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View Full Version : "Modified" Wing chun: Does it work on the street?



curious
07-05-2000, 07:13 PM
Some people claim that it is an improvement over the traditional style. But it seems like the traditional method has everything that the "modified" version has, plus a lot more. The blocks of the "modified " version also seem to be easy to penetrate. Any thoughts on this?

flavour54
07-05-2000, 07:35 PM
I love this place.

Buhma
07-05-2000, 09:11 PM
Well, I can't comment on the "modified" or "traditional" Wing Chun... I'm not sure what version of Wing Chun I learn... but I do know enough to say that Wing Chun is a personal art. You get what you put in... For instance, I use what I have learned with my own flavor..
I was taught the ASP (Absolute Starting Point) of Wing Chun but my instructor says this is just the general guideline... my WC will be different than his (he outweighs me by 60 lbs) and will be different than anyone elses for that matter....
I guess both types of WC would be great for the street....depending on how you are able to use those techniques with your own body.
I'm sure Yip Man's personal style was very different than Wong Shung Leung's or William Cheung's etc....

then again I could be wrong....nah /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sharky
07-05-2000, 11:40 PM
SHUT THE **** UP ****

Sharky
07-05-2000, 11:42 PM
SHUT IT TART

Sandman2[Wing Chun]
07-05-2000, 11:47 PM
curious:
In case you couldn't tell, talking about the usefullness of "traditional" vs. "modified" Wing chun is kinda opening an icky can of worms for some....
Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]

07-06-2000, 12:15 AM
Sharky,

Maybe a little more work is in order before you try out for your school's debate team, eh?

------------------
Peace.
Reverend Tim

Red Adder
07-06-2000, 12:27 AM
On the other hand,I think Sharky's comedy act is just about perfect.

07-06-2000, 02:55 AM
As soon as we can ween him off the word, "tart," I figure he's ready to headline.

------------------
Peace.
Reverend Tim

SifuAbel
07-06-2000, 03:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ReverendTim:
As soon as we can ween him off the word, "tart," I figure he's ready to headline.
[/quote]

Sorry Padre,

He is a brit. Words like tart , burke, nancy boy, twit, ninnie, ****er, and the like are ingrained. He must be about,I'd say, 7 or 8 years old.

Arioch7
07-06-2000, 04:31 AM
LOL! Wow, he is so funny.

SHOCKING too!! I almost had to run away from my moniter... it must be great sitting in front of your computer (Probably doing things I wont mention.) making up those zingers that showcase your brilliant wit.

Tim, you ought to let him on the show! He could be the "Dumbed-down" version of Beavis and ********! Sharky, do you have a stupid giggle too?

Oh oh, I just thought of something... dont you have to be over 21 to get in the place? Oh well, I was trying to give you a shot of fame kid.

BTW, you obviously have no clue as to what Karma means do you? Dont worry, you will. Trust me on this one.

Wongsifu
07-06-2000, 12:20 PM
On the matter of the original post /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif which we forgot about
From my experience with what i have seen with wing chun and practised, without meaning to put anyone down, just how i see it.
Any one i have seen from yip mans lineage is not that good compared to the other wing chun guys. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The two main splittings marketing wise i have seen under Yip mans lineage, is william cheung and Leung ting

Leung ting claims to be modified but has all the traditional sort of cat stance etc etc and william cheung who claims to be traditional has stances like side neutral and stuff like that, IMHO they got it confused. But form what i have seen william cheungs method is better I hate to say this but from the tapes and demos of leung ting they are really crappy, his footwork lacks the word foot work basically it was like blah ****e. William cheung talks a lot of **** but his style is better synthesized for example he doesnt really say use a tan sau vs a swinging punch whereas leung tings style does, i think if you got swung at from a 400 pound fat guy and you tried the tan sao you would be smacked in the head. Also william cheung works all this blind side open side footwork etc.

However if you want real wing chun yip mans lineage is a no no , reason is that no one learned the whole thing, when i was reading how he taught his students there were some blokes who learnt say the pole the wooden dummy and the siu lum tao , others learnt chum kiu biu jee and and the pole so no one learned the whole thing, also what ive noticed is that william lacks true internal i have seen his inch punch and its good but its not internal the way chens fa jing is , its more external like tyson is.

The best wing chun moves i had seen was in a film during the training scenes, the film is called warriors two and if you like real wing chun get it it will change you whole view on wing chun , and how the blocks are used etc.

MoQ
07-06-2000, 12:36 PM
I think terms like "traditional" and "modified" are lost on Wing Chun since it appears that the tradition is to modify it.

This movie, Warriors Two, is the sequel to Prodigal Son, a classic Wing Chun flick. The sequel is about Leung Jan as the older respected Sifu and the Wing Chun stuff is very fun to watch. It's interesting to compare the "type of movement" as presented here with the way "modern" WC people move.

Sharky
07-06-2000, 05:24 PM
HeHEHeeHeEHeEHeHEEehehehEHeHEEHeEHheEHeheEHe

etc

Sihing73
07-06-2000, 08:07 PM
Wongsifu,

Out of curiousity have you ever actually trained or met anyone from either Leung Ting or William Cheungs lineage or are you just relying on second and thirdhand information?

You are correct in stating that these are the two main "commercial" offshoots from Yip Man. Still, there are many others, Wong Sheung Long, Augustine Fong (Through Ho Kam Ming), Duncan Leung, Hawkins Cheung etc. I would gather from your post that you do not thik any of these is worth looking into since Yip Mans style is a "no no". Seems to me like many of them have done quite well with the "limited" version of Wing Chun they were taught. But then again, maybe all the encouters involving these stylists and their students were against equally unschooled attackers /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Your assesment of William Cheung not using a Taun Sau against a roundhouse type punch is incorrect. I have had the privilege of studying both Leung Ting and William Cheungs systems. In both I was taught the use of Taun against a roundhouse. However, there is a difference in that Williams versions seems to stick closer to the idea of a Taun being used to "disperse" the attack while Leung Tings strives to be softer and flow around the attack accepting the force and taking a slightly different shape. Although to be fair, Wing Chun stresses attack and sometimes you would not use this technique as you would be reaching for the attack and instead you will simply attack. Following the theory that a circular attack takes longer to complete than a straight line attack, hence your strike reaches him prior to the completion of his round attack.

I feel that Williams style does have a little more variety in his footwork and many of his applications seem to be more subtle than some others. Still, there is a lot to be said for the one performing as to an arts effectiveness.

I would also be curious as to what other versions of Wing Chun you have been exposed to, since you seem to discount all of Yip Mans people. Unless you have had the opportunity to train in another version Yip Man Wing Chun is all you would most likely have the chance to study as it is the most popular. Yip Man was the first to truly open his doors to the public and teach Wing Chun to the masses. There is speculation that Yip Man himself did not learn the complete Wing Chun system as well, but he shared training with some very well respected Wing Chun people of other lineages most notably Yuen Kay.

As to the movies showing true Wing Chun; I guess it all depends on whether you think you can learn this style from videos. Movies are nice and very enjoyable, and I like watching them as much as the next guy. Still, I have been able to maintain the knowledge that what I see in a movie is not always real. Remember, they follow a script and the good guy usually wins no matter what style he does.

I would be interested in learning your response as well as if you study Wing Chun and if so from who. To say that one lineage has nothing to offer seems rather shortsighted to me. Unless you have direct knowledge of something you should refrain from making judegments. I know for a fact that you have never met me nor any of my classmates or you would have a slightly different take on Yip Man Wing Chun /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Peace,

Dave

Buhma
07-06-2000, 09:22 PM
I beg to differ Wongsifu...
I am from Yip man's lineage.... but not from William Cheung or Leung Ting...there are other's you know....and although I am not a high level practitioner, I do feel many from his (Yip Man) linneage are just as good as any other....

