Is Master Pel Typical ?

[lamakwoklee]

I approach this subject with caution as I do not wish to be "memorialized" in an essay, or on a website. I'm just curious. Is Master Pel typical of the current breed of westerner pursuing the CMA? What a hard lesson for those who nourished, and taught him their art, and allowed him into their lineage. They would have to be noble men to allow themselves to again be open with their knowledge, once they've nursed a viper at their breasts. Let us learn from this.

One ungrateful man injures all who need assistance.

- Publilius Syrus

[Three Harmonies]

Good post. He is one of a kind IMO, but I have never met him personally. His attitude is certainly not typical in my experience! My teachers would have nothing to do with someone with his attitude! But my teachers are a lot different than some others so who can say?!

Cheers
Jake :D

[German Bai Lung]

lamakwoklee:

I understand what you mean. I often think: what makes Sifu Lee still accept german students?
He get betrayed not only this time but several times later ...

So it´s my wish to erase some of the bad feelings Sifu Lee must have, when thinking about german students!

[BeiTangLang]

Sorry guys, even though the instructor is mantis , the post is not about mantis & will be moved to the main forum.

[Fu-Pow]

Sorry guys, even though the instructor is mantis , the post is not about mantis & will be moved to the main forum.

Which is dumb because none of us know who Master Pel is? :confused:

[FuXnDajenariht]

lmao :D












blah-dy blah-dy blah blah blah.... whos stupid idea was it to make 10 character lmit?

[red5angel]

Sorry guys, even though the instructor is mantis , the post is not about mantis & will be moved to the main forum.

WTF?! The guy is a mantis instructor but if you're not talking directly about the art it can't be in the forum?! :eek:

[SevenStar]

BTL runs a strict forum. Anything that goes off topic will be locked, and topics with a potential to be severely unpertinent to the forum will be moved.

[shirkers1]

For fear of being gassed. I will say that "allegedly, this guy I know who studies mantis and at one time liked to post on the northern mantis forum has had most of his threads shut down because of outsiders coming in and taking over the threads". So instead of blocking those users from posting the threads full of useful information, the thread just gets shut down completely. :rolleyes: Even though it states no where on the board what is specifically suppose to be talked about, you would guess that if it has to do with mantis in some way it would be okay. But it's not, and you have to word everything correctly to state that you are talking about mantis... "allegedly" speaking of course and this is this guy I know who is saying this.................. not me.............. seriously.............it's not me............... bai I swear............for real. :confused:

[SevenStar]

For fear of being gassed. I will say that "allegedly, this guy I know who studies mantis and at one time liked to post on the northern mantis forum has had most of his threads shut down because of outsiders coming in and taking over the threads". So instead of blocking those users from posting the threads full of useful information, the thread just gets shut down completely. :rolleyes: Even though it states no where on the board what is specifically suppose to be talked about, you would guess that if it has to do with mantis in some way it would be okay. But it's not, and you have to word everything correctly to state that you are talking about mantis... "allegedly" speaking of course and this is this guy I know who is saying this.................. not me.............. seriously.............it's not me............... bai I swear............for real. :confused:


LOL, why do I feel like I'm partly to blame?

[shirkers1]

7* that is funny.. :D Well here's my view on that. You and I have always had constructive discussions about what we do. I hold no ill will towards you or your views. I don't think either of us are wrong in thinking the way we do, we just differ a little in our opinions. So when those conversations invite others in that really aren't giving any input that is useful to the conversation than block them not the thread.... Well that's my 2 cents and we all know what that is worth. Especially since the american dollar is about as useful as a the peso now a days. ;)

[GeneChing]

Gigi, our publisher, was lurking in this forum and just demanded to know who Master Pel was. So she made me read this whole thread to tell her the answer. Like I know. Who the hell is Master Pel? Fu-Pow, you hit the nail on the head, man. Maybe we should kick this down to the Traditional Chinese Medicine forum next. That would really confuse them down there. :p

[SaekSan]

Hey Gene,

Just google "Kai Uwe Pel".

He has a website:

http://tanglang.lifehome-china.com/kaiuwepel.html

He teaches in Shanghai

[BeiTangLang]

I was just trying to share the love.... :D

[Brad]

I think it was moved because it was 100% attacking the character of the guy, possibly a bit racist (though not necesarilly intentional), and gave no details on why he's a bad guy. + there's not anything concerning his martial arts.

I don't understand why it was dumped over here rather than just locked like a lot of the other threads though :confused:

[Chief Fox]

I approach this subject with caution as I do not wish to be "memorialized" in an essay, or on a website. I'm just curious. Is Master Pel typical of the current breed of westerner pursuing the CMA? What a hard lesson for those who nourished, and taught him their art, and allowed him into their lineage. They would have to be noble men to allow themselves to again be open with their knowledge, once they've nursed a viper at their breasts. Let us learn from this.

One ungrateful man injures all who need assistance.

- Publilius Syrus

Don't know who Master Pel is or what he did but you imply that he is ungrateful. And the topic of your post is (is this typical amoung the "current breed" of westerners?). As a westerner I feel qualified to answer. Yes, all westerners are ungrateful. :rolleyes:

[lamakwoklee]

Let me attempt to clarify my thought on this subject. To defame Master Pel was not my intent. Master Pel's own writings stand as a testament to his character. I merely wanted to highlight him as an example of what can hold westerners back in the study of the CMA.

