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Demi @ CSPT
03-25-2005, 12:37 PM
One time or even annual training is of little benefit if there is no routine development of the material taught. Conversely, if someone receives one time training but spends hours weekly developing that material you could have tremendous growth. The focus should be on the mid to long term training methods that support and develop the tactics, not only the tactics themselves. I have also seen numerous training programs that do not approach the subject of violence in a violent way. The training is sometimes very watered down as to insure that there will be no injuries during the training. Injuries should not be the normal outcome of regular training but should be an accepted and managed risk. There must be realistic, high probability tactics and progressive resistance. In certain cases I’ve seen training met with disdain and even arrogance.

Some professionals do not like to train athletically because it puts them in a vulnerable position within the power structure. They might not be able to stop a real ground attack and that might not look good. It might even make them feel bad. The point is that you must know where you are weak and develop that area. Even when they do drop the ego and participate it’s a one time or once a year thing. That is not going to make it. There must be ongoing development. There are other professionals who actually pay for training out of their own pocket. They do not feel that the watered down, far to few training sessions they get on the job will be enough. Some are even fanatical about it. Others do not have a realistic idea of what real combat is like. They think the training they get is fine. The problem is that they have no reference point. Even though they are in law enforcement they have never trained at a high level, have never had a real fight or have never been attacked by someone who wanted to do them serious harm. Another important reality is that many in law enforcement are far to secure (unrealistically so) in the fact that they carry weapons. Again, the weapons are operator dependent and training and ongoing development is crucial. There is no real difference in the athletics for training with weapons and unarmed tactics. There must be a focus on safety, handling, marksmanship, tactics and fighting. There must also be progressive resistance. When I speak of those in law enforcement I speak in broad generalities about standards, polices and practices. There are numerous individuals and departments who stand out in a good way. It just seems that the lowest common denominator is also the most prevalent. This is not to condem but to provoke thought. I am very sympathetic to the realities of working in law enforcement but many in law enforcement are not sympathetic to the realities of good ongoing training. In some instances money is a big problem but I am referring to the individual and his desire to develop his combat applications.

The Mixed Martial Arts community is a great example of training for a real fight. The level of understanding of how to integrate striking, clinch and ground has progressed to an elite level over the past decade and a half. The advent of ground fighting forced the strikers to get better. The skill of the strikers forced to the clinch to develop. Now the playing field has been leveled. Everyone strikes, clinches and grapples. It is also trained in a realistic manner with good tactics and progressive resistance. Development of the delivery system is the normal result of training MMA. The focus on athletics is so important to the reality of fighting. But, is it a fight we should be training for? Where MMA falls short is on the application of it’s methodologies to an assault scenario. This is where one participant attacks another who does not know an assault is about to happen or where multiple opponents are involved. If your reference point is one guy coming at you from across the ring you could be in for an unpleasant surprise. Likewise, if you train for an altercation that always starts with someone postured in front of you it’s hard to call this self defense.Pre fight threat indicators, deceptive dialog, de-escalation and threat recognition must be included to develop the MMA delivery system to its highest potential. Again, development is needed to bring the training in line with expected outcomes. There are other factors that can hinder development outside of bad tactics, bad training methods and lack of training frequency. Age, disability, injury and ego are development killers. The first three are not by choice. The last is.

The point here is that in order to be at an optimal level to respond to violence you must be trained and developed. Far too many individuals have told me about their one time training in such and such that happened X number of years ago or how they trained with so and so over the years. It is painfully obvious to see who has spent time developing the methodologies they've been taught. Development can happen with a couple of buddies in the garage, gym, on the gun range or in a structured class setting. No matter what your approach is there is almost always room for development as long as you are willing to recognize it.

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Vash
03-25-2005, 06:36 PM
Advertising = Bad. :mad:

As an aside, a tasteful link in your signature = cool.

Good article, by the by.

spiraler
03-25-2005, 07:14 PM
thats why gangstrs can whoop ass most of the time, they live in day to day situations of violence. dont get me wrong though theyre nothing compared to a trained fighter. and yes, mma is a good place to test your skills, if you have any, otherwise it can also build basic simple yet effective for combat skills such as boxing, wrestling/grappling/submission, sometimes kickboxing or muay thai.yet mma lacks philosophy and is deemed towards a more primal brutal audience, different strokes for different folks, me i started out a sweaty pretty much mma guy, yet, if you study a internal grappling\throwing/submission art such as judo, your view on fighting may be changed.

SevenStar
03-31-2005, 06:21 PM
thats why gangstrs can whoop ass most of the time, they live in day to day situations of violence. dont get me wrong though theyre nothing compared to a trained fighter. and yes, mma is a good place to test your skills, if you have any, otherwise it can also build basic simple yet effective for combat skills such as boxing, wrestling/grappling/submission, sometimes kickboxing or muay thai.yet mma lacks philosophy and is deemed towards a more primal brutal audience, different strokes for different folks, me i started out a sweaty pretty much mma guy, yet, if you study a internal grappling\throwing/submission art such as judo, your view on fighting may be changed.

I train judo... it's very external - very rough. they may share some internal principles, but in practice, it's very external.

