Creatine

[Toby]

OK, I finally decided to give it a go. Since the forum changeover I can't search any old threads (rub, can you ask Gene to fix it someday so we can search that old stuff - lots of gold there). So I decided to ask some advice. My references say 3g/day. My creatine packet says 3g/day. I always thought 3g/day. No loading period for me. I also bought some maltodextrin or dextrose or something in case the theory about loading with high-GI carbs is true (I need to research that again too). Here's what I need help with:

(i) 3g/day - what are you doing?
(ii) Take with what? I haven't tasted it yet but it says mix with water (and optional high-GI carbs)
(iii) When? I already have a big breakfast of ~35g protein + 4-500ml milk + ~50g fibre + more milk + strong coffee. I don't want to take it to work for during the day. Before dinner? Before bed? Before PTP in the morning?

I've got 500g so I'll probably cycle a month or two on, a month off and see how I go.

mickey, I know you'll say not to do it, but I have a long history of self-experimentation and I've decided to give it a go since it suits my personal training regime to a T so you won't change my mind ;).

[Mo Lung]

I would suggest 5g per day, no loading period. Your cycle suggestion sounds good.

On workout days, take it PWO with high carbs to use the insulin spike. Grape juice is great for taking it with, but that depends how rich you are! Don't take it with anything acidic (like orange juice) and not when you have soffee, so not with breakfast. Otherwise, it doesn't really matter when. PWO is the ideal time as the insulin spike will work for you, assuming you take it with a carbs boost. Do you take a carb/protein shake after training or anything? If so, just put it in there.

[Toby]

Do you take a carb/protein shake after training or anything?PWO is breakfast for me. I get up, do my PTP and superset with some wooden dummy, bagwork and skipping then breakfast at like 7:30am. I couldn't resist and tried 3-5g last night before bed and another 3-5g this morning PWO. I took it with water and the dextrose which made a nice syrupy-sweet drink. Straight after I had my protein, then the bran cereal and coffee probably 30min after the creatine mix.

So how do you measure 3g or 5g? I'm using my protein scoop which is 8-9g protein/scoop. I'm using about 1/3-1/2 scoop and hoping the specific gravity of creatine powder is similar.

[mickey]

Wha? Is it him? Is it really him? (hand rushes to right eye to hold back tear)

Its Tobeee!!! He's back, he's back!!! (running in circles with palms upward and face up smiling at the sun)

Toby, its been years. How ya doing?


So you are going to do that creatine thing, huh?

1- Make sure your your creatine is pure. Mad cow in any form should be avoided.

2- Drink LOTS of water. This is to be differentiated from other liquids that contain water.

3- Especially drink more water than usual during your workouts.

4- Take a few "before" pictures just in case you grow a strange appendage that, somehow, you always believed was there. Give them to your significant other for a possible future intervention.


Good Luck to You. Keep in mind that your life has a value greater than that which corporations place on it.

Respectfully,

mickey

[Mo Lung]

PWO is breakfast for me. I get up, do my PTP and superset with some wooden dummy, bagwork and skipping then breakfast at like 7:30am. I couldn't resist and tried 3-5g last night before bed and another 3-5g this morning PWO. I took it with water and the dextrose which made a nice syrupy-sweet drink. Straight after I had my protein, then the bran cereal and coffee probably 30min after the creatine mix.Fair enough, but I'd hold off on the coffee if that's possible. It won't make much difference, but if you could leave an hour or more before the coffee it would be a bit better. Mind you, I know one guy that does his morning workout, then has breakfast and stirs his creatine into his coffee and he swears by it. Go figure!
So how do you measure 3g or 5g? I'm using my protein scoop which is 8-9g protein/scoop. I'm using about 1/3-1/2 scoop and hoping the specific gravity of creatine powder is similar.Close enough. Truth is, you could go right up to around 8 - 10g a day without worrying to much, but I'd always err on the side of caution. Make sure the scoop is a bit less than half full and you'll be right. Taking it with the dextrose is ideal as it needs a good CHO transport system to be most effective.

[Mo Lung]

BTW Tobes, keep us informed on this thread. I'm doing a kind of unofficial survey on creatine use at the moment, so I'd be interested in your thoughts and results from its use.

[IronFist]

If it's plain creatine mix it with juice. I've heard grape works the best. I used cranberry juice.

If it's already got sugar in it then just mix it with water, and know that you paid too much for the "secret activation ingredient" that is actually just the same sugar you could have gotten from grape juice :)

To measure, the side of the container should say something like:

Serving size: about 5g (1 1/2 teaspoons)

So then you get a teaspoon or whatever and measure based on that.

[Toby]

I wanted to get back to this thread sooner, but I had to struggle through mickey's waves of sarcasm. Wow! :p

mickey, what's the rationale behind only water? I drink at least a couple of litres of milk a day and 1L of green tea + assorted juices. I don't drink much pure water.


If it's already got sugar in it ...mickey and Iron, here's (http://www.myopure.com.au/creatine-monohydrate.html) my trusty supplier. His prices have slowly gone up over the last year or so, but he sells good protein anyway. From the packet I got and the webpage I'm pretty confident in the quality of the creatine.

Serp, I'll drop in on this thread with my feelings in the short-medium term.

[Mo Lung]

Serp? ;) Looks OK, but I've not seen that brand before. Take it with some form of carbs for the insulin boost discussed before. Also, you should drink plenty of regular water whatever else you drink. Other things like tea are diruetic and actually cost you total water and things such as milk have very little water content incomparison to volume. You need water for good cell function. Try drinking at least a litre a day, two preferably - you'll definitely notice the difference.

[Toby]

Whoops :p. Mmm. I find water boring, even though Perth water's not bad at all compared with other places in Oz (so I hear - e.g. Adelaide).

Update - just did HIIT and felt strong. Probably psychosomatic. PTP I can't give an objective opinion just yet because I put on some Easter chocolate weight and I've got a niggling groin injury so either way I'm not training how I was a month ago.

[FooFighter]

Toby,
"Trac" creatine by MHP (http://maxperformance.com/products/trac.shtml) has been quite effective and powerful for me. It truly powerful stuff when I compared it to my old experience of loading EAS creatine or the HP formula years ago. TRac is easy to use and no loading. I drink it 30 mins before my CST workout or during my workout. I dont use this product often and only use Trac when I feeling low in energy and not motivated.

[Samurai Jack]

Whoops :p. Mmm. I find water boring, even though Perth water's not bad at all compared with other places in Oz (so I hear - e.g. Adelaide).

Update - just did HIIT and felt strong. Probably psychosomatic. PTP I can't give an objective opinion just yet because I put on some Easter chocolate weight and I've got a niggling groin injury so either way I'm not training how I was a month ago.

Well if you aren't loading it'll be awhile before you notice a strength increase. The "little jump" you've heard about only happens when you load in my experience.

You've gotta drink water Toby since the creatine will be drawing water away from other functions and storing it in your skeletal muscle. That's what it's supposed to do, but it won't work to enhance performance if your water intake is inadequate. You need at least a couple of litres of water a day in addition to your regular needs when using creatine.

[mickey]

Hello Toby,

Items 1,2, and 3 were serious. The rest all in fun. :) The intervention thing is an "in between."

I strongly suggested plain water because I noticed that you do not have enough of it in your diet. The "trick" with creatine is that is causes cell volumization through the absorption of water; therefore, your muscles look bigger. In doing so, it takes away water that is necessary for elimination through the skin, kidneys, liver, and intestines. Your body will need the extra water. Fluids alone will not do it for you. A backed up septic system was how I described the goings on inside your body if water consumption is not enough.

