what's the strategy when your perimeter has been breached?

[WanderingMonk]

http://media.skoopy.com/vids/vid_00159.wmv

basically, a brawl at a party. it was crowded and the attacker overwhelmed the defender and proceed to punch continously.

to generalize the situation, what is the PM strategy

1. when the attacker has breached the defender's perimeters and is in clinch range?

2. do your school have drills in which the student start from a disadvantageous position?

My own comment would be try to clinch prevent him from punching. work for a under-hook clinch and try to slam the guy in order to gain the dominant position.

[EarthDragon]

WOW, let me see................... speaking as a sifu, and being an older guy, I would have to say staying away from that type of environment. alcohol, lots of dudes and small quarters spells DANGEROUS GROUND. But that is comming from a 38 year old guy who grew up.. LOL

NOW......... speaking from experience as a 21- 25 year old hard ass growing up in NY who has been in lots and lots and even worse situations.

1. when trouble stared and the mood changed grab a long neck beer bottle by the neck and break the bottom off.

2.there were also lots of metal folding chairs in the room, and lamps, maybe even a metal telphone. pick up whatever is around you and use it!

3. Have one of my boys at the party back me up

4. just leave when the mood changed and you could tell something was brewing.

5. Big guy, go low, definatly trap the right arm somehow , but stop the flurry of punches immedialty, keep your back to the wall incase his boys want to jump in.

I have been in situations much worse, 10 on 10 gang fights. (before they used guns)
wrong places at the wrong time, walking through spoken terrritorry, attempted muggings, bar brawls you name it i have bene in it. the best advice is to read situations and react quickly, know when your feeling trouble and think of your plan, be prepared, check your way out incase it gets real bad.

I watched a guy get stomped by 4 guys from a hotel window and had the police not showed up this guy would have been dead, he was laying on the ground in the fetal posistion and they kept kicking and stomping, so you never know..........

[mantis108]

Hi Wandering Monk,

Thanks for sharing the clip. In the spirit of sharing, I uploaded the following clip of our Sunday training sessions:

http://rapidshare.de/files/955365/groundwork.mpg.html

This is pretty much the way our workout is like (with sparring session near the end of the class which is not shown in the clip). We are drill oriented rather than form oriented. Now as this clip is taken from training session, the students are trying to work on the techniques. It is at time sloppy. The key idea here is to work on the flow from one fighting range transit to another and then break off (escape) and go at it again. These material aren't meant to be style specific but it is totally possible to add mantis specific stuff in there. We drill this way so that we grow accustomed to MMA type of attacks. Reversed engineering - know thy enemy, know thyself. ;)

Enjoy

Warm regards

Mantis108

[shirkers1]

I saw this one a while back and I laugh every time I see it. One because the black guy takes a run at him and still hits the white guy. 2 after the white guy finally starts to gain ground you hear "where my dogs at" "get em off of me".. from the black guy. Typical willing to start the fight but when it comes down to him possibly losing it's "where my dogs at" "get em off of me"...

As a mantis practitioner my insight is the same as Earth D's. You need to know your surrounded etc. The guy is verbally threatening you, expect a fight or leave. Don't stand there with your thumb up your ass or arguing. All that does is give either him or one of his friends a chance to get you when your jabber jawing. Hence the guy running from across the room and landing a punch. OOOPS guess he should've been ready. Instead of calmly reacting the white guy just rushed in trying to throw blows himself instead of squaring up, he ended up going to the ground because of sloppyness and homeboy starts to reign blows apon his face. He should have clinched and tried to trap his arms to prevent the onslaught and try to get in a pro active mount or break off to square up again. I know it's easier said than done, but that's why we train so we don't have to think we just act.

[Three Harmonies]

It was clear from the get go that he wanted to fight, so fight. If you are not going to throw, then shut up.
Jake :D

[WanderingMonk]

Yes, situation awareness is important.
Yes, walking away is an option (in some instances).

basically, I am looking for views on addressing a weakness within my game. if the opponent's forward pressure overwhelms you, what are your options beside clinching?

This clip might not be the best example, but it does illustrate a person being overwhelmed and punches started to rain down.

