WC and Mantis

[Tainan Mantis]

Some WC people have posed a question on the PM board. How do we fight a WC person.
I'm bringing it up here because I have a question of my own.

But before I mention it I'll say what happened when I played with WC.

At first I thought that I'd use the going to the side method as well as the mantis kicks to deal with the WC straight line attack.

Luckily, I'd already been beaten up enuf times to realize within a few seconds that this preconcieved notion was going to get me beat up again .

His pivoting on one point made my going to the side ineffective.
His sticky leg made my kicks harder to deliver than I'd anticipated.
And his one heel kick always shot up when he detected an opening with the legs.

In my defense, his techniques were very similar to mine and in some cases exactly the same. And so I found that head to head we played a very exciting game of chess where attack and counter attack could follow for a long time before someone got hit.

As we were partners for almost a year of every day sparring, I did find methods of going to the side, hook punches and takedowns that worked. He spent his time refining the techniques so that I couldn't make them work. In short, very educational for us both.

THE QUESTION

When playing with sleeve grabbers what do you do?

Allow me to explain.
Now I put on the Gi and play with the Judo boys. I play their rules, so no kicks and punches. But, even if I could punch, my sensitivity training wouldn't be of much use as the sleeve is grabbed and I can't get in a good punch.

I used to think it was silly to practice in a Gi as no one wears them in "reality." But now that it is getting cold and I'm wearing a jacket I feel like,"Yeah this sleeve grabbing has meaning."

So my preconceived notion of what I'd do against a grabber is false. I'm wondering what WC people with this experience would say.

[CLOUD ONE]

:eek: :D :D

[joy chaudhuri]

You dont always have time to take your coat off.
If you learn wing chun well, it should make no difference whether you are dealing with a sleeve grabber or some other style. WC priciples lead to all kinds of adaptation and simplicities. Lots of options.
One sleeve grabbed? Hit them with the other hand!
No time to use the other hand? Go with the flow and hit them with the sleeve held hand, elbows or shoulder as a foundation for follow up moves. never underestimate good wc...it is endless..
Dont be hung up on techniques.

[hunt1]

Yuen Fan is right on the mark.Go with the energy dont fight it.Remember if you are grabbed the opponent traps his own hand.take advantage.

[chi-kwai]

No kicks or punches? Thats like the guy Oddermensch told me about who says that his art is too deadly but is not meant to be fought against other martial arts...

If he is unwilling to play on open ground, then it should be pretty obvious to him that what he is learning is relatively useless.

No punches indeed.

--
chi kwai

[fa_jing]

Use the same techniques you would against any grab. I think it would be very hard to grab someone's sleeve in a real or realistic fight anyway. If someone did, you could probably counter grab them easily because of the space between the sleeve and your arm. -FJ

[OdderMensch]

well that guys was a bit off (i think) but Judo is a sport, a game, that has aplication from its Ju-Jitsu roots. If you realy want to play Judo, then play and have fun.

[Slayer]

Mantis guys are good, stay right in their kicking distance and dare them to kick you, when they do, crash them and get close. The Mantis have no hands when you are at a close distance.

Slayer

"I never let my schooling interfere with my education."
- Mark Twain

[OdderMensch]

Not the Mantis people I know. Best way I know of to deal with Mantis is stay close, stick to them and make them "play" our game. If they can get away or dart in and out, you're finished. But they definatly have good hand work in close. Not as good as WC's of course :D

[Rolling_Hand]

--The Mantis have no hands...

You have a wonderful way of telling it like it is while making people chuckle.
Have you ever seen Chu Ga Tong Long ( Southern Praying Mantis ) ?? - RH

[Tainan Mantis]

Not just a few times, but over an extended period?

I see that you are all prepared with stratagies on what to do against different MArtists, and that is a good thing.

But after sparring against different styles I find that I never hit a bullseye with my stratagy. In fact, I'm often way off the mark.

I see some people have said:
- it is hard to grab a sleeve in a fight
-hit with the other hand
-hit with hand that has been grabbed
-their grab has caused them to trap their own hands
-it is only a sport(judo)

Good points and I agree more or less with it all. But as I practice with the judo boys and I watch them practice against each other, some interesting thoughts come to my mind.
-They grab very quickly with a solid almost unbreakable grip
-they can release it as soon as the tables turn
-grabbing speed can be said to be the equivalent of hitting speed
-although only a sport, it allows them to go full power all out all the time
-and just like other stylists they have their strategy to deal with strikers.

These are my opinions and observations. Thank you for sharing yours with me.

[OdderMensch]

-grabbing speed can be said to be the equivalent of hitting speed

I've been taught that a grab can never be as fast as a strike could be. The reason being the thumb. If you try to grab as fast as you can punch you put your thumb at great risk. You can "meet & grab" or "hook & catch" But this should always be funcionaly slower than straight strikeing.

