many errors as you but in this case I just don't care. The fact that you think weight training makes you inflexible is just the beginning of the gaps in your knowledge.

When you're ready to discuss science and fact, let us know.

And btw, the deadlift is about 10,000 times more similar to lifting something heavy than a horse stance is.

[Happeh]

1) Is training horse stance more a matter of training your leg muscles, or training your mind to ignore the pain?
2) Will working on meditation help with the mind over matter stuff? If so, what should I be thinking about during meditation? Counting breaths, emptying my mind, focusing on my center?
3) Got any tips for ignoring the searing pain in my legs as I try to hold horse stance?

I also happen to think my instructor knows what he's talking about. He has a very good horse stance, and he says his sifu makes him try to hold horse stance for up to 30 minutes. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks.

Don't take this personal but, You are a crybaby. ;)

Is training horse more legs or training your mind to ignore the pain? What if it was both? This is why people benefit from being thinking MA instead of just following whatever someone told them to do.

You ever here the saying "A strong mind and body"? You ever think "Why is my head bothered by the work my legs are doing"?

Your legs are directly connected to your head. If your legs hurt, your head is gonna hurt. If you make your legs strong, your head is gonna be strong. If you do it right. If you do it wrong you won't feel the connection.

Meditation? I don't know. I don't agree with it honestly. What people call meditation me and my party buddies call "spacing out". ;) I think all those "emptying the mind" kinda sayings are just giving you encouragement. You go to the teacher asking for a way to make the pain stop. He has to tell you something or you won't respect him. So he tells you that "empty your mind" stuff.

If he tells you "stop crying you pansy and get in the horse stance", you will get mad and leave. Do you watch old kung fu movies? In some of them, the new student complains about pain. You know what the teacher does? He smacks them in the head. Doesn't say a word, he just hits them. No coddling, no talking, no babying. You want to be a kung fu man, shut up and do the kung fu is the attitude those old guys had.

Nowadays between people needing paying students and working with people whose life is soft, ya gotta be nice to them or they will leave.

[Happeh]

I hate to be a d.ick but there's no real benefit to being able to hold a horse stance that long. Once you get past a minute or two you're only gaining endurance, and since the only time you will be in a horse stance for long periods of time is when you're doing a form or horse stance training, that's really the only thing you're going to get better at. I'd rather spend 10 minutes lifting weights or sparring than holding a horse stance.

In other words, if your horse stance is 2 minutes, and you increase it to 10 minutes, you won't be able to squat more, you won't be able to kick harder, you won't be able to run faster, etc. The only thing you will be able to do is hold a horse stance longer. Decide how important that is to you before you spend a lot of time training it.

Welcome to the forum, btw.


This statement is so wrong. It is wrong informationally and to state it so emphatically is wrong. People want to believe the certainty they hear, whether the information is true or not.

Standing in a horse stance will change you in a very specific way that will enhance your martial arts practice.

There is an exact explanation of how it changes a person and what the goals of the practice are.

[Vash]

This statement is so wrong. It is wrong informationally and to state it so emphatically is wrong. People want to believe the certainty they hear, whether the information is true or not.

Standing in a horse stance will change you in a very specific way that will enhance your martial arts practice.

There is an exact explanation of how it changes a person and what the goals of the practice are.

Would love to see that.

[shaolinsoccer]

What is the EXACT explanation for this. Pease enlighten us all.

[fa_jing]

its true that holding a horse stance will not increase the amount of weight that you can squat.
Well if you're sticking point is at parallel it might help a bit. It is good for stretching the hips and strengthening the joints, if you need it. Eventually you can achieve the same thing with weighted squats.




it builds springiness.
Perhaps. Not as much as running or jumping or moving stance work. Dropping into a low horse repeatedly and briskly would improve springiness from the low horse position. Depth jumps would probably be better all around though.



just because you can squat a large amount of weight does not improve your jumping skills does it?

Actually it does. My vertical is gaining along with my squat. Every Olympic athlete in nearly every Olympic sport squats for at least part of the year. Same goes for pro athletes. High volume like bodybuilding or the end of the peaking phase of a powerlifting cycle can negatively impact speed to a small degree. That's one reason why cycling is important. Bands and chains will help your speed. I don't use them though. All this stuff has been studied.



you would think it would.
also, the horse stance increases the maximum output of your leg muscles.
That remark is too nebulous to comment on. It's good for something, I'll say that.



squats add unneccesary muscle.

Unnecessary for what? If you are a jockey, sure. For fighting, it helps. Unless you want to consider some superheavyweight lifter with chafing thighs. But it is quite easy to avoid growing that big. In fact, unless you dedicate yourself night and day to growing that big, you will not. So, quite easy to avoid.

[fa_jing]

You now, I like the horse stance training. I think it safely stretches and strengthens the lower back, hips, and knees. It may help to condition the legs to take hits by raising the resting tension level. It definitely helps with chambered kicking. In conjuction with other athletic training that goes on in a KF class it can take you a long way. Like wailing on the heavy bag or airshield, crescent kicks, etc.

Another place it may help is ingraining the instinct to drop your weight when fighting. I know that when sparring, the first instinct is to stand straight up. However, I fight better with a little "sink" in my stance.

If you actually intend to fight out of a low horse, of course it would help you there.

As far as training your muscles and strength, though, I think it is inefficient. A well balanced training regimen for a fighter should include strength training. Don't rely on the horse for this.

[Ford Prefect]

Alrighty then. :eek:

[Vash]

Horse stance is too much cardio for Ironfist.

