a foolish fighter is one who cannot appreciate the idea of internal martial arts

[spiraler]

uh oh. i better watch my mouth :eek:

[PangQuan]

I agree. Let others think what they want. Internal arts have been around for thousands of years, the best masters out of history all practiced them.

To deny the existance of truth is to enter into the kingdom of ignroance. (you can quote me on that one :p )

This is not to say that one should only practice internal arts, this would be foolish, a balanced combination of both is the true ideal. You may reach great hights in practicing only one, but you shall soar to unfathomable levels when you find the balance between the two.

[red5angel]

"internal" is a lot like Qi. The chinese didn't realy understand how the body worked or how people used what they had, so they came up with these ways to explain what they observed.
There is no internal or external, it's all the same thing.

[PangQuan]

One aspect of internal martial arts is what can be aquired through deep meditation, which I do not know, and I doubt very little if anyone on this forum does. I do meditate, and can contemplate with my deep mind but this is still a very introductory level of meditation. True meditation must be led by a master of many many years, who will interperate your experience and guide you to the core of true meditation. There are consepts which are very difficult for people to grasp due to the fact that they have had no real exposure to these ideals.

Granted much of what is considered "internal" is merely just a deeper fabrication of what could be called external working. The only difference being the cooperation of mind, breathing, specific oragns, and deep muscle tissue. Where as any idiot can throw a punch, only one experience in "internal" arts can throw a punch using half the energy and developing 4 times the power. This is one aspect of internal training which can be seen by anyone who give the action actual thought. Although there is much that cannot be merely seen or understood, but must be truly experienced.

[PangQuan]

Also I believe that the Chinese did in fact have a great understanding of how the body worked. Dont forget about many taoist masters who would live spans that doubled or trippled those of weasterners. It was their understanding of how the body worked, the correct portions of what was needed to properly maintain the internal organs to reach maximum longevity based on the human design, the correct postures to maintain, callistenics, exersise, and a multitude of other things that when all done in corrolation with each other gave these men the abilities to prolong their lives by years. Years that modern weastern science is still struggling to reach.

[red5angel]

One aspect of internal martial arts is what can be aquired through deep meditation


wouldn't that just be called meditation? how is that "internal martial arts"?



Dont forget about many taoist masters who would live spans that doubled or trippled those of weasterners


Was it moses or Noah who loved 900 years?

[Fu-Pow]

"internal" is a lot like Qi. The chinese didn't realy understand how the body worked or how people used what they had, so they came up with these ways to explain what they observed.
There is no internal or external, it's all the same thing.

Let me 'splain something to you.

The concept of Chi is just as relevant today as it was then. How the mind (ie the intent) effects the body is not explainable now as it was then. In fact it will probably NEVER be explained because we are dealing with two different realms of knowledge (ie objective and subjective) and Chi is the "cheese" that binds them together (albeit not perfectly).

Don't pretend that Science has solved the fundamental problem of mind/body dualism. It hasn't. It has either just denied that their is "mind" altogether (ie it is just a brain) or it has left the mind dangling out in space disconnected from the body (ie most religions.)

Where is your mind? How does the mind effect the body and vice versa? Who am I? What am I? What is my intent? How can my intent effect my body?

Don't pretend that Science has this all worked out, or that it ever will.

What we do know is that on a personal level, your intent can only effect your own body. All these "chi blasters" are full of it. But internal martial arts is a study of intent. Of clarifying intent. Of being unifying intent. Of learning how to purify your Yi and gather your Chi. Of how to sense someone elses intent (listening) while concealing your own.

For all intents (no pun intended) internal martial arts is about "internal alchemy" as much as it is about things on the outside like the Liu He or "structure" or style.

Bottom line. Don't hide behind Science like it is the be all and end all. Or your guilty of "scientism", which is as dogmatic as any other religion.

[PangQuan]

Its not a matter of which is better, its a matter of balance. Neither is better, and neither is complete without the other.

[red5angel]

Let me 'splain something to you.

blah blah blah. Did you just cut and paste this from the last thread on Qi? Cause you couldn't prove it there and you ain't gonna here.

[PangQuan]

wouldn't that just be called meditation? how is that "internal martial arts"?





Was it moses or Noah who loved 900 years?

If you believe moses lived 900 years then good. He of course, being so close to God. Would have had the secret of proper inernal and external workings. This is why he lived so long. the combination of both. God would deffinately give him the knowlege needed for the internal workings to be complete enough to reach this stage. I bet moses would KO anyone.

[PangQuan]

This thread is not about "Qi" the one who started it, did not use that term, nor did I. I believe you brought it into the equation.

[red5angel]

Pangquan, I was underlining the point that anyone can claim anything. I don't believe moses lived to be 900 years, I'm not even completely convinced he existed at all. I think they're were quite a few people mentioned in the bible as living for many more years then anyone does today, it's easy to make those claims when there is no way to prove it.
It's just like the qi stuff fu pow is trying to turn this thread into an argument on. You can claim whateve ryou want but no one can epxlain it.

Do you know how many tims I've seen people try to explain what "internal" is supposed to be, only to be shot down time and time again by better reasoning? Hell, at one point I even bought into the internal external thing.
If you want to claim meditation and some other mental tricks are "internal" ok, but the way the body works, is the same no matter how you train. If you want to claim it has something to do with alignment of the bone and power generated starting from the ground, try talking to a boxer about his art being "external" then and I bet your eyes get opened a little.

[Fu-Pow]

blah blah blah. Did you just cut and paste this from the last thread on Qi? Cause you couldn't prove it there and you ain't gonna here.

That's what you don't get.

Qi can't be PROVEN in the scientific sense because Qi is a CONCEPT about the connection between Mind and Body.

We can see the "intent" manifest in the body. People can "will" all kinds of strange phenomena in their own bodies just with their thoughts. And we have no explanation of how this can be.

If Chi is a concept that unites both mind AND body then it cannot be "proven."

In EXACTLY the same way that MIND CANNOT BE PROVEN.

You can't prove that mind exists.

And further more Science will never "prove" that mind exists because mind doesn't exist "anywhere" (as in terms of simple location or extension.)

[red5angel]

You can't prove that mind exists.



you're fired. :rolleyes:

[Fu-Pow]

you're fired. :rolleyes:


"Prove" that your mind exists.

I triple dog dare you.

This deserves its own thread.

[PangQuan]

When you adequately use your mind to form an on the spot strategic maneuver, this is internal martial arts. Chess is done with internal martial arts. Look at the word internal. This means inside. The mind is inside you. It cannot be outside. For this reason deep meditation is a form of internal martial arts. Due to the fact it hightens your thought process to a faster pace, through deep contemplation. Its like reading. the more you read the faster you will read. I think this is a pretty good explanation of how meditation is internal. You seem to think everything must be Physical. Mental cannot be physical, therfore it is not external, there fore it is internal, when used in a fighting matter, it is internal martial arts. Very clear explanation.

[spiraler]

a foolish guy is who believe......shaddap!

[red5angel]

your explanation isn't jiving with me pangquan. You're not describing internal martial arts. Sure it's "internal" like you have an internal dialogue, but it's not "martial arts". Visualization is not martial arts.
Internal Martial arts as it's described around here are things liek Taichi, Bagua, Hsing Yi, all the arts that supposedly use less muscle and more of something else.

[spiraler]

a few educated philosophers i see.

[spiraler]

try to curl a fifty pound barbell. its pretty hard isnt it? now place the fifty pound barbell on the floor and try to pick it up and curl it, much easier huh? speed, proper use of mechanics and velocity will overcome strength anyday. yet you must have external strength to acquire chi. uh oh..... i said it.

[PangQuan]

Bagua, Taiji are forms of moving meditation, meditation is an aspect of internal martial arts. Not a specified form. But it does deffinately come into play.

[red5angel]

ok pangquan, your terminology isn't making any sense to me so can you provide me with a definition, in your opinion, of internal martial arts, and give me some examples please.

[PangQuan]

Spiraler, you are an excellent instigator of intillectual debate.

[red5angel]

pangquan, I gotta go to class and odn't sign in at home so I'll look for your definitions tomorrow and continue this discussion then.

[spiraler]

inquire till u find the truth, then inquire somemore

[PangQuan]

I am just pointing out how meditation is a part of internal martial arts, as in thinking several steps ahead of your opponent and calculating his possible movements, then mentally adjusting yourself to adapt. By chinese tradition the mind when used in fighting is an aspect of internal arts. because it is not brute force, which any village fool is capable of exerting. With meditation you can enhance you ability to adapt through proper alignment of mental projection of your opponents capable movement. The way it is enhanced through meditation is the same way your external muscles are enhanced through lifting weight. It is the exersise of the specific area. Meditation exersises your mind through many different ways, one being the strategic ability present while in combat.

It is difficult to put this into words, and I apologize for the confusion.

[spiraler]

knowledge is a shared substance.we can all get high off of.

[Merryprankster]

It was Methuselah who lived 900+ years.

[PangQuan]

ahhhhhhhh.

[PaiLumDreamer]

Do you know how many tims I've seen people try to explain what "internal" is supposed to be, only to be shot down time and time again by better reasoning?


:rolleyes: Im not really going to take sides...but have you ever tried explaining a color to a blind person? Its kinda hard.

PangQuan said it himself: It has to be experienced.

I dont really believe in things blindly, and ill question it until I get some type of experience...but dont just shoot it down.

Then again...you did say you once believed in it. If you found out to yourself that it isnt "real", or whatever...more power to you! No two persons experiences will be the same, which is even more true when it comes to something that cant be seen. Just because something doesnt float your boat means that the rest of the believers will be wrong.


Its like a political debate :D Bush? Kerry? Internal or no internal? You can never really convince the other person if they are a strong believer either way.

Anyway...its an interesting topic none the less...I just hope nobody is expecting to sway someones view.

[PangQuan]

Good post. And if anyones views were swayed by these silly debates I would question their original devotion to their views.

[Vash]

**** dirty hippies.

[spiraler]

your ignorance is inspiring

[Disciple]

What is the point about this thread exactly?

[Happeh]

If you want to claim meditation and some other mental tricks are "internal" ok, but the way the body works, is the same no matter how you train. If you want to claim it has something to do with alignment of the bone and power generated starting from the ground, try talking to a boxer about his art being "external" then and I bet your eyes get opened a little.


You absolute certainty of something you don't have a clue about is disheartening.

There is internal and external martial arts.

You have no clue.

The way the power is generated is absolutely different. It is not the same thing called different words.

By disbelieving in internal martial arts, the only thing you accomplish is denying yourself the opportunity to learn.




What we do know is that on a personal level, your intent can only effect your own body. All these "chi blasters" are full of it. But internal martial arts is a study of intent. Of clarifying intent. Of being unifying intent. Of learning how to purify your Yi and gather your Chi. Of how to sense someone elses intent (listening) while concealing your own.



Absolutely not true.

Your intent can cause effects outside of your body. "Chi Blasters" are NOT full of it.

What is the Force? How do Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader make people do stuff with the Jedi Mind Trick?

Chi. Intent.

[Happeh]

Does

- God exist?
- Ghost exist?
- UFO exist?
- Qi exist?

It may exist but it has nothing to do with you if you have never met or experience them?

Can anybody experience Qi? I don't think so. It may take a special person to have Qi feeling and I'm not one of them.

The whole wold may believe in God or Qi but I can't say that I believe in God or Qi because I cannot lie to myself.



What is God? Christian God? Muslim God? Pagan God? African Gods? Norweigein Gods? Greek Gods? Is the world a computer simulation and the admin is God? Is the world a computer video game and God is the kid in his bedroom who is playing the game "Earth"?

Yes Ghosts do exist.

What is a UFO? Do you mean an "alien" vessel flying around? Do you mean a military aircraft with no markings? A DEA helicopter with no markings? A CIA kidnap squad using a VTOL jet with no markings? A missile launched from a military base they didn't tell you about?

When I was a kid everyone ran out in the street one night. Everyone was acting scared and looking up in the sky. There was this really bright light that stayed there and stayed there. Lots of people were afraid. Some of them talked about aliens.

Later on after everyone called the cops and the fire department and stuff, the military came out and admitted they had launched a missile or a rocket. Until then, some people on the street were convinced it was an alien UFO.

Yes Chi exists.

[Becca]

"internal" is a lot like Qi. The chinese didn't realy understand how the body worked or how people used what they had, so they came up with these ways to explain what they observed.
There is no internal or external, it's all the same thing.
But chi does exist, Red. We Westerners use a different term for it, but that don't mean it don't exist... A rose by any other name and all that... :rolleyes:

[Vash]

The hell happened? Did some tree-hugging "da shrfu" let his latest batch of pod-hippies onto the net to spread the Gospel of Stupid?

[Becca]

The hell happened? Did some tree-hugging "da shrfu" let his latest batch of pod-hippies onto the net to spread the Gospel of Stupid?
I dare you to sat that to the face of eith of my sifu... It aught to be as interesting as that time one of the newbs disided to challenge our senior wosu in armbanging drills. :eek: :D

Or better yet, go up to the Ft. Collins Pai Lum kwoon and call out the senior instructor there. Sifu Dill is one of those "tree huggers" who uses chi to develop and maintain an Iron Fist. :cool:

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

External? the mindset that believes there is no internal..

Internal? the mindset that believes there is more than that which can be measured or quantified.. that in that "more" is the potential for enhancing one's martial arts and even one's quality of life..

A notable distinction is that the vast majority of those that claim to practice "internal" also acknowledge "external".. while the external only group is secure in their in their rejection of "possibility".. it is comical to watch the "External Only" (EO) people bury their heads in the sand..

Let's see, R5A squawks repeatedly that no one can define Qi.. perhaps that is true.. So, by definition, "Love" would suffer the same fate.. "if i can't measure it, it ain't so"..

My personal belief regarding Qi: First, i pile all the chemicals, compounds and elements necessary to build a human on a table.. then, ask the best and brightest to build a living person (no takers so far).. then, i ponder what is missing.. i can add "bioelectricity", still the pile only smoulders.. i can recite incantations, the pile is unresponsive.. hmmm, what could be missing.. it must be "Life".. or, as the Chinese said thousands of years ago, "Qi"... Now, whatever fanciful claims have been made regarding Qi and its "magic", are just that, "claims".. the claims do not invalidate the concept of "Life" (Qi) as an intangible quality/essence of human existence.. I agree that much trickery and many myths have been used to mystify and market a "Qi" (Life) for profit game.. still, that doesn't invalidate the concept of "Life" (Qi).. oh, yeah, "life for profit" is also known as "religion"..

My own "Qi" experience: That with diligent effort, discipline, focus and intention, i can enhance the quality of my Life (Qi).. that enhanced quality enables me to sense my physical being much better than the unenhanced version.. from that, i sense structural alignment, optimum muscular development, better stimulus to response ratios... it goes on and on.. Life (Qi) animates our physical existence to the degree that we cultivate and nurture it (internal disciplines seem to have a useful edge, here)..

The best perspective i can offer is... where would we be today if our ancestors stopped looking and searching for answers that weren't obvious, if they didn't have the curiosity and vision to reach beyond the known into the unknown.. Hint: we would still be squatting around campfires and grunting..

Now, the EOs will hop around their campfires howling at the concept of Qi.. fearful that it might demand more than they are capable of.. it asks them to unite mind, body and spirit into a single functioning being..

Be well..

[SiuHung]

Your intent can cause effects outside of your body. "Chi Blasters" are NOT full of it.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :rolleyes:

Really? Wow man, that's great news. So when do we all get to see a "chi blast" applied effectively in competition against a non-blaster?

Oh wait....I already know the answer: never. It will never happen. Never ever ever.

[Ray Pina]

"internal" is a lot like Qi. The chinese didn't realy understand how the body worked or how people used what they had, so they came up with these ways to explain what they observed.
There is no internal or external, it's all the same thing.

I'd be careful of making statements like that. On what do you base your judgement ? Who has showed you some internal? That's very important.

I have done about 12 years of Isshin-Ryu karate, 4 to 5 of Hung Gar and Wing Chun and about 3 of S. Mantis ..... there is a difference between how those styles generate power and say Hsing-I .... a big difference. And because of that the way Hsing-I seeks to solve problems is also different. I'll only speak of Hsing-I because of all the internal styles I feel most comfortable discussing that one, but I'm getting acquainted with Taiji right now.

I still make fun of it tongue in cheak -- because there is a A LOT of bad taiji out there -- but I respect it now. They have a lot of good stuff in there. My teacher is actually in the process of putting together a book to match his video of 100% fighting aspects of Taiji.

[Becca]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :rolleyes:

Really? Wow man, that's great news. So when do we all get to see a "chi blast" applied effectively in competition against a non-blaster?

Oh wait....I already know the answer: never. It will never happen. Never ever ever.
That depends on how you expect an internal fighter to look when he/she fights. Only an eyot would expect it to look a spasific way when they have no reference to base it on. You might want to actually watch an internalist spar; they look very much loke anyone else as far as types of kicks, punches, ect... The thing you need to watch is the blocks and evasions. Once you start to notice how quick and fluid they are, you will also start noticing that thier more agressive moves are just as quick and fluid.

I'm not saying chi blasts are real. I have never seen one. But I have seen some astounding things. I have been walked through execrsizes that incresed my physical abilities in hours. This leeds me to the conclusion that maybe I don't know everything there is to know about the mystical side of life and that it may be a good idea to keep my eyes and my mind open... :rolleyes:

[SiuHung]

That depends on how you expect an internal fighter to look when he/she fights. Only an eyot would expect it to look a spasific way when they have no reference to base it on. You might want to actually watch an internalist spar; they look very much loke anyone else as far as types of kicks, punches, ect... The thing you need to watch is the blocks and evasions. Once you start to notice how quick and fluid they are, you will also start noticing that thier more agressive moves are just as quick and fluid.

But, are these stylistic qualities, or internal power in action? I think it's very difficult to say that "external" is not also quick and fluid. Also, one has to look far and hard to find an internalist that does spar. I'm not sayin there aren't any, but in my experience, they are vastly under-represented.

[red5angel]

MP - Moses lived for quite a long time did he not? My Christian Mythology isn't what it should be.


Pangquan, you have still failed to define what "Internal Martial arts" is. If meditation is a part of it, then what is the whole?



