More Ninja's

[Oso]

"Kasumi Yama Bujinkan Dojo"

"From 900 years of Japan's warring past comes Asheville's only real combat art...
...Budo Taijutsu as taught by Grandmaster Massaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan System."

www.ninjadynasty.com


Anyone have any expereince with this group? They appear to be 'international'.

punch line: yet another martial arts school stupidly attempting to operate in an extremely saturated market....

[Stranger]

Hatsumi is legit.

[Oso]

Well, sure. Wasn't questioning that at all.

So, are you saying that these guys definitely have a direct link to Hatsumi?

[Stranger]

"So, are you saying that these guys definitely have a direct link to Hatsumi?"

--I don't know. If you post on an established Bujinkan message board, they'll be able to tell you if this guy trains regularly with Hatsumi or if he went his own way a long time ago.

[Oso]

right, thanks.

[Akhilleus]

Oso,
I spent about a decade in the Bujinkan, training on and off, if I ever wanted to try to get back in, I would definitely go check out the particular school I was thinking of joining and watch a couple classes...whether or not somebody is affiliated with Hatsumi would mean absolutely nothing to me...they could still either be good or totally suck...in fact, a lot of people will rest on their affiliation with Hatsumi, in place of actual skill...my own ranking with the Bujinkan has long since expired but I could easily get that ranking by sending in a fee...it's just not worth it to me...be careful, the politics in ninjutsu are almost as bad as in kung fu...

and if you are wondering why I spent so much time there...well it wasn't all bad...just like in other arts some things were great others were not so great...and I started when I was so young, that I wasn't even really aware of other martial arts until I had been in there for a long time...

[FatherDog]

http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif

[GeneChing]

Hot ninja action on the Shaolin forum! (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35945&page=1&pp=15) ;)

[norther practitioner]

[QUOTE=Akhilleus]...be careful, the politics in ninjutsu are almost as bad as in kung fu...

[QUOTE]


lol....

I just see a bunch of guys in ninja suits on the rival teachers roof waiting for him to come out.. then saying if he were in a "real" ninjitsu lineage, he'd know that they were there.

[Akhilleus]

NP...funny, but actually that brings up a very good point...in a way it's a good thing ninjutsu practititioners judge eachothers legitimacy based on whether or not they have a certain piece of paper...but look at Stephen Hayes...he actually displayed his ninjutsu skill on the discovery channel...so there are ways of showing you are skilled in ninjutsu w/o sneaking up on somebody and shooting them with a blow gun...

[Oso]

NP...funny, but actually that brings up a very good point...in a way it's a good thing ninjutsu practititioners judge eachothers legitimacy based on whether or not they have a certain piece of paper...but look at Stephen Hayes...he actually displayed his ninjutsu skill on the discovery channel...so there are ways of showing you are skilled in ninjutsu w/o sneaking up on somebody and shooting them with a blow gun...

thanks. I'm not thinking about joining. Just discovered there is a local group (two actually; the other being about 30 miles away) and had to laugh a little at their line "...Asheville's only real combat art"

also, this town of 75k already has 30+ schools in it...the pie just keeps getting cut into smaller pieces....

I talked with my friend who's been teaching here for about 20 years and got the scoop on their demeanor...didn't sound so great.

You hit my point on the head...association with so-and-so, irrelevent of who that so-and-so is doesn't mean that much.

besides, if I went and visited them I'd have to test my ill-gotten-misreperesented ninja skills against theirs :p

[wdl]

Oso,

Where do you train in Asheville?

-Will

[norther practitioner]

NP...so there are ways of showing you are skilled in ninjutsu w/o sneaking up on somebody and shooting them with a blow gun...

I know, I know, but how much cooler would it be if they did.

[Oso]

Oso,

Where do you train in Asheville?

-Will

here:

www.ashevillemartialarts.com

[Oso]

btw, just so i don't get misunderstood, this line was meant to be self-deprecating

punch line: yet another martial arts school stupidly attempting to operate in an extremely saturated market....

