Ho Chun

[shirkers1]

Any one ever heard of these guys? I was wondering if there was any footage out there besides the old black and white footage of gm chang. Any thing of gene chicoine fighting? Or any of their current students? I know that they think they are the greatest fighting school and art ever to grace this earth. I was just wondering if there was any one who has seen for themselves their destructive powers?

http://www.shuaichiao.com/


I know where I stand on their alledged dominance but I was wondering what other thought.

[SevenStar]

monkeyslaptoo will have some input.

[shirkers1]

Is monkeyslap one of these guys? I looked into his profile and it didn't say where he trained.

[ewallace]

not sure about who they are, but that website is awful.

[shirkers1]

I guess I should elaborate my questioning. How could one judge their style as the greatest combat art ever just because some cat back in the day won a tourney? Or that a style in general is the ultimate fighting art period? Come on now. The fighter makes the fight not the style. I'm not even going into the whole nonsense of personal/political slamming of all other shuai schools that flood this site.... Frankly the only footage I've seen is some staged performances from the 60's and 70's of GM chang and I wasn't convinced this is the greatest fighting art that is known to man.

some quotes from the site.
"To any of those mentioned, if G.M. Chicoine is wrong, then there is really only one way to settle this disagreement. We are sure that you people know what way that is".

Isn't this guy a little old to be accepting challanges? I don't see any thing showing their modern students, everything is about chicoine and all the photos are from decades ago..

just wondering, there are some bold statements made on that site.

"Shuai Chiao would remain the most feared combat style and always be impossible to defeat in real fighting. Here again in victory, Shuai Chiao will be the ones who walk away".

[fa_jing]

I think they are a splinter group. Not the only Shuai-Chiao. But, I think GM Chang's Shuai-Chiao is one of the most devestating arts around. Plus, you can fit it into a primarily striking style to help you with your throws.

[SevenStar]

definitely

[dezhen2001]

wow, politics galore i guess :)
awful use of popups though.

[shirkers1]

http://emptyflower.stanford.edu/johnwang1.html

I've seen these vids of gm chang. I agree that shuai is effective in throwing, most styles that have throwing have the same principles mine included. Being that there is only so many ways to throw someone correctly, that is pretty much a given. But to make the claims that are being made I find it laughable.

Just wondering if there was any footage of "combat shuai" that these guys are doing now. If it's so effective why train in other styles?

[fa_jing]

dood, is this the first time you've heard of a martial art claiming to be "the best"?

[shirkers1]

Dude I'm not your dood... Just kidding.

No it's not the first time and it won't be the last. But I know first hand that these guys think they are the greatest thing out there, you can read that for yourself. I know for a fact that they aren't, and I could really care less about what they think. I know locally they have some mystique surrounding them and their past, as well as local harrassment by them against other schools. But I still have yet to see anything showing why they are the ultimate combat fighting school.

I was wondering what others thought of their site and if there was any footage of what they had to offer. Recent footage of their current students. Seems to me that if you have a quality system to promote the best thing to do is promote in a positive way. SHOW what is so good, not negatively put everything else around down including your own style and other schools.

[SevenStar]

http://emptyflower.stanford.edu/johnwang1.html

I've seen these vids of gm chang. I agree that shuai is effective in throwing, most styles that have throwing have the same principles mine included. Being that there is only so many ways to throw someone correctly, that is pretty much a given. But to make the claims that are being made I find it laughable.

Just wondering if there was any footage of "combat shuai" that these guys are doing now. If it's so effective why train in other styles?


the need to cross train exitsts in all styles, realistically. shuai chiao for example, lacks groundwork. I'm willing to bet mantis lacks any serious ground work as well, pointing out an area for you guys to cross train in. BJJ guys don't strike - the pure bjj guys who compete in events where striking is allowed cross train in striking arts.

As for you first comment, it's not about whether or not a style mere HAS throwing -that's not enough. shuai chiao guys spend 95% of their time training those throws. Anyone who does less will undoubtedly have weaker throwing skills than these guys.

[SevenStar]

not sure where you can find footage, but I know they have tourneys in akron. the texas guys compete at the taiji legacy if I'm not mistaken, and there are CSC instructors - guys who trained directly under CTS in georgia, texas, chicago...maybe next time you're in one of the areas, you can check them out.

as for political stuff - it's everywhere and is likely best just ignored.

[shirkers1]

Thanks for pointing out where I need to work more on.. :) We've had this discussion before and you know where I stand on it. We do train ground work, and as far as I'm concerned I need work on all of my game because you can never be good enough.. There is always someone better.


I was being sarcastic with the cross training. I know that and I agree with you mostly, some styles already have that built into their system so cross training isn't needed as much as others. Not to say you shouldn't be playing around with specialists from those backgrounds to test yourself though.

But read the quotes I posted from thier site. They are saying their "combat shuai is undefeated and impossible to defeat" Then why do they teach other styles MA at their school? I was just pointing out another statement by them that made no sense at all.

According to their site no other Shuai school teaches combat shuai and is un official so I was wondering how say the Texas school or chicago schools felt about that? What does the akron school have that the other schools don't? We can all speculate, but I was hoping some of these guys or other shuai practitioners would chime in and give some answers if they check in on this forum.

As for footage I've seen fight footage of these guys and it's far from even good. So I was looking for some evidence of actually "winning" a fight maybe?

[SevenStar]

my bad, I gotcha now. I hate trying to interpret sarcasm over the net! :D

[shirkers1]

Yeah let me make it perfectly clear. I in no way think that my training or anyone's for that matter is the "most invincible fighting art/style" out there. I strongly feel that it boils down to the individual and the training that person gives themselves no matter the style. You fight how you train, and there is someone out there better period. Each of us chooses to ad tools to our arsenal and we use them. You have hook line, and stright line. Upper middle and lower lines of attack, no matter what style you train in it boils down to those facts. Ground or stand up it's all relative. Whatever fist, strike blah blah it all boils down to that. So I am completely against everything that is represented by this school... I've seen posts by their students on other sites that simply make me laugh out loud. Any one can be brave while walking around with 10 guys talking garbage to a 16 year old kid who trains a different style then them.... These are tactics used by so called invincible combat specialists... Brain washed is more like it.

[fa_jing]

I don't know nothing but what I've heard from some people I respect is that http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/acsca.html is the most authentic Shuai-Chiao in the states. If you could train with someone who trained with GM CTS in China for years, then why bother to believe someone else's claims that they are the best.

Still waiting for Monkeyslap Too, our resident SC expert on this.

[fa_jing]

oops, looks like Chiccione studied directly with GM CTS too.

[shirkers1]

Thanks fajing for posting the link

well in the news section, ho chun openly descredits pretty much that whole association as not being "real combat shuai".. But at least they have footage up showing what they have to offer, that's more than I can say about ho chun.

[SevenStar]

oops, looks like Chiccione studied directly with GM CTS too.


I think there's been some bad blood between him and the others though. I know there have been some posts about it, but since we lost them in the upgrade, I can't search for them.

[ewallace]

I think there's been some bad blood between him and the others though. I know there have been some posts about it, but since we lost them in the upgrade, I can't search for them.
Google 'em.

[kungfu cowboy]

Some things I picked up from people who have interacted with Chicoine or students on some level :

I've heard some stories about how they would go out to bars to pick fights as part of their training.

I've heard that their art is the real deal.

I've heard that their art is not the real deal.

And perhaps the most entertaining, I've heard it from a police friend and my co-worker whose ex used to work there at the adult theatre and toy shop owned by Mr. Chicoine himself. That's my favorite!

[shirkers1]

Yeah I know for a fact that some of them are bouncers. Bouncers are my favorite people in the world by the way.. (7* that was sarcasm :D )

What they do is they get jobs as bouncers and try their skills out on drunk people. That's a great way to test your skills... a completely sober person against a drunk stumbling fool. ...... (7* some more sarcasm for ya) Like I said.... lets lift some weights, walk around in packs of 10, pick fights with people who can't even stand up, that seems to be the M. O. of these guys. A big thumbs up to the invincible combat artists.... :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

Hey! Not all bouncers are bad - I'm about to become one.

[shirkers1]

7* bouncers have their place...


But in my experience. If you didn't have bouncers you wouldn't have as many fights at clubs and bars. If everyone knew there wasn't someone there to break up the fight then you'd have less people wanting to fight. 90% of the street fights I've been involved with, the bouncers and their friends were the people causing the fights.