This is such a complex subject it may well belong in the main forum. I love Praying Mantis, but my primary love are the Tibetan Chinese Martial Arts (TCMA). In arts that have a relatively open tradition such as HK Qi Xing Tang Lang, the effect of one Master Pel may be overcome. But what about those of us who toil away for years in other traditions that are less open?

[Jhapa]

http://www.chinwoomen.com/kaiuwepel.html

[Starchaser107]

http://tanglang.lifehome-china.com/kaiuwepel.html

[Starchaser107]

Can somebody preferably Lamakwoklee expound on this?
What are these contravertial writings you speak of?
Can you give us more insight into this character?

[shirkers1]

A basic backdrop on what was going on over in the mantis board. Pel is the head instructor for 7* mantis at the chinwoo athletics club in shanghai. He's the "official" inheritor of the complete system over there. That is all fine and dandy. The problem is, if you go to the news section of his site he has articles ripping apart everyone but himself. Some people he tares apart are doing many positive things for the mantis community by bringing everyone together to share information.

My problem with this is that he should be promoting his art in a positive way as well, show everyone what is the right way and the proper way to train your boxing. Don't give us examples of what is wrong, give us examples of what is right. We all know there is more wrong out there than right. I've yet to see any footage of him or any of his students doing anything. I was invited to train with them, which is an honor believe me. But I can't just pick up and move to the other side of the world just because he "says" he's good. I'm american, I have to see someone for myself to see if I think they have proper skills.

[Starchaser107]

Ok I understand a bit more clearly now, thank you Shirkers.
From looking at master pel's photos he looks physically capable, but I would tend to agre with you that it would be better to see him in action. I also agree that there might be a better way to do what he's dong by discrediting others. Perhaps by his own actions and accomplishments as well as his students.
Anyways politics is unavoidable. :rolleyes:

[joedoe]

A basic backdrop on what was going on over in the mantis board. Pel is the head instructor for 7* mantis at the chinwoo athletics club in shanghai. He's the "official" inheritor of the complete system over there. That is all fine and dandy. The problem is, if you go to the news section of his site he has articles ripping apart everyone but himself. Some people he tares apart are doing many positive things for the mantis community by bringing everyone together to share information.

My problem with this is that he should be promoting his art in a positive way as well, show everyone what is the right way and the proper way to train your boxing. Don't give us examples of what is wrong, give us examples of what is right. We all know there is more wrong out there than right. I've yet to see any footage of him or any of his students doing anything. I was invited to train with them, which is an honor believe me. But I can't just pick up and move to the other side of the world just because he "says" he's good. I'm american, I have to see someone for myself to see if I think they have proper skills.

Just out of curiosity, what does being American have to do with having to see someone's skills for yourself? :D

You are right though. Tell people how to do it right rather than just saying that everyone else does it wrong.

[shirkers1]

Yeah the political side of it between him and Lee Kam Wing is between them and I've heard both sides of the story. I really don't care, all I care about is what that person has to offer. I know he has plenty to offer information wise. But it would be nice to see first hand. I know the invite went out for them to join in on the first ever Mantis Boxing Conference being held in cleveland ohio. This is a great opportunity for all mantis styles and schools to get together and openly share info on how they train etc. But I think they refused to come. Maybe when the event is held over seas they will come and show their stuff. Hopefully. :)

[shirkers1]

Joedoe, well that was a typical "shirkers smart assss remark" :D There are a lot of so called "masters" out there in the mantis world who by word of mouth built up a mystic about themselves. Well when I finally saw what they had to offer I was amazed at how awful it was. So like most americans we like to see the proof in the pudding so to speak, and not just take someones word for it.

I don't claim to be anything special, I've been at this game for a while and what I did was concentrate on application rather than quantity. I was interested in fighting and using what worked for me. So that's what I did and still do, I don't collect forms gathering all the info I can on my particular style.. I don't put myself out there trying to make a name as someone who is legit. I don't care about that garbage. I work out to work out and enjoy the style I train in. A fighter knows just by watching someone else move if they can handle themselves. Those are the people I'm watching out for, not the guy who has a complete system and can do a bunch of forms in tourneys.

[joedoe]

I was only kidding Shirkers :). I don't think it is fair to say that all Americans want to see the proof in the pudding - look at the .com boom and the concept of vapourware ;)

Anyway, I have a friend who may have spent a few days observing Sifu Pel in Shanghai. I am trying to confirm with her whether it was him or not, but I seem to remember her saying that he was German and teaching Northern PM in Shanghai.

[Redfish]

lamakwoklee:

I understand what you mean. I often think: what makes Sifu Lee still accept german students?
He get betrayed not only this time but several times later ...


That's a familiar story ...

what makes Sifu Lee still accept german students?

Money?

It's funny that this thread was moved here. I posted a thread asking about Master Pel's website over in the mantis forum. The thread was closed for being 'off topic'. But I saw plenty of old threads over there that were actually off topic or nutty that went on for pages.

The moderator isn't strict, he has Pel-o-phobia :D

[Wang Rui Xuan]

Shifu Pel teaches traditional Seven Star Praying Mantis in Shanghai.

Myself including a diverse international group of students and working professionals study under Shifu Pel.

As an Individual - Shifu Pel is a very genuine and sincere person with the utmost integrity.

