Good Comment from another Thread [Archive]

sihing

03-23-2005, 11:13 AM

Jim Roselando had a good quote from the "What's your goal" thread, "Ok! So, why not take two months off from your regular cardio training and then get on the matt and see if that sort of training is not essential to that art functioning or not."

I like this quote and because I believe that WC is not based on physical attributes like speed, strength, stamina, etc.. One skilled in WC could take whatever time off of cardio training and still function quite well. Since real fights don't last like boxing rounds, or shouldn't, due to the dangers of a prolonged engagement, one that has the skills through years of training will still be able to handle themselves well on the street. As Bruce Lee said, one will be able to do what is necessary when in a fight and the body will go until needed. Again the emphasize here is someone that has the skills, which means they have already gone through the years of training and have changed their bodies to adapt to the Wing Chun system, not people just using it as a hobby or people just starting out. I don't do cardio anymore myself and know that I couldn't last too long in a competition like boxing bout, the legs are not there for that, but due to rules and regulations, the goal of defeating the enemy takes longer. On the street there are no rules so therefore the vast array of weapons can be used, including anything available outside our own natural weapons, sticks, clubs, broken glass, etc...So I feel confident that I could defend myself and/or others if need be.

Cardio would help, don't get me wrong, but not all are willing to put the time in or can. Should we as WC practitioners/teachers turn people away from learning WC if they are not willing to participate in Cardio/Conditioning programs? No, is my response, and to do otherwise is against the original intention of the creation of WC IMO.

James

Knifefighter

03-23-2005, 12:20 PM

sihing

03-23-2005, 12:44 PM

When was the last time you got into a physical confrontation on the street with someone who was bigger or stronger than you? If you think you don't need cardio for that type of situation, you are a fool. If you are teaching that BS at your school, that is pure McDojo teaching.

Firstly, it's not my school, secondly what does that have to do with the thread?? Just so you know, out of the 3 main evening classes we have everyday, one of them is a cardio/conditioning workout, which includes all kinds of things and variations depending on who is instructing, and performing over 500 punches and 500 kicks on the mitts and bags in one session is the norm.

Now, if strength and size are the true factors in a fight, why aren't the wrestlers of WWF or the heavy weight power lifters not the best fighters in the world? Now, let's just get the meaning of what I said in my thread straight. I'm not talking about a couch potato, or someone that is so weak they can hardly do 10 pushups or 10 crunches, but a average person of average physical strength that is healthy, and has years of WC training behind them. Using me as an example, the only exercise I do is weight training, 3X a week, sometimes less depending on mood and schedule, and forms, stretching and wooden dummy work, and I'm no powerhouse naturally, but more of a runner type physic with some muscle on top. If you have viewed my clips, I haven't lost any speed since my training days ( but in your mind I may appear slow, you would be in the minority for that opinion), but I do not practice speed drills, so how is this possible. The skill has increased, just due to more experience with the Art and self discovery. Like I have said in earlier threads, I also believe that there are other ways of training, besides physically, but his is only achievable when the skills are already within one's possession, and not when learning them, although vivid visualization is a key learning tool when beginning something new.

I'm not guaranteeing anyone of anything, and I'm not saying cardio/conditioning is a bad thing, but is it a necessity for absolute success in a street fight? What about other elements like surprise, spirit, tactics, positioning, experience, etc... Dale, if you took 2 months off all physical training, would you really be unable to handle yourself in a streetfight, against someone bigger than you, but maybe not as skilled. Ernie has an injury and cannot participate in certain physical things, but has related how his sensitivity has increased and other skill attributes as well. Is skill obsolete now in fighting?? I don't think so, and if you do then your abilities will deteriorate as time goes by, due to the aging process..

James

Jim Roselando

03-23-2005, 02:49 PM

Hello James,

Thanks for moving this thread to have its own life!

Its a very sensative subject for many.

I believe Dave C said it nicely:

If you need cardio to fight with WCK then you are not doing WCK.

Thats not the same for other arts but I/we are talking about Rou arts/WCK.

Lets see how this thread takes off! Most likely, we will be the minority who think like this.

Peace,

AndrewS

03-23-2005, 03:01 PM

anerlich

03-23-2005, 03:21 PM

Jim asked me the question, and I responded to it on the other thread.

Basically, my experience in this regard reinforced my opinion on the value and necessity of keeping up your General Performance Preparation, including cardio training.

It would be really nice if things worked otherwise, but then we'd live in an imaginary universe.

anerlich

03-23-2005, 03:23 PM

we will be the minority who think like this

Probably. It could be because you are smarter or understand WC better than the rest, but it could also be because you are wrong.

anerlich

03-23-2005, 03:29 PM

why aren't the wrestlers of WWF or the heavy weight power lifters not the best fighters in the world?

Gene LeBell was a pro wrestler and is regarded that way by many.

Bad News Anderson was an Olympic Medallist in Judo, IIRC.

Ken Shamrock did some pro wrestling. Jeez, even Mike Tyson was mixed up with Vince McMahon (sp?) and that lot for a while.

As Andrew said, being able to shift heavy objects is a useful attribute for a fighter, but not the only one.

You seem to feel strongly about this, James.

But you say cardio training is non essential, but then your academy runs a classful of it every night of the week. Not exactly a basis for credibility. Or are you just catering to the delusions of the unenlightened masses to get punters through the door?

Why not shut your cardio class down for the two months then, huh? Put your money where your mouth is and all that ...

YungChun

03-23-2005, 06:28 PM

Cardio is a necessary part of life in general. To suggest that cardio is not an essential part of any physical activity or sport, especially one that involves combat is just nuts.

Ever get into a real fight? Ever feel the strength run out of your body? Ever think of dealing with more than one opponent? Ever think you might need to run, climb, jump, fight while injured to save your life? Ever get tired in chi sao / sparring while the other guy is just getting warmed up?

WCK not relying on great strength is one thing. There is, however, no Wing Chun that does not rely on your heart pumping oxygen to your body to keep you going in combat. If your out of shape then you better hope that you can end the 'fight' in less than 5 seconds because that's all you'll have and in the street it often won't be enough. Bad guys don't fight fair, walk up one at a time, let you rest in-between ‘bouts’, sip on your gator aid and challenge you in 20 minute intervals.

You can be the best Wing Chun artist in the world but if you run out of gas it won't matter in the least, you'll be DOA!

Knifefighter

03-23-2005, 06:35 PM

Can you beat an unskilled scrub if you are more skilled but have no conditioning? Yeah, maybe, sometimes. But being out of condition is just one less tool you have in your toolbox and means you have less of a chance of beating someone than if you were in better condtion. If you are training for self defense or figthing ability, it just makes sense to train in a system that gets you in shape as part of its training methodology.... not to mention the health benefits that come from high levels of cardiovascular and muscular fitness.

anerlich

03-23-2005, 08:39 PM

Dale,

this is a spinoff from the "What are your goals?" thread.

The argument being presented there (not by me, I hasten to add) is that cardio training is detrimental to health - as opposed to chi kung and wing chun, which some people seem to think have more than incidental commonalities for reasons I have yet to fathom.

So far they have been unable to successfully argue the case for these assertions on that thread IMO.

They also think cardio training, weight training, and they types of conditioning done for performance enhancement by participants in just about every other field of physical endeavour are counterproductive.

I disagreed, FWIW.

Matrix

03-23-2005, 08:44 PM

If you need cardio to fight with WCK then you are not doing WCK.

Thats not the same for other arts but I/we are talking about Rou arts/WCK. In a perfect world this may be true, but cardio and strength training can only be seen as a plus no matter what art you're training in, IMO. Besides, if you're outnumbered or outgunned, you may need to make a quick exit without running out of gas.

sihing

03-23-2005, 09:54 PM

James writes:

>Now, if strength and size are the true factors in a fight, why aren't the wrestlers of WWF or the heavy weight power lifters not the best fighters in the world?

Err, was there some logic in there?

If Lesnar goes MMA, expect a homicide or two. Heavyweight powerlifters? Umm, powerlifting is the sport of lifting a heavy thing once in three ways. Speed-strength, strength endurance, and speed-strength endurance aren't favored, nor is relative strength at the higher weight classes, which is an important determinant for agility, a useful skill in fighting.

Now if any of the WSM guys go MMA, be freakin' frightened.

Jim writes:

>believe Dave C said it nicely:

>If you need cardio to fight with WCK then you are not doing WCK.

Perhaps you should define cardio. I agree that one's mile and 10k times are probably irrelevant for fighting puposes, but the 50, 100, 400 or their temporal equivalents have some bearing on the matter.

Andrew

Andrew,
If the skill is the same then the one with greater strength or speed will have the advantage. You are larger than your instructor Boztepe, so what is it that makes him the better fighter? Skills maybe and his own strength and attributes? Skills are the great equalizer IMO, but a quality skilled big man will be a problem compared to a quality skilled little man, so I agree there. Thing is most big men have ego's just as big and therefore feel no need to learn something, that can be to the advantage of the smaller man. Chop them down like a tree they say....

James

sihing

03-23-2005, 10:19 PM

Gene LeBell was a pro wrestler and is regarded that way by many.

Bad News Anderson was an Olympic Medallist in Judo, IIRC.

Ken Shamrock did some pro wrestling. Jeez, even Mike Tyson was mixed up with Vince McMahon (sp?) and that lot for a while.

As Andrew said, being able to shift heavy objects is a useful attribute for a fighter, but not the only one.

You seem to feel strongly about this, James.

But you say cardio training is non essential, but then your academy runs a classful of it every night of the week. Not exactly a basis for credibility. Or are you just catering to the delusions of the unenlightened masses to get punters through the door?

Why not shut your cardio class down for the two months then, huh? Put your money where your mouth is and all that ...

Andrew,

The cardio class is for those that want to do it and to fill a need for the public, I choose not to participate so I am putting my money where my mouth is. :) I may not be able to last more more than a minute or two but it won't be easy for most to put me away in that time under the right circumstances, meaning a non competative event where each fighter has previous knowledge of the other's skills and style. If they can then all the more too them, but if the deciding factor was conditioning and outlasting me then really how skilled are you in your Art?

Also concerning Bigger Larger Men and fighting, in which weight divisions in Boxing are the most skilled fighters. Lighter weights IMO, because they punch faster and move faster therefore they need to be more skilled with their tools. Bigger, heavier men rely more on power punching and one punch knock outs, that's why that division is boring to watch and has lack of competitiveness today. Ali was the exception as he was a bigger man but fought like a fighter in a lighter weight class.

James

CFT

03-24-2005, 05:47 AM

I may not be able to last more more than a minute or two but it won't be easy for most to put me away in that time under the right circumstances, meaning a non competative event where each fighter has previous knowledge of the other's skills and style. If they can then all the more too them, but if the deciding factor was conditioning and outlasting me then really how skilled are you in your Art?Skilled enough in my opinion, since you couldn't take them out either. And in the end, their conditioning will get them the desired result.

CFT

03-24-2005, 06:02 AM

As Bruce Lee said, one will be able to do what is necessary when in a fight and the body will go until needed. Again the emphasize here is someone that has the skills, which means they have already gone through the years of training and have changed their bodies to adapt to the Wing Chun system, not people just using it as a hobby or people just starting out.In the documentary "Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey", Linda Lee-Caldwell relates the incident where Bruce was delivered an ultimatum from other CMA schools to stop teaching non-Chinese. The result was a challenge match to defend his right to teach. He fought for something like 15-20 mins. against an equally skilled opponent. I can't remember if he won or drew, but history shows that he kept on teaching. After the bout, he expressed his disbelief at how unfit he was and subsequently embarked on a life-long cardio regimen.

So what do you think of the value of cardio?

t_niehoff

03-24-2005, 06:32 AM

Jim Roselando

03-24-2005, 07:12 AM

Hello all,

A-lich and I were discussing this on the other thread. Yes, there is nothing wrong with regular and consistent lo-impact cardio. What I am talking about is the not so frequent high impact turbo up the heart rate stuff that shocks the system as you get older. If you think that is good for you then thats ok.

There you are Terence! I was waiting for your typical swim/non -swim post! hehehe

Our "condition" is *the* main factor in determining success in any fighting method.

Yes! jr

"Conditioning" is preparing our body for fighting and everything that goes into it,

Yes! That is what WCK is after all. A system of cultivation to produce a specific method or way of fighting. jr

including cardio.

Really? Show me where in any portion of the art is some sign of cardio? jr

Specifically how we condition ourselves depends on our method; different methods require preparing our bodies in different ways to do different things

You are 1000% correct! Thats what makes WCK WCK and WCK not boxing or something else. jr

(this is partly why the WCK folks that believe they can successfully groundfight with WCK are in for a rude awakening should they ever try it -- \WCK, besides not having the tools, won't condition your body for successful groundfighting).

I agree with you. WCK is not everything. I dont believe in WCK for the ground. I believe WCK is a specific method for a specifc way. We specialize in close range short bridge combat. jr

Our fighting skill is dependent on our conditioning -- they go hand-in-hand. It is an error to think of skill and conditioning as two different things as they operate together to produce results (like fuel and and engine need each other).

You are 100% correct. We condition the body, the breath and the thought process. We scuplt our bodies thru our sets, we give them a little feel thru partner sets and chi sao, we give it some power/beef thru the jong, pole, knives, etc. and we free it all up thru free fighting. jr

For example, a world-class level boxer has world-class skills because he's in world-class condition; a lay-off reduces his skill level since it reduces his conditioning. To regain his world-class skill level, he needs to get that level of conditioning back. Skill is a level of performance and conditioning is our bodies ability to perform.

Absolutely! Each art has there own ways and needs. jr

The reason nonfighting/theoreticians don't grasp this fundamental notion that all fighters regardless of style, lineage, etc. understand is because they don't see "skill" in WCK as fighting skill. They don't fight, and so lacking that experience, believe what they want to believe. But fighting is the most intense of all physical activities, and that intensity requires our bodies be ready for it.

Wow! There it is! Non/Theory dont know nothing. Nobody fights but the MMA and WCK Concept people. This kind a reminds me of JKD or JKD Concepts! hehehe Once again! I think a good thing we should all do so this non-sense takes a rest is have all of us get the people we have fought in recent times and have the list their credential and there experience when fighting with us. Then! We can post it with every post we make so we can see who is the really testing their stuff out or not. If not, then I think another good idea is for the Swimmers to show us non-swimmers the proof or results from their competing in any MMA or so-called Real competition with their Water tested WCK. Where the proof from that side? The shoe fits on both feet! Otherwise we are all nothing more than Keyboard Warriors IMHHHHHO. jr

I don't like the term "non-attribute-dependent" since many take that to mean one doesn't need attributes. But WCK, like Gracie JJ, is often called a "non-attribute-dependent" fighting method. What that means is that those methods are more dependent on mechanics for the successful application of that method's "techniques". Even with that being the case, certain "attributes" are still essential, including conditioning and timing.