I know you are probably talking from personal experience....but to make a blanket statement from just a few encounters is just as wrong as whites saying all "*****s" are yellow screaming monkeys... well you get the idea /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Buhma (edited 07-07-2000).]

laughing tiger
07-07-2000, 03:12 AM
Is anyone familiar with "Lau Kun Do"? There is a school in Long Beach, Calif. run by Richard Tsim (hope I spelled his name correctly)..I take it as being a modified Wing Chun style. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks :-)

mantis boxer
07-07-2000, 04:17 AM
There is nothing wrong with traditional wing chun. The only reason people " modify" it is because they can't do it right the traditional way. Then they change things and start that whole Bruce Lee " classical mess" blah blah etc..

Arioch7
07-07-2000, 05:24 AM
Buhma, how about Screaming White Devils?

Ok, I have not been introduced to Wing Chun formally. I have watched Wing Chun fighters and I have seen literature on the subject. I have to say that I have been extremely impressed with the art. I am also a fan of Bruce Lee, but I also feel that he was arrogant and although he had a brilliant mind, he was quite short sighted at times.

I have Bruce's books and I can honestly say that the virtues expounded in his core books are present in most of the systems that he has bad-mouthed.

All I am saying is that the arguments that I have personally read in the mags and current literature seem petty and irrelevant. If I had to do it over and take another striking art, it would be Wing Tsun. Hell, I dont need to because there is a large Boston community here and we can train in the future. Rev. Tim is a little ahead of me though. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Wongsifu
07-07-2000, 12:43 PM
sihing 73 , I didnt want to come across as saying that everyone from yip mans lineage is cruddy its just that I havent been as impressed as with other styles,
Ex if I take hung gar and I look at wing lam I think Good. If I look at Frank Yee I think Wow, If I look at Chiu Chi ling I drool /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif LOL

Anyhow My statement actually came across wrongly and It was meant more like too many bad eggs give off a bad smell and you dont know where it comes from any more. I must admit I have seen other wing chun guys through articles, the net etc which I thought they are good, I cant remember names,Augustine fong Duncan Leung does spring to mind. But I always feel that wing chun lacks something, Kind of like tai chi without the rooting, or hung gar without the forearm and finger training. Its not the guys its like wing chun is missing stuff i cant really put my finger on. When I watched warriors two a lot of this was cleared up , Like all the different angles you could rotate your palm for the attacks or how good the footwork can actually be. About attacking above and below simultaneously about using inch punch and setting up your moves. I especially liked his application of tan sau where he tottaly moves out of the way of the attack and uses the tan to control the arm as opposed to a block.

I will give you one of my biggest problems I faced with wing chun and why i say it lacks. I said earlier that William Cheungs lineage has got better footwork, the thing is though its only in 2 directions, back and forth. Look at another martial art the have up down left right back and forth.
When I see ppl spar from my old school sometimes all i see is 2 ppl going back and forth back and forth /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Never side to side. Whereas the whole concept of WC is avoid force and redirect, I never see WC players move out the way. I mean William Cheungs footwork is good in the blind side open side concept but how many times have you seen people step in while someone is attacking ? Most times people step back block then step in.

As for the wing chun I have pracitsed,etc. I did study mainly under a student of william cheung,4 years ish i think. I never came across the tan sau as a block against round house though .. thats why i said it but we didnt really follow the syllabus tottaly I mean I weas meant to be doing some single hand blindfolded chi sao that never materialised /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif My sifu was kypros andreou he is in the back of WC book my life with wing cun

As for leung ting lineage I saw his tape and I met someone who had practised it and we exchanged a few pointers. I know its not fair to judge by looking at such a small amount but I was really dissapointed I thought yeesh this is BAD.

I also practised some other lineage I cant remember who though I keep thinking it was austin goh but I dont think so. This lineage was quite traditioal.

Sihing73
07-07-2000, 05:34 PM
Hi Wongsifu,

Thanks for the reply. It is easy to mistake things in this medium and sometimes we are all gulty of jumping to the wrong conclusion.

I can fully understand where you are coming from. I have been doing Wing Chun for a number of years and often found myself thinking that there was somehting missing. All I can say is that the more I explored Wing Chun the more "I" found Wing Chun has everything I need. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The Taun Sau is an interesting technique and if you explore the concept you will find that although many tranlsate Taun Sau as "Palm Up Arm" it actually means "Dispersing Arm". Although it is difficult to explain in this medium, I think that the way William does it is closer to the idea of dispersing. The Taun kind of takes the attack and can even "lay" on it and move it out of the way, still using the opponenets force though. The direction can be directly off of your shoulder and your hands can be wider apart than in some other systems. When done in this way it has the advantage of opening uop your opponent more while still allowing you to keep control and protect your center.

As to teh footwork not having any other directions except front and back; All I can say in this is too often all people associate with Wing Chun. Still, I was taught to side step and attack from angles in just about every system I have been exposed to. You are correct in stating that Wing Chun does not rely on force and should learn to use the energy given by the opponent. I think the problem sometimes is that people start teaching before they truly understand what they are doing and why. This is not a criticism of those teaching because one must examine the motives as well. For example, I have run across guys teaching who really should not be but they were the only ones doing Wing Chun for hundreds of miles and they needed training partners, or they just had such a thirst for the art the needed to do somehting. Then there are those pressured into teaching by the MCDojos /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I used to feel some of the way you do. What I mean is I would make a judgement of a system or lineage based on who I met from that lineage. But, I have come to realize that this is not fair unless I have the opportunity to train with more than one person and with different levels. I find that I, at least, need to check out a better cross section before making a decision. I have also come to realize that my opinion is just that, an opinion. Just because I do things a different way does not make me right or wrong. Wing Chun is a highly personal art and all of us get what we put into it, or any art for that matter.

In any event thanks for clearing up a few things. A bad smell is never desirable, just ask my wife as she says my feet stink /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Still, as we learn more about each other we can all grow more and put aside petty judgements in order to explore some of the deeper aspects of martial arts. This medium makes it a little difficult to explain things clearly at times, but also allows us to communicate with some sources we otherwise could never reach.

Peace,

Dave

WT
07-07-2000, 06:40 PM
What You see in the Hong Kong movies is stage combat performed by actors and stuntmen.
Not much do do with the real thing.

Use a punch to stop a roundhouse,not a tan sao.

William Cheung's footwork didn't save him
against Emin Boztepe.

Sharky
07-07-2000, 07:32 PM
what about turning your body for a double tan sau. i feel pretty confident that when applied properly, it can stop a very hefty punch

wibble

Edd

Sharky
07-07-2000, 07:35 PM
although, if it were a roundhouse, i wouldn't even try blocking it unless totally forced to - the best thing to do is move out of the way, or indeed close in asap with a flurry of chain punches - or as i did once in one of my first lessons (by accident) close in then push the dude over

wibble

Edd

Sihing73
07-07-2000, 09:46 PM
Hello WT,

I see from your profile that you most likley do Leung Tings system. Now I have a question for you:

Are you saying that in WT you are taught NOT to use a Taun Sau against a round punch?

Think carefully before replying as your answer will show your level of skill /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Feel free to see my above post if you want to know my position. I will say that one should never reach for the attack but instead hit the nearest target. Still, the Taun will work quite well against a roundhouse if done properly. Oh, before you answer you may want to look at Tings books and ask you Sihing.

As to the foot work of William Cheung not saving him from Emin; I prefer to leave that area alone but will say that Emin did not intend to take him to the ground and once on the ground neither really displayed any groundfighting skill. You can call me on this if you want, one of my Sihings was there and I know Emin, having trained with him in Germany. remember also the difference in ages at the time.

BTW, for what it's worth, I know this will upset some /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, Emin is not the best fighter from the WT camp. He is just the most public. How many WT fighters can you name? Then think about how many of William Cheungs students hold world records and championship titles. Do the math, William must be doing something right when he teaches his people how to fight. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am no longer affiliated with WT and I know I sound like I am bashing them, I am not. I am just tired of listening to some people dredge up the past. Especially when it is an incident that did nothing but hurt the name of Wing Chun. William Cheung fought in his youth in much more serious encounters than the one with Emin. He was held in high regard by the Late Bruce Lee. Seems to me he must be doing something right. But then again, what do I know? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Peace,

Dave

ATENG
07-08-2000, 10:04 AM
Hey Sihing

Just out of curiosity, who are some of the best WT fighters? They from Germany or from HK? I know there have been some HK WT fighters who did well in tournaments. But as to the ones in Germany, I haven't heard much about. You can email me if you'd like. I was taught to use a jum sau/punch with footwork against a roundhouse.

