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qy
07-27-2000, 05:47 AM
Anyone have specs or know where to get specs for a dummy that does not need to be attached to a wall mount?

Sihing73
07-27-2000, 05:55 AM
Right off the top of my head I can offer the following:
WWW.Cougarmountain.com (http://WWW.Cougarmountain.com)
They offer a free-standing version.

I&I Sports also offers a free standing stand
you can call them at 310-715-6800

Or you can try the great Lion Company in Atlanta Georgia, sorry don't know the URL offhand.

There is also a new product I have seen advertised in magazines. This is some type of recycled Dummy made out of recycled materials. Supposed to be pretty good. Sorry don't know anything about it. But, it does show several versions which are free standing. You can probably find an add in a current MA magazine.

If you have access to any of Randy Williams books he gives some specs for the Wooden Dummy and a free standing stand.

Wish I could offer more but I am pressed for time at the moment. Feel free to email me if I can be of further assistance.

dmcknight@home.com

Peace,

Dave

benny
07-27-2000, 07:20 PM
not wall mounted what style do you do. if its wc than i wouldnt buy the randy williams one if its the one that hangs between a door frame. i cant see how you could do proper wc eg the push in the dummy with a free standing dummy if its like a puching bag.
confused

hokyun
07-27-2000, 08:09 PM
qy,there are some blueprints on how to build a wooden dummy at www.spheral.comalmaindex2u.html (http://www.spheral.comalmaindex2u.html) look under text hope it helps

J
07-27-2000, 09:45 PM
qy,

Look at www.azwingchun.com. (http://www.azwingchun.com.) It shows a movable frame. Basically, it's a frame to the plywood on the floor.

J

qy
07-28-2000, 01:20 AM
thanks all!!!
The reason I am asking is because I am a lowly "renter" and can do nothing to my walls that a little white paint wont cover up. I have some friends that are woodworkers that saw "Fist of Legend" and want to see if they can build a wooden man. So I jumped on that one.

I do understand the mounted type is better for many reasons.

Thanks again all!!!... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif




[This message has been edited by qy (edited 07-28-2000).]

benny
07-28-2000, 09:03 PM
i seen one in a mag that was a corner dummy. it was a normal dummy but it didnt need to be bolted to the wall as it was like a corner unit but i asked my teacher and he said that for the step away and kick(hard to explain unless youve seen it) would be hard as you need room to step to the side.
but its worth a look
see ya
THE MORE YOU SWEAT IN PEACE
THE LESS YOU BLEED IN WAR

08-09-2000, 08:12 AM
I know of two options: freestanding or corner unit. There are a couple of companies that have a weighted-base free-standing dummy, but they are $600+US.

When I was renting, I got the corner unit stand from Great Lion (http://www.woodendummy.net). It fits neatly in any corner and lets you go full force without damaging walls. I highly recommend it. If making your own, you can get the ideas of the corner design from Great Lion's website.

Taijimantis
08-09-2000, 09:43 AM
Some of the Senior Students in my Kwoon have a NPM dummy that was designed by our sifu and one of our students. It is a Wooden dummy, the type being a modified NPM style that was seated in a metal cup(for lack of a better word)about 10 inches deep. At the bottom of this cup are welded four coil springs attatched to a metal plate which is in turn bolted into a large piece of wood that sits on your floor and can be attatched by bolting or nailing directly into the floor. (This can probably be done with minimal carpet damage)

The coil springs are from heavy automobiles and will hold the dummy erect, and at the same time give enough when you strike to get the proper feel. Our wall mounted dummmy is held in place with leaf springs for give.

Any ??? let me know...

Namaste.

qy
08-10-2000, 12:28 PM
thanks again for all the help, still working on which design to go with. Thanks for the help!

Braden
08-10-2000, 01:28 PM
You didn't specify wing chun, so maybe this might be interesting:
http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/Bagwazhang.html

Tien Long
08-10-2000, 04:50 PM
Is the wooden dummy used primaryily in Wing Chun or is it used also in other kung fu stlyes?

"Watch the skies, the DRAGON flies!"

Taijimantis
08-11-2000, 12:45 AM
Northern Mantis and I have heard Choy Li Fut use a dummy.

I have Mantis dummy specs, but they are written in Chinese... If you can get them translated....

Chum Kil
06-20-2001, 05:32 PM
Does your Wooden Dummy move from side to side (on it's stand or rack)or is it just stationary? Should it have some play into it. I've seen both and I'm curious. Please explain your theory if any.

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

Starbuck
06-20-2001, 05:46 PM
The ones at our kwoon can slide left and right along the two horizontal 2" supports, and there is some 'bounciness' forward and back. This is supposed to represent the 'give' that a real human body would have to your strikes. Though Yip Man's original dummy in Fotshan was planted in the ground and was therefore pretty solid. He only used the modern frame because he didn't have any room for an outdoor dummy in Hong Kong and needed a way to mount one in his apartment. I think the 'give' in the modern dummies is more a side-effect of the way they must be mounted indoors rather than a deliberate attempt to recreate a human body's reactions. That being said, I don't really think it matters either which way. Dummies don't cry out in pain or go "SNAP!" when you stomp on their knees but I don't think that will ruin your technique when your attacker does. :D

<HR>"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform." - Mark Twain

Sedgimax
06-20-2001, 05:47 PM
I am kinda leaning to it be completly stationary. Didn't they just stick the body of the mook into the ground?

Sihing73
06-20-2001, 07:38 PM
Hello All,

There are two types of Wooden Dummy found in the Yip Man lineage, most have the same but some have more. For example, in Sum Nungs lineage they also have a bamboo dummy with nine arms. Kind of neat really :)

Anyhow here is the common break down, Live and Dead.

A Dead dummy is extended into the ground. This type of dummy has almost no play in it at all. It is very good for developement of a strong stance and for charging energy, ie very powerful forward pressure.

A Live dummy is the one that is usually supported by the two crossbeams in some fashion. There is usually some play from side to side as well as back and forth. This type of dummy reacts to the pressure given and provides some feedback which will not be present with the Dead dummy. If you exert force into the Live dummy and remain in contact you will develope more feeling and sensitivity as you will "feel" the return and have to deal with it. With the Dead dummy your stance will need to be stronger as the force will return to you from the ground. The Live dummy will allow some fo this force to dissipate.

One other thing, the square holes should alos allow a little play for the arms to move in. If you use a technique you can tell if it is correct by the position of where it ends up. For example doing a Right Bong Sau on the Left Dummy Arm the upper left portion of the arm should connect with the left edge of the whole, as you face the dummy. Also the dummy should trun slightly to your left as it absorbs the force.

Hope this is helpful.

Peace,

Dave

PHILBERT
06-28-2001, 08:08 PM
I am going to be building a Wing Chun dummy soon and was wondering if anyone had tips for making one. I would purchase one, but I don't want to spend $300+ on one then another $50+ for shipping. I was going to buy one from a martial arts supplier, but no one around me sells them, so I decided just to build one. I am gonna put the 3 arms on it and the leg base, put some padding on the head, but was wondering if anyone here had tips for making one. Or if there is a site that describes it in detail. Thanks.

Watchman
06-28-2001, 08:10 PM
You can find detailed plans, plus an electronic book that walks you through the whole process at www.wckfc.com. (http://www.wckfc.com.)

PHILBERT
06-28-2001, 08:20 PM
I was reading through the forum and found other posts here about constructing one, so unless there is some new super method to it, no need for anyone else to post. Thank you, Watchman.

PHILBERT

IronFist
06-29-2001, 09:29 AM
I am almost done building mine. Here's what I did.

