5 Tigers All Kung Fu Championship 2005 [Archive]

tailik

03-21-2005, 12:18 PM

Dear Masters, Sifus, Coaches, Students, and Spectators

I would like to cordially invite you to our 2nd Annual Jow Ga 5 Tigers All Kung Fu Championship which will be held on June 4th, 2005 at Howard Community College Columbia MD. This is a traditional kung fu tournament for ALL STYLES of kung fu. Hosting this event is our way of contributing to the promotion of traditional kung fu tournaments in the United States. We hope that you will join us at this event and help promote traditional kung fu tournaments for our students and future generations. Last years tournament was featured in Martial Hero Magazine, Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine, and Action Magazine.

We are introducing several new and exciting divisions to this year’s competition in an effort to showcase the uniqueness of Chinese Martial Arts. The new divisions are as follows:

8 ft. LONG POLE DIVISION
Ng Long Bot Gwa Gwan, Luk Dim Bun Gwan, Bot Gwa Gwan, etc.
5th Son 8 Triagram Staff, 6 Half Point Staff, 8 Triagram Staffs.

Here we would like to showcase a weapon and skill seldom seen in today’s tournaments with a division where all of its’ principals can be appreciated and promoted. Advanced only this year.

CHI SAO – LEI TAI - Here we are taking Chi Sao to another level literally! Competitors in this division will really test their skill while performing Chi Sao on top of the table or Lei Tai.

LANCE WEAPON DIVISION
Kwan Do, Tiger Fork, Horse Cutting Lance, Monk Spade, Wolf Teeth Cudgel, Long Axe, Big Tridents, etc. - Here we would like to showcase the heavy Lance and the unique power, strength, endurance, and skill necessary to perform these heavier weapons in a division where they can be appreciated. Advanced only this year.

SPECIAL WEAPONS DIVISION
Chop Stick & Bowl, Fan, Cane, Cymbals, Bench, Rake, Hoe, Rings, Shovel, Pipe, etc.

Here we would like to bring out and showcase those seldom seen personal weapons of kung fu. Here is a division that will highlight the uniqueness and versatility of weapons in Chinese Martial Arts. Again offering a specific division where these types of weapons can compete and be appreciated. Advanced only this year.

FLEXIBLE WEAPONS – Rope Dart, Three & Two Sectionals, Steel Whips, etc.

MUK YAN JONG DIVISION – WOODEN DUMMY
This division is offered to highlight the skills of the Wing Chun Wooden Dummy Form.

FORMS APPLICATION DIVISION
Here we would like to promote the kung fu techniques and applications in forms. This will be a two-man competition. Competitors will compete with a sequence from their styles empty hand form and its’ applications. This will certainly be a challenging division, but with your support we hope to encourage the use and practice of kung fu techniques instead of brawling. Our ultimate goal is that with the promotion of this division we may see more kung fu techniques transfer into the Continuous Sparring matches. We are hopeful that after students witness this division, they will have a better appreciation for the long hours of form practice. Please visit the rules section of the tournament website and view our simple, fair, and straightforward rules for this division.

Honorary Chairman: Grand Master Chan Man Cheung, Hong Kong

Honorary Advisors:

Jow Biu Chinese Boxing Association, Hong, Kong

Chung Oi Jow Biu Martial Arts Sports Association, Hong Kong

Jow Tin Chinese Martial Arts Association, Hong Kong

Master Hoy K. Lee, USA

Master Deric Mims, USA

Masters Hon Lee, USA

Master Michael Ek Eng Guan, Singapore

Master Frank Greinacher, Germany

Master Reza Momenan, USA

Master Troyon Williams, USA

Master Thomas Tang, USA

Master Charles Middleton, USA

Tournament Website: http://www.jowtigers.com/tournament/index.html

Or www.jowtigers.com

If you have any questions please contact Sifu Johnson via email: jowga1@aol.com or telephone (410) 992-6673.

Best regards,

Sifu Derek Johnson “Cheung Tai Lik” - Tournament Director

Liokault

03-21-2005, 03:54 PM

"Here we would like to promote the kung fu techniques and applications in forms. This will be a two-man competition. Competitors will compete with a sequence from their styles empty hand form and its’ applications. This will certainly be a challenging division, but with your support we hope to encourage the use and practice of kung fu techniques instead of brawling. Our ultimate goal is that with the promotion of this division we may see more kung fu techniques transfer into the Continuous Sparring matches. We are hopeful that after students witness this division, they will have a better appreciation for the long hours of form practice. Please visit the rules section of the tournament website and view our simple, fair, and straightforward rules for this division. "

OMG

Am I reading this right? You think that by making people do short sections from forms, against another guy (?), they will transpher this into sparring?

You and your wish to promote "a better appreciation for the long hours of form practice" are crap!

A better way would be to put gloves on both guys, send them in to kill each other, and award the contest to the guy who strikes the most 'tiger' stances!!

tailik

03-21-2005, 07:30 PM

LioKault

i am not going to get involved in one of these silly little online fights. i don't practice keyboard kung fu and i am not a keyboard tiger. obviously you intended to disrespect me with your punkish comment while you hide behind your computer.

my name is Derek Johnson. my address and telephone number are in my previous post, so if you would like to discuss this topic in person, you know where to find me. So, anything else you have to say online will only make you look more like the little p*nk you are. i think you should respect the forum rules and its' members by disrespecting a person to his face or shut up!

you got the wrong one you clown.

i would like to apologize to anyone else reading this topic. This is my only response to LioKault because i have already wasted enough time.

Have a nice day Pu*K
Derek Johnson :rolleyes:

SaMantis

03-21-2005, 07:33 PM

You are your wish to promote "a better appreciation for the long hours of form practice" are crap!

Well gee liokault, who appointed you grand marshal of Poop On Your Parade Day?

Since you have such a low opinion of what sounds like an interesting experiment, why not enter and show everybody what a great little expert you are?

tailik, thanks for the heads-up on this tournament. It sounds very interesting (esp. the long pole and special weapons division, it's worth going just to see these).

Mutant

03-21-2005, 07:47 PM

CHI SAO – LEI TAI - Here we are taking Chi Sao to another level literally! Competitors in this division will really test their skill while performing Chi Sao on top of the table or Lei Tai.

Is this full contact fighting, or just 'chi sao on a lei tai'?
Full contact chi sao with takedowns wearing MMA style gloves would make it interesting. Otherwise, why bother, it would just be the same old.... just on a platform.

Akhilleus

03-21-2005, 08:44 PM

Wow that sounds great...I will bring a team...now how big that team will be I cannot guarantee, but I'll start telling everybody at my school(s)...

Liokault

03-21-2005, 08:50 PM

i am not going to get involved in one of these silly little online fights. i don't practice keyboard kung fu and i am not a keyboard tiger. obviously you intended to disrespect me with your punkish comment while you hide behind your computer.

my name is Derek Johnson. my address and telephone number are in my previous post, so if you would like to discuss this topic in person, you know where to find me. So, anything else you have to say online will only make you look more like the little p*nk you are. i think you should respect the forum rules and its' members by disrespecting a person to his face or shut up!

you got the wrong one you clown.

If you advertise an event, don't do it on a forum that lets others express there view, especially if your weak enough to be offended by others views.

I'm not about to phone you, as I'm the UK.....by all means e-mail me for my contact details.

.................................................. .................................................. ..............................

Ok lets look at this:

you said:

Competitors will compete with a sequence from their styles empty hand form and its’ applications. This will certainly be a challenging division, but with your support we hope to encourage the use and practice of kung fu techniques instead of brawling.

This is going in the wrong direction. If kung fu is degrading into brawling, the answer is not to ban the brawling and promote the failing kung fu!!!

You also said:

Our ultimate goal is that with the promotion of this division we may see more kung fu techniques transfer into the Continuous Sparring matches.

So by doing preset moves within a very tight rule set, your going to put more "kung fu techniques" into continuous sparring?

Hmmmm, yes, if you ban brawling, aggression and competitiveness your plan may just see recognisable kung fu in sparring....except it wont be sparring now will it?

You also said:

We are hopeful that after students witness this division, they will have a better appreciation for the long hours of form practice.

This bit is the real crap on the cake for me!!

What your saying here is that guys who have been doing forms as the main part of their training, but have no real fighting skill, can take heart by watching guys move through neutered two person patterns that you will call sparring.

What you should be doing is putting gloves on them, pushing them into the ring and beat them down. This will show that, while forms have there place, if you want to fight you need to train in fighting, not in forms.

SaMantis

Well gee liokault, who appointed you grand marshal of Poop On Your Parade Day?

Its a forum. I do not need to be appointed anything before I post my view here.

tailik

03-21-2005, 10:57 PM

Mutant - thanks for your comment. it is definitely something to consider. positive comments and/or feedback are welcomed and that is one reason the new tournament events were listed.

A difference of opinion doesn't require or permit disrespect on topics and discussions. i don't think any decent person should accept or expect disrespect as a requirement when they respectfully make a post on forums or send out invitations. When we invite guest to my home for dinner,i don't think the person being invited has the right to disrespect me or my family because they don't like a particular dish. My Sifu and parents taught me respect. ;) where i come from we take disrespect seriously because someone can get seriously hurt if they don't. you expect children to be disrespectful without provocation, not mature men or kung fu people.

SaMantis - thanks for your support. i will be up in the boston area next month

Akhilleus - Wow thanks for coming out. i see your a fellow Marylander. Hopefully we can do this every year and keep things moving in our area.

For those who don't know me, we decided to have this tournament so that we could contribute to the promotion of traditional kung fu for our ancestors, students, and future generations. There has been a decline in tournaments and competition in our region, so we decided to stick our necks out and contribute since we as a kung fu community are only hurting ourselves with silly fighting and politics.

In every division, we have had the honor to have sifus and students from around the world contribute ideas and suggestions in order to create divisions and rules which may help the development of this tournament in its' second year. somethings are definitely experimental, but most good things were discovered by experiments. Fortunately 99% of the people are picking up what i am putting down. :)

Take the Forms Application Division. why am i getting such a great response through emails? Maybe they smell what i'm cooking? :D i guess some people are missing the point?

as i mentioned before my name is Derek Johnson and everybody who loves and respects kung fu are invited and welcomed at our new tournament. we had alot of fun last year.

i have some friends from the UK coming too ;)

Stay safe and take care
Derek Johnson
www.jowtigers.com

Brad

03-22-2005, 08:04 AM

About the applications division...

Is this two man sets or is it demonstrate a single person set and then show people a few application? What's the judging criterea for this, and can you better explain how it will help people transfer kungfu directly to the sparring? Honestly, from the way I'm reading it, it doesn't sound any different than how most all non-fighting schools train allready. Can you clarify the reasoning and how the division will be run?

Brad

03-22-2005, 08:08 AM

Also Chi Sao on a table... doesn't that add unnecesary danger and take away from the skills of the competitors? It's cool in a Prodigal Son flashback kind of way, but someone slipping on the table and getting injured by hitting the edge is kind of a crappy way to lose (lots of cheap injuries in Letai san shou too).

Ray Pina

03-22-2005, 09:18 AM

One question: Will there be full contact continous fighting?

If so, I will go and can probbaly bring a dozen folks with me. But please, don't tell me yes, have m drive there, pay, sit around through forms all day and then tell me know hitting the face, no hitting the head, or no this or that.

No groin strikes. Even no throwing if these kung fu guys don't want to get dirty, but is this going to be worth the time?

Also, chi sauing on the table, in my opinion, does nothing but enforce bad habits. Mobility is most important. I got disqualified from the Fe Hung for face contact but when you put me on a table with a guy who has 50 lbs on me, what do you want me to do? He wins the paticake game. And I can't go anywhere, so you have to hit the guy.

I'll chi sau also if there is full contact allowed. And again, I can bring a dozen folks who would do that to.

It's just that I swore off these type of things, but a chance to play is a chance to play but full contact sparring is mandatory minimum.

Please consider it. If the idea of full contact sparring is too much to consider, perhaps other things need to be taken into consideration, such as: is this a martial arts tournament or a gymnastics exhibition.