Creatine's true use is in helping cattle stay warm in winter. They run to build up heat in the body and then stand close together, keeping the warmth in. You may have noticed how your body temperature increases after eating steak or beef ribs. That is the creatine at work, holding the water in your cells, restricting respiration. In the past days of bodybuilding, the eating of steak was encouraged because its ability to help the bodybuilder put on size.

In training, you will need the extra water to avoid overheating. Sudden death from overheating (heat stroke) is a real possibility with creatine.

I just took a look at your supplier. They don't say much about their source. Where are the cattle located?

I hope I have answered your questions well.

mickey

[IronFist]

Not to say creatine doesn't work, but keep in mind that when a lot of people go on it they kind of get their workouts and diets in check, too, so some of the gains people get may just be from being very strict with their workouts and diets. Not that that's a bad thing.

The same thing can happen with roids. Someone kinda works out for a while, decides they want to do a cycle, and then goes balls out in the gym during their cycle. Yes, the drugs helped them a lot, but also the fact that their workouts and diet were spot on contributed, too.

I'm tired and I can't think, but you know what I mean.

I noticed a bit of a difference when I was using creatine. I'd bet some of it was due to the fact that I was much more consistent with my workouts and diet during this time, but I'd bet a bigger part of it was due to the creatine itself. It was like I could get a few extra reps, and my cycles always ended a little heavier than I thought they would.

[Mo Lung]

In training, you will need the extra water to avoid overheating. Sudden death from overheating (heat stroke) is a real possibility with creatine.ou want to supply a source for this? I'd love to see the studies.

Tobes - I find creatine to be quite effective in aiding recovery and boosting performance, but the strength and size gains it's reputed to impart are negligible in my experience.

But do drink more water!

[Toby]

I find creatine to be quite effective in aiding recovery and boosting performanceThat's why I'm taking it - I don't care about size. Suits my PTP and HIIT type training and I thought I'd give it a go.

mickey, the link describes where the creatine comes from - some German variety off the top of my head.

Everyone - I don't get why I need water as opposed to all the other liquid I drink but I take the point - I'll try to increase my intake. As it is, I should've mentioned that I usually drink juice with 1/2 water, 1/2 juice. Does that count? How much water do I need in proportion before it counts?

[mickey]

Hi Mo Lung,

No studies just simple biology 101. What are the many purposes of water in your system? Take the time to study that. It is worth it.

I would not want studies; I want healthy people.

I read the TwinLab report about creatine when they were bringing it to the market. It was incredibly pro creatine. They wrote about the perks in their Muscular Development magazine and, somehow, omitted the drawbacks. This was during the time when they were supposed to have been going all natural. Former bodybuilder Rick Wayne wrote for them because of this new direction. They even managed to get the late Steve Reeves invloved because of the "all natural steroid free" snowjob they were putting forth.

They failed to convince me. I saw what they were omitting and was able to see the potential dangers of taking such a product. And I am not afraid to share that with others.


Toby, I cannot tell you how much water to take because I do not touch the stuff. I simply noticed from your listing that your organs are already working to filter what you are presently taking. Taking creatine would intensify the process because it takes water away.


mickey

[Mo Lung]

Everyone - I don't get why I need water as opposed to all the other liquid I drink but I take the point - I'll try to increase my intake. As it is, I should've mentioned that I usually drink juice with 1/2 water, 1/2 juice. Does that count? How much water do I need in proportion before it counts?Water (just good old water on it's own) is essential for proper cell function. If the cells have to filter out other stuff to get to the pure water, the less effective the drink is in providing water to the cells.

[Mo Lung]

Hi Mo Lung,

No studies just simple biology 101. What are the many purposes of water in your system? Take the time to study that. It is worth it.

I would not want studies; I want healthy people.And herein lies your problem. I long ago learned to ignore healthy people! ;) The thing is, people will report all sorts of different levels of health and only when large numbers of people are studied in controlled conditions will real information become clear.