[spiraler]

i agree with everything that you said fa_jing,but i must say for the sake of completion on my behalf, 1.horse stanceis not the only stance training posture in martial arts. there are many which address not only the squatting position, the horse stance is a basic fundamental stance taught to beginners who need to develop a stronger foundation.2. one of the most important aspects of stance training is that it improves overall balance, a skill that is the lifeblood of any fighting art, the feeling you recieve when your sinking is your body being compressed into a more stable, stronger foundation to strike from, old stories tell of people who can sweep down trees due to the fact that they are so firmly rooted to support the kicking leg.3.a person with a strong foundation will be very difficult to take down, from my experience.

[spiraler]

yes it is a very difficult and "unappealing" exercise.that is why most teachers use this exercise as a sort of "initiation" to test your willpower and dedication. to be honest, the power developed from stance training is very mysterious to me, its a different kind of strength. i read once in the thirteen chapters of tai chi chuan by chang man ching, strength comes from the sinews, and power from the bones.

[SevenStar]

its true that holding a horse stance will not increase the amount of weight that you can squat. it builds springiness. just because you can squat a large amount of weight does not improve your jumping skills does it? you would think it would.
also, the horse stance increases the maximum output of your leg muscles.squats add unneccesary muscle.


I was enjoying this thread until I read that...

the squat can indeed improve your jumping skill. The horse being a static position, however, builds endurance and *minimal* strength only in the position that it is being held in.

How does horse increase the maximum output of leg muscles? What do you call unnecessary muscle?

[SevenStar]

ironfist, it seems to me that you have no martial arts experience, or am i wrong. isnt the horse stance the position that you assume naturally when you are going to lift something heavy? you would think that a muscle head such as yourself would know a thing about body alignment and mechanics.

You don't hold a horse for 10 mins before you lift...unless you are trying to summon up enough qi to perform said lift :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

a skill that is the lifeblood of any fighting art, the feeling you recieve when your sinking is your body being compressed into a more stable, stronger foundation to strike from, old stories tell of people who can sweep down trees due to the fact that they are so firmly rooted to support the kicking leg.3.a person with a strong foundation will be very difficult to take down, from my experience.


so you associate a deep root with power? what of boxers, wrestlers, judoka, etc?

[SevenStar]

This statement is so wrong. It is wrong informationally and to state it so emphatically is wrong. People want to believe the certainty they hear, whether the information is true or not.

Standing in a horse stance will change you in a very specific way that will enhance your martial arts practice.

There is an exact explanation of how it changes a person and what the goals of the practice are.


can you give us that explanation?

[spiraler]

unneccesary muscle is muscle that impairs flexibilty, overdeveloped. okay while doing a squat the front leg thigh muscles are being overworked and the hind hamstrings are being underworked. as a result a weight lifter will have bad knees. stance(not just horse) training makes sure that eventually under strain every leg muscle will be strained and worked(if the stance is correct) you will also be able to make yourself heavier by sticking and sinking to the ground. you are a martial arts teacher yet you discredit stance training? squats are good, weight training is good also. and it is expected to hear so many negative views on stance training. also please forgive me if i am unclear, i think a little too quickly, and most of my info is from experience. i can squat a good 325 10 times easily, and im 135 5'6", i got this ability not from stance training but from power lifting training. static training gives me a feeling of power in my leg, an explosive inexaustble power, ive been lifting weights since i was 13, its nothing new, yet stance training ive only been doing for a few months and feel a drastic increase in power "during combat"

[spiraler]

i have experience in each field of martial arts, i wrestled in high school and am a judoka currently, so i still get down with very formidable wrestlers, as for boxing, my dad showed me a thing or two, and so did the streets that i grew up on, a wrestlers on guard position is sunk very deeply, making them hard to tke down and quick offensively and defensively, a boxer roots his feet into the ground when he executes a punch, if not he will be pushed away rather than srtike the opponent, a judoka is constantly sinking before each throw is executed. you cannot escape stances unles you cut your legs off.

[spiraler]

You don't hold a horse for 10 mins before you lift...unless you are trying to summon up enough qi to perform said lift :rolleyes:

the horse stance is the POSITION that your body is in prior to execution of a deadlift, who said anything about holding a horse stance

[IronFist]

unneccesary muscle is muscle that impairs flexibilty, overdeveloped.

Um... Do you know how a muscle works? That's a pretty inaccurate statement. Size is not at all related to flexibility.


okay while doing a squat the front leg thigh muscles are being overworked and the hind hamstrings are being underworked. as a result a weight lifter will have bad knees.

Wrong. The hamstrings also assist the hips in flexing when you STAND UP. Sounds like a squat, doesn't it? When done properly, barbell squats are one of the best hamstring developers ever (next to deadlifts). Weight lifters have bad knees if they use poor form.


you will also be able to make yourself heavier by sticking and sinking to the ground.

Please go take an introductory physics course.


i can squat a good 325 10 times easily, and im 135 5'6",

I doubt it. Do you do frat boy squats where you only go down 2"? Or is that on leg press or smith machine or something? I bet you can't even unrack 325. If you post a vid of you doing TWO reps with 325 ass to the grass I will retract my statement. Or, a pic of you with that much weight on the bar at the BOTTOM of a squat. Oh wait, I'm sure you probably don't have a camera or something, right? The reason I call complete BS on this is because a) you have demonstrated that you have no knowledge when it comes to physiology and b) that computes to over a 3x bodyweight squat 1 rep max, and no one gets a 3x bodyweight squat without knowing something about physiology (unless they have some sick ass genetics).


ive been lifting weights since i was 13, its nothing new,

Dude, your e-c0ck is so big. We're all jealous.