Sorry for all this pre-emptive hostility. Just got a flood of bad memories rushing back to me and I started my day at 6:00 a.m. with my sewage exploding through my shower drain and here it is mid-day, and looks like moe $hit is on the way.

tailik

03-22-2005, 09:59 AM

Hey Brad this is a partner division.

please go to the rules section at www.jowtigers.com/tournament/ this will hopefully answer some of your questions pertaining to the rules and judging criteria.

The idea for this division is quite simple. If you practice kung fu forms, which many people do, hopefully you understand the applications and train to use them. I suspect this is not the case in many schools. The opinion of many instructors is that students are spending a lot of time practicing forms without gaining the rich knowledge. Take a style like Hung Ga and one of its' forms. With a qualified instructor, a student can learn and unlock many valuable aspects of fighting from the Hung Ga form. When i use the term qualified instructor, i am referring to someone who understands real fighting.

It goes without saying that you must also stand in front of another man or opponent and fight/spar to complete the learning "cycle of fighting". The so called "non-fighting" schools may not fight because they don't have or know how to apply the techniques in their forms. Anytime we talk about application or forms you always have those people who always bring up "getting in the ring", "putting on gloves", and other phrases pertaining to fighting or testing skills are just preaching to the choir. what are these guys Rocket Scientist? This discussion and division is simply just a step to prepare people to get in the ring. those guys who have been successful at winning fights mainly due to strength and heart will have a problem when they face someone with greater strenght, heart, and TECHNIQUE. because of my traditional training, i refer to forms training as technique training and not just trying to look pretty.

When you teach a student how to fight do you just put gloves on him and say fight or do you teach him techniques and then put him in the ring to sharpen his skills? i should also mention that i come from a school in which fighting was mandatory and have much experience fighting from the streets of Wash. D.C. to Europe, so i am not speaking from the position of someone who only does forms.

A person who only practices form without fighting is limited.
A person who only fights without utilizing techniques is limited.
one reason forms were created was to pass on techniques for fighting ;) .

How this can transfer into sparring divisions:
My optimistic personality believes that when students come to tournaments and see that some of the forms they practice have some pretty good techniques for fighting, maybe they will take a closer look at the arsenal of techinques right in front of them, maybe they will have a desire to join the sparring divsions and maybe they will truly demonstrate the meaing of kung fu. The truth is that many people don't spar/fight because they don't know what to do.

maybe you disagree that kung fu forms have techniques which are valuable for fighting, but many people do think that forms have usable techniques. this division only demonstrates a part of the "learning cycle of fighting", which consist of learning techinques and then putting them to the test in front of an opponent. this division is for people who understand the traditional purpose of forms practice. We have to understand that during the time and atmosphere that these forms were created, the people creating these forms had to fight and back it up in life and death situations and didn't settle disputes with sparring. some of their real experiences were passed on through these forms.

We can discuss what makes a good fighter until the end of time. Lets be real, without real combat outside the ring or tournament, all the divisions in tournaments are subjective and theory. we just do our best to prepare ourselves for fighting without killing ourselves by practicing various elements of fighting.

Do you think that people who fight in tournaments will actually fight the same way they do in the ring in a real fight? The timing and intent is much different in a real fight. in the ring you get maybe a swelling, broken nose, brusie, etc withing maybe 3 rounds. in a real fight you can get your head split open within 2 seconds and lets see where a fighters heart is now.

those who think brawling is cool should not waste their time with forms/techniques. brawling is a subjective word also. my definition of brawling is mindless fighting without technique, soley dependent on heart, strength, and luck!
In a real fight your heart can be your friend or foe depending on how you use it.

When it comes to fighting with skill, mind, heart, strength, courage, and technique, you can call it what you want but it's definitely not brawling.

in short, this division is a promotional idea to simply demonstrate and preserve the wealth of knowledge within forms. The reason we chose to have competitors use techniques from their styles forms was for accountability and to have some kung fu people take a second look at what is available to them.

The chi sao table question is quick:
its only adults, not too high, there are are spotters, and it will enhane the testing of skills required in chi sao. the edge of the table is padded and rounded i with not only spotters, but also matts on the floor.

thanks for taking the time to read all this stuff Brad. i enjoyed answering your question and if you have any other questions or suggestions please post them. you are allowing me to clarify the reason we incorporated certain divisions.

Finally, i like to think of forms application division as the missing piece of the learning cycle during tournaments. We perform forms at tournaments, why? We have a fighting division, but then we have rules, which restrict us, and call ourselves fighters, why?

Take care
Derek :)

brothernumber9

03-22-2005, 10:02 AM

"Please consider it. If the idea of full contact sparring is too much to consider, perhaps other things need to be taken into consideration, such as: is this a martial arts tournament or a gymnastics exhibition."

Why does it have to be full contact or nothing at all? How many kung fu tournaments have you ever been to where only full contact is offered and nothing else outside of full contact? There will be continuous sparring divisions. They are not full contact but they ain't no sippin tea neither. For legit full contact there is a big liability and insurance issue as well as in some events and states, sanctioning by the state athletic commission that make it less than worth while for most to promote such.

The venue has been laid out, if one doesn't like it, they can promote their own in the manner they think it should be done. The tournament was a success last year and likely everyone and more will return this year.

As far as chi sau on a lei tai. A lei tai is arguably bigger than the square normally provided for chi sau divisions, mobility is not an issue. The risks are laid out in front of the competetors, those that enter do so knowingly. There may probably be even more than just the lei tai chi sau division for those that want it. Sifu Johnson is not impossible to get a hold of for such suggestions.

tailik

03-22-2005, 10:26 AM

Ray sorry about your sewage man!

There is NO Full Contact sparring this year. The continuous sparring division does allow contact to the headgear, but not the face. We are considering it for next years tournament when we move to a larger gym so thanks for the input. We are a 2nd year tournament so we plan to build up to that level. i can appreciate your comments because my dream is to promote Full Contact tournaments. Actually i would like to be the Don King of Full Contact Tournaments without the hair.