100% correct. Each art has their own way to condition their bodies for fighting. There are arts that require Cardio and there are arts that dont. There is nothing wrong with some consistent regular cardio. Its good for you and your heart but that blast the heart rate up once in a while or during exchange is not as healthy for us when we get older. jr

Just checking in from the road! Where are the Leung Sheung guys on this one! I would like to hear some of Ken Chung's peoples thoughts!

See ya next week!

Ultimatewingchun

03-24-2005, 08:01 AM

"Conditioning is the best hold." (Karl Gotch)

t_niehoff

03-24-2005, 08:08 AM

JR asks:

Really? Show me where in any portion of the art is some sign of cardio? jr

**Certainly forms and cooperative drills don't require much cardio -- but that's not WCK in application (fighting). Move your body in any way at 100% intensity for any length of time and then tell me you don't need cardio.

**You ask to hear from the Leung Sheung/Ken Chung people? Why? So that more nonfighting/theoreticians can support your beliefs? Anyone that fights against folks with good attributes or skill will tell you the same thing: cardio is essential regardless of one's fighting method. Only the nonfighters believe otherwise. And I say that because if they fought anyone with significant levels of attributes or skills, they would know cardio is essential since that experience would have proven it to them. It's only the folks that haven't done it, that lack the experience, who believe otherwise.

**It's rather simple: out-of-condition, out-of-shape (including lack of good cardio) means lack of (fighting) skill. Is it really surprising that the folks that are out-of-shape nonfighters want to believe otherwise?

sihing

03-24-2005, 09:50 AM

In the documentary "Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey", Linda Lee-Caldwell relates the incident where Bruce was delivered an ultimatum from other CMA schools to stop teaching non-Chinese. The result was a challenge match to defend his right to teach. He fought for something like 15-20 mins. against an equally skilled opponent. I can't remember if he won or drew, but history shows that he kept on teaching. After the bout, he expressed his disbelief at how unfit he was and subsequently embarked on a life-long cardio regimen.

So what do you think of the value of cardio?

Apparently that fight with Wong Jak Man only lasted maybve 5 minutes and the reason why Bruce was tired was he had to chase the guy around the room, not from using his Wing Chun. Bruce did win the fight by eventually catching Wong and making him say Uncle.

I think there is value in Cardio, and you can make Wing Chun a cardio workout but it is not the essential attribute that makes it effective.

James

Jim Roselando

03-24-2005, 09:53 AM

Vic/T,

"Conditioning is the best hold." (Karl Gotch)

Absolutely! For Wrestling it is! For WCK it is a different type of conditioning.

**Certainly forms and cooperative drills don't require much cardio -- but that's not WCK in application (fighting). Move your body in any way at 100% intensity for any length of time and then tell me you don't need cardio.

There ya go! 100% intensity! 100% intensity for any length of time! So, how long does it take to put a severe hurting on someone with your art? Or are you doing multiple rounds of controlled enviornment sparring like the UFC which would indeed need that.

**You ask to hear from the Leung Sheung/Ken Chung people? Why? So that more nonfighting/theoreticians can support your beliefs?

Why? Because they train WCK to be expressed in a relaxed way! Oh! I forgot! He is not a fighter because he hasn't entered the UFC or any MMA event right? So, like I said before! Please show the proof! Where are the results from any WCK ready MMA event guy! We are all waiting! Remember! Results are what counts right? Show us all the results or lets all provide a list with credentials from the people we have all fought with their statements. Otherwise we are all KEYBOARD WARRIORS! Like it or not! Swim or dont swim.

Anyone that fights against folks with good attributes or skill will tell you the same thing: cardio is essential regardless of one's fighting method. Only the nonfighters believe otherwise. And I say that because if they fought anyone with significant levels of attributes or skills, they would know cardio is essential since that experience would have proven it to them. It's only the folks that haven't done it, that lack the experience, who believe otherwise.

Your right! Lets provide a refernece list and there testimony! I am up for it! Just like I was up for the video footage. Anyone else? Are you up for it?

**It's rather simple: out-of-condition, out-of-shape (including lack of good cardio) means lack of (fighting) skill. Is it really surprising that the folks that are out-of-shape nonfighters want to believe otherwise?

Who is out of shape? If you huff and puff when doing or fighting with WCK then you are putting too much effort into your movement!

But! Since your a promoter of real fighting then there is only one thing that matter right?! Where's the results! Thats your standard line so lets all be willing to have a refence list attached to our Bio or show us the results from any WCK man who has fought in any MMA event. The only person on this list who has anything to back up his talk is the MMA guys who competed in two events. But! He is not a WCK practitioner so we can leave him out. Show us the results.

Until then, end of discsussion and that Fighter/Theory Swim/Sink stuff is meaningless without the results to show us all just how we should be doing stuff.

Until then, Keyboard Warriors we all are!

Regards,

Jim Roselando

03-24-2005, 09:55 AM

Sihing/James wrote;

it is not the essential attribute that makes it effective.

Thank you!

sihing

03-24-2005, 09:57 AM

Skilled enough in my opinion, since you couldn't take them out either. And in the end, their conditioning will get them the desired result.

Then I will come back for another day, unless of course it was a death match. Lets put it this way, if someone defeated me just by outlasting me in a sparring match, and the conditioning was the only thing that made the difference, then I could easily train for as little as 2 months and come back to defeat this person. I'd much rather have superior effectiveness in what I am doing than superior conditioning because there are more well conditioned fighters out there IMO, than highly skilled fighters. Wing Chun IMO is a MA that emphasizes High quality effectiveness in everything it promotes and teaches us, therefore it is available to everyone. If a MA relies on how conditioned you are then it is available to only a few.

James

t_niehoff

03-24-2005, 10:13 AM

sihing

03-24-2005, 10:13 AM

Our "condition" is *the* main factor in determining success in any fighting method. "Conditioning" is preparing our body for fighting and everything that goes into it, including cardio. Specifically how we condition ourselves depends on our method; different methods require preparing our bodies in different ways to do different things (this is partly why the WCK folks that believe they can successfully groundfight with WCK are in for a rude awakening should they ever try it -- WCK, besides not having the tools, won't condition your body for successful groundfighting). Our fighting skill is dependent on our conditioning -- they go hand-in-hand. It is an error to think of skill and conditioning as two different things as they operate together to produce results (like fuel and and engine need each other). For example, a world-class level boxer has world-class skills because he's in world-class condition; a lay-off reduces his skill level since it reduces his conditioning. To regain his world-class skill level, he needs to get that level of conditioning back. Skill is a level of performance and conditioning is our bodies ability to perform.

The reason nonfighting/theoreticians don't grasp this fundamental notion that all fighters regardless of style, lineage, etc. understand is because they don't see "skill" in WCK as fighting skill. They don't fight, and so lacking that experience, believe what they want to believe. But fighting is the most intense of all physical activities, and that intensity requires our bodies be ready for it.

I don't like the term "non-attribute-dependent" since many take that to mean one doesn't need attributes. But WCK, like Gracie JJ, is often called a "non-attribute-dependent" fighting method. What that means is that those methods are more dependent on mechanics for the successful application of that method's "techniques". Even with that being the case, certain "attributes" are still essential, including conditioning and timing.

Who said anything about "Non-attribute-dependent". Skill attibutes are essential to WC training IMO. Plus Terence, it is not about the "Mechanics" that seperate WC from other MA in terms of effectiveness, but how and why we do things. The Tan Sao is not going to win in a combat situation, lol, but how, and when I use it correctly will. Positioning, economy of motion, proper guards, perception skills, timing, efficiency in technique and concept, effectiveness of what we are doing in our movements is what sets the WC system apart from the others. It slows down the other persons actions and/or makes it hard for them to attack, either by taking their tools out of commission by traps, using positioning strategies(like TWC blindide theory) or by using a close range tactics making it harder for them to get their tools off, effectively.

That Belfort vs Silva fight that has been mentioned on this forum, both men were in great shape but the fight lasted 45 seconds because of what Belfort did, not because of his phyical conditioning and ability to last round after round. Yeah, he is a strong guy in good shape and the conditioning he has done has increase his punching power, but the method he used to attack Silva was the thing that made it effective, and that thing highly resembled a Wing Chun tactic and technique.

James

sihing

03-24-2005, 10:22 AM

JR wrote:

There ya go! 100% intensity! 100% intensity for any length of time! So, how long does it take to put a severe hurting on someone with your art? Or are you doing multiple rounds of controlled enviornment sparring like the UFC which would indeed need that.

**How long does it take to "put a sever hurting on someone"? It depends on the someone. Here's an experiment for you, Jim -- go find a decent MMA/NHB fighter, so it's someone that is skilled and has some attributes, and ask him to fight you until one of you is either unconscious (and can't continue) or submits (gives up). Do that a few times and then come back and tell me you can finish these guys in seconds. Then tell me that you don't need cardio. Or, keep believing your fantasy.

Why? Because they train WCK to be expressed in a relaxed way!

**All fighters train to be relaxed. Boxers, BJJ, etc. are relaxed when they fight. That doesn't mean it doesn't take great exertion.

Oh! I forgot! He is not a fighter because he hasn't entered the UFC or any MMA event right? So, like I said before! Please show the proof! Where are the results from any WCK ready MMA event guy! We are all waiting! Remember! Results are what counts right? Show us all the results or lets all provide a list with credentials from the people we have all fought with their statements. Otherwise we are all KEYBOARD WARRIORS! Like it or not! Swim or dont swim.

**It's fighting that makes one a fighter, not entering tournaments. It has nothing to do with being keyboard warriors; it has to do with experience. Anyone that has fought with skilled people --ANYONE-- will tell you cardio condittion is a huge factor. The only people saying otherwise are folks that don't fight or haven't fought. You don't need to take my word for it. As I said above, go do my experiment and you'll see that I'm telling you the truth. If you don't want that experience, then keep believing your fantasy. If you come to Victor's get-together I'll be glad to show you why cardio is important.

Why is it that people always come back and say, "If your Art is so good go out and challenge so and so professional fighter that has 8 hours a day of training and time behind them", lol. How about I take a NHB fighter like me that teaches all day and maybe workouts out a couple of times a week, but nothing like a pro would and then test him out. This way we are releying on how effective are individual Arts are and not on how conditioned each individual is. That is what we are talking about right, effectiveness?

By the way, I know this is a story and I have mentioned this before, but one of our Students did just that, he knew the local NHB champ, and the same guy owns the Local NHB gym, they sparred and our student owned him, just due to the fact that the NHB guy was so unfamiliar with our students tactics and style. This student of ours is a natural fighter but does not train much (he has just recently come back to train on a regular basis, he does this type of thing, comes back for 6 months and then leaves training for 6 months, and has been with us since 92') in the WC school, and is a level 7 in our system which is equivalent to a black belt per say. He even had him in the school to try and teach him some stuff.

James

Jim Roselando

03-24-2005, 11:19 AM

T/James,

Find any MMA guy or NHB guy that trains the same ammount as me and I may win or I may not. I dont train that much anymore but I certainly go out and test against local people who train daily or triple what I do. I know what demands it takes on the body! For me, and the ammount of time I have to train, my WCK works very well. And! Since in the last few years I have been un-lucky to have been involved in some fights I am more than satisfied with the results of the time put in! Like I said, I am more than happy to have them (the people I fight) post credential and thoughts. Thats the only thing we can all do to put this BS non-sense to rest. Pound for pound it is one of the more effective methods of body usage for me!

How else do we know who is fighting or not and what level they are fighting against?

Otherwise! Its Keyboard Warriors!

2 days per week is all I have to train now a days! Find an art that if you only have 2 days a week to train that can give you decent results that need not have you in the gym and in the areobics class other than a few arts. Wing Chun is one.

If I was training harder and regular then lots more stuff can be done.

Sorry if you dont see that!

James wrote:

Why is it that people always come back and say, "If your Art is so good go out and challenge so and so professional fighter that has 8 hours a day of training and time behind them", lol. How about I take a NHB fighter like me that teaches all day and maybe workouts out a couple of times a week, but nothing like a pro would and then test him out. This way we are releying on how effective are individual Arts are and not on how conditioned each individual is. That is what we are talking about right, effectiveness?

Why is this so hard to understand?

Regards,

AndrewS

03-24-2005, 05:08 PM

James writes:

Thing is most big men have ego's just as big and therefore feel no need to learn something, that can be to the advantage of the smaller man. Chop them down like a tree they say....

Funny, the mellowist guys I run into are almost always the heavyweights. There are some exceptions, but usually the big boys are used to not trying to break the small hyper guys they train with, while still figuring out how to get something out of training with them.

That Belfort vs Silva fight that has been mentioned on this forum, both men were in great shape but the fight lasted 45 seconds because of what Belfort did, not because of his phyical conditioning and ability to last round after round. Yeah, he is a strong guy in good shape and the conditioning he has done has increase his punching power, but the method he used to attack Silva was the thing that made it effective

And the method would be- conditioning, specifically anaerobic conditioning allowing him to do a short burst of extremely explosive work. Belfort may be the 'Phenom', but if you think that wasn't a trained attribute, you are deeply confused.

As I said, the 50, 100, and 400, as well as the ability to run them repeatedly, as it were.

Andrew

t_niehoff

03-25-2005, 07:17 AM

sihing,

You prabably are a nice guy and sincerely believe all that stuff, but you are very much "confused" about so many things. I could try and explain but it wouldn't do any good because you lack the experience -- you've never done WCK (fought). The only thing that will help you is to get this experience. If you don't get it, you'll forever be one of the theoretician/nonfighters without a clue about WCK. Oh, sure, you'll have your theories, you'll have your faith in your sifu, you'll have your cooperative practice (that you believe is noncooperative), etc. but all that provides you with no real skill and no real understanding. Do yourself a big favor: actually begin *practicing* WCK, that is put it into real practice by fighting, and not with your schoolmates, but good people from different disciplines. When you do that, all the BS will begin to fall away.

t_niehoff

03-25-2005, 08:18 AM

An afterthought . . .

sihing wrote:

Why is it that people always come back and say, "If your Art is so good go out and challenge so and so professional fighter that has 8 hours a day of training and time behind them", lol. How about I take a NHB fighter like me that teaches all day and maybe workouts out a couple of times a week, but nothing like a pro would and then test him out.

**A good MMA/NHB fighter doesn't need to be pro -- there are lots of folks training in MMA/NHB that never fight publically (just in training). And, even a lot of the pros don't come close to training "8 hours a day". Both these sorts of statements just show your ignorance: that you've never visited a MMA gym or met a good NHB fighter. You've been "learning WCK" for 10 years, right? So go to a MMA gym and ask to fight someone with only 3 years training, coming to the gym two or three nights a week. He'll whoop you. If you don't beleive me, try it.