Seriously.

[IronFist]

Physiological proof:

Basic physiology principle: SAID (specific adaptation to imposed demands). In other words, your body gets better at what you do and worse at what you don't do. This is why marathoners don't train with sprints, and why sprinters have no use for long distance running in their training.

How it relates here: if you hold stances for long periods of time your muscles will become better at holding one position for long periods of time. This does not translate into kicking, punching, weightlifting, or anything other than holding one position for long periods of time.

Real-world proof:

If stance training were useful for building strength, olympic level weightlifters would do it.

If stance training were useful for building speed, olympic level speed skaters/runners/basketball players/soccer players would do it.

If stance training were useful for fighting, professional fighters (UFC/Pride/Boxing) would do it.

You can't refute that. Why would people whose lives and income depend on being the best in the world at their given sport NOT undertake a particular training method if it would benefit them? Please don't go into "old kung fu masters know the workout secrets that elude modern sports scientists" mode.

Finally, someone said something about squatting or explosive weight lifting not improving your jumping... um... you do know that 300lb olympic lifters have INSANE vertical jumps, right? And it's certaintly not from playing basket ball or doing horse stance all day.

[spiraler]

Um... Do you know how a muscle works? That's a pretty inaccurate statement. Size is not at all related to flexibility.

it all depends on which muscles that you want to build, do you want to be pretty?a worlds strongest man competitor? or a martial artist?gymnist,whatever. Im not familiar to your regimen.

Wrong. The hamstrings also assist the hips in flexing when you STAND UP. Sounds like a squat, doesn't it? When done properly, barbell squats are one of the best hamstring developers ever (next to deadlifts). Weight lifters have bad knees if they use poor form.

what other style of squats do you know?theres front, reverse(behind the legs)over the head,shoulders,and theres alternate grips. these exercises are average for building hamstring strength.so are deadlifts, they dont do anything special for the hamstrings as much as they do for the back, frontal thigh, arms/shoulders.

Please go take an introductory physics course.



I doubt it. Do you do frat boy squats where you only go down 2"? Or is that on leg press or smith machine or something? I bet you can't even unrack 325. If you post a vid of you doing TWO reps with 325 ass to the grass I will retract my statement. Or, a pic of you with that much weight on the bar at the BOTTOM of a squat. Oh wait, I'm sure you probably don't have a camera or something, right? The reason I call complete BS on this is because a) you have demonstrated that you have no knowledge when it comes to physiology and b) that computes to over a 3x bodyweight squat 1 rep max, and no one gets a 3x bodyweight squat without knowing something about physiology (unless they have some sick ass genetics).

actually it is a leg press, my mistake.

Dude, your e-c0ck is so big. We're all jealous.

Seriously.

nice witty yet ambiguously gay comment.

[spiraler]

Physiological proof:

Basic physiology principle: SAID (specific adaptation to imposed demands). In other words, your body gets better at what you do and worse at what you don't do. This is why marathoners don't train with sprints, and why sprinters have no use for long distance running in their training.

How it relates here: if you hold stances for long periods of time your muscles will become better at holding one position for long periods of time. This does not translate into kicking, punching, weightlifting, or anything other than holding one position for long periods of time.

Real-world proof:

If stance training were useful for building strength, olympic level weightlifters would do it.

If stance training were useful for building speed, olympic level speed skaters/runners/basketball players/soccer players would do it.

If stance training were useful for fighting, professional fighters (UFC/Pride/Boxing) would do it.

You can't refute that. Why would people whose lives and income depend on being the best in the world at their given sport NOT undertake a particular training method if it would benefit them? Please don't go into "old kung fu masters know the workout secrets that elude modern sports scientists" mode.

Finally, someone said something about squatting or explosive weight lifting not improving your jumping... um... you do know that 300lb olympic lifters have INSANE vertical jumps, right? And it's certaintly not from playing basket ball or doing horse stance all day.

okay so i guess youve made your points.

here are mine. 1. ive said before that stance training does not build power moreso it stores power, that is why olympic lifters may not use it, yet you do not truly know do you? 2. how can you say that professional fighters do not use stance training? one reason why you do not understand stance training is because you are probably just a muscle head focused to much on physical strength, stance training builds balance needed to execute techniques with power. weight lifting is good i guess for strength training, but stance training will help you learn how to shift your weight into an attack without moving your feet, or jumping into it. tell me what weight lifting exercise can you do to improve your ability to shift your body weight. tell me a weight training exercise that will improve your fighting skill, there are none. im not saying stance training is the ultimate training exercise,although to some it may be. im saying that stance training will make you a better fighter, not able to lift more weight,or jump higher,although i gained about 3 inches on my jump. you are right that im not a physiologist or a physicist but i know i am in touch with my inner as well as outer body,so unless im trying to get a job in any of those fields. i dont need it.

[IronFist]

here are mine. 1. ive said before that stance training does not build power moreso it stores power, that is why olympic lifters may not use it,

Please explain to me the physiological implications of "storing" power. How does this process work in the muscle? What role does the central nervous system play in this process? Which types of muscle fibers are involved? What is happening on a cellular level? How is the metabolism involved? How is it measured and tested?

