Mantis Body?

[Eddie]

I have been studying Choy Lay Fut and Northern Shaolin for many years now, and about a year ago, I started leanring Taiji Meihua tanglangquan with my Shaolin Sifu (master Wong Guang Quan) ‘s son. I never intended in learning mantis, it just kind of happened. Im greatful for that now.

My problem is. I am a pretty big fellow, Im 1.93m tall and weigh about 100 kilos. As I mention, my background is in CLF, which I still think is a very good style, and I am still loyal to this style. Im struggling to “ loosen up” , and Im struggling to get my body work right. In the beginning, the stances were the biggest problem for me, it just felt very sloppy, but Im getting used to it now.

My Kung Fu brother (and mantis teacher) is just one of those “ prodigy” type kids. Having grown up in a kung fu family (his father is the guy who played the emperor in the Movie shaolin temple with jet li). He studied tongbeiquan before learning mantis, and so he is very used to the loose body work. He doesn’t always understand my problem that much, so I thought that there must be others in this forum who had the same problems when they first started learning.

I really enjoy the mantis, and I feel the difference this style has made in my CLF and xiaobeiquan. I would like to get more proficient in this style. I never give up once I try something, and Im getting pretty annoyed with myself.

There must be other bigger guys who also study TJMHTLQ ? Would someone be able to give me some advice on how to develop better and looser body type for this style? Any Advice, recommendations or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

So far, I have learned the first summarised form, and White monkey stealing peach. Tonight I saw him perform 8 hands (I think) and wagon turner (that’s all he called them) and it made me even more eager to learn.

Thanks in advance.
Eddie

[Three Harmonies]

Eddie,
First and foremost do not get down on yourself. I am 6'3" 220 Pounds (pics on my site)! Not huge, but not tiny either. I have some other friends like Oso who is not tiny by any means.
I have dealt with all you are feeling and thinking right now. I still struggle with some of it, but ultimately I can care less how I look. I always think my sets look like ****. Yet I have placed in every tournament I have gone too. What counts in the end is how deep your understanding is, not how you look.
As for relaxing.....it takes time brother. Depending on what background you have (I do not just mean kung fu either), and your profession etc. I have a computer guy that trains with me, as well as a businessman that owns 5 different companies. Both of their shoulders are rock hard and unmovable!! For different reasons of course, but none the less tense beyond belief. They have been training a year and have made great improvements. Sometimes it is not just kung fu though. Lifestyle changes have to come as well for things such as chronic tension, stress etc.
Hang in there, and train diligently. I can offer some other relaxation exercises if you wish.

Cheers
Jake :D

[Eddie]

Three harmonies,
Thanks for the advice. Glad someone actually understand what Im going through.
I would really appreciate it if you can recommend some exercises for me, if possible.

Regards
Eddie

[spiralstair]

This works very well.
http://www.tomdrum.com/nots.php
Loosens the 4 majors.(hips,shoulders)
Simple, effective, gives as much as you put in. Just like mantis kung fu.
Good luck.

[Three Harmonies]

First of all many folks do not know where they are tense. Go thorugh from head to toes and group muscles together. For instance neck and head muscles, tense all of these as much as possible for 3-4 seconds, and then release the tension totally. Do this a few times, then move on to other muscle groups, etc.
I will write more later, but this should give you a good idea where you are tense, and what the difference is between tense and relaxed.

Jake

[mantid1]

I would like to recommend the silk reeling exercises from Chen Style Tai Chi.

I have started training in Chen style (a step up from my Yang style) a little over a year ago and I can see a a big difference "body movement".

While considering your question I looked into my own Praying mantis training to see If I had ever been taught any exercises specifically to deal with the problem you are having. I have not and have not spoken with anyone who has. I always just watched my teacher and tried to pick it up from there. I have been taught about the five different circles of the body from TJMH but that does not do much to develop the techniques and "body connection".

After thinking about this I am going to take my silk reeling exercises much more serious! I knew my teacher had a reason for teaching them to me!

You should be able to buy a tape with the exercises on them. I dont see a problem with getting them off of tape because you arnt trying to learn Chen Style or Praying Mantis just some exercises to help with flexibility and "body connection".

Thanks for reminding me I need to practice this stuff!

[Eddie]

I also study Chen Taiji, or rather I basically just started. When I talk about tense, im not really talking about muscular stiffness. Its hard to describe. Its as if I feel that my whole body is not loose enough to move in this way. I’ll post more tomorrow. Thanks for all the replies so far.
Ed

[mantid1]

Just dont expect any big break throughs over night. Remember the translation of Kung Fu.