Im not really going to take sides...but have you ever tried explaining a color to a blind person? Its kinda hard.


This excuse has been used before and as poetic as it is, it holds no water. A scientist can explain in exact and accurate terms what "Red" is. This doesn't allow a blind person to percieve the color red, but it can be explained and that's the point.

happeh = really really bad troll. Take your amateur **** somewhere else dewd.



But chi does exist, Red. We Westerners use a different term for it, but that don't mean it don't exist... A rose by any other name and all that.

Becca, I don't believe it does. It's an outmoded label for a series of things that can't be lumped into one category to be properly understood. By doing so you get stuck in a mystical mind, and run around in circles trying to explain something you don't really understand. The "you" here is proverbial and not you directly becca.

taichibob - I contemplated replying to your post, but it's the same inane hippy, mystical based ****e you've been trying to spread since day one. You can't offer answers so don't bother trying to. Be well


Ray P - Fair enough, I still don't believe in Qi and I believe strongly that the ancient chinese may have understood how to train the body to great levels - so did the greeks for that matter - but they didn't understand the why's and so came up with the best explanations they could at the time.


[/QUOTE]I'm not saying chi blasts are real. I have never seen one. But I have seen some astounding things. I have been walked through execrsizes that incresed my physical abilities in hours. This leeds me to the conclusion that maybe I don't know everything there is to know about the mystical side of life and that it may be a good idea to keep my eyes and my mind open..[QUOTE]


Becca, I've seen some pretty astounding things as well. As a matter of fact, my freind can find the card I pulled out before he shuffled it back into the deck almost everytime, it's pretty amazing.
As for developing physical qualities over a few hours - 1 the mind plays a lot of tricks and 2 - what about that can't be explained by better knowledge of the bio mechanics of your body?
For instance, I struggled with one kick for months in my class. Suddenly, this past tuesday, my instructor shows me a trick, turn my shoulders at a certain point where I was not and voila! I'm doing the kick like a pro. That didn't take hours it took seconds.

[Merryprankster]

Red,

Moses lived to be something like 120.

[Becca]

But, are these stylistic qualities, or internal power in action? I think it's very difficult to say that "external" is not also quick and fluid. Also, one has to look far and hard to find an internalist that does spar. I'm not sayin there aren't any, but in my experience, they are vastly under-represented.
This is why you need to watch them spar. You can teach the system to several people, but the ones who have cultivated thier internal power will be remakably better. It's like watching a newb execute a form them watching thier Sifu do it. The difference is, in internal styles, an exceptional student is sometimes more skilled than the teacher because it comes more naturally. I have seen this myself. While one does not need to have good Chi controll to practice Pai Lum well, or even to master it, when you see a sifu who has mastered the internal side, the difference between him and his peers is obvious.

[red5angel]

ok, I though there was someone who had lived for like 700 years not including Methuselah but I'm not expert on it, Regardless, it stilll underlines my point :D

[SiuHung]

This is why you need to watch them spar. You can teach the system to several people, but the ones who have cultivated thier internal power will be remakably better. It's like watching a newb execute a form them watching thier Sifu do it. The difference is, in internal styles, an exceptional student is sometimes more skilled than the teacher because it comes more naturally. I have seen this myself. While one does not need to have good Chi controll to practice Pai Lum well, or even to master it, when you see a sifu who has mastered the internal side, the difference between him and his peers is obvious.

But here we are saying that the minority of the minority have mastered the internal. In other words, there are very few people who have this amazing power.

I have seen many people spar from various styles, and varying skill levels. As a rule, the ones with more sparring experience do well, and also the ones with some natural ability. Never, have I looked at sparring and been able to distinguish the ones using internal vs. external power. In fact, when I have seen exclusively internally trained people sparring...they are light years behind the lowly "external" types.

I'm not going to try to convince you or anyone, anymore, whether or not chi does/doesn't exist. My approach is based on 23 years of MA experience. I was "Told" a lot of stuff by my teachers. But I base my understanding of things from what I've seen, felt, and done, rather than what somone else has told me or believes to be true.

BTW, are you at all asscociated with the Pai Lum folks in Milwaukee, WI?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


taichibob - I contemplated replying to your post, but it's the same inane hippy, mystical based ****e you've been trying to spread since day one. You can't offer answers so don't bother trying to. Be well You may have a point.. or, it may be that you simply can't hear answers.. in either case, the closed mind is a path with no where to go but down, it will stagnate and die.. and, just for the record, R5A, nothing mystical about it, that is a label YOU use, so stop trying to pin it on everyone else.. if you can't deal with Life/Qi as integral to Martial Arts STFU and move on.. let those of us mature enough to have genuine conversations do so without listening to your weeping and whining.. and for Pete's sake, lose the Helen thing it's plain embarassing... and a little spooky..

Be well..

[red5angel]

Greetings..

You may have a point.. or, it may be that you simply can't hear answers.. in either case, the closed mind is a path with no where to go but down, it will stagnate and die.. and, just for the record, R5A, nothing mystical about it, that is a label YOU use, so stop trying to pin it on everyone else.. if you can't deal with Life/Qi as integral to Martial Arts STFU and move on.. let those of us mature enough to have genuine conversations do so without listening to your weeping and whining.. and for Pete's sake, lose the Helen thing it's plain embarassing... and a little spooky..

Be well..

the sound of one hand clapping.....

You're not providing answers, you continue to be cryptic and elusive because you can't directly answer any of the questions. You can't answer any of the questions because what you're proposing exists, doesn't. You're hardly one of those who is "mature" bob, to undescore my point"



and for Pete's sake, lose the Helen thing it's plain embarassing... and a little spooky..


I'm sorry you find a good looking woman spooky and disturbing.

[Ray Pina]

The things that's frustrating is that people are commenting about Internal Martial Arts without any first hand experience. So, someone floating around the web hears these things and then to impress more modern fighters spews it back out as fact .... but what is it based on? This is the definition of ignorance.

Be what it may, I've been in MA a long time, and I am most interested in improving as a fighter -- in and out of the ring -- and yet I have turned to Internal Martial Arts because it has provided certain answers I've been looking for.

Look, there are a lot of phoney balognies in all areas of martial arts .... I'm already starting to see it in MMA and BJJ. It's just not as prevalent but give it time.

If you are in NYC and want to see internal fighting, please, drop me a line and I'd love to introduce you to my teacher. I'm also in the process of compiling video, so I'm also interested to play. (I've been doing some fighting recently with MMA gloves and I have to say, I prefer this way.... just feels so much better than boxing gloves.)

Anyway, at the end of the day, I don't really care what others think. In fact, it's quite funny to see people so adamant about their ignorance. I'm not saying Internal is better, I'm just saying its concepts are real, and can be translated into a very affective fighting arsenal. Also, energy running through the body is real, no doubt about it. When you learn how to feel it it changes everything. Managing and regulating it becomes very important and you become very aware of days you're a little too tired and maby negelecting some practice and maybe had a little too much sex at the same time (phase I'm in right now).

For the most part, I'm sure there was some A-hole in town who told the Wright brothers they were foolish and it was impossible to fly. And I'm sure, on those early mornings, before the rest of the world new, they would get a favorable wind and get some hang time and be flying and must of though, "Yea, it's impossible" and had a huge grin from ear to ear.... I wonder what they thought inside when they ran into this negative, flightless mother fu(ker.

Probbaly something like, "Everybody's got something to say yet nobody wants to come fight without gloves or gear."

[MasterKiller]

ok, I though there was someone who had lived for like 700 years not including Methuselah but I'm not expert on it, Regardless, it stilll underlines my point :D
Moses died at 120, still vital.

Adam died at 930

Seth died at 912

Enos died at 905

Cainan died at 910

Mahalaleel died at 895

Jared died at 962

Noah died at 950

and so one and so forth....

[Ray Pina]

I'm thinking this was before artificial sweetner.

[red5angel]

Moses died at 120, still vital.

Adam died at 930

Seth died at 912

Enos died at 905

Cainan died at 910

Mahalaleel died at 895

Jared died at 962

Noah died at 950

and so one and so forth....



so...the taoist don't have the market on long livedness? ;)

[MasterKiller]

so...the taoist don't have the market on long livedness? ;)

Well, after Noah, people start dying younger and younger, until we get to the more accepted life span of modern people. It's part of the bargain God strikes for allowing people to exist into the "Second Age" I believe.

[SanSoo Student]

Can I re-haggle with God?
I can make a good deal with him, maybe we can trade...I know this nice red planet that he can start new life at.... ;)

[Ray Pina]

So, I can tell ya how to be multiple-orgasmic and yet save your seed .... I can put you in a posture that will have your $hit running like Micheal Jackson from a female brothel ... straighten your back and clear your mind but you don't want to hear it.

But some virtual caveman writes that some cat lived to be nearly 900 years old and its literally taken as gospil. :)

I love people. These are the same people that are complaining about the effects of the causes they put into action, about hurting this and being sick about that .... and yet they live their lives just like the TV told them too and wonder why.

[red5angel]

to make sure the irony wasn't wasted - it appears atleast Ray may have missed it:

Pangquan, I think, pointed out that there are taoist that had lived well beyond the normal exceptable life span (by the way pang, if you have some records to poitn out I'd like to see it). I pointed out that in the bible, several people lived well beyond a few hundred measley years. My point was that the bible, is not more a factual record then anything else that is ancient history. That anyone can't point to ancient text as "proof" of something like this.
SO there is some context here, I'm not christian and consider the bible to be along the same lines as the cave paintings of the aboriginies, or the heiroglyphs of the ancient egyptians. Some fact probably, mostly fantasy however.

[SiuHung]

If you are in NYC and want to see internal fighting, please, drop me a line and I'd love to introduce you to my teacher. I'm also in the process of compiling video, so I'm also interested to play. (I've been doing some fighting recently with MMA gloves and I have to say, I prefer this way.... just feels so much better than boxing gloves.)

Anyway, at the end of the day, I don't really care what others think. In fact, it's quite funny to see people so adamant about their ignorance. I'm not saying Internal is better, I'm just saying its concepts are real, and can be translated into a very affective fighting arsenal. Also, energy running through the body is real, no doubt about it. When you learn how to feel it it changes everything. Managing and regulating it becomes very important and you become very aware of days you're a little too tired and maby negelecting some practice and maybe had a little too much sex at the same time (phase I'm in right now).

For the most part, I'm sure there was some A-hole in town who told the Wright brothers they were foolish and it was impossible to fly. And I'm sure, on those early mornings, before the rest of the world new, they would get a favorable wind and get some hang time and be flying and must of though, "Yea, it's impossible" and had a huge grin from ear to ear.... I wonder what they thought inside when they ran into this negative, flightless mother fu(ker.

Probbaly something like, "Everybody's got something to say yet nobody wants to come fight without gloves or gear."

Ray, since you've gravitated towards internal and found some good things for yourself there, do you now think that internal fighting is better than external fighting? How much different is it, and what are those differences? Also, do you think it gives an advantage over the so-called external styles? I'm not asking to be a jerk, I am genuinely curious. You have an interesting background in MA, so your perspective would be of value.

[red5angel]

Ray, since you've gravitated towards internal and found some good things for yourself there, do you now think that internal fighting is better than external fighting?


Better yet, how would you define the differences?

[Ray Pina]

In general terms I don't think Internal is better. In fact, I'd say 95% of the time it is worse if you're looking for fighting. I say this on the experience I have were most Internal players don't want to learn how to fight and at the same time don't understand what the hell it is they're doing when they do their form or what they're calling Chi Gung.

With that said, IF you can find a good teacher that knows his stuff -- and this will be evident because he'll want to show you his treasure (doesn't mean you can have it though) -- you can be trained to fight.

I've been training internal now for 3 years as of last month. The first year I was impressed with the external technique, concepts of shielding and wedging. I thought I was getting something and went out to fight with mixed results. I'd do well playing but in the ring, against another trained fighter, I was slightly out perfromed (due mostly to strategy and conditioning) but it made a big difference -- I had to concede with 30 seconds in the round. Of course, later I learned folks were asking for time outs and what not but that just doesn't seem right to me. I lost and I learned.

That got me thinking why? I realised it wasn't my condition: I can spar 3 to 4 consecutive guys while training. It was my nerves and inexperience in the ring. I also didn;t have control of my technique. So I spent time working technique and sparring different people. Now I'm more comfortable and have more control.

A few months ago I had an internal break through (been slacking since my surf trip but will begin again tonight) and it has changed everything. My fighting has improved 10 fold. But I needed the technique, I still need experience and things have to come together.

This I'm guessing is for any fighter: you need your elements to come together for you.

What I like about Internal, or at least my master's system, is that it is very humble. It's more about managing your budget than convincing yourself you are bill gates.

I don't have the time to condition myself to the same level as an atheltic 19 to 23 year old. I can lift all day, I'm still 5'11. Can't change that. I'm getting older.

So how do you beat the younger, biger, better conditioned guy? This is called self defense. This is martial art.

Internal or external, you have to find a way and be honest withyourself. Forget weight divisions. Solve any problem that comes.

So I rambled a lot. Sorry. Don't know what to say. I like my master's program. Maybe another internal fighting school wouldn't suit me. We do a lot of drills with boxing gloves that makes you understand and trust a technique. When you trust a technique, well, then you feel safe. When you feel safe, fighting isn't that big of a deal.

I don't want to say, No Fear. Oh really? Go fight the big guy, no fear? But a little something inside of you that wants to push yourself, see if you're up for the challenge. That's kind of were I'm at right now. I'm feeling kind of good about things but know I'm still making mistakes.

[Merryprankster]

I don't have the time to condition myself to the same level as an atheltic 19 to 23 year old. I can lift all day, I'm still 5'11. Can't change that. I'm getting older.

This is utter garbage. If you want to win in competition, you have to be in shape. Period. A 35 year old can condition just as well as a 19 year old. You just have to do it, want it and pay attention to your body.

It is HARDER, but not impossible.

There comes a point, of course, where you just don't have the same physical tools - but you encounter that even during the course of "regular" competition - many, many, many people are stronger, faster and have more gas in the tank than I do.

If you truly believe the above, you are setting yourself up for loss.

You don't have to believe me, but if you really think the above is true, then you are engaged in ego-protection because it provides an excuse for potential loss. It lets you say "ah, well, if only I'd had better cardio....I just gassed.... if I'd REALLY been in shape like I should be, I would have beat him."

I've had to conquer more internal demons, self doubt and introspection than most competitors, and I've DONE IT - it only took me 12 years. I can spot excuses a mile away.

Don't set yourself up for failure.

[Vash]

I dare you to sat that to the face of eith of my sifu... It aught to be as interesting as that time one of the newbs disided to challenge our senior wosu in armbanging drills. :eek: :D

Or better yet, go up to the Ft. Collins Pai Lum kwoon and call out the senior instructor there. Sifu Dill is one of those "tree huggers" who uses chi to develop and maintain an Iron Fist. :cool:

I was talking to kool-aid boi.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It's kinda simple... win or lose, it wasn't perfect.. you analyze, modify and try again.. this is training.. Now, some people will assert that only one kind of training works and they like to call it "external".. i assert that external AND internal training together can only make me better than either one alone. There are some external training techniques that i don't like, just as there are some internal training techniques i don't like.. Good internal training has no provision for "Chi-Blast", not any of the training i have had, anyhow.. it is much more like fine-tuning external issues, changing the fuel-to-air ratio, and losing the ego..

I'm not a "Chi-Blast" kinda guy. Good alignmemt, good structure, good power (yes, strength), good endurance, good focus, experience and lots of it, micro-balance control, conditioning, and a relaxed readiness, these are the qualities i find favor with for my training and for actual combat.. and i gain as much from good internal training as i do from good external training.. To insist that this is somehow a flawed perspective means only that the person insisting is without experience or qualification in the specifics of the other person's training or capabilities..


I'm sorry you find a good looking woman spooky and disturbing.
That would be a misinterpretation.. what i find disturbing is that someone would use her picture as their avatar and babble on about their fondness for her.. that sort of obsessive public display is juvenile and a sad revelation of a sad personal situation..

Be well..

[PangQuan]

Red,

I used meditation as a means of displaying an aspect of internal martial arts. I did not try to establish a definition or example of internal arts as a whole. I know you do not agree with standard concepts of internal arts, so I just used one aspect to describe an area that is most deffinately internal in regards martial arts. I decided to leave the ideas and belief of Qi out of this one, in my replys anyhow.

As for the long lived taoists, I dont claim any several hundreds of years. Im speaking of individuals who prolonged thier lives to the extend of 100 years +. Which modern science/medicine is now capable of helping people reach this. As for recorded evidence of this, well, taoists have been around a long time, and not much has been recorded. A Taoist monk, on average, will not share any of their past lives prior to becoming a monk, no birth dates, no in depth experiences, this is all due to their path of fate and the individualism atached to their specific lives. There are however present day taoists who have studied under masters, who lived beyond the hundred year mark. This is a pattern that has been unchanged for thousands of years. There are records of individuals living to extreme ages. Not just taoists but records by individuals who made it their study to find prolonged life individuals. Some of these records include taoist masters. You just have to read everything that comes your way, and you will come across these records, if it was of any relevence to me to go through the trouble of proving this, I could, but the thing is I dont really care to. If you need evidence, you can find it. Many of these accounts are recorded in modern western medical alminacs and accounts.

[PangQuan]

My personal belief regarding Qi: First, i pile all the chemicals, compounds and elements necessary to build a human on a table.. then, ask the best and brightest to build a living person (no takers so far).. then, i ponder what is missing.. i can add "bioelectricity", still the pile only smoulders.. i can recite incantations, the pile is unresponsive.. hmmm, what could be missing.. it must be "Life".. or, as the Chinese said thousands of years ago, "Qi"... Now, whatever fanciful claims have been made regarding Qi and its "magic", are just that, "claims".. the claims do not invalidate the concept of "Life" (Qi) as an intangible quality/essence of human existence.. I agree that much trickery and many myths have been used to mystify and market a "Qi" (Life) for profit game.. still, that doesn't invalidate the concept of "Life" (Qi).. oh, yeah, "life for profit" is also known as "religion"..



beautiful.

[red5angel]

That would be a misinterpretation.. what i find disturbing is that someone would use her picture as their avatar and babble on about their fondness for her.. that sort of obsessive public display is juvenile and a sad revelation of a sad personal situation..



I'd say the same thing about a guy who can't answer a question directly and quotes himself in his sig.

[red5angel]

Pangquan, there are many records of people living 100+ years all over the world, it's not exclusive to taoist. My guess is its more related to genetics and good healthy lifestyles.

does your definition of th einternal arts have to involve Qi?

[PangQuan]

Pangquan, there are many records of people living 100+ years all over the world, it's not exclusive to taoist. My guess is its more related to genetics and good healthy lifestyles.

does your definition of th einternal arts have to involve Qi?


Yes there are records of many people other than Taoists living to this age, which I personally pointed out.

My example with the Taoist masters was this: For the thousands of years that the Taoist congregations have been in existance, these prolonged life spans were part of a constant rate. Through their many, many methods the Taoists discovered ways of prolonging their life, and perserving their bodies in a healthy manner throughout their entire lives. Virtually imune to common sickness and internal malfunctions (of course until the winter years of life) they were/are able to consistantly live very long lives.

Does my definition of the internal arts have to involve Qi?

As I am not an internal stylist master, I cannot give you a properly completed definition of interal arts. As no one can do until they have spent many, many years mastering this aspect of martial arts. It is just plain impossible. Its like trying to give a proper deffinition of having sexual intercourse, when you are a virgin. You may have seen the act, been told of the act, but without the experimentation and experience, it is truly impossible for you to do so. In this way it is not possible for you or I to properly discuss this topic. This is why I chose to discuss only an aspect in which I am partially familiar with.

[red5angel]

My example with the Taoist masters was this: For the thousands of years that the Taoist congregations have been in existance, these prolonged life spans were part of a constant rate.

I'd have to see some sort of research on it since I don't know a whole lo about longevity in taoist communities.


As I am not an internal stylist master, I cannot give you a properly completed definition of interal arts. As no one can do until they have spent many, many years mastering this aspect of martial arts. It is just plain impossible. Its like trying to give a proper deffinition of having sexual intercourse, when you are a virgin. You may have seen the act, been told of the act, but without the experimentation and experience, it is truly impossible for you to do so. In this way it is not possible for you or I to properly discuss this topic. This is why I chose to discuss only an aspect in which I am partially familiar with.


Sorry PQ but it just sounds like another classic dodge to me. In this case you have to had studied it for years to understand it. That's part of a consistant problem with "qi" or th einternal arts, somehow it can be explained and you can't understand it until you've studied it for years and years.

Also, I'm going to ask you guys who believe in Qi to no longer say stuff like "it's like trying to explain......" Not one of those examples so far has been an accurate example of anything but my own argument. I understand what you're getting at with those examples, what you're not understanding is that every example provided so far is something that can be explained, pointed to and shown to be a reality. For example, in Pangquans paragraph above, sure a virgin might not understand what sex feels like but sex exists and you can show it to exist very easily. Not the same thing.

[SevenStar]

try to curl a fifty pound barbell. its pretty hard isnt it? now place the fifty pound barbell on the floor and try to pick it up and curl it, much easier huh? speed, proper use of mechanics and velocity will overcome strength anyday.


then why are there weight classes in fight sports?

[Ray Pina]

Red: sorry, I missed some of those other posts. I would consider myself a Taoist and have read alot. What inspires me to do the energy work now is my master -- he's 64 and strong as nails and mobile and looks at least 15 years younger not to mention still fighting -- and the results I can feel and quantify for myself when I do the work with discipline.

It's funny, I was an atheist for a while after my mother died and got heavy into philosophy and my younger brother followed my footsteps. I had some realizations about 8 years ago but my brother has closed himself off now and I feel bad. For years I'd try to give him something to see but its impossible: like me, his mind has created his own reality and his is one without magic. I consider myself somewhat educated and wise, I see the smoke and mirrors, but this is different. I feel the results.


MP: When I fail I look one place ... at myself.

And to be honest with you, at 30 I play harder than most of my younger friends. I just got back from a surf trip with some young amatuers and I was the first one in and the last one out. Surfing from sun up to sun down breaking only for snacks.

But back to fighting: how many daily hours of conditioning do you think it takes for, say, a 35 or 40 year old man to be at the same level as the 19 to 21 year old?

Now, consider that the young kid is also training daily and improving. Now how many hours does the old man need to train?

To me, this seems like a bad investment. It's like me getting into a price war with Bill Gates .... just can't afford it.

I highly respect the competitive fighter and I'm thinking I'll be back in that game by the fall, but I've been learning a lot the past few months from free fighting. Some things I'm learning:

1) Some folks are relying too heavily on being matched up according to weight.

2) Some folks are relying too heavily on a set standard (ie only grappling, no striking, or covered in pads and gloves). I got finger jabbed in the throte the other day, and I have to say, if it was a little better placed, I would have been in trouble.

For example, I know you are highly trained, skilled athlete. If my memory serves me correct, what do you weight in at, 145-150lbs? (going by a photo I think was you)

How would you feel if I matched you up with an unconditioned friend of mine who has spent maybe 5 to 7 years studying a little of this or that but nothing steady, mastering nothing ..... the thing is he's a 400lbs black guy who can kick over a 6' man's head. No gloves.

How would you condition for that?

[Ray Pina]

Let's also cut to the chase. We all just spent pages of typing crediting and discrediting internal martial arts.

I am an internal martial artist who is looking to both gain fight experience and collect fighting footage. I am extremely interested in playing with anyone right now as long as it's MMA gloves or no gloves and they don't mind me taping (I won't post any footage, right now simply collecting).

Also, if interested, I'd like to make it interesting: $500 a bought.

[PangQuan]

In your case red, a pilgramige is in order for you to prove to yourself completely that qi does not exist. Since you are asking us to prove it does exist, means you have not exactly proven it does not exist.

Take a pilgramige, find someone who is said (and not by themselves only, but with a long reputation, or within a monistaic life environment, where they are surrounded by believers) to have mastered internal arts, including qi. This is the only way to prove to yourself that your assumptions are correct.

I know this is a futile debate. This subject has been thrown around millions of times and will be thrown around millions more. I tend to stay out of the whole qi debate. I like to discuss this subject with others who have my same beliefs, and generally in person.

[SevenStar]

Pangquan, you have still failed to define what "Internal Martial arts" is. If meditation is a part of it, then what is the whole?


people have argued on these forums before that internal was nothing more than a term coined by xingyi, taiji and bagua stylists after realizing they shared some similar principles.

Others have argued that 'qi' is merely proper body mechanics....an external thing...

others have said it's bioelectricity, and yet more have said it's something unexplainable that just is.

ya think there's a reason that nobody knows?

[SimonM]

One aspect of internal martial arts is what can be aquired through deep meditation, which I do not know, and I doubt very little if anyone on this forum does.


I'll tell you what benefit deep meditation is. I was raised in a Buddhist household and was learning Zazen when I was six. It assists in physical and mental relaxation even when not meditating which can provide the general health benefits of a more relaxed lifestyle as well as specifically reducing stress. It can help to make you more alert and after long sessions leads to slight, temporary increases in the accuity of senses - particularly hearing and touch. What does this ammount to in a fight? Not a hell of a lot except possibly keeping your cool better but I still reccomend it.

[Merryprankster]

How would you feel if I matched you up with an unconditioned friend of mine who has spent maybe 5 to 7 years studying a little of this or that but nothing steady, mastering nothing ..... the thing is he's a 400lbs black guy who can kick over a 6' man's head. No gloves.

First, I don't really do MMA type stuff. Secondly, I've beat guys who are about twice my weight.

I would be scared ****less of somebody that size. I'm no fool (I walk around at 190 or so). Big is big and size matters. I would have to be very circumspect in my approach to such a person.

But the above is totally changing the subject.

To get it BACK on topic, how much conditioning to match the young guys? How much time?

Intensity is what matters. It would take me about 45 minutes a day outside of normal practice to match their conditioning.

Hard, short, intense and focused. Interval training designed to get your heart rate way way up for short periods of time.

You get more out of blasting for 5 six minute rounds hard then you do putting in roadwork for an hour.

Too much endurance training is bad for a fighter.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Red, Red, Red... whatever will we do with you.. asked and answered.. rant on about how no one answers your questions, we can answer no more.. we cannot make the water wetter.. the only issue is that you haven't heard what you want to hear.. sorry, but keep the faith.. you wear it well..

Now, Red, use the same example of: Virgin is to sex like love is to? that's a better analogy..

Be well..

[PangQuan]

I'll tell you what benefit deep meditation is. I was raised in a Buddhist household and was learning Zazen when I was six. It assists in physical and mental relaxation even when not meditating which can provide the general health benefits of a more relaxed lifestyle as well as specifically reducing stress. It can help to make you more alert and after long sessions leads to slight, temporary increases in the accuity of senses - particularly hearing and touch. What does this ammount to in a fight? Not a hell of a lot except possibly keeping your cool better but I still reccomend it.

Yes this similar explanation has been given to me in the past, as well as explanations of even further levels of meditaion. Unfortunately I was not raised with such an upbringing, so needless to say, I am not that far along in my journey. I am constantly making personaly advances however. Since I have not experienced such things fully, I am not comfortable giving accounts of these things, which have only been described to me.

[red5angel]

he's 64 and strong as nails and mobile and looks at least 15 years younger not to mention still fighting -- and the results I can feel and quantify for myself when I do the work with discipline.


When I was going to college I worked in concrete, a pretty physically demanding labor related job. One of the guys I worked with was 65 year old who did it voluntarily. He could pick up 80lb 8 ft aluminmum forms and throw them over his head.
He fell out of a tree hunting and cracked two ribs, and walked out by himself, and then drove to the hopspital.
He refuses any sort of anestesia when he goes to the dentist.

Ray, we're not currently talking about what works, and who can use it, we're trying to establish what it is.


Since you are asking us to prove it does exist, means you have not exactly proven it does not exist.


No one's been able to provide any sort of concrete evidence it does exist. It's not that hard, if it's an actual phenomena on reality, there should be something credible out there to point too.
As for pilgramage - I don't have to take a pilgramage to understand astronomy, physics, biology, or the martil art I study. why is this the only thing in the world that requires it?



ya think there's a reason that nobody knows?


7, I know there's a reason no one knows. ;)



asked and answered



bzzzzzt! OH I'm sorry taht's the bell, looks like your times run out but before you go let's send you away with a prize for being such a good sport...
stil looking for that answer there taichibob. "Bioelectricity" is not it. ;)

Pangquan, understand I'm not knocking meditation, I think just about everyone could gain something form it. Whether it applies to their martial arts training, I don't know, I suspect that has to do with the person. What I'm trying to understand is what is "Internal" martial arts.
When that question is asked, you get non-answers. Stories about someones "awakening" and "realizations" and the things their masters can do that you have to see to believe and if you haven't felt it it can't be explained. All poppy****. What's the difference between your so called internal martial arts training and my external martial arts training?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Red, you are quite the comedian.. first you say you don't know the answer, then you tell others that their answer is not it.. if you don't know, then you don't know, period. There, you are the challenger, Red, "prove" that "bioelectricity" is not the same as Qi.. i have no burden to support my statement, it is true.. you have stated "stil looking for that answer there taichibob. "Bioelectricity" is not it.".. Bioelectricity is the answer, prove me wrong. <TCB gets chips and beer> this should be entertaining..

Be well, Red

Oh, and do please adhere to the same rules you try to impose on others..

[red5angel]

first you say you don't know the answer, then you tell others that their answer is not it..

when did I say I don't know the answer? I know Qi is bullsh!t, no doubt in my mind.


"bioelectricity" is not the same as Qi..

bioelectricity is exactly that. If you choose to use the word "qi" in place of bioelectricity, that's one thing, but you and I both know that ain't the case so stop playing coy.

[PangQuan]

Red, you have answered this quesion partially yourself on several occasions.

Look at this.

Guy A) trains in martial arts. He learns to punch, kick, jump, roll, fall, dodge, etc...he learns correct postures on how to maintain balance, and use momentum. He also develops an understanding of healing arts, which are interconnected with his martial training. He learns to "feel" what his proper alignment is when performing specific techniques. He meditates on this, finds deeper ways of "feeling" within himself. Eventually he reaches a point where he can physically feel his INTERNAL organs. Can feel the state they are in, can slow his heart rate, can regulate his breath, to match his heart rate, blood pressure and other interconnected internal organ functioning. Through his meditations all of this is continually brought to higher levels of personal internal understanding. He uses this information in connection with his basic kicks, punches, etc. to fight.

Guy B) learns all the attacking stuff, but never develops all of the other aspects that guy A) has. He may naturally develop some, such as body alignment to throw better attacks, but never is brought to the level of "feelling" within himself INTERNALLY.

I bet you anything red, that you yourself have developed many internal aspects of martial arts. But because you view it as all external, when really the barriers between the two should be knocked down and forever forgotten, really there is no differentiation between the two, in the sense that it is all part of the whole truth.

The internal ideal is based upon what you are mentally able to percieve within yourself and what you can "feel" is happening when you do anything.

When you type, do you feel the oxygen being put into your blood stream, and the blood being pumped from your heart, going into your muscles, all triggered by your nervous system, in order to produce muslce reaction to move tendons to make your fingers move? probably not, I dont. But that is the level that is capable of being gained with internal working. Will it help you win a fight? Maybe. Will it give you an edge? Maybe. Do you need it? No. Does everyone practice internal working? to an extent, yes.

In summary, I feel Chuan Tzu has said it well in my first quote down there.
Really its not external vs. internal, or external and internal, it is simply what is capable within our realities of truth and physical realization. For what is viewed as "internal" or "external" are just differnet aspects of our tangable selves.

[Ray Pina]

MP:

OK, so lets say you're doing your 45 minutes of conditioning a day and you are 35 ..... what happens when the 19 year old you are going to fight is also doing 45 minutes a day. Are you equally conditioned?

All this of course is not to say I understand the importance of a certain type of conditioning when fighting: conditioning, power, speed, reflexes, these are all given minimum requirements. If you're the sloppy, out of shape, slow guy you have no chance. If you're training, that's not you anyway.

[SimonM]

Hey Ray, time to change your sig, check your PMs.

[spiraler]

"how strong is your chi does it make your body soft and supple like a newborn" chi exists, unles you want to discredit the many martial arts masters of our time and before us. chi is definately not going to be understood by a person who cannot pecieve truth. chi is a result of relaxation of the mind and body, to learn how to control subtle changes in your body, the buddhist monk damo taght the chinese monks this to improve health and meditation, its called sinking your chi and focusing your mind on the dantien, stomach, the field in which the elixir of immortality grows, it is internal alchemy that was brought forth from self sacrificing taoists devote to disovering the mysteries of the human body and obtaining immortality.(longer life)it is not a special ability and anyone can do it. you just need to learn how to link mind and body. ie when you are mad in your mind it has effects on your body, also when you are sad you cry, so ond so forth,
any traditional martial arts school, or any sport for that matter will bring this principle into play, and you have chi whether you thinkso or not, its not as mystical as we all like to believe, chi translates to air or breath, that is a hint isnt it, breathing and bodily performance is directly entwined, there fore all chi gung does is simply teach you how to breathe in a way that energizes and invigorates your body. air , breath, chi, whatever you want to call it, you can live for weeks without food, days without water, but only minutes without air.(breath,chi)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Red, you're a hoot!! You can't play by your own rules..

bioelectricity is exactly that. If you choose to use the word "qi" in place of bioelectricity, that's one thing, but you and I both know that ain't the case so stop playing coy. i asked you.. no, i challenged you to "prove" that Bio-electricity is not Qi.. you failed miserably.. you evaded any semblance of a factual discourse.. you are worse than those you rant at..

"If you choose to use the word "qi" in place of bioelectricity, that's one thing"
What if i choose to use the word "Wu" in place of Martial?.. or Quan in place of fist or form.. or lao in place of old, or tzu in place of master.. get the picture?

when did I say I don't know the answer? I know Qi is bullsh!t, no doubt in my mind. Qi is, at its simplest, is another culture's perception of the process of Life.. you pontificate and deride a culture as though you had some great insight into its nature, you do not.. to you Qi represents the unknown, and like most children, you fear the unknown.. Qi is NOT a mystery or mystical, it merely asks for an open mind, and it is here, Red, that you depart the discussion, mind closed and locked..

Be well

[red5angel]

booberino - I didn't bother because you haven't bothered. If you had deserved or warranted and answer you might have got one. when you finally step up, we'll talk. Til then be well :rolleyes:

[Merryprankster]

OK, so lets say you're doing your 45 minutes of conditioning a day and you are 35 ..... what happens when the 19 year old you are going to fight is also doing 45 minutes a day. Are you equally conditioned?

Probably.

But this isn't in isolation Ray, and you know it. Other factors come in to play. If "all other things are equal," then the more conditioned fighter will win.

But nothing is ever "all other things are equal." Trying to make concrete statements about this is ludicrous - as is claiming "well, I shouldn't spend that much time on this because I have no hope of matching it."

You need to be in as good as shape as you can be, without sacrificing other elements of your fight training. It might be the difference between lasting the last 30 seconds and thus winning or losing the fight. And there is certainly a law of diminishing returns as you pointed out.

I'm not suggesting that conditioning is somehow the magic bullet in "the real world." I believe it's terribly important, but its not nearly as important as it is for competition....

and is it more important to drill for 45 minutes or condition? The answer will depend on what ELSE you are doing. However, that extra 45 minutes of drilling may not make the difference - conditioning may be a bigger return on your investment. In fact, it probably will be because.....

"Fatigue makes cowards of us all."

"If you have a strong opponent, and he gets tired, he's no longer strong. If you have a fast opponent, and he gets tired, he's no longer fast. If you have a technical opponent, and he gets tired, he's no longer technical."

These are sayings in the wrestling world for a reason. In competition, all the physical and technical tools in the world will do nothing for you if you're too gassed to do anything about it.

Nobody is saying you have to have an unlimited gas tank. But relegating conditioning to second tier is foolish and unwise from a competition standpoint.

[PangQuan]

So, Red, I guess Im gonna have to step out from here on this one. My last post was as good as I, personally, can put it into words.

I really hope it helps shed some light as to what I usually mean when Im spouting my crap.