Body: Fine an 8 inch piece of PVC pipe. This will be about 8.6 inches outside diameter (make sure it's schedule 80, there is another kind called schedule 40 which isn't as thick, and therefore the outside diamter is under 8.5 inches).

Arms and Leg: I bought arms and leg from www.wooddummy.com (http://www.wooddummy.com) They are the cheapest prices I've seen, and they sell just limbs.

Frame: Built from lumber at a hardware store.

The hardest part is getting the holes to be the correct size. First you have to cut them out, and then I ended up spending like at least an hour per hole filing them to the right size.

Measure everything twice, make sure you use a cloth measuring tape since you are working with a ROUND surface.

Don't use PVC pipe as limbs.

Don't buy the crappy PVC dummy from that one company, I forgot their name. It's entirely PVC, even with arms and legs of PVC. It's only 7 inches in diameter, to make things worse!!

PVC bodies with wooden limbs are good tho.

****, this is about the grammatically worst post I've ever made :)

Good luck building dude,

Iron

LeiWulong
06-29-2001, 05:42 PM
I to built my dummy out of pvc piping but to finish it i poured concrete in the body that cemented the arms an leg in place. you could also cap off the ends and fill it with sand. both of these make it much sturdier but make it a #itch to move. And what ever you do make sure you get the thick stuff other wise it'll explode on ya.
==================================================
"Walk on"

TomB
06-29-2001, 08:38 PM
Check out my site buddy!!
It contains a wooden dummy plan, and wooden dummy techniques.
martialartstechniques.homestead.com/files/vechtsporten.html (http://martialartstechniques.homestead.com/files/vechtsporten.html)
It's in dutch, but just go to the technieken and kata's section and click under wing chun on page 1 and so one. Have fun!

Greetz,
Tom

Know what water is by drinking it.

IronFist
06-29-2001, 09:46 PM
Dude you filled your PVC dummy with concrete? Then the arms can't move, right?

And I've heard the thing about filling it with sand... but that doesn't make sense to me. It seems like you could only fill the bottom area up until the leg hole. If you filled it any higher the sand would just come out the holes, right?

Did anyone paint their PVC dummy? Did you use spray paint or what? Spray paint sometimes leaves a nasty coating that I wouldn't really want to be hitting, so any advice here would be cool.

Might I also add, don't buy the "attach mate" that says it can turn your heavy bag into a wooden dummy. Even tho I've never used one, it just looks and sounds really lame.

We should all post pictures of our dummies. Because, um, that would be cool, and I would like to see how other home made dummies look.

(warning, intense hate ahead)

Finally, don't buy a dummy from springtime martial arts, because they're expensive, and their lowest class model has like arms with square corners and the body is flat, not round. And then they sell that "makiwara man." Even funier is that their square mook jong is $850 dollars!!! That could buy TWO wooden dummies from other companies, and the other ones would would be of much higher quality. Then you still have to buy their $200+ stand. Right now their website seems to be missing pictures of their two lowest quality dummies, but if you want to laugh you can still go to:

Spring Time Martial Arts (http://www.springtimemartialarts.com)

The dummy with the square arms is still up, tho, but it's got a half-round body. The flat one is missing right now.

Iron

[This message was edited by Sihing73 on 06-30-01 at 02:46 PM.]

IronFist
06-30-2001, 04:01 AM
Nice job editing my message :)

Did I misspell "funnier" or was that you? I forgot how my original post went.

So, are we not allowed to openly bash and insult companies? Since you took out my bolded line of defamation, I assume this is the case :)

Well, sorry if what I posted was against some rules or something. I'll try to keep it clean next time I have a problem with a company :)

Iron

Sihing73
06-30-2001, 04:32 AM
Hello,

Well, I tried to keep your opinions in the post and take out the, ahem, colorful language used in some of the descriptions ;)

This is in no way personal I just figured that as strongly as you feel you got the message across without the use of some of the language.

As to dissing specific companies I don't really have a problem per se just keep it clean. But hey, I may be old fashioned. The only thing I ask is that one has some experieince with the company before bashing them :p If you have some info to share that can keep someone else from getting burned then feel free to share it. But, the only thing I ask is to try and keep it clean.

Peace,

Dave

chongnoi
07-01-2001, 08:47 PM
I disagree with iron fist concerning Springtime Martial arts dummies. First of all they produce a deluxe dummy that is proper in all demensions ans made with 100% cherry wood that is oiled and waxed. It is quite expensive, around $1300, but quite nice. As for their flat portable wooden dummy. Well, i bought one. with shipping it cost $210. It was very good quality and serves a good purpose. It is easy to take with you if you travel a lot, and does not take up much space. As for falt corners on body and arms-that is not so. They are planed down to have a nice curve on them. It of course is not the same as a real full size dummy. But for a student who does not have a lot of space or money works quite nice. You can still palm strike and kick the sides quite nice. Another good thing about this dummy is that it hardly makes any noise when you work out on it. I reccomended this dummy to one of my students who lives ina colleg dorm-saves space, easy to mount, cheap,and does not disturb others when you work out on it. I wished I had had one of these for my small flat when I lived in Hong Kong. Don't knock a product until you have actually used it or understand it's true purpose.

IronFist
07-01-2001, 10:08 PM
chongnoi,

I must admit their top line dummy looks very good, but still it is $1300. It better be bloody perfect for $1300.

" [flat one] Well, i bought one. with shipping it cost $210. It was very good quality and serves a good purpose."

Do the arms have play in them, or are they solid? j/w.

"It is easy to take with you if you travel a lot, and does not take up much space. As for falt corners on body and arms-that is not so. They are planed down to have a nice curve on them."

They look flat in the pic :P

"Don't knock a product until you have actually used it or understand it's true purpose."

But knocking products is so much fun :)

The entire point of my post was to say that I think there are other companies who make better products, for the money. If the flat dummy suits someone's needs the best, then by all means use that one!

Iron

chongnoi
07-02-2001, 01:17 AM
Iron Fist: The arms are not solid mounted. They have play in them just like a full size dummy-but a much softer feel. It is nice working out on it as it gives a differnt feel than a regular dummy adn it seems to help with being able to stick tot he arms better as you move. Well, $1300 is quite exepnsive for their full size one-but cherry wood is quite expensive. My own personal mook jong is even more expensive and was made for me by a student. It is probably worth $2000. Body is Mahagoney. Arms and cross support slats are Teak. And the Leg is Zebra Wood. It is quite nice. For the money, two of my students purchased dummies from Ashville woodcrafters. www.wooddummy.com (http://www.wooddummy.com) (???) that are really nice. They paid $750 for solid oak dummies and they are very good quality-That is who I would reccomend for wooden dummies. The worst dummies i have ever seen was one a student purchased from Cougar Mountain-over priced and poor quality workmanship. The portable dummy from Springtime was good quality and a good price and is really nce to work out on. They constructed it 100% from hard Yellow Pine and it has stood up to two years of beating so far! I have also had PVC dummies, but I prefer the portable over the PVC-I like the all wood feel. In Hong Kong, where I trained full time for 6+ months, the Ving Tusn Athletic Association has a donated dummy from Ling Ting's organization. It is okay, but you get a much better one from Ashville for the same price. And Ling Tings model has his stupid logo engraved in the front of it.

IronFist
07-02-2001, 02:12 AM
Chong,

Ashville rules! They made the arms and leg for me for my dummy. Their website could be a bit better, but their quality and prices are excellent. Another place wanted to charge me $350.00 for just arms and leg. I could get an entire dummy (PVC body) from Ashville for that price.

I see we agree on something :P

Another place that appears to have good dummies is great lion, www.woodendummy.net. (http://www.woodendummy.net.)