And suggesting that I take the time to study the many purposes of water is a little condescending, don't you think? I'm advocating the intake of plenty of water. It's this claim that I was asking for verification of:
In training, you will need the extra water to avoid overheating. Sudden death from overheating (heat stroke) is a real possibility with creatine.Can you use "simple biology 101" to explain that for me? (The creatine/heat stroke link). Also, as it's a "real possibility" I'd like to see some sources citing it as occurring, because I've never seen any to date. Therefore, if it's never actually happened, it's hardly a real possibility.

And for the record, I don't necessarily condone creatine use. I try to avoid all artificial supplements as I think we operate best from a natural diet. However, I have used creatine (and other supplements) before for a number of reasons. For one, it's my job to know about this stuff, so I like first hand experiencial knowledge.

I still occasionally use creatine when my work/training load is particularly high, but it's rare that my load is high enough to warrant it. I can maintain a pretty full on schedule without feeling the need for it. But I won't scaremonger about it like you are without some evidence.

[mickey]

Mo Lung,

"If it has never happened it's hardly a real possibility"


Okay Mo Lung. If that is what you believe I will not contend with you. There have been no long term studies with creatine. The current users are the guinea pigs.

I was not at all trying to be condescending when I suggested that you look into the uses of water in your body. It gives you a good picture of how things work and how water is so necessary. If you are telling Toby that water is just necessary for the cells to filter out their garbage, then I say there are more things that water helps with. It is not an issue of intelligence vs stupidity,it is more about becoming a better informed consumer. Addititonally when you understand its uses, you will understand the potential dangers when inadequate amounts of water is present. You really should not need a study for the knowledge you have gained.


My main issue with creatine is the result of cell voluminization as a result of its use. Water is pulled into the cell expanding its size. This is water that is used for removing wastes from the body as well as maintaining body temperature. Now you have less of it to do those functions. If you are working out intensely, you will need to hydrate yourself more than usual. If you don't, your body will heat up. If you are not perspiring while doing a protracted period of intense exercise, you should be concerned.


When it comes to studies, the manufacturers depend largely on the ignorance of the consumer and tend to spoon feed them the info that they want to hear. It was done with steroids, andro, and with creatine.

I am happy that you have never had a bad experience with creatine. And I hope that current users do not experience any future malady as a result of creatine use.


News Flash for those creatine users:

When the product came out and I read the Twinlab report, I actually went out and bought a bottle. Then I started to think about the things that they were not talking about and I threw the bottle away. I never took one pill.

I was able to see through the BS. I am just trying to help others.

Mo Lung, if you want a study, it will not happen. There is no money in it for the corporations

mickey

[Toby]

Gotta admit to all you water-pushers - I felt pretty dehydrated yesterday and today. Drank lots of water. The sort of dehydrated that you might feel after taking antihistamines, for example. On Friday night I managed to close the #2 CoC for 4 reps in the right hand - my previous PR was 3. I should've kept going for that set, but I'd already done my left and my right's stronger anyway so I stopped after 4.

[Vash]

On Friday night I managed to close the #2 CoC. . . I should've kept going. . . I stopped after :eek: . . .

:eek: :D

Whoah.

[Mo Lung]

Mo Lung,

"If it has never happened it's hardly a real possibility"


Okay Mo Lung. If that is what you believe I will not contend with you. There have been no long term studies with creatine. The current users are the guinea pigs.There are already studies done over 5 year periods. That's not especially long term in life duration, but as no one has died of heat stroke during that time plus, then it's not true to say that dying that way is a real possibility. It's never happened yet, over many years of creatine use, therefore it's an outside possibility at best.
I was not at all trying to be condescending when I suggested that you look into the uses of water in your body. It gives you a good picture of how things work and how water is so necessary. If you are telling Toby that water is just necessary for the cells to filter out their garbage, then I say there are more things that water helps with. It is not an issue of intelligence vs stupidity,it is more about becoming a better informed consumer. Addititonally when you understand its uses, you will understand the potential dangers when inadequate amounts of water is present. You really should not need a study for the knowledge you have gained.I know this, but it's not especially relevant to the main point. As far as I'm concerned, Toby should be drinking a lot more water anyway, creatine or not.
My main issue with creatine is the result of cell voluminization as a result of its use. Water is pulled into the cell expanding its size. This is water that is used for removing wastes from the body as well as maintaining body temperature. Now you have less of it to do those functions. If you are working out intensely, you will need to hydrate yourself more than usual. If you don't, your body will heat up. If you are not perspiring while doing a protracted period of intense exercise, you should be concerned.Indeed. Where are the stories of creatine users not sweating?
When it comes to studies, the manufacturers depend largely on the ignorance of the consumer and tend to spoon feed them the info that they want to hear. It was done with steroids, andro, and with creatine.