Bouncers should be out watching everyone's car making sure no one is jacking stereos or keying them... but once again that is my opinion ..... :D

[stonewarrior67]

Howdy,
I hope this helps. Ho Chun is a closed door school, which means you dont show up with your months dues and expect to get trained. You have to be referred by someone who is in the school already and can vouch for your character. Once your accepted there, there is no contracts or expensive gi's to buy. The only thing that is promised there is sweat, pain and training like you never seen before...oh yes and a little blood from time to time. G/M Chicoine has stated that he is not in the business to make $ but to spread the knowledge of S/C and to make fighters. His dues barely keep the utilities paid at the school.
First of all the challenge on the web site you refer to are to a few different people who have claimed to be Changs named predesessors (sp?) People like Weng, Chema and Demara took advantage of Chang before and after his death, according to G/M Chicoine. Chang gave G/M Chicoine the throne to his Intenational S/C Assocation before his death in '86. All of Taiwan backs G/M Chicoine including life long Chang students Roger Soo and Jeng Shing Ping among others. Every couple of years G/M Chicoine takes his best students to Taiwan to train and to be trained. The Taiwanese Govt throwes him a parade in his honor with many dignataries and he is treated like royalty there. Chang was considered a national treasure there and they still respect his name and who he named to carry on S/C . G/M Chicoine and his students then they take a so called road trip to different S/C schools where they watch and give demonstrations, also allowing time to visit Changs burial site.
There is video around but not available to the public. G/M Chicoine could by all means run a flashy website and offer video's of all kind but again making $ is not his intent.
TX sifu David Pickens trained under G/M Chicoine and are on great terms. The derogatory remarks were meant to only those he felt jilted Chang. G/M Chicoine has allowed students to open schools under his tutledge in of course Ohio. California, Massachusets(i'm a horrible at spelling) along with a few other states.
All Ho Chun students think they are great...well of course they do...have you ever talked to a student from a martial arts school who thought that they weren't? Self confidence man!
G/M Chicoine fights (which I believe his last fight was in '98 or so) are closed door and a few of his top students also fight in this manner. Keep in mind this is the old style of school and the way training, fighting and such has not changed much since Chang renamed the school from Hop Sing to Ho Chun and reviewed what G/M Chicoine was teaching in the late '70's. Also, Check out Ohio States Shuai Chaio page and you can see one of G/M Chicoines students winning a couple of tounaments in the lt. heavy weight div. He won one or two years in a row I cant remember, his last name is Cio if you look.
As for myself I trained since I was little, first of course Tae Kwon Do, then I trained privately under a student of John Allens (GreenDragonStudio, Stow Ohio) and then with **** Pitts (Art of Desire) and was lucky enough to train under G/M Chicoine for about 8 years in the '90's and the training has stuck with me to this day. The only reason I left was having a wife and three kids were a bit much and the training is not only demanding on the body but of the time. (note: there's 4 kids now). I am a police officer of 16 years and teach other police officers defensive tactics. With that said G/M Chicoine is going to turn 75 this summer and though I'm half his age there is no way in hades that I would stand in the same room with the man if he had it in for me. See those pics of him breaking breaks? They could be ribs =-)
G/M Chicoine is not only a great fighter and teacher but he is also a fine human being with a great old big old heart! My hat is eternally off to him.
I hope this helps some and keep training hard.
B.M.K.
Akron, Ohio

[stonewarrior67]

Yes, there was one or two guys who bounced for a year or two but to my knowledge they did not pick any fights or on any drunk slobs. I do do know they that they didn't back down from anyone picking a fight with them. These guys were not your average 6'04", 300 plus pound bouncers who'd make an obnoxious jerk think twice before starting something, they were around 6'00" under 200lbs normal looking guys who took the wrath of some deserving whack jobs before they pounded them.
Plus in the history there was also one or two crazy guys who would walk into a bar by themselves and start fighting the whole bar....not my idea of sane rationale...but they liked it.
S/C is being taught and used by Americas SP.
Again I hope this helps

[shirkers1]

Stone warrior, know a cat named Paul Hooper? He's a detective for the akron pd. He's actually the guy who got me started in chinese boxing 15 years ago....

[shirkers1]

Check the image attached, paul is on the far right. The other guys are akron pd as well.

Yes, I am enjoying the 95 degree weather right now. :D Yes that would more than likely be the same mike.... He trained with ong I believe when he was younger, I'm not positive on that though. I know that from what I've seen there wasn't much respect for what any of those guys have to offer MA wise. SC was one of the first things he did actually then he moved on to bigger and better things. ;) I know there has been some issues between some of those other schools because of this and I actually was dragged into the middle of it when I was younger because I trained under him. Straight out of a movie where challanges were made. I know a few of Ho Chuns X students work out with him now because of how things panned out so to speak when confrontations came to a head. ;) I stopped training with mike when they were out in barberton, I moved to phoenix and now teach out here.... I go back a few times during the year to train etc with him. As for bald guys there were a few guys in the class that were bald so you could be speaking about ed, doug or others. . :D

I had a friend that lived over at robert kraus's house so I know a few of ****ie pitts's guys too. I was over there a few times and watched them work out. Didn't really get along with them either, I seem to have a thing for guys who think their style is the greatest.... we see where that got pitts.. It seems like these schools tend to go around harrassing other schools, if you're so good then why worry about what other people are doing. Mind your self and you'll be fine. :rolleyes:

[Ho Chun]

I never meant for my name to become a thread, but since it has, here goes. I think Grandmaster Chang was very friendly with many Shuai Chiao people. I think that the next generation has had many problems and have created tention amongst the whole martial arts community. The next generation (myself included) is alot different.
In 1997 my Teacher, Grandmaster Gene L. Chicoine gave me permisson to open up a school. I have gained so much from him. I have been involved in the Chinese martial arts for 31 years, with him since 1989. Nothing improved my Kung Fu more than the specialized programs that I was taught, Iron Palm, Iron Vest, Muscle Restructure, Semen Retention, and Poison Hand.
Hsing-I is a very big part of the curriculum. I also give Hsing-I and Tai Chi alot of credit for taking my Kung-Fu to the level where it is today. Shuai Chiao is a very good style on it's own, but to quote Grandmaster Chicoine, "no man has ever become champion using only one style".
I think that the "air of aerogance" that people read into is there, and it shouldn't be, but it is. I say from experience, "that the information there is second to none" and again, this is from my 31 years of experience
Chinese exercises are done to enhance the fighters combat effectiveness. Arm grabs will develop a fighters punching power. Pull overs will increase your throwing strength. All of the Chinese strength development exercises when performed correctly with intensity and consistancy will give anyone an edge over their opponent.
Check out www.noweightsworkout.com

[mickey]

Greetings,

I had the opportunity to see Grandmaster Chicoine on the Iron Palm and Iron Vest videos put out by Green Dragon. I was most impressed by his standing brick break but even more impressed by the apparent dedication, care, and dilligence that he has put into his practice. Maybe he speaks strong because he has traveled the journey and it still continuing it. It may also be another way of saying that he has something special to share with you if you have the courage to come and get it.

mickey

[kungfu cowboy]

A Salty Scalawag! A Lovable Ruffian! A Heartwarming Hooligan! A Poodle in a Cardigan! I smell a new sitcom brewing...

[shirkers1]

Stone yeah, krauss went to school with my step dad so I knew of him growing up and hanging out with the biker gangs around town. He designed some of my step dads tattoos blah blah blah.. So I grew up fast so to speak hanging out with those crews in the neighborhood. :) It was in the late 90's when kraus was teaching out of the house in akron is when I was there visiting....

Here's my view on the whole mightier than thou talk. I'm happy with what I've been training in for the past 15 years because it suits me and fits into what I want to train in. The style itself is great and is very useful for what I want to do with it. Do I think it's the ultimate? No I don't think there is any ultimate invincible style. It boils down to the individual and how they train. A guy studying SC can have the floor mopped up by a Mantis guy. That doesn't mean mantis is better, just means that fighter was better on that day and had the tools to get it done. Vice versa. So confidence is one thing, smarts is another. No one should think they are the baddest mo fo in town. That's when johnny nobody comes and steals their soul in a street fight. I'm confident I can handle myself but I'm not so bold as to say I can whip anyone at anytime. :) That seems to be what I've been hearing for years. It makes me laugh...

Yeah email any time bro I'm always down for talking MA.

later.

[tigerharimau]

Once talked to Gene Chicone via phone. Old crankerous dude. Rude and just really had this attitude about SC, being the ultimate. Real turnoff. Known for bringing his students to other MAs schools, and challenging them. Had thier a$$es spanked a couple of times in this process.

[Dale Dugas]

I have met and trained with GM Chicoine here in Massachusetts. He is blunt, but not rude(at least not to me, but then I'm more like him and cannot tolerate clowns). He has a wealth of knowledge and skill that he can teach to you.

His Iron Hand is very good. I learned the procedure from him. It's not for the dillentantes. Heavy on the qi gong before and after.

You can say all you want. But when an Old School master like GM Chang Tung Sheng gives you, a caucasian, the whole system/association you created, that means something.

You do not have to like him. You just have to respect him for what he has done.

In Quincy,

Dale Dugas

[lotus storm]

I have been involved in the Chinese martial arts for 31 years...Nothing improved my Kung Fu more than the specialized programs that I was taught, Iron Palm, Iron Vest, Muscle Restructure, Semen Retention, and Poison Hand.
Hsing-I is a very big part of the curriculum. I also give Hsing-I and Tai Chi alot of credit for taking my Kung-Fu to the level where it is today.

...Chinese exercises are done to enhance the fighters combat effectiveness. Arm grabs will develop a fighters punching power. Pull overs will increase your throwing strength. All of the Chinese strength development exercises when performed correctly with intensity and consistancy will give anyone an edge over their opponent.

Ho Chun, I saw your post and wondered what your thoughts might be on the use of weight training as a substitute for such Chinese power programs as you have listed there.