-----------------------

JR wrote:

For me, and the ammount of time I have to train, my WCK works very well. And! Since in the last few years I have been un-lucky to have been involved in some fights I am more than satisfied with the results of the time put in!

**Funny, but I had a shotokan BB tell me exactly the same sort of thing -- that his reverse punch from the hip worked in the streetfights (which, according to him, proved his method was sound), that he was able to use his blocks, etc. And they "spar" at his karate studio. Of course, none of that -- the reverse punches or blocks -- will work against anyone with any skill (why we don't see it in NHB fights), and they are only able to make these things work in their "sparring" because everyone at his school is doing the same crap (and not doing those things that will take advantage of them). But he didn't see it, and was happy with his results, until he visited a MMA gyms and experienced firsthand the sorts of things I've been talking about.

Jim Roselando

03-25-2005, 09:35 AM

Last thoughts for T,

**Funny, but I had a shotokan BB tell me exactly the same sort of thing -- that his reverse punch from the hip worked in the streetfights (which, according to him, proved his method was sound), that he was able to use his blocks, etc. And they "spar" at his karate studio. Of course, none of that -- the reverse punches or blocks -- will work against anyone with any skill (why we don't see it in NHB fights), and they are only able to make these things work in their "sparring" because everyone at his school is doing the same crap (and not doing those things that will take advantage of them). But he didn't see it, and was happy with his results, until he visited a MMA gyms and experienced firsthand the sorts of things I've been talking about.

Great story! Luckily I have not been ignoring the outside world. Its a lot more fun than the same old WC versus WC story. I am pretty happy on that end to! In case you were curious! All in all, its been good to me! I am not saying I dominated or won everytime but it has been good to me and hopefully will continue to be!

Adios,

Matrix

03-25-2005, 10:24 AM

**Funny, but I had a shotokan BB tell me exactly the same sort of thing -- that his reverse punch from the hip worked in the streetfights (which, according to him, proved his method was sound), that he was able to use his blocks, etc. And they "spar" at his karate studio. Wait a minute here...... Terence, you've always proclaimed that people need to fight a resisting opponent to be a fighter. Now, when someone fights in a street-fight and successful defeats his opponents, his techniques are not good enough. So now we need to enter NHB contests? What's next, do we have to fight in a prison riot. :rolleyes:

BTW, I agree that the reverse punch from the hip is not the best, but that's not the point of contention here.

sihing

03-25-2005, 11:15 AM

An afterthought . . .

sihing wrote:

Why is it that people always come back and say, "If your Art is so good go out and challenge so and so professional fighter that has 8 hours a day of training and time behind them", lol. How about I take a NHB fighter like me that teaches all day and maybe workouts out a couple of times a week, but nothing like a pro would and then test him out.

**A good MMA/NHB fighter doesn't need to be pro -- there are lots of folks training in MMA/NHB that never fight publically (just in training). And, even a lot of the pros don't come close to training "8 hours a day". Both these sorts of statements just show your ignorance: that you've never visited a MMA gym or met a good NHB fighter. You've been "learning WCK" for 10 years, right? So go to a MMA gym and ask to fight someone with only 3 years training, coming to the gym two or three nights a week. He'll whoop you. If you don't beleive me, try it.

So your a fortune teller now TOO! So in other words Terence, you believe in the effectiveness of MMA more so than WC, and you call yourself a WC teacher and practitioner, now that even a MHB hobbist fight can take me out. Your like someone else on this forum I know, they already have their minds made up too, so no use in going on anyfurther. If I do you will probably come back and say the half the senior citizens in the old folks home down the street from me can kick my butt to.

James

P.S. Been practiticing WC for 16yrs now and teaching for 14yrs, but in your eyes this is probably more proof of how lousy my WC is and myself as a practitioner because you can tell skill from level from posts on a internet forum, LOL....Terence the ALL KNOWING.

Ultimatewingchun

03-25-2005, 12:02 PM

"Funny, but I had a shotokan BB tell me exactly the same sort of thing -- that his reverse punch from the hip worked in the streetfights (which, according to him, proved his method was sound), that he was able to use his blocks, etc. And they "spar" at his karate studio. Of course, none of that -- the reverse punches or blocks -- will work against anyone with any skill (why we don't see it in NHB fights), and they are only able to make these things work in their "sparring" because everyone at his school is doing the same crap (and not doing those things that will take advantage of them). But he didn't see it, and was happy with his results, until he visited a MMA gyms and experienced firsthand the sorts of things I've been talking about." (Terence)

I THINK what Terence was saying here, Bill...is that the karate BB used his reverse punch from the hip successfully against his dojo sparring partners and perhaps against some unskilled guys in the street...

but when he visited a MMA gym he found out how inadequate many of his moves were against skilled fighters.

And he also said that fighting in public events is not a prerequisite to being a good fighter; but that in today's world, crosstraining and fighting/sparring against skilled MMA guys and other stylists (other than one's Wing Chun comrades) - is a prerequisite.

And I agree with him.

t_niehoff

03-25-2005, 12:24 PM

Matrix wrote:

Wait a minute here...... Terence, you've always proclaimed that people need to fight a resisting opponent to be a fighter. Now, when someone fights in a street-fight and successful defeats his opponents, his techniques are not good enough. So now we need to enter NHB contests? What's next, do we have to fight in a prison riot.

**Anyone can fight, even without training. But what I said, was that to become a significantly better fighter, one needs to fight as part of their training (like all good fighters do). The trouble with "streetfighting" -- and folks that use it as proof of something -- is that it can't really measure your performance level doing it since one typically doesn't know the skill level of the person they are fighting. You may win not because you have much skill but because your opponent is a scrub. I've met some people that have won lots of "streetfights" or barfights but were morsels for someone with some skill. This is the whole idea behind "progressive resistance" -- the resistance is the opponent, the progression is in their skill level. Beating some chump on the ground in a streetfight doesn't mean one has great groundfighting skills; beating a BJJ black belt on the mat proves you do. Similarly, Jim "winning" some street encounter doesn't mean he has any significant WCK skills; stepping up and fighting a skilled fighter does.

**And, while we're on the subject, the reason I use the term "fighting" instead of "sparring" is precisely because of my encounter with the shotokan BB -- they "sparred" all the time, but they never fought. Someone that fights will know what I'm talking about (the difference between the two).

sihing

03-25-2005, 12:33 PM

What's the definition of a Good Fighter? One that competes or one that can defend themselves?

It will vary depending on your values and goals. The BB was able to use his reverse punch in real situations so therefore he has the ability to defend himself, great. As long as the ego doesn't get out of hand, and he starts to think he is unbeatable, what else is there? Going out and fullfilling a Ego? Challenging one's self? Where there is a Challenge to overcome, ego is not too far behind. Where there is a point to prove, ego is not too far behind. Is Wing Chun training about being the best? Or is it about learning a Martial Art, which firstly provides you with effective self defense and then after that is achieved, the more important life lessons.

James

t_niehoff

03-25-2005, 12:35 PM

sihing

03-25-2005, 12:40 PM

t_niehoff

03-25-2005, 12:48 PM

sihing, skill is our performance ability. So, it's relatively easy to say who is a "good fighter" -- it's someone that can hold (and has held) their own against other good fighters consistently (they consistently perform at that level). A world-class fighter is someone who can hold their own against other world-class fighters consistently. Since fighting involves two (or more) persons "competing", skill levels will always be relative, not objective.

Matrix

03-25-2005, 12:51 PM

. The trouble with "streetfighting" -- and folks that use it as proof of something -- is that it can't really measure your performance level doing it since one typically doesn't know the skill level of the person they are fighting. This will always be an issue. Even the best trained fighter will eventually meet someone who will beat them. We can go around in circles endlessly by saying that this person was not a good enough test, or whatever. Even a scrub is a resisting opponent. That was the point I was trying to make. I am more likely to get in a confrontation with a scrub then a NHB fighter. Having said that, I strive to be the best I can given my own personal limitations.

You can still be a fighter, even if you are not the best fighter or have not fought the best. If we are going to leave MA's only for the Elite then most of us should stay home, but of course that's not the case. We must measure our skill against ourselves to some degree as well. In other words, are we getting better, or just going through the motions and marking time. Proving that is something a little bit different.

BTW, I absolutely agree with your point about "sparring". It is not fighting and it can lead people into a false sense of security when the time comes to fight.

t_niehoff

03-25-2005, 12:56 PM

sihing wrote:

How do you Terence know the skill level of every streetfighter in the world today. You say street experience means nothing, oh really.

**I didn't say it meant nothing, I said you can't tell your performance level without knowing your opponent's skill level. Self-defense involves lots more than fighting skill -- so much more. No one "learns" self-defense from WCK or any marital art. They can only learn to become better fighters, and should they ever need to fight as self-defense, they will have the skills. But most self-defense doesn't involve hand-to-hand or empty-hand fighting.

In the training of the NHB guys, do they really go out to kill one another in the "sparring/fight" sessions, are they using weapons against one another with undue care? Are they fighting their partner in class and having the rest of the class gang up on them, when the 10 minute bell has rung? As you already know, these are the situations, UNCONTROLLED situations that can happen in the street, or maybe you don't know.

**Sure there are lots of uncontrolled situations possbile on the street -- so what. If we practice martial arts, we are trying to become better fighters. If an "uncontrolled situation" occurs that requires fighting skills, the fighter will have better odds. Someone might get away with being a poor fighter, learning poor techniques that only work in the kwoon or against scrubs, etc. but if they want to develop skill in WCK, in a fighting method, you determine that skill not by how well they can beat on scrubs but by how well they can do against other skilled folks.

sihing

03-25-2005, 12:58 PM

Victor, that was exactly my point.

sihing, years in WCK, ranking, certificates, who your sifu is, how you've done is chi sao tournaments, etc. is all nonsense and meaningless. What matters is your personal level of performance, what you can do fighting (not how well we can do drills or forms). That can only be determined (and increased) by fighting (not sparring with your classmates). No fighting means no significant fighting (WCK) skill. Period. It's like someone saying they never get in the pool -- nothing else matters, because they won't be a good swimmer, they can't be. So all the grandmasters that never fought, never developed any real skill. If they stop fighting, their skills decline. How good they got can only be measured in the quality fo the opposition they fought.

I disagree with some of this. You just finished telling someone on here that everyone can fight, without any sort of training. Now you say that years of practice is meaningless? Your lineage is basically a quality control measurement tool. To deny this is to make all those pro boxers that hire a well known trainer look like idiots. Why would a pro boxer on the rise hire a well known trainer? Reputation, to which means history and track record, just like lineage. Now of course you cannot live off of that lineages history and just sign your name on the student register, but at the least, you know you are in the right place to start your progression in WC training.

I do agree with you that just practicing the forms and chi-sao is not going to make you a complete fighter, you have to test your skills in a ever increasing intensity atmosphere and learn the non-contact stages of fighting (how to read the opponent, entry methods, etc..), but please do not tell me that the best competiton fighters in the world today are trying to kill one another in their training sessions, because they aren't. They train hard yes, and as realistically as they can, but they do not fight/spar on a daily or weekly basis with the exact same intensity and energy levels it takes to compete in one fight at that pro level. Too much breakdown would happen for anyone to accept that type of punishment on a regular basis. Swimming laps is different from fighting, so that comparison doesn't work either.

James

Matrix

03-25-2005, 01:18 PM

I THINK what Terence was saying here, Bill...is that the karate BB used his reverse punch from the hip successfully against his dojo sparring partners and perhaps against some unskilled guys in the street....Victor,
I understood that point about the dojo sparring - no problem there. However, if we are just going to assume that a streetfight should be automatically discounted, and that the opponent was a "scrub", then I the problem becomes that we cannot prove our skill until we enter a NHB event against a world-class fighter. At what point to we have adequate proof of our ability? I'm suggesting that the benchmark will change to suit the position of the person in question. Or maybe I'm just getting too cynical. ;)

Ultimatewingchun

03-25-2005, 08:47 PM

I see your point, Bill.

And for what it's worth - I think every streetfight is "important" - because they will always teach us something about real life, about moves that may or may not work, about ourselves, about other people, about legalities, human relations, etc.

But we need to know our limitations - and what the limitations of our opponents were; otherwise, we could be fooling ourselves the next time around.

I once had an unarmed streetfight (as an adult - and well into my wing chun days) against two guys - and beat both of them. One suffered a cracked rib and the other had to go to the nearest emergency room for six stitches in his ear.

Sounds impressive, right?

But not really. They were both scrubs...and I got off the first punch.

Sure I learned some important things about what I could do from engaging in that fight...and how some people might react to certain moves that I made, etc.

BUT THEY WERE SCRUBS.

And I suffered a concussion in a fight that happened years after that - while fighting just one guy on a moving subway train (who was no bigger than I was).

And I learned from that encounter also.

So you're right - it's not just about NHB, MMA professionals.

There's no one single thing that's true about fighting - it's all true.

And it's all relative to each individual situation. We just have to do the best we can do - that's all.

Matrix

03-26-2005, 04:25 PM

But we need to know our limitations - and what the limitations of our opponents were; otherwise, we could be fooling ourselves the next time around......

<SNIP>
...And it's all relative to each individual situation. We just have to do the best we can do - that's all.Victor,
I'm with you on that point, for sure. Self-delusion is the one of the worst kinds of self-abuse.

I like your example of the streetfight, and I have one of my own. Many many years ago, when I first started martial arts training in Shotokan Karate (I was a yellow-belt) I was confronted by two guys who I had known from high school. Guys I know who had hurt me in the past...

Now I took out the first guy with a single kick and punch, the other guy decided not to take his chances. I still remember the look on his face so many years later. :D

Now my point is that these guys may have been scrubs, but if this had happened before I had learned the basic kick and punch I suspect that they would have hurt me. My game had improved with some basic skills, and a little confidence. So, I value all incremental levels of skill and learning, since you never know when it will be the difference between victory or defeat. For me, this is more real and more practical than if I entered a NHB event. My experience tells me this is so.

Look, I'm a middle-aged guy who works in a bank. Any delusions of grandeur have long since desolved...but I still train today.... at a slightly higher level I suspect. It's about pushing yourself a little higher and not resting on the past accomplishments. It's the spice of life that gets me the kwoon to train.

03-26-2005, 08:15 PM

Just checking in from the road! Where are the Leung Sheung guys on this one! I would like to hear some of Ken Chung's peoples thoughts!

Most seem to be focusing their time and energies elsewhere of late.

IMHO, everybody is a bit right on the cardio issue.