[WanderingMonk]

Hi Wandering Monk,

Thanks for sharing the clip. In the spirit of sharing, I uploaded the following clip of our Sunday training sessions:

http://rapidshare.de/files/955365/groundwork.mpg.html

This is pretty much the way our workout is like (with sparring session near the end of the class which is not shown in the clip). We are drill oriented rather than form oriented. Now as this clip is taken from training session, the students are trying to work on the techniques. It is at time sloppy. The key idea here is to work on the flow from one fighting range transit to another and then break off (escape) and go at it again. These material aren't meant to be style specific but it is totally possible to add mantis specific stuff in there. We drill this way so that we grow accustomed to MMA type of attacks. Reversed engineering - know thy enemy, know thyself. ;)

Enjoy

Warm regards

Mantis108

Mantis108,

thanks for the clip. It is almost jujitsu-like. The knees kicks from the ground was cool, and interesting escape from the arm-bar.

wm

[BeiTangLang]

Yes, situation awareness is important.
Yes, walking away is an option (in some instances).

basically, I am looking for views on addressing a weakness within my game. if the opponent's forward pressure overwhelms you, what are your options beside clinching?

Options as I see them;
1. Use foot-work & Fan-che.
2. drive his arms up & reverse bear-hug him (suplex).
3. Give way to the pressure & use body-"gow"(even with elbows).
4. Turn tail & haul @ss.





This clip might not be the best example, but it does illustrate a person being overwhelmed and punches started to rain down.

You would be suprized at how well long fist techniques work at close range.
Discount nothing. Use common sense.
~BTL

[grifter721]

What everyone says makes sense, but at the same time we are not ground fighters, we are stand up MOVING fighters. One We do the bringing in a fight...You should always be prepared.
Second Footwork is Key....having your back against a wall or being closed in only reduces your footwork capabilities therefore you are helping to defeat yourself..I dont really have to deal with foolishness as I try to stay away from it all, but as ED says I keep a beer bottle or even glass ready for action/distraction. But I dont know why you would immediately break the bottle...I would use it as a 14 inch weapon....
third is someone is moving towars you foolishly/un****rolled, set yourself up and either get ready a vicious heel kick to the stomach, or pivot back into whatever is clever and knuckle him right down his foolish head. Just beyond his skull plate.

and then haul ass

[BeiTangLang]

"What everyone says makes sense, but at the same time we are not ground fighters, we are stand up MOVING fighters"

I cannot help but agree. I must have missed the ground-fighting thread...I'll have to go back to find it.

The 4 options as I saw them for answering your question should all be taking mantis techniques in mind when executing (#2 was a bit of a stretch by smashing the opponents head on the floor, but technicaly, its a throw, not a ground technique). Quick footwork is a must. Using good sense in what you use is as well.

Yes, backing yourself into a corner is never a good thing, but, it can also make your opponent have too much confidence & attack with too much force giving you an edge in avoidance & getting the hell out of the corner.

Heres a tip for you;
If you always need to keep a bottle or glass at the ready for action/distraction, you'll most likely deserve it if you get smacked while being there.

Best wishes,
~BTL

[Three Harmonies]

Even if you are a groundfighter, that is a classic example of a situation where you would not want to take it to the ground!
Jake :D

[shirkers1]

I agree jake, the guy would have been smart to stay outside where he had more room to attack or get away if need be instead of couped up in a small room full of people.

[-N-]

what's the strategy when your perimeter has been breached? This question implies that Mantis has a distance of which it tries to keep the other person outside.

Mantis takes the fight to the other person. In close you can use elbow, hip, and shoulder strikes, leg traps, and takedowns.

N.

[mantis108]

If I were the jury on this "assult" case, I don't think I would vote favorably for the guy, whoever he is regardless of race, holding the "weapon" (ie broken beer bottle, chair, etc.) the clip as it stands is just a brawl, which could be a lesser charge of battery?

First of all, this is assumingly a "friendly" party. It could be someone trying to crash the party. We don't know the exact details of the arguement without the audio. Now, it looks to me the white guy didn't quite know or just plain refused to back off. While there were people trying to descalate the situation, he seemed to be unconsciously trying to "be the man". BTW, I believe there are some degrees of "honor" involved here, so weapon is out of the question here IMHO. I guess that the number one mistake there was to be the man/hero. So I am not surprised that the fight would follow. Depending on which way you looked at it, he was either sucker punched or the black guy took the fight to him. Either case, he wasn't ready. Without awareness, he is but a fish out of the water. If he were smart, he would have just took that shot, took it like man and walked away. But he wanted "face" or revenge or whatever. At this point, rage took over. He would believe he'd the power to take the black guy on.