WT
Where do you train WT at? and how long?

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Its all fun and games til someone loses an eye. Then its just fun.

mantis boxer
07-08-2000, 12:47 PM
Against a roundhouse punch it is best to use the circular step and outside block n punch. This is demonstrated in Wong Shun Leung's tape. When you use the circular step this minimizes the bounce that your outside block has to take.

jojitsu27
07-08-2000, 02:47 PM
Folks,
I think MoQ truly said it best,"I think terms like "traditional" and "modified" are lost on Wing Chun since it appears that the tradition is to modify it."
Those are the words of a man who understands the essence of Wing Chun.
Alot of JKD people don't like to hear me say it, but I like to tell them that JKD IS Wing Chun, Bruce Lee's modified Wing Chun that is.
WHO cares if Willy Cheung likes to claim he learned the "traditional" Wing Chun secretly from Yip Man? I think his fight against Emin showed us that no matter what your Wing Chun style is you must modify it to learn ground technique or all the other technique, no matter how traditional or modified, is going to be useless when that time comes that you are on the ground.
This topic of Modified vs. Traditional Wing Chun has been argued to death on other forums and probably on this one, so I have only one thing to say. MoQ said it all with,"I think terms like "traditional" and "modified" are lost on Wing Chun since it appears that the tradition is to modify it."
-jojitsu27

ps: no matter what master says what in what book, I have found in actual streetfights and NHB type competition that the Biu Sau works wonders against a hook punch.
I like to Biu Sau the hook punch and either start into a straight blast or sometimes go right over the offending arm and put it into a standing armbar.....I like breaking elbows lol!

[This message has been edited by jojitsu27 (edited 07-09-2000).]

flavour54
07-08-2000, 07:43 PM
WongSifu, I have William Chueng as my Sigung and we use Tan Sau against round punches all the time.At the correct angle or flatter nothing can get through it.And yes we do sidestedp all the time. I suggest to you that you have been mislead.

[This message has been edited by flavour54 (edited 07-09-2000).]

Wongsifu
07-09-2000, 02:15 PM
Flavour 54 interesting, what level was this at in our system under Willy we have 10 levels each comprising of 3 grades I think in my 4yrs or so I got to level 5 grd 1 and I did not come across it is this how your syllabus is roughly.

Sihing good post Thumbs up, as to the tan sau being dispersing this is exactly how it was portrayed in warriors two, he actually called it a spread hit where he moves tottally out of the way one hand punches and the other hand controls.

A question On using the waist and wing chun coordination of upper and lower body parts

During my wing chun training we were always taught how to use arms and legs, however never at the same time even though I read in an old book that this is very common in Wing chun Ie bong sau punch and a low side kick to the knee, how many practise this ?
The body however was taught to be able to move well ie pak sau switching lapsau punch. However We were never ever ever taught to use the waist.
A few years later and a few martial arts later ever single one i tried Aikido jujitsu karate hung gar and tai chi all said the same thing The waist moves first the arms follow. Eg in taichi this is especially the case, in jujitsu all throws come from the waist.
In wing chun however this was never the case and i felt this was a big gap. When i Saw Warriors 2 however the tan sau actually came from the waist so did quite a few moves Ie pak sau huen sau change sides and punch ( the change sides and punch was all performed by a waist rotation.
Do any of you practise this in wing chun, I mean really pay attention to the waisy as much as say the blocks etc ?

laughing tiger
07-09-2000, 02:21 PM
LOL...."Mc Dojo".... great term! :-)

07-09-2000, 04:48 PM
Hmmmm...

In my wing chun lineage, we use the waist PLENTY and also use the taun sau as a dispersing block. Never do we use it as a force on force technique like some sort of karate block. It's almost always a controlling kind of technique. Our footwork is very mobile as well, and we're definitely known to switch sides on ya...

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Peace.
Reverend Tim

Sharky
07-09-2000, 04:54 PM
same here rev

Wongsifu
07-09-2000, 06:18 PM
sharky and rev nice what lineage do you practise ? And more to the point why do I always get the duff teachers ??
LOL

07-09-2000, 06:50 PM
I study Gulao/Pien San wing chun in Cambridge, Mass.

Henry Mui --> Stanley Jue --> Me.

I was gonna go to my first tournament in August so I could finally get a taste of some Yip Man wing chun, but I had to reschedule some gigs to open for Earth, Wind, and Fire this weekend, so now I'm not gonna be able to go. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

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Peace.
Reverend Tim

Highlander
07-09-2000, 07:44 PM
Wongsifu ....... Much of what you have mentioned is taught in the dummy form. As you work around the dummy and side to side you are learning the angular attacks you mentioned. Also, combinations of hands and kicks are also in the Dummy form (Taun Sau/low palm/knee kick). As far as the twisting, yes, we are taught this also, but the twist starts with the knee, not the waist, and the punch is at the end of the movement like the tip of a whip. The twisting is used in combination with other things like the elbow to generate power, but it is not always used. This twisting is intoduced in Chum Kui and used a lot in the dummy. It is possible that the examples you saw were either at a lower level, or just hadn't incorporated the higher level techniques into their fighting yet.

Sharky
07-09-2000, 09:54 PM
Yip man /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Sharky (edited 07-10-2000).]

Buhma
07-09-2000, 09:54 PM
Hmmmm, I've been taught from early on that never to stay on one line of attack/defense.
Also that there are different levels of generating power.
You can turn from your feet, knees, waist, shoulders etc....
Of course the higher up the body you go you lose power. It all depends on when and where to apply these movements.
Also, I've used taun sau and straight punch to defend against a hook... but I prefer a quan sau (spelling?) and a punch instead.. that way I can deflect and grab at the same time.. my punch sofens up my openent as I get in closer for a throw or something... hard to explain....

Also as a sidenote... at my school, my sihings and sifu always that if you want to know how to punch the wing chun way, look at a boxer. All the punches a boxer has is in wing chun... even hooks and uppercuts... I think there is a misconception about Wing Chun just having straight punches....

Buhma
07-09-2000, 10:03 PM
Hey Rev. Tim, let me know if you are ever gonna perform in So. California...

MoQ
07-10-2000, 12:14 AM
All these ideas are okay, except that they seem to be acted from the inside and a WC man doesn't really want to be there. The angulation in WC is the way it's all done and there's no "toe-to-toe" facing of the opponent. The gung fu forms are just "forms" and they must be broken up for action. I would suggest doubts about any teacher that doesn't teach from the forms just like I would caution against one accepting candy without a wrapper. Certain adaptations or modifications are almost expected but by modification I don't mean changing the "way" it's done or altering the "type of movement". WC was devised to be an art that could be applied with flexibility from a conceptual perspective.

With that in mind, do NOT punch like a western boxer. The power generation is entirely different. Do NOT jab and cross, bob and weave or any of that stuff. There is no need to add any tech that doesn't follow the principles of the Art. If you mix WC with other styles before you know the System, or if you make extreme alterations to the core principles... please don't call it Wing Chun Kung Fu. Have some respect.

Buhma
07-10-2000, 12:47 AM
Did I say anything about jabs or bobbing and weaving? No, I said that if you look at a western boxer and the way he generates power (from the toe all the way up his leg to his waist and shoulder to his elbow and fist) you will see that at the moment of impact, he is rooted. Just like a Wing Chun strike. I never said anything about Western Boxing TACTICS... I was specifically referring to WC punches. And if you cannot find all the same types of strikes in WC as any other art including western boxing... I am sorry you do not see it. Now to say that what I am learning is "modified" or "traditional" doesn't matter. As Jojitsu stated, Wing Chun by its very nature is always evolving and is a highly personal art... what works for me will not always work for you.

Also, if you study Wing Chun... do you not have hooks or uppercuts or even jabs? Just wondering....