As a Teacher - Shifu Pel is a strict traditionalist with world class knowledge, skill, and commitment. He is experienced, hands on, and leads by example. He has produced some excellent and well respected students.

As an Athlete - Shifu Pel is all about applied performance. He is a naturally gifted athlete who has developed his Mantis skills to a very high level through years of diligent training with top Masters.

Intellectually Shifu Pel is not afraid to be controversial, challenge ideas, and speak out about them. His pieces are topical, well presented, informative, and get people thinking.

My take on Shifu Pel? Definitely Not Typical.

Best Regards,
Wang Rui Xuan
Shanghai

[David Jamieson]

These forums sure have a lot of people speaking 'for' other people, making claims 'for' other people etc etc. And many with out the simple disclaimer "In My Opinion'


I wonder if this is only a condition of enthusiastic martial artists because you don't see this behaviour in many other fields of study.

anyway, thanks for the link at least we have a little idea of who this Pel fella is now. :p

[shirkers1]

To use a quote by you I believe, other than the negative stories about other mantis practitioners, what is of "mantis value" on that site? I see nothing of skill other than a couple of articles reciting what Lou gwang yu passed on...

If it wasn't you that pm'd me saying my stuff showed nothing of "mantis value" then I take it back. It was one of you guys. I found it odd that some of you emailed me wanting to know who my teacher was, saying that he was passing on some good stuff and inviting me to train. But as soon as I say "sorry I'd like to see what you guys have to offer first before I trek across the world to train with someone I've never seen move" you say my stuff is of "no mantis value"? We're not in high school any more.

[Wang Rui Xuan]

Shirkers - Sent you a PM.

Wang Rui Xuan

[shirkers1]

Wang, right back at ya.

mark

[Mi Hou Tao]

disclaimer: "In my opinion"
With so much discussion about Master Pel, its difficult as a student to stand back and watch others say bad things about your master, and i guess this is true for any student of martial arts or perhaps any discipline for that matter.
As a student of Master Pel for almost 1 year, i feel i have an opinion.
"In my opinion" from my training with Master Pel, i have found him to be simply outstanding, as a person and a kung fu teacher, helping me with things in life and in kung fu. He has no care for money or fame from kung fu, but purely enjoys the art, and cares for its future, and doesnt have the time to travel to numerous locations, just to inform people who are curious of his skills. He knows his skills and feels no need to show them off to people he has never met. He has high standards, which, as his student, I am truly grateful for, because if he didnt, I know i wouldnt be half the practitioner I am(although ive only started on the path).
Is Master Pel Typical? , "In my opinion", definately not. He has completed training under 2 masters, and every time I see him perform anything, not only am i amazed, but I also realize that unless i give 110%effort in training everyday for a long time, I will never come close.
So, once again "In my opinion" , make your own decision. Read about Master Pel, and what he has to say, If possible, come to meet him and train, and make your own decision.

[David Jamieson]

disclaimer: "In my opinion"
With so much discussion about Master Pel, its difficult as a student to stand back and watch others say bad things about your master, and i guess this is true for any student of martial arts or perhaps any discipline for that matter.
As a student of Master Pel for almost 1 year, i feel i have an opinion.
"In my opinion" from my training with Master Pel, i have found him to be simply outstanding, as a person and a kung fu teacher, helping me with things in life and in kung fu. He has no care for money or fame from kung fu, but purely enjoys the art, and cares for its future, and doesnt have the time to travel to numerous locations, just to inform people who are curious of his skills. He knows his skills and feels no need to show them off to people he has never met. He has high standards, which, as his student, I am truly grateful for, because if he didnt, I know i wouldnt be half the practitioner I am(although ive only started on the path).
Is Master Pel Typical? , "In my opinion", definately not. He has completed training under 2 masters, and every time I see him perform anything, not only am i amazed, but I also realize that unless i give 110%effort in training everyday for a long time, I will never come close.
So, once again "In my opinion" , make your own decision. Read about Master Pel, and what he has to say, If possible, come to meet him and train, and make your own decision.

ya see, now you have a 'legitimate' point of view because of how you wrapped it up!

sweeeet and good enough for me. :p

[cerebus]

Well, I've read some of the posts that Pel himself wrote on the Mantis board way back when, and I really can't say I like him too much. One of his posts initially came across looking as if he were complementing Lee Kam Wing (his former instructor with whom he had a"falling out" and who he uses every opportunity to bad-mouth), but as I read further it became clear that it was actually a back-handed insult so that it made out that master Lee was a liar and fraud while Pel was was all innocent and not meaning any such thing (though it was blatently obvious that he knew exactly what he was doing). That was just slimy. If you're going to insult someone, come right out and do it. Don't be a sneaking, mincer about it. That really lowered my opinion of Pel as a person, regardless of any ability he may have as an instructor.

[Redfish]

I went back to that site after reading Cerebus' post.

I read the 'statements' Link to statements (http://tanglang.lifehome-china.com/statement.html)

They all seem to have well thought out points, deal with issues and provide evidence, often photos proving the links and claims. The statements don't contain any name calling or bad language either.

I don't think you can offer this kind of thing as a valid point against him "Well It's not very positive" or "I don't like the way he did it" ..that's meaningless.

What part of the statements do you disagree with and why?

