Ray Pina wants to fight

[red5angel]

and he's every angry no one one wants to fight back! All takers except for professional venues. Internal or external practitioners makes no difference. $500 on the outcome of the fight is appreciated but not required. PM Ray Pina with all enquiries!


How's that Ray? :D

[Ray Pina]

Well, I prefer to do my own talking and be a little more polite and modest .... more of the, "I'm putting some things together now and would like an avenue to test my materials before 'going out" officially, blah, blah, blah" .... but you captured the main points.

However: $500 is required ... no gloves or gear ... and I want to film.

[MasterKiller]

Did everyone at the NY Throwdown put up $500? Go bare knuckle?

Where's the film evidence?

[red5angel]

ooops! sorry I thought the 500$ was optional.

Oh also - KFM does not support the phenomena of internet challenges or those internet challenges that actually get followed through with. If you want to fight Ray, better to email him and leave KFM out of it, right Gene :D

[red5angel]

also, notice Ray that I said you were angry! this works two ways, either they really think you're angry and hence are scared OR they think you are angry and will not have good control. sort of a win win situaton if you ask me.

[Ray Pina]

Red, you looking for a percentage? :)


MK, the throwdown took place and I filmed. The info was posted on Bullshido.com. I was kind of expecting something else but all in all I learned and had fun and no one got hurt though there was a little blood ;)

As for footage I'll only post footage of me getting owned -- which I wasn't that day. God willing, by the end of the year I'll have a nice collection of footage. I'm investing in a Canon dig video and a Mac tomorrow so I don't have to borrow from friends anymore.

[Ray Pina]

PS

This whole thread is kind of silly and making me feel self conscious but I am serious about it.

I was invited to the Throwdown so I didn't even mention money -- especially since it was at someone else's school. Just not right. And, if someone really wants to fight to test out their stuff and seems cool, of course money will not be an option.

[Merryprankster]

Ray,

I do hope that if I ever see you in NYC (I'm toying with the idea of coming up and meeting some of the KFMers before I leave the east coast) we can try each other out in a friendly way.

I don't really want to pay $500 to anybody, and my goals don't revolve around that sort of thing....like I said - I know EXACTLY what I am - a combative sportist - nothing more, nothing less.

However, I'm certainly amenable to filming.

[red5angel]

Warning Ray, make sure ou and MP are not in a raised ring otherwise he'll use his deadly, slipping out of the ring technique!!!! :p

[SiuHung]

Sheesh Ray, If I ever get to NY again I'll e-mail ya. No money need be involved, just a learning experience, some fun, and maybe a beer afterwards.

[MasterKiller]

I'm curious to hear how the super-secret shoot defense worked out for you. I take it from this quote


Gumby, thanks for the ground work. You're very good at what you do. I really need to learn how to handle you guys on the ground -- you guys have fantastic transitions.

that you spent some time on the ground?

[Ray Pina]

MasterKiller, if you REALLY want to know. At first I played his game, we started on the ground. I captured his head in about .5 seconds and held onto it for about 2 minutes straight .... the whole time I could've been feeding him fists.

I am not a locker, so with time, like about 2 minutes, he escaped. He tried to get an arm bar and I rolled into it. At this point my elbows could've been flying but he did something cool with his legs and streched me and made me tap.

We played again on the ground. This time I trapped his arms and simulated striking. Switched traps, more simulated striking. I felt him getting frustrated and in his defense he wasn't expecting that so we went back to just grappling and he made me tap.


Than we did MMA rules starting from standind and seperate corners. I played first with a Hung Gar guy (if you read the post you saw the teacher said he didn't want to fight because I was bigger than him, but then offers his 300lbs student to me). He tried to shoot (they actually fight nothing like hung gar and are MMA already, taking a tai stance and shooting) and could not, me capturing his head. They didn't want to play full, so I had to hold my knees.

Than the BJJ guy who won graplers quest. Popped his face at will pretty much, opened up his lip. He shot a few times. Most of the times I just captured his head and he'd still keep coming so I'd push him out. One time it bothered me that he didn't see, so I captured his head and simulated no less than 5 knees to his unprotected face, but he still kept trying .... that was the one exchange he got me down and eventurally made me tap.

All in all, I feel very good about the exchanges. I would face any of the men from that day in full contact NHB fighting. The last take down and submit happened because I was committed to throwing the knees but yet could not land them, so I'm in a bad position.

This only makes my point more clear. These guys like to grab you but don't want to eat a full elbow or knee to the face. I woke up early, drove into the city and sat around for an hour for these guys so I figured what the hell. Even being submitted though, I thinkI did pretty well. This is a guy who just won advanced no gi Grapplers quest. I hung in there playing his game.

I only post this here because I don't think they haunt these joints and I don't want to offend. If they do disagree, I have video.

And MasterKiller, it's funny how you quote me giving him face, but don't quote him saying, "I was blocking his punches with my face .... and I was the only one who was bleeding."

You ask for "evidence." We are martial artists here. I'm not talking smack. I get back from a surf trip and my boys ask how was it, and I say, "Ay, about 6 to 8 feet with some funny wind but it was staying open." Because they surf, they can visualize what it was already .... they know.

I post the throwdown was fun, but not what I was expecting and noone got hurt .... to me, a fighter, that = nothing but joking around. Who wants to see video of that. Quite useless already.

[Ray Pina]

MP, I would be honored. I like you, you're a smart guy. Obviously educated and trained.

Let me know when you're coming. In fact, if you're doing an NYC trip or conmsidering one, I have a great date for you:

[red5angel]

LOL! So a bullshido throwdown is apparently about grappling and a little bit of striking? All simulated?

[MasterKiller]

And MasterKiller, it's funny how you quote me giving him face, but don't quote him saying, "I was blocking his punches with my face .... and I was the only one who was bleeding." I used that quote because it was directly related to my question about your super secret shoot defense. It's not "funny" that I used it. It served my purpose. Busted lips aside, if you hit the ground, you hit the ground. That's what I was curious about.

Of course I know playing light is a different game. That's why I asked.

[Ray Pina]

"Secret" defense or not, when I fight, sometimes I hit the ground sometimes I don't. Sometimes I hit the ground and get back up. Sometimes I hit the ground, get back up, and then there I am on the ground again only to get back up. Sometimes I tap.

Who knows how it will go?

[Ray Pina]

Just invested in a camera and a computer ..... it wasn't cheap and I'm not rich.

I intend for these matches to be full contact no gear .... in other words, we'll be going very hard. In other words, intend to win. And if that's the case $500 is nothing.

The reason I've adopted this policy is because there are lots of people who want to play patty-cake and later claim this or that. Make it serious and make it worth something. This cuts right to the chase.*


*(mouth pieces and cups are acceptable gear)

[red5angel]

sounds fair to me, I think you're going to be hard pressed to find takers for 500$ but otherwise a solid idea.

[MasterKiller]

I dunno. It just sounds like BS to me. You often say you'll fight anyone anywhere, and are constantly asking for peope here to step up. But then you throw in this $500-with-no-gloves thing like you're some professional Street Fighter.

I'm sure you're serious about it. But what gives? Either you'll play with anyone or you won't. To me, it really just sounds like a cop out. It almost reads like a mini-version of Ashida Kim's challenge.

If you're that serious about being a fighter and you're obviously confident in your abilities, I would think you'd welcome any fight, anytime, just for the experience.

[Ray Pina]

You see MasterKiller, everything is relative.

It's easy for you to say from the safety of your computer. But it's me who's putting my health on the line. It's me who can get the busted nose, coller bone, arm quite easily .... then what?

The $500 is an insurance policy for me. You see, there's a million guys like you who get real agressive in their speech on the internet and point the finger and have a million things to say .... I'm not worried about you. You never show up.

It's your friend's friend who has trained something. Or your big bouncer friend who's tough as $hit. That's who I'm worried about. How many real tough fights does one have in him? How much of this can I afford? I don't know. But $500 makes it worth my time and their's too see and I get to compile footage. It makes it more serious, something to consider before saying, "Come on down."

Of course, I'm tempermental enough to say to someone like you who is insulting me in a round-about-way (even with the safety of the web) that we can fight at the most convenient time for both of us for free ...... but we tried that already didn't we?

This type of thing is not for you. Don't worry about it.

[MasterKiller]

but we tried that already didn't we? Did we? I remember you flying to Houston and wanting to play, then getting mad when I wouldn't drive 8 hours to accomodate you. If that was a fight challenge, then I guess it went over my head.


But it's me who's putting my health on the line. It's me who can get the busted nose, coller bone, arm quite easily .... then what? But it's also you who keeps throwing out the hook. How many times have you ASKED people to step up? That's what I'm getting at. You ask for it, then add the *. It just seems contradictory.

All I'm saying is, the guys on here who fight all the time, and who have the most skill like MP and 7* never attach these kinds of disclaimers. If they want a full contact fight they get into the ring and they've got one, for less than $500 I might add.