07-10-2000, 01:00 AM
MoQ,

Just as a point of order, some lineages of wing chun don't teach The Forms™ at all, so your litmus test might falter a bit on that point.

After Leung Jan retired to Gulao, he didn't teach from the forms, and he certainly would have been a worthwhile person to learn from.

------------------
Peace.
Reverend Tim

MoQ
07-10-2000, 01:22 AM
Well, you both missed my point. Anyway, there ain't no Leung Jan's around NOW and I don't believe that story anyway. I simply said...oh well, you KNOW what I said, just didn't choose to hear it.

Western Boxing has no connection with TradWC in terms of power generation so what you descibe is not WC. All this stuff has been added recently, by Americans or by way of western influence no doubt, denoting a lack of deep understanding of the principles. Jab and hook? C'mon...

07-10-2000, 01:31 AM
MoQ,

I don't know anything about boxing strikes and wing chun, so I can't really speak to that, but I promise you that quite legitimate branches exist that don't teach the "standard" forms.

What do you think of the various branches that teach more or different forms than the "usual" (Yip Man) six?

------------------
Peace.
Reverend Tim

Buhma
07-10-2000, 01:42 AM
>All these ideas are okay, except that they seem to be acted from the >inside and a WC man doesn't really want to be there. The angulation in >WC is the way it's all done and there's no "toe-to-toe" facing of the
>opponent.

Biu Ji form...That is where the toe-toe comes in..
Also, why don't you want to fight inside?
If my oponent likes the inside, I will fight outside...
If he likes outside....guess where I'll be?
If he doesn't know the ground... guess where I will take him... and if he's Royce.. you bet I will try to stay on my feet...
One thing that most people didn't learn about BJJ is that if you take someone out of their element, they can't fight worth crapola.... See why now everyone is trying to be an all around fighter? So inside, outside, ground our standup... be where your oponent is weakest....

>The gung fu forms are just "forms" and they must be
>broken up for action. I would suggest doubts about any
>teacher that doesn't teach from the forms just like I
>would caution against one accepting candy without a
>wrapper.

As rev tim said... many WC people do not do forms...
Also the forms are just the alphabet..
not the whole art. They just teach you the letters... during a fight, that's when you form the words and sentences... not during a form. You are limiting Wing Chun by saying... a taun sau is only applied to this or this situation...
WC is about concepts... and how you apply those concepts.

>Certain adaptations or modifications are almost
>expected but by modification I don't mean changing the
>"way" it's done or altering the "type of movement". WC was
>devised to be an art that could be applied with
>flexibility from a conceptual perspective.

As long as you stay within the concepts & Laws of Wing Chun you are doing Wing Chun.

>With that in mind, do NOT punch like a western boxer. The
>power generation is entirely different.
>Do NOT jab and cross, bob and weave or any of that
>stuff. There is no need to add any tech that doesn't follow the
>principles of the Art. If you mix WC with other styles
>before you know the System, or if you make extreme
>alterations to the core principles... please don't call it Wing
>Chun Kung Fu. Have some respect.

We Jab. A jab is just a quick punch. we have a cross in Chum Kil form. The uppercut is even in the first form Sil Lim Tau.
Bob & weave in called Ton & tow in chinese. We have that in Bui Ji. All these things are in all of our forms. If you know the forms you will see all of these things.

Then again maybe I'm seeing things eh? heheheh **** drugs!!!!! :P

[This message has been edited by Buhma (edited 07-10-2000).]

MoQ
07-10-2000, 02:42 AM
I'm not trying to argue with you guys, just trying to protect the art from being overly modified... I was struggling with N. Shaolin when I found WC and fell in love! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BUT, I don't practice WC anymore and it's been many yrs., so I guess I just value the Classical for it's own sake... I was trippin' on the western boxing terminology, but I now remember the techs you're referring to, so forgive me...

I'll leave the future of the Art and the many variations with all it's mindful practitioners and hope for the best... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Buhma
07-10-2000, 03:28 AM
MoQ, I totally agree /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I wasn't trying to modify WC... just giving my interpretation of it. Believe me, I am just a beginner so I wouldn't know where to begin to "modify" anything.... I first have to learn the system before I can decide what needs any changing...
So far though, I have found all aspects of Wing Chun that suits me... from striking and trapping to throws...

I have high interest in learning BJJ, but maybe I just haven't progressed enough in WC to find the groundfighting aspect the art. I mean I saw the western boxing connection... why not groundfighting? There are only so many ways a human body can move....

Highlander
07-10-2000, 03:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buhma:
>We have a cross in Chum Kil form. The uppercut is even in the first form Sil Lim Tau.[/quote]

Where? I'm not disputing what you said, I'm just running the two forms through my head and I can't see it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Buhma
07-10-2000, 04:01 AM
Uppercut...
When you do the taun sau... make a fist....

Right or left cross...
When you are doing the 2nd form the part where you spin the first time with one arm crossed over the other (kinda looks like arms crossed in the show "I Dream of Genie" before she does her magic... sorry can't explain it any better than that....
Anyway, if you make a fist... and take one arm away... and pivot on your feet or waist.. cross punch or hook....

Sorry for the terrible terminology... I'm very bad at alot of the Chinese terminology... that's probably why I had trouble in Aikido also... all that aketegorisakiyaki sounded the same to me...

anyway... if you think about it Chum Kil also has the uppercut... and it is more apparent in the second form....

Sharky
07-10-2000, 11:27 PM
er, isn't the tan sau going out in a straight line, so it isn't an uppercut, as that's a circular move?

also, at my school we don't go into a fist, we circle our wrists, and our arm ends up in the position of a fat sau at the end, or even a biu sau (thrusting fingers), altho at another school i went to, we did indeed make a fist.....

Highlander
07-11-2000, 01:22 AM
Buhma,

Thanks for the explaination. I don't personnally agree with your interpretations, but I respect your right to them and I can see how they may be interpreted that way. But actually, I have to agree with Sharky. The purpose of the first form is to perfect structure and for a tan sao to become an uppercut, the structure, not just the hand, would have to be altered. I find the same to be true of the cross you mentioned. I believe for this to be a cross, power would have to be added from the shoulder. Again changing the structure. And as far as the drilling punch in the second form, it has been stressed to me many times that it drills forward, not upward like and uppercut. But then again like I said, I respect your opinion, (even though it may not sound like it. I don't feel like I'm communicating well today). As we all know, different schools are different, not right or wrong, just different. To me, the real strength of Wing Chun is it's unlimited interpretations and applications. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sharky,

While I agree with your comment about tan sao and an uppercut, Buhma's comment may have openned up another area (structure vs hand form). While it is true that the tan sao is taught with the hand open and the palm up, what is important is the structure of the arm and the movement of the elbow. These are the things that make it a tan sao motion, not the hand. In fact a lot of motions in the first form can be combined with a variety of hand forms to increase your arsonal. For example, you can use a leopards fist with a tan sao for a close range throat strike, or combine it with a bil sao. You can substitute a pheonix eye fist for a punch depending on the target, but the structure of the motion remains the same. Anyway, just food for thought. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sharky
07-11-2000, 01:46 AM
and the way that the number of applications are only limited by your imagination is what makes KF so great [cheesy line, soz]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Buhma
07-11-2000, 02:54 AM
Highlander,
I agree with you that first form is about teaching structure and rooting that is used as the building blocks for the later forms.
And it's great that it is there... but to ONLY do it like the forms will make Wing Chun so much kempo type movements... "in this situation you do this or this or this"
I was only stating that WC is about concepts. For example a taun sau can easily be turned into an uppercut... don't think that a taun sau has just one (or a few) application or has to be applied in only one fashion. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Besides, you are right... it is my personal interpreation and I, like everyone else, use WC as a highly personal art... at the beginning of this thread, I did say that Yip Man's WC was probably totally different than Wong Shun Leung's or william Cheungs or Leung Tings...etc....
We may be taught the basics in the forms, but I said that those forms (as well as the dummy and weapons) are just the alphabet... it's up to each person to create the words and sentences...
Just like everyone here knows how to read and write.. doesn't make them all literary geniuses... of corze I can bairley rite anyway http://216.219.234.88/forum/roundtable/tongue.gif

Sharkey, weren't you the one who said "shut up ****???"