BUT but but ..what's the actually point of the thread here - the first post says that Master Pel betrayed his teachers and that it may be typical behaviour of 'westerners'?

Seems to me that Lamakwoklee can post outrageous racist sterotypes and accusations on here about a person he hardly knows and only one person even mentioned it let alone take him up on the point. But the likes of cerebus are more concerned with whether Master Pel is "nice" or not!

On the other hand, the statements on the site are well documented and reasonable.

What are people drinking over on the mantis board, I wonder?

[cerebus]

LOL! Well buddy "Nice" has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of martial arts instructors out there who aren't "nice", but I can respect them because they're honest and straightforward. If you have no problem with respecting someone who is back-biting, sneaking and two-faced in what they say about others, then that's your problem. I don't respect people like that myself. Pel is supposed to be such a great guy but all the evidence I've seen points to just the opposite. Maybe you like those traits about him. If so, then good for you. I'm sure the two of you will be very happy together. :rolleyes:

[shirkers1]

The original subject brought up by lama was what actually goes on in the real world..... He's not the rasist and his coments weren't racist. Bottom line is the CMA community in general are very biased on who they teach. You have a few gems out there that want their art to live on so they'll teach who ever is capable of learning, white, black, yellow, or brown. Lama's statement was that finally a foreigner is brought into the fold of the CMA and what transpired could be taken very negatively by some people and not want to train foreigners because of that.

Then the issue of this thread moved from the mantis forum sparked who Pel was. There were many negative posts and a few positive posts by pel. Do a search and read his posts for yourself. I agree with cerebus that even though good points are made in his articles and posts. There still is an underlying negative feel to his comments.

I prefer coke over pepsi if you really want to know what I'm drinking. :cool:

[Redfish]

Shirkers, Just becuase you say "It's not Racist" doesn't mean that all the facts will dissapear. Racism is not only limited to name calling.

His post implies that it's foriegners who typically betray their Chinese masters. I'd say that Chinese people leave their Chinese teachers or fall out with them and that 'westerners' (whatever that particluar stereotype actually means) also leave 'western' teachers'. It's not dependant on your ethnicity.

You said: "Lama's statement was that finally a foreigner is brought into the fold of the CMA and what transpired could be taken very negatively by some people and not want to train foreigners because of that. "

That statement is loaded with racist assumptions. The Chinese Martial Arts are the preserve of ethnically Chinese people. There are millions of people with Chinese nationality who know nothing about Kungfu. It only depends on who trains it.

If a 'westerner' fell out with his teacher who is Chinese - to then draw the conclusion that you should be careful with other 'westerners' is illogical and racist.

Also, since CMA were developed in China then it goes that a large majority of teachers will be ethnically Chinese. For them to think that it somehow 'belongs' to people who are 'chinese' is also racist. It's like when some one from America goes on about Japan playing baseball and copying them.

So here's the answer to the question in the post - is it typical?

It's only typical in the sense that a lot of students across the board leave their teachers with bad feelings - but it's not typical that a 'westerner' will 'betray' a Chinese master.

"Coke over pepsi": I felt the force of your Fisher Price "My First Sarcasm" there.

PS Cerebus: You will say those things about master Pel after reading a post you don't like (back-biting, sneaking and two-faced). Seems like you've met him. Also, it's still irrelevant ... just go back to the last post and insert you're latest insults over 'nice'.

[cerebus]

LOL! Uuuuuh, yeah. Make sense much? :p :p If an instructor's character is irrelevant to you, fine. Like I said, I'm sure you're very happy together. Enjoy. ;)

[Hungfutkune]

I have been away from this forum for a while since I moved back to Canada, but it still amazes me how people can make character opinions on people they haven't met. I too have read the past statements and have visited Mr. Pel's site, but I have also met the man personally. I see nothing wrong in a healthy debate of technique and history. Those statements are all well formed and have evidence to back most of the statements. I must also add after meeting Mr. Pel during my stay in Shanghai i found him to be nothing less then a gentleman and a very proficient Mantis Master, who is not motivated by money or ego, but the passing on of TRADITIONAL Kung Fu.

In regards to Chinese taking on western students who in the future might betray their sifus. I know that this statement was not meant to come across as racist but it shouldn't matter where the student is from. I have seen many Chinese people who have betrayed Chinese Masters, does that mean that the chinese masters might consider not teaching to Chinese students anymore.

Also, there is lots of talk about students who have betrayed their master. Has anyone ever stopped to think about Masters who have betrayed their students.

Keep an open mind, love life and train hard!!!
nuff said!!!

[shirkers1]

Redfish... I was going to let it go but what the hell does.."I felt the force of your fisher price.... my first sarcasm" mean?

[Redfish]

Shirkers ..sorry, let me explain ...

Fisher Price is a company who makes kid's toys. They are aimed at very young children and are often called "My First ..... " ..for example "My First cookery set" ..or "My First car" ...

I assumed that the company and the joke was known is the USA cos I heard it used on a Wutang Clan CD "Look at your Fisher Price "My First Timberlands"

The implication being that your witty remarks or comebacks or whatever you call them are , in fact, annoying and juvenile.