[yu shan]

Great you are learning Tanglang. Mantid1 is so right, dont expect results overnight. I have been doing Mantis for 15 years and I am still trying to get it right. Enjoy what you are learning and dont sweat the small stuff.

[bung bo]

I've never practiced anything southern but I think I see what you mean about the differences in how they move. It will take a bit of time before you start "moving like a mantis."

What Jake said is a good way to find tension in your body. He is closer to your size than I am--5'9 140lbs. One of the things that helped me get loose was (believe it or not) being injured. It hurt too much to do the moves with much power so I practiced real soft. When I got a little better I could do them with more power and I was more relaxed. That's what I do:feel the interconnectedness of your body and start off soft and add more power as you progress.

[Three Harmonies]

Bung Bu has a great point. We always seem to think the bigger, the faster, the stronger THE BETTER!!! Right!? Not always. Over the summer both of my teachers made a similar comment, slow down and realy feel what you are doing! This has helped in more ways than I can explain, and it may help with your tension issues.
Jake :D

[Eddie]

thanks for the help. bung bo I htink you understand my problem. It just doenst feel right to be too relaxed, so I guess its just more training for me.

I can seriously see how this will influence my san da skill, so Im more than happy.

Any famous Mantis San Da fighters (talking about tournament san da/shou)?

[Three Harmonies]

Eddie
My teacher (as well as me) teach Mantis techniques that can easily utilized in the ring with boxing gloves on. Too many people get too wrapped up in grabbing with their hands in Mantis and often are blind to the fact that one can use the gloves just as easily without sacrificing technique.
One thing that comes to mind when you talk about being too relaxed..... in the Shanxi Xing Yi I practice, we move a bit faster than Taiji speed and a lot of people comment that it cannot be REAL Xing Yi because they are used to the explosiveness they see 99% of the time. The reason we train slowly (does not include fighting, just forms and sets) is so we can be aware of our structure (or lack thereof :p ). Without proper structure in ANY art, you cannot develope and issue maxium power. That is a fact! So we spend a lot of time ensuring our posture is proper. Not that other styles do not, many styles will focus on proper structure when static, but lose it in transition.
Going at a reduced speed not only makes one aware of structure, but also forces you to have complete control over your momentum. If you can control your momentum...well, you are basically walking around with a cannon inside you! This is what everyone talks about in reference to whole body power. Timing, momentum, and structure. Key!
So my rambling point is..... do not think just because Mantis is a fast system that you cannot benefit from slowing it down and analyzing! This has been most helpful in my practice, and has helped me reach levels and goals much quicker and with a better understanding of the art. I used to have the same problem (and many more ;) ) as you.
I hope this helps. If you all are ever interested I would love to visit your country and teach a semianr or two. Just let me know! :)

Cheers
Jake :D

[bung bo]

Eddie--I understand this problem because it is my biggest problem. I think you should keep on with your taiji. Taiji has so many benefits. It will help you find tension and eliminate it as well as help your structure. Those are the 2 things you should work on the most:eliminate tension and make your structure as correct as possible. Just like Jake said:to issue maximum power.

Great post, Jake.

[Laviathan]

Dear Eddie,

I am a small guy, but as you know, I have also learned Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut prior to learning Taiji Meihua Tanglang. So I kinda understand what you mean: I am very tensed (actually, good Hung Gar and CLF should be both relaxed and supple) and without relaxation my Mantis just does not get better. Also, I was used to the very firm stances of Southern Boxing, and learning the agile footwork of Taiji Meihua just felt rather odd. Fortunately, I have found a teacher who really stresses Mantis and Tongbei basics, and by training them, my body is finally starting to loosen up a little.

The thing is: each style of kungfu has its distinct flavour. Mantis, in my opinion, has a very unique flavour in that it incorporates many aspects from other styles with a result which is more than the sum of all things added. "The Long Fist of the Great Ancestor is the Father, while Han Tong's Tongbei is the Mother". Mantis is a short (duanda) system but its foundation is based on the elongated movements from Changquan and the loose relaxed body movements of Tongbei. Your teacher Chris, apart from being extremely talented, has learned both Northern Shaolin and Tongbei, so it is logical that he can pick up Mantis somewhat easier. From my experience in Beijing, it seems that Xingyi players can adapt to Six Harmony Mantis relatively easily. It's all about flavours.

I don't know if this makes any sense, but I really think that Mantis has a very strange "flow" and "flavour", which is very difficult to grasp. It is a very advanced system, and it certainly takes a lot of time before one can "move like a Mantis".

Suffice to say that I view Mantis as a style with a rather high threshold: it seems like the system assumes that the practitioner has already mastered a previous style which fits the requirements for Mantis.