Sharky
07-11-2000, 03:00 AM
no, that was my friend (who was on my pc) but i didn't think any1 would belive me/care

sorry - any1 who remembers me from a while back will know that, that isn't my style (speaking /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

Edd

Buhma
07-11-2000, 03:03 AM
I was just wondering, because your later posts were well thought out... a big contrast from your first posts... I'm new here so I wouldn't know what your style of posting is.

As for the taun sau only being used on a straight line... I disagree, it can be circular also. Just because the beginnings of WC is linear does not mean it doesn't have circular movements... isn't the third form all circular movements?

Also... do we not have circular steps? I have no knowledge of William Cheung's methods (someone said earlier they spar moving just back and forth) but we do use circular steps when sparring or during chi sau/chi gerk....


I agree that there are so many applications of kung fu and that does make it great... ****... I said the same cheesy line....


[This message has been edited by Buhma (edited 07-11-2000).]

Highlander
07-11-2000, 03:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buhma:
but to ONLY do it like the forms will make Wing Chun so much kempo type movements... "in this situation you do this or this or this"
I was only stating that WC is about concepts.
[/quote]

I agree completely. I wasn't advocating doing things strictly like the forms. I was saying that doing a circular Tan Sao violates the WC concept of the immoveable elbow line and the tan sao structure as I understand them. But I must also admit that, yes, the third form has circular motions and currently I have not reached the third form. If I'm not mistaken, I don't believe Sharky has either. So I think it is best for me to keep an open mind until then and to say it violates my current understanding of the WC concepts. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WT
07-13-2000, 12:15 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sihing73:
[B]Hello WT,

I see from your profile that you most likley do Leung Tings system. Now I have a question for you:

Are you saying that in WT you are taught NOT to use a Taun Sau against a round punch?

Think carefully before replying as your answer will show your level of skill /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Feel free to see my above post if you want to know my position. I will say that one should never reach for the attack but instead hit the nearest target. Still, the Taun will work quite well against a roundhouse if done properly. Oh, before you answer you may want to look at Tings books and ask you Sihing.


The way I have been taught we use a punch and a what they call a fook sao against a round house.
The fook sao is just to protect against what's left of the roundhouse.


As to the foot work of William Cheung not saving him from Emin; I prefer to leave that area alone but will say that Emin did not intend to take him to the ground and once on the ground neither really displayed any groundfighting skill.

You can call me on this if you want, one of my Sihings was there and I know Emin, having trained with him in Germany. remember also the difference in ages at the time.

When was that?

BTW, for what it's worth, I know this will upset some /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, Emin is not the best fighter from the WT camp. He is just the most public. How many WT fighters can you name? Then think about how many of William Cheungs students hold world records and championship titles. Do the math, William must be doing something right when he teaches his people how to fight. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

How do you hold a world record in WC?


I am no longer affiliated with WT and I know I sound like I am bashing them, I am not. I am just tired of listening to some people dredge up the past. Especially when it is an incident that did nothing but hurt the name of Wing Chun. William Cheung fought in his youth in much more serious encounters than the one with Emin. He was held in high regard by the Late Bruce Lee. Seems to me he must be doing something right. But then again, what do I know? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Well,I was in a bad mood when I wrote that post.I'm on vacation now so I don't have time for a long answer.
Have a nice summer.

WT

WT
07-13-2000, 12:22 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ATENG:
[B]Hey Sihing

Just out of curiosity, who are some of the best WT fighters? They from Germany or from HK? I know there have been some HK WT fighters who did well in tournaments. But as to the ones in Germany, I haven't heard much about. You can email me if you'd like. I was taught to use a jum sau/punch with footwork against a roundhouse.

WT
Where do you train WT at?

I train in Sweden.


and how long?

For nine years.
WT

Sihing73
07-13-2000, 04:28 AM
Hi WT,

As to the Taun against a Roundhouse punch:
First it is an example shown in the book "Dynamic Wing Tsun How to be an agressive fighter within Six Months" Second it is also trained in some of the paired drills started at about the second student level with the incorporation of the Stance Turning with Taun DA. Of course, it is not the only technique to be used against a roundhouse and in many case most of the training is done against a more straight type of punch. Still, it is there and is a viable technique. I think a punch and 'Fook Sau" is one option though I would probably opt for a punch and a Bui Tze or perhaps a Fak Sau instead. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I was in Germany from 85 to 86 and trained quite a bit as there were seminars all over the country. In many cases we had visitors attend from outside of the German area. During at least one of the seminars Emin was present and I had the opportunity to train with him. My problem, if you want to call it that, is not with Emins level or ability but with his demeanor. I feel he showed a lack of respect for several of his seniors in the system ie; Allan Fong and Yip Chun in particular. The sihing I am refering to who attended the "incident" was Klaus Hennrich.

Please reread my earlier post I do not believe I said anyone held a "world record in Wing Chun" what I said is that William Cheung has several students who hold World Records. To clarify this I am referring to such people as Rick Spain and Alf Debroco(sp?) who have competed in full contact competitions and won them. They competed against many other stylists and faired quite well. Several of them being Wordl Class with titles bestowed. Some of the William Cheung people could probably give more details.

I intend to enjoy my summer and I wish you a good one as well. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Like I said I am not trying to bash anyone I am just tired of this incident being brought up as I feel it was a disgrace and proved nothing. Afterwards both camps made differing statements and many "attempts" to arrange some sort of sanctioned event to settle things were proposed with nothing ever materializing. I left Wt due to the "political" climate and the animosity shown to some other lineage members. I am not knocking WT but I do not feel it is any better or worse than some others I have had the privilege to train with.

I also see you have trained WT for 9 years and would like to wish you well in your continuing journey. Technicaly I guess I would be your Sihing /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Only kidding don't get upset. LOL

Ateng,

I will only mention a few WT fighters of note. Some are from Germany and some from Hong Kong. I think that overall the German WT players are slightly better. I think it is due to the intensity which they bring to the training. Germans seem to be very focused and I have seen Sifu kernsprecht tell someone to lose 20 pounds and they did. With that type of committment it is hard to fail. Anyhow here are some names:
Milan Prosenica/Thomas Mannes/Michael Fries/ Slavko Truntic from the German organization and its affiliates.
Cheung Cheun Fun/Tam Hung Fun from Hong Kong. I would add Allan Fong as he went with Sijo Leung Ting to introduce the art to Germany and defended the art in several matches. Since he was picked to accompany Leung Ting to spread the art I think it fair to state his level was good. Of course I am prejudiced as he was my Sifu and I lived with him but hey no ones perfect /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In any event again this is not to take anything away from anyone only to show there are more than one person who could more than represent the art of WT.

Peace,

Dave

WT
07-13-2000, 05:37 AM
Hi Dave.

Just had a quick look.
The roundhouse punch in the book is more like a Choi Lai Fut kind of swing punch,anyway they don't teach tan against a roundhouse any more.
WT

Sihing73
07-13-2000, 06:58 AM
Hi WT,

I can't say I am surprised as the curriculum changed a few times while I was still with the organization.

I think it is important not to get too hung up on different techniques as there are so many variables in each situation to make the proper response different each time.

In any event, I am glad that we can discuss things like adults and even if we disagree on things can still respect one anothers viewpoints.

Again I wish you well in your training. I left the organization but still have many within it that I consider friends. Of course, some won't be seen with me in public /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Hmm considerig my looks I even have trouble getting my wife to be seen with me. (One reason I did not post a picture is I tried and broke the camera /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) LOL

Peace,

Dave

Sharky
07-14-2000, 04:19 AM
that's confidence for ya

Edd

beungood
04-03-2012, 05:17 PM
What You see in the Hong Kong movies is stage combat performed by actors and stuntmen.
Not much do do with the real thing.

Use a punch to stop a roundhouse,not a tan sao.

William Cheung's footwork didn't save him
against Emin Boztepe.

