How do you practice WC? Hard or soft?

[Happeh]

I seen lots of different WC. Some of them are soft like Tai Chi maybe. Some of them were hard with that dynamic tension stuff.

Which way is your WC? Do you know the reason why the head guy chose that particular way?

[couch]

Soft and Hard (enter big booming voice:) At T h e S a m e T i m e...

Relaxed energy...in a way, from the 'hard' attack to a relaxed state immediately after or if the attack was intercepted...let the energy go and find another way around.

If you have no tension, then you can react the fastest. Have confidence, face the centre and believe in the techniques...

It's too early to be posting. I sound like a ....yah.

Peace,
Kenton

[Gangsterfist]

How do you practice WC? Hard or soft?

Neither, we practice it neutral.

[anerlich]

couch and gangsterfist are correct.


Do you know the reason why the head guy chose that particular way?

Yes I do.

But you'll have to Bai Si to a Yik Kam Sifu to find out :p

[Happeh]

I need a new martial arts forums. Anyone know of one with a very very large membership?

None of those are answers. They are mystical crapola. ;)

With a larger membership base, there is usually at least one honest person who does not mind being honest.These answers sound like people hiding because they do not want someone to say "Hey! You are wrong!".

Neutral. What the heck does that mean? Jump and and do the whoopdedoo on the Yik Bai Bo. Huh?

No one got the confidence to stand tall and say "This is what we do, right or wrong"?

I seen two Wing Chun. One was doing it soft like Tai Chi. I had real doubts about this style. People who were strong did OK in this style because they were already strong. People who were weak? I never believed they learned anything. They could do the moves sure. But the minute anyone put power on them, they folded up like a chair.

The other style utilized dynamic tension to train strength in people. Real kung fu strength, not weightlifting strength. These guys were dangerous. Close to real chinese kung fu people dangerous.

If you were going to war or the police or you wanted to be a bouncer, you would want to train the dynamic tension style. If you were learning to learn principles or for relaxation or exercise, then the soft Tai Chi style was what people need.

I am not saying the Chi Sau was hard. I am talking about the Sil Lum Tau form. To learn sensitivity people do Chi Sau soft and if you are super skilled you do Chi Sau soft. If you were working with someone who might hurt you, and you were only middling skill, there is strength in the arms when you Chi Sau. Otherwise a person could punch right thru a soft Bong Sau or Tan Sau.

There. I stood up tall and said what I think whether it opens me up to ridicule or not. Anyone else encouraged enough by my example to open up and be honest about what they think?

[jonp]

relaxation is paramount in wck, you wont find me using dynamic tension.

it is possible to be soft and yet not collapse. this is what correct wck teaches.

people gave you the correct answer straight away, hence no more discussion.

later

[Gangsterfist]

what do you mean honest answer?

I gave you one, its nuetral, neither hard nor soft, its somewhere inbetween. that is the simple short answer. If you really want to see the wing chun I do, unfortunately you would have to train with me in person. When you watch someone chi sao you get the idea that its some sort of sparring exercise, but its not. When you "feel" the roll in chi sao you can better understand what people are explaining to you.


I can describe it to you all day but you would never really know how I train until you actually trained with me.

[unkokusai]

I need a new martial arts forums. Anyone know of one with a very very large membership?


You need an anime forum or something. You may find geeks of your ilk to associate with.

[mortal]

Happeh

The question you asked was very open ended ans can be interpreted many different ways.

Maybe you should be more specific.

Oh and try to show some intitial respect. If you act like a punk, you'll get treated like one.

So lets start over.

What is it you want to know?
Detailed this time please.

[cobra]

it should be so soft that your opponent blows through and you're not there, but he's already had the crap knocked out of him. if you are attacking, it should be soft enough that you can feel what is going on and respond without fighting force against force, yet when the punch lands it should land with considerable force that is developed from speed and relaxation. I know this is bound to get lots of criticism and I didn't cover every possible scenario, but this is hard to explain in text as opposed to an actual demonstration.