[Akhilleus]

"...Asheville's only real combat art"

Dude, I h8 when people advertise/talk like this...it's one thing to say "We're good"...it's another thing to say "Everyone else sux"...it's not necessary to put others down to make yourself look good...and how do we define a "real combat art?"

EDIT: sorry I'm making a big deal outta one little sentence...but as a businessman/martial arts instructor I find such statements inappropriate...even though one such statement isn't really a big deal...

[norther practitioner]

They practice with real darts in their dart guns

[Akhilleus]

Really man I don't know much about dart guns...but I do know one day they were practicing cutting with real swords...they were cutting wet newspaper...instead of tying it up in a tree or something, they were working in partners with one person holding the newspaper out while the other cut it...actually, they never did get to practice because when the instructor went to demonstrate he cut this girl's wrist...the girl had to go to the hospital and DIDN'T sue :eek:

But most of the weapons training I did was really cool, I thought...the swordplay, bo staff, chain, and knife we usually trained with a resisting partner...so I would say my experiences with weapons in ninjutsu were great...then again I'm not the one that had my instructor cut my wrist...

[Stranger]

Akhilleus,

Who was your teacher?

What rank did you hold in the Bujinkan?

[Akhilleus]

Hey Stranger,

My first teacher was Will Maier he was a student of Stephen K. Hayes...I got my black belt in thaijitsu from him and was about halfway to second degree when I quit...

Several years later, I trained under Keith Thompson, a student of Bud Malmstrom for a couple of years...I got like 6th kyu or something I don't really remember...

Both these guys were in MD but Will is long gone now I don't know where he is...

[Stranger]

Akhilleus,

Have you ever trained with Rick Bianchi? I think he was in the suburban Baltimore area.

[Akhilleus]

Rick Bianchi Rick Bianchi...you know...I'm surprised to say that I haven't...or at least I can't remember...but I've been away from ninjutsu for some time now...most of my ninjutsu training took place in Columbia, MD...is he in the Bujinkan?

[paradoxbox]

Cutting something while a student is holding it is absolutely stupid. That he botched the cut is even more stupid, sounds like he's a bad teacher...

I am a student in ninjutsu.. It's a real art. This thread focuses on Bujinkan, some instructors are verry verry good. Some are absolutely horrible. There's not really a lot of regulation of quality within the Bujinkan.

Genbukan is very consistent, as is Jinenkan. If a person has rank there, it means they have the skill to back it up. In Bujinkan it can be any which way.

Taijutsu as taught by Bujinkan tends to focus on a 'flowing' feeling though certain ryu's within the curriculum definately have a huge 'hardness' factor to them.

As far as I know, the blow gun isn't a weapon included in the Booj curriculum ?? It's not taught at most Bujinkan dojo's anyways, maybe in seminars or every once in a while if you're training in Japan.

[Oso]

Thanks for the input. Good post.

Ok, here's more controversy to add to the mix:

I studied what was taught to me as ninjitsu and it supposedly (I say this because I have only the word of my old teacher w/o any sort of documentation or even anecdotal evidence to back it up) came from Mr. Ron Duncan. I trained in it for about 5 years, no rank or anything. I've already been told by one poster here that Mr. Duncan is not regarded that highly.

I know HOW I was taught and I feel that I was taught effectively. I just don't know if what I was taught was legitimately 'ninjitsu'.

Anyone else have an opinion?

[paradoxbox]

Hi, umm I don't know about how effective it is, at least, I have seen a video of Ronald Duncan performing/demonstrating ninjutsu and I was not impressed. Mainly he was dealing with multiple attackers, problem was they were attacking one at a time and waiting for him to finish each technique before coming in for the attack. I remember one in particular where he struck a guy in the face then moved behind him and slowly strangled him with a tessen or some short stick about 1 foot long.

In my mind he would have been roasted if he'd kept doing techniques like that past the 2nd person.