I'm not from either camp, but, that video doesn't make either look good. But how would footwork save you when someone walks up behind you and hits you? Not meant to start any arguements.

Jeung
04-05-2012, 06:52 AM
Its been more than 2 decades since William Cheung first mentioned modified wing chun.
Its been more than 1 decade since this thread started.
Regarding modified wing chun, black flag wing chun is reported by the VTM as wing chun but then Sifu Sergio presented evidence from Indonesia debunking black flag wing chun. He recorded a video of the same grandmaster the VTM interviewed but now he admits it was all made up in America. We should focus on wing chun from China, not south east Asia where it was easily debunked.
See vtmshaolinbull5hit.blogspot.com

lance
04-07-2012, 12:11 AM
Its been more than 2 decades since William Cheung first mentioned modified wing chun.
Its been more than 1 decade since this thread started.
Regarding modified wing chun, black flag wing chun is reported by the VTM as wing chun but then Sifu Sergio presented evidence from Indonesia debunking black flag wing chun. He recorded a video of the same grandmaster the VTM interviewed but now he admits it was all made up in America. We should focus on wing chun from China, not south east Asia where it was easily debunked.
See vtmshaolinbull5hit.blogspot.com

Jeung , is ' nt there 2 - types of modified wing chun ? One has to do with Sifu Cheung and Sifu Leung ting ? And the late bruce lee ?
Now you mentioned black flag wing chun ? I saw the youtube video ,as you said in your thread , Is the black flag wing chun is the system without any history ? Because only now I ' ve heard about black flag wing chun , because I ' ve never heard about it before . So you ' re saying the the black flag wing chun is BS .

Now the China Wing Chun , is that with Ip Man ? If I ' m not mistaken reading from this thread about WC , mostly everybody is learning from instructors who learned from GM Ip Man himself or Sigungs of the late GM Ip Man . Very few people are learning WC system of different lineages .

So Jeung this website everythingwingchun.com does it have information on wing chun from china ? Or is it the Ip Man lineage ? Because I remember we ' ve had this WC controversy from before it ' s probably as old as bruce lee since he passes away .

Jeung
04-07-2012, 12:00 PM
hi Lance, what I know about modified wing chun is it was first defined by William Chueng. According to William, he learned both Traditional Wing Chun and modified Wing Chun from Ip Man. William said he was the only one taught Traditional Wing Chun. The two versions of Wing Chun Ip Man taught is sourced from China, thats what I'm talking about.
How is black flag connected to modified wing chun? According to evidence on black flags multiple history and background, black flag is madeup from Kwee King Yang's Kung fu which is a mixture of 5 Ancestors & 18 Lohan hand plus Vikoga Wing Chun plus Hung Fa Yi theory. Vikoga Wing Chun is Victor Leow's creation which is made up of many different branchs of Ip Man's modified wing chun. Chung Che Man is a student of Victor and teacher of black flag wing chun Kenneth Lin Xiang Fuk. Do you see the connection to modified wing chun? According to Vikoga Wing Chun family tree, David Peterson is one of Kenneth Lin Xiang Fuk's Sigung. If you review these two videos below, you will see the evidences that black flag wing chun is made up. I hope Wing Chun sites such as everythingwingchun.com know what back ground black flag comes from. There is aaalot of information in the videos. Lance, you can judge for yourself but I see them constantly changing there names and history to this day.:eek:
HKB (Black Flag) Eng Chun Xiang Fuk Lin's multiple identities, multiple background
part1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQQN1MX5xB8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQQN1MX5xB8)
part2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLqiALIyNMk

Happy Tiger
04-07-2012, 07:09 PM
There is only one modification in wing chun that I hold as significant beyond all others and that is the issue of shifting (pien sun) or not shifting. The core of VT is the spine, upright centre. All other structure references are measured from there. The VT of oldest world do not seem to engage in shifting. Once VT reached the boats an unique challenge was faced. The opera boats and docks were unique places for battle. Restricted footwork meant a modification in VT structure to accommodate the tight environs. Thus, shifting. Every rule of VT must be 'modified' if VT is to work in 'shifted' mode. Different solutions, different structure, different rule of elbow. Then a second period of extreme environment further influenced the mix. The roof tops of Hong Kong. In Ip Man lineages this issue seems to be close to the centre. With nearly every house at odds with others on the point) IMHO this is what 'modified' VT is. Technologically anyway.

lance
04-08-2012, 01:34 AM
hi Lance, what I know about modified wing chun is it was first defined by William Chueng. According to William, he learned both Traditional Wing Chun and modified Wing Chun from Ip Man. William said he was the only one taught Traditional Wing Chun. The two versions of Wing Chun Ip Man taught is sourced from China, thats what I'm talking about.
How is black flag connected to modified wing chun? According to evidence on black flags multiple history and background, black flag is madeup from Kwee King Yang's Kung fu which is a mixture of 5 Ancestors & 18 Lohan hand plus Vikoga Wing Chun plus Hung Fa Yi theory. Vikoga Wing Chun is Victor Leow's creation which is made up of many different branchs of Ip Man's modified wing chun. Chung Che Man is a student of Victor and teacher of black flag wing chun Kenneth Lin Xiang Fuk. Do you see the connection to modified wing chun? According to Vikoga Wing Chun family tree, David Peterson is one of Kenneth Lin Xiang Fuk's Sigung. If you review these two videos below, you will see the evidences that black flag wing chun is made up. I hope Wing Chun sites such as everythingwingchun.com know what back ground black flag comes from. There is aaalot of information in the videos. Lance, you can judge for yourself but I see them constantly changing there names and history to this day.:eek:
HKB (Black Flag) Eng Chun Xiang Fuk Lin's multiple identities, multiple background
part1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQQN1MX5xB8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQQN1MX5xB8)
part2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLqiALIyNMk

Jeung Hello , Thanks alot for this very interesting information about modified WC , you ' re right about Sifu Cheung learning 2 - versions of WC the modified and the traditional version . Is that the reason why Cheungs' chum kiu form is different from the other WC sifus' form . Example Wong Shun Leung ' s chum kiu has the twisting of the waist . GM Cheung ' s chum kiu does ' nt have the twisting of the body . Could that be the modified WC chum kiu set ? I thought that he modified it to make it his way . But now that your thread mentioned it , it ' s probably the modified WC chum kiu .

And the 5 - ancestors fist style , speaking of this style , I just happened to get a DVD instructional version on this style . It looks like karate , and the 18 lohans according to that Sifu Sergio is really WC , but the ? is , is it modified or traditional WC ? Jeung just how many different branches are there in modified WC ?
And Sifu David Peterson was he still teaching kenneth lin while teaching under the late Sifu Wong Shun Leung ? Jeung , you also mentioned the china WC is that the traditional one that GM Ip Man taught to GM Cheung , Sifu Wong Shun Leung ,
Lok Yiu , Leung Sheung , Ho Kam Ming and the list of names goes on and on . Or is that the modified one .

Jeung PM me .

Happy Tiger
04-10-2012, 10:15 AM
There is only one 'modified' VT That which was born of 'special needs' which were the docks and boats of the opera. Shifting stance, deep turning ( hip and waist. Still aligned) all 'modified' to adapt to the new environs

sanjuro_ronin
04-10-2012, 10:51 AM
Every style of WC is "modified" and when people finally understand that then maybe, just maybe, the silliness of WC politics and "lineage wars" will die the death they so deserve.

Frost
04-10-2012, 11:29 AM
Every style of WC is "modified" and when people finally understand that then maybe, just maybe, the silliness of WC politics and "lineage wars" will die the death they so deserve.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::

Will you Canadians stop being sensible please!

Jeung
04-13-2012, 09:54 PM
Jeung Hello , Thanks alot for this very interesting information about modified WC , you ' re right about Sifu Cheung learning 2 - versions of WC the modified and the traditional version . Is that the reason why Cheungs' chum kiu form is different from the other WC sifus' form . Example Wong Shun Leung ' s chum kiu has the twisting of the waist . GM Cheung ' s chum kiu does ' nt have the twisting of the body . Could that be the modified WC chum kiu set ? I thought that he modified it to make it his way . But now that your thread mentioned it , it ' s probably the modified WC chum kiu .