You've already stated you are 18 months from making a big splash in the ring and won't fight in the ring until then. So what gives with the open internet challenge?

If people are openly challenging you, I could understand you saying, OK, I'll settle it, but with these terms. But, from my end, it looks like you are the one opening the can. Doesn't make sense to me.


I'm not worried about you. You never show up. More power to you, Ray. I just don't buy it.


This type of thing is not for you. Don't worry about it. Guess I'm just not hardcore like you.

But then again, no one else here has stepped up to meet the Ray Pina $500 challenge, so maybe I'm not the oddball here.

[Ray Pina]

Please understand this MasterKiller, my requirements are to save everyone time.

I just went to a "Throwdown" and nobody wanted to do full contact. Or someone says they want to cross hands, but then no this or no that. That's fine. That's their thing and I went on my own.

If some guys are getting together and playing under certain rules you have to play their game ..... I've been doing that for sometime now. Now I'm setting up a situation where I can play under conditions that favor my style of fighting. That's all. It's no big deal.

As for training, what you do with your training partners is your business. Good luck.

[red5angel]

Ray, MK has some good points. In the history of the arts ,there has been a lot of fighting for the sake of fighting without the need for money. I think if you make it clear you want to fight, set some basic ground rules and see who comes your way. You're not going to get many people who want to go for 500$. Hell, I like to fight but not for 500$ I don't train enough to put that much money on the line. If you do then you probably need to start looking at more official venues where a little money can be made.

It just seems weird to some people cause you're itching to fight and prove yourself, or atleast challenge yourself but you set up some pretty hefty roadblocks. There's the whole issue of fighting officially, you can't for reasons you're teacher has laid down. You'll fight someone in a free for all NHB style match but only if they put up 500$, something you're probably more apt to find if you hunt hard enough in your part of the country. I think it throws people cause you seem to want to really get in and do it but some of your qualifiers are pretty high.

[WanderingMonk]

Ray,

Your goal to sharpen up your skills before bring your art out in the open is admirable. except, I don't think your approach will be the most efficient way of achieving your goal.

You will get some takers and you'll be able to really test out some of your skills. but, how many of them can you realistically expect? 5? 10? over a year time?

If you join a MMA/san da circuit, you'll have some assurance on how many time you can fight a fully resisting opponent.

[Mutant]

Ray, first off, no disrespect, you try to keep it real for CMA and aren't afraid to throw down and i respect that, and i think you have good intentions. I just want to comment on youre open challenge and lack of format or rules. If it works out for you than cool, and i hope it does.

I have a few issues to bring up, which may relate to why nobody has taken you up on your challenge...
If youre serious about embarking on a successful long-term fight career, you may want to rethink your format for issuing challenge fights. Personally under your requirements, I doubt you'll get many (if any) takers. If you do, I think you will only get crazies or shady fighters who you'd have to worry about using extra-dirty tactics. Then you'd have to ask yourself if youre willing to put your life on the line for some fight experience or street cred. I don't care how skilled or unskilled someone is; if they were going to fight under your (lack of) rules, not knowing the person and not having a good ref or format, you'd have to be willing to seriously maim or possibly kill each other and anything less would be underestimating them or just luck. Even if you win, they may get p1ssed off and decide to knife you. Or what if somebody sees it as an invitation to show up knowing you have $500 on you and no cops around, shoot you, and walk away with easy money. You don't know what kind of psycho youre going to run into... Under those rules, I would try to take somebody the f#ck out, or not get into it at all. And thats just not worth it for most people that have jobs, family, aspirations to be in good health for real competitions, and who worry about getting sued or prosecuted. This isnt ancient China and a lot of people don't understand or respect any kind of martial code.

I understand your frustration and attempt to level the playing field for your game, and it is true that there are a lot of one-trick-pony grapplers out there who don't want to acknowlege or face how much it changes their perceived dominance when they take real shots and find someone harder to take down than their used to... but the end result i believe is that you'll get less useful experience, that will have little relevance to MMA format, which is your stated goal anyway (i think)... Because decent up and coming MMA fighters who may want to try you out probably won't fight under those rules anyway. They want to stay healthy and train. If i was going to fight with no rules, i'd at least want a good ref and medics around, anything else is a streetfight, against someone better trained than youre likely to encounter in an actual street fight. Maybe you'll get a Kimbo Slice or someone more skilled and dangerous and you'll both end up in the hospital (or possibly worse if they pull out a razor or don't respect a tap) and then where is your fight career? You may be unable to train if you sustain serious injuries which can set back your real progress and ring career. It sucks missing potential training time or a ring fight because of injuries, I certainly know about that... And you'd get much better quality people if you agree to MMA rules and gear, because most others probably won't want to risk ruining their career or training either, and the few who do will likely be turned off buy putting up 500 bucks in a situation that sounds like a possible ambush. Plus you'll get used to winning using the format and gear that you'd be fighting with in the future anyway. MMA gloves arent that restrictive, and do you really want to get hit full blast with bare knuckles and elbows by a trained fighter, or risk busting your own hand? Even good fighters are going to take hits...