I might as well make a new thread talking about different dummy sites, since there are so many, and apparently other people are interested in this too. Be sure to reply to that.

Iron

wingchunwsl
07-03-2001, 08:35 PM
i and i sports has good wooden dummies. www.iisports.com (http://www.iisports.com) they're laminated and everything... and they're endorsed by randy williams :rolleyes:

wingchunwsl
07-03-2001, 08:36 PM
how long would it take building a dummy anyway? about how much would it cost? thanks. ;)

IronFist
07-04-2001, 10:03 AM
wingchunwsl,

about this much:

8in inside diameter PVC pipe: $35 (approx)

arms and leg: probably around $130-160 depending on wood choice, etc, from www.wooddummy.com (http://www.wooddummy.com)

Lumber: I dunno, depends on your frame.

Don't forget to factor in all the time you will spend working on it to build it, probably an hour or so fileing each hole to the correct size, then building the frame. Measure twice, cut once. Cut smaller holes, and file them to the proper size. Otherwise, you may cut the holes too big.

If you can afford it, you might want to consider buying a PVC one with wooden limbs from Great Lion or Asheville Woodcrafters, but remember that stands are extra.

Iron

gou quan
12-04-2001, 04:46 PM
Hello everyone,

For people looking for a wooden dummy,

A couple years ago I wanted a wooden dummy for my training. As anyone who has looked for a dummy knows, the selection is limited, the prices are high, and most of them will take over your entire house. I started looking at portable dummy's and I found PVC and plastic things that didn't look like they would last. I am an engineer by trade so I designed and built myself a free standing, portable wooden dummy. It fits in a corner, is made of actual wood, has a beautiful finish, and has been taking abuse for a couple years now. Everyone who saw it said, "You should be selling those". So a sometime later, after refining the original design and talking to people with more knowledge about WC than me, we are now offering a free standing, wooden dummy (actually made from wood) for a reasonable price. To check it out go to:

www.urbandummy.com


We were just at Dragon Fest so 'hello' to any of you guys I talked to there!

IronFist
12-04-2001, 06:18 PM
Why did you make the front of it flat?

j/w

Iron

yuanfen
12-05-2001, 04:53 PM
Re quo quan's dummy. IMO it wont do much for a person learning wing chun moves.!

gou quan
12-05-2001, 06:00 PM
We received a great deal of feedback from many, many martial artists at Dragonfest (including one well known WC teacher). While there were a lot of questions and suggestions ("you could've done it this way or that way") everyone seemed to really like the design of the dummy. The main criticism was that the body should be more round, in response to this we are now looking at going to the rounded front dummy. As it says on the website, the dummy's are custom made to the users height. So in response to IronFist we will shortly be offering the dummy with a round front. As to yuenfan's opinion, everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion but the hundreds of WIng Chun people who tried the dummy didn't seem to agree with you. Let me emphasize, we are trying to offer a product that until now hasn't been available. An affordable, free standing wooden dummy that can be used by someone that lives in an apartment or who has limited room for training equipment. We have already sold quite a few dummies and everyone has been a satisfied customer.

yuanfen
12-05-2001, 06:24 PM
quo quan- enough of the sales pitch. You have made your announcement.Good luck with your dummy.
You are not by any means the first to offer a free standing dummy or a height adjusted one. I am glad that you recognize the need for a round dummy body. There is more...

Chuk Hung
12-05-2001, 06:35 PM
Gou Quan,

Excellent craftmanship with your dummy. It is truly a work of art. But my only problem, other than it not being round, is the base that you are using to support the dummy. I know it is difficult to judge by a picture. The base is not recessed enough for side entry, it is just too far out, preventing a person from stepping in.

As a Wing Chun practitioner, the dummy form has numerous entry techniques, requiring us to move into the dummy at an angle on both sides. I have my own portable, free-standing dummy, from Immortal. It is not made of wood like yours, but made of high density, compressed polymer. It feels and weighs as much as dummy made of oak. I keep it in my basement, which gets pretty damp. A wooden dummy would not be good, since it will crack with the changes in humidity. The base is small, and with the body of the dummy placed foward, for easy side entry. Check it out at:
www.immortal-usa.com

vingtsunstudent
12-05-2001, 08:28 PM
i'm sorry but i have to agree with yuanfen.
there are only 2 reasons why these people would like it if they say they are from wing chun.
1. they odviously really don't know wing chun
2. they are just being polite
there are reasons for the dummies shape, diametre, hieght, even down to the width of the frame if you want to be fastidious. if these need explaining then refer to piont 1. or wait til' your up to that part or the training.
i am not saying that there are not some drills that someone may come up with & find your dummy useful for(innovation is always good as long as it complies with wing chun fundermantals) but for the dummy form there is no substitute for a real dummy.(and no i don't mean me, your girlfriends/boyfriends, or the less interlectual in your classes.):rolleyes:
vts

gou quan
12-06-2001, 01:12 PM
OK, no more sales pitch : ) I do appreciate any feedback from other martial artists. The side entry techniques will not be affected by the stand. I know it is hard to tell from the picture but in reality there is plenty of room. As far as the "there are reasons for the dummies shape, diametre, hieght, even down to the width of the frame if you want to be fastidious" comment, the dummy height should be constructed for the person using the dummy. I don't know what you mean by "shape", as far as the width of the frame, yes I'm sure there is a traditional frame width but a lot of people don't have room for such a large structure. As I have told other people who have questioned the traditionalism of our dummy, if you want a traditional, full rack system go buy one. Our dummy is for people that don't have that option (or that much money). There will always be people who are full of negativity who will say, "it's not traditional enough" or "a traditional dummy is built this way or that way". My response is, if that's what you want then by all means go buy a traditional dummy. I know there are a lot of martial artists out there who would rather have a not-so-traditional dummy they can afford and use rather than looking at pictures of dummy's they will never be able to own.

Mokujin
12-06-2001, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by yuanfen
I am glad that you recognize the need for a round dummy body. There is more...

Sifu YuanFen-

In your opinion, what are the most important aspects / features of a wooden dummy? Thanks for your time.

Mokujin
:D

Majic Sam
12-07-2001, 04:35 PM
In no particular order.
Realistic weight
Durability
Attention to detail
Action
Quality of materials
Relation to practitioner's size
As for action,depends on your needs.Beginners in W.C. might want less resistance,advanced,more resistance.JKDers might want more springiness,options like higher legs,neck contours,horizontal side legs,etc.

"Gung Fu is Gung Fu,it's not childsplay"-Bruce Lee

yuanfen
12-07-2001, 05:45 PM
Sifu YuanFen-

In your opinion, what are the most important aspects / features of a wooden dummy? Thanks for your time.

Mokujin
--------------------------------------------------------
You might want to visit my site at <www.azwingchun.com>. My part of the site is on the left. On the right side is my students site
and I have written a short piece on the dummy for him. Red Lion in Georgia also makes a decent dummy and Wing Lam imports some from China.But some imported dummies have the top arms misaligned horizontally. I dont like to see Yip Man wing chun watered
down though I am prepared for reasonable adaptations which do not violate some basic wing chun principles. Yip man himself shifted from the buried dummy to the apartment dummy with slats but the principle remained i.e. a little springy- a little give but not too much so that the practitioner adjusts and becomes flexible and mobile, develops his/her wing chun footwork but does not sacrifice structure. Bruce Lee never learned the wing chun dummy form and went off on a tangent with his own ideas. Since then some JKD folks and even some wc folks just beat up on dummies without understanding the concepts behind each motion and put all sorts of springs and contraptions which slows down good wing chun development. I have no problem with an
apartment stand alone dummy if it is stable and fairly solid. I like the feel
of hardwood- one senses the transfer of energy. Metal or even PVC does not do that to the same extent and softwood becomes loose and breaks up fast. Hope that helps. In any case I tried to respond to your question. Good wishes.