/snip/

Mo Lung, if you want a study, it will not happen. There is no money in it for the corporations.Of course. But I presume that someone such as yourself has the ability to seek out independent studies. No one with an ounce of sense would trust a study in any way connected to the corporations involved, in competition or otherwise.

[Toby]

As far as I'm concerned, Toby should be drinking a lot more water anyway, creatine or not.:( I drink lots of liquids (i.e. milk and tea) just not much water.

Indeed. Where are the stories of creatine users not sweating?I'm a sweaty bastidge anyway. I haven't stopped in the last few days. I'm typing this 5min after HIIT on the rowing ergo and I'm sweating right now.

[Mo Lung]

:( I drink lots of liquids (i.e. milk and tea) just not much water.See above! Face it, ya juicing hippy - you need more water! ;)
I'm a sweaty bastidge anyway. I haven't stopped in the last few days. I'm typing this 5min after HIIT on the rowing ergo and I'm sweating right now.Yeah, I'm sure you are. Still, I'm sure mickey will supply us with some evidence of his claims. He wouldn't just be making all this stuff up, huh.

[mickey]

Mo Lung,

I never said that creatine users do not sweat! Jeesh!!!

Between my last post and today's, I thought a lot about our polite exchanges and I really do mean polite. I have seen so much worse at this forum. That being said, you have my greatest respect.

The issues that I raise are not those gleaned from studies; but from knowledge applied. I actively engage things with the knowledge that I gained and realize the potential dangers. I did use the terms risks and danger. That does not mean that it will definitely happen; simply, there is a risk and a danger. Some things are certain between us: we assess things differently and we use our knowledge differently. That will not keep me from interacting with you respectfully in the future. Nor will it send me to my pillow in tears. You want a study. I wish I could produce some. For me the ramifications of using creatine easy to see. I erred horribly in thinking that others would easily understand it.

By the way, creatine has been around a lot longer than that 5 year study that you mention. Again, the current users are its guinea pigs.

Question: Are you selling this stuff???

Toby already spoke about feeling dehydrated. Yes, you agree that he does need more water. With creatine even more so.

You want facts based on studies, etc. Take the time to learn how your body works. Don't be so lazy (not said with anger, but with sincere caring-- we are martial arts brothers and sisters here). Look at it as part of your kung fu training. I dare not say that have learned all that there is. I am just a student on the road who cares.

If you need to discount my statements because of the lack of scientific data. So be it. I am at peace with it.

Yours Respectfully,

mickey

P.S.: You are most welcome to have the very last word. Now, that is condescending!:)

[mickey]

Mo Lung,

Before you get in that last word.

This is not a study, but an experience:

http://www.nutritionalsupplements.com/workgnc.html

Check out this one: pay attention to the words "heat intolerance"

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/creatine.html

For every good experience, there is a bad one. To be fair, here is a short term study:

http://druginfo.onu.edu/herbals/creatine.html


What about the deaths of those young wrestlers from dehydration and hyperthermia? It was quickly stated that creatine was not the culprit. Why Mo Lung?

THERE IS TOO MUCH FREAKIN' MONEY TO BE MADE HERE!!!!

I did not draw my conclusions from their deaths, I saw the risks and the dangers.

And no, I am no oracle.