[shirkers1]

OH okay yeah thanks for the clear up. :rolleyes: See in order for a joke to be funny everyone has to get it. So when you throw out some weak shiat like that it's hard for any one to think it's funny or see it as a joke. I asked because that sounded like something a pedophile would say… and it concerned me that I was having a conversation with a sick person. :D But since I’m juvenile maybe that’s why I didn’t get it…. Or maybe it’s because I don’t have 14 kids and listen to Wu Tang Clan. :rolleyes: I guess we’ll never know. Wow who is the labeling people now? Not all Americans have 12 illegitimate kids and listen to rap. ;)

In response to your smart asssss comment “what are people drinking over on the mantis board.. I wonder”? My coke comment wasn’t meant to be sarcastic. I don’t drink alcohol and I prefer coke so I was just giving you the facts since you asked. :p

[Jhapa]

BTL runs a strict forum. Anything that goes off topic will be locked, and topics with a potential to be severely unpertinent to the forum will be moved.


maybe we should have an off topic forum

[lamakwoklee]

A few of you almost completely misread my initial post. I could have replaced the name of "Master" Kai Uwe Pel with that of "Master" Paulie Zink, and the main point would've been the same.

Fortunately, we have "Master" Pel's own words... Holy as I'm, writing these words I see that "Master" Pel's site has been somewhat modified. I stand corrected. Good thing for him that he wasn't dealing with some Sino- Tibetan, or other mantis style masters that I know of. He'd have never got the opportunity to repent.

[Redfish]

This is great stuff. Now it's your turn to explain some things I don't get, if you would. I put your quotes in bold. By the way, there a serious note at the end about calling someone a pedophile in public and the legal implications, read it first.


"See in order for a joke to be funny everyone has to get it. So when you throw out some weak shiat like that it's hard for any one to think it's funny or see it as a joke."

I'm not sure who you mean by everyone? Do you mean that becuase you didn't understand, then it goes that no one did either? Do you mean that if you don't know something then no else must know it either? Please clarify. Did you receive E-mails from 'everyone' also confirming that they didn't get it?

" I asked because that sounded like something a pedophile would say… and it concerned me that I was having a conversation with a sick person"

Could you please explain what a pedophile usually sounds like? And how you would know?

"Or maybe it’s because I don’t have 14 kids and listen to Wu Tang Clan. :rolleyes: I guess we’ll never know. Wow who is the labeling people now? Not all Americans have 12 illegitimate kids and listen to rap. ;)
"

This is your best one. I said that I heard the joke used myself on a Wutang CD and therefor the company Fisher Price must be known in the USA - they are American and they said the name of the company. I never mentioned anything about people who listen to rap having 14 kids. In fact, the first place it's mentioned is in the first sentence of your quote above.

So please clarify the above quote ..do you really mean to say that particular stereotype yourself, then ask me why I said it in the same breath? Do you have a split personality?

Of course, I could just give the easy answer to the question "Wow who is the labeling people now? " ... You are. Again.


Afternote: Ok, youre trying to be cool or whatever, but actually calling someone a pedophile is very serious and people get lynched or lose their careers/life over much more casual accusations referring to that particular topic. Think about it like an adult please. If you're going to keep on at it, just insult my mother or something, thanks. I'll PM you about the legal implications of you calling me that in the public forum soon.

[shalabaji]

I thought the fisher price thing was very funny :D I guess some people don't get the joke like others do, as is with all jokes.

Btw, if I’m not mistaken red fish has a good case for prosecution after the comments made in a previous post - I wonder if we can get a forum covering the events of the case as they proceed.

Getting back on topic, before a discussion about what is "typical" or "atypical" behaviour / practice of a master is started, surely these terms should be clearly defined so that no-one gets caught up talking in circles (as it seems many people here do very often). So, to continue the topic (WHICH SHOULD BE IN THE MANTIS FORUMN - slap on the hand for BTL), can anyone offer a concise definition of these terms, in an objective non-juvenile manner (I guess that excludes Shirkers then).

Thanks

[cerebus]

Well... I really don't care one way or the other but someone typing "that sounded like something a pedophile would say" is NOT a good case (or even a bad case. In fact it's no case at all) for prosecution. A tasteless and insulting comment, yes, but nowhere near actually accusing someone of being pedophile. Just sayin'...

[lamakwoklee]

Let's pull in the dialogue a notch please. If I didn't know better I'd think that some of the overheated accusations and insults were an intentional effort to get this post locked. Let's continiue to examine the place of non-Chinese in the Chinese martial arts.

[shalabaji]

so,


previously said "Getting back on topic, before a discussion about what is "typical" or "atypical" behaviour / practice of a master is started, surely these terms should be clearly defined so that no-one gets caught up talking in circles (as it seems many people here do very often). So, to continue the topic (WHICH SHOULD BE IN THE MANTIS FORUMN - slap on the hand for BTL), can anyone offer a concise definition of these terms, in an objective non-juvenile manner (I guess that excludes Shirkers then)."

can anyone comment on this? I'm still waiting (and starting to wonder if anyone here, apart frm redfish who seems to actually tackle what others have said and not skirt around the issue, has anything to say about definitions first, then debate second)...

[shirkers1]

Answeres to the million $ questions!!!! All gather round now cause it's a doozy... :rolleyes:

No I didn't receive any emails from any one on what you said. I don't think any really cares. It wasn't funny.