You have trained CLF and Shaobei, and you are used to long movements, which is good for Mantis. But if you feel you cannot relax, then I would suggest you to stop your CLF and Shaobei training for a while. To use some Chinese philosophy: avoid the Yang flavour of CLF and Shaobei for a short period of time, in order to be able to taste the Yin flavour of Mantis. Just my two cents, though...

Other experienced posters like Yu Shan and Bung Bu have already given a lot of pointers. Also, Jake (Three Harmonies) comes from the same lineage as Chris and I (his teacher Hu Xilin and our teacher Ma Hanqing were both disciples of Grandmaster Ma Hanqing), he is familiar with the style you are training, so his advice will definitely help you a lot.

Forgive me for my rant. :o

Greetings,

René

[Three Harmonies]

Laviathan
Great post. You are too humble about your understanding of the arts. I could not have put it better myself.
Cheers
Jake :D

[Laviathan]

Thanks Jake! :)



Going at a reduced speed not only makes one aware of structure, but also forces you to have complete control over your momentum. If you can control your momentum...well, you are basically walking around with a cannon inside you! This is what everyone talks about in reference to whole body power. Timing, momentum, and structure. Key!
So my rambling point is..... do not think just because Mantis is a fast system that you cannot benefit from slowing it down and analyzing! This has been most helpful in my practice, and has helped me reach levels and goals much quicker and with a better understanding of the art. I used to have the same problem (and many more ;) ) as you.


Totally agree. This is what Ma Laoshi told me all the time: "Slow down and don't use strength! Only then will you be able to develop Shenfa and Jing... Once you have started to grasp this, then you can speed up."

Oh BTW I have posted some stuff about Shuaishou on MQ Forum. Please have a look and and tell me what you think.

:)

Greetings,

René

[Laviathan]

So far, I have learned the first summarised form, and White monkey stealing peach. Tonight I saw him perform 8 hands (I think) and wagon turner (that’s all he called them) and it made me even more eager to learn.


That would be the Ba Zhou (Eight Elbows Form) and the Fanche (Turning Cartwheel Form).

Hope this helps,

René

[Eddie]

Thanks lavation, and everyone else. I think I can use all advice, and hopefully one day I would be a skilled mantis practitioner. I cant stop CLF, I run a full time CLF school, and it is a style I really love, but what I will do is put more time into my mantis and taiji training. What you said about the solid clf stance is also true. Its not easy for me to get used to the loose foot work of mantis (and shaobei) but im getting there slowly but surely.

Master Wong’s friend, master Zhiang was here over Chinese new year, and he showed us some 7star. It was impressive. That guy is very talented.

Not 8 elbows, there was another one (seen 8 elbows too – this was defiantly something to do with hands). Will ask him next time we chat. Just been a tad busy the last few days.

Thanks, its great to have helpful seniors to turn to. I guess, technically speaking you are actually my kung fu uncle right? :-)

[Laviathan]

Master Wong’s friend, master Zhiang was here over Chinese new year, and he showed us some 7star. It was impressive. That guy is very talented.

Yeah, Chris mentioned master Zhang many times when we were in China. Hope to meet him and Master wang in the future, and you of course.


Not 8 elbows, there was another one (seen 8 elbows too – this was defiantly something to do with hands).

Oh but Chris knows two different forms of Eight Elbows (the Bazhou Forms in Praying Mantis almost always come in four, Chris learnt two of them).


Thanks, its great to have helpful seniors to turn to. I guess, technically speaking you are actually my kung fu uncle right? :-)

Nah, of course not. :)

You are a student of Master Wang, and Chris is your kungfu brother. Even if he teaches you Mantis, that does not change. I am Chris' kungfu brother. Your connection with Chris is through Shaobei. My connection with Chris is through Mantis. Different schools, so I am certainly not your kungfu uncle. I would like you to see me as a friend though. :)

Send my greetings to Chris!

[Eddie]

You are too humble lavatian (Jy is te nederig – can you read this?).

Will tell him you say hi. He is pretty busy with school now (started a course in animation or something), so we don’t have that much time to speak to each other anymore (in class we have no time to chat).

Here are some pics of master wong http://www.martialarts.co.za/choylayfut/picupdates/wong3.gif and here too, the thumbnails doesn’t work, just check out the rest http://www.martialarts.co.za/choylayfut/

Groete

[Laviathan]

You are too humble lavatian (Jy is te nederig – can you read this?).