[WinterPalm]

I think the horse stance is great training for Kung Fu. In fact, it is integral to the art. The difference it has from squating is that you are sinking your bodyweight, feeling the relaxation, which is a mental training aspect, as well as developing will power. The way your chain of joints and muscles from the toes through the knees, hips, shoulders, and spinal column creates a strength building of a subtle way that challenges the structure to be integrated as a whole. This has carry over to the other elements of training such as forms, sparring, and daily life when your body can respond as an integrated unit for every day activities. I

I don't believe that weight lifting can give one all of these attributes. However, I've got nothing against weight lifting and don't believe those superstitions about flexibility and such, but I think that as an element of training, many people over-emphasize the strength element over the integrated relaxation of stance and form training. This creates some tense people!
World class athetes are competing to be the best in a specific way, some train at more than one sport but usually specialize in only one. This integration is not necessary for them to train in, they need to have very fast legs, not a good rooted stance.
Boxers, wrestlers and other combat atheletes all train their legs and integrated body in one way or another with similar intents. They all want to be able to root when they hit or grab or throw so that they are solid and deliver enough force

[fa_jing]

That's it! I'm going to work up to a 2-rep ass to grass squat at 335! Then, I can convince Ironfist that I can do 10 reps with it! :rolleyes: :D

[Samurai Jack]

Dude, I've never heard of a powerlifter who didn't know the difference between a squat and a leg-press. It's certainly alright to have an opinion that differs from the norm, or even to be ignorant on a subject you claim to know something about. On the other hand, lying and name calling don't do much to support the validity of an opinion...

[IronFist]

The other thing about horse stance is that people usually tuck their pelvis under and straighten their back to "promote qi flow" or whatever. That may be fine and well for promoting qi flow (after all, in standing post qigong you keep a straight back), but it's a bad habit to get into when it comes to needing strength. Your back is very strong when it's arched (pelvis sticking out) and very weak when it's elongated, so this is just more proof that a horse stance isn't similiar to picking something up. It's also the reason you arch your back when squatting and deadlifting.

[IronFist]

Dude, I've never heard of a powerlifter who didn't know the difference between a squat and a leg-press. It's certainly alright to have an opinion that differs from the norm, or even to be ignorant on a subject you claim to know something about. On the other hand, lying and name calling don't do much to support the validity of an opinion...

Wait are you talking to me?

[Samurai Jack]

No Ironfist. You know the difference between a squat and a leg-press, are not lying about your abilities, and haven't answered honest questions with insulting names.

That's what I get for sticking my nose where it dosen't belong. I have a cold and don't feel like beating this dead ol' horse. Please ignore the peanut gallery and carry on.

:D

[Happeh]

The other thing about horse stance is that people usually tuck their pelvis under and straighten their back to "promote qi flow" or whatever. That may be fine and well for promoting qi flow (after all, in standing post qigong you keep a straight back), but it's a bad habit to get into when it comes to needing strength.


The world is doomed. So many people these days have no clue about martial arts. They think martial arts is UFC and MMA and weightlifting.

"A bad habit when it comes to needing strength", oh man I am laughing. ;)

[Happeh]

can you give us that explanation?

Sure. Maybe later.

How about I give you a clue instead. Have you ever heard of standing? Not standing up. The kung fu practice of standing.

If that guy is right that there is no point in doing a horse stance for more than 2 minutes, why does the practice of standing even exist?

The more I think about that guy the more I laugh. ;) Come on dood. Asian people been doing horse stance for a long time. Then you come along and with your wisdom you declare "there is no point in doing a horse stance for longer than two mintues".

Can't you see how foolish that sounds? Asians been stupid for hundreds of years? Just waiting for you to come along and tell them how it is done? ;)

[IronFist]

Sure. Maybe later.

How about I give you a clue instead. Have you ever heard of standing? Not standing up. The kung fu practice of standing.

If that guy is right that there is no point in doing a horse stance for more than 2 minutes, why does the practice of standing even exist?

The more I think about that guy the more I laugh. ;) Come on dood. Asian people been doing horse stance for a long time. Then you come along and with your wisdom you declare "there is no point in doing a horse stance for longer than two mintues".

Can't you see how foolish that sounds? Asians been stupid for hundreds of years? Just waiting for you to come along and tell them how it is done? ;)

Obviously you lack the analytical thinking abilities to understand what I'm talking about.

As I said, practicing to stand in a horse stance for long periods of time will make you better at standing in a horse stance for long periods of time. From a physiological perspective, the skill won't carry over to much else for reasons we already touched on a few pages ago.

Who cares how long "Asians" have been doing it? Time and tradition don't hold scientific weight. People used to think the earth went around the sun. "Do you know how long people had been thinking that" when a new theory came about? Does it matter?

It depends on what your goals are. If you want to be able to hold a horse stance for a long time, then by all means, go practice holding your horse stance for a long time. But if you want increased strength and power, you'd be wasting your time in doing so. People don't even use horse stance in fighting (I mean real fighting, not that slappy stuff they do in McKwoons).



The world is doomed. So many people these days have no clue about martial arts. They think martial arts is UFC and MMA and weightlifting.

"A bad habit when it comes to needing strength", oh man I am laughing.

Why don't you go talk to a chiropractor about what happens if you submit the spine to a heavy load and it's not arched?

But go ahead and believe all the kung fu people and all the "sifu says" crap. After all, kung fu people are the ones who tell you to "lift things with your tendons" (which we all know is impossible) when you're training, or to throw a punch without using any muscle tension (also impossible) which is why I always say "never learn about physiology from a martial artist."

btw, martial arts is about fighting and winning, at least in my opinion. If you've practiced an art for any length of time and can't fight with it you've been wasting your time. The ones who drone on and on about body mechanics and soft energy and qi and spiraling palms and blah blah blah are the ones who usually can't beat a boxer with 1 month of training.