As far as Ronald Duncan's legitimacy he does not teach any real ninjutsu whatsoever, maybe outside of the video demonstration I saw his techniques are good, but I don't know where his ninjutsu system was developed from. It may be a case of taking Kung Fu techniques and adding his own spin to them, I don't know. I think if you want a real guage of effectiveness, try a quick sparring session with someone of equal experience from the Bujinkan or Genbukan. You should be able to see if what you know is working or if it's kind of useless.

[Oso]

If you're talking about the video you can get off his website, I've seen it too.

What is shown in those clips is not what I was taught. {shrug} It actually reminds me more of some arnis bladework vs. the tanto blade work I was taught.

FTR, I did email one of Mr. Duncan's sons via the website in an attempt to verify that my teachers teacher trained with him...no response yet...unless the creaking rafters I'm hearing now are some sort of response ;)

While your critique of his video is in line with mine...it's a critique one can make of most 'demo' videos...so, I definitely take the video with a grain of salt. It's hard to make a demo that will pass muster with other martial artists unless you have an uke who likes getting hit hard.


I don't know. I think if you want a real gauge of effectiveness, try a quick sparring session with someone of equal experience from the Bujinkan or Genbukan. You should be able to see if what you know is working or if it's kind of useless.

truth for any litmus test of fighting ability

Unfortunately, what I've heard about these local guys doesn't really inspire me to seek them out.

good talking to you.

If you don't mind...what is your experience and with whom? you can PM me if you want to.

regards,

Matt

[paradoxbox]

I've got roughly a year in Booj, and more experience than I'd care to admit in street fighting (I think thugs just like to pick on me :P Bad guy to try it on though)

I'm actually in the process of switching to Genbukan for all the things I mentioned above, Bujinkan is just not regulated enough for me to feel like I'm learning the proper techniques. Each teacher can modify the original technique a little bit, and after it's handed down from 2 or 3 different teachers, the technique begins to lose its original form.

For what it's worth, the description of ninjutsu near the top of this page does not even sound like ninjutsu, it sounds almost like a cult. I personally don't know ANYONE from ANY system that would have their student HOLD an object about to be used for 'tameshigiri'.

[Oso]

great, thanks again for the input.

good luck in your switch. I've made two major switches in my kung fu life, it's kinda a *****.

[Akhilleus]

For what it's worth, the description of ninjutsu near the top of this page does not even sound like ninjutsu, it sounds almost like a cult.

Right, it sounds like a cult. But what about it doesn't sound like ninjutsu?

For what it's worth, one year in the "Booj" (is that what they are calling it now? Thank God I left) doesn't exactly make you an authority on ninjutsu, especially when you admit that you are concerned with the quality of what you have been taught...I spent a decade in the BUJINKAN and admit that I don't know jack about ninjutsu because it's hard to find reliable info on it and there are so many aspects to it that it takes a long time to get good at...but then again, I'm not a great street fighter like you...

I guess since I mentioned my instructor's names, and since they make their living teaching ninjutsu, I should point out that niether of the sensei's mentioned were the one involved in my little anecdote...both of those guys showed me a lot of great stuff and were very skilled...

One more thing I saw on bullshido somebody posted a video of Hatsumi Sensei, who is revered as "the most deadly man in the world" by many top Bujinkan members...here is that clip

http://tv.motionmanage.com/net_hp/navi/navi.aspx?site_id=nodasi&channel=0&movie_no=339&link=ok

[Stranger]

One more thing I saw on bullshido somebody posted a video of Hatsumi Sensei, who is revered as "the most deadly man in the world" by many top Bujinkan members...here is that clip


Hatsumi is legit.

[Oso]

funny, that clip was from one of the groups local to me.

[Akhilleus]

Hatsumi is legit.

Cool...I wasn't questioning his legitimacy....

[Stranger]

Cool...I wasn't questioning his legitimacy....


I got that, sorry if it sounded like that was directed at you. It was a knee jerk response initiated by the forum's usual response when any JMA teacher's video is posted.

[cerebus]

Hello Oso. Ronald Duncan's "Ninjitsu" is not from an authentic lineage. It was his own creation. He started out as a young man training in Judo & Jujitsu. He went on to learn hand to hand combat (including knife & garrotte) in the Marine Corps. He has trained in Isshin Ryu with the late Don Nagle and in Jujitsu with Moses Powell (a former top student of Florendo Visitacion). He was part of the whole East Coast Old-Boys network of former military martial artists that began back in the 50s/ 60s and had access to a wide range of martial arts and instructors from which he created his own art.

I've never heard or read of him admitting to having made this art up himself, but then at least I haven't heard of him claiming some mystical, secret master from Japan either (so, unless he starts making such claims, I can at least respect him more than someone like Ashida Kim). His M.A. background is well known to those who were training and teaching on the East Coast back in the 50s/ 60s though, so I doubt he'd try to make up any such stories as he would likely be called on it. So far as I can tell, his stuff is probably fairly effective (especially since it has a high concentration on weapons and a fair amount of unarmed defense against same).

[Akhilleus]

"I got that, sorry if it sounded like that was directed at you. It was a knee jerk response initiated by the forum's usual response when any JMA teacher's video is posted."

No prob dude...my comment that people say he is the most deadliest man on earth was just a little bit of backlash from all the Hatsumi feetkissing I've read on the net...I was actually really interested to see the video because for all I have heard about him I had never seen him perform before...


He started out as a young man training in Judo & Jujitsu. He went on to learn hand to hand combat (including knife & garrotte) in the Marine Corps. He has trained in Isshin Ryu with the late Don Nagle and in Jujitsu with Moses Powell (a former top student of Florendo Visitacion). He was part of the whole East Coast Old-Boys network of former military martial artists that began back in the 50s/ 60s and had access to a wide range of martial arts and instructors from which he created his own art.

Wow...I would rather learn from him than probably 90% of the "legitimate" ninjutsu instructors out there...but if he markets himself as teaching authentic "ninjutsu" I would be shocked...I mean, his real credentials are a lot more impressive than the ones he has allegedly falsified...

[cerebus]

Well, like I said, I don't know if Duncan has "falsified" anything. He just claims to teach "Ninjitsu". Maybe he claims more than I'm aware of, I haven't had the chance to speak with him or question him. I've just never read or heard of him claiming any Japanese lineage for what he teaches, and his actual training background is fairly well-known.

[Akhilleus]

That's cool...the history of ninjutsu seems to be shrouded in mystery and controversy, so I'm not about to question somebody that does seem to have some real hardcore training...

When I said that he allegedly falsified his credentials, I was referring to Streetfighter Paradoxbox's statement that:


As far as Ronald Duncan's legitimacy he does not teach any real ninjutsu whatsoever

[Stranger]

I believe that Ronald Duncan has claimed Koga Ryu lineage. This claim, by my understanding, is impossible.

[cerebus]

Yes, he has referred to his art as "Koga Ryu", but I've never heard him claim a lineage to Japan (though, yeah, claiming to be "Koga Ryu" is deceptive after all). It's been years since I've even thought about the whole twisted ball of yarn so I'd kind of forgotten about that. :p

[Oso]

cerebus, thanks.

I'll definitely stand by my opinion that the body of information I learned that was attributed to Mr. Duncan is effective.

And some of it is so ingrained that i have a hard time shaking it...the stepping methods for evasive fighting in particular...in favor of other things.

We trained it as 'ninjitsu' in that we spent a lot of time outdoors in 2-4 man teams trying to 'kill' each other with it. Fun times. :)

[Stranger]

Rick Bianchi Rick Bianchi...you know...I'm surprised to say that I haven't...or at least I can't remember...but I've been away from ninjutsu for some time now...most of my ninjutsu training took place in Columbia, MD...is he in the Bujinkan?


Sorry, just saw this question. He was in the Bujinkan @1989 (5th dan) and may still be. I was just wondering how interconnected the Bujinkan community in MD was back then?

[Akhilleus]

Hmm...I don't really remember their being a lot of people from other schools in the area coming in to train with us or anything...a lot of the people from my first school remain pretty close but I think that's cause hey all started at the same school...back in the 80s I didn't see a lot of interconnection...