So we train to deal with grabs as slow punchs.

sad for me there is no good Judo club in the area :( so i will have to travel some to test my theorys.

[Steven T. Richards]

If we are talking about abstracted movements in a non-real-time (i.e. not a struggle/fight)environment then the abstracted straight line is a quicker movement. Real fights aren't like that they are complex interactive events with overlaying interference patterns of movement that can cancel one another out.

Then, there are even more 'subjective' factors such as health, attention/concentration, pre-emptive actions etc etc.

Non of us are so 'constant' as to be up and running at perfect speed all of the time. Any number of intra and inter subject variables can confound 'style' of any kind.

Most of us try to compare abstraced techniques in near perfect set piece situations and take the supposed 'result' as transferrable outside of that compliant and substantively 'unreal' scenario.

UFC and Cage fighters have had success as grapplers against strikers - although of course things have evened out recently.

One of the factors that serves to sustain delusions about martial arts is the abstraction game. Fights are nasty things that borrow more heavily on evolutionary patterns of aggression and dominance than anythiong so 'cultured' as a martial arts style.

One of the drawbacks of considering the truth of this is that it relativises our claims for our martial arts and forces the more experienced of us to reconsider the follies of our inexperience.

[OdderMensch]

however

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
One of the factors that serves to sustain delusions about martial arts is the abstraction game. Fights are nasty things that borrow more heavily on evolutionary patterns of aggression and dominance than anythiong so 'cultured' as a martial arts style.
[/quote]

but can not reason and disipline sway aggresion and evolutionary paterns?

However I agree in abstract. Fights can get real primitive, real quick.

[Nichiren]

I agree that you have to protect against the grabbing of Judo guy(or Jutsu..). I have found out that if you keep to the following you will increase your chanses:

1. Wu sau closer to the body
2. Make him pay for unsuccessful attempts to grab
3. When he shoots for the body, use your feet to position yourself 45 degrees from him and attack (Do not do this if you can't hit him with a punch first to distract him. Do not take a step back during the movement. Keep up the pressure, e.g. chainpunches, until he loses balance).
3. If he grabs you, move towards him and keep punching kneeing, elbowing. Do not pull.
4. If he gets you on the floor keep the techniques flowing and keep tight. Tuck your elbows and knees in and do not give him your back. Relax! Do not try to stand without distance to him.

This was some of my experiences with grapplers. It is important to remember that even on the ground you stick to WC. The trick is to train this so you can relax. Most karate and WC guys ending up on the floor panic because they are not used to fighting on the ground. As Keith Kernsprecht said, "Never wrestle a wrestler". Use WC always.

[Steven T. Richards]

Oddermensch:

yes in an ideal world. Socrates (whom you should be familiar with from your reading of Plato) was
of course a champion of the 'divine Logos'. He had the advantage of having been a soldier as well as an artist (sculptor) and a dialectical philosopher. The dialectic as a method however, fails under extreme pressure (the natural ground of instinct), as well as failing miserably in the prresence of fixed emotive ideas or indeed of neurosis.

If you apply the dialectic physically, even if in a controlled pressure testing way, then many of the flaws in reasoning off and away from abstraction are brought clearly into relief.

Just as in 5th century BC Athens, this will be unpopular today: with many MA types. So very very few of us have any taste at all for critical self-reflexive analyisis, particularly over something quite so emotive and abstract as aliegence to a style. Hence the likely failure of any appeal to the divine logos in debate on TCMA.

[wingchunalex]

i might try the ususal techinques for getting out of a grab (tan sau, etc). or just a good hard fast tug might work, i don't know for sure what would work. you could try wrist locks maybe. and about judo just being a sport, not so. there is a guy at my school who has done w.c. for 10 years and was also offered a spot on the u.s. olympic judo team, i've been doing w.c. for 6 years and he still flips me a around like a rag doll, not as much as he used to but he is still pretty deadly with it. and my grand father learned judo in the army. i think the throws are a nice addition to any striking art.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[[Censored]]

Grabbing a sleeve is much easier then grabbing an arm.

- Sleeves move slightly less and slower then the arms
- Less chance of jamming fingers
- Sleeve takes the edge off many WC grip-breaking techniques

So make sure to take your shirt off and cover yourself in oil before fighting grapplers :)

On second thought, maybe that's exactly what they want you to do? :eek:

[This message was edited by [Censored] on 11-12-01 at 05:05 PM.]

[yenhoi]

It doesnt matter if the opponent grabs your arm, sleeve, or whatever - if he grabs you: punch him.

Attack the opponents centerline, throw him off balance, negate his power generation.

If your opponent has one hand on one of your arms, then there is an opening for a strike.

strike!