a common misconception

[red5angel]

Is there anyone here who believs that forms alone will get them ready for fighting in any form?


I've read not one but two comments in the last two days about guys who think forms training is all there is. This has also circulatd through the forum a few times in the years I've been here.

I can't recall meeting anyone who believes forms alone will will carry you througha real fight or a competition. Anyone else?

I know some of the really traditional guys, or more likely the guys who are new to the martial arts thing can sometimes put more stock into the concept fo forms training but I'm curious if anyone really believes that there are people out there who believe forms are enough?

[Reggie1]

I'm curious if anyone really believes that there are people out there who believe forms are enough?

I think that there are people out there who still believe that.

I'm just not one of them.

[PangQuan]

Those guys are idiots. Forms alone for many years will get you ready to fight a sissy b!tch, thats about it. If you never hit a bag, or a moving person, you will bounce off the first thing you try to hit.

[SevenStar]

I recently had a big debate with plenty of them on another forum.

[red5angel]

I'm just saying, as far as I can remember, even on this forum, I've never met anyone who claimed forms alone was enough. Have you guys?

[PangQuan]

I recently had a big debate with plenty of them on another forum.

Send em to this forum, we will tell them how it is.

[red5angel]

what forum was that, out of curiosity?

[jmd161]

Well, You do actually have ppl out there that believe that.

Most adhere to the more forms the better concept. In reality they're nothing more than forms collectors.

jeff:)

[joedoe]

I believe in it.

But then I believe in Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy too. :D

[WinterPalm]

I don't believe at all that Traditional means only forms. That would be ridiculous. I think that the form of art you are practicing is very important and I think that practicing the forms a lot is very important. There are many different types of forms and some are not meant for fighting but for personal cultivation, conditioning, and honing a martial art skill.
I don't think it is appropriate to say that traditional means 'only' forms. The traditional people that I have met are all very interested in forms but also very serious about fighting and actual combat application.
Otherwise you've got yourself a dance school!

[PangQuan]

Forms are very important, but not the entire world. They give you the oportunity to practice a multitude of techniques from many different postures, and help develop your stabilizer muscles, which will highly improve your balance. You also get better at ambidextrious movement. There is a very long list as to what forms do for you physically and mentally. But nothing in any form can do what kicking a heavy bag 100 times will do for you. It is simple logic.

[yenhoi]

What do you mean by ready for fighting?

:confused:

[yenhoi]

... and what do you mean by forms alone?

:confused:

[Liokault]

Indeed,

Another common missconception is that techniques that are hidden in the form, once discovered suddenly become viable, with no further training. Like you dont need to drill or pressure test a move before you own in.

[Starchaser107]

hmnn.

first of all. I don't believe forms alone can get people ready for fighting anything more than thier shadows, and frightening non martial people who don't know any better.


that being said.

what do you think about two person sets?
if one practices multiple two partner or 3 partner sets , do you think that will assist one in getting ready for actual random combat?

just throwing that out there.

[Shaolinlueb]

forms have a purpose and they have a purpose when it comes to fighting. teaching you to be a fighter is not one of them.

[SevenStar]

what forum was that, out of curiosity?

karateforums

[web777]

what do you think about two person sets?
if one practices multiple two partner or 3 partner sets , do you think that will assist one in getting ready for actual random combat?

just throwing that out there.

Good question! I think 2 man forms help considerably. You learn timing and space against different size opponents. But it's still no supstitute for sparring.

[Becca]

I'm just saying, as far as I can remember, even on this forum, I've never met anyone who claimed forms alone was enough. Have you guys?
Yes. My cousin's wife. :rolleyes: She studies karate. She does do some point sparring, too, but her "skills" look like they would be more at home in a gymnastics compatition.

[Becca]

hmnn.

first of all. I don't believe forms alone can get people ready for fighting anything more than thier shadows, and frightening non martial people who don't know any better.


that being said.

what do you think about two person sets?
if one practices multiple two partner or 3 partner sets , do you think that will assist one in getting ready for actual random combat?

just throwing that out there.
No, I don't think you get any closer with two person sets, as most all form are two person sets, even if you've never practiced it that way. That is how you learn the application of the technique. You attack, I defend. You do this, so I do that. You counter with this, I block counter and do something else. This is what forms are: a kinisthetic learning system akin to books. Rather than memorizing written words you are memorizing postures and sets in line.

Memorizing techniques isn't going to enable you to use them. That's like trying to dive Nascar because you once took a driver's ed class and have read all about the cars and drivers. :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

Yenhoi - That's sort of the question isn't it. I see pretty regularly comments about "people who think forms is the end all to be all" or "they think you can learn to fight/defend yourself without sparring" I'm just curious who these people are? My assumption would be people under 15, and those with less then three months of martial arts experience.