In our way of training (me and mine), we are distinctly aiming not to compete on the basis of strength, speed, or common athletic attributes. The more we rely on those things, the more we tend to defeat ourselves. Instead, we aim to learn methods and develop more uncommon attributes that economize on energy expenditure, and which consequently minimize the demand on the cardiovascular system. The good news is, this means there is potential for growth and improvement for virtually anyone, even the relatively disadvantaged.

Nonetheless, good health, including cardiovascular health, fully functioning and injury free joints, youthfulness, etc. are assets that provide additional and important advantages, even in our relaxed but substantial and "feminine" way of training, if you will. Virtually any kind of training involves some physical demands and energy expenditure; ours is no exception.

Good cardiovascular health can provide an important edge, especially when things are more "real" than "ideal." So there are some fairly obvious practical matters. In training, those with better cardiovascular health generally have more endurance and can practice longer. In unfortunate (IMHO) encounters (e.g., "real fights"), they may sustain their energy and performance longer (all other things and banana peels being equal). Just because I or anyone would "like" to have the ability for ultimate control or an instant stop, doesn't mean we can automagically turn that kind of skill on in training or in the "street," and it's no guarantee that circumstances will be favorable if and when the poo hits the proverbial fan. (FWIW, I'm not a big believer in "guarantees" generally.)

The people I train with who are in better shape or are in better health (that would be most of them), have definite advantages over me. There will always be people who have advantages I don't have or you don't have. That's life. Paradoxically, it's also a fundamental premise of my training, and why we focus on attributes and skill areas that don't compete so directly with others' natural or cultivated and often superior physical gifts. It isn't a matter of expecting miracles, rather a matter of making a choice. We all have the choice to work with what we have, do the best we can in the moment, and aim to improve what we can for the future. The alternative is to put our faith in nay saying, and stagnate or quit. We all pays our money and takes our chances.

Bottom line is, IMHO and IME, almost anyone can train and improve using our methods (or adaptations of them), regardless of physical advantages or challenges. At the same time cardiovascular and general fitness is still an important plus.

I'll leave it to others to argue for or against certain degrees of cardio training, as some persistently argue for or against different levels of training intensity or fighting. However, for general wellness, quality of life and longevity, it's hard to debate against general fitness or a modicum of cardiovascular health, and regardless if one practices martial arts or not.

That was a lot of words just to agree with you all, LOL. Back over to you guys.

Regards,
- kj

03-26-2005, 08:18 PM

**You ask to hear from the Leung Sheung/Ken Chung people? Why? So that more nonfighting/theoreticians can support your beliefs?

Classy.

Regards,
- kj

t_niehoff

03-27-2005, 07:42 AM

On a MMA/NHB forum a while back, one (pro) fighter made an interesting comment along the lines of "90% of martial art practitioners just want to be entertained" -- and he felt that most martial art schools were directed at those people.

----------------

KJ wrote:

In our way of training (me and mine), we are distinctly aiming not to compete on the basis of strength, speed, or common athletic attributes. The more we rely on those things, the more we tend to defeat ourselves. Instead, we aim to learn methods and develop more uncommon attributes that economize on energy expenditure, and which consequently minimize the demand on the cardiovascular system. The good news is, this means there is potential for growth and improvement for virtually anyone, even the relatively disadvantaged.

**There is a fundamental *assumption* at the root of this viewpoint: that one can successfully compete without "a basis of strength, speed, or common athletic attributes". This is the sort of thing that is frequently used to "sell" WCK. But it is completely and utterly mistaken. Show me anyone that can fight well using WCK , someone that can successfully defeat any decent fighter without "a basis of strength, speed, or common athletic attributes". You can't do it. Because no such person exists. There is no evidence to support this assumption yet you believe this theoretical view because you want it to be true. If someone believes they can successfully compete without "a basis of strength, speed, or common athletic attributes" it is an easy enough thing to test: go to a local NHB gym and have a go, see if your theory is true. Where are all the folks with this ability? Why is no one stepping forward?

Matrix

03-27-2005, 12:22 PM

Bottom line is, IMHO and IME, almost anyone can train and improve using our methods (or adaptations of them), regardless of physical advantages or challenges. At the same time cardiovascular and general fitness is still an important plus.KJ,
That pretty much sums it up for me as well.

Matrix

03-27-2005, 12:33 PM

**There is a fundamental *assumption* at the root of this viewpoint: that one can successfully compete without "a basis of strength, speed, or common athletic attributes". Except that most of us are not talking about "competing" in anything. Also, I have no interest in selling WCK to anyone. Besides, it's not for sale.

If it all boils down to strength, speed and athletic ability then the art offers no advantage to those of us who will never be the strongest, fastest or most athletic person in a given situation. I can hit the weights, but I will never be the strongest. I can hit the track, but never be the fastest. You speak as an Elitist. "Let them eat cake", right Terence. :rolleyes:

sihing

03-27-2005, 08:11 PM

Except that most of us are not talking about "competing" in anything. Also, I have no interest in selling WCK to anyone. Besides, it's not for sale.

If it all boils down to strength, speed and athletic ability then the art offers no advantage to those of us who will never be the strongest, fastest or most athletic person in a given situation. I can hit the weights, but I will never be the strongest. I can hit the track, but never be the fastest. You speak as an Elitist. "Let them eat cake", right Terence. :rolleyes:

When everything is equal, strength, speed, stamina, toughness, will or guts, then what is it that makes the difference? IMO it is not just high level skill but also what that skill includes. What skills do you possess? IMO Wing Chun offers a set of skills that are very very effective and some what different from what other MA give in regards to skill. Yes we all need timing, and footwork, etc. but the timing and footwork that the WC provides is on a very high level of efficiency and leaves one with tools that will work against any fighter on any surface or place on this earth. But like anything worth while, it will not be yours for free, so I agree here with Terence, the "Miles" have to be put in, and you have to understand the art you are learning, and what your abilities (strengths & weaknesses) are regarding your place in that Art. You have to test your abilities and be honest about them at all times.

James

Gangsterfist

03-27-2005, 09:45 PM

just got back from class a few hours ago. We did lots of foot work exercises tonight. One drill we did, is everyone lined up side by side. We did very low cross steps. Low enough where your butt was a foot or under from the ground, stepped up and kicked and repeated, then did it back wards after doing it forwards. Man my quads got a good work out doing those over and over again. Then we did another drill in the same fashion, but it was tea stance (again very low) which drew back into a reverse bow and arrow stance, and repeated alternating legs as we stepped.

How is this wing chun?

Its not.

It is however, good training. Train long range motion to develope short burst power. After we did sets of those, we then started training our wing chun foot work, and did it with hand techniques. After about 15 or 20 min straight of the leg work outs I started to sweat and started to feel my pulse go up. I was getting a cardio work out as well.

After class I felt great. Relaxed, not sore, not stiff, not even really that tired. I train TKD kick sets every now and then, because its good training and being able to kick well is nice to have in your attributes with wing chun.

I suggest you just get some basic kung fu drills and exercises (things you find in tons and tons of systems) and do them. It helps develope power, it increases your skill and your health.

I do another drill which was dubbed, norther legs southern fists. Its a drill set of hand techs and low long range foot work. After about 5 minutes you feel your calves and quads to burn. Its good training and you never know, it may actually come in handy with your wing chun.

Just my opinion.

t_niehoff

03-28-2005, 05:42 AM

Matrix wrote:

Except that most of us are not talking about "competing" in anything.

**Any fight is a "competition" - two persons competing against one another (one trying to defeat the other). But I do agree with you: most of you are not talking about competing. Because you're not talking about fighting, and what it takes to fight successfully (with WCK).

Also, I have no interest in selling WCK to anyone. Besides, it's not for sale.

**Sometimes we "sell" things to ourselves because they make us feel better about ourselves; sometimes "instructors" recognize this and promote that view to take their money. It must be comforting when someone is out-of-shape and in poor physical condition to believe that they can nevertheless be a skilled WCK practitioner (and fighter) without having to do the training. It takes a whole lot less work that way.

If it all boils down to strength, speed and athletic ability then the art offers no advantage to those of us who will never be the strongest, fastest or most athletic person in a given situation.

**I'm not saying it all boils down to strength or speed. Reread what I did say: that we need a basis in strength, speed, and other athletic attributes. Royce Gracie at 170 lbs. beat Akebono, the grand sumo champion who weighted 450 lbs. Here's a very real example of someone defeating a much larger, stronger fighter. He didn't do it with *superior* strength or speed or athletic attributes. Yet his body's excellent conditioning was -- as it is for anyone -- a large factor in his overall skill level. He was in great shape which combined with his superior technical and tactical training allowed him to win. Had he not been in great condition, his body wouldn't have performed as well, and he would have lost.

**Like Royce, your "fighting condition" corresponds to your fighting performance level -- poor conditioning means poor fighting performance level; the better your fighting conditioning, the better your body can perform. This ain't rocket science.

I can hit the weights, but I will never be the strongest. I can hit the track, but never be the fastest. You speak as an Elitist. "Let them eat cake", right Terence.

**It's not an elitist attitude, it's a realistic one. Look at how all fighters train. Look at boxers, wrestlers, BJJ, muay thai, lyokushinkai, etc. But like KJ, you can't name one proven good fighter that doesn't train like them, with conditioning a key factor. So with no evidence that it can be done and ignoring the correlation between skill and conditioning, you hope and feel that somehow even the out-of-shape, the folks in poor physical condition, should somehow be able to develop fighting skill. Well, that's fantasy. And it is the POV of a nonfighter (someone that doesn't fight); anyone that does fight as part of their training will immediately recognize the correlation between skill and conditioning, and the essential need for condtitioning.

t_niehoff

03-28-2005, 06:05 AM

Matrix wrote:

I like your example of the streetfight, and I have one of my own. Many many years ago, when I first started martial arts training in Shotokan Karate (I was a yellow-belt) I was confronted by two guys who I had known from high school. Guys I know who had hurt me in the past...

Now I took out the first guy with a single kick and punch, the other guy decided not to take his chances. I still remember the look on his face so many years later.

Now my point is that these guys may have been scrubs, but if this had happened before I had learned the basic kick and punch I suspect that they would have hurt me. My game had improved with some basic skills, and a little confidence. So, I value all incremental levels of skill and learning, since you never know when it will be the difference between victory or defeat. For me, this is more real and more practical than if I entered a NHB event. My experience tells me this is so.

**While your training was effective *in this instance* against the scrubs, how much does it really tell you about your personal performance level -- what you could really do? Not much. How good a fighter were you? Who knows? If these guys had been a bit better, either through training or attribute level or aggression or whatever, how would you have fared? Who knows? Perhaps if you had just been going to the gym, and lifting weights, you would have still won. Maybe it was just surprise that saved you. By fightng as a part of your training (not entering a NHB tourney) you can find those things out about your performance level, uncover your weaknesses, develop your own game, etc. In other words, you can become a better fighter. And that's our goal, isn't it?

Look, I'm a middle-aged guy who works in a bank. Any delusions of grandeur have long since desolved...but I still train today.... at a slightly higher level I suspect. It's about pushing yourself a little higher and not resting on the past accomplishments. It's the spice of life that gets me the kwoon to train.

**I think you have a misconception. If you go to a MMA gym, like a Straightblast Gym for example, you'll find all kinds of people, women, middle-aged white-collar workers, some older folks, etc. They are not all there to train to enter MMA competitions, but to train to get into good shape (how cna that be a bad thing?) and to develop some fighting skills. If you go to a good BJJ school, you'll find the same cross-section of people, also trying to get into good shape and develop some groundfighting skills. Someone can just learn some BJJ techniques and maybe get lucky and pull one off against a scrub in a fight (as you did), but that's not how a person really develops into a good groundfighter. That comes by lots of training, including rolling (fighting). And to roll (fight), one needs to be in good condition.

03-28-2005, 06:50 AM

**There is a fundamental *assumption* at the root of this viewpoint: that one can successfully compete without "a basis of strength, speed, or common athletic attributes". This is the sort of thing that is frequently used to "sell" WCK.

That is not what I wrote. Twisting nuances of meaning and playing word games doesn't make your statement mine. To presume that you know my or others' assumptions is unjustified. Asserting that you understand my or others' viewpoints is ludicrous. Please don't presume to speak for me; your track record is poor.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Ultimatewingchun

03-28-2005, 11:19 AM

Bill, KJ, crimsonking:

While I think that Terence does get carried away sometimes by his own rhetoric, nonetheless, his basic argument is a solid one:

1) Conditioning & cardio are very important factors in determining who wins and who loses a fight, a sparring match, whatever.

(If you take issue with this - then answer the following: If two wing chun guys fought, both the same age, height, weight, skill level, and having the same intensity regarding the will-to-win...

but one of them is in excellent condition, flexibility, cardio endurance, etc....and the other is very out-of-shape in this regard...WHO WOULD YOU EXPECT TO WIN?)

2) Fighting...Sparring...(whatever words we want to use)...with real moderate-to-heavy contact being made on a very regular basis is a must-do activity if one wants to be able to really perform with their wing chun skills at a level that would be competitive against other fighting styles like Boxing, Muay-Thai, Kyokushin, BJJ, Wrestling, Kickboxing, etc.

03-28-2005, 12:58 PM

Hello Victor,

1) Conditioning & cardio are very important factors in determining who wins and who loses a fight, a sparring match, whatever.

(If you take issue with this - then answer the following: If two wing chun guys fought, both the same age, height, weight, skill level, and having the same intensity regarding the will-to-win...

but one of them is in excellent condition, flexibility, cardio endurance, etc....and the other is very out-of-shape in this regard...WHO WOULD YOU EXPECT TO WIN?)

2) Fighting...Sparring...(whatever words we want to use)...with real moderate-to-heavy contact being made on a very regular basis is a must-do activity if one wants to be able to really perform with their wing chun skills at a level that would be competitive against other fighting styles like Boxing, Muay-Thai, Kyokushin, BJJ, Wrestling, Kickboxing, etc.

I understand these points quite clearly. Some seem to presume that I'm debating against those points. I am not. Anyone who thinks otherwise either hasn’t really “listened” or has injected their own interpretations in between the lines. There’s always a chance I may have missed something, but I don't recall seeing Matrix or Crimsonking argue against those points either. Despite popular forum logic, the existence of one valid concern does not preclude the existence of other valid concerns; it is this notion which seems to be the more elusive one.

My proposition is that the points above are not the only considerations for a reasonable human being and prospective martial artist, and that “real” individualized (and not merely theoretical and generalized) context matters. This notion seems to be a source of continuing consternation for some.

While I think that Terence does get carried away sometimes by his own rhetoric ...

That's more euphemism than understatement.