The chi Sao table idea that was actually put to us by a significant number of Chi Sao/Wing Chun Sifus. last year the chi sao division on the floor was small, but since we added the table as requested, we have already gotten confirmations from competitors which far exceed last year chi sao division. we aim to please although we can't please everybody.

brother number 9 has some pretty good points also.

Ray the groin strike thing brother , well some of the guys may have wives or girlfriends (maybe both) they have to take care of and we don't want to risk having someone who won't be able to take care of business and make babies after their match ;)

i hope you will make it Ray and we will consider your idea for next year when i can maybe afford the insurance for full contact.

Derek

Akhilleus

03-22-2005, 11:57 AM

Sifu Johnson,

Yeah I'm only about 30 min. away from Howard Community College, so it works out great for me and my classmates/students...especially now that ying yang is gone...

On the whole continuous sparring issue...

90% of the continuous sparring I have seen is crap...I'm not talking about the skill level, I'm talking about how the rules were followed...you have two guys pounding on eachother and breaking every rule in the book, and usually the one that breaks the rules more, wins...any step to change continuous, such as Sifu Johnson's new division, is a step in the right direction...look at ying yang a couple years ago, when a fight broke out in the continuous division...if those guys wanted to do throws, there is something called "San Shou"...if they wanted to keep fighting on the ground, they should have done MMA...

Continuous is not full contact, nor should it be...they both have their place...let's make sure we keep them separate, so you don't have some weekend warrior get in there thinking, "Now I can test my skills in a safe and fun atmosphere!" and some kid across the ring who should be doing full-contact but doesn't have the balls come in and knock out this poor guy...

OK end of rant...the tournament sounds great, I was just venting b/c of some bad experiences I've had at tournaments in the past...

I haven't met Sifu Johnson or been to his tournament yet, but from the material I have read about his tournament, I feel confident that his ideas could bring about a much needed change in the ugly world of "continuous". I'm looking forward to it...I'm considering doing continuous...I'll definitely do full-contact when they get that...

and if you guys don't like the new divisions...well let's wait and see what the results are before we bash it...ok?

EDIT: Oh, and I've done Muay Thai, San Shou, Kuoshu, MMA, Kickboxing, Continuous, etc....Continuous was probably one of the most brutal because with the others I got in there with a clear expectation that dude would be trying to take my head off...with continuous I didn't realize that until I got rocked...

Again, I want to emphasize that I am bashing continuous at other tournaments...not the 5 Tigers one...I'm trying to show that continuous pretty much sucks so it's great that this tournament is actually taking steps to correct that problem...

tailik

03-22-2005, 12:29 PM

hello everyone here are some highlights from last year's tournament, which was our first. http://www.jowtigers.com/gallery.html

take care
Derek

Ray Pina

03-22-2005, 12:33 PM

Thanks for the reply.

I was in a rush running out the door to grab lunch and think I was misunderstood.... I was assuming no groing strikes (thank God) and no throws. No groin strike is universal. I wil never poke the eye or strike the ball unless attacked and need to in order to protect myself.

Anyway, best of luck with your tournament and if the rules change next year I will eneter.

Brothernumber9, I stay away from those events because they just don't ring true to me. I got booted from the Fe Hung when I got pared up with a guy who was 255 ... I was 190 .... somehow we were both "Heavy" and there was no "super heavy" and no scales anyway.

He liked to charge in and use his weight. Legally hooking the side of his head would only allow him in and run me over. A heavy straight would keep him honest but he didn't care to block and got popped .... 1 warning. He did it again, got popped again and I got the boot.

To me, this is no fun. Also, going to the ground and stopping and getting a warning for taking someone down, is also no fun FOR ME. It's not what I'm looking for. Generally, I'm finding a growing group of folks who want to make these things as free as possible, knowing that none of us are assasins and trying to keep it safe.

Fighting in a tournament under 'Advanced" -- and this being a martial arts tournament -- to me, means being able and willing to accept someone who wants to kick and punch you how and where and how hard he wants and you being able to manage it.

If there is no technique, then call it brawling (God knows I have). Call it street fighting. If there seems method to the madness then call it technique. But I think its dangerous to point the finger from a "high level" of perfection. An "advnaced" martial artist should be able to face come what may.

Perhaps this title "advanced" is given out too easily. Every Tom, **** and Harry that owns a closet full of gear will go "fight" when you can only tag each others chest guard. Hell, my panzy surfer friends are willing to do more than that after a few pints of ****.

tailik

03-22-2005, 02:12 PM

Hey Ray

no big deal, i totally understand your desire to fight full contact. we will consider a full contact division next year and definitely make it as safe and organized as possible.

i met a guy during a competition who was competing in his first full contact match and lost one of his eyes during this match. i don't think he would say it was worth his eye. watching this guy warm up i could tell he had no business in the ring with a true advanced fighter. i think full contact matches are great teaching tools if done the right way with qualified and well trained fighters. there is a risk of getting your neck broken or serious injury because you were not trained and conditioned properly for the fight. in my professional career i have had to make several trips to coroners office for guys who were killed during regular fist fights. when you have seen a skull cracked open by the coroner and witnessed the damage caused to the brain from trauma like puss and other white fluids ooze from the brain due to swelling caused by blunt force to the skull, you have a very clear understanding and respect for the consequences of fighting in general.

take care :)
Derek

lkfmdc

03-22-2005, 03:05 PM

Derek,
I don't want to mess up your thread but I really feel I must comment. I fought full contact under different rules for many years, and I've promoted full contact events since 1994

If someone gets injured, it comes down to only two things, sometimes both at the same time

1. The person wasn't adequately prepard to fight
and/or
2. The people running the event didn't organize it and run it properly

My rule of thumb, people who have never fought, and don't train fighters, have no business offering "fighting" competitions. Experience with the USA WKF and others pretty much proves the point.

Someone losing an eye to a match is pretty much preposterous, in addition to obviously being tradgic...

That all being said, I can also say that "point fighting" is usually the bloodiest event known to man....

Liokault

03-22-2005, 03:18 PM

Some one losing an eye is surley somthing we would have heard of?
Can anyone find a link to anything about it?

