Wing Chun - Chi Sao

[mantis boxer]

For anyone who trains wing chun, how long did it take you to get to double chi sao? How many times were you training a week? I have heard it takes you about 1 or 1.5 years. Does this sound reasonable?

[Sam]

My Sifu usually intergrates Chi Sao with the learning of Siu Lin Tao, Lop Sao, And Don Chi Sao to rolling hands. This usually takes three to six months. To be masterful at Chi Sao is to intergrate all the forms and weapons concepts. This gives the practitioner different Fa Ging powers and techniques. Chi Sao can also be done at different levels. Free standing, footworks, Chi Gerk, soft body, light skills(on poles), advanced pointing, and Chin Na. Remember Chi Sao is NOT fighting but may be the best asset to enhance fighting ability.

[This message has been edited by Sam (edited 07-23-2000).]

[ATENG]

hello,

i've been doing wingtsun for a little over a year and i've been doing don chi for a while, i think in a few months i'll be starting poon sau and from there on, chi sau. in WT progression is pretty standardized but i'm not sure how it is with other wingchun schools.

abe

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Its all fun and games til someone loses an eye. Then its just fun.

[Sihing73]

Ateng,

Please do not take offense I am curious about how things may have changed since I did WT. When I did WT Poon Sau was introduced at the 8th student grade. Is this still the case?

In response to the original question I would say that Dan Chi Sau is introduced with the completion of the SNT and further refined with learning of the CK. Poon Sau is introduced after the student has had sufficient time in Dan Chi and also been exposed to Lop Sau. It is hard to put a specific time frame on things as each individual person is different. However, I would expect a person to be introduced to Poon Sau within 1.5 years. Still, Dan Chi is very important and will be of more benefit. The problem is many disregard getting a firm foundation in Dan Chi because it is not as much fun and people always seem to want to appear more advanced. Please keep in mind that Dan Chi starts without movement and then progresses to include steps and turns as does Poon Sau.

So basically Dan Chi for 1st form and Lop Sau and Poon Sau with the 2nd form.

Peace,

Dave

[WT]

Hi Dave.

Poon sau is introduced in the 5th student grade.
6th,7th and 8th is the first chi sao section.
The American guy's and myself are doing
Sifu Emin's version of the EWTO training programs.
Sigung Kernspecht has a new book out soon.
It's called Blitz defence,and will contain parts of the new interactive lat sao program.
Or as the American's calls it,anti bar fighting. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
WT

[flavour54]

It took me 1 year and 3 months before I started. I still feel like a baby at it and I have been doing it 3-4 times a week average for 5 months.

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"take the pebble from my hand"

[Sihing73]

Hi WT,

Thanks for the clarification. I went back and looked over my old syllabus just to make sure I was on the right track. When I was teaching WT, back in 87-90 Poon Sau was introduced at the 8th student grade and the 1st through 4th sections of Chi Sau were introduced from 9th-12 student grade, respectively. We were starting to incorporate many of the Lat Sau programs into the curriculim as well. I am assuming there are still 7 sections of Chi Sau being taught.

In any event, we spent a lot of time on Dan Chi as it allowed us to focus on just the one arm and really refine our techniuqe/feeling.

Peace,

Dave

[Sihing73]

WT,

Thanks for the heads up on Sifu Kernsprecht newest book. Now, there is a man I truly respect regardless of whether we are in the same branch anymore. He is probably one of the best people I have ever had the privilege of touching hands with. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Of course he once asked me how I would fight him and win. I replied he could stand about 25-30 feet away from me and I would just shoot him /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif We both laughed at that.

I have rarely seen so much power in a soft refined application. I once put my car in a ditch while visiting him at the castle. You know he came out and actually lifted the back end of the car about 6 inches off the ground and was swinging it around trying to get it out of the ditch. We had to get a tractor but still, I was impressed as he did this with ease. Of course he is getting older now, Shhh don't tell him I said that :}

Peace,

Dave

[ATENG]

Sihing73

Actually, I just got started tonight in the beginning of poon sau!! It makes me feel like a new student again, even though i am still pretty low. I'm officially 3rd student grade, but they have been teaching us 4th and a little of 5th. I'm not sure if this is normal progression, but it seems consistent with berkeley WT.

Abe

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Its all fun and games til someone loses an eye. Then its just fun.

[mantis boxer]

Berkeley Wing Chun? They teach wing chun at UC berkeley? Do all wing chun schools have the 1st grade, 3rd grade levels? How do you know what grade you are in? Is that WC's ranking system?

[flavour54]

We have 10 levels where you get a gold sash after approximately 5-6 years and then there are 7 masters levels till red.

[jojitsu27]

There is no ranking in traditional Wing Chun.
Many Sifu's have added their own ranking system to the style, because many students have a need to moniter their progression with some type of standardized method, much like the karate belt system.
In my lineage Wing Chun (Jiu Wan), you simply have students, Sifu's and of course the Sifu's Sifu - Sigong.
The students have no standardized method of rank, but often refer to their level in Wing Chun according to what form they are learning and the applications that come with it. For instance, a student learning Chum Kiu and the chi saus and footwork and many applications that come with it might refer to him/herself as a Chum Kiu Level student.-jojitsu27

[mantis boxer]

I think the grade system is apart of the commercialization that some sifus try to intergrate into the style.

[Sihing73]

Hello All,

Grading in Wing Chun was just like most traditional CMA's. You had students, disciples and masters. Or Students, Advanced Students and Masters. There was no grade level per se.

However, several Instructors today have added grading to their systems. One can argue that it is simply a product of commercialism, and to a degree you would be correct. Many Americans seem to have a need for some ranking system in order to track their progress and perhaps stroke the ego.