Peace Brother,

mickey

[Mo Lung]

Mo Lung,

I never said that creatine users do not sweat! Jeesh!!!

Between my last post and today's, I thought a lot about our polite exchanges and I really do mean polite. I have seen so much worse at this forum. That being said, you have my greatest respect.Thanks. Likewise.
The issues that I raise are not those gleaned from studies; but from knowledge applied. I actively engage things with the knowledge that I gained and realize the potential dangers. I did use the terms risks and danger. That does not mean that it will definitely happen; simply, there is a risk and a danger.What you actually said was that it was a very real possibility, but there is nothing to back up this assumption on your part.
Some things are certain between us: we assess things differently and we use our knowledge differently. That will not keep me from interacting with you respectfully in the future. Nor will it send me to my pillow in tears. You want a study. I wish I could produce some. For me the ramifications of using creatine easy to see. I erred horribly in thinking that others would easily understand it.That's because you think these things are easy to see, yet they have never been seen. You are making assumptions with no verifiable evidence. Surely you can see that's not very credible?
By the way, creatine has been around a lot longer than that 5 year study that you mention.I know. I was erring on the side of caution for the benefit of argument.
Again, the current users are its guinea pigs.To a degree, yes. But we'd never do anything without some kind fo experiment. You do know that creatine is naturally accurring, right?
Question: Are you selling this stuff???If you took the time to read my posts properly you would know that I don't even advocate using it. I'm against any supplements in the most part. Due to my work/training load I have used it in the past, I may use it again. I used it to inform myself firsthand about it as that's part of my job.
Toby already spoke about feeling dehydrated. Yes, you agree that he does need more water. With creatine even more so.Agreed. But he needs more water anyway, which was my point.
You want facts based on studies, etc. Take the time to learn how your body works. Don't be so lazy (not said with anger, but with sincere caring-- we are martial arts brothers and sisters here). Look at it as part of your kung fu training. I dare not say that have learned all that there is. I am just a student on the road who cares.Have a look at my sig and see what I do for a living. I know plenty about how the body works and I continually strive to learn more as I know there's an awful lot more for me to learn. And you wonder why I call you condescending?
If you need to discount my statements because of the lack of scientific data. So be it. I am at peace with it.Good for you. However, I know that people are clouded by their preconceptions and psychological and psychosomatic tendencies greatly affect what people think. Also, preconceptions play a large role. That's the beauty of the independent study. It is unbiased, has control groups and is as good a realistic method of learning as we can have. You can theorise all you like based on your assumptions, but I'd believe a professional team of unbiased scientists that base their opinions in considerable empirical experimentation over your singular assumptions every time.
P.S.: You are most welcome to have the very last word. Now, that is condescending!:)No more so than the rest of your posts.

[Mo Lung]

Mo Lung,

Before you get in that last word.

This is not a study, but an experience:

http://www.nutritionalsupplements.com/workgnc.html

Check out this one: pay attention to the words "heat intolerance"

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/creatine.html

For every good experience, there is a bad one. To be fair, here is a short term study:

http://druginfo.onu.edu/herbals/creatine.html


There's not really anything here to back up your arguments, mickey. Heat intolerance is mentioned, but not death by heat stroke and these are anecdotal studies.

I agree with you that there is not enough long term study done here and until there is we will never know for sure. However, there is no evidence to back up your level of scaremongering. And I reiterate - I'm not really in favour of supplements anyway, but people will use them, so it's responsible to give them the universally approved advice, not your own agenda.
What about the deaths of those young wrestlers from dehydration and hyperthermia? It was quickly stated that creatine was not the culprit. Why Mo Lung?

THERE IS TOO MUCH FREAKIN' MONEY TO BE MADE HERE!!!!

I did not draw my conclusions from their deaths, I saw the risks and the dangers.

And no, I am no oracle.

Peace Brother,

mickeyWhat deaths are these?