Regardless of converging or diverging experiences and viewpoints, mature and reasonable people can, if they choose, treat each other with a modicum of sincere dignity and respect.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Ultimatewingchun

03-28-2005, 01:43 PM

"My proposition is that the points above are not the only considerations for a reasonable human being and prospective martial artist, and that 'real' individualized (and not merely theoretical and generalized) context matters. This notion seems to be a source of continuing consternation for some." (KJ)

I SEE YOUR POINT, Kathy Jo. Not everyone who gets involved in wing chun wants to be a "competitive" fighter - they may have other very legitimate reasons for taking up the art (ie.- it's a fairly good workout, it's mentally challenging and interesting, it provides an opportunity to learn some self defense principles, strategies, and techniques, it provides a bit of comraderie, perhaps even serves as an introduction to more esoteric things like "chi gung" or a higher Taoist-Buddhist philosophy about life).

And I applaud those things.

But what concerns me, and I'm sure the same could be said for Terence, and a bunch of other people as well, is that some people are very vocal about trying to have it both ways - and that's where FANTASY comes into play.

Some people want to say that somehow "they know" that their fighting abilities against other FIGHTING systems match up well - or that their Wing Chun system in general matches up quite well...even though...

1) They don't engage in strengthening, conditioning, cardio, and hard sparring...and...

2) They never compete against skilled fighters from other systems.

THESE CLAIMS ARE PREPOSDEROUS, Kathy Jo.

And they make for some very vociferous and sometimes downright nasty and blunt responses coming from people who know better.

It's unfortunate that sometimes people like yourself, and some others, who don't try to have it both ways get up in all the mudslinging.

What else can I say?

PaulH

03-28-2005, 03:13 PM

"What else can I say?"

It would be nice if they throw pies more often instead. I like a little three stooges here once in a while... =D
___________________________________________
All the World's a Stooge:

Moe: The maha-...
Curly: Aha! Lazpanya se chekini fuchi a jimini haronji!

Moe: The maha-...
Curly: Aha! Lazpanya se chekini fuchi...
Moe: Siddown!
Curly: Oh, shaddap! I don't have to!

Curly: Lazpanya se chekini fuchi, I faw down!

Moe: Brother, you all ejaculated a mouthful.

Matrix

03-28-2005, 03:38 PM

**While your training was effective *in this instance* against the scrubs, how much does it really tell you about your personal performance level -- what you could really do? Not much. How good a fighter were you? Who knows? If these guys had been a bit better, either through training or attribute level or aggression or whatever, how would you have fared? Who knows? .I guess you know, since you seem to know it all........
If they'd been better? Or If there were more of them? Or whatever what-if scenario you care to dream up. I can tell you with certainty that the results would have been a whole lot worse for me if I had not had that little bit of training. Speculation beyond that is a muggs game IMO.

Gangsterfist

03-28-2005, 03:54 PM

I guess you know, since you seem to know it all........
If they'd been better? Or If there were more of them? Or whatever what-if scenario you care to dream up. I can tell you with certainty that the results would have been a whole lot worse for me if I had not had that little bit of training. Speculation beyond that is a muggs game IMO.

Okay, what if you were cornered with no escape by a pergnant mountain lion? She had her claws out and was showing her teeth. Roaring at you and stalking towards you. You have no where to run, you must face this pregnant mountain lion or die.

Do you pak da her?

Ding girk?

What would yip man do (WWYMD)?

Ultimatewingchun

03-28-2005, 04:30 PM

Gangsterfist:

Your comments just reminded me of a story Moy Yat once told about Yip Man...

Moy Yat and Yip Man were sitting in the back of some restaurant in Hong Kong back in the 1960's drinking tea when two men walked in with long swords in their hands and angry looks on their faces...A very perturbed Moy Yat said to Yip Man: "Sifu, what shall we do - they have swords and we have nothing."

Yip Man's response was: "Don't worry about it. The worst that could happen is that they'll chop our heads off."

(Turned out - they were looking for some people they had a dispute with - but left the restauarant when they realized that they weren't there.)

Matrix

03-28-2005, 04:56 PM

**Sometimes we "sell" things to ourselves because they make us feel better about ourselves; sometimes "instructors" recognize this and promote that view to take their money. It must be comforting when someone is out-of-shape and in poor physical condition to believe that they can nevertheless be a skilled WCK practitioner (and fighter) without having to do the training. It takes a whole lot less work that way. Well, for one, I'm not in poor physical condition, but thank you for the concern about my well being. Personally I am a proponent of strength and aerobic training. I highly recommend it in fact. I just don't use my POV as a blunt instrument to beat others with when they don't share that POV.
I can tell you're a lawyer by the way you twist words to suit your position. However, I stand by my assertion that WCK is not for sale. Sure, someone will take your money but that just pays the rent. You still have to train, even if you're not training up to T_Niehoff standards.

**I'm not saying it all boils down to strength or speed. Reread what I did say: that we need a basis in strength, speed, and other athletic attributes. Royce Gracie at 170 lbs. beat Akebono, the grand sumo champion who weighted 450 lbs. Here's a very real example .....Maybe it's just an anomoly. The fact is that there's only one Royce Gracie. He has an athletic ability that is exceptional. My golf game will never be as good a Tiger Wood's no matter how much a practice....However that doesn't mean that I don't practice.

**Like Royce, your "fighting condition" corresponds to your fighting performance level -- poor conditioning means poor fighting performance level; the better your fighting conditioning, the better your body can perform. This ain't rocket science..Correct. Only Rocket Science is rocket science. Like I said before I'm a proponent of conditioning, I just don't demean those who aren't interested or not capable of doing the same. I highly recommend it. Do you see the difference in the approach?

**It's not an elitist attitude, it's a realistic one. Based on the "reality" of an elitist. You've missed my point entirely. I am NOT advocating being in poor condition. However, I believe that even an unconditioned person can be a better fighter (relatively speaking) through WC, then without it... That's all I'm saying. You seem to see the difference in skill as insignificant because it won't get someone ranked in the world of NHB or meet some other test that satisfies you or you might end up in a situation where it won't work out. That's life, whether we like it or not.

Matrix

03-28-2005, 05:11 PM

While I think that Terence does get carried away sometimes by his own rhetoric, nonetheless, his basic argument is a solid one:.Victor,
In all honesty it's the attitude, not the position that I have a problem with. Cardio and conditioning are important factors, no doubt about it, but I believe fighting skills can be learned even without them. However, it's like sitting on a three-legged stool with one leg missing. It requires a delicate balance, but it can be done. Just be careful. ;)

Matrix

03-28-2005, 05:24 PM

Okay, what if you were cornered with no escape by a pergnant mountain lion? It depends, just HOW pregnant is this mountain lion?? :rolleyes:

Gangsterfist

03-28-2005, 05:27 PM

It depends, just HOW pregnant is this mountain lion?? :rolleyes:

We'll say second trimester, wait a minute, do lions have trimesters? :confused: ?

Knifefighter

03-28-2005, 06:09 PM

Also Did Cheung learn
the system in 7 months? Nope. My instructor did,

I would be quite embarrassed to admit that I was spending money to learn a system from someone who learned it in seven months.

Knifefighter

03-28-2005, 06:13 PM

Who is out of shape? If you huff and puff when doing or fighting with WCK then you are putting too much effort into your
movement!

This is a perfect example of a statement that is so ludicrous it makes WC people the laughing stock of people who actually fight..

Knifefighter

03-28-2005, 06:16 PM

How long does it take to "put a sever hurting on someone"

Depends. Look at it as a continuum... from a 10 year old girl to Tank Abott. The closer on the continuum you get to the Tankster, the longer it’s going to take and the more conditioning you are going to need.

Knifefighter

03-28-2005, 06:18 PM

If a MA relies on how conditioned you are then it is available to only a few...

A combative system (as compared to a "martial art" style that Is a total rip-off) should improve one’s conditioning as a by-product of the training and is available to anyone who is not physically handicapped.

Knifefighter

03-28-2005, 06:21 PM

the fight lasted 45 seconds because of what Belfort
did, not because of his phyical conditioning and ability to last round after round. Yeah, he is a strong guy in good shape and the conditioning he has
done has increase his punching power, but the method he used to attack Silva was the thing that made it effective

The thing that made that Belfort’s attack successful was not the technique, per se, but the fact that he was hugely CONDITIONED in the strength and power department (helped by the fact that he was probably juicing at the time).

Knifefighter

03-28-2005, 06:27 PM

Find any MMA guy or NHB guy that trains the same ammount as me and I may win or I may not. I dont train that much anymore but I certainly go out and test against local people who train daily or triple what I do. I know what demands it takes
on the body! Like I said, I am more than happy to have them (the people I fight) post credential and thoughts.

Jim:
Many of your posts sound like theoretical non-fighter nonsense to me.. If you really are out there mixing it up with MMA guys and not breathing hard, I wouldn’t mind being proven wrong by having them post their names, backgrounds, where they train, and their sparring/fighting experiences with you.

Ultimatewingchun

03-28-2005, 06:29 PM

Dale (Knifefighter) is absolutely correct in his analysis of Vitor Belfort.

anerlich

03-28-2005, 06:37 PM

It depends, just HOW pregnant is this mountain lion??

There's no such thing as being "a little bit pregnant"...

Didn't some guy make the news for fighting off a mountain lion with a penknife earlier this century? Don't know what the deal was pregnancy-wise, though.

Gangsterfist

03-29-2005, 12:08 AM

There's no such thing as being "a little bit pregnant"...

Didn't some guy make the news for fighting off a mountain lion with a penknife earlier this century? Don't know what the deal was pregnancy-wise, though.

I remember an older canadian guy in his 60's killed a cougar that attacked him on his walk home. It lunged on him and he gave it his arm then pulled out a small pocket knife and slit its throat. The man survived. Thats about all I can remember from the article though. He had some bite and scratch marks on his arms, shoulders and on his neck.

CFT

03-29-2005, 04:29 AM

(If you take issue with this - then answer the following: If two wing chun guys fought, both the same age, height, weight, skill level, and having the same intensity regarding the will-to-win...

but one of them is in excellent condition, flexibility, cardio endurance, etc....and the other is very out-of-shape in this regard...WHO WOULD YOU EXPECT TO WIN?)
This scenario is not consistent with your (and Terence et al.) previous posts. Sorry if my memory is faulty, but don't you maintain that "technical" skills go hand in hand with conditioning, i.e. you can't build and maintain the skill level unless the cardio/conditioning is also maintained. Therefore you can't get someone who is skilled and unconditioned; this would be James Roller's view on things. Sorry, just argument for argument's sake :)

But this brings me onto another point. Speaking from a beginner's viewpoint, I would say that cardio is an important element to training. Simply put, you need to be in "good" physical shape to keep up with the training.

I really can't see why there is such an argument here. Any physical activity requires good conditioning to support it. Your technical skills might be a leveler against a less skilled opponent with better conditioning, but that would be it - you would not inherently have the better hand.

03-29-2005, 05:50 AM

Victor, thanks for your acknowledgment, and glad to see you "get it." Your three part problem summary is concise and I appreciate your concern also.

Paul, I'm with you ... assuming you're talking cream pies and not mud pies. ;)

There's no such thing as being "a little bit pregnant"...

Didn't some guy make the news for fighting off a mountain lion with a penknife earlier this century? Don't know what the deal was pregnancy-wise, though.

Doesn't matter. Rumor has it that mountain lion was just a scrub anyway.

Regards,
- kj

Jim Roselando

03-29-2005, 06:01 AM

Dale,

This is a perfect example of a statement that is so ludicrous it makes WC people the laughing stock of people who actually fight..

ROFLOL! Really! It also shows your understanding of of how art functions! Ooops! I forgot! Your not a WCK man. Your a MMA guy who likes to hang around WCK forums and tell everyone how bad WCK is! hehehe Sorry couldn't resist.

Lets face it! MMA guys like to laugh at everything besides MMA/boxing type stuff. I know that for sure! Why? I was around that circle for a few years and have some very good friends who are still training regularly.

Depends. Look at it as a continuum... from a 10 year old girl to Tank Abott. The closer on the continuum you get to the Tankster, the longer it’s going to take and the more conditioning you are going to need.

Your right! So, my skills we either be good enough to hold up or it wont. Some people will not be as easy to beat and some will. Some might not be as big/strong but tough to fight and some of the big guys drop like the little guys. So far, like I said to T, WCK has been good to me. I claim no expertise and know I am a baby but I know one thing for sure! This art has been good for me and for the ammount of time I have to spend training I think its the best thing for me.

Jim:
Many of your posts sound like theoretical non-fighter nonsense to me..

Standard line huh. Yawn!

If you really are out there mixing it up with MMA guys and not breathing hard, I wouldn’t mind being proven wrong by having them post their names, backgrounds, where they train, and their sparring/fighting experiences with you.

I am up for it! Start a thread and lets see who is willing! I would especially love to have all the Real Fighters list who they have fought with and their experiences. You have fought in the ring. No need to post your credentials as you are the ONLY one on this forum who has really gone for a Swim at high level. But, your not a WCK man. Yet, I would like for you to go mix it up with a good WCK man like Gary Lam or someone in your area and then post your thoughts. Why am I saying that? Its real easy for all of us to list our experiences fighting with outsiders from our art but when you ask the MMA guys if they ever fought with any good WCK people it tends to be local hobby type people and not top level WCK sifu.

So, Fighter and non Fighters, who is willing to post the names/credentials/experience of the people they fought? Or will this be another, its time to hide, like when the video thread was being offered to all?

Let me know! This will be interesting!

CFT

03-29-2005, 06:15 AM

Yet, I would like for you to go mix it up with a good WCK man like Gary Lam or someone in your area and then post your thoughts. Why am I saying that? Its real easy for all of us to list our experiences fighting with outsiders from our art but when you ask the MMA guys if they ever fought with any good WCK people it tends to be local hobby type people and not top level WCK sifu.It's not really going to happen though is it Jim? How many MA teachers out there truly without ego and willing to take an "open challenge", apart from the BJJ open door/mat policy?

t_niehoff

03-29-2005, 06:34 AM

Knifefighter,

What makes WCK a "laughing stock" isn't the art/method but its practitioners and their views, in particular those nonfighter/theoreticians and their associated views. Most of these views are the opinions of the ignorant and inexperienced (who just haven't fought to know better). As I indicated to Jim, this is easy enough to see for yourself the veracity of one's opinions if you give yourself a chance. But many folks in WCK won't give themselves that chance because they are afraid to fight and don't want to fight (which is why they began practicing WCK in the first place) -- they want desperately to believe that it's possible to develop good fighting skills without having to fight. But like someone that fears the water and won't get in the pool, they'll never develop into a good swimmer. So they put blinders on as a defense mechanism, which is of course supported by their nonfighting/theoretican sifu (an enabler) who gives them stories, legends, etc. to keep them feeling good. But being a martial artist is about confronting one's fears, and until they face their fear and overcome their fear, they will never develop any skill.

