when your grip gives before your main movers

[rubthebuddha]

ran into a bit of a problem today. the past month or two have been my first proper time doing deadlifts (i'm preferring stiff-legged), and as such, every time i add weight, it's a new pr. i did 225x5 today just fine, but the second set, my grip was about to give after two reps, and the same happened when i tried again for more on a third set -- only two reps.

after reading what fajing said about hitting his grip max before his pull max, i started to figure that this problem for me will get worse, not better, unless i do something about it.

the question is, what is a david to do about it? i've been on the same ptp cycle since i started, waved back a couple times after some undesired periods off, and i feel i can pull at least another 30 before this cycle calls it quits. my back is making happpy progress, but my grip, mainly in my off-hand (obviously) is going to give me un-joy unless i do something about it.

suggestions?

[IronFist]

I dunno. Try farmer's walks. I haven't had that problem yet so I don't know.

[AndrewS]

I had the same problem, then I took 8 months off deadlifting to use k-bells and the thick handles improved my grip significantly.

Personally, I use a hook grip, until I go for PR, then, if things are shaky, I use straps. My last max on deadlift, for instance, I pulled 456 without straps, then pulled a pr for 471 with straps, mainly so I wouldn't have to worry about my grip while maxing. Using this cycle (always lift my last PR without straps, then PR with them) has worked nicely for me.

Heavy farmer's walks and rack pulls may help too.

Andrew

[Chief Fox]

Make a home made clubbell and do a couple workouts with it a week. You really have to grip it to stabilize the club. They're really cheap and easy to make.

Here's the link: http://www.geocities.com/fightraining/klub.html

They also work your shoulder stabilizers and are fun to swing around.

[red5angel]

I've always had relatively weak hands so I use straps for some of my heavier lifts. I also did tons of wrist and hand stuff at the end of a workout just to try to keep up.

[fa_jing]

Well if you weren't hitting failure or discomfort with your hands before, then you are only really just now starting to train them. Have you tried switching hands between sets? That seems to help. Your grip recovers pretty fast, so I'm thinking that it is because you are deadlifting frequently on PTP. I have had many occasions where I had to take 2-3 days off from pulling just to let my grip recover.

I always have more grip problems with long sets than with reps of 3 or less, so you might want to do more singles, doubles etc.

I'm surprised that you are surpassing your grip with a straight-legged pull. One other thing you could do is to do moderate squat work before you deadlift. That would pre-tire your legs and back. I'm seeing that in the future for myself.

[FooFighter]

I guess you have to specifically work on your grip strength. I would recommend that you brush off the dust from your Captain crushers, wrist roller, and etc. By the way, I would not recommend the home made clubbells. However, if you are cheap or cant afford thr real thing, then make one at your own risk.

[Chief Fox]

I guess you have to specifically work on your grip strength. I would recommend that you brush off the dust from your Captain crushers, wrist roller, and etc. By the way, I would not recommend the home made clubbells. However, if you are cheap or cant afford thr real thing, then make one at your own risk.

I'm curious. Why no homemade clubbells?

[abobo]

Grip training is everything. I say this with CoC in hand.

[Ka]

Farmer Walks, but also consider Power Shrugs, alternate hands,and swaping grips.
With Shrugs you can load with larger amounts then that you DL,work all grips then proceed to DL.
But in general all break downs of O lifts will help Bar grip for obvious reasons.

[Mo Lung]

I guess you have to specifically work on your grip strength. I would recommend that you brush off the dust from your Captain crushers, wrist roller, and etc. By the way, I would not recommend the home made clubbells. However, if you are cheap or cant afford thr real thing, then make one at your own risk.You know, this is a really quite offensive post.

[Chief Fox]

You know, this is a really quite offensive post.

Yeah, I know, I guess I'm cheap, poor and like to take risks. :D

[rubthebuddha]

I'm surprised that you are surpassing your grip with a straight-legged pull. One other thing you could do is to do moderate squat work before you deadlift. That would pre-tire your legs and back. I'm seeing that in the future for myself.

wouldn't pre-tiring myself out be counterproductive to making larger gains in how much i can actually pull?

as my squatties are pretty craptacular right now, i'm doing 5x5 to work on form, particularly on the bottom end of the lift. so i don't take away from my deads, i do deads first (right after bench), then squatties.

as far as doing a straight-legged pull, my form with that is miles ahead of my form on a standard dead, so i'm sticking to straight-legged to get my p-chain nice and toasty. when i'm feeling strongeri may switch back to standard, but i'm liking the straight-legged stuff more than normal anyway. :)

as far as clubbells, i don't have the money to spend on the supplies, much less on one of sonnon's videos or clubs. i'm getting married a month from wednesday, and even if i could spend money on fitness stuff, i have other things i'd rather buy first.


Yeah, I know, I guess I'm cheap, poor and like to take risks. :D didn't NWA have a song about you? something like ... strawberry? :eek: :D ;)

[Toby]

Grip training is everything. I say this with CoC in hand.I'm gunna put this in my sig. Wise words.

Rubby, I train grip twice a week pretty heavily. I reach failure on double pronated, then switch to alternate grip for the rest of my cycle and haven't reached failure on that (or come close). I've got some straps if I ever do (unlikely unless I start lifting like AndrewS, Ford or fa_jing).

[Toby]

i'm getting married a month from wednesdayGood luck, man. Keep us updated.

[Ford Prefect]

lol @ abodo. My CoC is in my desk drawer... painful.

First of all, good luck with the wedding, Rub. My year anniversary is coming up in a few months. So far so good. ;)

Secondly, I apply to the philosophy of "you're only as strong as your weakest link". While all top powerlifters and most oly guys train with straps to ensure their prime movers get the most work possible, they have different goals than you or I. They want to get stronger in a couple lifts while we want to be strong overall, healthy, and able to perform athletically. That being the case, I always recommend strapless lifting and letting your grip catching up with your prime movers. Doing extra grip-only workouts some time during the day will help too. Things like farmer walks, CoC squeezing ;), wrist roller, thick bar barbell/db/kn work, towel dead hangs for time or pull-ups, etc. Just 15 minutes 2-3x/week for a month or so would work wonders and help bust through a plateau.

Homemade clubbells are a great idea too. Scott Sonnon even posted an article in his CST magazine (or discussion forum) a while back on how to create safe homemade ones. If you can't track it down on his site, let me know. It wouldn't surprise me if he removed it from his site since he can't profit from it. I'm sure I have it saved on my harddrive some place. It will take some digging though.

[Ford Prefect]

http://www.geocities.com/fightraining/klub.html

Pretty sure that's the homemade clubbel page. I believe Sonnon posted it on his discussion forum or on his Q&A on MMA.tv maybe a little over a year ago. To paraphrase his words they were "While nothing can be a substitute for a real clubbell (insert trademarks here), this is the best thing I've seen and I'd recommend it to somebody who could not afford one."

[FooFighter]

Mo Lung, I am sorry if you were offended by the post, but I was being frank. If what I wrote was not true, then I am wrong. However if I wrote was was true, then I am being honest. I know many people who make their own products due to economicall reasons. Now if I was poor or cheap which I was back in my college days, then I would no doubt make my own make shift exercise tools. But make no mistake, you can make your own beers, sodas, or whatever but it will never be the same quality as the original. Perssonally, I am not against home-made clubbells, but if you want to go deeper, heavier, and have safe CST workout, then it would be "ideal" to have the real thing. Ford, is right Sonnon had recommended a make shift clubbell for those who could not afford it and maybe he deleted the intel on how to make one because of economical gain? I dont know, but it is a business and he aint selling crap in my opinion when it comes to clubbells.

[Chief Fox]

I just want to make one thing clear. I CAN afford to buy a clubbell or two if I wanted to. The reason I made one and still recommend making one is because I'm not in the habit of just throwing money at a new piece of equipment without first knowing if the equipment will be benficial to me. :cool:

[fa_jing]

wouldn't pre-tiring myself out be counterproductive to making larger gains in how much i can actually pull?



I don't see why. As long as you pull first maybe twice a month?

[rubthebuddha]

Good luck, man. Keep us updated. well, here's the news: april 23, houston, then off to st. kitts for the honeymoon. as far as the general stuff, i just started a really good job this week at rice university. after several months of lame temp work at random places and submitting hundreds of job applications in my new home of houston, i was temping at rice, waiting to hear if i got a permanent job for which i had applied. they offered and obviously i accepted. after probation is up, i'll begin to take classes there. rice is the 17th-best doctorate-granting university in the US (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php), so i'd be retarded not to take advantage of a tuition waiver. i have a BA already, so graduate work shall commence in the near future. other than that, we'll be getting a new apartment shortly, maybe trading in our 4runner for a newer 4runner, and who knows what else.

after months of hesitance and anxiety over an upcoming marriage while not having a secure job, things are finally coalescing into something not just good, but brimming with potential. that tuition waiver? it applies to my woman, too, when she says "i do."

now back on topic ... thanks for all the tips. since i have the new job, i, too, can keep my CoC in my desk. when my coworkers wonder what that odd sound is, i'll just say, "oh, nothing. i'm just squeezing my ..."

as far as doing higher-volume squats first being counterproductive, i'm just thinking that any fatigue that occurs before i dead simply means i won't be able to pull as much. a lack of pulling power means weaker gains, both in amount i can pull, as well as lessened improvement in other areas (like me traps, joints, etc.). it just seems to make more sense to do the low-volume work like 2x5 deads first, then go on to higher-volume stuff like 5x5 squats. that's why i dead first, and why i'm hesitant to switch that up.

[FooFighter]

Chief Fox,

I am glad you can afford to buy a clubbell or two if you wanted to and I am sorry if you were offended what I wrote. Being cheap and frugal isnt a sin or even crime in my book and it is totally acceptable for those who have a limited budget and those who are unsure of the investment in such an equipment. If my opinion counts, then Kettlebells and Clubbells are good products and worth the long term investment toward your training. Health and fitness is a lifestyle for me and not a hobby. So my investment in KBs and Cbs makes sense in my world and maybe this does not any make sense for others? From my own experience, I have found them to be very useful in my own training. Out of my own curiousity, may I ask how long have you worked with your make shift clubbells? What is your opinion on Clubbell training? And is this type of equipment benficial to you?

With Respect and Strength,
Bao Tran

[Ford Prefect]

I used leverage bars before I bought clubbells. I'd have to say they are basically the same thing. I didn't feel as comfortable doing the ballistic exercises with leverage bars as I did with CB's, but other than that, I don't see much of a difference. A set of bulldog collars helps negate that.

[FooFighter]

At my old wing chun school, sifu Allan Lee had iron leverage bars of different widths, lengths, and weights and it was very effective for forearm and hand conditoning. While I agree that leverage bars are great inexpensive equipments. However they are not the best tool for CST exercises. I can not imagine doing some of the ballistic exercises using the leverage bars I used while studying at Allan Lee's academy.

[Chief Fox]

Chief Fox,
...Out of my own curiousity, may I ask how long have you worked with your make shift clubbells? What is your opinion on Clubbell training? And is this type of equipment benficial to you?

I've worked with my homemade clubbells for a month now. Probably twice a week. I do 2 sets of 4 exercises. I enjoy it very much and it has improved the stability of my shoulders. I had (and still have) some rotator cuff issues and wasn't even sure if I would be able to use a clubbell. Fortunately I was able to do the training and see strength/stability gains.

[FooFighter]

I've worked with my homemade clubbells for a month now. Probably twice a week. I do 2 sets of 4 exercises. I enjoy it very much and it has improved the stability of my shoulders. I had (and still have) some rotator cuff issues and wasn't even sure if I would be able to use a clubbell. Fortunately I was able to do the training and see strength/stability gains.

Chief,

I am sorry to hear about your shoulder problem and maybe you should go see a sport doctor. I believe it would be in your best interest and you dont want any future chronic problem later in your life or in your training. Personally I have indirectly injuired up my right shoulder from weight training, western boxing, wing chun, and unfortunately not too long ago from a grappling session at Sambo. However I have done rehab, used traditional chinese sport medicine treatments, and have exercise common sense. I hope you will recover soon and glad to see you have benefit from clubbell training. If you any questions about CST, I am more than happy to help in any way.