I have done the Arm Grab program (appreciating the incredible hardening effects on the bridge surface of the forearm in addition to the external power increase and internal stimulation), am 8 months into the Iron Buddha and Goun Gee Kuen strength sets, and am still in the "learning" phases of becoming familiar with the Stone Warrior. I have only heard stories about and read about the Iron Palm (GM Chang's version, which if I am correct is the formula & format used by GM Chicoine), Muscle Change (esp part 2), semen pill program (to open the Atlas Gate?), and Poison Hand (is this the Advanced Iron Palm, differing set-up exercises & radically changed medicine?); I have seen Green Dragon's Iron Vest instructional video with GM Chicoine's demonstration of the 24 exercises etc but simply am not having the time to try to deal with that currently. Do they still do the public demonstration with the sledge hammer strikes to the upper back and torso? Not 'love taps' but hard enough to lift the Iron Vest trainee off the ground?

How is it possible for someone to undertake these programs sincerely and with honest effort and not obtain the internal effects? This is baffling to me as so many of these programs are designed for just this purpose, especially when it comes to use in actual Chinese style combat. The Stone Warrior, for example, if you are familiar with it (my understanding is that GM Chicoine chose to specialize on the Vest whereas Allen opted for the SW), is designated as a combined 'internal-external' program, that is you are not doing it merely for the strenght and power enhancements to your musculature but are also, from the first day you do the requried 36 reps minimum phase at the necessary tension levels and so forth you are also beginning to cultivate the chi!

The Stone Warrior is built of 21 exercises that are ALL fighting moves of some type ALONG WITH this build up and stimulation of the chi and its circulation along the meridians and axes (if I follow the teaching correctly). Is it not true that after a certain amount of time---3 years in this case?---the chi will begin to 'activate' in response to certain stimuli eg a combat attack? Driving, or at least greatly assisting, the muscles in working reflexively along the routes you've been training on every day ("You're only as good as what you can do reflexively." --- John Allen) and delivering the chi to the palms for use in combat defense & attack (like in a palm strike, for example Exercise # 13 of the SW)?

Are not the other programs mentioned meant to promote similar abilities, helping to account for the ultimate worth of such training over a certain number of years (along of course with drills forms stances and so forth)? As well as a various number of solid and compelling reasons why these programs are superior, particularly from a combat perspective, to any sort of weight training substitute?

I know that the Arm Grab program alone definitely produced great gains in arm strength, hardening, and endurance for me that weights simply would not have. Of course it would have been impossible to see this coming until I was more than halfway through the program---takes a while to really 'kick in' and start hardening and seriously strengthening the arms and shoulders but then boy does it ever!---but in the long run it worked (and I had done quite a bit of weights before then).

So isn't one of the key "secrets" to these Chinese programs, assuming one has received the correct training specifications for them, simply that: few people will ever stick to them once they find out how hard they really are? In your experience and opinion?

Also, do you think that the general lack of familiarity with true Chinese fighting principles and methods as well as absence of exposure to advanced Chinese sets and power programs that actually build the chi for use in fighting might go a long way to explaining why you find so much criticism about the way schools like Green Dragon and the Ho Chun school execute their Tai Chi (and other internal systems, styles, etc) in forums like this one?

Your input on this subject would be much appreciated, as you would seem to have solid real and extended experience with these types of hard, 'authentic' Chinese training regimens.

thnx in advance---lotus storm.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Well, I generally say out of politics as much as possible, but here are my observations:

Gene Chicoine was given leadership of the ISCA - not as a lifetime 'grandmastership' but as a 'president' - because he promised to make Shuai Chiao as popular as Judo or TKD. Instead, GC claimed all sors of crazy stuff: master of All Shuai Chiao is like saying 'master of all greco-roman wrestling. It's an ignorant statement designed to impress rubes. If he wanted to claim being a master of Chang shia Shuai Chiao, that's another debate - or learning from the master of ''all pa kua" - again the claims on his site seem to be directed at the ignorant to impress them. But the rest of us just laugh.

During my competitive time in Shuai Chiao - about '86-'96 GC and his group were repeatedly invited to come and play - they always refused. Which is NOT tradition in Shuai Chiao. You'd think at least one would show up. After all, Shuai Chiao is reknowned for it's fighting - stand-up wrestling traditionally, and free-fighting in Chang style.

Another big myth propogated is that Shuai Chiao is the 'mount everest' of martial arts and not for sport. Someone should have told GM Chang he shouldn't have been competeing. Competition is the key to unlocking your shuai fa. Without it, you don't have 'it.' "Black hand' techniques can be inserted easily if you have good shuai fa.

I've watched many of the Green Dragon tapes - there is some good stuff in there, but not the SC demonstrated by GC. Most of the other stuff I've seen on those tapes is so off it is laughable - sorry, but Shaolin Do comes to mind - many forms devoid of the training/knowledge that make them ehat they are.

Going back to GC - his lack of demo does not disqualify him, but his movement on the demos is average at best. His Iron Palm and stuff is probably pretty good, but I'm talking about SC here.

Having known several of CTS friends, the general concensus is that GC was given a political appointment, and he was suppossed to listen to those with more actual experience than him. He chose otherwise, but if the other rumors I hear about his means of income are accurate, this behavior is no surprise.

His website is so bombastic, that it makes me think about the saying 'the empty barrell makes the most noise.'

Oh, go ahead and get angry with me all you want, but if you a.) make just stupid claims all the time, and b.) don't prove them, don't be surprised if you are looked at cross-eyed.

I could always be wrong, but one must speak out when someone works so hard to make the art I love look stupid.

[shirkers1]

Monkeyslap...

thanks for the response... I've been waiting to here what you had to say being that you are from a SC background. I have respect for "good" SC. I don't have respect for what GC is doing and how they've gone about promoting themselves for years. I know there is actual "tourney" footage out there of these guys getting their asses handed to them. As a matter of fact I still have yet to hear or see for myself any of their students worth a grain salt in combat period. There are people out there that see the garbage and know it's there...

So as a political front I agree it's worthless and I don't like to get involved either, I think it's a waste of time on all fronts.... But as a combat effective aspect, for such bold statements to be made and nothing to show for it I'm just amazed that they're still around. I really thought that in todays world of information that people would wise up and see what's good and what's bad... But maybe by keeping closed doors like they do they can keep people brainwashed into thinking they have something worth training. :rolleyes:

[Ho Chun]

Lotus Storm,

Sorry if I don't answer all of your questions. First, I know nothing of Stone Warrior, I now see it being sold on various websites. Teacher (GM Chicoine) says that it is something that John Allen made up. I don't know.

Something that I have been told from the start is this, when using weights always keep it 60% Chinese exercises and 40% weights.
Teacher told me that GM Chang said "you'll reach a peak in your training when all you can do is come down, weights will keep you at your peak longer". When I asked Teacher when did he start to weight train, he told me that he was in his mid-fifties.

The Chinese Power Exercises build the tendons and ligaments. I see weight lifting building the "belly" of the muscle. Then as the belly of the muscle gets bigger and stronger weight is increased. Now here comes the dangers...the supporters (tendons and ligaments) aren't strong enough to support the weight. Tears and injuries occur. Tears and injuries can occur doing anything, but I believe in strengthening the supporters, especially in children.

I hope this helps

[MonkeySlap Too]

Shirker, one of my teachers once said "The only reason for a closed door system is so you can smell the teachers ****s."

Secrecy is outmoded. Morals isn't, of course there are people I won't teach, but for decent folks the door is always open. I can never understand why any American would care to recreate confucuionist cult mentalities. I don't like cults, and don't like hanging around with people who want to join them.

I'd be interested in seeing that footage. I have friends in Taiwan, but we rarely speak, and when we do, GC isn't a topic, as I just don't think about them much. They remind me of Shaolin Do, which is sad.

There is plenty of good Shuai Chiao out there, but buyer beware as one thing GC is correct about is the amount of fraud - ah, the pot calling...

[Ho Chun]

Wow, What can I say. I love my father to death, but most of what you say is the truth. He has said on several occasions that there are others who have better Shuai Chiao than he. But, he has also said (and I've posted this before) that GM Chang said, "no man can become champion using only one style". I think that is why GM Chang trusted him to run his organization.

Personally I take students to tournaments, if that's what they want. I took some students to the Great Lakes Tournament in Cleveland, Oh. And it was complete dominance. Although if coaching were not allowed, my students wouldn't have won. What happened was my students were getting caught up in the "judo like" Shuai Chiao. When I yelled at them to do the SC the way we do it, it was very easy for them to win.

In my opinion I do think that Shuai Chiao has been let down, in a way. I think that the way my Teacher handles things are wrong. I think that it is very difficult to tell him things, he has a very stubborn way. But with 31 years in the martial arts, almost 20 with him, I haven't seen too much that compares to the knowledge that he has, and I have been around.

As far as Shuai Chiao goes he gives respect to Hsing Jing Ping and to David Lin (of Atlanta, GA.) He feels as though both of these men have awsome Shuai Chiao and have trained with GM Chang long enough to make any claims that they would choose to make. The others he feels as though they have used GM Chang's name to build theirselves up.

I hope this helps

[Jhapa]

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/acsca.html is the most authentic Shuai-Chiao in the states. ........GM CTS....

Still waiting for Monkeyslap Too, our resident SC expert on this.

http://www.shuaichiao.com/


isn't GM Chang the grandmaster for both organization, just different students branched off and created there own shuai-chiao organization.

[SevenStar]

he feels that way about john wang and brian wu?

[MonkeySlap Too]

He was also rude to David Lin (Atlanta) until I pointed it out to David Lin. Then the screed on the web site changed. David lin has an interesting background, making even the most ambitious or belligerent players be polite.

I'd love to see the record of the tournament and what schools fought.

I assume you are talking about Daniel Weng when you mention 'judo' style, as his background does influence him.

Honestly, I can't say much beyond the videos, as the Ho Chun school always refused to show at any midwest tournament while I was competeing. But what I've seen in the magazines and on video is not very impressive.

I can always be covinced otherwise, but based on past and current childish behavior, I'm not holding my breath.

Is it true what was posted - does GC own a p0rn shop? I'd heard he was a gangster, but I didn't know about the p0rn... If it is not true, please clear it up right away...

[Ho Chun]

I don't know how he feels about John Wang, and I have never heard of Brian Wu.

I think when the letter was posted on Teacher's website he just put on there David Lin. He was referring to the David Lin of New York not of Atlanta, so I don't think he was ever trying to be rude to him.

I don't know who all was at the tourny in Cleveland, (makes no difference to me) It was a tournament that one of Daniel Wang's students was promoting. So, maybe everyone there was from his USSCA or maybe not.

I've only seen 1 or 2 videos (green dragon) if these are the videos that you are referring to? I was not impressed by anything that I saw. When John Allen and Gene Chicoine wrote for Inside Kung Fu, I could barely get through Allen's articles, they bored me. I was always impressed with Chicoine, though. Although, before I joined the Ho Chun school, I sparred with a couple of their students. It was very easy to beat them. To this day, I believe that Teacher can only teach at a "college" level. Most students, unless they have a very good base in the Chinese martial arts won't understand the teaching.

As for what Teacher owns, that's his business, I don't judge.

I hope this helps

[Dale Dugas]

Ho Chun makes good points about people. No need to judge their personal life or business holdings unless you want people walking around you and your stuff with a microscope as well.

I have heard other martial arts people talk about Stone Warrior, and its apparent lack of credibility nor any other people who have heard of it or practice it.

GM Chicoine has one of the best Iron Hand programs out there. It has microcosmic work as well as strength training built into the exercises you must do before you even start hitting the bag. It works for I have been training on it for over a year.

No one ever jumped down Brian Gray's throat when he claimed to be the ole high and mighty father of American Iron Palm, at least that was how he was calling himself.

Please, Gray cannot even compare. Most people have no idea what they are seeing when they are looking at what GM Chicoine is teaching.

Like Ho Chun said, "Teacher(GM Chicoine) teaches graduate level martial arts".

The man has some decent programs and material to teach.

Like anyone else you should go see with your own eyes, ears and see what the man is about. I have, and he has my respect.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[M.C. Busman]

I don't know about the Taiwanese government throwing parades--the most recent photos on the ISCA website appear to be over 10 years old. Mr. Chicoine's own statements on the Ho Chun website under the "News" section http://www.shuaichiao.com/ suggest he thinks/thought being appointed President of the International Shuai Chiao Association by Cheng, and being given rank by the Taiwanese Shuai Chiao group entitled him to unquestioned headmastery over ALL Shuai Chiao--including his seniors in Taiwan! He was corrected a few years back by Chang Tung-sheng's grandson, David Chang, who actually posted a statement on the internet as a result of Gene Chicoine's continuous baiting. You can read David Chang's words yourself at: http://www.changshuaichiao.com/dc_statement.htm

David Chang points out the logical, that "...it was simply not possible for him [Chang Tung-sheng] to teach the highest levels of shuai chiao, fist forms, and chi kung to any foreigners due to language and time constraints. [...]" While David Chang doesn't specifically name this "...one foreigner who has spread false information on the Internet.", it is evident he is speaking of Chicoine.

Another Taiwanese Shuai Chiao teacher was also not impressed by the posturing was Chu Yu-lung, whose partial translated statement can be read here: http://www.changshuaichiao.com/english_translation.htm

David Chang was the one man who didn't need to become a disciple or an adopted son to carry on the teachings of Chang Tung-sheng. He is the man's grandson, and he is supported by the senior Shuai Chiao disciples of Taiwan--men who learned with Chang Tung-sheng for YEAR! It is astounding that someone without thorough knowledge of the language or culture would try to bring others "in line" by trying to discredit blood relations and known legitimate long-time students/disciples who had special relationships with Chang Tung-sheng.

Criticizing everyone else in the Shuai Chiao universe lets Chicoine off the hook in terms of establishing and running a REAL functional international organization as he promised Grandmaster Chang. Now Gene Chicoine is free to blame Taiwan and say that all have turned against him--pick your reason. And he can go back to teaching poison/black hand arts and alluding to secrets he may or may not parse out to a select few loyalists if he chooses, should he feel the time is ever right.

It appears Mr. Chicoine has left Shuai Chiao, and not the other way around. Maybe his website needs updating?


M.C. Busman

[Ho Chun]

[QUOTE=M.C. Busman]
And he can go back to teaching poison/black hand arts and alluding to secrets he may or may not parse out to a select few loyalists if he chooses, should he feel the time is ever right.


Wow M.C. Busman, you appear to know quite abit about the I.S.C.A.
Were you a student of Chicoine's??

[lotus storm]

Wow M.C. Busman, you appear to know quite abit about the I.S.C.A.
Were you a student of Chicoine's??

Or is this all speculation, hearsay, assumption?


posturing

You know this?


Criticizing everyone else in the Shuai Chiao universe

Then are the other posters lying or misinformed? Some have written that Chicoine does NOT criticise "everyone" else, in fact has good relations with many and supports them as they support him (R Pickens being one singled out).

??? Who is really doing this "posturing" and mudslinging wihtout good base in fact? Or is the actual person, or group, with the personal agenda---or vendetta? You are of superior credibility---why?


known legitimate long-time students/disciples who had special relationships with Chang Tung-sheng

"known" by who? Can you differentiate between "legitimate" kung fu material and Chang's "true" teachings---and politics or propaganda?

[M.C. Busman]

Ho Chun wrote: "Wow M.C. Busman, you appear to know quite abit about the I.S.C.A. [....]

Yes. I've been following the dissemination of the art of SC for almost 30 years.

Ho Chun asked: "Were you a student of Chicoine's??"

No. Nor one of any of his..."competitors".

Lotus Storm wrote: "Then are the other posters lying or misinformed? Some have written that Chicoine does NOT criticise "everyone" else, in fact has good relations with many and supports them as they support him (R Pickens being one singled out).[...] ??? Who is really doing this "posturing" and mudslinging wihtout good base in fact? Or is the actual person, or group, with the personal agenda---or vendetta? You are of superior credibility---why?"

I don't expect anyone to just take my word for it. The facts speak for themselves. I will give more specific directions. You may draw your own conclusions after due consideration. Take another look at the ISCA website http://www.shuaichiao.com/ . Go to the top right hand corner tab, labeled "News". Click on that. Read the article entitled "The Illegitimate of Shuai Chiao". An example is the criticism of David Chang (grandson of the GM) among many others:

"It is impossible for David Chang to have learned in such a short time what took his grandfather decades of full time training under approximately 70 different teachers."

Most surprising is Chicoine's assumption of awareness regarding GM Chang's relationships with his longtime Taiwanese disciples, and Chang's own family members! It seems rather presumptuous to make such statements as the one above regarding David Chang. The fact that all of the old Chang-lineage Taiwanese SC teachers have fallen under the umbrella of David Chang means something. That David Chang would issue a statement like the one at http://www.changshuaichiao.com/dc_statement.htm means something Maybe Gene Chicoine didn't understand that Taiwan didn't fall under the command of his ISCA (an org meant for foreigners), and that their promotion of him was a sign of good faith meant to speed the spread of SC throughout the world (or at least Taiwan's ally, the USA). Or maybe he just felt too threatened by other teachers to focus on spreading the art.

I cannot believe that Mr. Chicoine was close enough to the Chang's to have known everything about that family and its functionings, or GM Chang's personal relationships with other disciples and students. Especially when considering that Chicoine was/is faced with two major barriers: language and culture. And yet we're supposed to believe that Gene Chicoine somehow learned all of Shuai Chiao after a few stays in Taiwan and GM Chang's visit to the US? How much actual time did Chicoine spent with Chang compared to Chang's Taiwanese students and family? There are other problems in regard to this...

Gene Chicoine appears to be a real pistol. Obviously he is skilled, and his skill and social position led him to be one of a very few non-Taiwanese selected by GM Chang to promote Shuai Chiao to the world. Since that time though, how has he advanced SC? And since he himself calls into question the abilities and competition records of other SC teachers of some repute, what matches, where and with whom did Chicoine actually fight in competiton, in Taiwan or here? Where are Chicoine's records?

No one can dispute that GM Chang gave Gene Chicoine the responsibility of bringing Shuai Chiao to the world. Before Chang's death the ISCA was a constitutional organization which included a number of (non-Taiwanese national) men who had also studied with GM Chang to varying degrees. After Chang's death, Chicoine began to purge the ISCA. The result? More energy spent defending against/ criticizing other schools, less time promoting Shuai Chiao. As a result of this, the ISCA has never really taken off as a strong organization in the US or overseas. This has hurt SC.


M.C. Busman

[lotus storm]

Most surprising is Chicoine's assumption of awareness regarding GM Chang's relationships with his longtime Taiwanese disciples, and Chang's own family members! It seems rather presumptuous to make such statements as the one above regarding David Chang.

Perhaps Chang was the source of Chicoine information of this? Possible?


As a result of this, the ISCA has never really taken off as a strong organization in the US or overseas. This has hurt SC

Chang's art SC or the sport SC he detested? Possible that Chicoine IS acting as Chang wished?


Or maybe he just felt too threatened by other teachers to focus on spreading the art

Doubtful. http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-1860.html

To answer a few of MonkeySlap's questions. Chicoine did start out as a karate guy at age 16 (1946) while part of the US Occupational forces. Upon returning to Ohio he started teaching karate and eventually started learning kung fu(early 50's, so that'd make him 20ish, not really late in life). First from Femon Ong, then various others in Taiwan and China I think. Eventually, he became Chang's disciple(1978)and studied under him and Chang's kungfu brother Grandmaster Wang. As far as his fighting ability, he actually beat David Lin in a friendly challenge. He has proven himself many times in challenges, but most people never get to hear about such things. If I recall correctly, seven challenges were made after he became ISCA president, he won them all. He still fights regularly.
As far as competition goes, Chicoine did lots of fighting in Taiwan back in the 70's and 80's. When Chang was still alive, his school did compete in tournaments. However, Chang always stressed to him the importance of not letting sport *******ize the art.

He learned Shuai Chiao, various styles of Hsing I, Tai Chi from Chang. I think he learned Lohan and Pakua from him too, but he may have learned them from someone else previously. He also learned Hsing I from GM Wang, tho Chang often would change small things that Wang had taught him.


How much actual time did Chicoine spent with Chang compared to Chang's Taiwanese students and family?

Hmmm. I have heard an explanation for this, and now here is where politics comes in. I contacted a few people for corroboration (of not just this point in the final 'quote' box but the several others as well) of some things. I was advised (no not threatened, just to avoid needless argument that won't be settled in a bb forum as I do not have ALL the information) that it would be best to post the above link (note that 'falconer' disappears) and say only: consider the possiblity that Chang concluded that it could be left neither to his Chinese contemporaries nor even his own grandson to be trusted with preserving and carrying on his precious art (which was his life, afterall); and that he decided a radical solution might be required to salvage what knowledge he had that there was still time to pass along.

Chicoine made several stern public challenges for a time (that still stand, I am told), no one mentionied in the link you gave ever came forth to meet him---at least, not to reveal the results publicly if such contests did occur.

Why was Chicoine the highest rank in SC---anywhere---aside from Chang himself---while Chang was still alive---if Chicouine is simply "posturing"? Was this for mere appearance? Political? If so, then what was Chang really about that so many who knew his belief and abilities took him so seriously?

Is it possible that certain others---not Chicoine---were waiting to do things their own way once chang was dead; and Chicoine's seemingly strange behaviors as far as SC & ISCA were a result of heading this off?


the facts speak for themselves

Do they? I seem to find a lot of assuming and presuming and "reading into" in your interpreting.

Respectfully---lotus storm

[M.C. Busman]

Perhaps Chang was the source of Chicoine information of this? Possible? [....]
[after "The Facts Speak for Themselves" at the end]
Do they? I seem to find a lot of assuming and presuming and "reading into" in your interpreting.

Come on. You can't have it both ways, lotus storm. Who is presuming and reading into what by guessing about sources, intent, etc? Gene Chicoine's comments are out there on his own site! You asked, I showed. Gene Chicoine is the one blustering about challenge matches. The one criticizing virtually every other Shuai Chiao man (or anyone else who ever met Chang Tung-sheng for that matter) out there! Yet Chicoine offers nothing in the way of proof of matches, time in training, etc?


Chang's art SC or the sport SC he detested? Possible that Chicoine IS acting as Chang wished?

Possible?!! I don't know! Is that what you wish to believe? It is documented that Chang Tung-sheng won a couple national contests in that "sport SC he detested" as a younger man. And on his site Chicoine criticized David Chang...FOR NOT HAVING BEEN IN COMPETITION!!! The sport aspect has always been part of SC! Consider the cereminial garb of the loin-clothed wrestlers on the tombs...


To answer a few of MonkeySlap's questions. Chicoine did start out as a karate guy at age 16 (1946) while part of the US Occupational forces. Upon returning to Ohio he started teaching karate and eventually started learning kung fu(early 50's, so that'd make him 20ish, not really late in life). First from Femon Ong, then various others in Taiwan and China I think. Eventually, he became Chang's disciple(1978)and studied under him and Chang's kungfu brother Grandmaster Wang. As far as his fighting ability, he actually beat David Lin in a friendly challenge. He has proven himself many times in challenges, but most people never get to hear about such things. If I recall correctly, seven challenges were made after he became ISCA president, he won them all. He still fights regularly.

More questions: With whom/what style of karate did Chicoine study while in the service in Japan? Men who studied in Japan at the time were rare. This would make Chicoine one of the pioneers of Japanese karate, along with Walter Todd and (possibly) Robert Trias. In what art was he ranked 7th dan out of Hong Kong...and by whom? Who did Chicoine fight in challenge matches in Taiwan, in the USA, and as ISCA president? More "friendly matches", students, subordinates, or people from rival organizations? Chang's matches were public and documented--no hiding, no secrets. Just hard training and fierce fighting. Why the secrecy here?


As far as competition goes, Chicoine did lots of fighting in Taiwan back in the 70's and 80's. When Chang was still alive, his school did compete in tournaments. However, Chang always stressed to him the importance of not letting sport *******ize the art.

Yes, Chang's school did compete in tournaments...still does. Competition has always been part of SC! WHO did Chicoine fight in Taiwan? When? Was this a real competition, or a "school match"? Why is this info so difficult to come by, so unspecific? Are there clippings from Chinese magazines, newspapers? To paraphrase you lotus storm...are we to rely only upon [Gene Chicoine's] word? Or your guesses about what Chang Tung-sheng *MIGHT* possibly have intended? Where is Chicoine's proof, where are his references?


He learned Shuai Chiao, various styles of Hsing I, Tai Chi from Chang. I think he learned Lohan and Pakua from him too, but he may have learned them from someone else previously. He also learned Hsing I from GM Wang, tho Chang often would change small things that Wang had taught him.

Again...how long did Chicoine train with Chang, when? Can entire arts be transmitted in a few week/month long cram sessions? How did Mr. Chicoine deal with the language barrier...was anything lost or misinterpreted in translation?


Hmmm. I have heard an explanation for this, and now here is where politics comes in. I contacted a few people for corroboration (of not just this point in the final 'quote' box but the several others as well) of some things. I was advised (no not threatened, just to avoid needless argument that won't be settled in a bb forum as I do not have ALL the information) that it would be best to post the above link (note that 'falconer' disappears) and say only: consider the possiblity that Chang concluded that it could be left neither to his Chinese contemporaries nor even his own grandson to be trusted with preserving and carrying on his precious art (which was his life, afterall); and that he decided a radical solution might be required to salvage what knowledge he had that there was still time to pass along.

Politics aside, what is the source of this theory? Someone who knew Chang personally (who)? Or is this just the most likely explanation for someone who wishes to believe Chicoine has done no wrong? Does it really seem reasonable that Chang Tung-sheng would forsake family and long-term disciples for a man who did not speak his language and didn't have the long-term experience in that art--and not be specific about intending to hand over Authority Over The Entire System? When Chang died, he and Chicoine had had teacher-disciple relationship for only about 8 years...when they were actually together training. Had he wished to make Chicoine the unquestioned GM of SC, surely he could have done that specifically by placing Taiwan under the umbrella of the ISCA...not the other way around?

[continued]

[M.C. Busman]

Chicoine made several stern public challenges for a time (that still stand, I am told), no one mentionied in the link you gave ever came forth to meet him---at least, not to reveal the results publicly if such contests did occur.

Yes. How nice. He had 7 challenge matches...but neither he or the cghallengers came forward? Just who were they, and what were the circumstances...or are these not known as fact yet? Did they happen or didn't they?!! Beat a 75 year old man, or be defeated by a 75 year old man--you lose either way. There is nothing to gain with such a "challenge". Chicoine is no Chang Tung-sheng.


Why was Chicoine the highest rank in SC---anywhere---aside from Chang himself---while Chang was still alive---if Chicouine is simply "posturing"? Was this for mere appearance? Political? If so, then what was Chang really about that so many who knew his belief and abilities took him so seriously?

Since you're guessing, I'll venture one of my own--personally I believe it was political. The same reason many American practitioners of Okinawa Karate (especially Tatsuo Shimabuku's Isshin-ryu) returned to the states after their military duties with 6th-9th dan rank--after 1-2 years study!!! And...how seriously did Taiwan take the ISCA in respect to their own power base? Did they consult Gene Chicoine about who to place as the next Shuai Chiao instructor of the Taiwan Police College? Initially Taiwan supported Chicoine. The support faltered when Chicoine Wrongly criticized skilled and recognized men. An outsider should tread lightly. Even more so an outsider who has been entrusted with a great responsibility.


Is it possible that certain others---not Chicoine---were waiting to do things their own way once chang was dead; and Chicoine's seemingly strange behaviors as far as SC & ISCA were a result of heading this off?

That is the problem...so many things are possible...but Gene Chicoine is the only one behaving strangely! For Gene's version of events (at least the one he alludes to without being too specific) to be true, just about EVERYONE ELSE in the SC universe would have had to turn against him...everyone else in the SC universe is unskilles, false, a pretender...why?

Now here is the sad predicament: Gene Chicoine is obviously a tough hard-working martial artist, a true old head in the USA. I don't think for a second after reading all of his writings and speaking to his students that this man is a wallflower or a pretender. Wherever his training began, however long he trained in SC and/or other arts, I have no doubt he picked up the material and practiced like a maniac until he thought he had it right. He has, or had at one time, resources available to promote SC. BUT...he has this huge barrier standing in the way. Call it ego, control issues, fear, jealousy, righteousness, whatever...he doesn't seem to play well with others. ANY others at all. This is NOT going to benefit Shuai Chiao. This is NOT how to promote a good art with an ancient history. Chang reached out to others--including foreigners who didn't speak his language, he dropped pretentiousness and "secrets" B.S. all together.

It has been almost 15 years...Taiwan has put its sponsorship behind other US Shuai Ciao teachers who are making an effort to spread the art--in spite of what one can still read on the Ho Chun website. Others schools are actively competing interntionally, as Taiwanese schools did when Chang was alive. Chang was not a secretive, closed-door teacher who parsed out bits here and there. His "secrets" were out in the open--hard, repetitive, exhausting training. Even Robert Smith in "Chinese Boxing:Masters and Methods" writes about this (see pages 64-67, 1974:Kodansha).

My Hope is that Mr. Chicoine will come to his senses. Right now he does not appear to be building a path that will last...so other routes have sprung up. He had the ISCA handed to him...and has been fumbling it about since. Chang Tung-sheng 's path however, is very alive, maintained by the students in Taiwan, and the very legitimate students in other nations including the USA. Given the history of the ISCA thusfar however, I am doubtful. This was supposed to be an INTERNATIONAL org. Instead, through manouvering and purges, it has been turned into one man's private association.

Unbelievable.


M.C. Busman

[fa_jing]

"One time when G.M. Chang was watching Master Chicoine fight in a no rules situation, he stated that here was absolutely no one alive that even knew one half of the Shuai Chiao he had attained, including his brother in Mainland China. This statement did not even account for the many Internal and Moslem styles that he also had mastered!"

Who's this, the brother that CTS had stated was better than himself, but lacked the mean streak? Quite a statement. N.F.W.

[Ho Chun]

GM Chicoine has said on numerous occasions that there are plenty of Shuai Chiao people that are better than him (strickly using nothing but Shuai Chiao) He has said numerous times that in his opinion there is nobody as knowledgable in Shuai Chiao and Chin Na in the world, than Jeng Jing Ping, of New York.

Teacher has always openly said these things, but there has to be a good reason for GM Chang to have made him the Vice-President of the ISCA (while he was living) and then to publicly promote him to the rank of 9th Degree Black Belt (putting Teacher right next to him, for the World to see). And then to hand over the raines of the ISCA at the time of his death.

My personal opinion here is: GM Chang wanted the Head if the ISCA to be undefeatable, which has been accomplished. Weather he fought in those "challenge" matches, or if they never happened, the Head of the ISCA has never been beat.

M.C. Busman, you bring up very very good points, so to use one of your points, Robert Smith, wrote in his book, Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods, Mr. Smith said that in his opinion Shuai Chiao has not, nor will it ever evolve. My question is; how can it evolve?

Shuai Chiao is a very brutal fighting art. I don't think it is for the masses. I think freeplaying in Shuai Chiao is needed, but to a minimum, or it's no different than point fighting at tournaments. I think bad habits can be formed with too much freeplaying. The Art has never evolved, and should never evolve, in my opinion. Shuai Chiao beauty is in the brutality.

I think Gene L. Chicoine, has allowed Shuai Chiao to stay in it's purest form, I think that David Chang, has done his grandfather proud, he has been doing a very good job promoting Shuai Chiao, so has Jeng Jing Ping, David Lin, John Wang, even Daniel Weng. All of these men have been doing Shuai Chiao good, in their own way. Gene Chicoine's way is very different, very harsh, but it's been the way he has thought to best serve his Father, and his Father's Art. I can honestly say that I don't always agree with the way he says things, or the way he handles things, but he has done Shuai Chiao good.

I hope this helps
www.noweightsworkout.com

[lotus storm]

M.C. Busman, YouKnowWho, Ho Chun, thank you very much for the feedback.

Interesting.

Respectfully---lotus storm.

[Dale Dugas]

Funny that mc politicalman seems to want to bust aggies over all this stuff.

Kudos to Ho Chun, and youknowwho and Lotus Storm for showing some decent Wu De/Mo Duk in responding to the mud being flung.

Chang gave Master Chicoine the keys to the ISCA. enough said in my book.

You don't like it, so what. Train your stuff and be done with it then.

Unless you have some OCD about it. Then your up a creek without a paddle.

Great to see all the Shuai Jiao people teaching.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[M.C. Busman]

"One time when G.M. Chang was watching Master Chicoine fight in a no rules situation, he stated that here was absolutely no one alive that even knew one half of the Shuai Chiao he had attained, including his brother in Mainland China. This statement did not even account for the many Internal and Moslem styles that he also had mastered!"

Chang was referring to his opinion of his own skills & not Chicoine's--assuming he was paraphrased correctly. The ref to "Moslem styles" is a hint.


M.C. Busman, you bring up very very good points, so to use one of your points, Robert Smith, wrote in his book, Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods, Mr. Smith said that in his opinion Shuai Chiao has not, nor will it ever evolve. My question is; how can it evolve?

Hmm. I don't know if it needs to. Smith said, "Although [Shuai Chiao] may have fathered judo, it has failed to keep pace with it" , and also, " As far as I know, it is not practiced at all in Southeast Asia. Shang lamented that the Nationalist [Taiwanese] government did little to promote it, but I believe that shuai chiao lost out simply because it had not evolved" (pg. 65). But...is it really necessary for SC to evolve? Smith singled out for criticism the breakfalls of SC in comparison to judo (Smith was an experienced judo student). Through his experience he found them ineffective, and opined that judo-style breakfalls were more practical. Since Judo was Smith's first MA, he was already used to the judo way of doing things. Would a SC man practicing judo for a year with a master teacher feel the same?

Technique wise, most of us know that any martial art that has a sport element, or even practice against another person has to adopt a degree of change -holding back in practice, tap outs, etc protect-thy-partner- for safety's sake. SC is a historic art...I personally do not believe change is necessary for proponents of historic martial arts. This is why they're arts w/ a history, and not just a hodge-podge of anything from anywhere. On the practical side, for arguement's sake, and in general...if a better method of breakfall, a more efficient way to throw/strike is tested and proven...is it BAD to include/replace w/ the "new way"? Isn't evolution part of MA too--whatever works? Chang Tung-sheng himself had many teachers, and is said to have changed things to suit a purpose.


Jing Hsin Ping's SC is good and there is no doubt about that, Jing had saved a woman away from a knife robbery in the street of NYC. Jing took the bad guy's knife away with only his bare hands. That took a lots of guts and join locking ability to be able to stand up and act as hero in a tough place like NYC. Jing's name was on the newspaper for his excellent behavior.

Apologies if this has already been posted...a true mensch in Jeng Hsin-ping: http://www.shuaijiao.net/
I hope we see more of Chang Tung-sheng's most senior student!


I have seen Chicoine's demo on his concret blocks striking in Ohio. His palm strike was real and there is no doubt about his CMA ability too.

No doubt, no denying. Gene Chicoine has skill. But if it isn't passed on, if the art is overshadowed and blotted out by the desire to jocky for position and attain recognition as THE one...


The meaning of "Ho Chun" means "be harmony and friendly with others" and I do believe the relationship between Ho Chun school and the rest of the SC community will get more harmony in the future. I believe that was GM Chang's last wish. After all, Chicoine is a nice and fun guy to be around as long as he is on your side.

What a wonderful name for a school. This is the tragedy, and what I find frustrating. Skill + Bullheaded = :( If Chang Tung-sheng was sending a message or hint to anyone, I'd be tempted to believe that Ho Chun was a guidepost not (yet!) followed. :( This is why the ISCA unnecessarily languishes. I don't want Chicoine to be just a footnote in MA history. That is why I am asking the questions and examining the issue like many others.


"Funny that mc politicalman seems to want to bust aggies over all this stuff."

I'm sorry the discussion hasn't remained at a level of inanity you can be comfortable with. You are free to take your name-calling and your "aggies" (?!!) and play in someone else's yard :)


:) Y'all Enjoy the Day, :)

M.C. Busman

[Dale Dugas]

MCBM,

Actually the level of this thread is not really in question. Unlike yourself, I can raise and lower at will depending on the people involved.

I did state in an earlier post that I wondered why you were all up in arms about this so-called situation.

You were the one to start slinging mud about GM Chicoine and other SC teachers. Great that Grandmaster Chang's grandson is wanting to pursue the "family" art. But the simple answer is this. GM Chang gave the ISCA to GM Chicoine, and not to any family member. That speaks volumes. Rant all you want. David Chang did not receive it and the people in Taiwan have not given it to him.

Again you seem to have all this pent up passive aggressive tension within you about SC. Do you study it?

I again ask why you seem so concerned about the future of SC seemingly going to lose out.

GM Chicoine is teaching his students. His student, Ho Chun, is actively pursuing dissemination of GM Chicoines material through his school and website.
Http://www.noweightsworkout.com You really cannot say that GM Chicoine is not passing on his skills. GM Chicoine has taught me his Iron Palm method. He also showed me some nasty ways to apply the hands when you have attained some skill in this dying art.

GM Jeng Shing Peng is teaching his students as well. There was a small blurb in IKF magazine a while back that GM Peng is out of retirement to teach another generation of people his SC skills.

Most if not all the SC teachers are teaching their students.

The art will survive as arts have survived over the milennia.

Are you feeling the need to change SC for some reason? Are you having issues with certain techniques? Falling methods?

As for namecalling, at least I use my real name when I post and do not hide behind usernames. You want to step up? Step up, then. If not keep posting inane drivel and whine on about how the future is bleak because you feel the leadership of the ISCA is not what you want.

You do this with presidents and politics too?



Dale Dugas

[M.C. Busman]

[...]GM Chang gave the ISCA to GM Chicoine, and not to any family member. That speaks volumes.

Yes, Chang Tung-sheng "gave" Chicoine the presidency of the ISCA...and Chicoine has "run" it...into the ground drive out virtually everybody, essentially nullifying the constitution set in place while Chang was alive. Simple fact, no use to get defensive.


Rant all you want. David Chang did not receive it and the people in Taiwan have not given it to him.

Eh, you've got the ranting pretty welll covered. Taiwan certainly had no need for the ISCA...that was an org which was supposed to bring SC to the world or at least the USA. Don't you get it? The ISCA was for NON-Taiwanese. The USSCA and Combat SC stepped in long ago to fill the void the ISCA left. Are you still struggling to understand what this discussion is about?


Again you seem to have all this pent up passive aggressive tension within you about SC.

You can see what you want to see, Dale. That's O.K. First you should look within. Transference will only hinder you and distract from the point.


I again ask why you seem so concerned about the future of SC seemingly going to lose out.

You're confusing the future of SC with the ISCA. The two are on very different paths. SC has a future.


[...]You really cannot say that GM Chicoine is not passing on his skills. GM Chicoine has taught me his Iron Palm method. He also showed me some nasty ways to apply the hands when you have attained some skill in this dying art.

Didn't say Chicoine isn't passing on his skills. Go back...re-read. Think and consider carefully before you type rashly.


GM Jeng Shing Peng is teaching his students as well. There was a small blurb in IKF magazine a while back that GM Peng is out of retirement to teach another generation of people his SC skills.

No kidding. He's feeling better, been able to do some coaching lately. :) http://www.shuaijiao.net/ a-gain.


Most if not all the SC teachers are teaching their students.[...]The art will survive as arts have survived over the milennia.[...]Are you feeling the need to change SC for some reason? Are you having issues with certain techniques? Falling methods?

Are you? :) A little brush up on reading comprehension wouldn't hurt you, either. Changing SC=not the point. SC is SC.


As for namecalling, at least I use my real name when I post and do not hide behind usernames. You want to step up?Step up, then. If not keep posting inane drivel and whine on about how the future is bleak because you feel the leadership of the ISCA is not what you want. You do this with presidents and politics too?

I've used my real name on the 'net since '94. As for your discomfort with politics in the martial arts, they're unavoidable, and no reason for you to chase your tail or froth.

An honest discussion about this has been brewing for long enough. Criticism for the way Gene Chicoine has handled the ISCA issue is overdue. A man (and students) who still makes noises about being the darling of the SC crowd in Taiwan, uses GM Chang's name to further himself, and maintains a website which makes questionable statements about other legitimate SC folks (~or is it inane whining from Chicoine because others didn't see things as he wanted? :rolleyes: ) who have proven themselves through competition and coaching, can expect criticism.

If Gene Chicoine can't run the ISCA after all his efforts to purge other original members, after all his promises to spread SC THAT HE MADE TO GM CHANG, he should pass the duties on to someone who can. Sure, w/ active SC associations going right now, it isn't necessary...but wouldn't it be nice for something GM Chang had such hope for to have an actual legacy, not just an outdated website leading...nowhere?? It is a simple practical matter, really. You should try to consider the facts and leave distracting emotions out of it. Walking in circles when angry will only make you dizzier.


:D Have a Super Day :D

M.C. Busman

[Dale Dugas]

MC Busman,

You came into this convo and started dropping bombs filled with politicobabble and obvious distaste for the way GM Chicoine is running the ISCA. You seem to think that deflecting my questions and wrapping them up with lots of quotes and seemingly snappy retorts can cover that up.

No big deal as I don't care a toss about you. Why should I? Your not a brother in my school nor a member of my family. Do not be one of these losers who posts all the time and obviously would rather live on the net than live life.

Did you find what you were seeking when your were asking questions on Fee Mon Ong in earlier posts as well as getting into politicobabble sessions with the other infants who infest the net. You too can look up my old posts too and see what I have been doing as well.

You can deflect all you want. You started throwing out the problems you are having with the ISCA. So what? Are you in any position to change them? Do you have the ability to do this? If not, then why give a crud. Better to train in your material and ignore the trouble that you perceive.

Do you train enough? I do. It eats most of my free time.

I am not angry. Life is too short to be angry.

Your very dissillusioned with the ISCA. Who cares.


In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[M.C. Busman]

You came into this convo and started dropping bombs filled with politicobabble and obvious distaste for the way GM Chicoine is running the ISCA. You seem to think that deflecting my questions and wrapping them up with lots of quotes and seemingly snappy retorts can cover that up.

Dale, you have sidestepped and tried to turn my posts into ad hominem attacks at every step. You've tried to turn an introspective discussion into a battle, and failed miserably. Not every person who disagrees with you is your enemy. Responding to a question does require careful consideration and deliberation, which is why I recommended you read things carefully through and consider what is written before jumping to the wrong conclusion.


No big deal as I don't care a toss about you. Why should I? Your not a brother in my school nor a member of my family. Do not be one of these losers who posts all the time and obviously would rather live on the net than live life.

Well, you evidently care enough to write and keep posting. You're not a member of my family either, and I'd recommend you take your own advice rather than ineffectively slinging it at people who don't need it.


Did you find what you were seeking when your were asking questions on Fee Mon Ong in earlier posts [....]

Yes. With the contacts I made at that time, I did some travelling and got two interviews and some decent photographs from family and line students--some righteous historical info I'm trying to put into the proper perspective right now before I share it. Have fun looking up all my old posts here and elsewhere. You'll be quite busy and learn plenty about history :D


You can deflect all you want. You started throwing out the problems you are having with the ISCA. So what? Are you in any position to change them? Do you have the ability to do this? If not, then why give a crud. Better to train in your material and ignore the trouble that you perceive.

I can't deflect what isn't on target, Dale :(. You haven't made a whole lot of sense with your rabbiting on about politicobable and such--you have an opinion, and you're trying to turn it into reality. What gave you the idea that I was trying to change or influence anything---especially SC?! People frequently observe situations and discuss them...This situation is nothing different, and I fail to see why it has you so distracted and defensive. I didn't post that stuff on the ISCA site, and I didn't create the situation.


Do you train enough? I do. It eats most of my free time.

I don't discuss that on a first date, Dale. :D I'd recommend you stop worrying about ME. I'm a believer in self-discipline and hard training myself, and practice what I preach.


I am not angry. Life is too short to be angry.

Got that right! :) :) :)


Your very dissillusioned with the ISCA. Who cares.

Yeah. It's too bad. Hopefully it will change in the future. People who don't care needn't involve themselves in the discussion, I suppose...


:) Happiness, :)

M.C. Busman

[M.C. Busman]

If an individual makes an extraordinary public claim, it is fair to ask for more information, or evidence. These questions are not meant as an attack. I do not intend that this query be read with a tone of sarcasm or doubt.

For a long time we've had relatively easy access to information and instructors on the East and West coasts. For some reason everything that goes on in Ohio and much of the rest of the Central states seems juuust far enough away to escape notice. It would be nice to see further documentation of the people and events from other-than W/E coasts so that part of our history is not lost.

That being covered, there are still these questions that were asked earlier:

With whom/what style of karate did Gene Chicoine study while in the service in Japan? Men who studied in Japan at the time were rare. This would make Chicoine one of the pioneers of Japanese karate, along with Walter Todd and (possibly) Robert Trias.

In what art was he ranked 7th dan out of Hong Kong...and by whom?

Who did Chicoine fight in challenge matches in Taiwan, in the USA, and as ISCA president? Tournaments, "friendly matches", students, subordinates, or people from rival organizations? Did he earn any titles, as Chang and Weng had? Chang's matches were public and documented--no hiding, no secrets. Just hard training and fierce fighting.

