Taiji Quan origin stories

[Brad]

Yang Lu Chan learned from Chen Chang Xin, who was considered infamous by the Chens because he learned a martial art (Wudan Neijia Quan) from a outsider (probably Jiang Fa). What YLC really learned was a mix of Chen's "Pao Chui" and Wudan Neijia Quan. The styles of the two students of Chen Chang Xin: Chan Gen Yun (Old Chen Taijiquan) and Yang Lu Chan (Old Yang Style) were very smilar! The Chen style which was practiced in the Chen village and is today rapresented by Chen Fake lineage has little to do with what learned YLC in Chen village.

This is a quote from a guy on emptyflower... anyway, I've heard this story somewhere before, but does anyone know the source of this idea? I'd ask on ef but I've been having some login problems...

[Fu-Pow]

I've heard that Chen style is actually a mix of Pao Chui and some internal concepts that come from an older forgotten internal style that eventually morphed into Taijiquan. Some of the training methods and explosive movements in the Chen form do not strictly adhere to taiji principles as defined in the classics. Of course saying that Chen style is not pure taiji will make Chen stylists very angry.


Except Chen stylists do say that Chen is a combination of internal and external. Perhaps the internal component has its origins in this "mystery" style and Pao Chui is the source of the "external."

It seems that the internal component is harder to learn and so that may be why the emphasis in training is on that instead of the Pao Chui component.

Just speculation.

[SPJ]

General Chen Wang Ting was Ming's general. After Qing took over, he was retired.

There were several theories that how Chen Tai Ji came about.

Originally, there were 5 routines, and Pao Zui 2 routines and 108 Chang Quan or continuous boxing.

The theory of Tai Ji Quan was espoused initially by Zhang San Feng. There are 8 gates and 5 steps etc.

Chen Tai Ji was considered a long boxing or bigger movements and so are many Northern boxings.

Chen Chang Xing summarized the 5 routines into old frame first routine or Lao Jia Yi Lu. This is the form where all modern styles originated from.

Even in the era of Wushu, many people still regard Lao Jia Yi Lu as the venerable form or subject of study. All the good practitioners of all styles of Tai Ji will know this form well.

As far as the story about where Yang Lu Chan tai Ji or Yang Tai Ji came about. May be Yang style people will tell you more.

Some said since Yang is an outsider. He had to watch secretly and tried to pick up as much as he could. ---

:confused:

[FuXnDajenariht]

Some said since Yang is an outsider. He had to watch secretly and tried to pick up as much as he could. ---

:confused:

only in the movies...

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

anyone here ever believe that taiji really began with the early emporor Fu Xi who founded the yin-yang, bagua, and book of changes? 2800 b.c.

[FuXnDajenariht]

i think tai chi had a slow evolution rather than some over night development struck by inspiration thing...

[SPJ]

Yes. The theory of Tai Ji Quan was at first espoused by Zhang San Feng.

Yes. The idea of Tai Ji was described from Zhou Yi or the book of Change dating 2500 to 3000 years ago.

The ideas of Tai Ji in boxing methods are in many styles.

Chen family studied and practiced MA since Chen Pu the first recorded ancestor in the family. That would date back to 1000 years ago.

General Chen Wang Ting was in the Ming's army. He studied many styles that were used in the military. The legends said that he also studied some styles from the civilian circles.

He has several boxing routines or forms and Tai Chi or Tai Ji was only one of the boxing sets. There were not a lot of moves in the set he called Tai Ji Quan.

Now the question came down to Chen Chang Xing and Lao Jia. Did Chen Chang Xing summarize all Chen family boxing methods into one form or expanded the few moves in the Tai Ji Quan originally created or adopted by Chen Wang Ting?

These are what I heard. Do not ask me to provide a written record or book.

What it is known is that the boxing methods of Tai Ji Quan were also recorded in Qi Ji Kuang's "the new record of MA effects". Ji Qiao Xin Shu 记效新書.

