Liu He Praying Mantis

[Blacktiger]

Hi all

Does anyone here train in this style of Mantis ? :)

[Three Harmonies]

I do a bit.
Jake :D

[Blacktiger]

Ok cool I just wondered how wide spread it was in the states etc.

:)

[Three Harmonies]

VERY RARE throughout the world. My teacher (Hu Xi Lin) is one of the few that teaches it openly. Actually he is the ONLY one I know of that does!
Wu Tan guys know Liuhe, but I have never seen any of them teach any of it openly. Most of the time you have to be a disciple. My kung fu uncle Ilya Profatilov requires you to be a disciple. Other than that....do not know of many.
I have HEARD in China their are only a few that know the system completely, but I have HEARD that just about none of them know how to use it properly.

Jake :D

[Blacktiger]

Hey there Jake,

Check my post on Great mantis masters, we are lucky get it from Grand Master Liu Jing Ru in China. We have the whole system, 7 forms in all.

And man its so mean its all just attack.

I study Liu He Zi Ran Men and when we finish all the Liu He stuff we move onto Liu He mantis.
If it was not for our Master being friends with the Grandmaster we would not have it, very lucky :)

[Blacktiger]

Hey Jake here is some more info on the Grandmaster for you. :)

http://www.liujingru.com/photo.htm

[BeiTangLang]

What is the dominating aspect / point of focus / signature quality (ies) that make Liu He distinctive?

[Blacktiger]

Ok here are a few things that jump out straight away when looking at Liu He Mantis:

The stances are about 70/30 and are not as low as the other Mantis styles as the Master of this system took out all the monkey stepping as he thought it was not practical for fighting....Thats the most obvious thing you will see.
He did this after he had learnt Seven Stars etc.
The other thing is that is is purely for fighting everything is flat out attack.
Grandmaster Liu Jing Ru was saying that if you want to attack or fight you use this, the style comes from Shandong Province.

:D

[Laviathan]

What is the dominating aspect / point of focus / signature quality (ies) that make Liu He distinctive?

I'll give it a try:

The form of Six Harmony Mantis almost appears to be a blend of two systems: its footwork looks like Xingyi, while its arm movements resemble Tongbei. Within the Liuhe Tanglang system, there is a saying about the footwork: "Yi bu deng shan, er bu qi ma" (Firstly, we do not climb mountains; secondly, we do not ride horses), meaning that Liuhe stylists rarely if ever use the Dengshanbu (Climbing Mountain or Bow Stance) or the Horse stance. Instead, the Siliubu (60/40 stance) is used predominantly. Furthermore, the long arm techniques of Liuhe resemble the movements of an ape, so that's why the style was also called Yuanhou Tanglang (Gibbon Style Mantis) in the past. The famous Mantis hook (goushou) is rarely used, unlike other Mantis styles.

Also, Liuhe differs from other styles of Mantis in its unique approach of fighting: while most Mantis styles place emphasis on evading and agility, Six Harmony uses frontal attack. If we refer to other Mantis styles as swift guerrilla warfare, than compared to them, Liuhe is like a tank slowly crushing its enemies. There's actually no real defending techniques within Liuhe: attack is the best defence. The Liuhe stylist generates a very thick, heavy repelling power with his body, and he relies on this power as his defence. Six Harmony Praying Mantis is a wonderful martial art, extremely powerful and difficult to learn.

Just my 2 cents.

[Three Harmonies]

Laviathan pretty much hit the nail on the head! The only thing I would add is chan si jin is most prevelant in this system, more so than I have seen in other systems. Constant circles. Their is no start or beginning to any move, they all blend together one after another!
Oh.......... and yes it is EXTREMELY difficult to learn!

Jake :D

[xingyiman]

Ok I'll ask the million dollar question: Is there any good video clip demonstrations of the style on the internet??

[Blacktiger]

Ok here is a little more:

The special characteristic of this school
is its use of continuous vertical (and sometimes horizontal)
circles which permit either striking, trapping or defending.

The fast vertical 'running hands' allow a range of offensive and
defensive techniques. Arm strikes to the opponent can use the edge
of the hand or the forearm. If the opponent blocks or parries, the
leading (circling) hand may grab while the other continues the attack.

This vertical circle, combined with advancing steps, provides speed and
Jin (power). Horizontal circling hands make use of the edge of the
palm or the wrist.

Lots of fun trying stop someone who knows what they are doing with this stuff :)

:D

[Laviathan]

Ok I'll ask the million dollar question: Is there any good video clip demonstrations of the style on the internet??

This is the only one I know of:

Mr. Zhang Daojin from Yantai: Liuhe Tanglang Demo (http://www.mantismartialart.com/sixhmydemo.wmv)

[RAF]

http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/index.html

No direct link:

video gallary---->Old Footage of WuTang Martial Arts

Into the film, you will see a fellow with black glasses playing, Master Zhai.

First performance, is Fen Shen Ba Zhou, Da Fan Sha and then the Liuhe ckip.

You should see a closeness in form and flavor to the above clip.

The clip on the Wutang site is from a TV appearance in the 1970s in Taipei, Taiwan.

There are a lot of auxilliary training exercises needed to develop the forearms and hands. The first form we learn is Liuhe duan Chui which is technically not mantis but 6 harmony. Some of the movmeents found in the previous clip are trained in place and the with movment. I've learned a few. They are supposed to be played soft, relaxed and the movement should be smooth like a long flowing river.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Ok here is a little more:

The special characteristic of this school
is its use of continuous vertical (and sometimes horizontal)
circles which permit either striking, trapping or defending.

The fast vertical 'running hands' allow a range of offensive and
defensive techniques. Arm strikes to the opponent can use the edge
of the hand or the forearm. If the opponent blocks or parries, the
leading (circling) hand may grab while the other continues the attack.

This vertical circle, combined with advancing steps, provides speed and
Jin (power). Horizontal circling hands make use of the edge of the
palm or the wrist.

Lots of fun trying stop someone who knows what they are doing with this stuff :)

:D

from what i've seen if you combine yin-yang hands (the opening crossover from tai chi) with silk reeling and water wheel techniques in large and small circles combined with medium terrestial hieght stances with about 1/3rd of the movements having lower stances and lots of upward facing willow palm wheels and crane wings. transitions between moves are made by a circle block and or twist of the hips.

86 bucks will get you more video of mantis than you can learn in a lifetime!

[BeiTangLang]

Save the $86 & use it on a Master Hu seminar....the money will be much better spent :D

(One of the mot amazing people I've ever met)

[Blacktiger]

Yep I could not agree more-trying to learn this stuff off video would be a nightmare, your not going to get the feel for it like that or the applications.........Pause rewind pause rewind :D

[Shadowboxer]

Jake,

I could send you some clips from the seminars this weekend to put up if you like. Send me a PM. I've been watching the Master Hu footage in slow motion. One word--SWEET!!

:D

[Three Harmonies]

Shadowboxer,
HA! I say again HA! :D You saw my camera. You heard the **** I got. I have NO CLUE how to post vids on the net :confused:
But I give you full permission to share a couple (please do not get too carried away). I have been waiting for one of you guys to mention it. Hu Laoshi is cool with it all. Give folks a taste if you would not mind please.
For those who will be in Germany, these clips will be similar to what you will learn....just coming from me....so a lot slower, and not quite as smooth (I have white mans disease: can't run / jump etc. :p ). Thanks.

Learning Liuhe from a video is totally useless. The small little intricacies(?) are so subtle you can barely get them when directly taught (as most will attest too that went to Sundays seminar!). I have dabbled in many different arts over the past 14 years, and I can honestly say Liuhe Tanglang is hands down the most difficult art to learn (hence not many teaching it). And martial arts usually come rather easy to me learning wise! Great effective stuff, but very difficult to do. The forms are pretty easy though.