On a side note, I really do have to thank you Red, for pushing the issue so often, it gives me excellent angles from which to spark my personal contemplation of martial arts, taoisim, and life in general. so THANKS ! :)

[PangQuan]

im pretty sure this thread is about understanding that 25% is part of the 100%, and not denying it. No one said that only internal is good. That would be rediculous. well cept YZDZ anyhow. but hes rediculous.

[Mutant]

you guys still arguing over this topic?!? :rolleyes: and apperently made no progress... man wtf :confused:

[PangQuan]

I feel that we have made some progress. Well I did anyway. Screw everyone else, its all about my experiences.

[Vash]

Hippies suxors.

[PangQuan]

Good thing im not a hippy. I may be peaceful but if you screw me, I will rip out your heart through your @sshole and drink the blood from your major arteries. While your children watch. Thats the freedom of taoism, your aloud to be evil, as long as your wronged first. We may bend, but remember we snap back twice as hard.

[spiraler]

What's the difference between "internal" and "external" method in:

- Striking?
- Kicking?
- Locking?
- Throwing?

Can Qi be used in kicking, locking, or throwing? I guess not. So Qi can only be used in 25% of the CMA. Why waste your life time in only 25% of the total picture?

wow, some conclusion you have drawn for yourself here. okay, im no master. but what do you think qi is? qi translates to english as "breath". it doesnt mean hadoken, or kamehameha, or tai blast or whatever, have you ever asked yourself why your limbs move at your command? what makes them move? your mind controls your body, your intent controls your actions. there is no real difference between "internal" and "external" methods. one would classify karate or mma as external, and tai chi internal, i wouldnt. both arts take skill, strength and speed to succeed in, and each with a skilled practitioner is deadly in their own way. my opinion? instead of closing your mind to a certain "piece" of the grand design of martial arts, why not interweave the true essence of martial arts into your training.a true martial artist would have both internal and external proficiency,
if he did not, he/she would be wasting their lifetime in only 25% of the picture.

[PangQuan]

I think we are pretty well on the same page here spiraler, our beliefs in some areas may differ, but in the aspect of internal external being one, we level.

[Vash]

have you ever asked yourself why your limbs move at your command? what makes them move?

Indeed.

I also asked several people who knew what they were talking about.

They said the following: electrochemical transmission of impulse, excitement of muscle cell membrane, release of calcium, atp et al.

Of course, they didn't know teh qi (la), so they're probably wrong.

[spiraler]

[QUOTE=Vash]Indeed.

I also asked several people who knew what they were talking about.

They said the following: electrochemical transmission of impulse, excitement of muscle cell membrane, release of calcium, atp et al.

your intent has the potential to control all of this.-mindstates-

[Vash]

It's not mystical - it's physiological.

With that having been said, pass the kool-aid.

[Becca]

ok, I though there was someone who had lived for like 700 years not including Methuselah but I'm not expert on it, Regardless, it stilll underlines my point :D
Abraham did. If I'm not mistaken he was the longest lived person in the book of Exodus.


and, just to keep pace with some of our more SciFi-tuned viewers, Seth was a false god and was only recently killed by a visiting dignitary of the TokRa. Just north of Seatle, I think. :eek: ;) :D

[Becca]

I'm not going to try to convince you or anyone, anymore, whether or not chi does/doesn't exist. My approach is based on 23 years of MA experience. I was "Told" a lot of stuff by my teachers. But I base my understanding of things from what I've seen, felt, and done, rather than what somone else has told me or believes to be true.

BTW, are you at all asscociated with the Pai Lum folks in Milwaukee, WI?
Sort of, I guess. As in, I 've never met any of them, so I don't assosiae with them, but we are of the same general linieage, yes. To the best of my knowledge all of the Long Shr still meat regularly to argue over who is or isn't the grandmaster now that Grand Master Pai has passed away.


(runs ducking from some unseen chi bolt...) :eek: :p

[themeecer]

Good gracious .. this again? I think some of you aren't happy unless you are arguing. I have read a few scientific studies that pointed towards a likelihood of chi. If I had them now I would post them. Personally, I don’t need them. Chi is something I have physically felt and experienced. I’ve seen others experience this for their selves as well. I have a saying I use in my meditation classes; “If you have to ask if what you felt is chi, then it wasn’t. When you experience it … you will know.” If you skeptics really want to know if chi exists .. then stop your arguing and find a good teacher and try it for yourself. That is the only way you will ever know.

[Becca]

What's the difference between "internal" and "external" method in:

- Striking?
- Kicking?
- Locking?
- Throwing?

... Can Qi be used in kicking, locking, or throwing? I guess not. So Qi can only be used in 25% of the CMA. Why waste your life time in only 25% of the total picture?
To someone who is watch but doesn't know what to watch for? Nohing. To the one who has actually took the time to develope the ability to actively use thier chi? Everything. Your mind is clear it is easier to respond correctly. I'm still irratic in my ability to use Chi Gong while sparring, but on the handful of times I have, no one could get through. (like I said earlier, look at the blocks and evasions first, as this is generally the first place one will use thier internal skill when sparring)

Can it be used proactivly? I can't yet, but I have just begun my journey down that road. I've been studying MA for ten years, so this is considerably different than anything else I've ever done, but I have no intention of giving up just because it seems to take along time and alot of practice. :)

[themeecer]

How to apply "internal" method in:

- Elbow strike?
- Head bust?
- Knee strike?
- Front kick?
- Wrist lock?
- Shoulder throw?
- Choke or arm bar on the ground?

If "internal" method only work in hand striking (1/3 of the striking among hand, elbow, head) then "internal" method only work in 1/3 of the 20% (strike, kick, lock, throw, ground fight) which come out to be 6.666% of the total CMA.

So the difference between "internal" and "external" arts is only 6.666%.
Um we train to send it to a lot more than just our hands; we send it to the entirety of our extremities. Study the macro and micro cosmic meditation charts if you want to see the exact areas. We use it in all strikes be it with the hand, foot, elbow … what have you. We also use it for pain management and endurance. We use it for health promotion and longevity. I use it in 100% of what I do in martial arts.

[Merryprankster]

Abraham did. If I'm not mistaken he was the longest lived person in the book of Exodus.

I'm pretty sure it was Methuselah who was the oldest. Hence the expression "As old as Methuselah..." I believe it was Exodus, but I can never be sure....

But many did live to be several hundreds of years old in the Bible.


theemeecer, here is the problem with your post:

Good gracious .. this again? I think some of you aren't happy unless you are arguing. I have read a few scientific studies that pointed towards a likelihood of God. If I had them now I would post them. Personally, I don’t need them. God is something I have physically felt and experienced. I’ve seen others experience this for their selves as well. I have a saying I use in my meditation classes; “If you have to ask if what you felt is God, then it wasn’t. When you experience it … you will know.” If you skeptics really want to know if God exists .. then stop your arguing and find a good teacher and try it for yourself. That is the only way you will ever know.

You're speaking the language of faith, not proof. And that's fine....up until the part where the argument gets the two confused.

I have no problem with people believing in chi - as long as they remember that that is precisely what they are doing - believing. When they start arguing fact, and claiming what should be measurable effects, and other people demand proof of such, the chi-believers have no logical right to get ****y. In the legal parlance "they opened the door." The rest of us are walking through it, asking reasonable, logical questions.

An appropriate conversation would go something like this:

"I believe chi exists because I've felt it and experienced it."

"Oh... is there any proof of this thing called chi?"

"Ah, I should have been more specific, I have experienced things that make me personally believe that chi exists. I don't have any proof if that's what you're looking for."

"Well, isn't that irrational? I mean, if you don't have any proof, why think it exists?"

"Yeah, it's irrational, in the sense that there's no empirical evidence worth a ****. But I have faith that chi exists anyway. You may not believe in it, but I do, even if the evidence isn't there or there are alternative explanations - it's just something that I personally accept as true."

"Oh...well......" *skeptic shuffles off, unless they're just *******s - and many are*


The problem is that chi-zombies seem compelled to try and JUSTIFY their decision to believe - it's like walking in a mall and getting accosted by Jesus freaks who won't let you go until they hand you the "creationism" pamphlet. Shockingly, this evokes a negative reaction in many people.

I mean, who the hell are you (universal you, not YOU) trying to convince, us or you?

[Becca]

I'm pretty sure it was Methuselah who was the oldest. Hence the expression "As old as Methuselah..." I believe it was Exodus, but I can never be sure....

It's the Book of Exodus, I just wasn't 100% sure who was the oldest. Abriham lived into his 900s. I have no idea about Methuselah, though...


The problem is that chi-zombies seem compelled to try and JUSTIFY their decision to believe - it's like walking in a mall and getting accosted by Jesus freaks who won't let you go until they hand you the "creationism" pamphlet. Shockingly, this evokes a negative reaction in many people.

I mean, who the hell are you (universal you, not YOU) trying to convince, us or you?
Convince? Nobody. I just love arguing with narrow minded eyots who refuse to admit that not having proof don't make it fake. I also enjoy a good debate, but every time one of those gets started, one of the Narrow Minded Ones butts in and turns it into a pi ssing contest... :rolleyes:

[Merryprankster]

I just love arguing with narrow minded eyots who refuse to admit that not having proof don't make it fake.

While that is true, the burden of proof is on the claimant, not the skeptic. Because by the same token, not having proof don't make it real, either.

My point being that if you want it to be "accepted," then you have to provide evidence. Otherwise, it's just faith. Which, as I said, was fine. I can't prove or disprove the existence of God.

But I can demonstrate He's not necessary. Similarly, "chi" is not necessary, unless I presuppose its existence, which begs the question.

[themeecer]

Please provide more detail information how you can apply Chi or "internal" method in your "front kick" or "elbow strike". Thanks in advance!
More information?!?! Ugh. In order for you to understand I would have to train you for 2 years. At our school we spend a year on the hou tien chi training .. which 'wakes' up your chi ... generates it stronger .. basically make you aware of it. At this point it controls your body. Year two would be spent on the sien tien chi .. in which you, in your infancy, start by moving your chi from your tan tien to other points on the microcosmic circle. Later you move on to the macrocosmic. Later you move on to something else. We practice in various positions, that way we can more easily send our chi no matter how our bodies are oriented. We practice striking drills in which we send it to the striking limb. Heck, I didn't understand it till I did it. I thought it might be some hippy aura feel good stuff that is a placebo to make you train. But once I did feel it … there was no denying it. I even tried to stop it to see if it would start up on its own … just in case I was subconsciously making it do that on my own. It grew even stronger. I’ve taught students who had no idea what to expect … and saw them produce the exact same kind of results, which indicated that it wasn’t simply a subconscious mimicking result.

I know .. this isn’t proof to you. I don’t care. I am simply stating, how I know. If you’re open minded and want to explore the possibilities, find a good teacher. Ask some of these other internalists on here of some good schools. I don’t know of many by name but could tell by visiting. Heck even a bad school may get you started on the right path. Just be careful about ones who have videos of them controlling students through closed doors and making them act like banshees.

[Fu-Pow]

The problem is that chi-zombies seem compelled to try and JUSTIFY their decision to believe - it's like walking in a mall and getting accosted by Jesus freaks who won't let you go until they hand you the "creationism" pamphlet. Shockingly, this evokes a negative reaction in many people.

I mean, who the hell are you (universal you, not YOU) trying to convince, us or you?


Here's the problem dude. People feel compelled to justify their experience because people like yourself or like red5angel feel compelled to ask for that justification.

BUT....and that's a very big BUT......

Not all knowledge that we have obtained as a species was obtained by propositional truth (ie Science) ie If x then y.

As meecer is pointing out sometimes you have to PARTCIPATE to know if there is truth to what someone is saying or not. You have to participate to know if they are being truthful about their experience. You have to walk the path that I have walked.

The concept of Chi has been around for 2000+ years and Chinese people have used the concept in relation to medicine and martial arts just as long.

So either it works on some level or your talking about billions and billlions of FLAT OUT LIARS!!!!

Its about TRUTHFULNESS, not TRUTH (as in propositional truth. )

Until you get that then we'll keep going around and around with you asking for some propositional truth and us telling you that you need to participate to experience what we're talking about.

Eventually science will catch up and we'll get the details of whats going on in the body in regards to Chi and what its all about. But until then we'll just have to rely on the experiment thats been going on for 1000's and 1000's of years.

[Vash]

**** hippies suck.

[themeecer]

**** hippies suck.
They sure do.

[Shaolinlueb]

reading this thread makes me not want to appreciate internal martial arts.

[SimonM]

Fu Pow when you are crying against "science" you are actually railing against Aristotelian Logic. Now mind, the logical system devised by Aristotle is the simplest of logical systems however it has been said:

The simplest explaination is the most likely.


The simplest explaination for Qi phenomena is that they represent an attempt by a culture which did not apply logical empirical techniques to all processes of knowledge to understand the bio-mechanics of the human body when used in conjunction with an intuitive grasp of (essentially) newtonian level physics. Through the manipulation of vectors of approach and inertia combined with an intimate knowlege of how the various bits of the human body were connected, how much any given part can flex in any direction, how the human body is balanced from various postures, etc. Martial artists in china were able to create a comprehensive group of systems of martial arts that were derived not by overpowering the opponent but rather by using the opponent's own kinetic energy to their disadvantage. Now in medaeval China they didn't have terms like "bio-mechanics", "vector of approach", "inertia" and "kinetic energy" - all products of Scientific thought but they did have the Taiji/Wuji concept floating around and it fit. So the concept of Taiji/Wuji was expanded into the concept of Qi and this in turn was used to paradigmatically incorporate medaeval Chinese Bio-Mechanics, medicine (which was often quite advanced, Accupuncture is a very effective and subtle form of nerve science) and physics.

Now we are more aware of the nature of the energies involved (kinetic for the most part) in "internal" arts. This has lead to the development of three approximate positions:

1: Qi doesn't work therefore the internal arts have no validity.
2: Qi is real we just don't understand how it works / science can't explain everything.
3: We now have a greater understanding of how to apply the principles that once made internal arts feared in China. With this we can inform our training in such a way as to make use of these arts effectively in combat without the baggage of 2000 year old mysticism.

I tend to fall into the third camp. Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua and other "internal" styles do have elements that (just like the "external" stykes) are useful in combat and elements that frankly are big no-no's; especially in their recent training methodologies. I also am a rational person who attempts to apply logic to problems. I gave up on believing in magic years ago, so I tend not to believe that a martial art is powered by the Star Wars Force. I won't throw the baby out with the bathwater though so I take what works and ignore the rest.

[Fu-Pow]

SimonM-

Thanks for that nice response and when I have more time I'll respond in more detail.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But I'm not just referring to Qi in terms of martial arts but also traditional chinese medicine (ie herbology, acupuncture, massage, etc). There seems to be an intimate connection between the martial arts and the medical side.

Gotta go.

Oh and BTW, I work in biomedical science and I have a huge amount of respect for what Science can do. But from my experience in research I am beginning to understand the limitations of what it can and can't do. Some people seem to think that it can do more than it can. I believe that it stems from a problem with how science is reported in the media. Scientists are portrayed as all knowing sages by the popular media. In reality, their research is often highly focused and they are wan to extrapolate conclusions from research that isn't conclusive at all.

Peace.

[PaiLumDreamer]

red5angel

This excuse has been used before and as poetic as it is, it holds no water. A scientist can explain in exact and accurate terms what "Red" is. This doesn't allow a blind person to percieve the color red, but it can be explained and that's the point.

The only point I was trying to make is if you dont have basic understanding of something like sight, red would still be a foreign color, despite what a scientist could say. "It has so much of such and such, and a little bit of such and such, and when light reflects it makes the color red" yadda yadda whatever they would say...

But the blind person still doesnt understand what "red" really is.

Is "Qi" really a simple concept? I dont think so, so explaining it to someone is a little bit difficult unless you're willing to meditate on the subject.

PangQuan said that meditation is a big part of internal martial arts. I agree: meditation helps build an understanding of those types of abstract concepts. (not to mention other benifits :P)

Anyway...I got lazy and didnt read the rest of the topic, just had to reply.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The initial and fundamental problem, as i see it, is that we have no agreed upon definition if Qi.. externalists grasp at mystical so as to invalidate that which they don't understand.. internalists shun mystical, recognizing that Qi just another natural process, but somehow fall into the trap of arguing about "mystical"..

Again, Qi is most appropriately (for me) is referred to as "Life-force", that energy that animates otherwise inert chemicals and compounds.. and, since so many people sense "Life-force" to be somehow mystical, i also refer to it as bio-electricity..


... Can Qi be used in kicking, locking, or throwing? I guess not. So Qi can only be used in 25% of the CMA. Why waste your life time in only 25% of the total picture?
I am somewhat confused by attempts to add % this or that, Life-force or energy or bio-electrical energy is present at every level of every movement and every thought.. it is the common element to ALL of it.. i can, you can, we all can (many already have) cultivated a stronger purer life-force (like differing grades of fuel).. and it will serve internalists and externalists equally.. in short, it is two sides of the same coin.. some people are willing to see both sides, others only get half the picture.. and, energies cultivated with hostility will always compromise its purity..

Prove it, they say.. i say do your own research, we have.. and it's out there and growing daily.. There are several threads in the "internal forum" that go for many pages of research study after research study.. skeptics, read a little, it really doesn't hurt, and.. you might actually learn something..

Vash: "hippies Suck"?.. Why make such a hostile statement, Vash? It demonstrates a lack of dignity, compassion and honor, but.. i see more and more of that from the EO (External Only) crowd.. I know too many "hippies" that are in the top 2% of performance athletes, the difference being that they have open minds and true understanding of freedom, i am fond of the Hippy/Bohemian philosophy.. and i will negotiate toward a peaceful resolution of any conflict.. but, if those negotiations fail, i can manage physical negotiations quite well..

One coin, two sides.. and you can't spend only one side..

Be well..

[SimonM]

But I'm not just referring to Qi in terms of martial arts but also traditional chinese medicine (ie herbology, acupuncture, massage, etc). There seems to be an intimate connection between the martial arts and the medical side.


I am aware of that and did address it.



So the concept of Taiji/Wuji was expanded into the concept of Qi and this in turn was used to paradigmatically incorporate medaeval Chinese Bio-Mechanics, medicine (which was often quite advanced, Accupuncture is a very effective and subtle form of nerve science) and physics.


China was a relatively technologically advanced culture. What they missed is that they did not systematize their approach to technological development very much. Their herbology and (of course) accupuncture were good medicines. However just because something works doesn't make the reasons we believe it to work true. For an example from science:

Gravity works exactly how Newton suggested it should until you start dealing with objects of greater than one solar mass. However Newtonian Physics was demonstrated to be not as correct as Relativity.

In the case of Chinese Medicine and Chinese Martial Arts a paradigm was developed around the concepts of Taiji and Wuji to explain why their various manipulations of the human system (to improve or damage health) worked as they did. Their explainations for why the techniques of Taijiquan or of Accupuncture worked were probably not correct. It wasn't a magical force being manipulated. The techniques still worked though. The danger is when more attention is paid to the theory than to the technique. It is in technique that knowledge and skill are to be gained, the theory is in the end only so much philosophy.



Oh and BTW, I work in biomedical science and I have a huge amount of respect for what Science can do.

<SNIP>

Scientists are portrayed as all knowing sages by the popular media. In reality, their research is often highly focused and they are wan to extrapolate conclusions from research that isn't conclusive at all.



That's fine. However as I said at the begining of my post I am not applying Science. I am applying Logic. Science is one of the end products of Logic as is Technology and Rationalization. All of these things have both advantages and disadvantages but despite the fact that I don't personally agree with all that has been done with Science, Technology or in the name of Rationality I still feel that Logic is the most effective process of cognition for solving problems. :D



Again, Qi is most appropriately (for me) is referred to as "Life-force", that energy that animates otherwise inert chemicals and compounds.. and, since so many people sense "Life-force" to be somehow mystical, i also refer to it as bio-electricity..


OK Bob, let's look at Qi from this direction.

We can define "Life Force" in a few possible ways:

1: The force generated by living systems. Ok, I think the phrase Bio-Mechanics covers this. As I (one of the alleged "externalists" I think) have described part of the actual reason behind Qi phenomena countless times without people like Vash calling me a "hippy".

2: Force latent in living systems. Kinetic Energy, Chemical Energy. Those are the two big ones. Physics covers Kinetic Energy, Biology covers Chemical Energy. Still seeing nothing that present scientific disciplines hasn't come up with succinct and easy-to-understand paradigms for understanding.

3: Force that can be drawn on by living systems. Well if you are talking about chemical energy derived from eating food, drinking water or other such processes we are still are on even ground. When people start talking about more unusual methods they tend to fall into the ether of pseudo-science or mysticism. Down this path leads madness like No Touch KO's.

4: Bio-Electricity. Unless you mean that you think you can electrocute people with Taiji (I am sure you don't) I don't know what you mean by this. Do you believe that Taiji increases the efficiency of nerve impulse? As a result I find this to be an inadequate definition to the term "life force" - no offence.

As for life-force
{edited by SimonM for grammatical reasons only} animating otherwise inert chemicals and compounds you must realize that the compounds and chemicals that compose living systems are far from inert.

There are constant processes of degradation and repair that go on throughout a living system. These are largely chemical processes to the most part. Now you have two choices when you make the assertation that living systems are chemically volatile. Either the processes that occur are simple chemical processes based on the laws of Chemistry or they are consciously controlled.

Now if you assume that every chemical process is controlled by a conscious force you have to select what that consciousness is. If it is the consciousness of the individual it is down through the process of bio-feedback which is well doccumented by psychology and biology. This is neither an electrical nor a mystical process but a mental one based on control of chemical intake (through food, water, respiration) and output (through rate of nutrient consumption, and level of water waste for the most part).

Though these feats are impressive ones of self-control they fit within existing scientific paradigms and need not depend on the Taiji/Wuji paradigm to be explained. If you are proposing that "life-force" is a conscious force outside the individual you have entered the realm of mysticism and thus deserve the criticism for having based your training regimen on mysticism rather than logic.

If you don't believe Life Force to be inherently conscious independent of the individual, why do you cling to the Taiji/Wuji paradigm to explain your practice?

[themeecer]

Body mechanics ... blah blah blah ... bioelectricity (no offense tai chi bob).... blah blah blah .... life force ... blah blah blah

This is retarded. Here we have blind men telling other men looking directly at a rainbow that there is no such thing as a rainbow. You aren't going to understand until you experience yourself, and I garner that 99.9% of you chi skeptics will not attempt that path. Just remain ignorant .. you seem to be happy about it. I'm kind of tickled pink that you don't understand, makes what I have more special.

I think what has irked me the most about this thread and others is the disrespect I have seen shown to other practioners who have many more years on most of us. Just because some of you disagree it doesn't give you a license to disrespect individuals like Tai Chi Bob. He has 30+ years experience, he deserves your respect. Heck, I try to show that respect to any teacher who has stuck it out for that long. I always refer to the tae kwon do teacher in town as Master so and so instead of by his first name. I won't allow my students to talk bad of his school. I was taught this basic respect as part of my training. It is sad that some of you have either forgot that or was never taught it.

[themeecer]

Question: How many of you have experienced micro and macrocosmic circles or kundalini or breath before or after birth or other definate chi gung experiences. (Not sure of all the various names out there, but I know there are several paths that can be taken on this journey.)

(Bleh .. I just sounded like a fortune cookie)

[SimonM]

I thought this board was about the free and open exchange of information.

If TaiChiBob or Fu-Pow or whoever pops up and says: I know the true path to being a good martial artist and it is Qi they can expect people to say: explain how. And if the best explaination they can propose is either:

1: It just works, don't ask how because you won't understand.
2: It's magic.
3: It's bio-electricity.

You have to expect me to ask questions like: Why do you think this considering this point?

Now I have tried very hard to avoid directly attacking Fu-Pow or TaiChiBob as people, rather I have tried to subject their assertations to logical process. I'm sure that both are big enough to handle that and I look foreward to their replies. But if the best argument you can come up with is that I am a blind-man who is incapable of showing respect I don't think you measure up. Surely you can come up with a better explaination for how "internal" martial arts work than to just say that those of us who disagree over why they include effective techniques won't understand until we experience it.

Pre-Birth breathing is a meditative technique designed to increase awareness of the breath. That is it's primary point of efficacy for anything. As a good fighter will tell you it is important to be conscious of your breath when fighting so you don't get tired. But again more attention is paid to the explaination for how the technique is supposed to work than to actually learning the lessons of the technique: calmness and breath control. But to say that it opens Qi Flows sounds so much more poetic. :p

[Christopher M]

INTERNAL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH QI, IT'S JUST A BRANCH OF MARTIAL ARTS

The most famous qigongs are from Shaolin for pity's sake.

[Fu-Pow]

[quote]
China was a relatively technologically advanced culture. What they missed is that they did not systematize their approach to technological development very much. Their herbology and (of course) accupuncture were good medicines. However just because something works doesn't make the reasons we believe it to work true. For an example from science:

[quote]
That's fine. However as I said at the begining of my post I am not applying Science. I am applying Logic. Science is one of the end products of Logic as is Technology and Rationalization. All of these things have both advantages and disadvantages but despite the fact that I don't personally agree with all that has been done with Science, Technology or in the name of Rationality I still feel that Logic is the most effective process of cognition for solving problems. :D[quote]


Well, again, I think that you are misunderstanding how science works. Mostly because of how science is portrayed in the media. While there is some veracity to the "scientific method" most major scientific discoveries were kind of stumbled upon. It often wasn't a stepwise logical process but rather something someone intuited or stumbled across accidentally.

Rather than using the word "systematized" I would say that "Science" is institutionalized. That means that it is resistant to change and everyone in Science stumbles around in the same paradigm until somebody, usually outside of the institution shakes up that paradigm.

Darwin was laughed at, Watson and Crick got lucky, the guy that basically invented Polymerase Chain Reaction is quoted as saying "I learned more from taking LSD then I ever did from graduate school."

Whats changed in science compared to even 20 years ago is that it has become very expensive to do science. It takes millions of dollars to do basic biomedical research. That means that institutions become even more powerful in deciding what kind of "science" gets done. And it becomes even less likely that an "outsider" can shake it up.

So something like Qi is ruled out by the "priests of science" because it doesn't fit into the current scientific paradigm.

[SimonM]

Darwin was laughed at, Watson and Crick got lucky, the guy that basically invented Polymerase Chain Reaction is quoted as saying "I learned more from taking LSD then I ever did from graduate school."


On the other hand there are a lot of scientists who did a lot of hard work and deductive reasoning to solve a problem. Look as Sir Frederick Banting and the development of Insulin, one of the biggest medical breakthroughs of the 20th century. The same can be said of the Curies and their work with Radium, of Oppenheimer and nuclear arms (though I personally wish he had failed) or of Pasteur and his work with Anthrax. However as I said before (as you quoted me saying) I was not applying any particular discipline of science to the issue of Qi, simply Logic. Logic says (without any science) that it is more likely that people learn how to control themselves physically in space in order to optimize their ability to manipulate vectors of force than that they learn to push some un-substantiated, un-quantifiable, not empirically observable force around their body.

When I was in OAC (Grade 13 - formerly offered in Ontario as a prerequisite to universiy) I took a course called Science and Society. In that course one thing we worked on quite a bit was the difference between science and technology. Look at it this way:

Technology are the products of human thought they include:

Cars
Guns
Medicine
Kung Fu
Computers
etc.

These days most of our technologies are developed from science but they are not in and of themselves direct products of science. Technologies have in the past come from informal sources (random inventors - plough, pottery, etc.) or from religious sources (medaeval European medicine) . Even today many "inventors" do not have a background in the physical sciences. I discussed the technologies of Kung Fu and of Accupuncture and how they related to the non-scientific paradigm of Taiji/Wuji or to the scientific paradigms of physics, chemistry and biology merely to demonstrate how more succinct definitions have been developed.

[SimonM]

- I can feel Chi but you can't so I'm better then you.


You will never be better than me. :D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


If TaiChiBob or Fu-Pow or whoever pops up and says: I know the true path to being a good martial artist and it is Qi they can expect people to say: explain how. And if the best explaination they can propose is either: Well, IF i had ever even implied such a notion i would expect to be challenged, quite the contrary.. i have only ever related my personal experiences or my first-hand knowledge, and NEVER claimed superiority OR the "true" way.. i have asserted, and continue to assert, that training in both internal and external has improved MY Martial Art more than either individually...

Life-force, hmmmm.. okay, you guys want ammo to use against ME, here it is, but, try to be focused and remember i speak only for myself, not ALL Taiji (internal) players.. The following represents Bob's opinion and belief and nothing else: There is a single pervasive primal force/energy, perhaps a single frequency (maybe Om), from which all things flow (the Source) and all things are manifested.. with focus and discipline i can better use that energy (and, i like to call it Qi) Qi for all aspects of my life including MA.. the techniques i use are often classified as internal.. this Qi energy is, by my account, simply another name for Tao, for God, for The Great Spirit, for all those things that are used by humanity to describe what mankind inherently knows but lacks the capacity to explain.. that part of human existence outside the confines of flesh and bone (i can hear it now, whew!!!!).. i understand my existence to be One thing behaving many ways and i am one of the "ways".. one mind shared by all, according to our individual levels of awareness.. i understand that i can cultivate the awareness and the quality of energy used by the flesh and bone to fine tune this physical machine where the One energy expresses itself in "my" particular way.. and, i choose to do this in accordance with principles that have thousands of years of history and refinement supporting them.. (Taiji/QiGong)..

I DO NOT contend against science, unless it is proffered by shortsighted dolts.. science is a great tool, but it is just a tool.. at the end of the day, it is the imagination of the human mind, its creativity and intuitiveness that leads science on its quest to "know" and imparts new quests.. I don't understand everything i know, but.. from that "knowing" i live a rich and rewarding life and my MA serves its purpose (my purpose).. i really hardly ever find need nor want to conflict with others.. that "externalists" find their peace in their beliefs, is very cool, and i have no quarrel.. why, then, i have to wonder, do "externalists" become so aggravated with others.. Oh, yeah, i remember, because of fraud and trickery.. in case we haven't noticed, there is only fraud and trickery where it is invited in.. most people "choose" to be fooled, they begin by fooling themselves before buying into the trickery of others.. if they're not bying "mystical" this or that, it will be some other tripe.. Now, i'm sure someone will point out that my beliefs are "mystical".. well, no, they aren't.. they are based largely on Quantum Physics and the Unified Field Theory.. yeah, i know, the Scientismists will eat that one up, too.. but, remember, it's MY opinion AND my belief.. AND i don't ask others to buy into it... i just figured i should put it all out there and let it fall where it may.. Taiji and QiGong have served me well.. no one can disagree with that.. Karate, Aikido, Kung Fu, and other arts i have studied have served me well, too.. and, for the skeptics, i will cross hands just for the pure fun of it, regardless of intent.. Win, lose or draw, i will jump into the experience just to add one more experience to the being that is Me.....

For the record, a person can study Martial Arts for 50 years incorrectly and be no better off than a novice.. a novice can study under agreat teacher for only a few years and rise above so many others.. we all refer to our tenure with some pride, i do it as well.. but, when all is said and done.. do you have any regrets? i have only 3 so i count myself among the fortunate..

I try not to disagree with others disrespectfully because i am truly looking to discuss and learn.. i wish others would adopt a similar attitude. There is no reason on a forum where we have time to think and respond, to resort to profanity, disrespect or inciteful commentary, that is simply a signature of Ones' nature/character.. Though, i do tend to give what i am given, even then i hope to be more respectful than my detractor(s)..

Whew!!! Now, just to deflect criticsm before it slams me, i have an interesting question: Are we what we think we are, or.. are we that which does the thinking.. (think about it :D )

Be well..

[Happeh]

Now I have tried very hard to avoid directly attacking Fu-Pow or TaiChiBob as people, rather I have tried to subject their assertations to logical process. I'm sure that both are big enough to handle that and I look foreward to their replies. But if the best argument you can come up with is that I am a blind-man who is incapable of showing respect I don't think you measure up. Surely you can come up with a better explaination for how "internal" martial arts work than to just say that those of us who disagree over why they include effective techniques won't understand until we experience it.

:p


You make a reasonable point. Let's start slow and work up.

This is for the people who say that there is no internal martial arts. You can't understand internal martial arts unless you understand internal power. You can't understand internal power until you can do internal power.

If you cannot do internal power the only thing you can do is have an understanding of how internal power expresses itself. How it looks from the outside.


Watch this video clip. It is about 15 seconds long. This is internal power. It is from a cartoon.

http://www.happeh.com/ForumVideos/BulmaHanging.avi

DivX

[Vash]

You make a reasonable point. Let's start slow and work up.

This is for the people who say that there is no internal martial arts. You can't understand internal martial arts unless you understand internal power. You can't understand internal power until you can do internal power.

If you cannot do internal power the only thing you can do is have an understanding of how internal power expresses itself. How it looks from the outside.


Watch this video clip. It is about 15 seconds long. This is internal power. It is from a cartoon.

http://www.happeh.com/ForumVideos/BulmaHanging.avi

DivX

:eek:

****, we just got schooled.

[Merryprankster]

He has 30+ years experience, he deserves your respect.

No offense to anybody, but this is just wrong. He doesn't DESERVE my respect for this nor does he deserve anybody else's.

I've met plenty of people with tons of experience who were incompetent, *******s, stupid, etc.

TC Bob, none of this is commentary on you. It's just a disagreement with the principle.

I am reminded, for instance, of the difference between a senior officer and a superior officer....and there is definitely a difference. I respect the latter. I merely have to obey the former.

[SimonM]

The following represents Bob's opinion and belief and nothing else: There is a single pervasive primal force/energy, perhaps a single frequency (maybe Om), from which all things flow (the Source) and all things are manifested.. with focus and discipline i can better use that energy (and, i like to call it Qi) Qi for all aspects of my life including MA.. the techniques i use are often classified as internal.. this Qi energy is, by my account, simply another name for Tao, for God, for The Great Spirit, for all those things that are used by humanity to describe what mankind inherently knows but lacks the capacity to explain..

Ok Bob, a question for you then. If you describe the fundamental source for Qi as "a single frequency from which all things flow... and all things are manifested" this raises a very fundamental question:

What is it a frequency of?

Please note I am not being an ass and assuming you mean radio waves or any other particular spectrum of quantafiable energy. Thing is that if it is an actual energy form (which you imply it is) it will be quantafiable. If it is quantafiable it will work within the boundaries of the form of energy which it is, electrical energy, kinetic energy, all these things function according to verifiable, observable processes and can be detected using dispassionate third party tests. If Qi is such it should be possible to construct a third party test (say... essentially - though I emphatically state that I am not implying any specific relationship between this proposed energy and electricity - a Qi volt meter).

Or perhaps Qi is not a unified energy source but rather, as I proposed waaay back, a grab bag of knowlege of biology, bio-mechanics and physics applied intuitively and unified under a not-necessarily accurate paradigmatic explaination.

[themeecer]

No offense to anybody, but this is just wrong. He doesn't DESERVE my respect for this nor does he deserve anybody else's.

I've met plenty of people with tons of experience who were incompetent, *******s, stupid, etc.

TC Bob, none of this is commentary on you. It's just a disagreement with the principle.

I am reminded, for instance, of the difference between a senior officer and a superior officer....and there is definitely a difference. I respect the latter. I merely have to obey the former.
Well, he has my respect. He was training when some of us were still pooping our diapers. Question ... are you also the type who when a guest in another's school would beat the instructor in front of his students (if you were able to), if he was demonstrating something on you or for whatever reason you two squared off? I am not that type. I will take the fall out of respect.

[spiraler]

then why are there weight classes in fight sports?


fear, lack of training.

[spiraler]

[QUOTE=red5angel] I know Qi is bullsh!t, no doubt in my mind.



bioelectricity is exactly that.

makes sense.

[spiraler]

[QUOTE=Merryprankster]
. Similarly, "chi" is not necessary, youre right it isnt"necessary"

[spiraler]

Fu Pow when you are crying against "science" you are actually railing against Aristotelian Logic. Now mind, the logical system devised by Aristotle is the simplest of logical systems however it has been said:

The simplest explaination is the most likely.