[Chief Fox]

Chief,

I am sorry to hear about your shoulder problem and maybe you should go see a sport doctor. I believe it would be in your best interest and you dont want any future chronic problem later in your life or in your training. Personally I have indirectly injuired up my right shoulder from weight training, western boxing, wing chun, and unfortunately not too long ago from a grappling session at Sambo. However I have done rehab, used traditional chinese sport medicine treatments, and have exercise common sense. I hope you will recover soon and glad to see you have benefit from clubbell training. If you any questions about CST, I am more than happy to help in any way.

I have seen a couple doctors and there is no damage. I then went and got some ART therapy and this worked wonders for the shoulder. I'm on the road back to 100% but it is a long road. I've found that the clubbell work as well as swimming has helped in my recovery. Thanks for the concern. I was thinking about picking up Clubbell® Training For Circular Strength (the book) any rocommendations?

[FooFighter]

Chief,

You can get the CST book if you want to understand the whole history, training theory, and periodization methodology behind Clubbell training as well as explain its difference from other leverage equipments. I would recommend it if you're the brainy type who like details and principles. However if you are trying to save $$$ and arent much into reading and just want to learn the exercises and see ideal forms, then get the CST DVD instead. I hope this helps. By the way, it would ideal to have CST book and the DVD. LOL. I am almost close to my goal of doing a 100 reps (density program) of performance swipe and once I accomplish that goal. I shall challenge myself with Clubbell 45 bruiser and plan on developing my own program called TRINITY program. I think I can accomplish this 100 reps mark by next week, but I think it would be wise for me to rest up for my CST certification next week in Bellingham.

[fa_jing]

as far as doing higher-volume squats first being counterproductive, i'm just thinking that any fatigue that occurs before i dead simply means i won't be able to pull as much. a lack of pulling power means weaker gains, both in amount i can pull, as well as lessened improvement in other areas (like me traps, joints, etc.). it just seems to make more sense to do the low-volume work like 2x5 deads first, then go on to higher-volume stuff like 5x5 squats. that's why i dead first, and why i'm hesitant to switch that up.

Congratulations RTB. If you are squatting and deadlifting the same day than I wouldn't do 5 x 5 for either one. I would think that you could do 3 x 5 squats then 2 x 5 deadlifts. My theory is that you could get the same overall effect of lifting a heavier weight by lifting a lighter weight in a pre-fatigued state. Neurologically this may not be the ideal way to train for a max lift, so pulling first 2-4 times a month should keep you used to handling a heavy weight in your hands.

[Toby]

Rub, I do PTP in the mornings and twice a week a forearm workout at night. I do experience some fatigue, but I do a light forearm workout early in the week and a heavy one on Friday. I don't do PTP on the weekends, but my grip is definitely fried on Saturday mornings. Choosing the days like I do means my lifts aren't affected.

[Mo Lung]

Mo Lung, I am sorry if you were offended by the post, but I was being frank. If what I wrote was not true, then I am wrong. However if I wrote was was true, then I am being honest. I know many people who make their own products due to economicall reasons. Now if I was poor or cheap which I was back in my college days, then I would no doubt make my own make shift exercise tools. But make no mistake, you can make your own beers, sodas, or whatever but it will never be the same quality as the original. Perssonally, I am not against home-made clubbells, but if you want to go deeper, heavier, and have safe CST workout, then it would be "ideal" to have the real thing. Ford, is right Sonnon had recommended a make shift clubbell for those who could not afford it and maybe he deleted the intel on how to make one because of economical gain? I dont know, but it is a business and he aint selling crap in my opinion when it comes to clubbells.I wasn't offended because the post wasn't directed at me. I just pointed out that it was offensive to call someone cheap when you know nothing about them.

As for homemade clubbells, if you want to try out the exercises and see if it's something that might work for you, why not knock something up at home and give it a try? Just load up one end of a dumbbell for example. You shouldn't have to spend a heap of cash every thime you want to try something new. Then invest if you like the concept and want to take it further. Or just carry on with your one ended dumbbelss if they're working for you.