----------------------

matrix wrote:

You've missed my point entirely. I am NOT advocating being in poor condition. However, I believe that even an unconditioned person can be a better fighter (relatively speaking) through WC, then without it... That's all I'm saying.

**As I see it, conditioning is a part of our skill, and that there is a correlation between conditioning and skill. Thus, to be a better fighter, we need better conditioning. Certainly there is validity to what you are saying, that pure technical ability can make us a better fighter. And against someone unskilled, someone that doesn't pressure us, that may be suffficient for us to win. But that's a relatively low-level of skill. To develop significant levels of skill requires that be able to deal with greater demands upon us, and that requires conditioning.

You seem to see the difference in skill as insignificant because it won't get someone ranked in the world of NHB or meet some other test that satisfies you or you might end up in a situation where it won't work out. That's life, whether we like it or not.

**No, what I'm saying is that there is a correlation between skill level and conditioning so that world-class level fighters are in world-class-level condition, highly skilled folks are in high-level condition, and poorly skilled folks are in poor-level condition.

The fact is that there's only one Royce Gracie. He has an athletic ability that is exceptional. My golf game will never be as good a Tiger Wood's no matter how much a practice....However that doesn't mean that I don't practice.

**Actually, Royce is no anomoly -- there are many in the family that (even Royce will acknowledge) are better skilled, and many others outside the family that are better. Royce is probably the least athletic of the bunch. But his results show us what training can do (which is why he is such an inspiration). His and others' in BJJ exploits have repeatedly proven that their method of fighting will permit a well-trained smaller person can defeat a larger, stronger, skilled fighter. So when they make that claim it's not a theory, it's been proven. In WCK when we hear that same claim, it is theory.

sihing

03-29-2005, 10:06 AM

This scenario is not consistent with your (and Terence et al.) previous posts. Sorry if my memory is faulty, but don't you maintain that "technical" skills go hand in hand with conditioning, i.e. you can't build and maintain the skill level unless the cardio/conditioning is also maintained. Therefore you can't get someone who is skilled and unconditioned; this would be James Roller's view on things. Sorry, just argument for argument's sake :)

But this brings me onto another point. Speaking from a beginner's viewpoint, I would say that cardio is an important element to training. Simply put, you need to be in "good" physical shape to keep up with the training.

I really can't see why there is such an argument here. Any physical activity requires good conditioning to support it. Your technical skills might be a leveler against a less skilled opponent with better conditioning, but that would be it - you would not inherently have the better hand.

CFT,

The argument in my POV is not concerned with people in your position. You have stated as a beginner that any physical activity requires good conditioning to support it? Yes this is true, especially at the learning/beginning stages of training. What about one that already has the skills and doesn't participate in cardio anymore but teaches and interacts with the students (playing chi-sao, and random combat drills, but not on a regularly planned schedule) on a daily basis like myself? I stretch almost on a daily basis, workout with the weights 3X a week most of the time, and go through forms and such with the students regularly. Is it impossible to maintain my skills this way after years and years of hard regular training? IMO I don't think so, and my plan is to maintain the skills. Like I have said before I am living proof it can work, and I know others that do the same thing and still maintain the skills they have. Obviously if one wants to improve they will have to put more work in, but since it is few and far the times I have had to use WC lately the question I ask is why? Have fast is fast enough, how powerful do the punches/kick have to be, etc.. I'm personally satisfied with my skills and that I can "Compete" with anyone here on this forum, because in my mind there are other ways to learn and progress, but when ever anything out of the box is proposed and/or not tried or accomplished by others on this forum it is shot down with intensity because "It just can't be" just because (that's always the answer with nothing to back it up).

James

t_niehoff

03-29-2005, 11:57 AM

sihing,

Why don't you come to Victor's get-together and show us your "living proof"?

Jim Roselando

03-29-2005, 01:24 PM

T wrote,

What makes WCK a "laughing stock" isn't the art/method but its practitioners and their views, in particular those nonfighter/theoreticians and their associated views. Most of these views are the opinions of the ignorant and inexperienced (who just haven't fought to know better). As I indicated to Jim, this is easy enough to see for yourself the veracity of one's opinions if you give yourself a chance. But many folks in WCK won't give themselves that chance because they are afraid to fight and don't want to fight (which is why they began practicing WCK in the first place) -- they want desperately to believe that it's possible to develop good fighting skills without having to fight. Sounds good! As a matter of fact we can say this is the problem with most arts and lets not just single out WCK. Anything besides MMA/Boxing/Grappling of course. Right?

So, since you swim regularly then why not share a "who you swim with list" and have them do a nice little write up. This will be good for all of us. I am up for it. Lets see who else is willing and we can all start a new thread and post the stuff there. This is one good way to see who is swimming with good swimmers and who is doing the doggy paddle! Wouldn't you agree?

;)

I really hope all the KFO fighters that really enjoy labels for others who they think are not doing WCK take part in this. Since they are fighting regularly then the people they fight with should not be hard to get in touch with for a little write up!

But, I doubt anyone will take part in this. Just like the video thread. Only a handfull had the cookies to send in footage.

Keep me posted and let me know when we need to have the write ups in!

Knifefighter

03-29-2005, 09:03 PM

Lets face it! MMA guys like to laugh at everything besides MMA/boxing type stuff.

MMA fighters laugh at unrealistic claims that can’t be backed up. Show us that it works and we’ll heartily embrace it.

ROFLOL! Really! It also shows your understanding of of how art functions!

You have an art that allows you to fight against other equally skilled people without breathing hard or using much exertion? See what I mean about unrealistic claims.

If there was this secret WC society out there that was able to do this, it wouldn’t be secret for long. All the MMA fighters would be clamoring to learn it. I would love to be able to fight against others who are as skilled as I am without using much energy or needing conditioning.

So, since you swim regularly then why not share a "who you swim with list" and have them do a nice little write up. This will be
good for all of us. I am up for it. Lets see who else is willing and we can all start a new thread and post the stuff there. This is
one good way to see who is swimming with good swimmers and who is doing the doggy paddle! Wouldn't you agree?

You are the one making a big deal about this. Let’s hear who these MMA fighters are that you are sparring against with whom you don’t have to exert yourself.

Gangsterfist

03-29-2005, 09:06 PM

Knifefighter-

Okay, but in all fairness you are saying that an MMA fighter COULD NOT adopt wing chun concept into their fighting?

Just because its not done, does not mean it cannot be done.

Matrix

03-29-2005, 09:21 PM

Thus, to be a better fighter, we need better conditioning.Terence,
I absolutely agree with you on this. Better conditioning has a high coorelation to fighting ability for someone who is already technically skilled.

** In WCK when we hear that same claim, it is theory. OK, that's fine by me.

Thanks,

anerlich

03-29-2005, 09:35 PM

Just because its not done, does not mean it cannot be done.

But it does tend to indicate that there are other ways which are easier or more effective to implement or learn.

If it ever is done, that bandwagon will be crushed into its constituent subatomic particles from the weight of the hordes trying to jump onto it.

I thought the argument was about conditioning and Wing Chun, not WC and MMA like the other 50 threads on the subject.

Knifefighter

03-29-2005, 09:35 PM

Okay, but in all fairness you are saying that an MMA fighter COULD NOT adopt wing chun concept into their fighting?

Any "WC concepts" that could be applied to other systems are already there if they are functional.

Boxing uses jabs and crosses, both of which are straight line punches that come up the middle. Parrying and hitting at the same time are also common boxing principles. Muay Thai uses a straight line push kick. Some boxers use a type of pak sao to disrupt the opponent and get inside. Boxing and Muay Thai have a boatload of inside fighting techniques. The Muay Thai plum occupies the opponent’s centerline and shuts down his ability to defend it.

MMA fighters make use of all of these things because they are universal concepts that are realistic and will work in any standing fighting system.

However, thinking that you will be an effective fighter by dogmatically sticking to WC principles, working the centerline at all costs, and facing your opponent straight on in a square stance standing pigeon towed with your ass pulled up into your stomach is a completely different matter.

sihing

03-29-2005, 10:03 PM

sihing,

Why don't you come to Victor's get-together and show us your "living proof"?

Cleveland is more than a 25 hours drive for me from Calgary, and a plane ticket is simply too expensive. Financial reasons plain and simple, if the event was much closer then it would be consider, so basically it is not worth the expense to go down to Cleveland to have to prove anything.

The basic argument is does or doesn't conditioning play a role in fighting. Yes and No. If the skill is the same, say two equally skilled WC guys then speed &/or strength would play a MORE important role. When it is WC vs. another stylist then IMO the skill sets are not the same. WC does not teach the same skills as other Martial Arts, so a highly skilled WC man would be more EFFECTIVE in a fight then most other Fighters from other MA, IMO (remember the story of Bruce Lee & his first demo, James Demile was there and he was the boxing champ of the Navy/Army or something like that and a accomplished streetfighter with many many fights under his belt. Bruce called him up to demo with and told James to hit him with anything and James couldn't land a shot because Bruce tied him up with his WC skills) . But when in competitions you have rules, so therefore it takes longer to finish the job so therefore conditioning does play a more important role, especially when the skills are very similar, as I believe the MMA guys are similar in fighting technique and philosophies between themselves.

When Royce Gracie hit the scene he was able to defeat larger more powerful, conditioned fighters on skills alone, although he was in good shape also. This was due to what he was doing (something totally different from what most fighters at that time had seen) so he had the element of SURPRISE on his side, which is a very powerful fighting tool SURPRISE is, and great skill in using those surprise concepts and techniques. Once people got used to what he was doing the success rate of GJJ/BJJ lessened and they lost more fights, but it is still an effective art regardless. Otherwise how did he as a 180-190lbs man defeat larger conditioned fighters??

Now, just to get things straight from my POV, I'm not talking about lazy people with absolutely no conditioning beating up conditioned fighters. I myself am not lazy, as I do spend 8 hours a day at the kwoon, so it is not like I am saying that someone that learns the skills of Wing Chun after year and years of training and then stops totally training, learning and teaching, will maintain their skills, as they will deteriorate. I myself took some time off over the last 6 years and was only at the school a couple of times a week, teaching, and I noticed a slight decrease in skills, but as soon as I got back into it, through the association of being around it and teaching WC and moving with it again, the skills have come back, better than before. Now if I really wanted to do something with it I could improve it much more with a conditioning program reinforcing it all, but like I have said before I don't feel the need to do that for myself, others may feel differently for themselves and that's great too. But to say that WC is solely dependent on physical attributes to fight with then I must still disagree with those thoughts on the subject. I've always been taught that one of the main reasons why WC was created was to give people a set of fighting/self defense tools that will always be there for them, regardless of their individual deficiencies or disabilities. It works the same for the big guys with powerful builds as well as the small women with weaker bodies as nothing as to be adapted/changed for these two different physical types of people when they learn WC. If you have to change something about your Martial Art when you teach it to people based on their individual size or strength levels then you do not have a effective MA, IMO, as it is not for everyone equally.

James

sihing

03-29-2005, 10:11 PM

MMA fighters laugh at unrealistic claims that can’t be backed up. Show us that it works and we’ll heartily embrace it.

You have an art that allows you to fight against other equally skilled people without breathing hard or using much exertion? See what I mean about unrealistic claims.

If there was this secret WC society out there that was able to do this, it wouldn’t be secret for long. All the MMA fighters would be clamoring to learn it. I would love to be able to fight against others who are as skilled as I am without using much energy or needing conditioning.

You are the one making a big deal about this. Let’s hear who these MMA fighters are that you are sparring against with whom you don’t have to exert yourself.

Dale,
You live in California, why don't you go down to Ernie's school at Gary Lam's place or Boztepe's place and challenge one of them to see how effective WC is. They use mostly/ if not exclusively WC principals in their fighting so it would be a fair contest and they are respected as good fighters at those camps?

If I lived in LA, at this stage of my development I would have definetly by now have visited a few other WC schools just to check out what they are doing and how it relates or is different from my current method, as we up here in Calgary have little else beside a couple of other WC lineages beside my Sifu's own.

James

Ultimatewingchun

03-29-2005, 11:12 PM

"Any "WC concepts" that could be applied to other systems are already there if they are functional.

Boxing uses jabs and crosses, both of which are straight line punches that come up the middle. Parrying and hitting at the same time are also common boxing principles. Muay Thai uses a straight line push kick. Some boxers use a type of pak sao to disrupt the opponent and get inside. Boxing and Muay Thai have a boatload of inside fighting techniques. The Muay Thai plum occupies the opponent’s centerline and shuts down his ability to defend it.

MMA fighters make use of all of these things because they are universal concepts that are realistic and will work in any standing fighting system.

However, thinking that you will be an effective fighter by dogmatically sticking to WC principles, working the centerline at all costs, and facing your opponent straight on in a square stance...is a completely different matter."

WANT TO PICK UP on these remarks by Dale...because he's onto something here.

Wing Chun vs. Boxing, Kickboxing:

Pak on the outside of his very straight punches
Bil on the inside of his slightly rounded (or very rounded) headshots
jong/tan on the inside of his slightly rounded (semi-straight) body shots
garn sao on the inside of his low rounded punches
jut on the outside (or dropping down on) his low very straight punches...

while looking for counterstrikes...and while looking for blatant attacking strikes WITH HIP AND SHOULDER ROTATION and up-on-your-toes footwork from the longer and medium ranges (distances)...

and while NOT facing square on (unless and until you've attained a very close position)...

and using straight front kicks off either the front or rear leg (depending upon the distance and the target that's available)...and the occasional roundhouse kick...

and getting an occasional trap or lop sao...or a chain punch followup after you've landed a strike cleanly when in close...and the occasional po-pai unbalancing/throwing straight ahead attack...

and an occasional sweep of his lead leg...and occasional elbow strike...

this is how Wing Chun can be competitive against these two arts.

Against Muay-Thai clinch, elbow, and kneeing tactics...there are some wing chun moves to be worked - but at this point more of a crosstrained strategy will be needed - as you are now approaching a grappling scenario.

Gangsterfist

03-29-2005, 11:26 PM

Good stuff keep it coming, perhaps we can find a bit of wing chun here and there.

sihing

03-29-2005, 11:33 PM

Good stuff keep it coming, perhaps we can find a bit of wing chun here and there.

It's Good Stuff when someone proposes to bring in outside concepts and techniques because they think Wing Chun is lacking in certain areas of combat?? :eek: So now to compensate for a lacking ability to deal with outside contact range threats I have to learn Boxing to deal with that, and also I have to deal with the possibility of being taken to the ground (which of course is almost guaranteed without even a winks notice) I have to supplement that with BJJ/Sambo or Wrestling training. All in all it looks like someone now has to learn at least what, 3 or 4 different Martial Arts to be effective? Or just JKD. LOL.

I say do what you please, think what you please but please do not include my WC on that "what is lacking in WC" list....