[PaulH]

"There. I stood up tall and said what I think whether it opens me up to ridicule or not. Anyone else encouraged enough by my example to open up and be honest about what they think? - Happy"

Until I figure out the deep root of your cyber restlessness, it's too early to recommend a more therapeutic forum in your current "crapola" condition. - Dr. Paul =D

P.S. Joking aside, WC is neither soft nor hard in my opinion. It is about being natural. Ask yourself this. Do you work to acquire or to become? =)

[anerlich]

None of those are answers. They are mystical crapola.

What, you mean like all the stuff about pyramids on the triangles thread?

You act like you expect people to think your posts are brilliant and treat you accordingly, then get pugnacious and upset when not everyone agrees.

Taiji is not soft. Taiji is hard AND soft. I only spent five years doing it, but that's my understanding.

Efficient and effective physical movement requires the effective coordination of tension and relaxation. It isn't physically possible to move the body without some muscular tension, and hitting hard and moving fast require explosive muscular contractions - "hard", if you insist on making this distinction. Sensitivity and economy of movement also require relaxation of the antagonists (soft). Both are necessary for success in WC.

My academy practices a style of WC which probably has a larger structure, and more emphasis on footwork and athletic conditioning than many. We're proably toward the harder end of the continuum - my teacher has experience both in the ring and in defense situations, and feels this focus is most effective.


I need a new martial arts forums. Anyone know of one with a very very large membership?

www.mma.tv
www.sherdog.com

Are very good sites, but they are not KF sites.

www.bullshido.com sounds like your kind of site.

[Wingman]

When you attack, you should attack hard. You can't knock out your opponent with a "soft" punch!

When you defend, use "soft" energy. By "soft", I mean absorbing and/or redirecting the opponent's attack. Don't use force against force to defend.

[SAAMAG]

When you attack, you should attack hard. You can't knock out your opponent with a "soft" punch!

When you defend, use "soft" energy. By "soft", I mean absorbing and/or redirecting the opponent's attack. Don't use force against force to defend.

And to add on, one cannot punch quickly or effectively without staying loose. It wouldn't do you any good to punch with a tensed arm. You lose power and speed that way. I simply tell people to stay relaxed and to punch "naturally".
And as the saying goes, to tense at the moment of impact, and nowhere else.

[Gangsterfist]

IMHO, you can practice it both hard and soft, for various training reasons. Try it for yourself.

However


When in chi sao, or sparring, or even real fighting, you should be nuetral, firm with intent, but not using tension (expect the tension used, ie if you make a fist there is dynamic tension in your arm because of you making a fist), relaxed but not a soggy noodle.

Maybe that will make more sense to you.

[JohnnyMnemonic]

I read a book called wing chun and dynamic tension so there must be such a thing.

Where does dynamic tension fit in with the answers "it is neutral" and "it is soft" and "you won't catch me using dynamic tension"?

How long does it take the soft or neutral people to develop power?

Thanks

[Wingman]

I read a book called wing chun and dynamic tension so there must be such a thing.

Where does dynamic tension fit in with the answers "it is neutral" and "it is soft" and "you won't catch me using dynamic tension"?

How long does it take the soft or neutral people to develop power?

Thanks

I think the words "soft" and "hard" cannot adequately describe the energies employed during WC practice. Last week, I practiced a drill with a junior classmate. I tried to show him the different energies involved when practicing WC by using different energies using the same drill. After doing the drills, I ask him if he can tell the difference.

He said that the first energy is linear, fast, snappy, crisp, forceful. The second energy tends to be circular, looks slow, very sticky, very heavy with constant pressure. He never mentioned the words "soft" and "hard".

[Gangsterfist]

JM-

Make a fist. You can still remain relaxed while a fist is curled in your hand. The dynamic tension moves and controls those fingers, it expands and contracts muscles and tendons.

No matter what you do, you body will have dynamic tension, its just how muscles work.

[JohnnyMnemonic]

I thought that dynamic tension was just that. Doing a form or exercise with the muscles tense.