Majic Sam
12-08-2001, 03:42 AM
JKD and Wing Chun dummies both work well for their different approaches.JKD being more agressive and less detailed requires a heavier dummy with more spring,whereas Wing Chun is more precise and sticky.Trapping cousins.

It's most important to maintain and control while adapting to a fixed structure.Oddly enough it was Hawkins Cheung who said that learning the first third of the dummy form would probably be enough for most people,some of the time.Once you have the principles,body unity etc. the ability to improvise and flow become just as valid when viewed as a training aid.Different perspectives arise(Filipino destructions and zoning principles),and imagination stretches.That can't be so bad if practiced in a balanced way.

To me,dummy quality consists of 3 things
1.value vs. co$t
2.users needs
3.the builder

If the basic design strays too far,we're getting into something 'not' Wing Chun.Trapping cousins,perhaps.Afterall,no styles is omnipotent enough to patent a fighting range.Muay Thai have an effective clinch etc.Learn from each other,hopefully take risks and make wise choices along the way.Only the brave and determined get anywhere.If someone wants to bust a few more angles on a dummy,some side legs or a neck grove isn't a big threat to trapping practice as a whole.Thanks for letting me rant.

IronFist
04-11-2002, 04:47 PM
While I'm in my jerky mood...


Originally posted by gou quan
We received a great deal of feedback from many, many martial artists at Dragonfest (including one well known WC teacher).

This is like the opposite of name dropping. Was Ashida Kim's secret teacher also there?


The main criticism was that the body should be more round, in response to this we are now looking at going to the rounded front dummy... So in response to IronFist we will shortly be offering the dummy with a round front.

Four months later, dude, and no round front dummy on your website.

IronFist

AdrianUK
04-12-2002, 04:24 AM
Talking Dummies

Anyone tried the Pagoda dummy ? It says its made of sections of wood, its in a free standing frame (looks like the immortal framed dummy) and its only £325 (UK). They say they keep the price down by not using a solid body but offer a guarantee against breaking and splitting, anyone seen one or used it ?

Thanks

gnugear
04-12-2002, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by AdrianUK
Talking Dummies

Anyone tried the Pagoda dummy ? It says its made of sections of wood, its in a free standing frame (looks like the immortal framed dummy) and its only £325 (UK). They say they keep the price down by not using a solid body but offer a guarantee against breaking and splitting, anyone seen one or used it ?

Thanks

Is there a link somewhere with pics?

AdrianUK
04-15-2002, 02:53 AM
Heres the link the Pagoda Site

http://www.woodendummies.co.uk/pagoda.htm

I thought the frame was free standing but its wall mounted, anyone got opinions on this ?

Mokujin
04-15-2002, 03:38 AM
Take this has constructive criticism from a potential customer...

Why would I pay 600 dollars (which is not affordable), plus 75 dollars for shipping for a flat dummy when at Woodendummy.net, I could purchase a round PVC dummy WITH space-saving corner stand for 25 dollars more ($625 total vs. $674 total)??

Also, Woodendummy.net as well as other pages (Asheville, Sifu Joy's site, etc) are Right-Click enabled. So if I wanted to show my sifu who didn't have an Internet connection for his opinion of this Urban Dummy (sounds like the Urban Sombrero), I'd have more difficult time with screen prints. Why disable this feature? :confused: However, IE 6 can get around this problem.

**Next**

Regarding the Pogada dummy, my only concern is the extra joint in the leg seen here. (http://www.woodendummies.co.uk/images/dummy%2026.jpg) Couldn't it be angled in such a way that creates one less joint/stress point? Why is it needed? Any ideas?

I'd love to hear from those experienced folks out there...

Peace!
:D
Mokujin

sunkuen
04-15-2002, 07:26 AM
"Why disable this feature? However, IE 6 can get around this problem. "

How can you get around it?

IronFist
04-15-2002, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Mokujin
Couldn't it be angled in such a way that creates one less joint/stress point? Why is it needed? Any ideas?


I dunno. It looks like they just did it that way so the leg goes through the body at a more horizontal angle without having to change the actual angles of the leg (ie. the leg still sticks out of the dummy at the proper angle). While an extra joint does create more stress, maybe they had a reason to do it.

Normally, though, I would assume the leg would be one piece from the end that goes through the dummy to the knee joint. Then, one piece from the knee to the bottom.

Actually, that one might be one piece too. Look at the light strip that runs through the upper part. If it's one piece I'm sure it's strong. If it is actually 3 pieces (a new piece at every angle) then it's probably weaker.

Mokujin check your email.

IronFist

IronFist
04-15-2002, 09:16 AM
That leg is weird. The angle that it goes through makes it look weird. Look in this pic:

Also, it looks like it touches the floor.

Here (http://www.woodendummies.co.uk/images/dummy%209.jpg)

IronFist

IronFist
04-15-2002, 09:20 AM
I know, let's email them. However, while we've ripped on some really crappy dummies in the past, this company, while not perfect, you have to admit has some of the better looking dummies considering what we've seen.

Crappy dummies have included:

The flat bodied ones
The square armed ones
The superman dummy
The weirdest one (http://www.aka-thedummy.com/AKA_The_Dummy_story_page2.htm)
etc.

So, because this company doesn't suck too bad, I mean, they did do a good job lining up the upper arms... the left one isn't 3 inches higher than the right one, let's not be too mean if we email them.

IronFist

Mokujin
04-15-2002, 07:29 PM
IronFist-

My onebox.com email is gone. I've updated my profile, so I should be able to get your email. Pls resend.

My point is they don't need the extra joint because the angle they cut through the body for the leg can be the proper angle so only the trditional knee joint is needed. True- this company does look more legit than most of the wanna-be dummy companies.

Ironfist- did you make your leg or did Gaphetto at Asheville handle that?

Lay off the weird dummy, man. It took 5 years to develop!! It's gotta be good!

Sunkuen-

With my IE6, if you hold your mouse cursor over an image, three little icons will appear. One of those icons is a disk. Click it and it allows you to save the image. I didn't do anything special to enable this feature- it seems to be a default when I upgraded from 5.5 to 6.

Rene Ritchie-

What's the history of the dummy? Wondering if there's more than just the hall of training devices... Did that nun really invent it?

Thanks to all...

Gou Quan- still waiting for a response.

Mokujin
:D

Hau Tien
04-16-2002, 08:28 AM
I'm not sure about the "main" branch of 7 Stars praying mantis, but in the branch I study we use a special wooden dummy unlike the wing chun dummies I've seen.

Our dummy has no leg on it, has the traditional 3 arms, but instead of being wall mounted or having a stand of some sort, it is bolted to the ground.

How is this different? Well... it also spins at the base, so that if the person using the dummy goes faster than he can, he gets a smack from one of the arms. Makes for an interesting practice session if you lose focus for a second ;)

I've got to ask my Sifu for the design... it's a pretty cool dummy, and I'd like to get my own for practice while at home.

Any of you seen/heard of similar types of dummies?

Hau Tien

IronFist
04-16-2002, 09:13 AM
Mokujin, Asheville made the limbs for my dummy.

IronFist

IronFist
04-16-2002, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by Hau Tien
I'm not sure about the "main" branch of 7 Stars praying mantis, but in the branch I study we use a special wooden dummy unlike the wing chun dummies I've seen.

...

Any of you seen/heard of similar types of dummies?


In a book I saw a Mantis dummy once. It looked like a big cross with arms sticking straight out of the horizontal cross piece. But, it was a dark black and white picture so I couldn't really tell more.