As for the pedophile comment. I was molested as a child so I think I have every right to talk about that issue since I have first hand knowledge of it... The comment made was "sounds like something a pedophile would say". Do I think you are one? No.. did I actually call you one? No. So get off of your high horse cheif. You throw a dig at me I'm throwing one back. You go ahead and PM me if you like, or we can talk about this issue in person if you like as well. Balls in your court.

The wu tang question: Yeah I thought that was a winner too. :D See I guess I'm still too witty for ya. Your assumption was that I knew your joke because wu tang said it. I don't listen to wu tang, I don't have kids. So both of those jokes I didn't get until you told me what you meant...... Even then I understood it, just thought it wasn't funny. Just like you don't think I'm funny..... It's as simple as that rumsfeld. I was being sarcastic hense the rolling eyes, I'm not a split personality.

On a final note, I'm not trying to be cool. I'm reacting to YOUR comments. I'm sitting here laughing while you seem to be buggered. So this coke's for you cheers...

[shirkers1]

In closing, since I've become what I hate on these boards. That being someone who takes over a thread because someone has started to banter with me. I won't respond to you on this post. You have something else to say then pm me or email me chief.


So I wonder if the rumor is true. I have pm's from others saying that you are actually mr pel or one of his students? Could this be true? :eek:

[BeiTangLang]

So, to continue the topic (WHICH SHOULD BE IN THE MANTIS FORUMN - slap on the hand for BTL),

By his own admission:


A few of you almost completely misread my initial post. I could have replaced the name of "Master" Kai Uwe Pel with that of "Master" Paulie Zink, and the main point would've been the same. ),

I fully stand by my call.
(GO slap yourself! (in my best James Brown voice ) :) )

~BTL

[shalabaji]

BTL -

was the topic moved before or after lamakwoklee made that comment? Enlighten me, then justify moving it if it was before (just for information's sake, I'd be interested if no one else is).

Shirkers - blah blah blah

anyone else that's paying attention to this topic, see previous posts and please try and answer the question at hand (that include you BTL)

- definitions, definitions, definitions - I still have no idea about what a TYPICAL master vs. an A-TYPICAL master is. I know I'd hate it if I was categoriesed as TYPICAL for a in public for a notion which has not been clearly stated

PS:

[BeiTangLang]

BTL -

was the topic moved before or after lamakwoklee made that comment? Enlighten me, then justify moving it if it was before (just for information's sake, I'd be interested if no one else is).

Shirkers - blah blah blah

anyone else that's paying attention to this topic, see previous posts and please try and answer the question at hand (that include you BTL)

- definitions, definitions, definitions - I still have no idea about what a TYPICAL master vs. an A-TYPICAL master is. I know I'd hate it if I was categoriesed as TYPICAL for a in public for a notion which has not been clearly stated

PS:

How dense are you? I actually read the first post for its content ala "A few of you almost completely misread my initial post"......Get it yet?

Here's a hint; I read the post & saw that it was a general post about "Westerners" in general with Pel just listed as an example of how people shouild not treat others in the kung fu community. I saw that it could have been an "insert name here" kind of post. Pel was just one that he thought of to use as a, what I'm guessing he thinks, is a poor example of how students should treat their sifu over & over again.

I also knew that this would end up being a troll thread (which it has) of bouncing alternate user id's of people who deleted their posts & quit the (mantis) forum at an earlier date. History can only be erased if it does not repeat itself. That will never happen with people without the capability to learn from experience.
(Yeah, to most this paragraph will make no sense, but then, neither do the people it was aimed at)

Alas, I still stick with why I moved this thread here & the "Go slap yourself" (In my best James Brown voice).

I won't be back here, so if you feel like taking this further, pm me.
~BTL

[Redfish]

My questions have been answered, here are my questions and then the answers from Shirkers latest post.



.
"See in order for a joke to be funny everyone has to get it. So when you throw out some weak shiat like that it's hard for any one to think it's funny or see it as a joke."

I'm not sure who you mean by everyone? Do you mean that becuase you didn't understand, then it goes that no one did either? Do you mean that if you don't know something then no else must know it either? Please clarify. Did you receive E-mails from 'everyone' also confirming that they didn't get it?

And the answer from Shirkers: "No I didn't receive any emails from any one on what you said. It wasn't funny."




" I asked because that sounded like something a pedophile would say… and it concerned me that I was having a conversation with a sick person"

Could you please explain what a pedophile usually sounds like? And how you would know?

And the answer from Shirkers: "As for the pedophile comment. I was molested as a child so I think I have every right to talk about that issue since I have first hand knowledge of it... The comment made was "sounds like something a pedophile would say". Do I think you are one? No.. did I actually call you one? No. So get off of your high horse cheif. "





"Or maybe it’s because I don’t have 14 kids and listen to Wu Tang Clan. :rolleyes: I guess we’ll never know. Wow who is the labeling people now? Not all Americans have 12 illegitimate kids and listen to rap. ;)
"

This is your best one. I said that I heard the joke used myself on a Wutang CD and therefor the company Fisher Price must be known in the USA - they are American and they said the name of the company. I never mentioned anything about people who listen to rap having 14 kids. In fact, the first place it's mentioned is in the first sentence of your quote above.

So please clarify the above quote ..do you really mean to say that particular stereotype yourself, then ask me why I said it in the same breath? Do you have a split personality?

And the answer from Shirkers: "The wu tang question: Yeah I thought that was a winner too. See I guess I'm still too witty for ya. "


So, I think we've run out of steam here. Well I have. It's all in the above post.

"See I guess I'm still too witty for ya. "

[shirkers1]

thanks for rehashing the same garbage, could have pm'd me like I did you instead of repeating the same thing over and over. The names change but the actions stay the same, welcome back.

[Three Harmonies]

So when is Rdfish going ot share who he actually is????
Money down that he is a student of Pels!
Cerebrus,
You have made the most sense, and I agree with all you have said. Integrity is a commodity that is dwindling in todays world.
Jake :D

[Mika]

Someone asked what about masters that mistreat their students unfairly?

Of course it's happened to me from several teachers.
You just take your wounds and walk quietly away when it is time and never say anything in public.
To turn on your teacher is to turn on yourself.
Your teacher is always family.
You disgrace your teacher you disgrace yourself.
Even a dog does not soil its own house.
Loyalty is more than just chinese culture, there are practical reasons for it in practice and in long term history.



I am talking about the task at hand, in other words, people in general. I am NOT referring to any persons mentioned in this or any other threads. I want to be absolutely clear about this.

And that is what this thread was intended for, if I am not mistaken.

I see your point, Wolfen, and for the most part, I agree. However, if the teacher has betrayed you and everyone else, wouldn't you be doing a disservice to others for not warning them? If you know a teacher is teaching for all or many of the wrong reasons, shouldn't you help others not to fall victim to all that?

Or the very least, if you are asked about it, shouldn't you be honest and share your stories?

Now, it is true, though, that making these decisions - whether to speak up or not - can be tough. There is always room for some interpretation; is this just your opinion that no one else shares, and if so, is it because you were in a situation no one else was in and thus you cannot compare your situation to that of others? Or is it that the others are still blinded by the light and therefore cannot give the same testimony? Or is it that you just misinterpreted everything and might ruin a man's reputation for no good reason?

Well, if you are a grown, sensible man, the above questions and others that should arise, are easy to answer. But before taking any action - or deciding not to take any action - they should be addressed. And by action I mean speaking up (not a challenge or anything else like that).

After all, the worst kind of manipulation and brainwashing I have witnessed has taken place in our beloved field of martial arts. This topic is a valid one. Seeing those mislead, religous zealots who abandon their friends because these friends don't study the same martial art anymore is a sad matter. And I am talking about men in their thirties...

So, to speak up or not, it depends on the situation. There clearly are situations where staying in the shadows doing nothing enables the abuse to continue. And by the same token, acting in haste can harm an innocent man's image.

Hold your temper, but once you have made a decision, be bold enough to carry it out!

Cheers :)

Mika

[Mika]

People start and continue because they get something they want.

If they stay with a teacher for a long time they get something out of it and develop a core of knowledge and skill.

Usually, yes, but sometimes that is not the case, and it was to those occurences I was referring. People may think they are getting something they want and they may think they are getting something out of it, but if their minds have been manipulated, they are not setting their own goals anymore, nor do they see anything that isn't shown to them. These kinds of teachers and their schools are nothing short of cults; dangerous sheit.

And the problem of not being able to compare raises its ugly head here again. Allow me to explain. Just like MMA vs. TCM, the thing of it is that MMA guys can usually tell who's hot and whose not, but TCM peeps cannot always be so sure about their own. There are not set standards. Well, it's the same with these cult teachers; if you cannot compare their stuff to anything, how would you ever know? Exactly. Now, what does someone's mind-stealing tendencies have to do with his skills? Nothing, necessarily, but I would say it is highly unlikely that a person of that mindset will advance in anything real. And if someone has advanced in something real, then he probably doesn't have any reason to hide anything (I am not saying that is always the reason, but I know that many times it is).

Anything's possible, you could have a football coach teaching satanism to his players, and the team could still be a good one. However, the chances of that are not that great. Not that there's any type of causality, but it's just that those two rarely walk hand in hand because they are not related, so in essence, the causality is that there is no causality. And still, conscious manipulation is much worse than preaching about something in which you actually believe.
(Satanism I just pulled out from my butt, it's not a real-life example, but hopefully does the trick).

Of course, these are the anomalies, usually people fight over some petty stuff. It's in those cases that everyone should carefully examine the situation before acting or speaking up. In that, I agree with you.

[BibitClerus]

hey gusy
whats hepening

this pel guy who si him?

i dont feel typical unless typically drun and womensless

hey guys
i love you guys, i m not a bad person
ok

i whould be uiet nnow and not wirting
im considered a sick child

my drunk fried says his generation is on anti-depressives
i am alittle younger than them

[Mika]

Geez Mika, you are gettin pretty nebulous here. It's hard to know what exactly you are concerned about. Or Who?


I actually had to look "nebulous" up :D

Like I said in my first post, I am not talking about anyone in particular.



Mostly people are reponsible for allowing themselves to be manipulated. That's a matter of personal responsiblity.

I strongly disagree, my decision to post what I posted speaks for itself. I would guess someone else might share my thoughts or this thread wouldn't exist.
However, this point is more or less OT.



I'm not quite sure what pit you are afraid of falling into but I think if people want to, they can save themselves.

Me? My Shifu now is Master Slawomir Milczarek. I couldn't even think of a better Shifu. Personally I am not afraid of any sheit like that, just the opposite, really.

People can save themselves? This to me indicates you are not familiar with the above mentioned teachers and their schools. It is downright scary how smart, mature men can fall victims to this. I guess you really have to experience it at some level (not necessarily first-hand) to get a grasp at it. In forums like this and threads like this, you can sometimes read some interesting stories from people with personal experience of teachers of questionable character. I think those stories are valuable if even one person in a similar situation re-estimates his or her position under that type of a teacher.

Anywho, most of us, probably nearly all, have great teachers. That's what really counts :)

[Redfish]

Mika

Your new posts are very interesting and strange at the same time - especially since this thread is about Sifu Kai Uwe Pel.

I just want to check first - I was reading around all the mantis sites and I saw that your Mantis teacher was Sifu Jochen Wolfgramm, I saw a picture - are you the same Mika in the picture?

Also if you moved to Sifu Milczarek, you have become one level closer to Sifu Kai Uwe Pel! I saw that Sifu Wolgramm's teacher, Sifu Holger Heek, was Sifu Pel's student and Sifu Milczarek's first teacher was also Sifu Pel.

It's strange how it's all related.

Of course, if you are not the same Mika I saw in the photo, then it's nothing.

[Mika]

Yeah, that's me alright, and the other guy is Tapani (who also goes by his first name here at KFO).

OK. Jochen is a great guy. He introduced us to Tang Lang. The weekend we were there, he also treated us as if we were some royalties or something. And right now he is hosting Jake from the US to further promote the coming-together of various branches of Tang Lang. I have nothing but great respect for him.

So, if you don't believe me when I say I am not talking about anyone in particular (this is now the third time I mention this on this thread), I guess that would be confusing.

The original intention of this thread was to discuss teachers of questionable moral characater. That is all I have been doing. Apparently I have been either too successful or not successful enough with my attempts, I don't know which :D

(And I do think the topic name is confusing, it should be changed to something with no personal names, IMHO).

[brothernumber9]

I'm still not sure how "racism" was construed earlier in this thread. One argued that an ominous and interpratively ambiguous statement about "westerners" and "foreigners" betraying 'ethnically chinese' sifu was racist. I still don't see it.

prejudice and racism are not the same thing.

[Redfish]

Brothernumber9

I'd like to discuss that with you. Just for clarification:

"an ominous and interpratively ambiguous statement about "westerners" and "foreigners""

Could you quote the statement you mean.

And could you explain exactly what you mean by 'interpratively ambiguous'. I could interpret the word 'tree' as ambiguous if I wanted to go into questions of existance and perception. For example.

[brothernumber9]

In the first post, 'westerner' was used in reference to Sifu Pel. Different people then interpreted the word as 'foreigner' and some implied it to mean other Germans, while a few seemed to have implied it to mean 'whites' and one implied it to mean anyone of any race outside of the 'Chinese' CMA community.

Therefore, 'westerner' is somewhat ambiguous. However, I'll assume for this discussion that it meant any non Chinese person going to learn CMA in China.

Redfish then stated:
"If a 'westerner' fell out with his teacher who is Chinese - to then draw the conclusion that you should be careful with other 'westerners' is illogical and racist."

I feel the above conclusion would neither be illogical or racist. It was a logical conclusion after the result of one instance. I beleive most would agree that conclusion to be wrong. Not everything logical is right, or righteous for that matter. I feel the conclusion would be prejudicial but not racist. If the conclusion were to refuse to teach any 'westerner' afterwards, then I suppose it would be racist.

Redfish, I more agree with your statements than disagree. I'm simply being anal about the literal racist. And actually I'd like to correct myself from before; a prejudice based on race is by definition racist, so prejudice and racism can be the same thing. However, I think 'racist' is too strong of a word with extreme derogatory connotations for the context of this discussion.

[Tiger on Duty]

to be honest i have no interest in you guys at all, i have read this entire post it was very entertaining and have realised that most of you read the post wrong and that some few of you are just really not nice people, you im afraid also seem like alot of internet posters and have little patience and humility.

Its always kinda sad when others hijack a legit thread.
Also you may want to be more specific with your thread topics, vagueness breeds wild and ignorant remarks(as i have learned).


Guess its not a fun time being npm.

[shirkers1]

Tiger, actually it is a fun and exciting time for the NPM group.... There are many good things happening to bring the NPM group around the world together to share and grow as a community. BUT there are some individuals out there that are not too happy about this.. Because they either feel that this will water down the system, or bring how poor their skills really are out in the open. I believe that this growth of mantis being sparked by another forum and publications will only help the system grow as well as the community. So the negative remarks you get here are in response to some of those few people trying to bring this new movement down. I think the seed has been planted and there are far too many out there that are willing to share now, and the old thinking of hiding away in a basement to keep what you know hidden is starting to fade. Because there is always someone out there who knows more and that's something you can add to your skills and that's a great thing.

The original post has something to do with this in that if someon opens their door to teach someone and that student turns around and bad mouths their teacher and everyone involved with their former teacher, this just fuels the desire to NOT share and grow. It can also go for a teacher oppressing the student and not letting them grow either... For fear of the student growing faster as a boxer than you, or for fear that the student will realize that you really aren't as good as you say you are and you don't know what you say you know, etc. So it can go both ways and a lot of it has happened in the past and still happens. What this new movement is doing is hopefully getting rid of all this and getting back to the skills and the passing on of these skills so the style can live on stronger than ever.