Aha, Afrikaans! :D It's very similar to Dutch, so yeah I can read it. In contemporary Dutch, we would say: "Jij bent te bescheiden." :)


Will tell him you say hi. He is pretty busy with school now (started a course in animation or something), so we don’t have that much time to speak to each other anymore (in class we have no time to chat).

Yes, I know... I haven't talked to Chris for a long time. Back in China, we were always hanging out together. I kinda miss him. :p Hope everything's OK and he is doing fine with his studies.


Here are some pics of master wong http://www.martialarts.co.za/choylayfut/picupdates/wong3.gif and here too, the thumbnails doesn’t work, just check out the rest http://www.martialarts.co.za/choylayfut/

Thanks for the link. Master Wang really looks like a warrior monk from ancient times, I can see a certain "presence" when looking at the picture. You are very lucky to have such a teacher.

Oh, as a matter of fact: technically speaking, you are either my kungfu uncle or kungfu cousin (depends on which generation you are from)! You see, my Choy Li Fut teacher was a student of the late Master Lee Koon Hung. After Master Lee passed away my sifu became a disciple of Master Doc-Fai Wong. I see you are from the Lee Koon Hung lineage, so we are family afterall. :)

Hope to visit you and Chris in SA in the future! Of course, you are welcome to come to Holland too.

Groetjes,

René

[yu shan]

Laviathan

I appreciate the information you have provided here, many thanks. I have a couple of questions and a few comments.

Ba Zhou form:
Can you help me with "Ba Zhou form in PM comes in four"? I have never heard this before. I have not learned this form yet, hopefully someday. Especially because it is considered one of the core Mantis forms.

The Traditional History of Plum Blossom Praying Mantis Boxing
by Ilya Profatilov:
A composition written by Profatilov Laoshi in the Journal of Asian Martials Arts, volume #10, 2001.
Have you read this piece? I have had the opportunity to train some with both Ilya and Hu Xi Lin. Taiji Mei Hua PM Boxing is a fabulous style.

Yes, I agree with others here, training my forms slowly has helped in many ways.

[Eddie]

yip, master wong is amazing.

Im part of the lee koon hung assocation. My first clf sifu was a student of LKH. Our school as opened in 87, before Master LKH even went to the usa.

Well, if ever you want to come visit, just call us. Im sure we can arange everything for you. Our houses are always open to friends.

Chris is big on break dancing. Im to old (and to big) for that, but I do enjoy it too. On Sunday we actually met the SA B boys (pro performing break dance troup) and ended up playing with them. Even master wong got exited and involved int he fun.

Some more pics. (Thats my son in the baby lion )http://www.nanhua.co.za/events/2005/2005Feb12New%20Year%20Celebration/b010.JPG

http://www.nanhua.co.za/events/2005/2005Feb12New%20Year%20Celebration/b014.JPG

[Mika]

Eddie, my background is in CLF (as you may or may not remember or know). I started to train Qi Xing Tang Lang under Shifu Slawomir Milczarek last year. Since then, I have learned more about CLF than in the 5-6 years before that ;)

The power generation in CLF and TL are very different. The stances are different. CLF stances are very strong. You push your knees out and put weight on the outside of your foot. This is perfectly natural since a lot of CLF power is "through" power. A softer stance would simply give in.
In TL, the stances are kind of the opposite and power generation is more focused on the swift action of the hip (Shen Fa). This is very difficult for me (and everyone else here, we have about 20 former CLF instructors learning TL now). Although all good Kung Fu (and all sports) require the use of relaxed muscles, in CLF it's even harder to accomplish due to the very Yang nature of the style in the first years. Sure, CLF is very Yin too, but I have seen more of the Yang as that is how it is usually taught first (nothing wrong with that, that's how CLF works). So, I feel your pain.

Since TL is a little softer in its stances and the movements are a little shorter in general, I have been able to begin to pay attention to my abs and lower back. This is the key, not just for me but for everyone. Okay, how we all get to that relaxed state, is a matter of personal thinking, but in the end, these muscle groups should generate the power and shoulders should follow. For years and years, I was told to relax my shoulders, but that never did anything for me. Now that I have learned to understand that I should use some other muscle groups instead (well, duh!), I am slowly beginning to understand how to - some day - be a little more relaxed - and thus faster! ;)

I don't know if that helps you at all, but that's how I see it. But I do think that it's not very easy to study CLF and TL at the same time. That's just me, though...

Remember, I am a n00b in TL... :o

Another former CLF guy here has credited his relaxed muscles to CLF Lohan Qi Gong.

Whatever works, I guess :)

mika

[Laviathan]

Laviathan

I appreciate the information you have provided here, many thanks. I have a couple of questions and a few comments.

Glad to be of service! You are too kind, I am just sharing the very little knowledge I have.