There are also several boxing sets using the methods espoused in QJK books.

Then they are also entitled to the name of Tai Ji Quan.

For now, most people ascribe the idea of Chen Tai Ji = Tai Ji Quan only.

:confused:

[Vajramusti]

Suggest reading Doug Wile's well researched book on The Lost Tai Chi Classics.
While there might have been a historic Zhang San Feng- he is not a demonstrable founder of Taichi. Chen Wanting was and he drew from existing styles to create a new synthesis.
Original Yang style emerged from Chen-but in its popularization gradually the explosive qualities of Chen began to evaporate- as folks became primarily interested in the health aspects.
Sun style restored the explosiveness....missing in most Yang.
Nothing wrong with Chen Fake- it is mainline Chen though there are many versions now. Chen Fake was one of the greats.
See- Sim and Galloways "Chen Style Taiji" which gives some idea of the variations.

Because Yang became popularized folks began to identify it as old taichi... whole Chen remained considerably but not totally located in Chen village. Mao's policies
emasculated real combative wu shu and then the cultural revolution did damage to
Chen and they went underground practicing in private. Its after the end of the cultural revolution that the world outside of PRC began to be exposed to real Chen...
as Feng Zhi Quan and Chen Xiao Wang began to go on tour. Master Feng has basically retired. CXW and several of his class mates are good examples of Chen.
I believe that one of CXW's nephews is touring the US right now.
Nothing wrong with Yang or Sun or Wu if you have a good teacher- but Chen
is rich and comprehensive in theory and application.

Joy Chaudhuri

[Tainan Mantis]

SPJ,
Chen Pu doing taiji is a fact?
It happened 1000 yeasr ago but was committed to writing when?
Maybe we can divide the facts from the hearsay.

Since you are familiar with Qi Jiguang's book Chuen Jing(Ming dynasty) that would be a good place to start.

Maybe Taji in chen family didn't start untl after they learned that Taidzu form that was taught to the military in the Ming dynasty as documented in Qi Jiguang's book?

Have you ever thought about th fact that taiji and Taidzu sound somewhat similar(just a thought)?
Then add on the fact that the Taiji form contains many of the same names as the Taidzu form in Qi Jiguang's book.

[beaudacious]

According to warriors of stillness by Jan Dieplersoot, tai chi was originally know as "old three cuts" and the thirteen principles developed from there, then came the onslaught of complicated forms over time.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi B,
That is interesting.
Does Jan have a place where he got this info?

I have noticed that a lot of authors seem to pull "facts" out of the air.

None of the old manuals list "old three cuts" and most of the material is now widely available in English.

[SPJ]

The question is always that a single person or a group of people contributed to the origin of a style.

My last post was asking that if Chen family fighting methods since Chen Pu evolved into Tai Chi or Chen Wang Ting combined his family fighting methods, the military and other civilian methods into 7 or more routines.

Or Chen Chang Xing picked a few moves from Chen Wang Ting and expanded into Lao Jia. Or Chen Chang Xing combined all Chen Wang Ting routines into Lao Jia.

At the time of Chen Chang Xing, Lao Jia was not called Tai Chi Quan. When did people call it Tai Chi, I have no record. That was what I heard.

I was asking more questions.

Yes, Tai Tzu was also recorded in Qi Ji Guang's book. There are 36 moves.

And yes Chen Tai Ji Lao Jia has many similar moves with Tai Tzu.

And yes Peng Lu Ji An Cai Lie Zhou Kao are names and moves used in many other styles for a long time before Chen Tai Ji. They exist in Tai Tzu, too.

I think that stressing of silk reeling makes the difference. The names and moves may "look" the same, but there are different mechanisms at play.

:)

[SPJ]

Dong Hai Zhuang invented Ba Gua Zhang.

And yes it is unique enough. Did Dong discover everything overnite? Or there were inspirations?