[mickey]

Hi Mo Lung,

If dehydration is not addressed, hyperthermia (heatstroke) will develop. And that can kill.

By the way, I do not scaremonger.

A few years ago there were a few wrestlers who died from dehydration and heatstroke. Creatine was implicated. I have been looking for the article for you but the person at this site makes mention of it:

http://www.nucare.com/noname4.html

When the news of these guys deaths hit the stands there was serious panic about creatine use. The funny thing is that the back page of the newspaper in my area had in bold printing on the back page (this was within a week after the deaths were reported): Creatine is Safe.

It does not end here. Shortly after those guys died (I'd say within eight months) there were two deaths of high school football players who died from heatstroke. Different teams. Different parts of the country. What was strange about it was that they were not playing in extremely hot weather. This was reported once in the media. Their deaths were treated as a mystery. And there was no follow up. It was practically ignored. And since it was stated in the media that creatine is safe, creatine was not even considered a contributing factor.

Check this out. Here is someone who is saying the same thing that I am saying:

http://www.personalhealthzone.com/herbal_medicine/side_effects/creatine_side_effects.html

mickey

[IronFist]

If creatine prevented you from sweating I would use it 365 days a year.

All the food I have to eat to maintain my weight, much less gain any weight, makes me a big sweaty mess. If there was a way to prevent that I would be all over it.

[mickey]

Thanks for the commercial break IronFist.

Much needed.

mickey

[Mo Lung]

A few years ago there were a few wrestlers who died from dehydration and heatstroke. Creatine was implicated. I have been looking for the article for you but the person at this site makes mention of it:

http://www.nucare.com/noname4.htmlDude, have you actually read this article you linked? Here, I'll snip a few quotes from it for you:
Creatine Supplement Use Not New

While creatine is “new” to many here in the U.S., it is not “new” to the rest of the world. The Russians and other Eastern Block countries have used creatine as a sport supplement for at least twenty years. Perhaps this helps explain why the Eastern Block countries beat the West so badly for many years in the Olympics. Recently, I spoke to a Russian Sports scientist who candidly told me that the Russians never found any injurious effects while using creatine.

Creatine Use In the United States

In the West creatine has been manufactured for about nine years. Creatine was first used by successfully in the West in the 1992 Olympics. As creatine began to be readily available in the United States many bodybuilders began taking creatine in massive amounts. Thinking that if a little is good, more must be better they took twenty, forty, and even sixty grams of powder a day, all without injurious effect on their health. If creatine were dangerous, these human “guinea pigs” would have clearly demonstrated these effects over the past nine years.On the deaths of the wrestlers:
This is what I found. Only one of the three wrestlers had ever used creatine. That wrestler stopped using creatine several weeks before his death. By the time of his death creatine his muscle creatine levels would have returned back to normal levels and therefore creatine could not be implicated in his death. Two of the three died of severe dehydration and heat injury. The third probably died of an undiagnosed heart problem. In conclusion I could find no relationship between creatine supplementation and these wrestlers deaths. Since then, more than three years later, I have found no reason to change my mind. No local, state or U.S. government report has implicated creatine in any of the deaths.

The lesson we should learn from these deaths is that using severe dehydration to pull weight not only severely limits wrestling performance but can be extremely dangerous. It killed not only these wrestlers, but may have killed others who did not gain media attention. In the course of my investigation, I learned from wrestling insiders of many other “near death experiences” from dehydration that required medical resuscitation.

