Slightly OT: Art vs. Craft vs. Science

[Fu-Pow]

We often refer to what we do as Martial "Art."

But martial "art" is as much a craft and a science as it is an "art."

How do you distinguish between the 3?

[MasterKiller]

"Art" implies expression. It is a much more personal designation than craft or science.

[SevenStar]

art = expression

craft = work

science = theory


they should all be present in any system in some fashion, no?

[red5angel]

Art= Yer mom's playboy centerfold

Craft= Yer mom on a street corner

Science= what it's gonna take to figure out what yer mom got doing her craft

[PangQuan]

Art= Yer mom's playboy centerfold

Craft= Yer mom on a street corner

Science= what it's gonna take to figure out what yer mom got doing her craft

LOL, you and "your mom" refferences.

[red5angel]

:D

you talkin' 'bout my mom?!

[rogue]

I'd let your mom say hi but she's a little busy at the moment. :D


art = field of study
craft = skilled practice of the art
science = what makes the art work

[ZIM]

I don't know about all those definitions. I mean, yeah, they're good and all, but I'm none too certain they're helpful.

And that's not to say I'm being helpful, either. :p

It occured to me when I read the first list that maybe taking it from another angle might work. A little like so:
We call MA's "art" because thats what they are, as distinguished from
-"science", best typified by 'military science', which is more concerned with larger tactical or strategic or logistic things. MAs may have had those at one point [eagle claw and hsing yi, for instance, were 2 'army' based arts, at least so we're told. They might have had parts of those subjects within them]
-"crafts", OTOH, might be better viewed as supporting 'lore', like woodcraft or orienteering is for the US Army Rangers.

Does that help? Prob'ly not. Is USMC hand-to-hand training an art, craft, science, or something else? Where would you put shooting or knife fighting?

[Becca]

... Does that help? Prob'ly not. Is USMC hand-to-hand training an art, craft, science, or something else? Where would you put shooting or knife fighting?
Hand to hand training in the military is a tool, and there fore a craft to be mastered. Same for knife fighting and shooting. But, like anything else, all of them can be elevated to the level of "art" by a dedicated student of that discipline. I had the opportunity to attend a few marksmanship comatitions. I got to see some people who have refined thier talent well beyond just being proficient. These are the ones who I would call an artist in thier field. Then I saw some who could hit what they were shooting at even under challenging conditions, but had no passion for what they were doing, only for "winning". These were not artists, IMO.

[rogue]

Is USMC hand-to-hand training an art, craft, science, or something else? They call it an art. IMO what we call martial "arts" is really made up of all three parts.

[David Jamieson]

ART
art1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ärt)
n.
Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.

The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
The study of these activities.
The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.
A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.

A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.

Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: “Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice” (Joyce Carol Oates).

arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.
Artful contrivance; cunning.
Printing. Illustrative material.


CRAFT
craft ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krft)
n.
Skill in doing or making something, as in the arts; proficiency. See Synonyms at art1.
Skill in evasion or deception; guile.

An occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or skilled artistry.
The membership of such an occupation or trade; guild.
pl. craft A boat, ship, or aircraft.


SCIENCE
sci·ence ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sns)
n.

The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.
An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, in essence, art is the broadest term but craft and science are of course related to the whole and so, Kung Fu is all the above.

[SPJ]

Science is to study and explain everything in an orderly fashion.

What is a throw? 1. to uproot. 2. to throw the opponent off balance.

1. you get close to his center of gravity which is between his 2 feet. or You contact and grab his extended arm at wrist or forearm and pull him off his feet. So you move the opponent upward or Peng 棚. You move the opponent toward his front or Lu 捋.

Craftsmanship is that you are very skillful at whatever you are doing. You know the in's and out's or the trade.

Arts is personal expression of thoughts, feelings, emotions or styles of doing things.

Such as I may contact with Peng; grab and pull with Lu.

I may twirl my forearm to contact 沾粘 and hook 钩 with my thumb and pinkie like a praying mantis or Tang Lang. I may call it Gua 挂 and Cai 採. or block Feng 封.

I may master Tai Ji 13 Shi 勢. Or I may master the strikes, chopping, grappling, and throwing of a Tang Lang using his forelegs.

Science or priniciples and practices are in the Quan Jing or classics.

[ZIM]

I still have to dissent a bit. I'm not at all saying I've got it figured out, but it seems to me that saying its all three just doesn't make sense.

There's this old military adage, it goes: "Amateurs discuss strategy, professionals talk logistics".

And its very striking to me that, even when we're trying to show the "science" behind MAs, we're still showing what amounts to the strategy, never the logistics.
Its like with boxing. The odds makers don't discuss this or that boxer's punch all that much, but they do go into a lot of detail on their records, size, weight, age, etc. Conversely, we discuss techniques all the time as if size, strength, conditioning, etc. don't matter as much.

Of course, thats as much the fault of marketing hype as it is the aim of MAs [ to transcend limits] to begin with.

I guess what I'm saying is, yes MAs *can* be "scientific" but they typically aren't treated that way. And I might imagine that getting too "scientific" with them might kill off what I like about them, though I haven't given it much thought at present.

[An aside: A long time ago I suggested that one could concievably place all permutations of physical fighting into some kind of simulations database and have a computer figure out the most efficient techniques for all circumstances. It would plod through it all and maybe come up with really cool stuff, who knows? Nobody else thought it was a good idea, and I'm still none too sure, either. But thats scientific, surely.]

Somebody might look at the above and get offended by the "amateur" tag. There's nothing at all wrong with it- amateurs do what they love, not what they're paid to do. Isn't that what the practice of MAs is like?

[rogue]

I was thinking science as meaning anatomy and physics.

[red5angel]

I'd let your mom say hi but she's a little busy at the moment. :D


:mad: :mad:

I'm sooooo using my chi to kill you right now.......

[SifuAbel]

mu ga!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Happeh]

art implies personal expression.

When you have practiced your martial arts as a craft long enough, when you have understood they whys of the science of martial arts, then you can make martial arts whatever you want it to be.

Martial "Art" is when everything you have learned and practiced allows you to achieve your goal in anyway possible. You no longer follow the system or the rules.

---

They are also pulling a fast one on you psychologically.

How do you feel when you hear

Craft? ---- Work? Union guys? Tired? Hot?

Science? ----- Work? Thinking? Studying?

Art? ----- Fun. Enjoyable. Relaxing. Intriguing.


How do you want to feel when you practice? Like you are going to work or going to have fun?

Everything in Kung Fu is a lesson to teach you something. Even the name "Martial Arts" is a lesson all in itself.

[Mo Lung]

mu ga!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Hey, quiet everyone. I think SifuAbel's trying to say something...

[ZIM]

Science (http://pr.caltech.edu/media/Press_Releases/PR12660.html)
PASADENA, Calif. - By decoding signals coming from neurons, scientists at the California Institute of Technology have confirmed that an area of the brain known as the ventrolateral prefrontal cortex (vPF) is involved in the planning stages of movement, that instantaneous flicker of time when we contemplate moving a hand or other limb. The work has implications for the development of a neural prosthesis, a brain-machine interface that will give paralyzed people the ability to move and communicate simply by thinking. emphasis mine.

So...take a healthy individual, implant that neural prosthesis, code it up with kung fu, et voila! the Matrix all over again.

Seems a cheat, don't it? But it begins to become possible.

If you could do that tomorrow- become a "master" through a brain implant or something- would it be "art" or just a skill/craft/whatever? Or is the Art the journey, the experience, etc?

Just asking... ;)

[rogue]

:mad: :mad:

I'm sooooo using my chi to kill you right now.......

You don't scare me. I've got chunks of guys like you in my stool!



Quote:
Originally Posted by SifuAbel
mu ga!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey, quiet everyone. I think SifuAbel's trying to say something...

Naw, he gets that way when he eats too much white rice.

[SPJ]

Qi is something you may direct or redirect.

To win is to contact and listen to the opponent's Qi flow and follow.

You win by adding your Qi to that of the opponent. You leverage.

The arts part is difficult to explain.

I think that maybe the ability to vary or change. You do not call music; cooking or dancing just science. There are baking, steaming, broiling, frying or what not. You may vary your ways of cooking, spice, etc.

You may solve the common fighting problems with different solutions.

Fighting is an random event. You win by aquiring the timing and the opportunity. When you and your opponent are positioning and repositioning. You are neutralizing or cancelling each other's moves with countermoves. All of the sudden, here is the opening and then the fight is ended.

The mechanism of throwing may be the same. The ways to deliver may vary. How you approach it may be determined by your predominant favorites of routines of methods. Maybe it is why fighting is called arts as well.

:confused:

[Becca]

You don't scare me. I've got chunks of guys like you in my stool!
Dude, that was a mental image I really did not need while eating. :eek: ;) :D


I guess, to reiterate andclarify, to me the difference between art and craft is the sole. It takes years to achieve both, but when you inject your whole being into what you are doing, you take the craft to the next level. It's the difference between good music and awsome music.

You can listen to most everything on your favorite radio station and enjoy it. But only every so often will a song really move you. Chances are, the song really moved the artist who performed it, too. Then it gets covered by another band who just can't "get it". Many people will still like it, but not those who loved it performed by they other guy. This is the difference beween art and craft. Both groups had to know thier craft to get to were they are, but one had that little something extra... :cool:

This is the diference between art and craft. Science is when you try to quantify the unknown so as to be able to teach it to others.