SevenStar
03-31-2005, 06:25 PM
The Mixed Martial Arts community is a great example of training for a real fight. The level of understanding of how to integrate striking, clinch and ground has progressed to an elite level over the past decade and a half. The advent of ground fighting forced the strikers to get better. The skill of the strikers forced to the clinch to develop. Now the playing field has been leveled. Everyone strikes, clinches and grapples. It is also trained in a realistic manner with good tactics and progressive resistance. Development of the delivery system is the normal result of training MMA. The focus on athletics is so important to the reality of fighting. But, is it a fight we should be training for? Where MMA falls short is on the application of it’s methodologies to an assault scenario. This is where one participant attacks another who does not know an assault is about to happen or where multiple opponents are involved. If your reference point is one guy coming at you from across the ring you could be in for an unpleasant surprise. Likewise, if you train for an altercation that always starts with someone postured in front of you it’s hard to call this self defense.Pre fight threat indicators, deceptive dialog, de-escalation and threat recognition must be included to develop the MMA delivery system to its highest potential. Again, development is needed to bring the training in line with expected outcomes.

I think the flaw there is assuming that the MMA guy is INTENDING to train for an assault scenario. 9 times out of 10, we are not. We compete, and that's what we train for. There IS a self defense side to bjj, muay thai, etc. and in some instances, that is taught - it depends on the school. the self defense training is indeed scenario based.

Vash
04-01-2005, 08:14 AM
I think the flaw there is assuming that the MMA guy is INTENDING to train for an assault scenario. 9 times out of 10, we are not. We compete, and that's what we train for. There IS a self defense side to bjj, muay thai, etc. and in some instances, that is taught - it depends on the school. the self defense training is indeed scenario based.

Indeed. Though I am by no means a student of BJJ, I've had the opportunity to work out with several BJJ players - one who competes in BJJ, kickboxing, and MMA events [purple belt after training in Brazil for a while]. Whilst doing some instruction at our school, he pointed out a few guard passes and several other techniques which, in a BJJ tourney are great, but in MMA or true-life altercations would leave one exposed to strikes, etc.

spiraler
04-01-2005, 02:04 PM
I train judo... it's very external - very rough. they may share some internal principles, but in practice, it's very external.


it can be, but have you seen a black belt whoop a white belt? pure ease, very internal.

SevenStar
04-01-2005, 04:26 PM
naturally, because the difference in the skill levels is so great. Brings up an interesting question though - is internal only the ideal?

spiraler
04-01-2005, 04:34 PM
i guess you could say internal is ideal that a judoist trains for. or internal=one who can whoop you without trying. considering the fact that judo employs a circular attack defense strategy, as your skills become more refined, a beginner would appear "external" while a master would be more "internal"

SevenStar
04-04-2005, 10:35 AM
woudl it apply for internal cma styles as well? I've heard internalists say that they can use fa-jing, but not at will. I've heard others say they can use it, but can't seem to do it against a resisting opponent. These people are not masters by any means - ideally, if the situation perfectly presents itself, they can apply this energy. otherwise, they cannot. Is this just a common theme among the lesser skilled?

YuanZhideDiZhen
04-08-2005, 01:17 AM
naturally, because the difference in the skill levels is so great. Brings up an interesting question though - is internal only the ideal?


last week sixteen pages of this topic were hammered out in less than 12 hours.

if you look at the history of shaolin style there is a definate progression from hard style to soft style. the more modern wushu and shaolin practices are hard-soft in the sense that they use hard application of soft technique. but even that is changing and internal arts are becoming more visible in Shaolin arts. Shaolin now has two styles of their own tai chi plus a bagua-tai chi hybrid called Great Spirit that looks like a soft choy li fut.

perhaps the difference is that as instructors managed to live longer they developed a need for combating the muscle tightening that occurs with age and poor helath. the soft styles are practiced by all old players. perhaps the younger students had the revelation that they should just start off life in diapers and stay comfortable in them because then they won't have to sacrifice what dignity remains to gird themselves up for incontinence. martial arts is life. it follows life. from the cradle to the grave certain things are probable while other things are possible.

in my style of clf we might have ten years of peak performance before the practice itself takes its toll. part of that comes from havoing to unlearn certain muscle usages to relearn appropriate ones. once good foundation is attained by soft technique it is easier to maintain with soft technique than a hard foundation with any technique -over time.

I started with tai chi and as my understanding of clf technique has improved i find myself practicing soft clf -and rewriting the forms- more than what i was taught by my teachers (who are now doing predominantly soft versions of thier styles just to keep moving).

seems y'all think of 'internal' as a platonic form based on what i see in your discourse above....

hope that helps.

YuanZhideDiZhen
04-08-2005, 01:47 AM
would it apply for internal cma styles as well? I've heard internalists say that they can use fa-jing, but not at will. I've heard others say they can use it, but can't seem to do it against a resisting opponent. These people are not masters by any means - ideally, if the situation perfectly presents itself, they can apply this energy. otherwise, they cannot. Is this just a common theme among the lesser skilled?

i have seen people harness fa ching. i have also seen people harness citori. these are basically self-control exercises with mind over matter and a hieghtened awareness of a spacial relationship and time. mainly, it's control of adrenalin production, storage and release. i had a brother train for years to master it but he could only make it happen in the first round about fifty percent of the time.

reguarding people not being able to do it against a resisting opponent: if the player has no pennetration in thier movements no amount of speed is going to help them in an encounter unless its methamphetamine. you don't even have to be musckle-strong to attain pennetration or have power- just well developed technique. and that's why your amatuers (intermediately advanced technicians) have difficulty: they haven't learned what they should've.

it must've been a good 18 months before i could hit the way my teacher wanted me to. but i did it by not being satisfied with why i didn't lay him out with the first punch. by the time my immediate older brother left he still couldn't hit any harder than when he arrived: he merely learned the forms -but he's allowed to fight at ufc... :rolleyes: