wing chun history

[PQS]

I know that according to legend the pole was added to the system at the the time of the Red Junk Opera followers, but when were the Knives and Dummy added? or were they always part of the system?
Thanks for any answers
Peter

[Gangsterfist]

from my understanding the knives came from a butcher, and some of the techniques were adpoted from butchering animals. The dummy has been around and is in a lot of systems. It was probably adopted near the begining is my assumption.

Thats about all i know, not sure exactly when and whom it was adopted from, but i have been told it came from how they butcher animals.

[sihing]

To know exactly how and when the swords and dummy were brought into the system will be hard to determine, but I don't believe the sword movements/techniques & concepts came from how they butchered animals. The monks had weapons and the butterfly swords where one of them and a very practical one at that. Easily hidden and to learn, it would be a obvious choice to include in a "secret system". The dummies as Gangsterfist said have been around along time and I'm sure a training development system was devised at the beginning. As with anything that has been around for awhile, the lineage holders of each generation have certainly improved upon the art as they passed it on to the next.

James

[OdderMensch]

is that the system began with the knives, and the hand work was adopted from them.

[Gangsterfist]

You know, I could be remembering it wrong. Perhaps it was adopted along the way (the knives that is) but then changed by a butcher or perhaps a butcher influenced some of the techniques. I have heard this from people, but I can't quite remember exactly which it was now. I should have written it down right afterwards, but oh well.

[sihing]

I don't ever remember hearing about the butcher thing, not to say that it isn't true Gangsterfist, just never heard of that one before. I believe the knives are patterned after the hands. When you learn with the empty hands, picking up the knives is easier, as all you have to do is get used to holding the weapon in your hands and manipulating them around as the form requires (my BGD form is based on the TWC form, and from what I have seen of the other BGD lineages it is different).

James

[Gangsterfist]

James,

I'll send you a PM with more info.

[DRleungjan]

Hi there,

The only butcher I remember reading about in the Wing Chun histories is that of butcher Gwai (or is it Kwai?) near Leung Jan's pharmacy. Other than that, some the legend's state of Jee Seem hiding as a cook among the Hung Suen. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Julio

[martyg]

To know exactly how and when the swords and dummy were brought into the system will be hard to determine, but I don't believe the sword movements/techniques & concepts came from how they butchered animals. The monks had weapons and the butterfly swords where one of them and a very practical one at that.
James

I find that highly inplausible considering the buddhist precepts of not killing, eating meat, etc. It would be highly unlikely that they had these knives, simply because of the nature of them. The knives (both the heavier head optimized for chopping, and the the tapered head optimized for stabbing) were common among the coastal provinces and used by people in the sea related work fields (mariners), militia, etc. because of this. Many things are attributed to "monks" such as this that are usually based off of stories and old tales. Look at the idea of "drunken" shaolin forms for example. The weapons the monks had were generally not bladed, other than those possibly used for tilling. Simple things used for every day use, for a simple people.

Most likely the knives have more of a secret society and weng chun connection than anything.

[Gangsterfist]

martyg-

Good point. Not all practitioners were buddhist though, some were probably taoist, and so on and so forth. The knives do remind me of butchering knives. I was told some of the techniques were adopted from a butcher. I don't know about that secret society thing. I try to stay away from stuff like that, it has a dogmatic cultist ring to it. However, I do not deny the fact that they existed. Its probably true to some extent, but since wing chun's history is a mess its hard to tell.

[martyg]

martyg-

Good point. Not all practitioners were buddhist though, some were probably taoist, and so on and so forth.


Heya, I wasn't refering to practitioners though. I'm sure practitioners of the art have been everything under the sun. ;) My comments were in regards to "shaolin monks" being the origin of the knives in the system.

[sihing]

Well since HFY Wing Chun has a connection to both Shaolin and Secret Societies, here's what they have to say, http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/butterflyknives.php .

James

[Gangsterfist]

martyq-

I was agreeing with you, and since its the practitioners of the art who pass it down to others and add little bits here and there is what I was getting at.

:)

[t_niehoff]

The problem with so many WCK "history" questions is that they just can't be answered because we don't know. And while folks can offer conjecture and speculation (most often to suit our own agendas), the bottom line is that for anything that happened past Leung Jan's era (and Fok Bo Cheung) we just don't know. We have oral traditions (stories, legends) but no hard, provable facts. We can't prove WCK even existed past Leung Jan and Fok Bo Cheun (although since both had similar methods and claimed to have been both taught by Wong Wah Bo, that seems likely the case - but it can't be proven). We can't even prove WCK was on the Red Boats.

So the answer to the original question is oral traditions tell us different things but we just don't know and will more than likely never know.

[Hendrik]

Most likely the knives have more of a secret society and weng chun connection than anything.


1. how can be a buddhist monk become a cook who cook meat?

2, the knive imhho is also from white crane of fujian.

Looking at the small knives society of shang hai and canton connection in Lee man-mau/taiping period. the knife is a common shot range weapon at that time. imhhho

[Gangsterfist]

Hendrik I agree with you. The knife is definately an urban weapon, and easily concealable. Someone could stroll through the city with the butterfly knives under their shirt.

[t_niehoff]

Hendrik asks:

1. how can be a buddhist monk become a cook who cook meat?

**He can stop being a monk. ;) What I think is more interesting than these stories themselves is why folks attach such importance to them.

[duende]

So this Buddist monk goes into Burger King, and walks up to the counter to order a burger.

The attendant asks him how he wants his burger??

The monk replies... "one with everything".

;)

[anerlich]

The attendant gives him the burger.

"Where's my change?" says the monk.

"Change must come from within," says the attendant, and laughs at him.


Someone could stroll through the city with the butterfly knives under their shirt.

What sort of shirt are you wearing? I can "easily conceal" a combat folder under my shirt, but not two butterfly swords.

[Gangsterfist]

across the back diagnoly, crocidile dundee style, you should know that anerlich ;)