Also the guy who took his eye out had probably practaced this move during his forms a thousand times, but "unlocked" it at a bad time.

lkfmdc

03-22-2005, 03:25 PM

Based upon my experience, I would hazard to guess that the eye was not "plucked out" but rather "lost" as a result of injury. This sort of injury can happen in bare knuckle, Tai Yim has one "lazy eye" due to his HK bare knuckle days....

Bare knuckle is, pardon me, RETARDED and anyone who tries to promote it falls into category #2... add to that the fact that the eye injuries usually also happen not only because of the bare knuckles but because the ref's don't control the action or stop the matches in time....

Liokault

03-22-2005, 03:28 PM

Hey Ray

i think full contact matches are great teaching tools if done the right way with qualified and well trained fighters. there is a risk of getting your neck broken or serious injury because you were not trained and conditioned properly for the fight. in my professional career i have had to make several trips to coroners office for guys who were killed during regular fist fights.

take care :)
Derek

The key here for me is that on one hand you talk about validating training in forms, then go on to say that guys are getting hurt due to lack of proper trainning!!!

Train properly by all means, train in forms by all means, but dont think that training in forms (alone of mostly) will prepare you for full contact or street situations.

tailik

03-22-2005, 03:39 PM

Hi David how have you been?

since this pertains to tournaments,i think your comments are appropriate. It seems that we agree on this topic and i was hoping to get a response such as yours. i am sure there are other threads about this subject. if not, maybe there should be one. with your experience i am sure we could learn alot from you about full contact tournaments. i am not really into the whole forum thing, but it is necessary these days to promote traditional tournaments. unfortunately on these forums you run into annoying little trolls, who would rather make dumb a$$ comments instead of having respectful discussions or debates. ;)

By the way, my regards to you and your classmates on the loss of your Sifu. coincidently i had been meaning to call you because one of your guys moved down here and stopped by our school last week. he mentioned that your Sifu had a picture of my Jo Si Jow Biu and i wanted to ask you about this.

take care
Derek

tailik

03-22-2005, 04:36 PM

o.k. LioKault i will play with you.

Earlier i mentioned the "learning cycle of fighting". i clearly explained that form practice can be used as technique practice then i mentioned that the other part of the cycle was actual fighting or sparring. please show me where i mentioned training in forms alone. so it appears to me that you have no point.

guys getting hurt due to lack of training and forms practice are to different issues. please re-read what i wrote. when i refer to proper training, think that most fighters would naturally assume that i was talking about physical conditioning, skill conditioning, and of course ring or sparring time. again you are writing before thinking.

now, we can have a respectful discussion or debate about anything you like or you can continue making an a$$ out of yourself with pointless comments. the interesting thing about you is that within your anal comments you bring up some good issues for discussions, although they have been obviously rebutted, your points could actually lead to a nice discussion if you weren't so disrespectful. how old are you 12? by being disrespectful to ar man without provocation, you are showing everyone reading that you have some serious issues and need some help. i do profiling for a living and in my professional judgement you need to get a life.

if you can't chill out, then maybe you should not read or participate in this thread. there are many other threads that you can participate in and voice your weak opinions. i've gotten enough emails from people who are tired of you so go away and play in your little sand box. The next time i am in the UK, which will probably be this fall, i would be happy to meet you and anyone with you to discuss respect. just send me your name and address and i'll take care of the rest. i have many brothers in the UK who will be glad to show me around.

now there are people reading this post who know i speak from experience and can back up my words. i have done so for many years, but just when i thought those days were over, i run into little trolls like you who want to pull me back. i am sure they also know what a respectful person that i am and that it is a shame for me to have to deal with guys like you on any level.

i thought forums were so supposed to be fun information sharing. it doesn't mean we have to agree, but it does mean that we can be civil. you are not on my maturity level so i am suggesting that you just go away. i must admit that you are starting to amuse me from my professional stand point.

Derek

Akhilleus

03-22-2005, 08:16 PM

Master Derek,

I was on your website tonight at work and while I found a lot of info on said tournament, I could not find a flyer per se, to put up at my schools...there were a bunch of things I probably could have used but honestly I don't think I am allowed to print out something w/ that much ink at work...can you mail us flyers? Or better yet let me stop by one day and pick one or two up, since I'm real close and that way we could meet if you are in...is that cool?

-Jon

Shaolinlueb

03-22-2005, 08:39 PM

so, i see mostly things end up just being a rumble when it comes to fighting in tournaments. i see karate tournaments run really well with fighting.

Liokault

03-22-2005, 09:43 PM

The next time i am in the UK, which will probably be this fall, i would be happy to meet you and anyone with you to discuss respect. just send me your name and address and i'll take care of the rest. i have many brothers in the UK who will be glad to show me around.

Derek

LOL

And you say your new to forums?

Liokault

03-22-2005, 09:45 PM

just send me your name and address and i'll take care of the rest. i have many brothers in the UK who will be glad to show me around.

Derek

LOL I think this man should be banned for making veiled threats to a forum member :rolleyes:

Liokault

03-22-2005, 10:07 PM

o.k. LioKault i will play with you.

Earlier i mentioned the "learning cycle of fighting". i clearly explained that form practice can be used as technique practice then i mentioned that the other part of the cycle was actual fighting or sparring. please show me where i mentioned training in forms alone. so it appears to me that you have no point.

OK

You said in your first post: Our ultimate goal is that with the promotion of this division we may see more kung fu techniques transfer into the Continuous Sparring matches. We are hopeful that after students witness this division, they will have a better appreciation for the long hours of form practice.

guys getting hurt due to lack of training and forms practice are to different issues. please re-read what i wrote. when i refer to proper training, think that most fighters would naturally assume that i was talking about physical conditioning, skill conditioning, and of course ring or sparring time. again you are writing before thinking..

And yet you said nothing about the appreciation of: physical conditioning, skill conditioning, and of course ring or sparring time. in your post, you only mentioned a appreciation of hours of forms.

now, we can have a respectful discussion or debate about anything you like or you can continue making an a$$ out of yourself with pointless comments. the interesting thing about you is that within your anal comments you bring up some good issues for discussions, although they have been obviously rebutted, your points could actually lead to a nice discussion if you weren't so disrespectful. how old are you 12? by being disrespectful to ar man without provocation, you are showing everyone reading that you have some serious issues and need some help. i do profiling for a living and in my professional judgement you need to get a life...