Cheers
Jake

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

my lilingpi instructor only showed the forms he taught us once per student. we had to learn from watching him do it in our memories to pass the test or secretly meet other students and practice together. i think i can learn your forms from video without too much difficulty.


i figure the average student can spend 90 bucks on two months of instruction or the same on a video library and probably come out ahead with the library. after they finish a vid form or set of forms then go to an instructor and have him refine your technique.

liu he mantis resembles hop gar that i've seen. i have a liu he vid but was not that impressed with the forms. there was one worth learning: the 36 elbows form, and augmenting it with only two other techniques from the six other forms on the disc. Yes, it is good compared to a lot of things but Mei hua mantis i think is more advanced in its inclusion of other stylistic elements. and more deserving of my effort.

the good thing about a vid library is you might never catch that nuance with an instructor but with the vid you can rewind and see it as many times as is neccessary to get it right.

and if you can't figure out the applications you probably shouldn't be studying martial arts...perhaps gunsmithing.

[BeiTangLang]

Everyone has their thoughts for sure.

From last weekends expreience, I can easily say that the applications Master Hu showed (at least the ones he demo'd) _must_ be learned hands on. One technique thats sticks in my mind the most, the did 3 times in a row tossing the assitant student to the ground. I still didn't pick up how he did it by watching....& I am no slouch at picking up movements either.
Best of luck in picking that one out of a form.

I am a WHF student, but I must say that LHPM has piqued my curiosity, thought process and made me look a little more at what my own mantis holds that I have not yet learned.

MTV is cool, but nothing rocks you like a concert. :)

[Blacktiger]

Look all I can say is that if you think you know what Liu He Mantis is about from checking out a video or 3 and trying to pick the bits out that you think are the best your not going to get very far.... And will have no real understanding of the art at all


The most important thing about learning this style is that it has to be felt. Learning to get the power generation from the waist or Dan Tien with the techniques and applications is very tricky....You really need to learn this in the flesh with a teacher and then go run drills with all the applications with your class mates.

Looking at some of these techniques from a video would give you no clue what so ever of where the power/mechanics are coming from. As BeiTangLang said he saw a technique three times right in front of him and he still could not pick up how the move was executed.
This style is sooo fast and very powerful once you have got it all down. I would like to see someone who has learned from video go up against another who has trained in the flesh.
My guess is the video guy would be all arms flying round with brute force all over the place. Where as when you actually train this stuff with a teacher you discover its all internal-arms like big dead weights! You aint gonna get those liitle gems from learning Beta Max Fu - your in dream land in your lounge room :D

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

I am a WHF student,

MTV is cool, but nothing rocks you like a concert. :)

WHF as Wai Hung Fot? concerts are cool until you miss something when you go to the bathroom...

ask tai yim sifu, hung fot sigung, which mantis style would be a better challenge for you.

[BeiTangLang]

WHF as Wai Hung Fot?. No.



concerts are cool until you miss something when you go to the bathroom.... We must not go to the same kinds of concerts.


ask tai yim sifu, hung fot sigung, which mantis style would be a better challenge for you. Don't know who they are, but I train in what I think is bes, Not what someone else thinks is the most challenging.


From last weekends expreience, I can easily say that the applications Master Hu showed (at least the ones he demo'd) _must_ be learned hands on. One technique thats sticks in my mind the most, the did 3 times in a row tossing the assitant student to the ground. I still didn't pick up how he did it by watching....& I am no slouch at picking up movements either.
Best of luck in picking that one out of a form.

[Blacktiger]

QUOTE
"if you didn't learn basic power generation from stance use in your beginning years learning it at your advanced intermediate years basically forces you to relearn your martial kinesthetics. it may be your style's way of keeping students over the long period."

Sorry but this in not basic power generation and I have assumed when stating some facts on this style that people already have an understanding of this. But I do agree that if that skill is not learned in the early years its difficult to pick up later.