And the 5 - ancestors fist style , speaking of this style , I just happened to get a DVD instructional version on this style . It looks like karate , and the 18 lohans according to that Sifu Sergio is really WC , but the ? is , is it modified or traditional WC ? Jeung just how many different branches are there in modified WC ?
And Sifu David Peterson was he still teaching kenneth lin while teaching under the late Sifu Wong Shun Leung ? Jeung , you also mentioned the china WC is that the traditional one that GM Ip Man taught to GM Cheung , Sifu Wong Shun Leung ,
Lok Yiu , Leung Sheung , Ho Kam Ming and the list of names goes on and on . Or is that the modified one .

Jeung PM me .

Hey Lance, sorry for the delay. thanks for the information.

Last word from Sifu Sergio.. he made a video where he says 18 Lohan
Hand is not Wing Chun. check out the first 3 minutes here.. the part where he is
talking in the beginning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk3WPHKAMyg&list=UURex0fFs_Ln2o769H3mFfZg
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk3WPHKAMyg&list=UURex0fFs_Ln2o769H3mFfZg)

Back to traditional and modified wing chun as William Cheung defined it. Actually
in the Traditional Wing Chun family tree, it was Dr. Leung Jan who divided Wing
Chun into modified Wing Chun and Traditional Wing Chun or TWC. There is a lot
of Wing Chun that traces back to Dr Leung Jan today, including people on this
forum. I think you will find answers to your questions that arose from William's
definition of traditional and modified Wing Chun from the TWC family tree.
http://wingchunkwoon.com/tree.asp
http://wingchunkwoon.com/images/familytree_09.jpg

Now look at Vikoga Wing Chun family tree, Victor Leow created it as its outlined.
He captured different modified Wing Chun from most of all Ip Man's students.
Kenneth Lin did not learn from David Peterson, he learned from Anthony Chung
Che Man in Indonesia. This is Lin's lineage to David Peterson.
David Peterson > Victor Leow > Anthony Chung Che Man > Kenneth Lin. So really
black flag wing chun is 6th generation Ip Man Wing Chun.
http://www.accsoft.com.au/~cheng/pics/wclineage.gif

kentchang
04-14-2012, 01:47 PM
Every style of WC is "modified" and when people finally understand that then maybe, just maybe, the silliness of WC politics and "lineage wars" will die the death they so deserve.

Since William Cheung has something to contribute to wing chun community, why worry so much about the term modified or traditional? Maybe it's more important to give some appriciation to someone who dares to share, to promote, to preserve the art of wing chun.



And Sifu David Peterson was he still teaching kenneth lin while teaching under the late Sifu Wong Shun Leung ?

There's a report of Kenneth Lin's inside story here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGe1Ypn3n8I

It can't be easy admitting ones involvement in deception. But I admire someone who has the courage to stand up and inform the public of the truth.

Happy Tiger
04-15-2012, 06:39 AM
The only problem I've ever had with the term 'modified' is that sifu William Cheung always tries to say this family of VT is 'inferior' to traditional VT. In fact, he basically says it was created to be 'inferior' and 'easier' than the other. I don't see that at all. Modifications are adaptations to change. If seen in this light the old and the new really work together and operate side by side. Male female.

Wayfaring
04-15-2012, 09:32 AM
The only problem I ever had with the term 'modified' was that sifu William Cheung always tries to say this family of VT is 'inferior' to traditional VT. In fact, he basically says it was created to be 'inferior' and 'easier' than the other. I don't see that at all. Modifications are adaptations to changes. If seen in this light the old and the new really work together and operate side by side. Male female.

IMO this is a major malady of WCK that i don't see in other arts. "I have TH3 R3@L WCK".

When I hear things like that I can always hear Eminem in the background - "Will the real Slim Shady please stand up, please stand up, please stand up"

jesper
04-15-2012, 03:31 PM
IMO this is a major malady of WCK that i don't see in other arts. "I have TH3 R3@L WCK".

When I hear things like that I can always hear Eminem in the background - "Will the real Slim Shady please stand up, please stand up, please stand up"

Dunno, my son did some karate for about 1 year and they had the same mentality there.

It looks to me like those that fight and test there stuff against other arts, dont really put so much emphasis on lineage and other marketing ploys as those that spend their time doing forms and other drills only.

Even inside specific lineages you see difference in attitude. When I started WT my teacher was very specific about not listening to all the marketing bs and just go test against others to see if what he taught me was any good :)
Actually one of the reasons I wouldnt hesitate directing people to the scandinavian branch even though I myself switched to train under sifu Wan Kam Leung.

Happy Tiger
04-15-2012, 08:41 PM
IMO this is a major malady of WCK that i don't see in other arts. "I have TH3 R3@L WCK".

When I hear things like that I can always hear Eminem in the background - "Will the real Slim Shady please stand up, please stand up, please stand up"
Ha ha, nice:)

LoneTiger108
04-16-2012, 05:33 AM
Back to traditional and modified wing chun as William Cheung defined it. Actually in the Traditional Wing Chun family tree, it was Dr. Leung Jan who divided Wing Chun into modified Wing Chun and Traditional Wing Chun or TWC. There is a lot of Wing Chun that traces back to Dr Leung Jan today, including people on this forum. I think you will find answers to your questions that arose from William's definition of traditional and modified Wing Chun from the TWC family tree.

It was very interesting to see how Sifu Cheung divides the tree into such Traditional/Modern categories but I find the whole division pretty silly to be honest (especially when it is indicated that my Sigung learnt from Yuen Kay Shan!!) You see, Traditional for me is what Ng Jung So stood for from my research. And if you have no cultural practise, you have no tradition. End of. That actually means your school will have a Flag/Banner and you will also have the knowledge of using it ;)

Then there is the modern argument, or modified, and this is where I agree with Sanjuro! At every step of our history Wing Chun has changed to become the character and personality of whoever it is that learnt and passed it on. This is what I refer to as the 'style' of Wing Chun. I find Sifus that teach tech after tech are like this, mimiking their own Sifu and using experience to teach, so they can literally be indentified by their first few moves of SLT.

The 'system' of Wing Chun imho has still not been revealed in it's entirety but efforts have been made to share the 'language' of our ancestors at least with the publication of Kuen Kuit and Martial Literature etc I also regard Fung Family stuff as Modern, in the same manner I see everything Ip Man done in HK as Modern. These are personal 'styles' or expressions of an older system.

The thing is, it all flows from the exact same methods and until a complete and understandable construct of that is agreed by all the Masters/Sifus out there today we will forever be dealing with a progressive Art. Something that will change from generation to generation. We see it today in every student of Ip Man. And I personally see it in every student of my own Sigung Lee Shing.

That too is not always a bad thing as long as the System is still in place. It's just getting to grips with exactly what that is. Just my thoughts.

Happy Tiger
04-16-2012, 08:54 AM
The term 'modified' as expressed in the bad old days seems to revolve around three central issues ; shifting, body turning and footwork. IMO these are all adaptations born of specific environmental concerns and super tight quarters found on the docks and boats during the 'Opera' period. I mean even 'Traditional VT is evolving or 'modifying' or is it not? It seems more or less one VT went on the boat, two or more came off. What makes Ip Man VT so curious is a seeming, phasic integration of these with varying degrees of success. Like a puzzle meant to be worked out with all the clues right in plain sight.

LoneTiger108
04-18-2012, 03:53 AM
The term 'modified' as expressed in the bad old days seems to revolve around three central issues ; shifting, body turning and footwork. IMO these are all adaptations born of specific environmental concerns and super tight quarters found on the docks and boats during the 'Opera' period.

A good opinion but incorrect imhho.

Good Wing Chun includes everything you mention because it has 'always been there'. If anything, whilst on the boats etc the system was restricted to suit such environments, it wasn't redesigned from the base up to include anything 'new'. And there are other stories about the developments on the boats, ranging from the more secretive assassin crews to more simpler (and honest!) cooks, actors and performers.