And yet your the one making personal insults here, and cyber challenges buddy :D

now there are people reading this post who know i speak from experience and can back up my words. i have done so for many years, but just when i thought those days were over, i run into little trolls like you who want to pull me back. i am sure they also know what a respectful person that i am and that it is a shame for me to have to deal with guys like you on any level..

Experience you say, you still haven't evolved past the 'its not kung fu because it looks like brawling' stage yet guy.

i thought forums were so supposed to be fun information sharing. it doesn't mean we have to agree, but it does mean that we can be civil. you are not on my maturity level so i am suggesting that you just go away. i must admit that you are starting to amuse me from my professional stand point.

Derek
.

Fun, sometimes, sharing, sometimes....civil, occasionally....mostly just repetitive

LOL cyber challenges are funny. Just PM me.

Pork Chop

03-23-2005, 06:22 AM

Good luck with the tournament, Tailik; I know it's going to be great!

And if the rest of you like the 5 Tigers Tourney, I'm sure you'll love the Wong tournament. (http://www.wongpeople.com)

(/shameless plug) :D

.

Ray Pina

03-23-2005, 06:43 AM

I think part of the problem is this .... a tournament says there will be "sparring" and that means a lot of things to a lot of people.

But if two high school football programs schedule to "have a game" both teams will expect, on opening kick off, that they will be running at each other with full speed and slamming helmets and throwing shoulders and basically trying to pop each other as hard as they can. Do injuries happen? Of course they do! It's a voilent activity, playing football. You know this when you join up for the team and have to tackle a thousand guys during tryouts and basically get the hell beat out of you. You know what to expect.

But why is it when MA get together to "spar" often times people look at you sideways for popping them? Hit someone while chi sauing and it seems like a capital offense ..... this is martial arts, right?

So my point is, maybe we'd be better off if all the degrees of "sparring" or "testing" or "playing" is kept within ones own training hall and make it universally known that crossing hands with someone outside the school, in a competitive environment, means bring your A game or prepare for a potential violent injury.

Of course this is extreme, but it brings me back to, why at a MA tournment full contact isn't a given, taken for granted?

There's a 1,000 folks ready to stwist and twirl and swing shiney aluminum and do mini-kung fu movie two-man sets, but why no "put the gloves on and lets go"? That is the finsihed product. That's what counts at the end of the day. Not how low you can go in your split while shooting out your spear.

tailik

03-23-2005, 06:46 AM

Good morning LioKault

Man you are too predictable and entertaining. i can see how you operate, you like to make false statements hoping that the person reading your post hasn't read all the previous post which clearly show that you have not point. Why do you continue these shenanigans? have i hurt your feelings? i hope that the following points will end this so that you stop embarrassing yourself. I can tell your one of those people that just likes to argue about nothing.

1. LOL - yes you are making me laugh

2. "veil threats" you need to look this up in the dictionary. i think it is probably clear to anyone reading that by your disrespectful behavior behind your computer you deserve an opportunity to behave the same way in the face of the person you unjustly disrespected. its' clear to any martial artist that you need a lesson in respect by any means. i sincerely hope that you learn this verbally before someone smacks you. By the way you insult people without any reason on these threads, i can assume that you are either "The Baddest Man" on this earth or a fool. maybe you need to take a course in Communication 101. maybe i'm just old school, but i learned that martial arts was about respect and i believe this is true today. i can assume that you are young because of your ridiculous thread in another section about getting arrested. grow up.

3. Again, when someone mentions "conditioning" you don't have to list every conditioning category of course fighting is a conditioning tool to prepare fighters for fights as well as other conditioning tools. If you read my previous post, you will see my mention of fighting. i asked you to show me where i said you need only forms practice to prepare for fights and you couldn't do so while anyone who read my previous post can find my mention of combining fighting/sparring with your training. Again you have no point. let it go. Can't you see that we actually agree on the importance of fight training. if you don't like forms, then cool.
Forms traditionally are just sequences of techniques. if you only like to practice varied techniques you can still obtain the ultimate goal. Boxers don't do forms, they practice individual techniques with their trainers and also independently so that when they spar or step into the ring, they have something to work with. universal

4. there are various ways to train for fighting. too much knowledge to mention in a post. So in the future, please don't assume that someone disagrees with you or doesn't recognize something because they don't list every aspect of fighting in one post.

5. cyber challenges - i think you need to re-read your first post. if you don't get what i am saying, then please don't come out from behind your computer, visit the Washington D.C. Area, and disrespect someone to their face because i would bet my house that you would get b*tch slapped.

6. Although i must admit that you are starting to amuse me, i think that since you initiated this stuff, you should show everyone that you have some sense of "mo duk" (martial ettitiquete) and end this non-sense now. if you would like to pm me or visit me, i welcome you.

In the words of a famous American poet named Rodney King, "can't we all just get along"

Derek

tailik

03-23-2005, 07:11 AM

Ray i am all for full contact fighting. lkfmdc's point is the key. the people fighting should be adequately prepared and the people coordinating the division should know what they are doing. when we bring full contact into our tournament, you can be assured that i will have qualified people running this division.

if a person steps onto the lei tai or ring, he should understand the consequences of such a sport. people mention fighting full contact in tournaments, but i am sure most of us have had many more full contact fights in class. Again i am all for full contact fighting, but i don't think you should not look down or criticize someone who chooses not to full contact. i know many guys who don't full contact, but can fight really well on the streets. i also know guys who call themselves full contact fighters, but can't fight for real. i just mentioned all this to show respect for people who do and people who don't.

If my student decides to fight full contact, i will first sit him down to discuss the consequences, so that if he steps into the ring and gets an injury, he will deal with it better.

second i would make sure that the people running the event have rules and other things in place to make it safe for my fighter.

third i would make sure that he was physically and mentally prepared.

tailik

03-23-2005, 07:19 AM

B'More- thanks for the support. we will see you at Wongs. Good Luck to you also. the plug was cool :)

Akhilleus - stop by anytime, just give me a call a few minutes in advance to make sure i'm in the school. we will also have a printable flyer up on the site in about two days. if it fits your schedule, lets grab something to eat.