I thought that soft meant just that. Doing a form softly, with no force or tension in the move.

What I am talking about is obvious. It doesn't need any special knowledge or terms to describe. You can see the dynamic tension person tense up and do the exercise. You can see the soft person kind of floating with no obvious looking power.

What are the reasons some of those guys do it soft and some with dynamic tension? Forms only. Not Chi Sau, Not real life fighting, not wooden dummy, not bart cham do, nothing else. Just the forms.

Why do some people do the Sil Lum tau soft and why do others do it with dynamic tension? Is there benefits or drawbacks to either method?

[Matrix]

I thought that dynamic tension was just that. Doing a form or exercise with the muscles tense. That sounds like just tension to me. What makes it 'dynamic'?

[KPM]

Hey JM!

What are the reasons some of those guys do it soft and some with dynamic tension? Forms only. Not Chi Sau, Not real life fighting, not wooden dummy, not bart cham do, nothing else. Just the forms. Why do some people do the Sil Lum tau soft and why do others do it with dynamic tension? Is there benefits or drawbacks to either method?

---Here is one way to look at it. The best kind of conditioning for any given activity should be as "activity specific" as you can get. Doing the exact movements of the activity with "dynamic tension" is one way to get a conditioning effect. So one could do the WCK forms with "dynamic tension" as a form of strength conditioning for those specific motions. But that doesn't necessarily mean that those motions would be applied with that same amount of tension. But using lots of tension while doing the forms does not allow you to feel how things should "flow", does not allow you to develop any "snapping" or "whipping" power in the motions, and does not always produce good structural alignment.

The WCK forms can also be done very softly and slowly....almost like doing slow Tai Chi. This allows one to focus more on alignment, flow, and dare I say...."awareness." :D But again, this is not necessarily how the motions would be applied, and does not lead to good power development in my opinion.

Then the forms can be done with an energy that is somewhere between these two extremes. Here one can develop "snap" in the motions, work on various timings between the motions, and come much closer to how the movements would actually be applied.

So bottom line....the forms can be done with various "energies" for various purposes. I think focusing entirely on one extreme without practicing the other would be a mistake. Hope that helps! :)

Keith

[KPM]

That sounds like just tension to me. What makes it 'dynamic'?

In exercise science, you can have "isometric tension", which means the muscles are tensed in a static position...no motion. Then you can have "dynamic tension", which is similar...but now the tension is done while moving. This is the equivalent of doing a resistance exercise, but without the weight. Imagine doing a biceps curl without actually having a dumbbell in hand, but rather tensing the muscles as much as possible so that you move through the motion slowly with lots of resistance. This is often done in a training program when someone has injured a joint as a preliminary step in the progressing back to weight lifting exercises because it minimizes the load on the joints during the activity.

Keith

[Hendrik]

Thus, I have heard,


Classically,

1, Kang doesnt mean hard, Rou doesnt mean Soft. Kang means solid focus, abrupt change, but not britter or rigid. Rou means spread loose, gradual change, but not scatering.




2, and even if one take the Kang as " hard " or Rou as "soft".

Manifest a WC movement in either hard or soft are both extreme way which is off the mark.


The manifestation of WC movement has to be Hard withing soft and soft within hard.


3, Awareness is independent of "hard" or "soft", Kang or Rou.


4, Doing form in either "hard" only or "soft " only extreme is a mis- practice or has not much usefull. For form is a rehersal (sp) of cases of reality. and going
extreme in reality will not last long.




Some other style can steal SLT's movement to make up thier set. Some can import taiji into thier form. But, is it what is it?

When people are copying the Ying but left out the Yang from SLT and called that equavalent set. When people are emphasis only the Yang and left out the Yin from SLT and called that the Olderst set. how balance the system will be? A broken Arrow platform is about a Yang goes extreme, thus all the chinese internal art system avoid it. and how an imbalance system can supporting one in daily application? some never understand SLT at all even they keep copying, importing, and claiming.


similar to a whipping, if there is plain soft then It will never be able to snap. similar to a steel if there is only plain hard then I will break. there are lots of things beyond the shape that people dont AWARE of but thinking they AWARE, and thus, the form practice become useless.

Kang and Rou can clearly be seen similar to in the TaiJi cycle diagram, Yin within Yang, Yang Within Yin. Eventhough, the taiji cycle diagram is non -dual. A coin has two faces, each faces are clearly define, However, when using a coin both faces are used in the same time.


As it said:

come retain goes sent it back.
using silence/awareness to mastering the action.
disangage/release and trust forward
using both Kang and rou in pair.



simple but holisitcs sumarization if one AWARE of the Saying.



Silence/Awareness
Awareness is that illuminating effortless alertness while the cat watching the mouse hole in silence without thinking.



They called it Sam Bai Fut while practicing Siu Lien Tau with Siu Niem Tau. or Three praying to the Buddha while practicing the essense of detail training with Less Thought.

Buddha is the one who aware.
and Sam Bai Fut, three times praying to the Buddha, is three practice of --- penetrating into the three layers --Awareness of Physical, Emotional, and mental layer. Being able to penetrate into Physical layer will let one knows the Physical--- motion, breathing, qi, muscle, sinews, tension.......and thier interaction; Being able to penetrate into Emotional skandal will let one knows the emotion--- anger, fear, restlessness..how they arise; Being able to penetrate into mental layer will let one knows the mind ----- tunel vision, bias, ego....when one takes one identity blindly and treat others with out compassionate.

Every practice of SLT is a rehersal (sp) of life. Thus, it can take a long time similar to one can sit and watching movie for hours.... watching...keep watching.. rehersal and keep rehersal. The more one watches, the more one rehersal the more one knows about the natural of physical, emotional, and mental. the closer one be able to using silence/awareness to mastering the action....



There is much much more then hard and soft, Much much more details. Thus, it is called the art of essense of detail training.



Thus, I have heard. Thus, I have heard. a legend which has faded away century ago in time.....

[JohnnyMnemonic]

The reason this is all interesting to me is there was this one group of guys that did the form with the dynamic tension. They didn't just do it once in awhile. That was how they did the form all the time.

That is why I got all confused with the various energies and all that stuff. It didn't make sense. I just saw one thing all the time.

Supposedly this provided them with a type of strength that was rare in WC. Don't get the idea this was one of those places selling superman power drink for 9.95. They did the form the way they did because it was truly supposed to give them a specific kind of rare kung fu power.

Some of these guys were the strongest WC guys I ever saw. All the other ones I saw were usually kinda thin or skinny and they had no power. These guys were strong, you could tell the minute you looked at them. When they were in a room, you kept your eyes on them because you could tell they were dangerous. If they walked into the room you immediately turned around to see who was there because you could feel someone powerful in the room.

That is why I was trying to cut thru all the millions of kinds of energy and philosopical stuff and pin people down. I wanted to find out some hard, useful, understandable information. Maybe some description of what people meant so I could get a feel for what they were trying to say. Repeating books never makes sense to me. If someone tells me about people or events, for some reason that seems to be easier or more intuitive to understand.

I think it is because I beleive them. If I hear a book repeated, I never know if the person knows anything beyond that. If I hear a personal story with personal insight, then I can better decide if I think the person is credible.

[t_niehoff]

The words "hard" and "soft" are meaningless -- do you box hard or soft? It's all theoretical nonsense. If you are not fighting, how can you say anthing about how to *do* WCK anyway (or are you talking about how you do forms and drills?)? And this talk about the importance of being "relaxed" -- how is this different than what every athelte does?

If you do lots of dynamic tension or lift weights, you'll get stronger. That doesn't mean you can fight (do WCK) well, just like it doesn't make you a good boxer. There are lots of big, strong guys at a Gold's Gym; you can look at them as see it. But they can't fight, and you can see that too.

[Gangsterfist]

wing chun is a nuetralizing art, it does not yeild, and it does not use force. You are always netralizing space and energy.

[Hendrik]

.