IronFist

reneritchie
04-16-2002, 01:33 PM
History of the dummy? I've seen various accounts, including the Mook Jong Hall. One old article claimed it cam from the "mast dummy" taught to the Red Junk by an old coastal fisherman. Many stories say it was introduced as part of the Weng Chun Kuen system, along with the 6.5 pole.

WRT the Mantis Dummy, its my understanding this came about when the Chin Woo started sending representatives south and they came into Foshan and later Hong Kong, encountered WCK people, and thought it was a good piece of equipment to train with. (Note: WCK dummies were traditionally not mounted on supports or stands but were buried several feet into the ground and surrounded by loose earth).

Rgds,

RR

kungfu cowboy
04-16-2002, 04:30 PM
What really gets my goat (riding stance...wacka-wacka) is this type of advertising info that I've seen on a lot of dummy sites.
Each wooden dummy that Pagoda manufactures is handcrafted from the finest kilndried hardwood timbers available. WHy don't they tell exactly what kind of wood it is? Their idea of "the finest hardwood" might be plywood. Seems like a scam to me. I would want to know what kind of wood I am paying $600-1200 for. It's sort of an important little detail quite a few places overlook.

Mokujin
04-16-2002, 10:23 PM
"What really gets my goat (riding stance...wacka-wacka) ..."

LOL @ KungFu Cowboy. However, you bring up a good point. Dropping 600 bones, you need to know exactly what you're getting. So I emailed'em to find out.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt before labeling Pagoda a scam / rip-off! :D

I think I saw a Mantis dummy once. It wasn't has dynamic as the wing chun dummy. Pretty static- like a pole with two arms coming out, as I recall. Not to say there's anything wrong with that...

Peace!
Mokujin

Mokujin
04-17-2002, 09:21 AM
Straight from the Pagoda's mouth:

"Thanks for your email regarding our handcrafted Wooden Dummies. In answer to your question, the timber that is used in production of each of our wooden dummies is kiln dried and is monitored throughout the kiln drying process to ensure that the moisture level is perfect and is not to moist or to dry in the finished product.

My company is primarily involved in the production of high end furniture for the USA, and the quality of finish on each Dummy is made to the same standard as the furniture we produce. Apart from being lacquered by hand, we also use the latest 2pac glues and hand picked timbers to produce what we believe is the finest Wooden Dummy available anywhere at the most competitive price.

The trunk on our new dummy is made from 5 pieces of laminated "Xoan Dao" which is a very high quality timber sourced from managed forests in Asia, and the arms and legs are made from "Yellow Bilao" which with it's long grain structure is ideal for the types of abuse a wooden dummy will be subjected to in training.

I hope this answers all your questions, and when we launch our new dummies in June I will send you pictures so you can see the quality of the new design.

Kind Regards

Alan Foley
Owner"

That wood sounds exotic. Anybody know more about it?

Peace!
:D
Mokujin

dezhen2001
04-17-2002, 09:44 AM
Never heard of Xoan? It's not even a chinese word as far as i know... unless you mean Xian? But then i dunno...

david :)

kungfu cowboy
04-17-2002, 10:51 AM
Why didn't they say what kind of wood is perfectly kiln dried?

IronFist
04-17-2002, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Mokujin
Straight from the Pagoda's mouth:

Apart from being lacquered by hand, we also use the latest 2pac glues

Dude. It's 2Pac.

Ask them why they use Chinese wood when the humidity is different in America?

IronFist

Phenix_Eye
04-22-2002, 09:10 AM
how does a corner dummy work?

thanks

IronFist
04-22-2002, 10:05 AM
A corner stand? It's just designed to be kiddie-cornered <sp> in the corner of a room so it takes up less space.

www.woodendummy.net has an example.

But a "corner dummy," I've never heard of that.

IronFist

Phenix_Eye
04-22-2002, 04:05 PM
thanks

so it still has two posts but with additional supports at the back that fit in the corner.

Vegita
11-15-2002, 10:04 AM
I was wondering, does anyone have a dummy in their apartment? I live in an apartment, and I was thinking of getting a dummy, but I'm thinking it'll be entirely too loud for the people around/beneath. Anyone else ever face this? I do have an outside patio, perhaps I can put it there...

Shisio
11-17-2002, 09:58 PM
Wow, I never quite expected that question. But yes, I have a WC dummy in my apartment. The noise isn't really an issue, but it is with the heavy bag (which had to go). Just to be on the polite side, I usually train my harder techs during the day, and save form and speed for the evening. Though I've never had complaints about the dummy even when I occasionally hit it hard at night. But if I do jump rope the lynch mob knocks on my door. I recommend keeping it indoors unless there's a space issue, but you should be ok in regards to sound.

If anything bothered your neighbors it wouldn't be the sound of you hitting the dummy, but of the the reverb that gets sent threw your dummies legs. If that is a prob- then just pad the dummies footing a little.

But please don't put your dummy on the patio, unless its plastic. The thing would probubly rot away, not to mention the lack of space for your training. Unless you have one of the few kick arse huge patios, where it'd be safe from the elements.

But good question, I wonder how many had no idea. Good luck-
P.S. If you can, could you tell me where your going to get your dummy and price- just for sh^ ts and giggles.

Vegita
11-18-2002, 04:28 PM
Yeah, that was the issue I was thinkng of, not so much the sound of me striking the dummy, but rather the vibrations going to the ground from the dummy. Well I guess I'll wait till I get my own house to get one, then devote a room to Wing chun!

I saw a pretty good looking dummy from www.wooddummy.com, their dummies appears up to par. I also saw dummies for sale on www.azwingchun.com that seems well made, but their dummy website has been down for a while.

By the way, thnx for the reply, I was starting to think no one would be answering this post.

yuanfen
11-18-2002, 06:24 PM
Vegita- the guy on the site that has been taken
down temporarily still turns out very well crafted dummies slowly one by one.(I dont have a business connection. I dont sell equipment, shoes, uniforms, belts or sashes)) He just got tired of ignorant folks interested in plastic and pvcs and of course at very low prices...asking for advice but not really interested in gettinga good dummy. His own dummy is an apartment dummy on a movable platform. He has added some sound proofing and lowering vibration under the platform features on his own dummy and he
plays on it when the neighbors are gone. Adjustment. Just as Ip man adjusted when he moved to Hong Kong.

Shisio
11-21-2002, 03:58 PM
Vegita, honestly I think you should go for it- it'd wouldn't even be a bothering as loud music. Sure you can't do hard hitting when people are in bed, but in apartments no one can do any hard training at that time. I wouldn't let the idea go- it's damm cool to be able to train with that thing at home.

wingchunalex
11-21-2002, 06:37 PM
I live in a mobile home so space is a concer. the noise issue i really don't have any advice for that. but immortal brand dummies are great. thats what i have. i have the ground level base (not the large frame kind) and it works great. since immortal brand is made out of this resin plastic polymer (think thats what it is but its as heavy and as hard a wood) you can put it ouside uneffected by the elements, no cracking or splitting due to temperature changes.

Bill_G
04-09-2003, 09:45 AM
Does anyone know of a place to
order a good quality inexpensive mook joang?
I don't want to spend more than $700.
Thanks

foolinthedeck
04-09-2003, 09:48 AM
if you lived in great britain we'd say from pagoda imports over the web, they sell good quality dummies from £350.

wingchunalex
04-09-2003, 12:26 PM
I got a immortal brand recycled resin dummy and I love it. It works just as well as a wooden one and won't break down over time and the base is small (the base that fits around the botton of the post) and very sturdy (it fits in my room in my mobile home).

While I was at college first semester I took it to my wing chun school and let people use it their, since then i've taken it back home though.

My sifu liked it and said that is the kind he will get when we get a new dummy.

I think the price is $650-$700.

I think immortal's web site is something close to this but i don't remember. www.immortal_usa.com ?. i'm not sure thought.

blkbelt65
08-29-2004, 01:30 PM
For those of you looking for detailed plans......

check user name KENSVINGTSUN on Ebay. I just bought them. Awesome Plans lots of details w/ training advice. They're only 2 bucks!!! From the looks of the ad he trained traditional VT with Moy Yat. I talked to him a couple times through e-mail; seemed like a nice guy and pretty knowledgeable. Here's the one I jsut bought - item Number - 3695829511

Shooter
09-07-2004, 12:30 PM
Hey, Ken. Sounds good. Will he/you send it on the same day that I order it? :p :rolleyes:

socal78
10-23-2004, 09:21 PM
sorry posted in the wrong forum earlier..

that is the correct height for the WC Wooden Dummy?

Thanks

AmanuJRY
10-24-2004, 09:41 AM
Are you asking what height to mount the dummy?

or, how tall should the trunk of the dummy be?

(are you building one, or just mounting it?)

As for mounting, IMO, it should be mounted so the arms of the dummy are at your arm/chi sau level.

wing nut
10-24-2004, 03:45 PM
I would just build the dummy to match your size. Sink into your stance first. Make the top a couple inches abouve your head. Arms line up to your arm pit height.

socal78
10-25-2004, 07:01 AM
THanks for all the info,

realdeal2
09-06-2006, 03:45 PM
Hi...can anyone recommend a good place to purchase a wooden dummy. I was told that Koo Sang makes very good dummies, however they no longer do that.

In addition, I am looking for a traing partner in Los Angeles, CA.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Al

nojack
09-07-2006, 12:38 PM
A direct disciple of Yip Man later years, in his 80's now who lives in Rosemead, Ca. is still making Mok Jong, but is very pricey though.

Design Sifu
09-07-2006, 02:05 PM
HERE is were you should purchase your wooden dummy (http://www.martialartsmart.net/Wooden_Dummy.html) for obvious reasons . . .

Chief Fox
09-07-2006, 03:26 PM
Make your own. I did. Here's how I did it.
http://www.mccarriedesign.com/wooden_dummy/

Design Sifu
09-07-2006, 05:10 PM
Some of those pics look awfully familuar. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=677)

leejunfan
09-11-2006, 09:07 AM
Interesting that my post got deleted. :rolleyes:

OK... I'll repost. The dummies located at the link that designsifu provided in my humble opinion are not very good. I have used them and can honestly say that you can get better quality with exacting specifications according to family lineage and so on at http://www.wingchundummys.com/Index.asp or http://www.woodendummy.net/

I do not work for these companies so please do not think I am trying to sell them on you. In the end it's your choice. If the admins here however have a vested interested in the link designsifu provided then I would think they should take pride in their dummies and not be afraid if someone brings up another competing manufacturer. Like the pride we take in our martial arts..... only the fearful get worried if another school opens up down the street.

This is after all a forum for sharing knowledge and experiences. My opinions should not threaten the admins personal choice.

Thank you

Chief Fox
09-11-2006, 09:16 AM
Some of those pics look awfully familuar. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=677)
Hey, I didn't even know that my article was published yet. COOL!

AndrewS
09-11-2006, 09:49 PM
Al,

cranes productions makes very nice dummies, and will deliver in the LA area sometimes.

I'm in Silverlake. Practices are at my house Mon, Fri, and Sat.

My bro has practices in Redondo Beach Mon, Weds, Sat

Our si-sok's classes are in Santa Monica Mon, Tues, Thurs, Sat, I believe.

Andrew

stainlesschi
11-07-2006, 06:09 AM
anyone have advice on where and where not to purchase a dummy online please

Chief Fox
11-07-2006, 08:52 AM
anyone have advice on where and where not to purchase a dummy online please

You can make your own.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=677

or check my website:
http://www.mccarriedesign.com/wooden_dummy/

stainlesschi
11-07-2006, 03:39 PM
cant be bothered making one and im in uk mate

Chief Fox
11-07-2006, 04:07 PM
cant be bothered making one and im in uk mate

Sorry to hear that.

OneHitter
11-09-2006, 01:38 AM
http://www.wing-chun.nu/cwc_equipment_shop.htm

These are as good as they get but keep in mind I bet the shipping would be high =).
I cannot reccomend these higher, they are great!

banterer
02-04-2007, 03:27 PM
Hi Joel,

I contacted them and they do not take credit cards. Everything is cash - 50% down and COD.

You've purchased from them personally? I just don't want to see my money disappear.

Thanks,
Jorge

Ernie
02-04-2007, 03:45 PM
just got 2 of these http://www.wcarchive.com/wcasites/buickyipwingchun/dummy-photos.htm

great feel , but make sure you get a good one , one of mine had cracks and flat spots


best quality i have seen are these http://cranesproduction.com/pdut_detail.asp?cate_id=2&pdut_id=3

i have seen at least 10 and there all perfect ,,guys are real pro's

Carl D. is the canton dummy guy and he wont screw you , i was going to get his but having the chance to get a [Koo Sang ] style dummy , i had to jump on that !

Good luck

banterer
02-05-2007, 12:02 AM
Thanks for the link and info Ernie but how do you propose I make sure "to get a good one"?

k gledhill
02-05-2007, 07:09 AM
The only real things to check for a 'log 'o' wood' are like you would any wood item. Ensure its seasoned properly...if its not it may crack depending where you keep it...basement or backyard, hot or cool environment...or moving from damp cool basement to a hotter area ....it may start to dry out etc... so prepare to use oils to seal it . I did just to be safe, I have a koo sang version . My old sifu did the same using oils , his started to split [ a koosang version but heavier wood] moving from basement for years to a penthouse apt , hotter...
the leg should be one piece if possible , the arms are cut so the shafts are offset allowing them to be turned to be level not one higher than the other as some do...its to develop elbows so why have an elbow suddenly higher on one side ? .... the support wood slats shouldnt be to wide or it will either be to ' floppy' or the wood will break as you hit the dummy body repeatedly....the stand in ernie's advt I used as a template , you can build similar for $70-$80 of wood.
the dummy arms should be the length of your forearms and a fist roughly, the angle the 2 arms make inside should be an acute triangle from SLT . When putting the arms in the dummy, the shafts should be high and low not to the sides or the angle is too wide.
The base supports should'nt impede the footwork when you move to the flanks , the one in ernie's ad wont , but if its at right angles the extendidng support may make you stay to far out from the ideal flank spot...the dummy support slats [ slide through it ] should have several height adjustment spots to allow for correct elbow levels while manouvering around it... if its too high [ the dummy] it will affect your development...same for shorter / taller students ...its not the same for all so should be movable...SLT elbows [example tan] should be able to just step in without lifting the elbow, important, if it does you simply offer levers to people not a tight angle to explode from.
hey its just a piece wood right !? lol :D

Airdrawndagger
02-06-2007, 09:43 AM
I purchased a dummy from Ethan about 8 months ago and I must say I was and still am impressed with the over all quality, craftsmanship, and beauty of these dummies. They come from Indonisia and he had crafts them according to your height, arm reach, etc. He uses only teak wood which is one of the hardest and best types of wood to use for a dummy. The cost is a little more than most, and the time it will take to get one will be several weeks, but well worth the investment in both time and money considering the length of time you will own one.

http://www.woodendummy-eli.com/wdummy/wdummy1.htm

This is the site. Check it out and say that Ricky from Florida reccomended you.
He will take care of you.

Regards,

Rick

k gledhill
02-06-2007, 11:38 AM
arms arent level..... ??

Airdrawndagger
02-06-2007, 02:02 PM
The arms on mine are not level and works fine for me, but you can request to get level arms if you want them.

Rick

Ernie
02-06-2007, 04:40 PM
arms arent level..... ??

Agree with Kev on this one ,,,,, plus leg [ from the photo ] sticks to far out

try and find [ Koo Sang style ]

at first you might think there are the same but as time goes on you start to see the Diff . ;)

Chuanfa@sbcglob
02-19-2007, 09:10 PM
just got 2 of these http://www.wcarchive.com/wcasites/buickyipwingchun/dummy-photos.htm

great feel , but make sure you get a good one , one of mine had cracks and flat spots

Good luck

Ernie,

Which did you get. The Marble Wood or the Drywood dummy? Which is preferable if cost really was not an option - Teak? Marble Wood? Drywood?

Ernie
02-19-2007, 11:07 PM
Ernie,

Which did you get. The Marble Wood or the Drywood dummy? Which is preferable if cost really was not an option - Teak? Marble Wood? Drywood?

2 dry woods , got warned not to get marble , wood is to ''green'' and have not seen the teak

but i have talked with guys that have got some good dry woods as well , mine looked perfect when i got them but once i started useing it for a while cracks came out right away .

good luck ;)

Chuanfa@sbcglob
02-20-2007, 11:20 AM
Thanks Ernie. Looks like Cranes Prod is where I'll be purchasing my dummy.

lonewolf
03-09-2007, 11:42 PM
go to google and search under wooded dummy plans. you can get the plans and make your own for under 100 bucks.

sanjuro_ronin
04-17-2008, 05:09 AM
I know we have had a few threads about this but, if YOU could design your very own Wooden dummy, what would it look like and what would it do?

k gledhill
04-17-2008, 05:48 AM
Form/design follows function....

adjustable height so it can easily be changed to allow the practitioner to keep their elbows low when training the techniques. Many do SLT etc...only to face a high dummy and reach up creating levers with the arms rather than elbow position maintenance in rotation while moving around ...

There are 2 imaginary dummys either side of the main body , we point the tan / low bong combo aka kwan at these imaginary 'body's as if we are attacking in a converging line to enter into them , instead we step or turn back into facing the 1 body , tending to mislead some to think we would turn ourselves from their positions and do things then while they wait we re-face and do a move ....:D

I would have 2 1/2 dummys either side for the idea to work , not turning into, but keep going after the side dummy's for variation in training with it . like attacking a person continuously in one parallel/converging line along a wall...as chum kil . It would make the chi-sao not seem like we did this on an opponent , turn away then reface , re-directing energy by sticking t arms etc...

heavy /dense plastic built into the dummy so it was 'flush' with the wood , in a seamless plastic/wood surface to allow bare handed strikes anywhere I decided without putting on fingerless gloves like ufc type . wood for density to develop ging shock force and plastic/dense foam for striking with knuckles.

arm attachments to simulate blades for training cuts, stabs, etc..., using the dense plastic/foam for stabbing choppping...and not splintering the arms while doing so .... holes for making the dummy a pole training dummy by swapping out short arms for certain areas to parry and thrust, rather than another one 'just for that'

As technology moves forwards perhaps it could be a free standing programed attack robot that er.... ok losing it :D

sanjuro_ronin
04-17-2008, 05:56 AM
As technology moves forwards perhaps it could be a free standing programed attack robot that er.... ok losing it

I too am waiting for "holodeck" training :)

Till then...

sanjuro_ronin
04-17-2008, 05:59 AM
adjustable height so it can easily be changed to allow the practitioner to keep their elbows low when training the techniques. Many do SLT etc...only to face a high dummy and reach up creating levers with the arms rather than elbow position maintenance in rotation while moving around ...

Wouldn't a "taller" dummy allow us to drill VS a "taller opponent" ?

Toby
04-17-2008, 06:50 AM
I've got a wooden one but I'm not happy with it any more. I built it with measurements off my favourite dummy at the time, but we got some new dummies and I prefer a higher one these days. We also got some arms on springs on one dummy and I really like that.

Now I want to replace the wooden one with a steel one. I've got some ideas and materials together. I want to have removable steel spring arms and leg and the body mounted on rollers with old moped shock absorbers and bearings on tracks controlling the horizontal movement. I want to have dense foam covers on the arms and maybe the leg so I can hit them hard enough (I find bare steel too harsh). Also padding on the body and head because some of the strikes in my dummy form hurt without padding. The springs I've got in mind are very stiff. It was hard to find springs burly enough but I went to an industrial spring supplier and the heaviest ones they've got should do. They seem to work well in prototype arms I rig up. I don't think the project will be easy, but if I can create the dummy I've got in my mind I'll be pretty happy.

sanjuro_ronin
04-17-2008, 07:10 AM
I've got a wooden one but I'm not happy with it any more. I built it with measurements off my favourite dummy at the time, but we got some new dummies and I prefer a higher one these days. We also got some arms on springs on one dummy and I really like that.

Now I want to replace the wooden one with a steel one. I've got some ideas and materials together. I want to have removable steel spring arms and leg and the body mounted on rollers with old moped shock absorbers and bearings on tracks controlling the horizontal movement. I want to have dense foam covers on the arms and maybe the leg so I can hit them hard enough (I find bare steel too harsh). Also padding on the body and head because some of the strikes in my dummy form hurt without padding. The springs I've got in mind are very stiff. It was hard to find springs burly enough but I went to an industrial spring supplier and the heaviest ones they've got should do. They seem to work well in prototype arms I rig up. I don't think the project will be easy, but if I can create the dummy I've got in my mind I'll be pretty happy.

Springs like this?

CFT
04-17-2008, 07:50 AM
Wouldn't a "taller" dummy allow us to drill VS a "taller opponent" ?I think Kevin means a non-personalised dummy so that anyone can approach it, adjust for height and then train with the dummy.

sanjuro_ronin
04-17-2008, 08:21 AM
Question:

Spring loaded arms - good or bad?
Spring loaded base VS rotating base?

sihing
04-17-2008, 08:31 AM
Question:

Spring loaded arms - good or bad?
Spring loaded base VS rotating base?

I think the spring loaded arms would make you chase hands alot. If you don't chase hands allot you would always be going thru them to the center of the dummy, so you might as well not have the arms there if that was the case. Sifu Lam has a pair of these sticking out of one of his trees in his backyard, the seemed pretty useless to me.

A spring loaded base would be the way to go, it would force pressure back onto your structure, thereby making it stronger and more able to handle it. There's a company out there that makes spring loaded dummies, where the springs are behind the dummy, support by a solid base. No mounting required.

James

sanjuro_ronin
04-17-2008, 08:38 AM
I think the spring loaded arms would make you chase hands alot. If you don't chase hands allot you would always be going thru them to the center of the dummy, so you might as well not have the arms there if that was the case. Sifu Lam has a pair of these sticking out of one of his trees in his backyard, the seemed pretty useless to me.

A spring loaded base would be the way to go, it would force pressure back onto your structure, thereby making it stronger and more able to handle it. There's a company out there that makes spring loaded dummies, where the springs are behind the dummy, support by a solid base. No mounting required.