Anyway, if I thought you were honest about wanting to learn then we could have a decent discussion, but you're either one of those closed minded "sifu is always right" drones or you're just trolling for fun, so either way it doesn't matter what any of us say.

[Mo Lung]

Man, you guys are all discussing different points here! Here are the main points as I see it.

1. Horse stance training will make you better at horse stance.

2. Horse stance (and other stance training) with a straight back is essential for qi cultivation in qi gong practice and power and alignment in kung fu.

3. Extended horse stance will NOT make you stronger at lifting heavy weights.

4. Lifting heavy weights WILL make you stronger at lifting heavy weights.

5. Lifting heavy weights will NOT make you better at horse stance.

6. When you lift a heavy weight, you arch the spine to protect it from injury.

7. When you are doing stance training, you are not lifting a heavy weight.

8. In order to fight well, you do need to understand body mechanics, alignment, relaxed power, etc. This doesn't mean that you don't also need to be strong.

Therefore:

To increase strength and power, lift weights.

To increase stance ability and develop your kung fu and qi gong practice, use stance training. Stance training should also include training to move the stances, in other footwork. I'm sure everyone will agree that good footwork is essential to good fighting.

These things are not mutually exclusive - you should do both if you are serious about your kung fu. You should also stretch for flexibility and eat well and get enough sleep and be nice to your mother, etc.. None of these things are mutually exclusive.

[IronFist]

Please explain to me the physiological implications of "storing" power. How does this process work in the muscle? What role does the central nervous system play in this process? Which types of muscle fibers are involved? What is happening on a cellular level? How is the metabolism involved? How is it measured and tested?

I still wanna know about that. Come on.

[spiraler]

stance training teaches you how to shift your weight into an attack, it also teaches you how to sink your center of gravity physics and gravity apply to this. it also gives you awareness of your body and understanding of these postures.
what does stance training train?1.patience and perseverence.2footwork(since in stance training you hold each stance for 5 mins and alternate stances all totaling out to about an hour and a half.3.internal energy,during stance training your legs get very tired,therefore in order to hold the stance you must learn to relax the muscles in use as much as possible,to relax you must focus on your breathing, once you begin to focus on breathing you sink into deeper levels of concentration,the mind gets calmer and eventally the chi will sink to the navel.
also ordinary work will become easier because you will learn to keepm your back straight and bend your legs. any other questions? p.s. storing is just an analogy to help you understand better. hopefully this arguement has clarified or inspired you to seek the truth in martial training. no hard feelings.

spiraler

[SevenStar]

none of which requires a 10 minute horse... I know WHY people do stance training, but such durations are really unnecessary.

[SevenStar]

Boxers, wrestlers and other combat atheletes all train their legs and integrated body in one way or another with similar intents. They all want to be able to root when they hit or grab or throw so that they are solid and deliver enough force

bingo. and we do it without extended duration stance training.

[AndrewS]

Without getting into the physiology, here- a quick anecdote.

I've had the chance to work with a number of prominent 'internal' martial artists, including Mike Sigman, Yang Yang, Nick Graceinin, and Ed Hampton (senior student of Vince Black), as well as a people training under those folks.

In terms of pure 'root', I couldn't discern any signficant difference in their ability to 'ground' force compared with a a 15 year private student of Rene Latosa's who I've trained with pretty regularly, or Rene Latosa himself. We won't talk about waist use, softness, or short power, as some of the above I didn't have my hands on enough to offer comment on meaningfully.

Neither Mr. Latosa, nor his student, did any stance training. All their work was in motion, partner balance checks, and, of course, heavy weapons work.

I've done a great deal of stance work in the past, taught a fair number of people, and have come to the conclusion that everything I've seen and felt developed in stance work can be gotten faster, with less effort, and by more people with partner work and some assist exercises.

Later,

Andrew

[spiraler]

bingo. and we do it without extended duration stance training.

good for you.

[spiraler]

Without getting into the physiology, here- a quick anecdote.

I've had the chance to work with a number of prominent 'internal' martial artists, including Mike Sigman, Yang Yang, Nick Graceinin, and Ed Hampton (senior student of Vince Black), as well as a people training under those folks.

In terms of pure 'root', I couldn't discern any signficant difference in their ability to 'ground' force compared with a a 15 year private student of Rene Latosa's who I've trained with pretty regularly, or Rene Latosa himself. We won't talk about waist use, softness, or short power, as some of the above I didn't have my hands on enough to offer comment on meaningfully.

Neither Mr. Latosa, nor his student, did any stance training. All their work was in motion, partner balance checks, and, of course, heavy weapons work.

I've done a great deal of stance work in the past, taught a fair number of people, and have come to the conclusion that everything I've seen and felt developed in stance work can be gotten faster, with less effort, and by more people with partner work and some assist exercises.

Later,

Andrew

true, stance training is one effective way out of many

[Toby]

Lol! Eventually someone had to come along and replace Eyebrows. Looks like we have a winner (or two winners). Lucky I've gone part-time, 'cause I'm itching to get stuck into this thread.

[Hau Tien]

I think all those "emptying the mind" kinda sayings are just giving you encouragement. You go to the teacher asking for a way to make the pain stop. He has to tell you something or you won't respect him. So he tells you that "empty your mind" stuff.

If he tells you "stop crying you pansy and get in the horse stance", you will get mad and leave.


I've had the benefit of having two teachers who would tell me that almost exactly ;) It's a blow to the ego, but I find it a great motivator.

My old teacher used to have us stand in a horse stand, ding stance, and a reverse bow-and-arrow stance. My horse was up to 20 minutes at that point... My legs are stronger and I'm at least 50lbs lighter now, so I imagine I can do it even longer now.