And if you are into the language of Wing Chun, it was during the operatic period our specific slang terms were introduced and the more poetic verses may have been modified or encoded. Again, just my own random research.


What makes Ip Man VT so curious is a seeming, phasic integration of these with varying degrees of success. Like a puzzle meant to be worked out with all the clues right in plain sight.

Very very true. Ip Mans 'puzzle' is still to be understood and may always remain hidden imho because there seems to be far more interest in the mainland and older families nowadays. And Ip Mans influences may become distant memories all too soon and I do not really want this to happen.

Vajramusti
04-18-2012, 05:12 AM
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108 And Ip Mans influences may become distant memories all too soon and I do not really want this to happen.[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------------------------
?????In my family- he remains the main figure.

I would be doing other things (striking, kicking, some grappling etc) if I did not come across top quality Ip man wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

GlennR
04-18-2012, 05:22 AM
Very very true. Ip Mans 'puzzle' is still to be understood and may always remain hidden imho because there seems to be far more interest in the mainland and older families nowadays. And Ip Mans influences may become distant memories all too soon and I do not really want this to happen.

I agree with you in regards to the interest in Mainland Styles cuurently, they are somewhat fashionable (if thats the right term) right now.
But its just a phase and i think the balance of acknowledgement will reassert itself.

Having said that, I dont buy the whole IM puzzle thing, he was a talented guy for sure but no Super man... All of his "secrets" are still there for us

LoneTiger108
04-18-2012, 05:26 AM
------------------------------------------------------------
?????In my family- he remains the main figure.

As he does in mine too Joy, regardless of what people think about my Sigung he was very loyal to Ip Mans mission in Europe. And so too is my Sifu FWIW.

Happy Tiger
04-18-2012, 07:26 AM
A good opinion but incorrect imhho.

Good Wing Chun includes everything you mention because it has 'always been there'. If anything, whilst on the boats etc the system was restricted to suit such environments, it wasn't redesigned from the base up to include anything 'new'. And there are other stories about the developments on the boats, ranging from the more secretive assassin crews to more simpler (and honest!) cooks, actors and performers.

And if you are into the language of Wing Chun, it was during the operatic period our specific slang terms were introduced and the more poetic verses may have been modified or encoded. Again, just my own random research.



Very very true. Ip Mans 'puzzle' is still to be understood and may always remain hidden imho because there seems to be far more interest in the mainland and older families nowadays. And Ip Mans influences may become distant memories all too soon and I do not really want this to happen.
Thanks for your reply. I should have been clearer. The old 'traditional' VT has most of these things mentioned but in a quite different format. The exception being of 'shifting' which, as far as I can tell, is not incorporated at all in the old Jee Shin, Hung Fa Yi and Traditional VT. I'm working on a bit more involved response.
Respects

Happy Tiger
04-18-2012, 10:07 AM
I agree with you in regards to the interest in Mainland Styles cuurently, they are somewhat fashionable (if thats the right term) right now.
But its just a phase and i think the balance of acknowledgement will reassert itself.

Having said that, I dont buy the whole IM puzzle thing, he was a talented guy for sure but no Super man... All of his "secrets" are still there for us
More puzzle for me,heheh! Chinese martial art is ripe with puzzles, cryptics and decipherable ciphers, it's one of the coolest things about gung fu. There's something there,man. Born of GM Ip Mans unique pedigree,no doubt. There are no secrets in a puzzle, that's the thing...if there were, that would be seen as un fair. It's right in front of us, we just have to monkey it out.

k gledhill
04-18-2012, 10:37 AM
More puzzle for me,heheh! Chinese martial art is ripe with puzzles, cryptics and decipherable ciphers, it's one of the coolest things about gung fu. There's something there,man. Born of GM Ip Mans unique pedigree,no doubt. There are no secrets in a puzzle, that's the thing...if there were, that would be seen as un fair. It's right in front of us, we just have to monkey it out.

VT doesn't need secrets, its so abstract to begin with....

LoneTiger108
04-19-2012, 05:23 AM
Thanks for your reply. I should have been clearer. The old 'traditional' VT has most of these things mentioned but in a quite different format. The exception being of 'shifting' which, as far as I can tell, is not incorporated at all in the old Jee Shin, Hung Fa Yi and Traditional VT. I'm working on a bit more involved response.
Respects

So when you say 'shifting' I presume you aint talking about stealthy Shinobi methods!!?? :D

You are right about the answers being 'right in front of us' too, and I like the way you use the word 'puzzle' instead of 'secret', but unfortunately I feel that if a Sifu has a reputation, has put more than 10 years into his career and still has a following that in effect is feeding him and his family, they may have no interest whatsoever in having the puzzle revealed!

I have recently had direct experience of this, but luckily the Sifu in question was very humble and open to learning as all he wanted was to improve himself and the quality of his students. We still learn from eachother now too.

Perhaps start a thread on this 'shifting' thing, but if it's all about what point of the foot is used to turn and kidney meridians, toes or heels blah blah blah I think it's been slogged to death here already :(

Mutant
04-19-2012, 04:24 PM
I agree with you in regards to the interest in Mainland Styles cuurently, they are somewhat fashionable (if thats the right term) right now.
But its just a phase and i think the balance of acknowledgement will reassert itself.

Having said that, I dont buy the whole IM puzzle thing, he was a talented guy for sure but no Super man... All of his "secrets" are still there for us
Fashionable right now??? WTF? For some of us this is our core style that we've done for years and years... Just because there's finally a bit of interest and acknowledgement doesn't mean its some new fashionable thing... Historically here any mainland or turning style discussion is relegated to the back corner while you guys argue about lineage and blow opium smoke up Ip Man's @ss. In fact mainland WC is still barely known in the grand scheme of things. Many of us 'mainland' guys have been reading your threads about Ip Man (with interest) for years, and now some people talk about some of the mainland stuff and its just a passing popular trend that you Ip Man guys have to be condescending towards? You guys are f#cking nuts lol :D

GlennR
04-19-2012, 05:41 PM
Fashionable right now??? WTF? For some of us this is our core style that we've done for years and years... Just because there's finally a bit of interest and acknowledgement doesn't mean its some new fashionable thing... Historically here any mainland or turning style discussion is relegated to the back corner while you guys argue about lineage and blow opium smoke up Ip Man's @ss. In fact mainland WC is still barely known in the grand scheme of things. Many of us 'mainland' guys have been reading your threads about Ip Man (with interest) for years, and now some people talk about some of the mainland stuff and its just a passing popular trend that you Ip Man guys have to be condescending towards? You guys are f#cking nuts lol :D

Fashionable in the sense that there is people looking back past Yip Man to see what other styles/lineages of WC are available. Not so long ago, if it was WC without Yip Man in it, then in a lot of peoples eyes it wasnt "proper" WC.
So i think you have over reacted a bit

And FWIW my core style is a mainland one.

Mutant
04-19-2012, 10:14 PM
Hi Glenn, no worries and not trying to be a spaz lol. I just got a chuckle out of the conversation and was a bit dismayed at first, but I do see the broader context and better understand what was meant now. Cheers.

GlennR
04-19-2012, 11:08 PM
Hi Glenn, no worries and not trying to be a spaz lol. I just got a chuckle out of the conversation and was a bit dismayed at first, but I do see the broader context and better understand what was meant now. Cheers.

No problem M, after all, us mainland guys have to stick together ;)

LoneTiger108
04-20-2012, 07:48 AM
No problem M, after all, us mainland guys have to stick together ;)

That made me chuckle :D

I hate to break it to you guys, but Ip Man WAS a mainland guy! :p

k gledhill
04-20-2012, 08:01 AM
That made me chuckle :D

I hate to break it to you guys, but Ip Man WAS a mainland guy! :p

Sshhh !! Spencer you're giving away secrets ;)

LoneTiger108
04-20-2012, 08:11 AM
Sshhh !! Spencer you're giving away secrets ;)

:eek: So Sorry so sorry!!!

You are beginning to sound like my Sifu!! :D :D

Happy Tiger
04-21-2012, 06:55 AM
Sshhh !! Spencer you're giving away secrets ;)
>snicker<:)