James

Ultimatewingchun

03-29-2005, 11:45 PM

What's lacking is YOUR WILLINGNESS to back up your claims about yourself and your criticisms of other people's approach to Wing Chun.

It's so easy to be a keyboard warrior.

sihing

03-29-2005, 11:51 PM

What's lacking is YOUR WILLINGNESS to back up your claims about yourself and your criticisms of other people's approach to Wing Chun.

It's so easy to be a keyboard warrior.

This isn't another approach to WC, this is JKD philosophy which is the next forum down.

My unwillingness to back up my claims? I've shown more video on this forum than you Victor, and many times more than Terence or Dale, to which we have seen nothing from in terms of physical evidence, and they have at times put down others opinions in a beligerent and sometimes disrespectful manner.

James

Jim Roselando

03-30-2005, 05:09 AM

Dale,

You are the one making a big deal about this. Let’s hear who these MMA fighters are that you are sparring against with whom you don’t have to exert yourself.

Why am I making a big deal about this? Hmmmmm! Think for a second huh!

Because everyone is running around telling everyone that they have no experience to know how stuff works in reality or against other good people. Isn't this whats going on here lately. Isn't that the standard line these days?

Well, you and I both know all this labelling is the wagon a lot of people are jumping on so why not see who is training and who isn't training against decent people. Certainly all the people who are "really" fighting on a regular basis can provide a nice list easily. I am sure the people they train with on a regular basis would not mind sharing some thoughts/credentials. Its real easy to insult, name calling, label, this or that. Real easy. BUT, when you ask to get some references or list (or show some sort of clip of them doing WCK) of who and what their are credentials of the people they and others train with thats such an unreasonable thing? Why is that? Its only unreasonable if they are not in contact with the outside world.

So, as I said before, I am up for it! Its real easy. But! Take a look at how many others are up for it! Take a look at how many of the KFO Fighters are up for it? Anyone else reply to this? Nope! Just what I thought!

But! Let me know when you guys want to do this! I am not the one who is labelling and since I am a theory guy with no experience then the people I train against must be scrubs. Well, lets see who's training with good people or who is talking.

Also, I like to know when you are going to be visiting a good WCK sifu like Gary Lam or someone of that level to test out your ability against this crappy art of ours. Or, are you just facing WCK scrubs like all of us are facing no talent martial art or street bums.

Regards,

Jim Roselando

03-30-2005, 05:14 AM

James wrote:

You live in California, why don't you go down to Ernie's school at Gary Lam's place or Boztepe's place and challenge one of them to see how effective WC is. They use mostly/ if not exclusively WC principals in their fighting so it would be a fair contest and they are respected as good fighters at those camps?

Fat Chance!

Crimsonking wrote:

c) The Wing Chun approach is to attempt to minimise our reliance on conditioning by developing skill. We make the (theoretical) assumption that we are always facing a numerically superior (stronger, faster, heavier, fitter...) opponent. For example for Royce vs Akebono - conditioning would be a game of catch up with Akebono that he'd never win. He did win the skill game. Thought experiment - what's an asthmatic to do?

d) Conditioning is venue specific. We've been over this before - conditioning for a streetfight is not the same thing as conditioning for 2 minute rounds.

e) There is some conditioning byproduct of Wing Chun - train your punches, kicks, footwork etc seriously. This is not the same as the extensive conditioning required for sport fighting.

You must be a theory guy! hehehehahaha Just kidding!

Nice post! On the money!

Regards,

Ultimatewingchun

03-30-2005, 06:48 AM

Ernie

03-30-2005, 08:55 AM

Dale,
You live in California, why don't you go down to Ernie's school at Gary Lam's place or Boztepe's place and challenge one of them to see how effective WC is. They use mostly/ if not exclusively WC principals in their fighting so it would be a fair contest and they are respected as good fighters at those camps?

If I lived in LA, at this stage of my development I would have definetly by now have visited a few other WC schools just to check out what they are doing and how it relates or is different from my current method, as we up here in Calgary have little else beside a couple of other WC lineages beside my Sifu's own.

James

Personally I would love to hang out with Dale as I would with any of you guys
Thing is I am not in the camp of wing Chun can make you walk on water and linage and Sifu make you a great fighter by way of certificates and silk belts or DNA or how close you are to yip mans left nut .

That’s fantasy Fu!

I have spent time in front of pros, BJJ, Vale Tudo, Etc
Have felt and seen what that is like , and in the end it has very little to do with the style , as personal skill elevates the margin between this or that type of punch or kick gets very thin.

It comes down to the person, not the system, Sure the system provides sound training methods for development of skill , but that’s just one small part , it’s easy to learn to drive , but driving a race car or 4 wheel , or semi truck all have different reqirements . Have to specialize.

How do you specialize no other way around it but to get into that area and work out your skills , if you don’t you will be a back seat driver or worse a guy on a moped in a formula one race .
Which is what most belt, certificate, fantasy fu guy’s look like when the get in front of a skilled in shape mentally and physically conditioned fighter?

Problem is people keep spreading propaganda and speaking outside of there personal abilities. Sifu says, or yip man, LJ, what ever person once did.

This has nothing to do with what you can do today, not with 5 months of prep [because even after X amount of prep you still lack fighting experience it takes years!]

More fantasy Fu

If people were just honest and no Spin doctors we could move on to more constructive conversations, I for one can easily say though my Skill have grown considerably over the years, I am not in the hardened condition I was in when I was sparring a lot, my timing distance power are all much better under casual to moderate pressure, not sure how I would respond under intense pressure, might choke up might not don’t know for sure since I have not done any hard sparring for quite some time.

Different shock to the body and mind!

As I have said many times before there are those that stay with in the [training system] and those that go out and try to apply. Different strokes for different folks

Problem is when there is a lack of honesty and too much hype,

In a fight there is only one certainty and that is uncertainty
If your trying to prove that wing chun is better , or Bjj is better or thumb wrestling is better then IMO you are a fool and blinded by the trees in the forest

only the individual will be better on that given day .

Gangsterfist

03-30-2005, 09:39 AM

Ernie

03-30-2005, 09:58 AM

Ernie,

How about a fighter with wing chun attributes. Things like covering the center, dropping elbows, sensitivity, knowing how to control and crowd the space. These are not exclusive to wing chun, but they are part of wing chun. These attributes, along with physical abilities, and natural talent (some people are just natrually tough, and are natural fighters) make up what kind of fighter you are.

Wing chun attributes Hmmm
wing chun doesn't fight it's a training system that gives you short cuts and exposure to skill development , idea's that ''should'' give you an advantage in position timing and controlling the flow of a fight

but all systems that are combat tested will give you there version of timing ,power, position and so on

some just use different engines , each engine supports it's type of power transfer kick punch , take down , lock choke ,,,,,,,

so it really comes down to [in a ring/mat enviroment ] flight time of the individual , natural ability . trained attributes speed , timing , power , adaptability

in [ a street enviroment ] much of those ring skills transfer over but so does ring and mat focus which is a bad thing , tunnel vision and ego these things will get you killed in the street . you need to be smart and lucky

this has nothing to do with what system you train and how you imagine a fight will go

so back to your question , all you can do is be the best you can be at what you like , take an honest look at yourself and ask yourself what you want from your training then make a plan to get it . just following along in a system doing what your told will only get you so far

take control , and put yourself in uncomfrotable positions , get to know yourself , find and embrace your weakness

there is no wing chun fighter , that will trap you in the training system , there is only you and how you develop the skills and idea's that make sense to you , based on your individual experience ;)

sihing

03-30-2005, 10:27 AM

"My unwillingness to back up my claims? I've shown more video on this forum than you Victor, and many times more than Terence or Dale..." (JR)

YOU'VE SHOWN NOTHING but contrived and rehearsed chi sao and sparring drills against people who didn't even come close to actually trying to hit or kick you.

But enough response to your attempts to hijack yet another thread and turn it into the "James Roller Amateur Hour" - brought to us by Brian Lewadny's 7-10 months of training under William Cheung.

No thank you.

Back to our regularly scheduled program...

Contrived and rehearsed chi-sao? The one video was a display of random chi-sao, so what are you talking about? The other videos that I described as demos? Demos are demos, and yes they are planned but does that mean that anyone with no skill right off the street can do the same thing? No, it still takes a particular amount of skill to perform a demo to a high level, not that it necessarily means I can fight if that is all I can do. Your Kung Fu brother Phil shows pre-rehersed drills on video all the time of himself and his students, how come your not on his case for the samething? Because you know him personally and know his skills are real, right? Well you know nothing of me except what I want you to know on this forum, by what I post.

Your funny Victor, I disagree with your posts and say the reasons why I disagree and you always come back with a personal response about how I have no skills or that my real motive is to glorify my Sifu, can't you do any better than this? I say that the WC I know can has everything within in it to teach someone to deal with a boxer or grappler, how successfully they do that is like Ernie says up to the INDIVIDUAL. As a teacher my only responsibility is to pass down the information and try my best to allow the students to understand what is being taught them. You think that outside influences are the key to WC success against them and I disagree with this as it would take longer to learn how to defend one's self if that were the case. I would have to learn WC, boxing, and a grappling art to be an effective fighter in your book, maybe 10 to 14 years of training and practicing? Way to long to achieve effectiveness if you ask me. It's all there in the "training system" provided by the WC system.

Ernie,

Good post again my friend. I agree in the end it is up to the individual to put it all together, and make it work for them. When you are confronted on the street, the goal is not perfect WC movement or to prove anything, but to get out of the situation alive and safe, plain and simple. WC provides some tools to do this successfully, and IMO a set of very effective tools at that, different from what allot of MA teach. High skill is high skill, and anyone with any quality skill in a MA or fighting art is dangerous, so the worse thing to do is anticipate an outcome or over estimate your skills. Confidence is one thing, c0ckyness is another.

James

spiraler

03-30-2005, 11:02 AM

anerlich

03-30-2005, 03:31 PM

You live in California, why don't you go down to Ernie's school at Gary Lam's place or Boztepe's place and challenge one of them to see how effective WC is. They use mostly/ if not exclusively WC principals in their fighting so it would be a fair contest and they are respected as good fighters at those camps?

Fat Chance!

Leaving aside the stupidity of kwoon challenges (which Emin has gone on record more or less apologising for in the infamous case), the people you are asking Dale to challenge are by all accounts at the elite level in their MA's. Dale has made no such claims about his own abilities.

It would be reasonable to expect James and Jim to be willing to visit the top BJJ Black Belt in their state or province and issue a similar challenge at the target's academy, or go to a Dog Brothers gathering and go one on one with sticks using butterfly sword techniques with Eric Knaus or Marc Denny (Dale is a Dog Brother, IIRC). A fair proportion of BJJ academies will accept challenges, though usually the purple belts are expected to deal with them so that the higher belts can deal with more purposeful matters like teaching students.

Still think it's a good idea and reasonable request, chaps? When are you planning on going?

Jim Roselando

03-30-2005, 04:38 PM

A-lich,

Leaving aside the stupidity of kwoon challenges (which Emin has gone on record more or less apologising for in the infamous case), the people you are asking Dale to challenge are by all accounts at the elite level in their MA's. Dale has made no such claims about his own abilities.

It would be reasonable to expect James and Jim to be willing to visit the top BJJ Black Belt in their state or province and issue a similar challenge at the target's academy, or go to a Dog Brothers gathering and go one on one with sticks using butterfly sword techniques with Eric Knaus or Marc Denny (Dale is a Dog Brother, IIRC). A fair proportion of BJJ academies will accept challenges, though usually the purple belts are expected to deal with them so that the higher belts can deal with more purposeful matters like teaching students.

Still think it's a good idea and reasonable request, chaps? When are you planning on going?

Are you reading the thread or the posts on KFO in the last year??? Who are the people on this forum telling everyone how lousy WCK is? Who are the guys telling everyone to go fight a MMA/NHB/BJJ guys to see if their able to use WCK? Who are the people saying WCK is the laughing stock? Who are the people telling everyone they are fighting scrubs? Well, why dont these people go test their stuff against guys who train hard and have good skill in WCK? Or are they only fighting WCK scrubs?

I believe in WCK and think its a nice vehicle for development. It has been good to me! I dont run around telling people their MA ready is full of crap like they do. I dont run around labelling people, name calling, insulting etc.. So, do I think its a good idea for them to taste a top level WCK person? Absolutely! None of this is about a Kwoon challenge. Its no different than going down to the BJJ club and having a friendly match.

Now, I know you enjoy a good debate but right is right and wrong is wrong. Your trying to put James and I in the same category as the guys who can dish it out but not hold themselves to the same level of their own dishing out is funny. I would not expect that of you. I would expect this from a Troll.

This conversation is over for me. The next time I post will be when all the fighters are ready to list out the credentials of the people they are competing against. But! You and I both know that will never happen. If it does, count me in!

Ciao,

PaulH

03-30-2005, 05:06 PM

Jim,

You beam me up whenever you have a fight with Mr. Spock! How you manage to remain unscathed from the Vulcan touch proves beyond a shadow of right and wrong the enduring power of WC chi sau skills and sensitivity! =D

---------------------------------
Don't take life too serious. You'll never get out of it alive.

anerlich

03-30-2005, 08:28 PM

None of this is about a Kwoon challenge. Its no different than going down to the BJJ club and having a friendly match.

James suggested that Dale go to Gary Lam/s or Emin's and challenge them. It's up there in black and white. And unequivocal.

You said "Fat Chance!" You could have been indicating that this would never happen ... or implying that Dale wouldn't have the guts. Care to clarify?

Now, I know you enjoy a good debate but right is right and wrong is wrong.

Yeah, and James suggesting a kwoon challenge is wrong. You suggesting that he said something else is also wrong.

Your trying to put James and I in the same category as the guys who can dish it out but not hold themselves to the same level of their own dishing out is funny.

Good, I was taking the p1ss. The initial suggestion deserved ridicule. I merely turned the situation around so that you and James were placed in the situation in which you place Dale, and now you squeal about being misrepresented.

At least as regards forum jibes, it does indeed look like you can dish it out but not take it.

I would not expect that of you. I would expect this from a Troll.

James started it, you chimed in with "Fat Chance", I called both of you on it, and I'm a troll?

Whatever. Unlike some, I can take it as well as dish it out. :p :p :p

This conversation is over for me.

And this would affect me how?

Ultimatewingchun

03-30-2005, 09:07 PM

Jim Roselando:

I think you're backing the wrong horse here. (James Roller)

For all his outspoken and sometimes-over-the-top rhetoric...got to give Terence credit for being willing to come to Cleveland in May.

How about yourself? Are you coming?

It's a great opportunity for folks of all different lineages (and points of view) to see what's what...and to do it in a friendly atmosphere.