Look I have no idea what you have trained in but 10 out of 10 punters who start this and who think they have their waist down are blown away with how much more power is availalbe with this style.

All in all you dont have to go to the Grandmaster I assume your talking about Liu Jing Ru and he is not the linage holder of this system but studied with one of the early founders- Shan Xiang Ling.....From what I have heard from Jake at Three Harmonies and everyone on the boards they teach great stuff...Check it out as there are not many people teaching this round the world.

[Three Harmonies]

YZDZ
You have some strange ideas. Liuhe looks nothing like any of the Hop gar I have seen. I am not sure you are talking about the same Liuhe TANGLANG. As for Meihua being better...matter of opinion I suppose. If one can master the Liuhe fighting I cannot see much getting in the way.
Jake

[Blacktiger]

Word :D

Quote
"most of the vids i have are of supposedly intermediate forms. that is the reference point i use to judge a style because that's where serious students and style mechanics are developed/introduced"

This is the other thing- What intermediate forms :confused: there are no intermediate forms you must learn them all, there are only 7 in all including weapons.
If you dont get the first one your not going to get 2,3,4 etc etc...Its like walking in half way through a concert and saying you know whats going on.

What type of videos do you have and who is demonstrating :confused:

And yes you do have some very strange ideas :D

[Paul_E]

How does iron palm fit into the liu he tang land system? The practioners here mentioned that power comes from the dantien, so does iron give you that little extra topping or is it a major part of the applications?

[shirkers1]

YZDZ I'm from Wong Hon Fun lineage, HK 7*.... The master Hu seminar was held at my teachers school in akron this past weekend. I can tell you first hand that what you see performed in the forms is something completely different than applied fighting tactics. Master Hu did a great job at showing the difference between the two. The fighting applications were close in the way we think although we apply them with different body energy. So we could see what master hu was getting at... With that said a lot of the HK 7 * sets what you are seeing is pretty straight forward and the average person can pick up on at least one of the apps. But the liu sets it's pretty hidden if you don't train in that style... and it seems like a lot of the individual movements have multiple apps from the feet to the arms. So if you want to pick it up from the vid get on it chief.. but sorry about your luck if you think you're going to even scrape the surface of what is actually there.

I agree with jake and I think you have no clue what liuhe is, but if you keep it up I have a feeling you will find out soon enough. By the way different styles have different ways of power generation.... Ours comes from our footwork, through the whole body. Hey jake let me know when this cat comes to work out with you, I'd like to drive out and partake in the viewing!

I know jake would love to have you come work out, learn, whatever with him. He's a great guy and can get his point across in more than one way so you won't be wasting your time. But I tell you what, you won't be wasting your time or money if you attend a master hu seminar period..... "who's master hu"? is the question we were asking ourselves before the seminar "we found master hu"..... is what we were saying after, and he IS the real deal..


PAUL E From what I saw at the seminar, master hu loves open hand strikes so I would say hell yes iron palm would make a big difference.

[Shadowboxer]

Mark,

Would you be able/willing to host some clips of Master Hu? This seems to be the easiest solution. I'm working on clips already so it won't take long to get them up. Let me know what you think.

Chad

[shirkers1]

Hey chad, yes if I can... :D

I tried to send you a pm earlier but your box is full.

mark

[Shadowboxer]

I'll check my box.

[Shadowboxer]

Box is clear.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

YZDZ I'm from Wong Hon Fun lineage, HK 7*.... The master Hu seminar was held at my teachers school in akron this past weekend. I can tell you first hand that what you see performed in the forms is something completely different than applied fighting tactics. Master Hu did a great job at showing the difference between the two. The fighting applications were close in the way we think although we apply them with different body energy. So we could see what master hu was getting at... With that said a lot of the HK 7 * sets what you are seeing is pretty straight forward and the average person can pick up on at least one of the apps. But the liu sets it's pretty hidden if you don't train in that style... and it seems like a lot of the individual movements have multiple apps from the feet to the arms. So if you want to pick it up from the vid get on it chief.. but sorry about your luck if you think you're going to even scrape the surface of what is actually there.