Derek (Tailik)

Ray Pina

03-23-2005, 08:23 AM

Tailik, I agree with you. And I didn't intend any disrespect.... just because you guys are choosing not to fight full doesn't mean you can't. The best fighter I know has never "competed" but has fought with some of the biggest names and some tough unknowns.

As for folks being adequately prepared, if they know that its going to be full they will prepare themselves or they won't be interested. The problems I've found is when one group shows up wanting to play patty cake and another looking to knock some people down but they each didn't know the others intent before hand -- they were just used to what they normally qualify as "playing".

Anyway, best of luck with your tournament. I can only assume it must be a big headache tying all those strings together.

tailik

03-23-2005, 08:54 AM

Hey Ray no disrespect taken. i think you have some really good points. discussions & input like this will help improve the tournaments.

take care Ray and i hope the sewage problem is fixed
Derek (Tailik)

Ray Pina

03-23-2005, 09:37 AM

O God, thanks for reminding me. I have to say my landlord hooked it up and there was no trace when I got home ... I still did my own washing twice and then once more for good measure before taking a shower -- and that was just to get it clean so I can get in there this weekend and really get at it.

It will be some time before I get that sight -- and smell -- out of my mind.... now my cell phone is busted. Quite a strange week I'm having but at least a few girls have been hanging out. Got to take thje good with the bad I guess ;)

tailik

03-23-2005, 03:19 PM

Hey Sifu Jurak, man you just illustrated and explained what i am trying to do with this application division better than i did :)

i didn't want to make it just an ordinary application division, so i thought it would be more interesting to tie the applications to the forms we practice and see so often at tournaments. i figured most people would see where i was going. Although this isn't real fighting, competitors will be judged on their ability to demonstrate the potential effectiveness of their techniques.

i can remember when i would tell my sifu that I knew how to use a particular technique and he would then say to me "o.k. i am going to attack you and i want you to use your technique". Sifu would attack me with the same intensity of a person attacking me in a real fight. If my Sifu knocked me down, i learned one of three things 1. i used the technique incorrectly 2. i need to work on that technique alittle more or 3. that technique doesn't work :D
If i was able to use that technique against my classmate during drills or sparing it gave me confidence in certain techniques and a better appreciation for the forms which hold these techniques.

The competitors will be judged on a number of points like intent and intensity. if the attacks are slow and step by step they will probably not receive high scores. it's hard to demonstrate realism when it isn't a real fight, but we hope that the competitors will do their best to come as close as possible without killing each other. even in pre-set moves you can demonstrate the potential effectiveness of a technique in a real fight. When i use to box we would work on pre-set drills/techniques to prepare us for situations in the ring. The boxing coach could tell wether or not you could perform a specific technique effective enough against an opponent based on his experience. above all i think this division will be very interesting. it's definitely experimental and we're just trying to bring something alittle different and exciting to the kung fu tournament circuit. we may see how closely related many systems are to one another. Forms to me are like books of techniques. you just have to open it, know how to read it, and then apply it. i am sure that the competitors will be creative and probably teach us something that we can use to improve this division as well.

Sifu Jurak thanks for your support and input ;) i was definitely a member of the NACMAF generation and i am sure we met there. man those were the good old days. i remember seeing your sifu there. Once your sifu pulled me and my classmate aside and demonstrated a particular bow, then he said "jow Biu" trying to tell us that this was the bow of our Si Jo Jow Biu. i have always wanted to ask you guys about your sifu's relationship with Jow Biu. i think i saw in article with your sifu that he actually met jow biu?

if you get a chance, please go to our tournament website and check out the rules for Forms Application Division. We tried to keep the judging criteria simple.

hopefully we will see each other again in the future at another event.
Derek (tailik)

Liokault

03-23-2005, 04:27 PM

Good morning LioKault

i can see how you operate, you like to make false statements

Hmmm, I think I have only ever refereed to your statements. Could you please post some of my untruths?

By the way you insult people without any reason on these threads, i can assume that you are either "The Baddest Man" on this earth or a fool. maybe you need to take a course in Communication 101. maybe i'm just old school, but i learned that martial arts was about respect and i believe this is true today. i can assume that you are young because of your ridiculous thread in another section about getting arrested. grow up.

Ah, so you found the search function, I'm impressed.

3. Again, when someone mentions "conditioning" you don't have to list every conditioning category of course fighting is a conditioning tool to prepare fighters for fights as well as other conditioning tools. If you read my previous post, you will see my mention of fighting. i asked you to show me where i said you need only forms practice to prepare for fights and you couldn't do so while anyone who read my previous post can find my mention of combining fighting/sparring with your training. Again you have no point. let it go. Can't you see that we actually agree on the importance of fight training. if you don't like forms, then cool.
Forms traditionally are just sequences of techniques. if you only like to practice varied techniques you can still obtain the ultimate goal. Boxers don't do forms, they practice individual techniques with their trainers and also independently so that when they spar or step into the ring, they have something to work with. universal

Moving in the right direction here, but a bit different to your first post, to which my argument was against.

4. there are various ways to train for fighting. too much knowledge to mention in a post. So in the future, please don't assume that someone disagrees with you or doesn't recognize something because they don't list every aspect of fighting in one post.

When you post in your first message, that doing sequences from forms against an opponent will reduce the degrading (my word) of kung fu into brawling (your word), I think its fair to assume you disagree with my view.

5. cyber challenges - i think you need to re-read your first post. if you don't get what i am saying, then please don't come out from behind your computer, visit the Washington D.C. Area, and disrespect someone to their face because i would bet my house that you would get b*tch slapped..

Hmmm your probably right, I would likely get a negative response. But in real terms my days of worrying about being ***** slapped by wushu guys are long past (I looked at your web site.....lots of pics of forms and lion dances....not one of anything done against resistance! Not even semi contact).

if you would like to pm me or visit me, i welcome you.

LOL so you 'challenge' me......say your coming to the UK.....don't PM me, then ask me to contact you and travel to the USA!