The simplest explaination for Qi phenomena is that they represent an attempt by a culture which did not apply logical empirical techniques to all processes of knowledge to understand the bio-mechanics of the human body when used in conjunction with an intuitive grasp of (essentially) newtonian level physics. Through the manipulation of vectors of approach and inertia combined with an intimate knowlege of how the various bits of the human body were connected, how much any given part can flex in any direction, how the human body is balanced from various postures, etc. Martial artists in china were able to create a comprehensive group of systems of martial arts that were derived not by overpowering the opponent but rather by using the opponent's own kinetic energy to their disadvantage. Now in medaeval China they didn't have terms like "bio-mechanics", "vector of approach", "inertia" and "kinetic energy" - all products of Scientific thought but they did have the Taiji/Wuji concept floating around and it fit. So the concept of Taiji/Wuji was expanded into the concept of Qi and this in turn was used to paradigmatically incorporate medaeval Chinese Bio-Mechanics, medicine (which was often quite advanced, Accupuncture is a very effective and subtle form of nerve science) and physics.

Now we are more aware of the nature of the energies involved (kinetic for the most part) in "internal" arts. This has lead to the development of three approximate positions:

1: Qi doesn't work therefore the internal arts have no validity.
2: Qi is real we just don't understand how it works / science can't explain everything.
3: We now have a greater understanding of how to apply the principles that once made internal arts feared in China. With this we can inform our training in such a way as to make use of these arts effectively in combat without the baggage of 2000 year old mysticism.

I tend to fall into the third camp. Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua and other "internal" styles do have elements that (just like the "external" stykes) are useful in combat and elements that frankly are big no-no's; especially in their recent training methodologies. I also am a rational person who attempts to apply logic to problems. I gave up on believing in magic years ago, so I tend not to believe that a martial art is powered by the Star Wars Force. I won't throw the baby out with the bathwater though so I take what works and ignore the rest.


omfg, ITS NOT MAGIC!!!!!!!!ITS SIMPLE BRATHING CONCENTRATION AND RELAXATION< AND SINKING THE BREATH AND MIND TO THE DANTIEN!!!!!!AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

[spiraler]

chi is a very simple subject, yet it is complicated to explain. can science explain why the body gets hot when you run? also sinking your chi to your dantien slows your heart rate, giving you more fight time and energy.

[spiraler]

heres a good internal ma teacher in action.http://mac.com/mancheta/imovetheater20.html.
http://homepage.mac.com/mancheta/imoviethater17.html.
he also has backround in bjj and some other stuff. his name is tim cartmell, im sure you can google it. if htese links dont work try his website, good stuff.

[SevenStar]

fear, lack of training.

what's sad is that you probably really do believe that.

[spiraler]

sad isnt the word. i would say its sad that you dont belive it just because youre afraid of people who are bigger than you.

[unkokusai]

fear, lack of training.


LOL

What a dope! :rolleyes:

LOL

[unkokusai]

Watch this video clip. It is about 15 seconds long. This is internal power. It is from a cartoon.

http://www.happeh.com/ForumVideos/BulmaHanging.avi

DivX

Say, you're not that psycho from the other forum who said all Asians know about martial arts because of Dragonball Z, are you?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Didn’t read the whole thread sorry if I say something that has been said

No one can prove or disprove it in words. Having just come back from Beijing my teachers teachings are based on developing the shen, yi, and qi. There are things felt and done that can not be explained out side of the Chinese model for what they are. Its not mystical, its just part of the practice that people work with.

Even some of the more amazing things are common place and expected if the practice is followed. The problems that I often see in these discussions are ones of level and experience. Either it has not been felt or ones level is to low to really understand the higher aspects of the process. Explanations given by each are incomplete or as many tend to do, try to reduces it to things that they can understand couched in the words of (western science).

It doesn’t work, the Chinese model is based on its own science, with its own words and ideas used to describe events inside and out side the body. Doesn’t really matter much either way. My classmates in china would laugh at many of the things printed here and continue their practice. They would laugh because attempting to prove or disprove out side of direct experience means nothing. Either way is empty except that for those having an open mind might seek others out to find out for themselves what it is.

Even in china the higher aspects while known are either discounted or believed but maybe not seen or felt depending on who you talk with, very few people actually reach the higher levels. Those that do whom I have met are quite about it, they know what they know, the can do what they can do.

Does it make a difference; if the skill is real it gives one an added dimension to what they do. One that is not easily dealt with by those with no understanding of it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Simon: What i am aware of is that energies inside the human body can be and are measured regularly.. that someone can exercise control over these energies through conscious intention has been proven and is observable.

Or perhaps Qi is not a unified energy source but rather, as I proposed waaay back, a grab bag of knowlege of biology, bio-mechanics and physics applied intuitively and unified under a not-necessarily accurate paradigmatic explaination. What i propose is that there is a fundamental energy/force and that this "grab-bag" is differing perspectives of it.. i recall my 6th grade science teacher telling us not to confuse science for truth, that science discects truth into its component parts for student convenience.. like taking an engine apart, the parts individually are not the engine.. truth, seen from various scientific perspectives (i.e: biology, physics, bio-mechanics, etc...) is not the "whole" truth, it is only portions that we can comfortably duplicate.. both science and philosophy agree that there is more unproven than there is proven.. So, yes, your assertion of "grab-bag" is appropriate, applied "intuitively" is also appropriate and, by definition, not entirely "accurate" since words are an abstraction of that "truth".. but, similarly, to refer to that intuitive paradigm as Qi because it satisfies much of the anecdotal evidence is equally abstract..

Accupuncture works, it accomplishes things that western medicine cannot and vice versa.. so, we have complementary modalities that somehow are separated by combative egos, by people or groups of people that have investments in one or the other modality to the degree that they must, beyond reason, attempt to discredit the other.. Qi is a holistic concept that has the potential to enhance one's existence, including MA.. why struggle against it? why not reserve opinion until we have the answers.. in the mean-time no harm is apparent in honoring a cultural concept that has flourished for thousands of years, disregarding the obvious frauds.. it reminds me of my own irrational fear of "sushi", it was only 3-4 years ago that i finally tried it, now i love it..

Be well..

[SiuHung]

What I'm interested in finding out is:

Take two fighters. Equal time in training, experience, conditioning, and skill. One has internal training in addition to the afforementioned factors. Does that fighter have and advantage over the non-internally trained fighter. If so, why and how?

[SimonM]

Greetings..

Simon: What i am aware of is that energies inside the human body can be and are measured regularly..


Yes but those energies are also not Qi energy; they are kinetic energy, potential kinetic energy, chemical energy, heat, etc. What I asked is can Qi energy be quantified?



that someone can exercise control over these energies through conscious intention has been proven and is observable.


Yes and I addressed this several posts earlier. I'm not going to bother quoting myself this time because I can't recall exactly WHICH post I put it in however it was in one of my responces to you Bob.



What i propose is that there is a fundamental energy/force and that this "grab-bag"


Again the question becomes a matter of specifically quantifying Qi.



i recall my 6th grade science teacher telling us not to confuse science for truth, that science discects truth into its component parts for student convenience..


I'd say rather that Science is the process of asking for Truth, not the attainment of it. However what I am asking is simply to apply empirical techniques to the process of describing Qi. IF it exists in the form concieved by traditional discourse vis internal martial arts this should not be a problem in the slightest.



Accupuncture works, it accomplishes things that western medicine cannot and vice versa..


And I KNOW that I addressed this point earlier. I am not disputing the efficacy of Accupuncture; clinical studies have shown that it works. However that doesn't mean that it works BECAUSE it is manipulating the flow of Qi through meridians that correspond to the five elements of Chinese thought.



they must, beyond reason, attempt to discredit the other.. Qi is a holistic concept that has the potential to enhance one's existence, including MA.. why struggle against it? why not reserve opinion until we have the answers.. in the mean-time no harm is apparent in honoring a cultural concept that has flourished for thousands of years, disregarding the obvious frauds.. it reminds me of my own irrational fear of "sushi", it was only 3-4 years ago that i finally tried it, now i love it..


Ah but Bob I am not attempting actively to discredit Qi. Rather I am applying the same rules of reason to it that I would to any other problem. Almost all I have done is ask questions, I have tried to avoid making assertions. Similarly I am not struggling against the idea of Qi. My Sifu teaches Taiji and Bagua at his school and hasn't said the work Qi once since I met him so I just don't see it as necessary to understanding the applications of the arts. I think these martial arts would get more respect if they could show the skeptical, rational world WHY they work. Finally I'm not afraid of the idea of Qi. I just outgrew believing in magic the same time I outgrew Goth. As a result I am looking for a more logical explaination.

And now onto Bamboo Leaf's post:


The problems that I often see in these discussions are ones of level and experience. Either it has not been felt or ones level is to low to really understand the higher aspects of the process. Explanations given by each are incomplete or as many tend to do, try to reduces it to things that they can understand couched in the words of (western science).


Ah yes: You don't know what I'm talking about because you aren't good enough, a classic argument but a false one. If Qi IS an energy source it WILL be quantifiable. If it is than it will be able to be observed in experiment by a DISPASSIONATE THIRD PARTY.



It doesn’t work, the Chinese model is based on its own science, with its own words and ideas used to describe events inside and out side the body.


And if it is science at all than it will be able to be observed in experiment by a Dispassionate third party. Geez I feel like a broken record.



prove or disprove out side of direct experience means nothing.


To the contrary third party analysis is more dependable than anecdotal analysis.



Even in china the higher aspects while known are either discounted or believed but maybe not seen or felt depending on who you talk with, very few people actually reach the higher levels.

Those that do whom I have met are quite about it, they know what they know, the can do what they can do.


You see it's talk of "higher levels" and hidden masters that gets my hackles up because I know where else they use this sort of talk... OtO, Rosicrucians, Golden Dawn, the Masons. Now I am not one of those Illuminati conspiracy theorists, to the opposite I think these people are harmless, just a little deluded. I am not arguing with people performing any specific feat, I just disagree as to why they succeed.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(My Sifu teaches Taiji and Bagua at his school and hasn't said the work Qi once since I met him so I just don't see it as necessary to understanding the applications of the arts.)

so either he cant do it or doesn’t know it. Or he feels your level is such that these ideas would only confuse you.


(I just outgrew believing in magic the same time I outgrew Goth. As a result I am looking for a more logical explaination.)

or another possibility with such an attitude he feels it would be a waste of time so presents things as you would have them. Why not look for answers based on direct experience.

If ones experiences are such that it doesn’t exist, then it really doesn’t matter, for those where it does the idea of proving something that they know by direct experience to anybody is laughable, why would they?

Oh the money that is supposed to be there (Randi) right, its all for the money :rolleyes:

(more logical explaination)

more logical as in something that you agree with and understand, such an open mind. Whats wrong with the logic presented in the Chinese model that represents their view point for things observed and felt?


Just some observations nothing personnel :)

[SimonM]

Just some observations nothing personnel :)

I'm assuming you mean personal.

It's kind of funny considering that you started attacking my skill or my Sifu's credability. Since you don't know either of us that is not a valid method of debate. Again, stay on topic. If the discourse is too academic for you than don't try to lower it's tone by turning this into a slanging match.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I think these martial arts would get more respect if they could show the skeptical, rational world WHY they work.)

this is really the heart of the matter, with out the ideas of shen, yi and qi taiji would be like any other art probably less effective then most because it is those ideas that make it work, its what makes it a very different art so unique in Chinese CMA that it has the respect of most who really know anything about it or dealt with anyone that was competent in it.

More respect,,,, from who? :cool:

[bamboo_ leaf]

No attack, and not meant as such just some observations. Don’t need to know you or him. :) if you use or cite him as part of your experinces then why can one not comment on it?

oh yes thanks for the spelling tip :)

[SimonM]

More respect from the martial arts community.

You do realize that a lot of other martial artists mock the TCMA community. Internalists who claim that their ability comes from the mystical force but who NEVER back their claims up with the little thing we call "proof" in the real world are one of the big reasons for that.

Now me, I think that TCMA is great!

I think that some of the best martial systems ever developed come from China.

Few martial arts can match Kung Fu - when trained with intent - in a no-rules environment.

Thing is that I am sick of explaining to every two bit Rex Kwon Doer that I am not a fairy who dances around in Silk PJ's pretending to be a Jedi. It's time we got some logic around here by here I don't mean KFMO, I mean the TCMA community in general. And I'm not alone in that feeling.

[unkokusai]

Few martial arts can match Kung Fu - when trained with intent - in a no-rules environment..


How do you know?

[SimonM]

Because I have found myself in one a few times.

[Christopher M]

Take two fighters. Equal time in training, experience, conditioning, and skill. One has internal training in addition to the afforementioned factors. Does that fighter have and advantage over the non-internally trained fighter. If so, why and how?

Take two fighters. Equal time in training, experience, conditioning, and skill. One has BJJ training in addition to the afforementioned factors. Does that fighter have and advantage over the non-BJJ trained fighter. If so, why and how?

Same question, same answer. 'Internal' is just a category of martial arts. That's it. Of course training more martial arts gives you an advantage over someone training less.

None of this debate about qi has any implications whatsoever for the internal arts, who don't have any unique relationship to that idea in the first place.

[unkokusai]

Because I have found myself in one a few times.


Must have been more than a few times to be able to comment on relative values between "most" martial arts.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Yes but there are those who do and can, but chose not to. Why because they know what they know. If people find them or work with them then they to will know.

On the other side of the coin are the people who can really do it, looking at those who say they can but actually can not or maybe a better way of saying it is that their level is not high enough to express what they know or have felt.

Nothing was ever explained to me, it was shown and felt. This is my understanding. Words used to convey what was felt and shown come from the model that corresponds to the subject. Qi is qi, shen is shen and so on.

From my experinces in china and with IMA, the Chinese are very practical, and skeptical people when it comes to things like this. the difference is that they know what it is by culture and what it is not. they dont need an explantion for what it is, thats not an issue for them. it is, what it is. :)

[SimonM]

Must have been more than a few times to be able to comment on relative values between "most" martial arts.

Ok, so I'm also a bit of a style snob; I try to keep it under control. ;) :D

Bamboo Leaf: I have already responded to the points you make in that last message. Please refer to my earlier posts, they are rather long and I don't feel like typing that all out again.

[unkokusai]

From my experinces in china and with IMA, the Chinese are very practical, and skeptical people when it comes to things like this.)


All Chinese people are practical and skeptical?

[unkokusai]

Ok, so I'm also a bit of a style snob; I try to keep it under control. ;) :D


That's coo :cool:

[bamboo_ leaf]

the ones i met were. :)

Well I guess this is where we part ways. I have nothing to argue or convince anyone of. Just some posting on the net in some spare time. Only observations which seem to echo much of the past 30 or so yrs in which my own experience spans.

In Bobs words, be well :)

[unkokusai]

the ones i met where. )


"Where"? Where?

[red5angel]

Just because some of you disagree it doesn't give you a license to disrespect individuals like Tai Chi Bob. He has 30+ years experience, he deserves your respect.

I got some sad news for you meecer - time in does not make you an expert or right. I know people who have spent more time then that being wrong.



I will take the fall out of respect.

Then you're as bad as the guys promoting Qi.

[red5angel]

Here's the problem dude. People feel compelled to justify their experience because people like yourself or like red5angel feel compelled to ask for that justification.
.

Let me explain Fu Pow, why you're an idiot.

I feel compelled to ask for justification because I'm tired of seeing people get ripped off, mislead, mistreated, and sucked into cults of personality because people like you go around professing to understand things that don't exist. You suck them in with your snake oils and charlatanism and when confronted with someone who wants to know the truth, you fail mightily.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Yes but those energies are also not Qi energy; they are kinetic energy, potential kinetic energy, chemical energy, heat, etc. What I asked is can Qi energy be quantified? I disagree, those energies are aspects of Qi energy, and.. through quantifying them and others (some yet unquantifiable) we get a glimpse of Qi.. again, "my" opinion, nothing more..

Yes and I addressed this several posts earlier. Okay, and i'm restating it.. that control is an essential element of QiGong ("energy work")

Again the question becomes a matter of specifically quantifying Qi. Suppose, just for a moment, that Qi eludes current technology's ability to quantify to your satisfaction.. does that invalidate any future quantifications?

I'd say rather that Science is the process of asking for Truth, not the attainment of it. However what I am asking is simply to apply empirical techniques to the process of describing Qi. IF it exists in the form concieved by traditional discourse vis internal martial arts this should not be a problem in the slightest. There is much in this universe that escapes quantification, effects being easily observable, yet unquantifiable.. and often that "empirical process" simply doesn't apply..

And I KNOW that I addressed this point earlier. I am not disputing the efficacy of Accupuncture; clinical studies have shown that it works. However that doesn't mean that it works BECAUSE it is manipulating the flow of Qi through meridians that correspond to the five elements of Chinese thought. Again, the empirical process seems stymied, here.. not exactly certain 'How" it works, but perhaps the 5 element theory has some validity.. i'll reserve judgement for more evidence.. but, i AM happy that it works..

Finally I'm not afraid of the idea of Qi. I just outgrew believing in magic the same time I outgrew Goth. As a result I am looking for a more logical explaination. In reply, i again assert no 'magic" no "mystical", only naturally occurring events we haven't yet fully understood or measured.. again, i refer you to the unified field theory, it supports Qi like phenomena as quite natural, of course the training to achieve such is profound (which may explain lack of qualified "Masters").. out-growing Goth shouldn't predispose you to a faithless sterile existence.. i enjoy the adventure of riddles yet to be solved, and have the faith that they will..

Be well..

[SimonM]

Greetings..

I disagree, those energies are aspects of Qi energy, and.. through quantifying them and others (some yet unquantifiable) we get a glimpse of Qi.. again, "my" opinion, nothing more..
Suppose, just for a moment, that Qi eludes current technology's ability to quantify to your satisfaction.. does that invalidate any future quantifications?


But Bob the thing is that despite your claims to the contrary this is essentially a mystical perspective. I'm not going to do you the disservice of quoting dictionaries but to claim that all energies that we can observe are "aspects" of some other energy source that nobody has been able to detect except for medaeval Chinese doctors and fighters - that crosses the border into mysticism. Sorry.



Again, the empirical process seems stymied, here.. not exactly certain 'How" it works, but perhaps the 5 element theory has some validity..