Supposedly this provided them with a type of strength that was rare in WC.

.



rare makes WC evolve as always.


similar to a whipping, if there is only plain soft then It will never be able to snap. similar to a steel if there is only plain hard then It will break.


practice WC either Hard or soft is an extreme.

[t_niehoff]

gangsterfist wrote:

wing chun is a nuetralizing art, it does not yeild, and it does not use force. You are always netralizing space and energy.

**This is more theoretical nonsense, and thinking like this only proves a person doesn't do WCK (fight). WCK uses force (power), as does every fighting art: you can't defeat someone without using power. If you believe you can, go fight and see for yourself. In fact, WCK trains us to use our whole body, coordinated in a certain way, to achieve significant levels of power. And all martial arts involve "neutralizing" (another nonsensical term IMO) or dealing with an opponent's power (they don't just stand there and take it).

[Hendrik]

gangsterfist wrote:

wing chun is a nuetralizing art, it does not yeild, and it does not use force. You are always netralizing space and energy.

**This is more theoretical nonsense, and thinking like this only proves a person doesn't do WCK (fight). WCK uses force (power), as does every fighting art: you can't defeat someone without using power.

If you believe you can, go fight and see for yourself. In fact, WCK trains us to use our whole body, coordinated in a certain way, to achieve significant levels of power. And all martial arts involve "neutralizing" (another nonsensical term IMO) or dealing with an opponent's power (they don't just stand there and take it).


TN,

IMHHO,
it is not more a theoretical nonsense but a Goal , a dream.

A goal or dream might be meet in the future if one find a way to implement the needed process.
Dare to dream is a great thing as soon as one is keeping dig in and dig in and checking one's realitism, and somedays, one will make correction/eliminate on what is not realized able and reach one's Goal or dream.







As Einstien said, the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them.

As it said, you want to be a millionaire, then grow your mind to be a millionaire mind first.





IMHHO, WCK in general, today, it has reached a point of NO DREAM and stuck with the limitation or boundary block, stagnated.

1, One way it was beat with Brute Force of so called "reality in fighting" such as POWER is needed. Power will beat you if you dont do grappling and going to ground to prepare yourself. even the sifu believe in it, so they are going to learn grappling and etc to beat thier student to show or enforce the "personal Truth" they believe in.

those kind of survival scary thoughts with enforcement which only foucs on defensive against this and that will not go too far but generate lots of fear and hopeless situation with the mind close and no way out but sumit to surrender to brute force and not longer being creative or ALive.

IE: when one drives a car , one dont think about defense against this car or that car to avoid accident, if one keeps thinking only on defence against accident one is going to get into accident. and will keep believe that is the faith. but not AWARE of the root cause is what one focus and put the attention on become a "personal reality".

Also, such as the person who walked in the steel string, his attention has to be focus on how to cross to the other end, and must not focus on how to not fall or avoid fall. For, he will fall because there are millions way of falling and one cannot prepare every cases and one dont need too.




if that kind of wrong focus mis-lead attention placing scary thoughts were used to grow our childern then only fear and failure will grow in them. it, at the end , will resolve into Violent or totally giving up similar to an animal putting in a cage, keep feed it with threat, fear, no hope, failure, and get it up to no way out. either it becomes violent or freeze and die.

and Alots of time, enforce on these type of thoughts or focus or attention is to gain power of control against our junior. Similar to "dont cry or the Tiger will come and get you." that is just Taboo of Sifu's to make sure the student is under control and never present a different view. The tragic is that Unknowingly, the sifu also program him/herself with this type of fear and mis focus/mis place attention since this is an easy way out to make the junior to be submissive, and the more they practice the more they make mis focus, mis attantion, and fear thier habit.



On the other hand, WCK is limited by the STORY of Grand master A's lock down YJKYM, Grand Master B's Kuen Kuit, Grand Master C's zero power jing using lower spine. Which has not much contents but a series of terminology worth nothing more then story.



IMHHHHO.