[hasayfu]

Memorizing techniques isn't going to enable you to use them. That's like trying to dive Nascar because you once took a driver's ed class and have read all about the cars and drivers. :rolleyes:

First, I am NOT a forms will teach you fighting advocate. To learn to fight, you need to fight. period.

That said, NASCAR is an interesting analogy. Racing is like fighting. Lots of stuff can happen in a race. On the otherhand, racers spend LOTS of time running the tracks solo. This is similar to forms. Working the movements in the ideal situation.

[PangQuan]

I learned to fight before I ever began my studies of CMA. Wanna know how? I got in fights. Yep thats right, never had done a form in my life, never even thought about doing them. But now that I have been studying kung fu for a while, being one who understood the principles of fighting beforehand, I most deffinately see the benefit of forms. I like the NASCAR analogy. Thats just how it is, you get comfortable doing the movements in a no stress relaxed invironment, (meaning a yelling sifu is less stress than an angry opponent on the streets) in turn giving your muscle memory a little help when you reach the real deal.

There is no substitution for sparring/fighting. The energy present in a constantly moving and adapting opponent CANNOT be simulated in solo work.

[Jhapa]

First, I am NOT a forms will teach you fighting advocate. To learn to fight, you need to fight. period.

That said, NASCAR is an interesting analogy. Racing is like fighting. Lots of stuff can happen in a race. On the otherhand, racers spend LOTS of time running the tracks solo. This is similar to forms. Working the movements in the ideal situation.

how hard is to go in cirlcles. :D

i think the forms only teaches you the movements, to really appreciate the form and to see and use it in action, you have to spar and make it your own, not everybody is going to throw, kick the same way.

[yenhoi]

I dont see any reason why someone couldent take a "form" and train it solo, with partners as a set, with partners but not as a set, solo as conditioning, with partners as conditioning, etc.

What would a cage-fighters form contain?

:confused:

[yenhoi]

my cage-fighters would train this form everyday, with and without partners. Left and right sides.

sprawl
shoot
breakfall
bridge
roll to standing
jab
cross
hook
uppercut
overhand
shovel
hip toss from grip # 1
reap from grip # 2
footsweep from grip # 3
single from grip # 4
double from grip # 5
etc

So is this a forms vs sparring thread afterall?

:confused:

[Becca]

First, I am NOT a forms will teach you fighting advocate. To learn to fight, you need to fight. period.

That said, NASCAR is an interesting analogy. Racing is like fighting. Lots of stuff can happen in a race. On the otherhand, racers spend LOTS of time running the tracks solo. This is similar to forms. Working the movements in the ideal situation.
Yep. I liked that analogy because you never see a pro Nascar driver who didn't run a bajillion little heats before trying to use these skills in the real thing. They know they have got to get out there and race to be any good at racing. :)

[DRleungjan]

Hi all,

I've been hearing about the forms issue for years....it's so interesting how certain topics never die. Nonetheless, as an enthusiast I find these discissions always to be of interest. So, I'll put my two little cents if you all don't mind.....this is what I think of forms. I view them as the set of encyclopedias I have at home. Forms are great when it comes for one to learn the essence of any art *provided that there is diligent practice*. Just like an encyclopedia, you can read from cover to cover (which I think anyone rarely does anyway LOL) or you can go concentrating on one topic until you absorb everything that you need to absorb (which is the most logical way of going about it...but that's just my opinion) Even when one attains a certain level of proficiency one can always go back (like going thru an encyclopedia) and dissect the forms and always find something new in them (this is the research part).

Like the Bruce Lee quote goes.....'Wishing is not enough, one must do; knowing is not enough, one must apply' (I hope I got that one right). So yes, forms alone just won't do....you must put into practice what you have learned in order to see if it works for you or not. That would mean going from solo practice to 2-man sets and eventually to sparring (that's were experimentation comes in), which is very essential for one to attain mastery of any given system. Just my humble opinion.

[SanSoo Student]

Forms are good as a sort of review, the sets of movements you do should act like a basic cliffs notes version to the hits/locks/kicks you learned in actually class. You read the cliff notes to get the big picture, and when your practicing the small sections in detail you won't get completely lost.

As for being ready to fight, the person that read the real book (sparring and practicing all the sections) will have more in depth understanding of his material. The person that just reads cliff notes can appear to be able to fight at the same degree as the other guy, but in the end some of those small details missing from experience or studious analysis of the Art will make him F**k up and lose.

[red5angel]

I'm not contending that forms have their place, I just think it's really bizarre someone would believe that is all the training they need.

[Royal Dragon]

Personally, I believe doing the techniques out of the form in pre arragned two man sets, light sparring and progressing to full contact against resisting opponents IS learning and mastering the form. To do anything less is just covering the surface, and not truely learning the form a all.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i think of forms like a book. nothing more.

you can read all you want about swimmng and still drown.