Still, one can also take the view that by establishing some standard of ranking one can get a better handle on the art and insure everyone is learning in a systematic manner. For example, in WT, the goal seemed to be that a student could train in one are and move to a complety different area and be able to pick up his studies right where he left off. In other words if he was 3rd level the new instructor would know what he had already learned and be able to pick up his studies at the same point.

Is grading commercialism, I think yes. Is it bad, I do not think it is a necessarily bad thing if done with the proper intent. Do you need grades, again I would say not really. In the end it is ones application which matters not what one wears on his belt, or shirt ( /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif WT has those patches). I often upset some when I visit Chung Kwok Chows class as I never wear my rank. I admit to having some fun with those that think they are "all that" and like to bully the lower ranking students. Of ocurse I have not visited in a while so perhaps it will be them having fun with me next time /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Peace,

Dave

[flavour54]

Hi all,
My school is aware and very open that "Traditional" Wing Chun doesn't have a grading system as such. I, personally have found it a great motivational tool for the purpose of goal setting. I see what is on the grading curriculum and study up big time on the movements/principles/concepts that I am unsure of. I am also a believer that if you are physically ready it puts you in a closer position to being mentally ready.
In other words gradings/levels ensure I diligently study,train physically and mentally being sure to understand the techniques to a level which is expected of me and being physically fit.You may be correct in that it is a marketing tool but I'm sorry it was the name "Wing Chun" and what I had previously heard about it. And it continues to surpass all my expectations.
And Yes I Am A WingChunaholic.

Peace

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"take the pebble from my hand"

[benny]

i agree with flavour54. we dont have belts or gradings but have to be able to do the thing we learn properly before we learn anything else, which just makes you work harder.
im not sure what you mean by double chi sao as in my school we have single dan chi, double dan chi,rolling,steping back than forward,then chi sao but it took me 2 something years of going every day(twice on some days) and practicing at home. it might be a long time but it just makes you better at what you know.
see ya
THE MORE YOU SWEAT IN PEACE
THE LESS YOU BLEED IN WAR

[WT]

Hi Dave.

Very interesting.Even in the years I have trained there has been a lot of changes in the training programs.
The student grades now only contains the first Chi Sao section.
WT

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sihing73:
Hi WT,

Thanks for the clarification. I went back and looked over my old syllabus just to make sure I was on the right track. When I was teaching WT, back in 87-90 Poon Sau was introduced at the 8th student grade and the 1st through 4th sections of Chi Sau were introduced from 9th-12 student grade, respectively. We were starting to incorporate many of the Lat Sau programs into the curriculim as well. I am assuming there are still 7 sections of Chi Sau being taught.

In any event, we spent a lot of time on Dan Chi as it allowed us to focus on just the one arm and really refine our techniuqe/feeling.

Peace,

Dave[/quote]

[WT]

Hi Dave.
I just met him a week ago.
He is not as big now as he was then,but he is still very fit.
WT
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sihing73:
WT,

Thanks for the heads up on Sifu Kernsprecht newest book. Now, there is a man I truly respect regardless of whether we are in the same branch anymore. He is probably one of the best people I have ever had the privilege of touching hands with. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Of course he once asked me how I would fight him and win. I replied he could stand about 25-30 feet away from me and I would just shoot him /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif We both laughed at that.

I have rarely seen so much power in a soft refined application. I once put my car in a ditch while visiting him at the castle. You know he came out and actually lifted the back end of the car about 6 inches off the ground and was swinging it around trying to get it out of the ditch. We had to get a tractor but still, I was impressed as he did this with ease. Of course he is getting older now, Shhh don't tell him I said that :}

Peace,

Dave[/quote]

[ATENG]

mantisboxer

hehe, sorry, i should clarify that our school is not part of UC berkeley, its just located in the city so i called it berkely wingtsun. most students there are students at Cal though.

abe

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Its all fun and games til someone loses an eye. Then its just fun.

[Sihing73]

WT,
They now only teach one section of Chi Sau for the Student Grades? Wow that is a bit of a change. Do they still have 7 sections? I am deftly familiar with how often things change in a "system". Most of the changes seemed to me, simply variations on what was already covered.

Sifu Kernsprecht is an interesting guy /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I used to hate training at the castle as he often bounced me from the walls. Could never figure out why he would use me instead of my practice partner. H always said it was because I had good technique, but I think he liked knocking the American around. maybe as a result of his British education /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SNT Chi Gung was alwasy taught but not as part of the system. If one stuck around long enough then one was trained in how to incorporate the breathing techniques into the form. Slow practice was the key. Interesting that a program is now being offered at the castle.

Ateng,
Congratulations. Good luck. Poon sau is another layer of the onion. Don't get caught up in the movements but instead play with the differeing energies and learn from them. There are so many sublties one can use. Play with all of it. Use a little more forward pressure and then use very lttle and see how it feels. The basic rolling should be done slowly and with purpose. Insure your elbow position is good otherwise you will have problems later. But, once you get the basic rolling down, play with it and have fun. Trust me you won't be sorry. Remember Chi Sau is not a competition but is a means of learning energy and how to deal with it. It is all about learning to feel the opening and taking advantage of that hole. Conversely it is also about learning how to control the opponent and create your own opening. There is so much to do with it that mastery will take a lfetime. Of course that lfetime can hold lots of fun. Especially when performed with members of the opposite sex. My 1st wife learned WT with me and went to almost as many seminars as I. We would still be together were it not for an automobile accident. Still, we had some fun times.

Good luck,

Dave

[ATENG]

sihing73

sorry about what happened to your wife. thanks for the encouragement!

abe

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Its all fun and games til someone loses an eye. Then its just fun.