So,
Until one can get beyond these above, there will be no real progress. Again,

As Einstien said, the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. if we have already program ourself with those type of fear, mis-focus.... we better rise beyond that type of thinking and transcent. otherwise, lots of term such as grapper, wck, bruce Lee ... can be come an anchoring term which directly triggle one's behavior into fear, or anger.... .

it will be great if I can program you to heard about WCK and feel paralized similar to you heard about this is Bruce Lee or this is the head master in the grade school for an obidient kid. :D so there is no suprise why people doesnt perform that good against Bruce Lee's mother art WCK in the early day while Bruce Lee was very popular. because Bruce Lee is the triggle word to paralized one or get one into fear. and the reality is those GENERAL people are just knowing tan bong fok and chain punch, Tan Da, lap Da..and thier stance is flimsy.. and very narrow range of art, so what to be fear of?






So, until we learn and know how to think beyond. we are just dealing with our problem and thinking and fear from the same level of thinking we were at the level we create them.


EVery thought has its based on Some truth, such as while one walks in the steel strink. Think about how to avoid falling has the same truth with thinking about how to cross safely. But, thinking and focus about how to cross safely yield a much better chance to cross safely.

See, there are positive and negative way of manifestation from the idea to the physical world which we all has to learn. And I believe that is the depth of thea rt of thinking and the key of what Einstien said, the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. if we focus on avoid falling then we might not even reach the otherside of the steel string. Focus in what is NOT WCK is not going to manifest a Yes WCK. And Yes WCK is beyond anyone's definition.


IMHHHHHHHHHHO



BTW, Neutralizing is not a nonsense. as soon as one can disturb the balance of the incoming force or momentum to make it against itself is an neutralizing act.

Neutralizing is used in control system design by cleverly manual. IE. one is using the noise cancellation headphones in the airplane.



Ofcause I can be deadly wrong.
Just Some thoughts.

[Hendrik]

wing chun is a nuetralizing art, it does not yeild, and it does not use force. You are always netralizing space and energy.




IT is extreme important to know similar to Micheal jordan, Where to put the focus, what is the right thing to do, and what is the right tool to use, at the instant.

and that required AWARENESS to begining with not thinking, For thinking is just a simulation tool or analytical tool or deduction tool or induction tool or idea generator..... it said nothing about reality. it knows not about reality.

So, one has to watch that thinker in silence. via the silence watcher or AWARENESS.



just some thoughts.

[Gangsterfist]

gangsterfist wrote:

wing chun is a nuetralizing art, it does not yeild, and it does not use force. You are always netralizing space and energy.

**This is more theoretical nonsense, and thinking like this only proves a person doesn't do WCK (fight). WCK uses force (power), as does every fighting art: you can't defeat someone without using power. If you believe you can, go fight and see for yourself. In fact, WCK trains us to use our whole body, coordinated in a certain way, to achieve significant levels of power. And all martial arts involve "neutralizing" (another nonsensical term IMO) or dealing with an opponent's power (they don't just stand there and take it).

Perhaps the wing chun you study and I study are different. A tan sao does not use force, it just exists. It does not yield (roll back, pull, parry). It nuetralizes incoming force. It redirects the attack, and absorbs the space. Most other wing chun techniques are like this. Their is a conceptual understanding of this nature of the techiques provided by WCK. It is up to the practitioner to realize the differences and understand the concepts. Of course not everyone thinks the same, so results may vary.

I currently train in one external martial art, one internal, and one nuetral. I also do cardio and calistinic conditioning with my gung fu training. There is a conceptual difference. You might gain benefits in your training knowing this stuff or you might not. For me personally, it does help me learn certain aspects at a quick pace sometimes. It also helps me teach to someone else easier, like when I help out a jr student.

Really when you break things down the the core essential its all about motion of energy and how to control it. Thats what wins fights. Not force, not knowledge, not concepts. Physical attributes only help you so much, there is always someone bigger, stronger, faster than you. So, you cannot always rely on them.

Perhaps maybe you could look at things from a difference perspective other than just tell me I am wrong.