There is a boxing style called spiralling palm or Ruo Xuan Zhang. There are more spiralling arm and body movements than in Ba Gua. One tendered the theory that Dong may have some ideas or similar ideas from that style.

Kuo Bu and Bai Bu are in many styles, too. They are not new. To use them into walking in a Ba Gua circle.

Dong was also known to be good at light step or Ching Gong. Dong would create something stressing steps.

Putting all these pieces together.

Maybe that is how Dong Hai Zhuang created Ba Gua Zhang.

I am not Dong. There were no records saying it is so.

One only based on several facts and tendered a theory that "perhaps" that is how Dong came about with Ba Gua Zhang.

It is only one of many "theories".



:D

[SPJ]

My last post was used as an example that how people come up with a theory that how a style was originated.

Over nite discovery?

Or inspirations from many practices and learning first?

Or learned from a unknown teacher? This is a favorite way or convenient way to say that we do not know.

Or evolved over time?

Or --

:D

[RAF]

Dong Hai Zhuang invented Ba Gua Zhang.

And yes it is unique enough. Did Dong discover everything overnite? Or there were inspirations?

There is a boxing style called spiralling palm or Ruo Xuan Zhang. There are more spiralling arm and body movements than in Ba Gua. One tendered the theory that Dong may have some ideas or similar ideas from that style.

Kuo Bu and Bai Bu are in many styles, too. They are not new. To use them into walking in a Ba Gua circle.

Dong was also known to be good at light step or Ching Gong. Dong would create something stressing steps.

Putting all these pieces together.

Maybe that is how Dong Hai Zhuang created Ba Gua Zhang.

I am not Dong. There were no records saying it is so.

One only based on several facts and tendered a theory that "perhaps" that is how Dong came about with Ba Gua Zhang.

It is only one of many "theories".

:D

However, not all theories are created equal and not all evidence is of the same value. To simply say that the Chen origin Taiji theory or Dong Hai Chuan bagua theory is incomplete, is not the same as saying the alternative theories are subtitutable or valid.

I've yet to see a well-documented, set of alternative evidence subject to the professional scrutiny that is minimally outside the reach of martial arts politics. Alternative theories always have their agenda.

The closet we have is Kang Ge Wu's thesis on the origin of bagua.

Simply recognizing the limits of his research and not being able to conclude with 100% certainty that Dong Hai Chuan was the founder (how about synthesizer or integrator of material) is NOT an admission that the alternative theories are acceptable explanations.

The alternative explanations have yet to prove their validity in the same rigor that Kang Ge Wu has done. Its kind of like the evolution v. intelligent design debate.

I also think this holds for the alternative theories of Taiji origins---especially with regard to the mythological figure, Zhang San Feng.

[Buddy]

I'm with Bob.

[scholar]

There are many origin stories, and there are many different motivations for those stories.

There is no proof that Chang San-feng dreamed about a snake and a crane in Wu Tang, or that the Ch'ens invented the art, just as there is no proof that Yang Lu-ch'an only taught the real art to his buddies and a fake art to everyone else. While I admire some of his work, Doug Wiles' books are mostly speculation (most of which I find specious), and he has to admit that there is no conclusive evidence for anything "T'ai Chi Ch'uan" from the Ch'ens or anyone else before 1800 or so, and not much even then. Actual physical documentation with verifiable provenance doesn't show up until about 1870-1900.

In the byzantine world of Chinese politics, many offshoot schools adopt a story which puts their founding in a better light as regards their competitors. The more traditional schools use a "teaching" story which holds some lesson as to the attitude they wish to promote about their art. Other schools have even had their founding stories imposed on them from the outside.

Objectively, my personal theory is that the origin can be found in the Neo-Confucians of the late Sung dynasty, and that the Ch'ens either applied those principles to martial art or were taught by someone who did. Any more than that is increasingly partisan speculation.

[SPJ]

Here is a link:

Chen Tai Ji (http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/chen.html)

:)