[red5angel]

that clip of Hatsumi is interesting. I saw some stuff I really liked and looked good, some other stuff - possibly "qi" related that looked silly.
One complaint I have about the guys who practice these arts is those dammed tabi boots. They have almost the same affect on me as those cheesy headbands some fukkers wear.

[Oso]

that clip of Hatsumi is interesting. I saw some stuff I really liked and looked good, some other stuff - possibly "qi" related that looked silly.
One complaint I have about the guys who practice these arts is those dammed tabi boots. They have almost the same affect on me as those cheesy headbands some fukkers wear.

yea, I hear you, kinda silly looking but they do have some uses...especially if you happen to have prehensile toes like I do.

however, in most of the training we did outdoors the Hi-Tec Magnum boot was my choice of footwear.

FWIW, the way Hatsumi rolls is exactly the way we were taught to roll. Including the back rolls a couple of the guys did.

'qi' in ninjitsu: again, FWIW, the one chi kung type thing I was taught is still my favorite to do.

[Blacktiger]

We have some Bujinkan guys who rent some space from our kung fu school once a week so some of the students who live in a different part of town can get a few more classes in, as their HQ is a little out of town.
These guys dont ever where the Tabi boots and what I have seen of there training is full on, its great. Its just all reality based stuff and its intense, its a war art remember so everything is designed to shut you down for good from the get go. From what I have seen from these guys if your going to train in this art you better get ready fror some injuries on an ongoing basis. As they dont really execute there techniques at 50%, they train it flat out so you get the feel of it.
The teacher has regular contact with Hatsumi and teaches some great stuff.

We finish our kung fu lesson and then all these guys walk in with the black outfits on, they look nasty just dressed in black :)
They also do alot of chi kung work although they dont like to openly preach about it.
One of the guys was telling us that with the videos that they put out they intentionally leave out moves and techniques so as they dont all give it away to any joe on the street. The politics and how they do things are very funny!
:)

[Finny]

Hatsumi is legit.

In the interests of a balanced discussion, it should be noted that the majority of traditional martial artists in Japan do NOT regard Mr Hatsumi as 'legit'.

There are two main koryu (old school) organisations in Japan, the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai, and the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. Apparently Mr. Hatsumi tried to join the Kobudo Shinkokai some decades ago. When someone tries to join either organisation, the school is entering the organisation as a whole - therefore, densho must be provided to a panel of experts and the schools existance must be verified (as a general rule) to prior to the Meiji restoration in 1868.

Ellis Amdur had this to say on the subject:

"Dr. Hatsumi was asked many years ago to provide documentation of some of his lineage for admittance to the Kobudo Shinkokai, perhaps the most reliable of the major organisations of traditional Japanese martial arts, and according to Donn Draeger, in a conversation to me, he was not able to provide documentation which proved his lineage to their satisfaction. Thus, there are uncertain areas in Dr Hatsumi's lineage."

I know I'm going to cop a whole heap of abuse from interested people here (ie. 'ninjutsu' students), so I will point out the following - This is all second hand information I'm presenting here so that any newbs will have a balanced set of info regarding 'ninjutsu' - rather than a group of students saying "it's legit".

I personally don't care either way - if you enjoy what you're doing, keep doing it and ignore me - I've also heard that Bujinkan training can be painful and effective - the lineage of an art has no impact on it's usefullness.

The main point of my post is to point out that, among most traditional martial artists in Japan, Mr. Hatsumi is considered a bit of a joke - he's the only guy in Japan to claim to teach 'ninjutsu' as an isolated art, although he also teaches a couple of legitimate koryu (Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu), these are not 'ninjutsu' arts.

[Stranger]

Finny,

We'll never know because we weren't there. I'm not going to champion the Bujinkan's stance on the quote you posted, but I have read a different story coming from their camp. As the norm, every story has more than one side.

I think it is interesting to question his lineage, when nobody was questioning Takamatsu's credentials back in the day and he transferred authority to Hatsumi before he died.

Hatsumi was also a student of Yumio Nawa, another recongized master of ninjutsu outside of Takamatsu's lineage.

In the end, whatever Hatsumi is teaching has merit IMHO. His skills are legit even if his history is ever proven wrong. There are a lot of highly respected ma styles that have very colorful histories loaded with fanciful facts that are impossible to confirm.

Reminds me of a quote: "This is New Orleans, the Big Easy, the only reason you know who yo daddy is, is because yo mammy says so."

[joedoe]

I find it interesting that eventually everyone gets called a fake. Not so long ago Hatsumi was considered the only true surviving Ninja, now he is considered a fake.

Not a rebuke, or an attack, just an observation. I wonder how long it will be before the GM of the art I study gets called a fake ;)

[Akhilleus]

joedoe...good point...I guess you have to really find out for yourself if someone is "legit" or not...and by "legit" I don't mean they have any sort of lineage...I just mean that they can help you get to where you want to be...of course, if may be important to a person that there teacher can prove their legitimacy so that they know they belong to a rich heritage of an ancient martial art...which is fine...

[Blacktiger]

Thats interesting.

Why then if he is not legit did he receive Japans highest honour, I dont know what its called but its like a national lving treasure sort of award.....If the linage was not up to scratch then there is no way they would award something like this to him.
As for Hatsumi's linage right before Takamatsu Sensei died he passed direct inheritance of the nine warrior traditions to Hatsumi. Masaaki Hatsumi became: 34th. Soke of Togakure ryu Ninpo 28th. Soke of Gyokko ryu Koshijutsu 28th. Soke of Kukishinden ryu Happo Hiken 26th. Soke of Shinden Fudo ryu Dakentaijutsu 21st. Soke of Gyokushin ryu Ninpo 18th. Soke of Koto ryu Koppojutsu 17th. Soke of Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu 15th. Soke of Gikan ryu Koppojutsu 14th. Soke of Kumogakure ryu Ninpo.
As for teaching as an isolated art he does not cliam just to teach ninjutsu. I dont study the art but I know from talking to the instructor and having a bit of contact with them at out school that its broken up into many arts. When Hatsumi first began teaching he didnt even call it ninjutsu.

As for being respected by martial artists in Japan or the whole world for that matter and not just his Bujinkan students..... I dont think you would find too many people who would regard him as a joke. I dont care either way but I think that is just sraight out incorrect that people in Japan think he is a joke, were does that information come from. :confused:

[joedoe]

joedoe...good point...I guess you have to really find out for yourself if someone is "legit" or not...and by "legit" I don't mean they have any sort of lineage...I just mean that they can help you get to where you want to be...of course, if may be important to a person that there teacher can prove their legitimacy so that they know they belong to a rich heritage of an ancient martial art...which is fine...

I guess my point is that we as a community seem to have a habit of calling people fakes. Ultimately it boils down to a he-said-she-said argument in the end. So why do we bother?

[Akhilleus]

So why do we bother?

Good question...Maybe it's b/c we want to be "special" or "unique" by belonging to an elite club...by showing that someone else is BS, we elevate ourselves...we are special because we are legit...I don't know man...I've talked trash about people before, I've gotten involved in politics...my number one goal in martial arts is to avoid doing these two things again...

[Blacktiger]

Word :D

I know "The Hulkster" is a fake :)

[joedoe]

Good question...Maybe it's b/c we want to be "special" or "unique" by belonging to an elite club...by showing that someone else is BS, we elevate ourselves...we are special because we are legit...I don't know man...I've talked trash about people before, I've gotten involved in politics...my number one goal in martial arts is to avoid doing these two things again...

Don't get me wrong - I despise dishonesty as much as the next person. When someone claims that they are something that they are not, that is not acceptable. However, we sit here and feel that we have the right to judge someone as legit or fake, and ultimately it reduces down to nothing more than he-said-she-said. If someone is obviously being dishonest then fine, make the facts known. But if it is a case of hearsay or speculation, then there is little value in making such claims.

[neit]

i hoped the page would have some pics of them attempting to pose with weapons. :(