Here's the thing that I think we should be honest and look at the situation. The fight happened as it is in a small room filled with furnitures and people. There is no ifs and ors and buts. The reality is the white guy somehow ended up being mounted and just was just taking some serious shots - classic ground and pound by the black guy. Come to think of it the white guy had a headlock but the black guy was too strong (a bit taller too) for him to clinch effectively with a head lock. I think this is a case when your bell gets ring, you can't think straight. Tunnel vision set in for the white guy and he was just trying to wrestle with the big black dube.

Hi WM,

I incorporated and/or designed these drills as exposures to BJJ and MMA. It is an attempt to demystify those delivery systems for my students who often watch UFC/ NHB type of events. Some of them has previous experiences in MA that are related to those disciplines. You would not believe the frequence of questions asked about counters to those stuff. From there we find solutions from our mantis arsenal.

The armbar counter was something I picked up by working with a grappler who hosted a seminar in my area. I showed this to my students because it was a question by a 12 old girl who is in my class frustrated by the armbar technique and wanted to be able to get out. She is smaller than the lady in the clip. So when she is working with bigger guys like that one who holded the shield, she can't relie on strength, agility, and/or explosiveness alone. This way is pretty much non attribute based and more suitable and manageable for her physque. You might have noticed that it also ties in with the solo drill in the beginning of the clip.

The knees are CCK TCPM's favorites as our takedowns and throws often ground the opponent within the effective range of the knees (elbows too). In executing the armbar, we would knee the face first, but in this clip it's not done properly. BTW, I think is illegal to actually knee (pin and grind is okay I think) a grounded opponent in tournament but you should do it on the street.

Hope this clarifies it for you.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[EarthDragon]

GRIFTER 721,
Just to elaborate......... I have been hit over the head with a long neck and although it hurt it didnt stop me or put me down. however i have been in a situation where one was broken and waved in fron of me and I reall ythought twice about whether or not it was worth it, and of course it wasnt so it intimates tremendously but when push comes to shove you can cut with it, rather than just **** the guy off by smaking him in the head. be well and dont try this at home. LOL again that was a much younger and foolish after adolecent...

[mantid1]

wandering monk

I read an article once by Brendan Lai with some fighting theory. One was "attack late but finish first" or something like that. I may not understand what he meant but I see it that it is very important to get in the first attack or sequence of attacks in and make them effective (we all know that). Maybe the black guy read the same article or trains in mantis :)

This could also be done with using the old brain and getting out of the situation before it happens.

If I were to say that mantis had one weakness it would be in the grappling/ground fighting area. Dont want to offend anyone. :eek:

My best advice to you for the type of situation on the clip is to fight san shou. It will cover the situations that are on the clip. You will get charged, kicked, punched to all areas of the body and thrown to the ground in various ways. You will have to apply your own time limits for holding. If you wear the proper equiptment it is fairly safe (I have had less students hurt with this type of training than the light contact stuff) and you will get to experience getting hit and hitting without getting the muay thai type of injuries.

I wish I could fight more of the san shou but I dont like to fight students for various reasons and dont have any kung fu brothers in my area to train with. I feel like my skills are not what they used to be. I need to do something about this!

[grifter721]

Hey Bei,

i didnt mean grab his head and smash it to the floor I meant....if you are in a right stance, or Left stance whatever you are in...pivot back into the opposite stance, and using the front of your knuckles..the joints at wich the the fingers curl in...(hard to explain I know) comes down in a nice quick arc right down on top of his forehead or right down his nose, and then maybe finish it off with a backfist.
Second, I by no means am a violent or agressive person...I just keep a bottle or glass in my hand because when I am out a drink a bit, and when I am in a public settting, where there are people that I dont know, I keep my self on yellow alert.
I doubt that there will be anything going down for the night BUT if there was, I know excatly what I am going to do. For instance if a really big bloke was just drunk and foolish and he PICKED an unavidable fight, that bottle/glass will be used. But no, please do not think I hold those weapons LOOKING or even ITCHING for a fight, that is not the way I was taught.

Ed, I would like to not break the bottle first bec, I would prefer to swing it in short strong, precise strikes, and once it break then I would stab......
Sifu's style of is aggressive, Bei's teacher should know, he has trained with us.
But yes Bei all of Master Chow's students are not hot heads.

