Koo Lo/Futshan Yip/White Crane

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


I was watching some interesting footage last night and thought I would share whats its about!

Guys! PLEASEEEEEE Try Not To Highjack This Thread!


So, I recently recieved some footage from China from a friend. A public school from Koo Lo village recently took his pupils around to check out/share/research other Wing Chun/Kung Fu arts. They went to Futshan and visited Yip Man's first students group. (Gwok Fu) At Gwok's house they were all in the backyard demo'ing some of their sets and played some friendly Chi Sao.

The Yip Man/Gwok Fu guys went first. They did the Dummy form and SLT form. Then, the Koo Lo guys did some solo sets and partner sets. Another group that was there was from the White Crane family. They demo'd their Dummy set and one empty hand set.

At the end they all did some chi sao.


There were 2 things that really stood out for me when watching this stuff!

1) The White Crane guy was the only one who totally controlled the guy he crossed hands with.

2) How Yip's first pupils sets were more similar to movements found in Yuen Kay San's sets.


Other than that it was nice to see these groups getting together and sharing with each other!


Have a good one!


:)


Regards,

[PaulH]

Hey Jim,

Can you e-mail me that clip? See my Tan Sau? =D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Jim:

Why don't you post the clips on the VIDEO FOOTAGE thread?

[YiWan]

....2) How Yip's first pupils sets were more similar to movements found in Yuen Kay San's sets.

Other than that it was nice to see these groups getting together and sharing with each other!

Have a good one!

:)

Regards,

Hi James,
:-), always during my stages in China, Guangzhou we try to go with my guys to Fatshan to visit old masters and have together lot of funn and good times (also Kwok Fus son Kwok Wai Jan is going every year to Mai Gei Wongs school celebration in GZH and enjoy with us :-)).
Two of them i like very much - Kwok Fu sifu (85) of "Fatshan Yip Man Wing Chun" and Kwok Gai sifu (more then 90) of "Pa Fa Lin Wing Chun".
So I have lot of footages of Kwok Fus kung fu doing mainly by his son, Kwok Wai Jan and can see very clearly, that Yip Mans Wing Chun in Fatshan has just a little bit to do with his Wing Chun in Hong Kong... Forms, Chisao...different. Fatshan people say, he was changing original for Hong Kong, Hong Kong people say he was not teaching original in Fatshan :-). I dont know :-), dont care about - BUT - the fact is, Fatshan Yip Man is VERY different and close to mainland style like YKS :-), yes :-).
greetings
ivan

PS - btw, here some photos of Kwok Fu sifu and Kwok Wai Jan sifu, son of Kwok Fu, doing some things...

Kwok Wai Jan Chi Sau (http://sweb.cz/irzounek/KwokWaiChiSau.jpg)
Kwok Wai Jan Dummy (http://sweb.cz/irzounek/KwokWaiDummy1.jpg)
Kwok Fu sifu at home (http://sweb.cz/irzounek/kwokfuSedic.jpg)
Kwok Fu sifu at home and IR (http://sweb.cz/irzounek/KwokFuIR.jpg )

[Redd]

Thanks for the photos. What did you see as the main differences between Kwok Fus work and HK wc?

[kung fu fighter]

Hey Jim,
do you have footage of kwok fu's baat gwa bo footwork? Can you explain what was it about and how it was used.

[KPM]

Hey Jim!

Sounds like a very interesting video! :) What was the quality of the FoShan YMWCK in your opinion? Because what Leung Ting shows in his "Roots" book does not make them look very good.....but of course 2D photos are not always very representative. Any way to get a look at this video? Thanks!

Keith

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Guys,


The footage was recorded for me on a vcd. There is some sort of problem with the vcd. 18 minutes into it there are some blur/glich type stuff that actually freezes the vcd. It was not until recently when I watced it again that the entire video was watched. I gave it to my friend who is good with this stuff. He tried to record it on dvd but that blur is causing the dvd to stop burning. We are trying to figure out a different way to burn it. Actually, its out of my hands. I know didly about this stuff and my friend is doing all the work.


Ivan,


Yes, Gwok Fu was there and it was in his backyard I believe. What you wrote was correct. It is different from HK Yip and more similar to other mainly WCK like Yuen Kay San and Mai Gei Wong versions. Even the SNT had a totally different flavor. It was not locked down and moving only the hands. The body was softly moving all the motions. The flavor of the SNT was closest to a soft smooth Leung Sheung stuff with body english driving it.