As for benefits to it? My legs have not gotten tired in class in years. Also, I feel I have a much better root than I would otherwise. I'd say those are both very good benefits ;)

[fa_jing]

Mo seems to have broken it down fairly. Couple of things. Just because no NFL player does stance training, doesn't mean no NFL player would benefit from it. It just means that there are other ways at getting the results. For instance, in Russia they recommend that boxers do repetitive snatches with bodyweight, or so I hear. They feel that this improves their boxing. The Russians are pretty good at boxing, but the US boxers are better overall. The US boxers don't practice the snatch as far as I know. Can we draw the conclusion, then, that snatches with bodyweight are useless for a boxer? That no US boxer would benefit from the practice of same? I don't think so. That's the thing about kung fu "gong" - it worked for somebody somewhere sometime. Probably multiple people. And perhaps it did not work for many others. The important thing is to recognize that many ideas are out there that might help you achieve a particular goal, but that you can't be dogmatic or follow your teacher blindly.

Now about the horse stance:

1. Long periods of time are more likely to induce relaxation of joints and antagonistic muscles and connective tissue. Horse stance is the #1 thing that helped my lower back problems. However, I no longer need it.

2. The drawback is that horse stance for long periods of time is demanding and cuts into your training regimen. And it is specific to perhaps the point of absurdity. No range of motion.

3. Most of us wouldn't recommend running 8 miles a day 6 days a week either, for similar reasons.

I do plan to re-introduce 2 minute stance holds into my training this summer, when I switch from heavy lifting to more kettlebell and bodyweight outdoor training.

I really like the one-legged stance (golden rooster) for stance holds.

There is so much to do and many exercises to pick from, so concerns about a workout that really covers all the bases is valid. Just holding a horse stance definitely does not cover the bases, and in the extreme can work against covering all the bases.

[SevenStar]

I think that pretty much sums it up.

[spiraler]

Mo seems to have broken it down fairly. Couple of things. Just because no NFL player does stance training, doesn't mean no NFL player would benefit from it. It just means that there are other ways at getting the results. For instance, in Russia they recommend that boxers do repetitive snatches with bodyweight, or so I hear. They feel that this improves their boxing. The Russians are pretty good at boxing, but the US boxers are better overall. The US boxers don't practice the snatch as far as I know. Can we draw the conclusion, then, that snatches with bodyweight are useless for a boxer? That no US boxer would benefit from the practice of same? I don't think so. That's the thing about kung fu "gong" - it worked for somebody somewhere sometime. Probably multiple people. And perhaps it did not work for many others. The important thing is to recognize that many ideas are out there that might help you achieve a particular goal, but that you can't be dogmatic or follow your teacher blindly.

Now about the horse stance:

1. Long periods of time are more likely to induce relaxation of joints and antagonistic muscles and connective tissue. Horse stance is the #1 thing that helped my lower back problems. However, I no longer need it.

2. The drawback is that horse stance for long periods of time is demanding and cuts into your training regimen. And it is specific to perhaps the point of absurdity. No range of motion.

3. Most of us wouldn't recommend running 8 miles a day 6 days a week either, for similar reasons.

I do plan to re-introduce 2 minute stance holds into my training this summer, when I switch from heavy lifting to more kettlebell and bodyweight outdoor training.

I really like the one-legged stance (golden rooster) for stance holds.

There is so much to do and many exercises to pick from, so concerns about a workout that really covers all the bases is valid. Just holding a horse stance definitely does not cover the bases, and in the extreme can work against covering all the bases.


stance training does not seek to cover all the bases, it is merely foundation for techniques and application,it does not cover the bases, but it teaches you how to cover them.

[red5angel]

1. Long periods of time are more likely to induce relaxation of joints and antagonistic muscles and connective tissue. Horse stance is the #1 thing that helped my lower back problems. However, I no longer need it.


What sort of back problems fa jing? I'm haing some soreness issue in capoeira and looking to fix that.

[fa_jing]

Low back and upper back. The left of the sacrum and the right side of the upper spine, primarily. I have a leg length difference and a number of times I "threw out" my back. I was told by a Chiro that I had "bulging discs" and mild scoliosis. The lower back is now 99% healed. The upper back I still have some problems with, but it doesn't hold me back from training anymore, as long as I'm intelligent about it. In my case that means doing alot of one-armed training or training with exercises that allow both arms to move independantly of each other. So DB bench is better than barbell bench - for me, though I do both. If I did exclusively barbell bench I'd have a problem, for example. I have an alignment issue in my upper back - one shoulder is hiked up higher than the other.

Also contributing to my recovery was calesthenics, stretching/Yoga, Accupunture, and Rolfing (like deep tissue massage)

For a quick fix, I recommend Bridging. Gymnastic or Wrestler's bridge or both.

[red5angel]

I'm doing the bridging stuff along with some pilates. I'm just at that point of frustration where you are working on something, making small gains, but at the same time the working on that issue takes up more time then you need. Ah well, patience I guess!

[ewallace]

One fact most of the "muscle-heads" here are missing...holding a horse stance for long periods of time really increase the strength of the lower abs. In women it spot-reduces fat on the inner thigh.

[AndrewS]

'Lower abs'- which anatomic structure would those be again?

'Spot reduces fat on the inner thigh'- ummm, you are joking right?

Briefly- the abdominal musculature works in coordination, there are no 'upper and lower abs'- just rectus abdominus, internal and external obliques, transversus abdominus, the diaphragm, illiopsoas, quadratus lumborum, extensor muscles of the spine, and pelvic floor.