Ba Zhou form:
Can you help me with "Ba Zhou form in PM comes in four"? I have never heard this before. I have not learned this form yet, hopefully someday. Especially because it is considered one of the core Mantis forms.

Well, in the Taiji Meihua school of Beijing, we have four Ba Zhou forms. My Babu Tanglang teacher, Sifu Mike Martello, once told me: "Ba Zhou almost always comes in four." If we look at the various Tanglang schools in Shandong, they all have four forms of Bazhou. Of course, there are always exceptions: some schools have two forms (Shang Bazhou/Upper Eight Elbows and Xia Bazhou/Lower Eight Elbows), others have three (Shang and Xia plus Zhong Bazhou/Middle Eight Elbows).

According to my Taiji Meihua teacher, Ma Weiling Laoshi, the core forms of the Taiji Meihua Mantis style are:

Bai Yuan Tou Tao (White Gibbon Steals Peach)
Bengbu (Crushing Step)
Fanche (Turning Cartwheel)
Lanjie (Intercepting Form)
Fenshen Bazhou (Dividing Body Eight Elbows)
Goufa (Hooking Methods)

The Dividing Body Eight Elbows, or Bazhou in short, are four forms in total. Apart from using elbow techniques, it teaches knee attacks, hip throws, head butts etc. Actually, all fighting methods apart from "normal" punching and kicking can be more or less found within the Bazhou routines. It really adds some interesting stuff to your Tanglang arsenal. Bazhou is considered a very advanced form. It is also a short-hand form, and should be taught after the student has become proficient with the long-hand forms of Tanglang.

I was too greedy when training in Beijing, and really wanted to learn the Bazhou forms before I was ready. I was too tensed already and the short elbow movements of Bazhou certainly did not help... I have learnt the first form of Bazhou, and I can really dream the whole routine, but nowadays I concentrate on Mantis basics and exercises to relax my body. I will pick up the forms when I feel I am ready.

In the Chinese martial arts, there's a saying:"Lian Chang Bu Lian Duan, Lian Ying Bu Lian Ruan (train the Long but not the Short, train the Hard but not the Soft). That is, the practitioner should start with long movements and later advance to short movements. He also should acquire raw, hard power (hard but not stiff!) first and then start to refine it, make it subtle and fluid.

That was my rant... :o Hope it was useful in some ways.


The Traditional History of Plum Blossom Praying Mantis Boxing
by Ilya Profatilov:
A composition written by Profatilov Laoshi in the Journal of Asian Martials Arts, volume #10, 2001.
Have you read this piece? I have had the opportunity to train some with both Ilya and Hu Xi Lin. Taiji Mei Hua PM Boxing is a fabulous style.

I haven't read this article by Profatilov Laoshi, but I would love to read it. Taiji Meihua is a very beautiful and effective style, and Hu Laoshi and Profatilov Laoshi are both great teachers. They are my kungfu uncles, but I have never met them in real life before. Hopefully I will be able to visit them in the near future.

[Laviathan]

yip, master wong is amazing.

Im part of the lee koon hung assocation. My first clf sifu was a student of LKH. Our school as opened in 87, before Master LKH even went to the usa.

Uhuh, so in a way, we are kungfu cousins. ;)


Well, if ever you want to come visit, just call us. Im sure we can arange everything for you. Our houses are always open to friends.

Thanks, my friend.


Chris is big on break dancing. Im to old (and to big) for that, but I do enjoy it too. On Sunday we actually met the SA B boys (pro performing break dance troup) and ended up playing with them. Even master wong got exited and involved int he fun.

Yeah, we did some Capoeira in the park when we were in China... Not my cup of tea. :D


Some more pics. (Thats my son in the baby lion )http://www.nanhua.co.za/events/2005/2005Feb12New%20Year%20Celebration/b010.JPG

http://www.nanhua.co.za/events/2005/2005Feb12New%20Year%20Celebration/b014.JPG

Thanks for the pics!

[Mika]

Eddie, by the way, if you find a way to move nicely between the two (CLF and TL), please let me know. Although I will only study TL anymore, hints and tips might prove to be very helpful - not just for me but for a lot of us (former CLFers).

Thanks :)

//mika

[Eddie]

Mika,
I guess I will just take it slowly now. Do as these seniors said, and just work on my form, then focus on speed.

You no longer study CLF? Is there a reason for that? I still love CLF, and I doubt I will ever give it up. If you can get a balance between the two styles, you should be a good martial artists.

Eddie

[Mika]

I hope it all goes well. Keep us posted on your progress! :)

I sent you a PM.

Mika