I agree with jake and I think you have no clue what liuhe is, but if you keep it up I have a feeling you will find out soon enough. By the way different styles have different ways of power generation.... Ours comes from our footwork, through the whole body. Hey jake let me know when this cat comes to work out with you, I'd like to drive out and partake in the viewing!

I know jake would love to have you come work out, learn, whatever with him. He's a great guy and can get his point across in more than one way so you won't be wasting your time. But I tell you what, you won't be wasting your time or money if you attend a master hu seminar period..... "who's master hu"? is the question we were asking ourselves before the seminar "we found master hu"..... is what we were saying after, and he IS the real deal..


PAUL E From what I saw at the seminar, master hu loves open hand strikes so I would say hell yes iron palm would make a big difference.

the vids i have show some slight power generation from that kind of movement. does it seem to you to be like digging the balls of your feet into the ground as you leverage into your opponent especially with initially strange seeming vectors? 'cause that's what my vids look like. some people call this good grounding technique. other styles use this grounding combined with good stancework to generate massive hip centered power for hand and foot techniques. even with extra penetration comming from better positioning of the feet or even changing the foot holds as you move.

i'm not saying its not a good style compared to a lot of what's out there.

the hop gar i've seen does this technique for power generation, too. just my experience. but i guess if all you knew based on what you saw was what you could see -regaurdless of what else you knew- as an intermediate student would your view be any different? what if you looked at it with what you know about other arts or even other styles of similar arts?
is Hu sifu the one who has produced all the vids for this style? my vids are from china and in chinese.

please don't take this next comment personal but less emotionally controlled people will probably take offense to it: i used to think that all the ego blazed martial arts came from wah lum or derived mantis arts, but i'm starting to see a lot of it in other northern arts too. for y'all to assume that someone cannot possibly know how you generate power from looking at someone do it (and possibly commenting from different vid sources) i really don't see how you can say that someone can't learn your style from a video. i mean you saw someone do it at a demonstration and learned it merely from watching in that format. is it just your marketing platform? are you from a shepardising religious background that suggests the only real learning can occur from a sheppard-sheep relationship? what is it specifically that makes you as sifu so positive that a person can't see what you are talking about without the same experiential learning?

perhaps i'm just unique in the way i look at arts as they are being performed....-?-

instead of seeing only what's being presented i automatically include things that would make it better from my previous experience?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

furthermore:

the sifu whom made my vids is: Zhang Dao Jing, 7th generation sifu, VP of Yen Tai WuShu Assoc. Student of Zhang Xiansan. Student of Ding Zicheng. Student of Lin Shi Chun.

there are 6 mantis routines; 1 liu he mantis Duan Chui; a tan tui like routine called tuan chui; plus some 7star mantis forms done in the 6 harmaony style; the seven core routines are: Jie Shou Chuan; Tie Ci; XianShou Ben; Shuang Feng; Tuan CHui; Zhao Mein Deng; Tsang Hua.

[Lu Bu]

YuanZhideDiZhen-

" i really don't see how you can say that someone can't learn your style from a video."

Forms are one thing. Depending on the complexity of the information being presented, if you are a reasonably intelligent, talented, and/or experienced person, you could probably pick up the forms of a given style. However, take this from one of the people being thrown around that weekend: you would NOT learn this style from watching forms. Why? Not because of a lack of ability/intellect/whatever, but because there is far, far more to a complete style of martial arts than just learning forms. And, as far as Liuhe Tanglang goes, if you could figure out ALL the applications that were being shown out of the first four or so moves of the form, you should be given some kind of medal, or something. It's not a style you could say, "Oh you do this this and this because the guy doing the form is doing that", there is much more to it all. Applications are (more times than you might think) often hidden in gongfu. Just because it may seem obvious doesn't mean it is.

