Bong Sau

[Nichiren]

Here comes an old favorite in return ;)

My Bong Sau is weak! I use my bong as little as possible because it sucks. I have to change it as soon as possible to e.g. a tan sau or else my bong collapses and my shoulder hurts like hell.

Have someone experienced this before and what should I do. How should I train and how should my elbow be positioned during bong to prevent this. :(

I have started lifting weights and it has helped me a lot but my technique obviously sucks.

[Dave Farmer]

There is a wing chun saying from the kuen kuit that 'Bong Sau never stays' i.e it should move into another position anyway be it a tan, fak, punch or other shape immediately after bridging.

IMHO, if you need a barring or holding shape, move into Lan sau as the elbow position takes the stress from the shoulder.

I don't know in what sense of applying bong sau you mean, but I feel from the shoulder pain, the angle and application of energy you are using is causing the tiredness and aching.

Strengthening the rotator cuff and scapula muscles will make you physically stronger, but in WC you shouldn't really be using muscle force anyway.

Regards and best wishes

Dave F

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'

[El_CLap]

Yeah. When there's too much pressure on your bong sau then turn it. Throw it into tan or turn it and allow the force to go by you. I had a WingTsun instructor who would tell me to try to force a man sao but I never liked to do that.

[reneritchie]

While Bong (Sao) Baat Ting Lao (Wing (Arm) Doesn't Stop or Stay) is certainly something to consider, life (and combat) is full of surprises and being able to "buffer" force in any position can help give you some crucial seconds when those surprises arise. Therefor, having a structurally sound, pain-free Bong Sao, is probably something else to consider.

One way of exploring this is to assume your Bong Sao (you can start with the SNT Bong Sao and work your way through the rest) and get a partner to put pressure (gentle, consistent pressure at first) while you adjust until your alignment is such that the pressure doesn't break your posture, crumple your bridge, or cause you pain. Start with simple, common angles, and then go through others you're likely to come across. You should be able to find a position that can take a fair amount of pain-free pressure within a useful range of position.

Of course, you can do this with other positions.

Rgds,

RR

[Nichiren]

OK, great replies guys. I will try them out. I had to try RR advice at work (I hope my boss didn't see me pressing a bong against the door post, oopppsss that sounded weird...)

I found a couple of angles that works. Especially if lover my elbow slightly below the hand. I get stress on the shoulder when the elbow is above the hand. Another thing I noticed was that if the bong crosses the centreline it hurts.

I will work on both things. :)

[Dave Farmer]

Regards

Dave F

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'

[reneritchie]

WRT the wrist above the elbow, some people have the tendency to go into Lan Sao (rather than Bong, which is qualitatively different) at that point. You should be able to do it with the wrist below the elbow (anywhere from a little to a lot as in the Dai Bong in Chum Kiu). You may want to play around with how you're doing your Bong. If you're using local (esp. shoulder) muscle, you may have more trouble. Relaxation and sinking can help to achieve body alignment.

Some Neijia stylists I've seen recommend imagining a rod going from the contact point through the Yiu/Kwa (Waist/Hips) and on through the horse. That might help as well (though probably best not to dwell on it ;)

Rgds,

RR

[dzu]

In addition to what Rene has mentioned, I also go through the transition between tan and bong slowly with varying pressure from my partner. He applies a certain pressure to my tan sau and I respond with bong using just enough change to neutralize the force. This change is predicated upon the force vector I feel coming into my center. A force vector has a magnitude (small, medium , heavy pressure, etc.) and a direction into me (high, low, inside, outside, uo, down, combination of these, etc.)

IMO, bong exists throughout the change from tan to bong, and not just at the final position. Too much 'bong', when it isn't required, can lead to creating a bad position or structure for yourself, which is what you are trying to avoid!

By focusing on just the tan/bong transition, you learn to FEEL rather than mechanically performing luk sau/poon sau/rolling during chi sau. It trains you to focus on making small adjustments instead of a gross 'bong' motion that has no relevance or connection to the actual force vector attacking your center.

Dzu

[S.Teebas]

Connect your wrist, elbow, and shoulder points to the central mass of your body (for starters). This will give you the support you need (instead of your shoulder taking all the load). Then forget about your arm and use your mind to dictate defelection while attacking. Use your body reaction to tell you how much force you can take (or let the opponent commit to you) before you NEED to move it somewhere elsel; i.e. before your structure breaks.

Remember to accept the force before doing something with it. It sounds like you are pushing it away too much before you have it.


S.Teebas

[reneritchie]

Hey Dzu,

Once you can find that "sweet spot" rather instinctively, the transition is a great idea. Like most things, I try to start with one, then keep adding one (eg., find the spot, transition standing to the spot, then turning, then stepping, then you can start free-styling provided when you make a mistake you stop and train the fix).

When all that starts to click, I think some of Bong Sao's fun possibilities show themselves 8)

Rgds,

RR

[Dave Farmer]

Best thread we've had in a while lmao

Regards

Dave F

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'