Spot reduction is a myth and falacy debunked decades ago. You may build adductor strength by wide low stances (or by squatting wide or doing sumo deadlifts). This may firm up the inner thigh.

Andrew

[Hau Tien]

One fact most of the "muscle-heads" here are missing...holding a horse stance for long periods of time really increase the strength of the lower abs. In women it spot-reduces fat on the inner thigh.

haha... nice. And already one incredulous response.

I love the Internet.

[rubthebuddha]

ewallace just spadged the forum. :D

andrew: lower abs is one of our favorite running jokes around here. spot reduction significantly less so, but no one can deny it's ability to bring a giggle every now and then.

i'll agree with fajing on the rolfing. my left hip was rotated under while my right was golden, which basically left me with a bit of a half-hip-tuck. caused back problems for years. had a rolfer spend around 90 minutes on it, and not once since then have i had problems. rolfing plus making deadlifts my main back exercise have made a hyoooge difference in the health of my lower back. :cool:

[Happeh]

As I said, practicing to stand in a horse stance for long periods of time will make you better at standing in a horse stance for long periods of time. From a physiological perspective, the skill won't carry over to much else for reasons we already touched on a few pages ago.

Who cares how long "Asians" have been doing it? Time and tradition don't hold scientific weight. People used to think the earth went around the sun. "Do you know how long people had been thinking that" when a new theory came about? Does it matter?


You are completely wrong. As for who cares how long "asians" have been doing it. I can't believe you said that. Every person I have ever come in contact with, the first question out of their mouths is "what is your lineage? How long has your teacher been practicing". My point is that time at a particular task is usually indicative of experience. I "care" that "asians" have been doing horse stance for hundreds of years because they are the experts. They invented the kung fu we are all talking about.



But go ahead and believe all the kung fu people and all the "sifu says" crap. After all, kung fu people are the ones who tell you to "lift things with your tendons" (which we all know is impossible) when you're training, or to throw a punch without using any muscle tension (also impossible) which is why I always say "never learn about physiology from a martial artist."

You don't know what you are talking about. "We all" don't know any such thing as you claim. "We all" know that uppity western scientists who usually look like geeks, dweebs, nerds and losers have written up lots of scientific papers for money claiming they know all about physical exercise and how it works.

These men have spent their lives in colleges studying books and listening to people talk. Most of them have never actually practiced a martial art in their life. But for some reason, because they have a degree or an "expert" sign on their door, people automagically beleive ever word they say.



btw, martial arts is about fighting and winning, at least in my opinion. If you've practiced an art for any length of time and can't fight with it you've been wasting your time. The ones who drone on and on about body mechanics and soft energy and qi and spiraling palms and blah blah blah are the ones who usually can't beat a boxer with 1 month of training.

You have not been wasting your time if you trained in an art and can't win a fight with it. Your brain is stuck on the concept that two people must exchange blows for someone to win a fight. After you have been in martial arts for awhile, you will learn that you can win a fight by never getting in a fight. Simple concept huh? Did you know that you have every right to run away from a fight if you want to? Are you a loser? That depends on how you think.

Let me present you with an idea. What if martial arts are a shiny toy to get the attention of little boys who otherwise would not listen?

If I set down and talk about spiraling and qi and blah blah, you just said you would not listen to me. But you need to know about that stuff. I am stuck. How do I get you to listen to me? Oh. I know. Little boys like showy stuff. So if I show you I can throw you across the room with a 1 inch punch, then you will listen to me. Even if I talk about chi and spiral palms you will continue to listen because I threw you across the room with a 1 inch punch.

I can't do that and I am not saying I am some master or the other. I am trying to open your mind to show you how people think and why ideas and concepts are developed the way they are.

[MasterKiller]

Who cares how long "Asians" have been doing it? Time and tradition don't hold scientific weight. People used to think the earth went around the sun. "Do you know how long people had been thinking that" when a new theory came about? Does it matter? Boy...those people that thought the Earth moved around the sun were some real dipsh1ts, huh?

[Happeh]

These things are not mutually exclusive - you should do both if you are serious about your kung fu. You should also stretch for flexibility and eat well and get enough sleep and be nice to your mother, etc.. None of these things are mutually exclusive.

That was good of you to step in and be a referee.

I disagree with the statement above. If you weighlift there is a high liklihood of you becoming so stiff that you will never learn kung fu properly.

Some people it is no problem. If you know kung fu principles, then you can weight lift using the kung fu principles and the body that you already have trained properly.

A person who has not trained their body properly? If they weightlift, the weightlifting empahsizes the problems the person has. It is like building a house. If a rectangular, level foundation is poured, a nice and stable house can be built upon it. But if the foundation is crooked? And it is slanted downhill? You can still build a beatiful house on it. No one will ever know that the foundation is slanted and crooked.

Until the first earthquake.

Just like people see all the muscles on a weightlifter and they think "ohhhh. strong". But when someone who is grounded puts pressure on the weightlifter, he will be upended and fall over. You see it all the time in UFC and Pride fights. Some big monster comes in and a little guy grabs his legs and throws him to the ground.

Those big arm muscles scare the heck out of people. But if you know kung fu, you know that almost all of those guys got weak legs and are unstable. The legs got big muscles and look strong. But the part of the legs that make a person stable is usually not there in weightlifter guys.

Thanks again for the referee action. I am new so maybe I ought to say I got no hard feelings about anybody or anything. I talk alot and say what I think. I strongly stand up for what I believe in, maybe even being a little rude to people. I don't mean nothing by it though. It is just a friendly conversation to me and we are all still friends. I wouldn't want to punch anyone or chase them around no matter what they said to me here. This is all just words.