As for me and why I want to know...I've gone out of my way before to photograph important sites and interview people who have been involved in martial arts history. I don't disguise the fact that in addition to practicing and studying martial art, I am a history buff. If we don't broach these questions NOW, it may be too late LATER.



Take Care Y'all,

M.C. Busman :)

[Ho Chun]

I personally use the Judo breakfall when practicing, but I see the value and the reasoning behind the Shuai Chiao breakfall.

As I have said in earlier posts, M.C. Busman, is very educated and has much knowledge about the I.S.C.A. I wish I had some of the answers that continue to be left unanswered.

[Dale Dugas]

I bow down to you MC Busman.

Have heard many stories about Master Ong. I heard he was able to do some rather insane demos. Glad to hear you have been able to connect with direct lineage people.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Ho Chun]

Three SC associations in US just don't make sense. It will be nice that one day, all three US SC schools, "Ho Chun", "Ho Jong", and "Ho Sheng" could work together again.


Who has the Ho Jong and Ho Sheng schools?

Thanks

[Ho Chun]

I believe that Ho Jong is Dr Daniel Weng's school and Ho Sheng is John Wang's school but I could be wrong.


That's cool! Do you know what they mean? I know Matt Molica down in Columbus, Ohio, his school is called Ho I. Seems as though GM Chang named them all in a very similar pattern.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Here's what I get out of this thread:

Gene Chicoine may or may not be a gangster as the rumours go, but he probably owns a porno shoppe.

None of his people can explain the crazy things he says on his site (see previous posts), and just get p!ssy when they are brought up and say 'teacher' or 'master' as a proper noun when speaking about him. (reminds me of Chung Moo Quan, but I KNOW you guys are better than that.)

Instead of enjoying his opportunity in life to teach and practice, he's a p!ssy guy who is determined to tell you 'the way it is' - even if it's delusional, and takes away from anything of value he may have to offer.

Which is a shame. But as is typical of the case, most MA teachers draw way too much of thier personal sense of self from the ego-boo of being 'special', 'unique', or 'different.'

[Dale Dugas]

MST,

Nothing wrong with respecting a man who teaches you something you do not know. He is very blunt and does not pull punches. He is allowed that. He has the experience to judge what he sees is crap and what is not.

I call him Teacher. I also call him Master Chicoine as he has many more years in the arts than I do. Anyone who has more than 30 years in the arts I will address as master. Call it respect of his training. Too many 25 year old Grandmasters that have taken the title and made it worthless.

Gangster? You gotta be kidding me. Please........

Master Chicoine can say what he wants. As can anyone else. The question is can the others back it up?

CMQ? Now theres a happy trippy cult who have nothing to offer but to take your money and teach you absolute garbage. They still have some schools here in the Boston area.. They have changed their name to Om Yang Doe or School of Asian Martial Arts. No covering up their stench of greed.

You want to talk about a kungfu cult then lets talk about the Green Dragon compound, I mean company. That would be closer to the truth. At least for rumors anyway.

I think Master Chicoine refuses to be PC about certain people and organizations. Bully for him to take a stance and not be swayed by status quo.

[lotus storm]

You want to talk about a kungfu cult then lets talk about the Green Dragon compound, I mean company. That would be closer to the truth. At least for rumors anyway

A "cult"? Really? What are the reasons you would give for promoting such a "rumor" in this way?

[Dale Dugas]

Lotus Storm,

Just restating what I have heard on the grapevine. I have PMed you as well.

Later,

Dale

[MonkeySlap Too]

Let me clarify - I find the silly claims on the web site similar ("grandmaster of all Pa Kua... puh-lease) similar to the kind of crap OOM YUNG DOE slings.

But I would never, ever directly compare anyone even remotely legitimate to those f@ckers. So, my apologies if that was perceived, it was not intended.

[Dale Dugas]

None taken. Marketing is marketing no matter the genre.

Those people are very weasely and deserve whatever is brought down upon their heads.

[DeLamar.J]

Any one ever heard of these guys? I was wondering if there was any footage out there besides the old black and white footage of gm chang. Any thing of gene chicoine fighting? Or any of their current students? I know that they think they are the greatest fighting school and art ever to grace this earth. I was just wondering if there was any one who has seen for themselves their destructive powers?

http://www.shuaichiao.com/


I know where I stand on their alledged dominance but I was wondering what other thought.

They are great martial artists, the best. I know people who train there and have trained there.

[YouKnowWho]

Who has the Ho Jong and Ho Sheng schools?

Thanks

That's cool! Do you know what they mean? I know Matt Molica down in Columbus, Ohio, his school is called Ho I. Seems as though GM Chang named them all in a very similar pattern.

GM Chang gave all his students a horizontal school sign with his own hand writting and they all start with "Ho ???". Where "Ho" means unify, combine, together.

Ho Chun - everybody live peacefully together (gene chicoine).
Ho I - everybody unify as one (Dr. Deniel Weng).
Ho Sheng - everybody raise (grow, advance) up together (John Wang).


I believe "Ho Jong" is from my bad memory and "Ho I" should be the right name. Matt Molica continues Dr. Weng's school after Dr. Weng moved to California.

[Sow Choy]

you know...

Ho Chun in Cantonese is like calling someone a real *******... very disrespectfull...

I thought this post was some people flaming... hahaha...

[mooyingmantis]

I first met Mr. Chicoine when his school was called Hop Sing. That was about thirty years ago.
In the past (80's) I had met a few of Mr. Chicoine's past Kwan Ying Do students and they were poor fighters. I know because two of my students and I fought them. No pads, few rules.
Maybe his Shuai Jiao people are better.

[Akronviper]

Yea its a little different now a days, seems the material from G.M Chang is hell of alot better than Feeman Ongs material. But hey theres good students and bad students and some that can just kick butt no matter what.

[iron tiger]

Interesting thread.


David Chang was the one man who didn't need to become a disciple or an adopted son to carry on the teachings of Chang Tung-sheng

Which teachings? What did GM Chang teach David as opposed to what he chose to teach Chicoine? And how do you know which is what?

Based on....?


Criticizing everyone else in the Shuai Chiao universe lets Chicoine off the hook in terms of establishing and running a REAL functional international organization as he promised Grandmaster Chang

You know precisely what Chicoine promised GM Chang how?

About the Stone Warrior, no, John Allen didn't "make it up." Got a nice chuckle out that, though.

Anybody else posting here ever been present when Allen & Chicoine were together? Or know, really, much about the long, long relationship between the two and how it was forged?

Or see Chang Tung-Shen in action?

Anyway, from what I know & remember of this that might be pertinent (and in summary form, in the interest of brevity): Chicoine's school focuses on some things, Allen's on others.

The Ho Chun people, for example, go out of their way to teach guys who are already somewhat big & strong even before they ever start training. Green Dragon specializes, if I must use such a word in relation to them, in training women and men who are of generally smaller-than-average size.

Allen & Chicoine, iirr, were both exposed to Iron Vest, Stone Warrior, and Iron Palm all at about the same time (relatively speaking). Chicoine chose to specialize on the Vest, Allen the Stone Warrior, whereas both did Palm (all levels of it).

As Mr. Dugas has said (if I may paraphrase him in the interest of time): Very, very few people who watch Master Chicoine perform actually have even the slightest idea what they are actually seeing go on in terms of what's really happening, particularly from the standpoint of internal power generation and control. This includes the vast majority of martial artists, as well as martial arts instructors themselves---regardless of what they wish to believe---irrespective of how long most of them have been "training" in whatever style or multiple of styles & power sets they may have had exposure to.

Because, despite the near-ludicrous level of presumption & ignorance of Mr. Busman as revealed in his several postings that attempt to touch on the matter: neither Gene Chicoine or John Allen are ever going to dumb things down or dilute their material down to the level way too many people in the martial arts community today, for some reason---Americanization? Modern-day lapses in values & priorities?---seem to feel entitled to.

You gotta earn these sorts of privileges, and that includes the types of answers & knowledge some people seem to feel should be able to be bought. You have to prove your loyalty and dedication and commitment and ability to be trusted through hard, hard work and daily sacrifice over time!

That's one of the great things about the true tradition of the Chinese martial arts and the incredible, at times astounding, benefits that proper training on authentic material will provide if you are up to meeting the standard: the phonies are quickly weeded out by the training demands made on them, if nothing else, and the Busmans rarely even make it through the door.

And nobody who's worth a darn will ever really care. And the tradition, as exemplified by people of proven integrity & worth like Grandmaster Chang and the person he entrusted the best of his knowledge to (ie Chicoine) will go on.

The 'tao' still means the 'way,' Mr. Busman. Not your way. A significant distinction you show ZERO evidence of having yet grasped.

If not, on the basis of your posts, less than zero.

[iron tiger]

Fwiw:


G.M. Chicoine feels he may have been a little too hard with his criticism of his martial arts cousin David Chang, grandson of his teacher. This was mostly caused by David being taken in by Daniel Weng and his student Mark Miller, who are only using David because of his name and relationship to his grandfather.

Etc.

From the ISCA website, clicking on 'Read GM Chicoine's Words.'

http://www.shuaichiao.com/

http://www.shuaichiao.com/ISCA.pdf