Unless you are just doing it this way to gain notoriety or reputation and not counting on having any real takers, than thats a whole other issue... :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Sorry to be blunt, but this is a really stupid thread.....

You want to train with partners and do a lot of sparring, join a school that spars. This isn't a mystery kids. It isn't hard to figure out...

This talk of no gloves and $500 smacks of the fluff and smoke BS that we make so much fun of

sorry, but that's the way I see it....

[Mutant]

Besides Ray, you only made it through a round and a half of your only sanctioned ring fight, what makes you think youre going make it through a fight with no rounds, refs or rules? Better to save it for the gym. :cool:

[lkfmdc]

sounds a lot like what we did back in Dave's TCMA class in the 80's - I recall we went at it pretty hard, no pads, just about anything goes, and we were really trying to hit each other, hard (with love, of course) - I remember learning how to deal with and become very comfortable using knees and elbows, and how to work from long range to the floor very fluidly



It's fun that guys like Chris are still around to remember stuff like that :D

That training "worked" because we had 10 dedicated guys in a room every weekend for several hours at a shot. Strangely, it was always TEN, we never got the group larger than that. Some might leave to be replaced by others, always bringing the group back to TEN...

But that was exactly my point, what Mr Pina needs to do is find a school like this, NOT have $500 bare knuckle challenges :rolleyes:

[Elliott_Hall]

This needs to be made clear because the confusion is starting again -

David Bond Chan's E-chuan is not the same thing as Wang XiangZhai's Yiquan/i-chuan.

[Mutant]

- I recall we went at it pretty hard, no pads, just about anything goes, and we were really trying to hit each other, hard (with love, of course) -

And I wasnt suggesting that you NEED tons of gear to practice kung fu and go at it real hard (although good gear can sure be nice:-) , in fact i think its important to practice without gear too. My point was just that going NO GEAR, FULL OUT, with someone you DON'T know or have a level of understanding with, in an unknown situation with a possible loose-cannon who's fighting for 500 smackers, things could get real UGLY real quick.

Of course do what you want and good luck with it. There just seems to be an illogical descrepency between your goal and your best method of reaching it. :confused:

[Elliott_Hall]

really? please elaborate, or provide extant link for same...

http://www.chan-internal-martial-arts.com/echuan.html

States that the style is Chan's own, and makes no association with Yiquan or Wang XiangZhai.

http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/431/620.html

A conversation with one of his students pointing out its not the same thing; the Chinese character may sound the same but in Bond Chan's it means 'Change' whereas in Yiquan it means 'intent' or 'mind'.

http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/21/587.html

Another thread on that topic.

Beyond that determination, confirmed in private email, I don't know anything else about E-chuan, and frankly I don't care.

[Ray Pina]

What's the money for? It's my insurance policy. If 15 guys all e-mail me today that they want to fight on Sat. .... how do I fight them all? I tell 3 no, now I'm running from them. But if I tell all 10, well, $500 down, I just limited it to the guys who know inside they can win ..... these are the fights I want.

MP already stated he wanted to play and for no money. What was my response? I'd be honored. And if he wanted to wear MMA gloves .... I would hand them to him politely with a bow. As a martial artist, how can I say no to another sincere martial artist .... which he is. Simon also asked the same, he received the same response.

Anyone in NYC who wants to play or has sudents who want to play, I'm definitely interested. I'll wear MMA gloves, I'll wear boxing gloves. I just ask that the format remain free, meaning no rounds, and no head gear. We go until it's done, someone taps, etc.

This is my last post on this subject.

[Knifefighter]

Ray:

Each side puts up $500, winner takes all. Winner determined by knock out, or inability to continue.

Anything disallowed like biting? Any weight restrictions? Let me know the particulars.

I’m not in NY, but I’ve got a couple of possible takers for you.

[PezFu]

hell, if you're ever in portland, oregon i'll take you up on that offer. sounds like fun to me.