As for the power generation, personally, I have only seen Hu Laoshi and one other person (from a vcd) move using Liuhe, and from that I don't think it looks like any of the Hop Gar I have seen. Hu Laoshi discussed the power primarily used in Liuhe, and he explained that it came primarily from the waist as it seems to in most styles of Chinese Martial Arts. However the Hop Gar you've seen and the Liuhe you've seen can be different from what I have seen. I certainly haven't seen it all (or probably even 10% of it all, there's really a lot of stuff out there). No big deal. :)

[Laviathan]

please don't take this next comment personal but less emotionally controlled people will probably take offense to it: i used to think that all the ego blazed martial arts came from wah lum or derived mantis arts, but i'm starting to see a lot of it in other northern arts too. for y'all to assume that someone cannot possibly know how you generate power from looking at someone do it (and possibly commenting from different vid sources) i really don't see how you can say that someone can't learn your style from a video. i mean you saw someone do it at a demonstration and learned it merely from watching in that format. is it just your marketing platform? are you from a shepardising religious background that suggests the only real learning can occur from a sheppard-sheep relationship? what is it specifically that makes you as sifu so positive that a person can't see what you are talking about without the same experiential learning?

perhaps i'm just unique in the way i look at arts as they are being performed....-?-

instead of seeing only what's being presented i automatically include things that would make it better from my previous experience?

I can't believe I'm actually responding to this post, but oh well, here it goes...

Firstly, no one says you can't learn a form from a vcd. Sure you can. If you're really good and experienced, you can also figure out how the power generation works IN THE FORM. If you're extremely talented you can also figure out all the fighting applications FROM THE FORM.

But does this mean you have actually learnt true Liuhe Mantis? Definitely NO.

But the fact is: you have not touch hands with a real teacher of the style, you haven't experienced/felt the flow, the power and the spirit which are applied in real-life training.

Secondly, you obviously feel that you are already at a level in the martial arts in which you merely have to watch vcd's in order to add moves to your arsenal of techniques. But hey, if you're really that good already, why do you need to "steal" techniques from others? If you're able to understand, acquire and apply these different types of powers, than it means that you are already formless. But obviously, you are not formless, 'cause you do watch and learn forms from VCD's... If you're so superior in the field of the martial arts, why do you even bother to learn all those "useless" forms?

Thirdly, OK let's assume you are REALLY that good. I'm sure everyone of us here on the Kungfu Magazine Forum would love to learn from you. Why don't you put some vids of your own up, to show your skills? Please enlighten us poor indoctrinated mortals.

Please note that I'm not saying that you are not unique. Of course you are. I am just a little bit skeptical about you being unique enough to master Liuhe Tanglang on your own with just a DVD-player as Sifu, that's all...

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

But hey, if you're really that good already, why do you need to "steal" techniques from others?
...


basically, most of your post revolves around this question.

simple: i saw some techniques that i thought were useful that i had not encountered previously. as stated a page ago.

i do not ascribe to any spiritual mumbo jumbo as applied to the fighting arts. fighting arts are anything but spiritual and philosophically enlightening. if you think they are i don't want you any where near people that would be my prospective students. if you end up as one of mine don't let me know about your attachments to form and unreality.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

with regaurds to the 'enlightened post' made by leviatan:

i certainly do not claim to know the system. however, i do claim to be able to understand and follow the conversation based on what i've been able to observe and what occurs in my own practice.

i do not come from a korean or japanese martial history and have a fair understanding of cma at large and power generation techniques. i studied three styles of medium length power (of which mei hua mantis is one) and two of long methods.

generally i enjoy discussing elements about your style with three harmonies because he generally is nonconfrontational in his appraoch to informing: a characteristic that is rare amongst mantis stylists. and one which i greatly appreciate in him.

from what i've been able to piece together about traditional stylists and sifu on this site is that there are only about six whom i would call traditional in thier thinking, training, outlook and perspective: and it shows. i'm not going to identify them 'cause i don't want to draw anymore attention to them than they already do themselves.