Physicians Using Creatine Have Found No Creatine ToxicityAnd here's a non-biased opinion:
The American College of Sports Medicine hosted a roundtable discussion by several top scientists interested in creatine. They reported in their abstract that “there is no definitive evidence that creatine supplementation causes gastrointestinal, renal, and/or muscle cramping complications.” 2

Summary

Despite all the rumor and speculation that we all have heard over the past few years, I find no credible evidence that creatine supplementation is harmful in anyway to our 1. Clin J. Sport Med., 1999, Jul. v. 9, (3), p. 167-169 2. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 2000 Mar; 32 (3): p. 706-17health. On the contrary, an ample amount of creatine is absolutely necessary for healthy muscle and other cellular function.Not really the best link you could have made to support your assumptions.
Check this out. Here is someone who is saying the same thing that I am saying:

http://www.personalhealthzone.com/herbal_medicine/side_effects/creatine_side_effects.html

mickeyAnd this linked has a couple of mentions all qualified with "may" and "possibly", etc. with no data at all to back up the claims. You're right - they are saying exactly what you are saying: Assumptions without any evidence.

I'm tired of this discussion. You hold your views zealously and that's your prerogative. I'm not going to try to change your mind and you have no chance of changing mine, so let's just agree to disagree, ok?

As for anyone else that wants to know about creatine, I'm sure this thread will tell them everything they need to know!

[mickey]

Hello Mo Lung,

I posted those links to see how you would view it. Some people take things as is; others look beyond what is being said.

The wrestlers dying form dehydration and heat injury-- that is a possible complication from taking creatine. The study completely divorces the complications from the intake of creatine, just as you have stated yourself in so many words. Now if all that they were saying was true, there would be absolutely NO NEED to supplement extra water because of creatine because there is no risk of dehydration or heat injury (hyperthermia). NO RISK AT ALL. Part of the reason you do not see that is because you do not have a partial handle on how the body works; specifically, when it comes to its need for water. I knew you would jump on that article and it is not funny. It is sad. One should always consider the motivation of any study as well as who is financing it. And even if it is the best conducted study in the world, it should not take the place of your own thinking. If anything, it should facillitate it.

If anything, Mo Lung, I have learned that you are a follower. You have no initiative to interact with things with your knowledge base. You want it done for you. If steroids came out on the market for the first time today, you would wait for a study to say that the stuff was dangerous. Until then, you would have nothing to say about it pro or con.

One thing that I did notice was that you did not try to reduce the link that pretty much echoed what I was saying all along to some kind of psychological rambling. Gee, I wonder why. Oh Yes, oh yes. I see why now. The information was referenced. You would have to run away from this thread now. Wear your best shoes.

Take Care,

mickey

P.S.:

I guess I should wait for the study that confirms that dehydration, left unchecked, can develop into hyperthermia. And I should wait for the other study that confirms that hyperthermia can be fatal.

[Mo Lung]

If anything, Mo Lung, I have learned that you are a follower. You have no initiative to interact with things with your knowledge base. You want it done for you.Whatever you think, mickey. I'm the one that's actually used creatine to see firsthand what happens. You didn't.

I'm the one that wants to verify my own conclusions with what other people, professionals with better knowledge and experience than me, have to say. You don't.

I'm prepared to learn from the experience of myself and others. You're not. You just stick to your preconceived assumptions in the face of all other evidence.

I think it's quite clear where we both stand on this subject and anyone else can draw their own conclusions. I won't be posting again on this thread. It's pointless.

[IronFist]

Just be careful of dehydration anyway.

You're certaintly not immune to dehydration if you're not using creatine.

[mickey]

Gosh,

I approach things with a preconceived notion? I took the time to read about this product when it first hit the market. I also thought it was safe for a short moment.

Peace Brother Mo Lung. Nice talking with you.:)

IronFist,

You are starting to sound like a moderator. You can head the training forum. You are here 72/7. :)

mickey

[IronFist]

You are starting to sound like a moderator. You can head the training forum. You are here 72/7. :)

mickey

Man, I could get a lot done if I had a 72/7 week!

Would you prefer I go back to the "no, you're wrong, idiot!" type of posts? :D

[mickey]

IronFist,

If you did that, you would definitely have to become a moderator. I'd be the first to vote for you.

mickey

[IronFist]

Wrong, idiot!

GOSH!

:D

[mickey]

Ouchhhh!

Everyone...


He's Baaaaaaaaack.


Run for cover. :)

Take Care,

mickey