[shirkers1]

WOLFEN sorry but that's just a frat party if I've ever seen one... Starting at time: 52 in the vid you hear "get him off of me" "get him the F**k off me" "where my BOYZ at" multiple times sorry I said where my dogs at. So yes I was watching the same vid. Typical frat boy muscle heads period, flexing beer muscles. The guy got his shots in as soon as it looked like he was on the bottom and could be in trouble he wanted help...

[shirkers1]

Yeah listen again the black guy has the deep raspy voice. I study these videos, as many as I can get my hands on because that's pretty much what you are going to face in the really real world. Not everyone is a UFC champion, full blown tactical fighter. Mostly hot head drunks who can't control themselves in public. I'm not in high school any more so the need to fight just to fight isn't there so why bother unless you have to. I've been around almost all of these situations and you begin to see how things are going to go down. Either knuckle up or leave. Stand around and argue and you more than likely will get jumped. If you have plenty of friends with you then you might be able to even the score. But it will never be one on one in a group setting. Someone will try to get a free shot in. Bottom line white guy could have just left but he wanted to stand around and take a free shot.

[BeiTangLang]

k guys, enough annalysis of who said what! LOL!

What would you do as a mantis practitioner?

(I almost moved this one to the main forum, but wanted to get some decent replies. If this is not going to stay on a mantis theme, its going to the main forum)

[-N-]

k guys, enough annalysis of who said what! LOL!

What would you do as a mantis practitioner?If the fight is inevitable, take the fight to the other person on your own terms rather than allowing him to "breach a perimeter". In close, use elbows, hips, shoulders, legs, head. Bounce him out and follow up with striking. Or stay tight and follow up with takedowns.

N.

[BeiTangLang]

If the fight is inevitable, take the fight to the other person on your own terms rather than allowing him to "breach a perimeter". In close, use elbows, hips, shoulders, legs, head. Bounce him out and follow up with striking. Or stay tight and follow up with takedowns.

N.

I couldn't agree more.

[phoenixdog]

Basic mantis. Go from the wheel to the hook.

[Pilot]

Mantis works well in close and with multiple attackers. As far as someone invading your space (breaches your perimeter) that just comes down to training. There are many tactics that most styles use against attackers in numbers. For example, grab one guy and as you move around, shove him into the others (or throw into others). Roll away from an attacker and come up with something from the ground to throw in their face. The best training is sensing what is going on before you get into that problem. As it has been mentioned, not going to places that attract thugs like that is a big plus. You don’t see a bunch of crackheads in church! :eek:

[jwwmantis]

Mantis definitely works well in close. Don't forget about the sticky hands and legs.

jwwmantis

[WanderingMonk]

Thanks to all who replied. :)

[Three Harmonies]

AMEN to that Youknowwho!! :D
Jake

[CFT]

Yes, backing yourself into a corner is never a good thing, but, it can also make your opponent have too much confidence & attack with too much force giving you an edge in avoidance & getting the hell out of the corner.I have been given the advice in the past that against, say two on one, it can be advantageous to back yourself up near a wall. It means you don't have to watch your back and cuts down the avenue of attack to the 180-degrees in front of you.

[Judo_iaidoka]

Ive only been in one real fight and I won that because I attacked first, I could sense from the sh*t talking and the raised voices that their would be a fight so instead of waiting i just said to myself f*ck it and went for it, completely took the guy by suprise
in the middle of him saying something I punched him in the face then kneed him followed by a left jab to the stomach, he fell to the ground and started to cry, so from that experience i think its best to inflict as much pain as fast as possible first, it will psychologically destroy a person and put them in shock if they arent expecting it. I dont know much about mantis but it definately seems like a style were you would want to get in the first blows, most people in the real world attack drunk or in a rage and throw their body completely into it, once they have momentum its hard to stop it and by the time you do stop it you already have taken alot of damage.

[phoenixdog]

Very good description and advice for a bar fight in the good old usa.Also a good strategy against shaved head,tattooed,ear ring wearing harley bikers.In the third world,however,it will go down differently.

[Pilot]

Very good description and advice for a bar fight in the good old usa.Also a good strategy against shaved head,tattooed,ear ring wearing harley bikers.In the third world,however,it will go down differently.

I guess you haven't been around much have ya? There are 3rd world countries safer than some of our cities. Thats nothing to brag about anyway.