[Laviathan]

basically, most of your post revolves around this question.

No, my post consists of the following questions:

1. If you're really that good already, why do you need to "steal" techniques from others?

2. If you're so superior in the field of the martial arts, why do you even bother to learn all those "useless" forms?

3. Why don't you put some vids of your own up, to show your skills?


simple: i saw some techniques that i thought were useful that i had not encountered previously. as stated a page ago.

Yeah sure...


i do not ascribe to any spiritual mumbo jumbo as applied to the fighting arts. fighting arts are anything but spiritual and philosophically enlightening. if you think they are i don't want you any where near people that would be my prospective students. if you end up as one of mine don't let me know about your attachments to form and unreality.

Who is talking about "spiritual" and "philosophical" matters? What the heck are you talking about?

And where the hell did you get the idea that I would want to learn from you?

Anyway, I am sure you are extremely good in what you do, I am sure you are a high-level martial artist. I am just a very ignorant, low-level kid. So, keep up the good work. I'm outta here...

[Lu Bu]

YuanZhideDiZhen-

Geez, man. Just because you don't agree with or possibly understand something doesn't mean you have to trash it.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

YuanZhideDiZhen-

Geez, man. Just because you don't agree with or possibly understand something doesn't mean you have to trash it.

dude, you have completely missed what i said. i'm sorry that i assumed i could have an intelligent discussion with the two of you... :mad:

[Laviathan]

dude, you have completely missed what i said. i'm sorry that i assumed i could have an intelligent discussion with the two of you... :mad:

Oh really? No kiddin'... You know what? The discussion might have actually been an intelligent one if it wasn't for you behaving like a pompous ass all the time.

People here only commented on how they are skeptical about you learning Liuhe Tanglang from vcd's, no one was being unpleasant about it, we were just trying to have an intelligent conversation.

Yet you started ranting about "less emotionally controlled people will probably take offense to it: i used to think that all the ego blazed martial arts came from wah lum or derived mantis arts, but i'm starting to see a lot of it in other northern arts too... is it just your marketing platform? are you from a shepardising religious background that suggests the only real learning can occur from a sheppard-sheep relationship?"

I then tried to engage in normal conversation with you by asking you how you can train a style without actually experiencing/feeling the flow, the power and the SPIRIT (I did not mean SPIRITUAL, just fighting spirit) in real life teacher-student tutoring. I also asked you to "enlighten us poor indoctrinated mortals". I was obviously being sarcastic, but apparently you missed the wole point. Instead, you again went on ranting about something completely different:


i do not ascribe to any spiritual mumbo jumbo as applied to the fighting arts. fighting arts are anything but spiritual and philosophically enlightening. if you think they are i don't want you any where near people that would be my prospective students. if you end up as one of mine don't let me know about your attachments to form and unreality.

Which is followed by another rant. I am not even going there.

Your whole point is: you feel most mantis stylists in general or on the forum are arrogant. You feel you understand what they do, but they don't believe you, and you got a problem with that. You've got issues, and it really shows in your posts.

The only thing I would like to say is: get over it. Most of the forum members are sincere in sharing their knowledge, learning from each other and to engage in intelligent discussion. You give your views, and if you feel that some people are too narrowminded to understand your views, then that's their problem. I'd suggest you to leave these issues aside and just enjoy talking about Mantis Kungfu.

But hey, maybe I am completely off. And really, I am not interested in continueing this conversation, and obviously you feel I am too dumb to comprehend your ideas. Sorry if you feel that way. Bye.

[Laviathan]

Never mind, I read some "testimonials" about you here:How we feel about YuanZhideDiZhen (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35895&page=1&pp=15)

[BeiTangLang]

LOL! I see. He came here to spread b/s because evrywhere else already called him on it. The games up here too. I seriously hope that you _do not_ have students!

Anyway, back to the LH discussion (if there is any of it left). No Mas on troll-boy.