I'd question that, the research I have heard suggests that the empirical process has pegged Accupuncture as a particularly non-invasive form of nerve manipulation. There is no neccesity to return to an outmoded elemental system like the Chinese five element system. In fact it would be just as accurate to return to the 4 element theory of the Greeks or to Renaissance Humours, to explain accupuncture, both are as logically consistent as the 5 element theory. That is to say that they depend upon a presupposition of several metaphysical fallacies to be logically consistent.



In reply, i again assert no 'magic" no "mystical", only naturally occurring events we haven't yet fully understood or measured.. again, i refer you to the unified field theory, it supports Qi like phenomena as quite natural, of course the training to achieve such is profound (which may explain lack of qualified "Masters").. out-growing Goth shouldn't predispose you to a faithless sterile existence.. i enjoy the adventure of riddles yet to be solved, and have the faith that they will..


I don't have a sterile existence. I am by nature a curious person. I just don't trust faith to solve the mysteries, I prefer to think things all the way through. I'm sorry Bob and I really don't mean to sound like I am attacking you personally because you have been exceptionally polite throughout these proceedings but you have not said anything to suggest that my assertion that Qi phenomena do not descend from a transcendental single source is incorrect. As I said way back at the beginning:

The simplest explaination is most likely to be the correct one.

Ask yourself this, which explaination is more simple:

1: That "internal" martial arts work on simple phyisical and biological principles.
2: That "internal" martial arts depend upon the emanations of primal unity to work.

[Merryprankster]

Well, he has my respect. He was training when some of us were still pooping our diapers. Question ... are you also the type who when a guest in another's school would beat the instructor in front of his students (if you were able to), if he was demonstrating something on you or for whatever reason you two squared off? I am not that type. I will take the fall out of respect.

There is a difference between expressing the basic human respect you grant pretty much everybody, and respecting them for something more. There is no reason to be an *******, but that is far different from respecting them in any other way.

I might not respect the instructor for their Martial Arts ability or knowledge in the example above.... I might think he's full of ****. But being a belligerent ***** is way different than basic human respect.

[Merryprankster]

chi is a very simple subject, yet it is complicated to explain. can science explain why the body gets hot when you run?

Why yes. Yes it can. When you run, you are increasing metabolic activity at the sub-cellular level. One of the by-products of the chemical activities that occur in the mitochondria and surrounding tissue is heat - exothermic reactions are quite common throughout chemistry and the body is no exception.

The more reactions that are taking place, the more total heat released. Naturally, you get hot. We have cooling mechanisms, such as sweating, to help regulate this.

Mystery solved....

[Christopher M]

Ask yourself this, which explaination is more simple:

1: That "internal" martial arts work on simple phyisical and biological principles.
2: That "internal" martial arts depend upon the emanations of primal unity to work.

3: We should use the methods and results of martial arts for cultivating martial skill rather than speculating on metaphysics or natural science, tasks for which they are poorly suited.

[red5angel]

Why yes. Yes it can. When you run, you are increasing metabolic activity at the sub-cellular level. One of the by-products of the chemical activities that occur in the mitochondria and surrounding tissue is heat - exothermic reactions are quite common throughout chemistry and the body is no exception.

The more reactions that are taking place, the more total heat released. Naturally, you get hot. We have cooling mechanisms, such as sweating, to help regulate this.

Mystery solved....

Impossible! It's qi manipulation! The ancient chinese, who by the way studied this for a long time ;) proved it is so. Their superior understanding of the human body, and the natural world shows how inferior modern science and medicine really are. You don't have to cut open bodies to understand how they work! All you need do is pray and meditate daily!

[SevenStar]

Why yes. Yes it can. When you run, you are increasing metabolic activity at the sub-cellular level. One of the by-products of the chemical activities that occur in the mitochondria and surrounding tissue is heat - exothermic reactions are quite common throughout chemistry and the body is no exception.

The more reactions that are taking place, the more total heat released. Naturally, you get hot. We have cooling mechanisms, such as sweating, to help regulate this.

Mystery solved....


0wn3d. :eek:

[spiraler]

LOL

What a dope! :rolleyes:

LOL

if you trained diligently and with enough dedication, you would not cower from battle, no matter how much bigger or stronger the other person may seem.
did i tell you i can move a thousand pounds with the flick of my finger?

[spiraler]

Why yes. Yes it can. When you run, you are increasing metabolic activity at the sub-cellular level. One of the by-products of the chemical activities that occur in the mitochondria and surrounding tissue is heat - exothermic reactions are quite common throughout chemistry and the body is no exception.

The more reactions that are taking place, the more total heat released. Naturally, you get hot. We have cooling mechanisms, such as sweating, to help regulate this.

Mystery solved....

a chi gung practitioner does not have to run.

[spiraler]

3: We should use the methods and results of martial arts for cultivating martial skill rather than speculating on metaphysics or natural science, tasks for which they are poorly suited.

wow a person who actually understands. a truly rare occurance.

[Ray Pina]

Who cares how it works really, as long as you can make it work. If you spend time with Chinese you'll quickly understand their thinking.... when they're thristy, they drink water. They don't ask for the molecular breakdown .... experience has shown them what to do.


How many God d@mn pages of text and I'm still looking for someonme (internal or external) to fight .... come on folks. Anyone down for another NYC Throwdown?

[Fu-Pow]

Impossible! It's qi manipulation! The ancient chinese, who by the way studied this for a long time ;) proved it is so. Their superior understanding of the human body, and the natural world shows how inferior modern science and medicine really are. You don't have to cut open bodies to understand how they work! All you need do is pray and meditate daily!


On many level TCM understands the function of the body and mind BETTER than Western medicine. Notice I say "function" not material substance.

Its not an either or question. Its the best of both worlds if you open your mind to it. Eventually, Eastern and Western approaches will reconcile. Right now there aren't enough people validating what works and doesn't work in Chinese medicine.....we need more research in this way.

But to dismiss so much cumulated knowledge as "prayer and meditation" reallly misses the point. :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

Who cares how it works really, as long as you can make it work. If you spend time with Chinese you'll quickly understand their thinking.... when they're thristy, they drink water. They don't ask for the molecular breakdown .... experience has shown them what to do.

Ray, we're on a forum so things need to be explained since they can't be shown. I've met a few so called internalist and have yet to see anything different from sound mechanics. Is tucking the elbow in instead of let it hang loosely at your side internal? Is a straight thrust kick internal where a crescent or tornado kick is not? Why is it no one can explain this without falling to Qi?



How many God d@mn pages of text and I'm still looking for someonme (internal or external) to fight .... come on folks. Anyone down for another NYC Throwdown?
This is not a who wants to fight thread. IF you want to get people to fight Ray, start a seperate thread and you may get more responses.

[red5angel]

On many level TCM understands the function of the body and mind BETTER than Western medicine. Notice I say "function" not material substance.

Its not an either or question. Its the best of both worlds if you open your mind to it. Eventually, Eastern and Western approaches will reconcile. Right now there aren't enough people validating what works and doesn't work in Chinese medicine.....we need more research in this way.

But to dismiss so much cumulated knowledge as "prayer and meditation" reallly misses the point. :rolleyes:


I've never said eastern medicine has nothing. I am saying that quite a bit of it has been improved upon through western medicine. I'm also saying that western medicine has, or is trying to move beyond outdated ways of looking at the world through scientific means.
Part of the problem is while Eastern medicine may have something, most westerners practicing eastern medicine do not.

[SimonM]

How many God d@mn pages of text and I'm still looking for someonme (internal or external) to fight .... come on folks. Anyone down for another NYC Throwdown?

What Ray does my invitation not count just because I PMed it to you? :confused:

[SimonM]

. Right now there aren't enough people validating what works and doesn't work in Chinese medicine.....we need more research in this way.


Or in other words dispassionate third party analysis.

[themeecer]

I got some sad news for you meecer - time in does not make you an expert or right. I know people who have spent more time then that being wrong.


I didn't say that .. I said they deserved your respect. Do you think I respect the area TKD school's regulations in a local tournament they hold here every year? No groin shots, no sweeping the supporting leg ... basically anything that would negate their fancy high kicks. I hated that and all the hubub that surrounded their schools .. all the screaming "AIIIEEEEGGGHHH!!!!! I am so and so and I am a student of so and so and with your permission I will be doing so so and so .... AIIIEEEEGGGHHH!!!!!" It was horrible. But I still show respect to their masters. heck some of them with less experience than me. I expect the same from all my students as well.



Then you're as bad as the guys promoting Qi.
So you would disgrace the teacher with you being a guest in their school? Typical. Tells me a lot about ya. And I do promote chi.

[SimonM]

I didn't say that .. I said they deserved your respect.

<SNIP>

But I still show respect to their masters. heck some of them with less experience than me. I expect the same from all my students as well.


So are you proposing that we should not participate in constructive discourse about a controversial issue within TCMA because it might hurt the feelings of people who have invested time and effort in a perspective that we see as flawed?

Because that quandry is one of the things that occasionally has lead to stagnation in martial arts.

[themeecer]

So are you proposing that we should not participate in constructive discourse about a controversial issue within TCMA because it might hurt the feelings of people who have invested time and effort in a perspective that we see as flawed?

Because that quandry is one of the things that occasionally has lead to stagnation in martial arts.
No SimonM, discourse is fine. But they way some carry it out on here is not. Not pointing fingers because I mostly only skim many of the posts, but I have seen some glaring examples.

[red5angel]

1 - Every human being I meet get's the basic level of respect awarded for being a part of the same race, or atleast a living being. My respect for them goes up or down depending on who they prove themselves to be.


2 - The kind of guy I am is one who is tired of charlatanism and cronyism in the martial arts. While doing a demo for a group of people and going with the flow, because that's what is safe for you and the instructor is one thing. Helping someone get a technique off to show how effective it is is flase advertising. I went to a demo a couple of years ago where a guy wanted to show off some technique or other. I was one of the largest guys in the crowd, and the largest to volunteer. He cracked some joke about it, then explained size and strength didnt' matter. While he didn't ask me to resist, I assumed the demo was to show that size and strength actually didn't matter, not that it didn't matter in a demo, so I resisted. What happened? Well the guy didn't get the desired effect. He managed to manhandle me into an uncomfortable position (I felt I could get out of but that's another story altogether) and didn't bother to really explain why he couldn't get me into the originally desired position or hold.

If you can't do it to me for real, or if I'm resisiting why would I want to fake it for you?

[Ray Pina]

What Ray does my invitation not count just because I PMed it to you? :confused:


Just caught that .... good on ya. And I have to say, you seem just like the older, experienced guy who makes enough sense to have me worried now ;)

You have mail.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Thanks, Simon.. and likewise you have been civil AND informative.. as long as we disagree respectfully i am a happy camper.. and we do disagree.. while i do agree with your premise "That "internal" martial arts work on simple phyisical and biological principles.", i also have sufficient personal experience and sufficient research related experience to rationally harbor the notion that those "simple phyisical and biological principles" are interconnected via a "unified field" and may, with proper discipline, be controlled beneficially to enhance all aspects of our existence.. i'm not your snake-oil salesman, or local wannabe, i've trained long and hard to understand the practical physical applications of MA, and frankly, too much was left unexplained.. too many phenomena discarded by my peers as trickery where i could find no evidence of such.. and, i am as adamant as Randi regarding "show me" ...there's too much science delving into quantum physics and unified fields to just ignore the potentials..

Yes, "simple phyisical and biological principles" account for the majority of "Qi" claims.. my assertion is that there is the evidenciary premise that "simple phyisical and biological principles" exist due to even simpler and more basic principles.. it has been my experience that "logic" frequently reduces the quest to prejudicial criteria that stifle the original intention to discover.. that does not limit logic's usefulness in determining how best to utilize new information, it only points out logic's limitation in "discovering" new information.. as A. Einstein so eloquently pointed out, "imagination is more important than knowledge"..

I am only in this game to improve myself and help others where i can.. if i offend some folks along the way, i apologize, it is not my intent.. but, i am as sincere as is possible from my perspective, and i cannot reject direct personal experience in favor of "logic" or contrived (and i mean that in the best possible way) criteria.. where the two conflict.

Be well..

[SevenStar]

bob, can you show me this evidence and research? It would be great to be able to see it. I will be in orlando in a business trip sometime in may. I have no idea what my itenerary is yet, but we should probably be able to meet up at least one evening.

Note to the instigators: This is NOT a challenge... :)

[SevenStar]

If you can't do it to me for real, or if I'm resisiting why would I want to fake it for you?


I dunno... I kinda side with themeecer on this one, since he specified that it was a demo. If I'm in class and someone is teaching a technique, I don't see a problem with falling when I'm supposed to. However, if it's sparring, or I'm told to resist, etc. Then I wouldn't cooperate. In the instance you provided, I would not have faked it.

[red5angel]

7*, if that is what the meecer is saying then I'm ok with that. however, if I walk into a school and want to see if the guy has some skill, why would I co-operate with a demonstration of his ability, other then to sto injury from occuring? If he can't use his technique(s) on me while I'm resisting what good are they?

[Fu-Pow]

7*, if that is what the meecer is saying then I'm ok with that. however, if I walk into a school and want to see if the guy has some skill, why would I co-operate with a demonstration of his ability, other then to sto injury from occuring? If he can't use his technique(s) on me while I'm resisting what good are they?

So when you started capoeira you walked in a challenged your teacher?

[red5angel]

Actually thats an interesting story, glad you opened your big trap.

Some on this forum may recall me mentioning a few times meeting up with those guys during sparring sessions, one who is now my instructor, the other a senior student. They used to show up occasionally to do some sparring and occasionally they would pull out some capoeira techniques - my instructor also teaches TKD and the senior student studies some form of kungfu I can't recall the name. Anyway, on one particular night they decided to use almost all capoeira techniques, they did ok, but more then that it was cool to watch. They showed me some basic things to use as a warm up - at the time I was studying shaolin longfist. Later when my SL school closed I went to the capoeira class for two reaons, 1 because the guy showed me he could use it in a fight and 2 because I was not longer interested in getting too serious about it, I just wanted to have fun.

[Fu-Pow]

because I was not longer interested in getting too serious about it, I just wanted to have fun.

At least you admit that you're a dilletante.

[red5angel]

you mean atleast I admit I don't take myself too seriously? Sure, I'm in it to have fun, not try to convince people I can shoot qi balls form my ass and so on.

[red5angel]

If your intention is to test his skill then it's that instructor's mistake trying to demo on you. That should be a no rules sparring and you should make it clear the moment that you walked into his school.


that's not true. If the guy has some skill, he can show me without haing to go all out. My point is that why would I co-operate with someone who is trying to show me he can do something in a high pressure situation where his opponent is resisting? There is a lot one can do with the other persons co-operation.

[Merryprankster]

chi gung practitioner does not have to run.

To raise their metabolic rate? Doesn't surprise me. People who concentrate on biofeedback can do similar things.

However, this was not the point YOU raised. You asked/stated "can science explain why we get hot when we run?"

And the answer is yes.


BTW, when I was sayin chi isn't necessary, I was saying that it's not logically necessary. That doesn't speak to its existence or non-existence, which I pretty much don't care about.

[Fu-Pow]

People who concentrate on biofeedback can do similar things.

And what is "biofeedback" exactly? I mean our thoughts shouldn't be able to effect our bodies according to you.

[unkokusai]

if you trained diligently and with enough dedication, you would not cower from battle, no matter how much bigger or stronger the other person may seem.
did i tell you i can move a thousand pounds with the flick of my finger?


"cower from battle"?!

I'm sure you spend a lot of time doing things with your fingers kid.

[unkokusai]

a chi gung practitioner does not have to run.

Counting on mercy?

[spiraler]

Actually thats an interesting story, glad you opened your big trap.

Some on this forum may recall me mentioning a few times meeting up with those guys during sparring sessions, one who is now my instructor, the other a senior student. They used to show up occasionally to do some sparring and occasionally they would pull out some capoeira techniques - my instructor also teaches TKD and the senior student studies some form of kungfu I can't recall the name. Anyway, on one particular night they decided to use almost all capoeira techniques, they did ok, but more then that it was cool to watch. They showed me some basic things to use as a warm up - at the time I was studying shaolin longfist. Later when my SL school closed I went to the capoeira class for two reaons, 1 because the guy showed me he could use it in a fight and 2 because I was not longer interested in getting too serious about it, I just wanted to have fun.

what a load of crap. HA! do you take shaolin-do to?

[spiraler]

"cower from battle"?!

I'm sure you spend a lot of time doing things with your fingers kid.

your ignorance amazes me old ****. are you sure you are a man?

[spiraler]

[QUOTE=unkokusai]Counting on mercy?[/QUO


you will be.

[unkokusai]

your ignorance amazes me old ****. are you sure you are a man?


Yeah pretty sure, chi master. :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

[QUOTE=unkokusai]Counting on mercy?[/QUO


you will be.



Not from the likes of you, miss.

[Becca]

I can shoot qi balls form my ass and so on.

iS that what that was... Smelled bad either way... :eek: ;) :D

[FuXnDajenariht]

does anyone actually know anything about the history/origin of qi theory. how did it come to be. what was it influenced by.... how did they come to their conclusions. etc... i know its been invalidated already, and i wanna add that im neutral about the whole thing but how much do the debunkers actually know about the subject? whence, how, whither.....

"prana in India, ankh in Ancient Egypt, pneuma and archeus from Greece, kum nye in Tibet and, in North America, orenda from native nations." .....it isn't just a chinese thing


the simplest explaination is usually correct right? so is it a coincidence that the same culture that created, (hundreds of years ago) such a unique, complex, effective style of martial arts based on biological principles, advanced body mechanics and physics with no access to modern science's knowledge about sports science or the scientific method and the like, also used the qi theory? its been stated that chi gung is inseparably integrated into bagua, taichi and that without it they are ineffective.

how do ya reconcile practicing and trusting in part of their knowledge if you disregard the other half? if the basic principles are proven to be bullshat then the entire system should collapse right? even in modern science. theories aren't proven to be fact but there is some truth to them that allows certain advances in knowlegde or technology.... the whole picture is far from known tho. and it probably wont be...

this convo made me think about a couple of the things ive been reading about as of late....

what do you all think about 'some' of the ideas in modern physics paralleling that of taoism and the vedanta? i know some of you degree holders know about that stuff more so than me so enlightenment is much appreciated. anyone here ever read tao of physics? is it a good read or bs?

just trying to steer the convo past personal insults.