Gotta run guys!

Will let ya know if it burns!


Regards,

[Hendrik]

1) The White Crane guy was the only one who totally controlled the guy he crossed hands with.




Imhhhho,
to par with the WCK mother art white crane, as it said ' similar style compete, who has the deeper kung or power generation will win'.

power generation include both non-chaos dynamic balance multi-dimensions physical structure which capable to sustaine/adaptive the in coming applied power and force/power issuing which can destroyed the oponent's momentum.

cheap short or flowery technics will not attain much since the oponent will expect to commit will solid attack.


to excel over the sister art the snake body has to be involed .

imhhhho

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


Hendrik is correct with this.

None! Yes none of the Wing Chun guys there could handle the White Crane practitioner. His structure and jing were just too strong for the Wing guys.

But! The thing that bothered me most was that he was using our own art to control the Wing'ers! Butterfly hands were one of his major skills. If I did not see this guy demo'ing his White Crane before I would have thought he was just a tough WC man.

White Crane is a very good system.


Gotta run,

[Gangsterfist]

IMO, all good kung fu should have jing, and the many different releases of jing.

All kung fu should use the whole body, and should use structure, whatever conceptual structure they use, wing chun method or not.

I agree, Whit Crane gung fu is imo a very graceful art, and has a very unique beautiful look to it. It is also effect if trained right, just any other martial art.

I some day would like to learn tiger and crane forms and sets, just because I am a kung fu movie nerd, and always see the tiger/crane combo.

I have already learned and picked up some basic crane, tiger, mantis, and leopard boxing stuff just from training, sparring, and working out with other people.

[Hendrik]

IMO, all good kung fu should have jing, and the many different releases of jing. ----k

you are right however until one clearly define jing. even, those who uses the goat to pull the BMW M5 people will claim they have great goat jing.



All kung fu should use the whole body, and should use structure, whatever conceptual structure they use, wing chun method or not. -----

you are right again, but look at how much jing, whole body structure of kungfuners in general average compare with a average boxer, a Muay thai, a Bjj, ....? how many broken arrow, how many goat pulled BMW? how many with only shoulder muscle power? how many take pride with static structure rooting gimmick but fall miserable when getting into dynamic situation ?
how many couldn't even recognized the basic 27 states and know how to deal with it? how many belive in myth of the olderst but has no sense of reality? imhhho


try to crash a yjkym chi/lok sau platform / sun punch with a white crane sanchin stance / thier chain middle punch ,
and see how far one can sustain from the rapid frontal exchange of fire. If one were force of from this exchange of fire. how much will it take before the total platform, energetic, and contact collapse? those advocate one fist between knees magical, static rooting structure gimmick, and deny the reality of the critical important of awareness of the nature of human physical body go a head and test it out. Imhhhho.

just some crazy thoughts and please ignore me!

[Hendrik]

But! The thing that bothered me most was that he was using our own art to control the Wing'ers! Butterfly hands were one of his major skills. If I did not see this guy demo'ing his White Crane before I would have thought he was just a tough WC man.


,

isnt that Leung Jan's favorite ? butterfly hands? :D

so the problem is we forget the white crane engine, snake engine, or both engines? ;)


I love that Diana Ross old song.

Do you know where are you going to when you look behind there is no open door. where are you going to do you know?
Do you get what you hoping for ...


sorry, for a bad joke or lyrics

[Gangsterfist]

Hendrik-

Lets say the body is an engine, which is a unit of mechanical parts. All the parts work in harmony for one major goal. To output power. You have cylinders, pistols, oil, gas, combustion, valves, etc.

Now if one of those parts is not functioning properly, lets say some spark plugs, then you are running on less cylinders. And not outputting the potiental power you could.

So, the body should all move in harmony with the right structure. Even western boxing says power comes from the ground up. In taiji form, why do they always step (establish the legs) first, then move the body afterwards in their forms? That is for power generation, amongst other things.

White Crane boxing foot work is something that some wing chun people can't handle either. They are fast moving and light on their feet, they can swallow your techniques as they cool their wings. Good white crane also has lots of ba fa jing, and can release from lots of different positions.

[Hendrik]

Lets say the body is an engine, which is a unit of mechanical parts. All the parts work in harmony for one major goal. To output power. You have cylinders, pistols, oil, gas, combustion, valves, etc.------

you are right intellectually. however,
The component you missed is AWARENESS. All the parts will not work in harmony for one major goal without that Awareness.

with Awareness then one goes a step further to aware of the 6 force vectors at every part...... then fa jing...





Now if one of those parts is not functioning properly, lets say some spark plugs, then you are running on less cylinders. And not outputting the potiental power you could.

So, the body should all move in harmony with the right structure. Even western boxing says power comes from the ground up. In taiji form, why do they always step (establish the legs) first, then move the body afterwards in their forms? That is for power generation, amongst other things.------

all of above can be true if only if one has Awareness first.



the body should all move in harmony with the right structure. ----

that also can be a fallacy of not knowing/mastering the truth and limited by the rigid structure. that is the kiss of death.

Why so? ie: a person who has mastering of relaxation knows how to relax in every position comes up without needs to change structure.




White Crane boxing foot work is something that some wing chun people can't handle either. They are fast moving and light on their feet, they can swallow your techniques as they cool their wings. Good white crane also has lots of ba fa jing, and can release from lots of different positions.------

again, AWARENESS is first, until then, all are thinking and open loop action. and AWARENESS doesnt has to be called awareness. all great artists have a great development of it. those who dont have it develop are just robotics immitators knowing not much but exercuting programing step.

so, dont blame on structure or footwork. those can be made up as needed.

and stuck at that goat pulled BMW structure is just dead.



Imhhhhhhhhhho

[Gangsterfist]

Okay hendrik, let me ask you a few things and plz answer them in a non cryptic honest way.

Awareness -

a·ware ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-wâr)
adj.

1. Having knowledge or cognizance: aware of the difference between the two versions; became aware of faint sound.
2. Archaic. Vigilant; watchful.

Having the knowlege? Or are you talking about a state of mind of awareness in buddhism or something along those lines.

To me, the mind has to know, and the mind has to work with the body for it to work properly. However, you do not need to be a buddhist, have a zen outlook, or even have a little thought, or be all knowing with awareness to be a good fighter/martial artist etc. You also don't need that to be able to release into people. Jing can be scientifically broken down with auto kinetics, and how the body works. You say you need awareness.

Was beethoven aware, or did he just play the piano?

Is michael jordan aware, or did he just naturally play basketball?

Was bruce lee aware, or did bruce just train and work hard?

Now, can you extrapolate on this awareness? I am curious to actually see what you mean.

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Gangsterfist]Okay hendrik, let me ask you a few things and plz answer them in a non cryptic honest way.--------K

no problem



Having the knowlege? Or are you talking about a state of mind of awareness in buddhism or something along those lines.------K


Awareness eventhought is the core which zen buddhism specialized with in past thousands of years in the eastern and had been influence many countries and culture, awareness is a nature of living beings which beyond thinking or relegion belief.

one doesnt have to be buddhist to have that 'birth rights ' awareness.

as i have post for many time, Zen is a teaching/tool which specialize in exploring and expanding awareness.

and awareness in Buddhism had been catagorized into 5 level or skandal or realm which is roughly the physical, emotional, mental, habitual energy, and conscious.


It is a fact that the advance martial art of china penetrate the physical, emotional, mental, and habitual energy levels.

it is a fact that the advance level chinese martial art such as taiji, shao lin, and emei 12 zhuang had the record of attained by the past ancestors that they had reach the state and attained of both the healing and destructive capabilities.





To me, the mind has to know, and the mind has to work with the body for it to work properly.-------K

sure.
however, how much does one know how mind works?

such as the manual/using of nim, yee, shan, ...ect? if that was not know, according to the Classical writting, how is the body is going to work with the mind?






However, you do not need to be a buddhist, have a zen outlook, or even have a little thought, or be all knowing with awareness to be a good fighter/martial artist etc. You also don't need that to be able to release into people.------ K



as i post above for many times, zen teaching is a tool.

until some one comes up with a proven better tool. and, since no other tool is better then this tool yet which the chinese martial art ancestors were using, as a messanger, i report what was going on.

if you have any proven better tool adressing the awareness teaching/training of awareness in the 5 skandals above and the training of manual the nim,yee, shen..ect of the 3rd or mental skandal then please present to all.


otherwise, i will keep using the zen term, for i am not at the level as Mas oyama or Wang Xiang-zai who par the white crane. I will keep following the proven martial art experts such as wxz and oyama, so there is no misleading.




Jing can be scientifically broken down with auto kinetics, and how the body works. -----K

that is great information.

but, it really doesnt say much.

it doesnt describe what happen, how it happen, why it happen, and what is the reproduceble process, issuing....etc,
without that what is jing? is one's jing the same with the others? what is the details?

everyone can claim to be scientific most scientific today, but how many knows about issuing Keng Geng?


Too many have claim to be ZEN and Zen, but fail miserablely to demonstrate thier skill in front of the ECG and EEG machines. read about Ken Wilber and others there one can read the data.




You say you need awareness.
Was beethoven aware, or did he just play the piano?
Is michael jordan aware, or did he just naturally play basketball?
Was bruce lee aware, or did bruce just train and work hard?------



everyone ofcause aware to a certain level.

with different people born with different degree of the awareness in depth or in area. some aware more about sound, thus, can become a great musician, some aware of others more thus they becomes good leader in politics...

but the general public like me, who will not aware of why the heck i stress and tigten my tigh every instant, so, i have to first learn to aware of my body.



Now, can you extrapolate on this awareness? I am curious to actually see what you mean.---------k

as i present above.




and, the top secret but also fundamental of why those internal art from TaiJi to yee chuan practicing standing post or zhan zhuang, is to explore and experience holistics awareness of the physical (breathing/qi/connectivity/resultant force), emotion, and metal realm to the mininum.

with that experience penetration into the first 3 realm, one can have more degree of freedom to deal with physical force vectors, emotional of fear, blindness of tunnel vision.

and that above attainment were called kung fu in the past.

kungfu is not about knowing tan bong fok or structure or a set or certain combination drill..or some secret kuen kuit or secret formulars...... but be able to transcent to transform to make use of to adapt...naturally like water.



people these days saying Yjkym, slt...is internal art some goes importing Zhang Zhuang......but how is that an internal art or zhan zhuang/standing post if the teaching and training has no clue and cannot lead one to penetrate into the realm of physical and transcent even?

Awareness expansion is needed for the penetration into the realm. when one aware of a realm on expanded one's awareness into that realm. and, awareness is not thinking or processing a certain top secret formulars from 10000 years ago or stuck at some oldest secret proper structure.

so, to enter the door of internal/alive/nature art. for chinese, the first thing is going through the door of learning about AWARENESS . That is the fundemental vehicle to transport and transcent one to higher level.



WCK, IMHHO, doesnt go put heavy attention with those Kiu Sau stuffs. because Chi (as Chi in Chi Sau) means AWARENESS. If one AWARE of the condition, then one will be able to deal with the condition. A "hand " which can AWARE of the condition and flow with it is A hand with Life. Thus, the mind, doesnt has to memoriezed all type of Kiu Sau. BTW, those memorization, formulars are the 3rd skandal or level stuffs. it doesnt work with those who had penetrate the 3rd skandal or have the awareness of mental level. They can read your fomulars and tricks and using the "disangage and penetrate" to break the turnel vision....



Why do I get into these AWARENESS stuffs earning the unpopularity contest?:D

IMHHHO, watch out for those and the white Crane guy in that clip who has lots of wholistics conditioning, meaning the drill and rehersal they did make them AWARE more then others.

Where like ME, lock blind in the physical level using goat to pull the BMW YJKYM with NOVA logo, blind in the emotional level of I am sooo clam in samadhi while typing my key board or making my post, and stuck in the tunnel vison of keep fantasying the mighty sun punch, the mighty buttyfly plam, the great Leong Jan, the great yik kam kuen kuit or secrete set..etc and still not awake.

it is after all IMHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHO. and I can be dead wrong wrong wrong!


just some thoughts and please ignore this post if you dont like it.

[Gangsterfist]

So basically its knowledge and understanding. Micheal Jordan had this knowledge and understanding of auto kinetics as an inate ability. AKA he was a natural athlete, while others who do not have this inate ability have to train it.

[Hendrik]

So basically its knowledge and understanding. Micheal Jordan had this knowledge and understanding of auto kinetics as an inate ability. AKA he was a natural athlete, while others who do not have this inate ability have to train it.



Yes and no.

Yes if you attain it you can call it anything. No, if you dont attain the level then any terminology or knowlegde or understanding will not get one there.

The reality is the "knowledge and understanding" is not a Knowledge anymore. it is beyond Knowledge. if one uses the "mind" to think about it before Attain it, it is not going to work.



As some like Micheal Jordan who born with excellent ability in " knowing where to look, doing the right thing the right time using the right tools". with some training, he can find out and attain for himself.




Yes,
for who dont have Micheal's born nature ability, one has to learn. Thus, one needs a sifu to coach one to get to the "level" and that is the hard part.


Thus, I have heard.

IE: one can see that some have doing WCK for 30 years but using TKD kick and BJJ grap while sparing. They know all about Tan Bong.... but the art just not fuse in them. One also can see true master of internal art just moving 0.5 step and knock down others without a shape looks like WCK or TaiJi.....

In the old time, if one's awareness doesnt penetrate at least a first few layer/level/skandal, one cannot be a sifu, because sifu has to be able to "see" and correct what he or his students's opps or blind spot. lineage holder has to be even has high penetration in awareness. it is forsure not about keep importing move from others and keep changing sets. because it is all about Awareness stuffs not in those sets and history gossip. The so called indoor student was taught different and the different is this Awareness stuffs. it is a one step deal such as in Zen, get one into the situation and let one realise what is the awareness and the rest one has to cultivate/train/reherse by one's own. Thus, I have heard.

Those old master such as GM Yip Man generation is great because they didnt teach much and thier teaching can be varied, however, they make thier student AWARE and thus the art stick into the students and whatever the students do become the art. instead of today's one has to do this goat pulled BMW JYKYM this way, that way.... and while sparing, lets do TKD kicks and BJJ grap because that seems and feel better or move powerfull. Thus, I have heard.

so, when the eyes knows where to look, what right thing and time to do, and what tools to use every thing is simple. but that is not the same with today's general view of WCK is simple and only have a sun punch. that is not knowing what is simple means at all.

IE one sure sees a master's move is simple but one didnt see how the master Aware of that that 27 states and why the master choose one of the 27.... etc etc. it is sure simple but is it that simple?

Thus, I have heard.



And if one doesnt aware of these things, one can keep Thinking and playing with ideas but will not get too far.

IE. there is a heaven and earth different once one knows how to fajing compare with those who uses shoulder and brute mascular force but never aware of it. Those who uses shoulder might has a fear of what if one cannot sustain the incoming power or.. due to slow acceleration... or pop the shoulder join......etc however, those who knows how to fajing knows, that is not a problem. similar to a banker can raise 300 million dollars and none has to be his own. but that is not just book reading knowledge and thinking, it is alots of things beyond those. Thus, I have heard.


just some what I have heard. so, it is up to every individual who wants to keep tuning the goat's horn this way and that way thinking how the BMW will run but ride a bus or call a taxi when needed to travel, or Aware of what is going on and how the heck a goat is tie infront of this BMW SUV and start from there to explore and someday be able to drive the brand new great BMW suv.

A free thinking world.

[kung fu fighter]

Some footage of this would be great to see!

[reneritchie]

Find some people from Ng Jung-So's line. If they look like YKS, then Yip Man's HK stuff was evolved from what he taught in FS. If they look like YM's HK stuff, than YM's FS students have evolved away from what he taught.

[kung fu fighter]

What's the white crane stuff like?

[hakka jai]

Hi guys,
"Two of them i like very much - Kwok Fu sifu (85) of "Fatshan Yip Man Wing Chun" and Kwok Gai sifu (more then 90) of "Pa Fa Lin Wing Chun".

have you got any footage of Kwok gai sifu perfroming pa fa lin WC??.

Cheer
hakka jai :)

[YiWan]

Hi guys,
"Two of them i like very much - Kwok Fu sifu (85) of "Fatshan Yip Man Wing Chun" and Kwok Gai sifu (more then 90) of "Pa Fa Lin Wing Chun".

have you got any footage of Kwok gai sifu perfroming pa fa lin WC??.

Cheer
hakka jai :)

Hi "hakka jai"" !!!
yes, i have - from Fatshan Jing Mo celebrating and some Yiu Kai Wing Chun school opening. Just - i have all footages just in my camera and dont know how to download it to comp and post...
ir

[hakka jai]

Hi Yiwan,
I'm sure the guys on the forum could help you with this as i don't have a clue as Re to new technlogy.


cheers
hakka jai:)