Knifefighter

03-30-2005, 09:30 PM

Also, I like to know when you are going to be visiting a good WCK sifu like Gary Lam or someone of that level to test out your ability against this crappy art of ours.

You guys do have a point. I have done quite a bit of smack talking towards WC. Since everyone says that Gary is the man as far as WC is concerned, maybe I do need to step up to the plate here to check out what most of you consider to be a real WC master.

Ernie, I believe you have said that he regularly mixes it up with outside guys. How does this usually work?

sihing

03-30-2005, 09:44 PM

First of all, I'm not the one going on MMA forums and telling them there stuff is sh!t, Dale is doing just that. So, since he is in a place with plenty of good WC talent, why doesn't he test it out for himself and see, as he has said many times he hasn't seen a effective performance yet of WC. Now maybe the word "challenge" was a poor choice by me because honestly that was not what I meant for Dale to do. Rather, he should go down to one of the schools mentioned and investigate and find out what WC/WT is and experience it for himself. If the two of us lived closer together I would have no problem getting together with anyone to show them how the WC works and the why's also, THIS IS NOT A CHALLENGE but more of an exploratory exchange between two Martial Artist learning about one another. It's never been a question about being all knowing or not being able learning things from other Martial Artists, as each of us can teach the other something, the question in my mind is what they are going to teach me, is it effective or not. Sometimes the only way to find out is through face to face contact with someone knowledgeable in that area of Martial Arts.

Now Jim Roselando has a good point, and since I'm not the one bad mouthing WC and it's training practices, because we all know that it is up to the individual to make it work and put the work in, he asks those that look down on WC effectiveness and are sparring/fighting top quality guys from other MA to put down their qualifications and such to let us all know who exactly they are competing against. Terence always talks about NHB people this and that, well Terence who exactly are you talking about and what are there competitive results/rank that you go against on a regular basis, or is all of your talk just hypothesis. Dale as we all know is a competitor or former competitor in the NHB world, so maybe as I mentioned before he should explore a good WC school where he is from and experience it that way, I'm sure Ernie would love the practice and the meeting as he is always open to encounters like this. As for Victor, no comment, as I'm through wasting time on him. Jim and I eagerly await these lists of names of the top quality fighters you are all competing against.

As for myself going to a local BJJ gym, I know the highest ranking BJJ guy in the province is a Brown Belt and I think he is in Calgary. It sounds like a good opportunity and maybe I will do just that. Not to challenge the style or the instructor, because that is just Ego, but just to open my eyes a bit more, because quite frankly the last thing I need on my plate right now is an assault charge.

James

anerlich

03-30-2005, 10:58 PM

Now maybe the word "challenge" was a poor choice by me because honestly that was not what I meant for Dale to do.

There's not a lot of "maybe" about the poor choice of words.

What you proposed in the post above is a very good suggestion, though.

I don't put Wing Chun down, that would make me a hypocrite. I do get annoyed when people claim it is better than "Brand X" when they are ignorant of what "Brand X" entails. You can't lift yourself up by dragging everyone else down.

Ernie

03-30-2005, 11:13 PM

You guys do have a point. I have done quite a bit of smack talking towards WC. Since everyone says that Gary is the man as far as WC is concerned, maybe I do need to step up to the plate here to check out what most of you consider to be a real WC master.

Ernie, I believe you have said that he regularly mixes it up with outside guys. How does this usually work?

Email me bro , no need to get sucked into other peoples head games , you are always welcome to come check Gary or me out , but we don't do the whole robot stick figure man sau wu sau 60/40 big toe must be here , technique based wing chun , nor do we do we try and ''wing chun '' people , thats more of that robot crap
fighting is fighting , sparring is sparring , training is training

Gary was a professional fighter and wing chun/thai coach
he laughs at guys that try and use '''wing chun techniques '' in a fight , like a bunch of drones trying to make a circle fit in a square ;)

Gary is not in sparring shape any more about 50 pounds over wieght but he doesn't mind moving around and expressing idea's
i got a bum arm right now but i'll move around with you as well , but the whole trying to prove wing chun is this or that thing is stupid ,

if you really want to do some research , as i said your more then welcome no head trips or ego's to worry about :D

PS . as for [wing chun master ] gary would bust up laughing if anyone said that to him , he is just a man like any other , good days and bad days , had his ass kicked and done his share of dishing it out . what he has is real experience which very very few have .
so please leave the master junk for the fantasy fu crowd ;)

Jim Roselando

03-31-2005, 06:59 AM

A-lich,

James suggested that Dale go to Gary Lam/s or Emin's and challenge them. It's up there in black and white. And unequivocal.

Words games are childish. We all know what we are talking about. No different for the WC theory guys to go to the local BJJ or MMA club for a challenge. Challenge, Test of skill, Spar, controlled fighting, whatever you want to call it. Is not an all out brawl where people hate each other. People feel WC sucks and WC facing is stupid and this or that should be confident enough to face a good WCK person and show them how easily they can control or take down this weak art.

You said "Fat Chance!" You could have been indicating that this would never happen ... or implying that Dale wouldn't have the guts. Care to clarify?

I say it will never happen. Yup! Why? Because the people who enjoy insulting our art like to base their views off the the common stuff they see versus the good players. In any art good is good and bad is bad. Ask them to test their opinion against a good player and see if they will? Just like you ask all the real fighters who insult and name call everyone to tell us who they fight and as expected no replies!

Thats exactly what I meant! Nothing about violence but everythign about holding themsleves to the same standard they hold everyone else!

Yeah, and James suggesting a kwoon challenge is wrong. You suggesting that he said something else is also wrong.

Just holding everyone to the same standard. Going to a school to test out your level is not the same as a Gong Sao or Street Fight. Whats good for others is good for those who spew it out.

Good, I was taking the p1ss. The initial suggestion deserved ridicule. I merely turned the situation around so that you and James were placed in the situation in which you place Dale, and now you squeal about being misrepresented.

Oh really? So, basically you did what I did right? But, now you are trying to reverse it back. Please look back in any post from me and tell me where I insult anyone or tell them they can't fight or they are scrubs or they are a theory man. When you find it please post it and I will agree with you.

At least as regards forum jibes, it does indeed look like you can dish it out but not take it.

ROFLOL! Yeah, thats me!

James started it, you chimed in with "Fat Chance", I called both of you on it, and I'm a troll?

Who started what? Who are the people for the last year who have labelled and name called everyone? Just holding people to the same stuff they feel like dishing out and you and I both know the real fighters who insult our art will not search out a good WC player to prove how lousy this art is. When they do, I will admit I am wrong. A troll would automatically reply to a particular persons posts on a regular basis without thought.

Whatever. Unlike some, I can take it as well as dish it out.

ROFLOL

And this would affect me how?

You will need a new person to debate now! hahahahahehehehe Since thats what you and I have been doing lately. Which is cool but when an intelectual debate gets side tracked it is no longer worthy of chat.

andreww

03-31-2005, 07:47 AM

Hi.

I like the idea that one can deal with an opponent/s quickly and efficiently, (and if allowed some romance) effortlessly, however in my experience this is not the case, unless one is extremely lucky.

IMO, whilst fighting the body develops, transmits and modifies massive amounts of force/s, and that those forces are being both intrinsic and extrinsic to the body, this weather one is skilful or not.

I believe that one best condition themselves so that:

1. one is able to train at and maintain an optimal level of training that allows for a constant physical expression of these forces.

2. one can recover from the rigours of training, and be ready for successive sessions without increase risk of injury.

3. if one does become involved in a real fight and because real fighting is a highly athletic event, one best be prepared for it, given that adaptations occur because of specific demands.

There are many sorts of conditioning programs, I think it behoves the instructor and student to decide the aim of the training and if required, implement a conditioning program that is commensurate with the goals of said training.

Regards Andrew W.

sihing

03-31-2005, 10:08 AM

Setting up challenges for other people on your behalf - now that's classy. What's that expression i'm looking for... mo duk?

Anerlich - as for elite level, isn't Knifefighter a bjj black belt with something like 20 years experience? IIRC...

Knifefighter - i suggest you take Ernie up on his offer, they seem like a cool bunch to hang out with. You should ignore third parties trying to set up some sort of challenge.

Leave the ego's at home, and everybody will have a good time, kids.

Hey Crimsonking or who ever you are, what's the difference between me telling Dale to go to a WC school where he lives and test it out (like I said in my post, challenge was the wrong word to use and I admitted my mistake, that's class admitting mistakes) and Terence telling everyone on a daily basis to go visit a NHB gym to get our asses handed to us? If you are going to try and be the high & mighty that you are portraying yourself to be then do it on an equal basis to all who deserve it. Thank you.

James

Ernie

03-31-2005, 10:30 AM

Hey Crimsonking or who ever you are, what's the difference between me telling Dale to go to a WC school where he lives and test it out (like I said in my post, challenge was the wrong word to use and I admitted my mistake, that's class admitting mistakes) and Terence telling everyone on a daily basis to go visit a NHB gym to get our asses handed to us? If you are going to try and be the high & mighty that you are portraying yourself to be then do it on an equal basis to all who deserve it. Thank you.

James

James ,
if i may butt in :D
the difference is simple for Dale to come check out my stuff or the WT stuff [Anderew S or Dhira ] is this
we spar , work out , stay in condition , and have cross trained skills as well as flight time working off nonwing chun people , this has been part of our regular training .
the people Dale and T are talking to are the Non sparring , non conditioned , Wing chun is the supreme all you need super fight magic pill

so what ever my skills or Andrew or Dhira or anyone that trains the way we do , shows
it still does nothing for the no need to break a sweat , chi sau forms and certificate lineage guys

this goes back to those that stay with in the confines of the training system [forms chi sau , gor sau ] and those that step out and work on individual application

so for me or any one of the people who have stepped out and moved around with other guys , there is no [ i must sit in my stance and hold my hand in thsi position and my knee must face this angle and i must , i must i must do wing chun just like this , that is stupid and a robot trapped in the training system .

when you get in front of some you it's just you and him , you relate move and flow , sometimes you get hit some times you do the hitting , sometimes you get taken down and tap out its all part of living in the moment

not trying to create a imaginary fantasy fu mental picture

so simply put my abilities good or bad are not your abilities , ;)

Ultimatewingchun

03-31-2005, 10:48 AM

Prediction:

Dale Frank will go and visit Gary Lam, Ernie, and the guys...and he'll come away with a somewhat different view of Wing Chun's effectiveness.

He'll go away thinking that there REALLY ARE guys out there who know how to ADAPT Wing Chun fighting principles, strategies, and techniques to today's "situations" (Boxing, Kickboxing, Thai-Boxing, BJJ, Wrestling, etc.)....

precisely because those guys understand and use various forms of footwork, facing, strikes, kicks, etc. that AREN'T "conventional" or "orthodox" Wing Chun...

and by doing so he (Dale) got to see how many Wing Chun principles and techniques CAN work in a real sparring/fighting situation.

That's what he'll get out of it - and Ernie and the guys will get to see what it's like to get caught by some nice takedowns, arm locks, and chokeholds.

Gangsterfist

03-31-2005, 12:38 PM

Ernie,

Just curious bro, since you train to be alive and fluid, how do you train your wing chun? Do you just drill, and practice application and chi sao? Or do you do the whole system? Dummy, long pole, the 3 open hard forms, single hand chi sao, etc?

I train the whole system as it is traditionally, but I also train basic kung fu work outs and drills to build attributes of strength, endurance, flexibility, conditioning, and cardio. I do low stance training, push ups, and other physical training. The kung fu based training I do is really no joke and it can wear anyone from doing it. Infact, a lot of personal trainers now looking into calestinics (sp?) and other forms of training similiar to the old school kung fu training. They say that high impact, no pain no gain, work outs are bad for the body in the long run. Of course that might change tomorrow with how modern medicine can be so asinine at times.

So, do you train the whole wing chun system traditionally and then supplement other stuff for your overall training, or do you just take what you will from wing chun and incroporate it into your training?

Jim Roselando

03-31-2005, 02:09 PM

Dale,

You guys do have a point. I have done quite a bit of smack talking towards WC. Since everyone says that Gary is the man as far as WC is concerned, maybe I do need to step up to the plate here to check out what most of you consider to be a real WC master.

Good for you Dale! Atleast you own up to your words and are willing to go test out some quality WCK. There is good and bad in all arts. Good fighters and bad fighters in all arts. One of the problems with WC is that there are forty billion WC schools and with this many people doing it one ends up having the majority being hobby people. But, there are good guys out there.

Find and train with a good guy and perhaps you will appreciate WCK more. Its a reasonably simple art but difficult to master.

As Fung sifu once said: Altho WCK is simple and easy to learn, it is mastered only with strong will. Few will achieve great skill.

I think this goes for any art.

Vic,

Jim Roselando:

I think you're backing the wrong horse here. (James Roller)

I am really not backing anyone one but it seems we share an opinion on this one.

For all his outspoken and sometimes-over-the-top rhetoric...got to give Terence credit for being willing to come to Cleveland in May.

Thats great! I am sure it will be a good learning experience for all. Will you guys video tape it?

How about yourself? Are you coming?

Nope, dont train that much anymore. Like I said, 2 times a week max. But! I am more than happy to visit you next time I am in NY. I go twice a year usually. I had a good time playing with Delroi sifu when he was in Boston. Especially since he is 6 ' + and I am a little shrimp 5' 5" 140lb! I think you are closer to my size and it would be interesting to see how that would play out during exchange.

It's a great opportunity for folks of all different lineages (and points of view) to see what's what...and to do it in a friendly atmosphere.

I agree with you. Good for WCK promotion and exchange. Next time the gang should have a WC versus other arts versus WC versus WC. Thats one way to boost WC's name.

Gotta run,

Ernie

03-31-2005, 05:53 PM

Ernie,

Just curious bro, since you train to be alive and fluid, how do you train your wing chun? Do you just drill, and practice application and chi sao? Or do you do the whole system? Dummy, long pole, the 3 open hard forms, single hand chi sao, etc?

So, do you train the whole wing chun system traditionally and then supplement other stuff for your overall training, or do you just take what you will from wing chun and incroporate it into your training?

G-fizzle =)
Wing Chun basics are wing Chun basics these things can not be changed it’s the blue print for the body engine and power generation.
So yes of course we cover forms / dummy / weapons
But the way Gary has organized it and what he wants us to focus on is the difference.
Developing a functional skill set, geared towards actual application not technique based.
Above all being natural.

This would be a very long conversation, email me if you want to go on with it =)

There nothing added, there is just a different attitude, a different mindset if you will

Personally I add my own twist on things when I express myself , I happen to have really good footwork and control of space and timing , I like to play with elevation changes and other weapons . This is me taking my skill set out for a drive and enjoying what I have built up

You can read about Gary’s stuff here
http://garylamwingchun.com/articles.html