[FuXnDajenariht]

lol an article from the always ****ed off guys at rotten.com "debunking" quantum physics.. hehe

http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/quantum-physics/

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Sevenstar: Please PM me and i will be honored to meet with you.. you are invited to be a guest at our school, and.. thanks for considering this a worthy effort..

Be well..

[Becca]

lol an article from the always ****ed off guys at rotten.com "debunking" quantum physics.. hehe

http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/quantum-physics/
I can understand why someone may not understand what all the theories and math behind quantum physics means. But to try to write an artical about something you understand and try to go indepth???? :confused:

I think he actually made it harder to understand... :rolleyes:

Also, many of Newton's laws have been found to be incomplete.

[Happeh]

The ancient chinese, who by the way studied this for a long time ;) proved it is so. Their superior understanding of the human body, and the natural world shows how inferior modern science and medicine really are. You don't have to cut open bodies to understand how they work! All you need do is pray and meditate daily!

You don't have to cut open bodies to see how they work. That is Frankenstein work by the forces of evil.

If you do kung fu, you can find out much more about the body than anyone with a steak knife ever will.


Modern medicine has it's uses. If you need a blood test, you need modern medicine. For major trauma, like car accident or gun shot, you need modern medicine. Maybe.

Have you ever considered that it might be better to die? Modern medicine is about saving lifes, because of the cost. Or is that "in spite of the costs". If you notice, all the wonders of modern medicine make people very rich. Of course the powers that be will sing the wonders of modern medicine as long as operations cost 10's of thousands of dollars.

Maybe it would be better for the people to die.

Those soldiers in Iraq? They come back with no arms or no legs or brain damage. The only reason they lived is because of modern medicine. Now they have 40 or 50 years of a wheel chair, or people picking things up for them, or a mental home because their brain got blown up. Is modern medicine really so good if that is what it does? Keep alive people who would be better off dead?

I saw the other day some doctors kept alive some baby that weighed like 3 ounces or something crazy like that. It cost like $400,000. Jezuz. The parents could have gone home that night and made another baby that was healthy. Babies take about 5 minutes to create. You think that 3 ounce baby is gonna be OK? It is gonna have health complications for the rest of it's life.

[red5angel]

what a load of crap. HA! do you take shaolin-do to?


do you have some sort of basis for this moronic statement or are you just trying to join the ranks of Fu Pow and his ilk? Better yet, is this another of Fu Pow's personalities, we know he's had a few.

[Happeh]

Ah yes: You don't know what I'm talking about because you aren't good enough, a classic argument but a false one. If Qi IS an energy source it WILL be quantifiable. If it is than it will be able to be observed in experiment by a DISPASSIONATE THIRD PARTY.

And if it is science at all than it will be able to be observed in experiment by a Dispassionate third party. Geez I feel like a broken record.

To the contrary third party analysis is more dependable than anecdotal analysis.

You see it's talk of "higher levels" and hidden masters that gets my hackles up because I know where else they use this sort of talk... OtO, Rosicrucians, Golden Dawn, the Masons. Now I am not one of those Illuminati conspiracy theorists, to the opposite I think these people are harmless, just a little deluded. I am not arguing with people performing any specific feat, I just disagree as to why they succeed.

Let's break this up. No. scientific experiment will not always be better than anecdotal analysis. You won't accept this but by insisting on explanations the way you do, you prevent yourself from learning what you want to.

Explanations are usually right brain stuff. Mystical stuff is left brain. Or vice versa. I forget. Anyways. The more you want an explanation, the stronger that side of the brain gets and the weaker the mystical side of the brain is. You need the mystical side of the brain to interpret mystical phenomenon. The factual side of the brain, by it's very nature, cannot understand mystical stuff.

How about an example that we all know about. Women. Who understands women? They seem crazy right? That is because woman are mystical brained and men are explanation brained by design. Men cannot understand woman and we all agree that is true. The exact same reason is why you are having trouble with qi etc. Imagine "qi" is a woman you are talking to and she said something odd. To you press her for an explanation or do you give up? Because you know from past experience that no matter what the woman says, you are probably not going to understand it.

The hidden masters stuff? I think it is because you are arrogant. I am not saying that in a mean spirited way. You think you are a scientific modern superior man who will not be fooled by ignorant tribal superstitious people. You cannot nor will you accept the idea that someone could know something you do not.

I don't know what to say really because I understand you sentiments exactly. All I can do is offer the observation that you are preventing yourself from seeing the world as it truly is by your insistence that you receive that knowledge in the way that you want it.

[Happeh]

[QUOTE=red5angel

If you can't do it to me for real, or if I'm resisiting why would I want to fake it for you?[/QUOTE]

Because a polite person would not publicly embarrass another in front of a crowd?

[red5angel]

iS that what that was... Smelled bad either way... :eek: ;) :D


BWAHAHAHHAAA, this reminds me of a funny but true story. when I started wingchun in St. Paul years ago, this old guy used to attend the class. By old I'd say he was in his 50's. Anyway, we were working out one day and doing some static type exercises, I can't remember exactly what it was but this old guy let's one rip right and we're all snickering like a bunch of 13 yr olds when he says something like "Sorry, my Qi is escaping."!

[red5angel]

I saw the other day some doctors kept alive some baby that weighed like 3 ounces or something crazy like that. It cost like $400,000. Jezuz. The parents could have gone home that night and made another baby that was healthy. Babies take about 5 minutes to create. You think that 3 ounce baby is gonna be OK? It is gonna have health complications for the rest of it's life.


So what price is your life worth to you Happeh?



Because a polite person would not publicly embarrass another in front of a crowd?

A polite person wouldn't mislead the people he is trying to convince he can give real skill too.

[SevenStar]

does anyone actually know anything about the history/origin of qi theory. how did it come to be. what was it influenced by.... how did they come to their conclusions. etc... i know its been invalidated already, and i wanna add that im neutral about the whole thing but how much do the debunkers actually know about the subject? whence, how, whither.....

"prana in India, ankh in Ancient Egypt, pneuma and archeus from Greece, kum nye in Tibet and, in North America, orenda from native nations." .....it isn't just a chinese thing


the simplest explaination is usually correct right? so is it a coincidence that the same culture that created, (hundreds of years ago) such a unique, complex, effective style of martial arts based on biological principles, advanced body mechanics and physics with no access to modern science's knowledge about sports science or the scientific method and the like, also used the qi theory? its been stated that chi gung is inseparably integrated into bagua, taichi and that without it they are ineffective.

how do ya reconcile practicing and trusting in part of their knowledge if you disregard the other half? if the basic principles are proven to be bullshat then the entire system should collapse right? even in modern science. theories aren't proven to be fact but there is some truth to them that allows certain advances in knowlegde or technology.... the whole picture is far from known tho. and it probably wont be...


I've got an issue of inside karate from like 1997 that talks about a style called vadha - a himalayan art. they refer to qi as "punap". I've never researched it, so I dunno how old the style is.

Some people will argue however, that qi is really nothing more than proper body mechanics. Using that theory, then what you stated above about taiji and bagua makes more sense.

[FuXnDajenariht]

yes but most people will agree that qi 'gong' is not about proper body mechanics at all. seeing as its not a style of fighting.

[spiraler]

of course proper body mechanics is involved in the use of chi in martial arts, but thats not the only factor. until one develops the chi of the dantien,(stomach area)when your chi gets stronger in your dantien you will be able to feel and observe it flowing through your body, then you can make progress in internal martial arts,but without being able to feel your chi or not being able to sense the inner landscape of your body you wont be able to use or cultivate chi anymore than the average person. although once you reach this level its good to have an experienced teacher in this area. you can develop this mind body connection through stance training, p.s. i dont care if you dont believe me.

[spiraler]

do you have some sort of basis for this moronic statement or are you just trying to join the ranks of Fu Pow and his ilk? Better yet, is this another of Fu Pow's personalities, we know he's had a few.


i just gotta know.......

whats up with the gay ass avatar. really... it is kinda gay.

[Fu-Pow]

Some people will argue however, that qi is really nothing more than proper body mechanics. Using that theory, then what you stated above about taiji and bagua makes more sense.

And some people would argue that you only have 1/2 the picture if you think it is only about body mechanics. Body mechanics is only the first level ie the San He (Sam Hap), ie 3 harmonies. There are higher levels to attain and in order to do that you have to bring in the concept of Qi.

[ewallace]

i just gotta know.......whats up with the gay ass avatar. really... it is kinda gay.
If a picture of a hot chick is gay then I am flaming like a whopper-gay.

[red5angel]

i just gotta know.......

whats up with the gay ass avatar. really... it is kinda gay.

ah tiachibob....wasn't aware you were the type to have an alternate personality, I should have guessed.


Ewallace, Taichibob/spiraler has already pointed out that hot chicks scare him. I can't remember if it's on this thread or another bu apparently hot chicks scare him enough to bring it up twice with two different personalities.

[spiraler]

um...yeah i know your gay.

[spiraler]

ah tiachibob....wasn't aware you were the type to have an alternate personality, I should have guessed.


Ewallace, Taichibob/spiraler has already pointed out that hot chicks scare him. I can't remember if it's on this thread or another bu apparently hot chicks scare him enough to bring it up twice with two different personalities.


hot chick? where? oh.... you mean that 12 year old girl on your avatar?

[red5angel]

hot chick? where? oh.... you mean that 12 year old girl on your avatar?


I should let you continue to put your big ass foot in your big ass mouth but seeing as you alternate ego you already got your head there:

http://www.shouyuliang.com/instructors/helen_liang.shtml



figure it out for yourself *******.

[unkokusai]

p.s. i dont care if you dont believe me.


You seem to (need to) say that alot. :cool: :rolleyes:

[spiraler]

I should let you continue to put your big ass foot in your big ass mouth but seeing as you alternate ego you already got your head there:

http://www.shouyuliang.com/instructors/helen_liang.shtml



figure it out for yourself *******.


okay, she gets props. but youre still gay, regardless.HAHAHAHAH!

[spiraler]

You seem to (need to) say that alot. :cool: :rolleyes:


yes unfortunately i do.fool.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

red5angel...

Ewallace, Taichibob/spiraler has already pointed out that hot chicks scare him. I can't remember if it's on this thread or another bu apparently hot chicks scare him enough to bring it up twice with two different personalities. Red, Red, Red.. you pitiful dolt, i have never posted in this forum with any handle other than TaiChiBob. What is "spooky" as i stated and state again, is the mentallity of someone that would use that "deer-in-the-headlights" avatar.. then babble about being such a fan.. that is stalker mentallity.. as for "hot chicks", that avatar is just too spooky to look at day after day.. Ms. Liang may be pleasing to the eye, but that pic does her no favors, and.. if it were me, i would consider legal action to have it removed.. i mean, there are liability issues in letting the mentally handicapped post your picture on public forums..

Be well, red5...

[red5angel]

Greetings..

red5angel...
Red, Red, Red.. you pitiful dolt, i have never posted in this forum with any handle other than TaiChiBob. What is "spooky" as i stated and state again, is the mentallity of someone that would use that "deer-in-the-headlights" avatar.. then babble about being such a fan.. that is stalker mentallity.. as for "hot chicks", that avatar is just too spooky to look at day after day.. Ms. Liang may be pleasing to the eye, but that pic does her no favors, and.. if it were me, i would consider legal action to have it removed.. i mean, there are liability issues in letting the mentally handicapped post your picture on public forums..

Be well, red5...

you crack me up spiraler, really. but you shoudl be ashamed of yourself. As an instructor you shouldnt' be engaging on internet flame wars. For a guy who puts on the pretense - and I use that word strongly - of being some sort of zen warrior, trolling an internet forum is demeaning and unbecoming.

I happen to think that's not a bad pic of Helen Liang, the full picture is better but she's very photogenic and a looker too. If you can't handle those feminine eyes staring at you, bewbies give you the willies, then you just gotta stop looking at it is all. I know, a woman is scary spiraler, er I mean taichibob but trust me there's nothing to worry about, unless your just lookig to smoke the pee pipe?

[Fu-Pow]

I happen to think that's not a bad pic of Helen Liang, the full picture is better but she's very photogenic and a looker too. If you can't handle those feminine eyes staring at you, bewbies give you the willies, then you just gotta stop looking at it is all. I know, a woman is scary spiraler, er I mean taichibob but trust me there's nothing to worry about, unless your just lookig to smoke the pee pipe?

I wonder if red5's wife knows about his obsession with Helen Liang or about his obsession with harassing members of this forum (when he should be working hard bringing home the bacon). Maybe I'll shoot her an email....... ;)

[red5angel]

I wonder if red5's wife knows about his obsession with Helen Liang or about his obsession with harassing members of this forum. Maybe I'll shoot her an email....... ;)


oooh scaryyyyyyyyyyy :rolleyes: Yet another one who fears the vagina......

[Fu-Pow]

oooh scaryyyyyyyyyyy :rolleyes: Yet another one who fears the vagina......

You seem to think that I'm bluffing.....


Here is a little about Se fala's capoeira life:
I'm OBSESSED! I just started barely a month ago (today is 7/12/04) and I think I practice everyday! I absolutely love it and wish to continue for as long as I am able. Fortunately my husband Jason is playing as well and we can support each other (and kick each other a bit - good for the marriage, you know). I got a nickname (Feburary 2005) now! I am known for talking/yelling/scolding/cursing/freaking to myself while in class and especially in the roda...thus the name.

[red5angel]

you seem to think my wife isn't aware of my avatar.....or that she cares ;)

[Fu-Pow]

you seem to think my wife isn't aware of my avatar.....or that she cares ;)

I guess we'll find out.

[red5angel]

I tell you what fu pow, I'll even make it easier for ya. I'll be going to class tonight while my wife wil be staying home with an injury. She uses this machine to do her ebay and cruise the internet, so I will ask her to log in under my name so you can explain it to her then ok? I'd say she will probably log in sometime between 7-8:30 pm central time or so, and since I'll be at clas you can tell her whatever you like. I'm sure she will be almost as amused as I at your antics.

[Reggie1]

I guess we'll find out.

No offfense meant, Fu-Pow, but isn't that kind of like being a tattletale?

[red5angel]

No offfense meant, Fu-Pow, but isn't that kind of like being a tattletale?


Reggie, if my wife didn't already know - she's secure in our relationship enough to know my avatar is humorous and inconsequential, that it doesn't matter. Of course I'm not sure how I feel about Fu Pow harrassing my family members outside of this forum but it's typical since he's essentially gutless worm.

Never the less, I'm sure she will be more then happy to log onto the KFM and set him straight for anyone who's gonna be around later ;)

[Fu-Pow]

I tell you what fu pow, I'll even make it easier for ya. I'll be going to class tonight while my wife wil be staying home with an injury. She uses this machine to do her ebay and cruise the internet, so I will ask her to log in under my name so you can explain it to her then ok? I'd say she will probably log in sometime between 7-8:30 pm central time or so, and since I'll be at clas you can tell her whatever you like. I'm sure she will be almost as amused as I at your antics.


How 'bout I do exactly what I said I was going to do.

[red5angel]

:rolleyes:

I told you, I'd arrange for you and her to discuss it publicly. Like I said, I'm not sure how I feel about you harrassing my family members because you've been shot down so many times on this forum. It's one thing to flame me but to email my family is just sort of weird? Anyone else think this is weird?

[Reggie1]

Yeah, Fu-Pow, it is kind of weird.

And don't forget that it's kind of sissy. Like I said, the whole 'tattletale' thing. I'm sure you haven't run out of good Red5 bashing jokes, but getting the wife involved is kind of like a cop out.

[PangQuan]

Man you guys are fun. I sit here at work doing nothing but laughing at this, I have to say thanks. Its almost like an episode of the Stooges. BONK! The office I work at is seriously slow, I dont know what I would do if it were not for KFM forum. I guess I could do more work, but I get paid by an hourly rate...I only work to pay for kung fu anyhow.

What would be the icing on the cake is if we were all to find out that Fu-Pow and red5angel were the same person !!!!!! DUM DUM DUMMM....

[red5angel]

Yeah, Fu-Pow, it is kind of weird.

And don't forget that it's kind of sissy. Like I said, the whole 'tattletale' thing. I'm sure you haven't run out of good Red5 bashing jokes, but getting the wife involved is kind of like a cop out.


It's because he's been slam dunked too many times to count on this forum so he has to go elsewhere to drag people in who dont' realize completely how retarded he is ;)


What would be the icing on the cake is if we were all to find out that Fu-Pow and red5angel were the same person !!!!!! DUM DUM DUMMM....


If only I could act so stupid! Howveer, typicaly Fu Pows other personalities quickly reveal who you're talking about. Eventually they get angry and threaten to leave forever, and have so far failed to do so.

[SevenStar]

Its almost like an episode of the Stooges. BONK!

ditto that.

[unkokusai]

yes unfortunately i do.fool.


And why do you suppose that is?


Wait, don't tell me... :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

well fu pow, apparently my wife didn't deem you worthy of her time. I told her if she wanted to she could log on as me to have a chat with you but she had better things to do, sorry man.

[red5angel]

Sorry about that, Fu-Pow. But Tuesdays are the only time I can fit Red5's wife into my schedule. Last night was flavored-oil night. MMMMMM. Orange Mango.


I never have a problem "fitting in" your wife......

[MasterKiller]

I never have a problem "fitting in" your wife......
That's because you have a midget Pee-Pee.

[red5angel]

That's because you have a midget Pee-Pee.

when compared to your giant hoohoo, yes......

[red5angel]

funny we haven't heard anything from Fu Pow today, must be busy getting kicked out of another university. :cool:

[Gangsterfist]

From what I have read/heard/been told Yang Taiji was actually adapted from military training. So its core is a fighting art, and its internal, and a combat system. My sifu learned yang taiji when he was growing up in macau.

Here go some links on info about it.

http://www.dongtaichi.com/fighters/throwing.html

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=432

http://www.shaolininstitute.com/tai_chi_history.htm

[red5angel]

I tried to keep it on topic by getting one freakin person, anyone who promotes internal arts, to explain exactly what they are, and how they differ. Pangquan bothered to explain atleast part of his belief in it, otherwise, nothing.