In the words of a famous American poet named Rodney King, "can't we all just get along"

Derek

Indeed, but welcome to the internet and the world of internet forums.

PangQuan

03-23-2005, 04:57 PM

Jebus fraking krisp. I have an idea. Here go's.

Liokault, sorry, but I think you kind of went overboard there for a minute. Tailik was just trying to get out some info for some people who may be interested. As a mature and respectable martial artist, it is left up to your descretion to ignore his information if you are uninterested.

Tailik, I have realized sinse I began reading and posting on this forum, if I post a point of view or piece of information, if others do not agree and begin to "flame" me, I simply ignore them. This will usually solve the problem. As you state you do not frequent forums, this is merely a piece of usefull information I wish to pass on to you.

I think you guys should just tap gloves and mark this one up to the good ol' miscommunication. Many times it is difficult to fully display ones intentions in a limited space/time and in a literary format.

In addition Tailik, I am sad to say that I live on the west coast and am not available to travel. Otherwise I would go to your tourny, it sound quite interesting. It is nice to see people putting their time and resourses out there to help promote the art that each of us on this forum love.

tailik

03-23-2005, 10:23 PM

Thanks Pangquan. ;) this is the last one.

The following is the toned down version from what i wrote last night just in case kids are reading these post:

Dearest Mr. LioKault, let it go. do you have anger management issues? what do you want from me? people are starting to think that you are posting from an insane asylum.

Enough is enough. People like you use the anonymity of forums and screen names for the wrong reason. You go around to different threads disrespecting people and then hide from the consequences of your actions. Why don't you tell everyone who you are? i did. forget about the pm thing, just put it out there. show me that your not hidding.

Don't try and change your actions. When you disrespect someone you are in essence challenging them. In your disrespect for me you have also disrespected a number of people in my kung fu family who supported and contributed to the same ideas.

If you think that someone can't fight because he or she practices forms, you are sadly mistaken. Are you talking about real fighting or tournament fighting because it sounds like to me that you know nothing about real fighting.

Lets stop wasting time and cut to the chase. if you would like to visit me and attempt to prove your point in person, i will welcome you. i only request that you try to prove your point in front of my schools altar which houses my jow ga ancestors, sifu, and Gwan Gung. If you loose and i haven't taken you to the nearby Hospital Shock Trauma Unit, you must offer incense to my altar and bow to the altar to pay respect.

You are clearly the challenger. anyone who has read your first post can see that. i am just someone who wanted to invite my kung fu brothers and sisters to our tournament. As the saying goes, "either put up or shut up". either way stop posting your disrespectful comments and let everyone else who has posted maturly continue.

Since you are the challenger, the burden of proof is yours and not mine. don't let the distance between us be your excuse. if i personally decided to challenge someone in India, i would be prepared to get on a plane and fly to India or i would just keep my mouth closed.

another alternative would be for you to admit you were wrong and invite me for a beer or something to eat. either way make a decision and lets end this thing. The burden of proof is yours!

Dear members i must apologize again. this is my last response to LioKault.
If we don't honor and stand up for respect in the martial artists, people like Liokault will become the majority and ruin the ideas that make martial artist special for all of us. Imagine if the kids in your schools picked up Mr. LioKault's attitude.
Derek (Tailik)

Liokault

03-24-2005, 05:55 PM

Thanks Pangquan. ;) this is the last one.

You are clearly the challenger. anyone who has read your first post can see that. i am just someone who wanted to invite my kung fu brothers and sisters to our tournament. As the saying goes, "either put up or shut up". either way stop posting your disrespectful comments and let everyone else who has posted maturly continue.

Derek (Tailik)

Hmmm

my name is Derek Johnson. my address and telephone number are in my previous post, so if you would like to discuss this topic in person, you know where to find me. So, anything else you have to say online will only make you look more like the little p*nk you are. i think you should respect the forum rules and its' members by disrespecting a person to his face or shut up!

Derek (Tailik)

Well this bit sounds not unlike a challange. (from your second post)

The next time i am in the UK, which will probably be this fall, i would be happy to meet you and anyone with you to discuss respect. just send me your name and address and i'll take care of the rest. i have many brothers in the UK who will be glad to show me around.
Derek (Tailik)

Bit latter on you posted this.....again, looks not unlike a challange.

mysteri

03-24-2005, 09:32 PM

:)

hey sisuk tailik,

great to see u makin ur way around different forums. hopefully u won't allow a few irrelevants(who amusingly jus become continually evasive using psychological displacement :p) to spoil ur visits. but don't worry, as u might've noticed the greater majority of the community recognizes these "types" as something into which we really don't give much credence or stock... that being said, i'm glad ur enjoying urself thus far!:D

as u know, i'm very excited about ur tournament! i think u made a good point in that while it's in it's infancy, it will go through a (i'd venture to say) necessary growth process, as does anything else in nature. and most importantly, God-willing it will always be a successful work-in-progress, and certainly continue to evolve into an event which participants and spectators alike will continue to enjoy.

i'm looking foward to see how the new division(s) will work themselves out. as it will be a good experimental divison to encourage more MAist to better understand and utilize their gung fu, it is of course IMPLICIT to any serious TCMA that necessary conditioning would accompany learning any techniques. i kind of see this forms apps divison as what i would think as easier than forms in that u don't necessarily have to be pretty, but i would think that ur application should be identifiable and reasonably practical(i wouldn't expect to see any cartwheels or anything :D).

as for all the full-contact business, i think about everyone here made pretty valid points. apparently(or maybe not so apparent), anyone who's tried to run or help support a tournament knows that a lot of liability issues are at hand and not so easy to throw under the rug. i gotta admit that i think light-contact continuous is pretty brutal mainly cuz of the lack of protective gear, one tends not to feel so restricted as in full-contact w/ 12-16 oz gloves. someone also made a comment about some people not quite having the courage to fight full-contact try to take it out in light-continous. point well-taken. i certainly know it took me a bit of experience to want to fight others outside of my school full-contact, but i certainly would take advantage of opportunities that i can nowadays.

anyways, jus kickin ya a shoutie. we gotta try to see if we can head up to NYC one of these months for one of those "gatherings"! that should be fun. :)