[Vash]

Boy...those people that thought the Earth moved around the sun were some real dipsh1ts, huh?

Bull****. Next thing you're gonna say is, "well, the earth sure isn't flat, is it?"

Frikkin hippies.

[Happeh]

The left of the sacrum and the right side of the upper spine, primarily. I have a leg length difference and a number of times I "threw out" my back. I was told by a Chiro that I had "bulging discs" and mild scoliosis. both.

Do you know why you have a leg length difference?

Or why the left side of the sacrum and right side of the upper spine have problems?

:rolleyes:

[ewallace]

You don't know what you are talking about. "We all" don't know any such thing as you claim. "We all" know that uppity western scientists who usually look like geeks, dweebs, nerds and losers have written up lots of scientific papers for money claiming they know all about physical exercise and how it works.

These men have spent their lives in colleges studying books and listening to people talk. Most of them have never actually practiced a martial art in their life. But for some reason, because they have a degree or an "expert" sign on their door, people automagically beleive ever word they say.

I'll let IF handle this one. :rolleyes:



You have not been wasting your time if you trained in an art and can't win a fight with it. Your brain is stuck on the concept that two people must exchange blows for someone to win a fight. After you have been in martial arts for awhile, you will learn that you can win a fight by never getting in a fight. Simple concept huh? Did you know that you have every right to run away from a fight if you want to? Are you a loser? That depends on how you think.

Alright, that is a load of horse pucky. You don't (or shouldn't) need any amount of time in martial arts to know that you can win a fight by never getting in one. My mom and my girlfriends in middle and high school used to tell me that. Martial arts are for those times when you cannot run, cannot talk your way out of a situation. I really emphasis the word "Martial" here.

I cannot begin to count the number of posters that have come on this forum, saying essentially the same things (read: Myths) about weight training being bad for kung fu, and how you will get stiff...not flow like water...et al.

A few end up leaving, the majority eventually STFU and open their mind and ears/eyes (same thing they accuse others of not doing) and listen to people who know WTF they are talking about, because they have put in the reasearch, time and the work.

You are making assumptions about some posters on this forum you know next to nothing about. These are some of the most knowledgable people on these boards. And most of them practice kung fu, or did at one time or another.

[unkokusai]

You are completely wrong. As for who cares how long "asians" have been doing it. I can't believe you said that. Every person I have ever come in contact with, the first question out of their mouths is "what is your lineage? How long has your teacher been practicing". My point is that time at a particular task is usually indicative of experience. I "care" that "asians" have been doing horse stance for hundreds of years because they are the experts.



One of the more bizarre forms of racism I've seen in a while.

[unkokusai]

Do you know why you have a leg length difference?:


Yeah, 'cause my third one is so long!

[unkokusai]

I disagree with the statement above. If you weighlift there is a high liklihood of you becoming so stiff that you will never learn kung fu properly..


More evidence that fantasy boy here is completely divorced from reality. :rolleyes:

[fa_jing]

In case somebody is reading along and thinking this guy knows his material:

"If you weighlift there is a high liklihood of you becoming so stiff that you will never learn kung fu properly"

Olypmic weightlifters were found to be the most flexible among the athletes at the 1968 Mexico City games.

It is possible to use weights to train flexibility.

Powerlifters in the heavy classes seem to get pretty stiff. However, this is intentional.

A well designed weight routine can achieve almost any exercise goal. Not that it's the only path to every exercise goal.

[fa_jing]

"Do you know why you have a leg length difference?

Or why the left side of the sacrum and right side of the upper spine have problems?"

Apparently, I haven't been practicing Horse Stance enough. ;)

[ewallace]

Just like people see all the muscles on a weightlifter and they think "ohhhh. strong". But when someone who is grounded puts pressure on the weightlifter, he will be upended and fall over. You see it all the time in UFC and Pride fights. Some big monster comes in and a little guy grabs his legs and throws him to the ground.

Those big arm muscles scare the heck out of people. But if you know kung fu, you know that almost all of those guys got weak legs and are unstable. The legs got big muscles and look strong. But the part of the legs that make a person stable is usually not there in weightlifter guys.

Not trying to pick on you dude, but if you really believe that, it is a very dangerous mindset. One that could backfire very easily.

[Mo Lung]

I disagree with the statement above. If you weighlift there is a high liklihood of you becoming so stiff that you will never learn kung fu properly.This is absolutely and utterly untrue (and proven to be so in numerous studies.) You are completely wrong about this. And you are completely wrong in the majority of this post and most of your other ones. The few bits of correctness that come through are more by luck than real knowledge.

Thanks again for the referee action. I am new so maybe I ought to say I got no hard feelings about anybody or anything. I talk alot and say what I think. I strongly stand up for what I believe in, maybe even being a little rude to people. I don't mean nothing by it though. It is just a friendly conversation to me and we are all still friends. I wouldn't want to punch anyone or chase them around no matter what they said to me here. This is all just words.You are new and maybe you should talk less and listen more until you are less new. You think you have all the answers, but you absolutely do not. There's a lot of people here that know an awful lot about the subject. And most of us are quite open with who we are and what we know too, so just settle down a bit and open your mind.

[IronFist]

Boy...those people that thought the Earth moved around the sun were some real dipsh1ts, huh?

Bwahahahahaha.

MasterKiller > Me :D

[IronFist]

Weightlifting and flexibility...

You know what happens if you become too flexible for the amount of strength you have, right? Flexibility without strength is an injury waiting to happen.