James

Link please?

k gledhill
04-17-2008, 08:42 AM
the height is for personal development ...if you fight a guy taller than you then your not offering levers you may use bilgee more rather than climb the bridge ...if you know the levels of elbows then you can do what you like ..if you simply train higher always for everyone ...then you ruin yourself. SLT would be elbows high up for fighting tall people only .
The arms are solid to develop SHOCK force sudden impact that removes but does not chase ...O---->OOO>---O executive desk play toy idea, energy transfers to another object, while remaining still after impact [ from elbow control not wrist hand chasing]...
we hold our defensive centerline doing this while clearing our way to strike in...from pole , ballisitic removal while staying to stab the pole inline with were the previous position was held by the other pole ..if it wasn't there to remove ..your stabbing in anyway.

dummy should be personal, not one size fits all ....taall guys should be the opposite and striving to lower themselves for the idea too. stance low elbows low...loooow.:D once you know the idea you are no longer a slave to it and just get on with the fun of mortal combat :D

sanjuro_ronin
04-17-2008, 09:01 AM
the height is for personal development ...if you fight a guy taller than you then your not offering levers you may use bilgee more rather than climb the bridge ...if you know the levels of elbows then you can do what you like ..if you simply train higher always for everyone ...then you ruin yourself. SLT would be elbows high up for fighting tall people only .
The arms are solid to develop SHOCK force sudden impact that removes but does not chase ...O---->OOO>---O executive desk play toy idea, energy transfers to another object, while remaining still after impact [ from elbow control not wrist hand chasing]...
we hold our defensive centerline doing this while clearing our way to strike in...from pole , ballisitic removal while staying to stab the pole inline with were the previous position was held by the other pole ..if it wasn't there to remove ..your stabbing in anyway.

dummy should be personal, not one size fits all ....taall guys should be the opposite and striving to lower themselves for the idea too. stance low elbows low...loooow.:D once you know the idea you are no longer a slave to it and just get on with the fun of mortal combat :D

Thank you.

Grilo
04-17-2008, 04:30 PM
I think if I was to build my own dummy there are several things I would add or take away from the original design.

I would want it height adjustable so that I could train against shorter, my own, or taller individuals. I would design a leg that could randomly kick out. PVC body that has the ability to take on water through a tube in the bottom adding weight. The body would be able to move around by a track on the top and able to rotate. Having the arms able to shoot out like punches would be handy. Portable would be handy so that it could be taken outside for nice days.

I think that is all that I would need. Maybe some speakers in the top to play music while I train.

Patrick.

Toby
04-17-2008, 04:32 PM
Springs like this?Essentially yes, although with the springs as close to the body as possible.


Question:

Spring loaded arms - good or bad?
Spring loaded base VS rotating base?I personally like the spring loaded arms. I don't think they make you chase hands. Even the ones at my school, which are looser than I think I'd prefer, are fun to use. The ones I've found are significantly stiffer. You can still do the forms, but I definitely prefer free-form dummy work with the sprung arms. Takes a minute or two to get used to it.

As I mentioned I want the body sprung as well. I thought about putting the whole dummy on a car spring as I've seen pictures of before. In the end I decided to go with the idea I've got. Probably 4 tracks with inner and outer RHS steel and very heavy duty bearings so the dummy runs in and out on tracks. 2 of the tracks with moped coilover shocks to control how it runs. If you hit the dummy body straight on it'll obviously have optimal performance. If you hit it side on, it won't move at all, but I never hit my current one side on (because it's mounted on rails, which precludes that). If you hit it at 45°, hopefully it'll still move.

sanjuro_ronin
04-18-2008, 04:54 AM
I think if I was to build my own dummy there are several things I would add or take away from the original design.

I would want it height adjustable so that I could train against shorter, my own, or taller individuals. I would design a leg that could randomly kick out. PVC body that has the ability to take on water through a tube in the bottom adding weight. The body would be able to move around by a track on the top and able to rotate. Having the arms able to shoot out like punches would be handy. Portable would be handy so that it could be taken outside for nice days.

I think that is all that I would need. Maybe some speakers in the top to play music while I train.

Patrick.

Maybe all wheel drive too ?
;)

couch
04-18-2008, 06:21 AM
Link please?

http://www.woodendummy.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=22_134&products_id=60

sanjuro_ronin
04-18-2008, 06:52 AM
http://www.woodendummy.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=22_134&products_id=60

Ah, thank you.

bennyvt
11-10-2008, 03:45 AM
Hi
I was just wondering, my our dummy (I mean Wong Shun Leung) we do the po pai section both sides. As one is high and one is low both sides are practiced. I heard that this is not done by all yip man schools. How many other schools do this? I was also wondering, there are other techniques that are only practiced on one side, ie in the low palm-tan sao-bond sao then the reface and Kick section (the one after the po pai section. The first low palm is with a pivot and the other side it is done with a step. In the kwan sao kick section it is the same, low bong with a pivot and the other side is with a step.
I do it as seperate techniques, ie pivot and palm-tan and bong then pivot to other side and do the same, I do 30 of them then do 30 with the step ( I keep on going instead of doing the garn and tan I go straight the the low palm).
I also practice it backwards. I do each technique or sequence, ie palm-tan-bong or pivot-low bong- to kwan and kick in a continuos loop.then I do the bit that I just learnt 30 times, then do the bit before that with the other bit included 30 times. so you start at the last bit and work your way back. So you end up doing the bit that you just learnt 30 more then the last but heaps more then the first section. So you end with doing the whole sequence of the form 30 times. I feel that way you always practice the last thing you learnt more, but still are doing it as a whole. As when I broke it down to seperate moves at a time I really lost my flow.
This seems a weird way of doing it but I found it works good for me. Has anyone found this, you do you just do it from start to finish or just break it down to sections/ techniques.

Vajramusti
11-10-2008, 07:50 AM
I was just wondering, my our dummy (I mean Wong Shun Leung) we do the po pai section both sides. As one is high and one is low both sides are practiced.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not in the WSL line. When I do work that section of the dummy- I do both sides. For balance-each side is level- the difference is only-the right hand is on top on one side and the left hand on the other. Part of the balancing. That's for devrlopment-the sense of balance. In application you adjust to specific situations.

Joy Chaudhuri

anerlich
11-10-2008, 01:47 PM
Two po pais in the dummy sequence I was taught.

I agree it's good to mix up the sequence, do it backwards, replace movements with others, etc.

IMO this and the other forms are frameworks on which to expand, not constraints.

At an advanced level in TWC (at my school at least) you are expected to develop some dummy sets of your own.

Liddel
11-10-2008, 10:01 PM
Yeah, i have it on both sides aswell, actually i have everything on both sides....

My dummy form is quite different in terms of order than most other forms ive seen out there but still contains the same actions....other than schools that have actions only on one side like you mentioned benny.

I like Andrews mentality, i also mix it up a bit and was taught to practice in the air as well as on the dummy.... varieties the spice of life :p

I took different sections and joined them and applied them in free chi sao... i.e when doing kicks ect coming back quickly to center with Guarns etc...

Habbits like that in the form are there for a reason IMO but you can play trial and error to see what fits your habbits/skill level.

DREW

bennyvt
11-11-2008, 03:30 AM
yeh i do the air dummy too. I work at night and only have a dummy at one place i work and at my mums. So i do the dummy at mums monday air dummy tues wed thurs then proper dummy fri sat. Do you extend with the air dummy more. Or in the pak sao then jut sao and punch do you punch over the jut like you would use it. I was taught that some moves are different when actually used, like the jut and punch on top instead of bottom. And i mean with the sections i do like section 7 then 6'7 then 5'6'7 until its the whole form so you do more me the bit you just learnt.

Liddel
11-11-2008, 03:23 PM
I was taught that some moves are different when actually used, like the jut and punch on top instead of bottom.

Personally, my action when used is over the top. My VT relies on pressing an action down with the Jut to make room in the center for my punch to land and occupy the space.

The only difference with the dummy is that my pressure will never be enough to lower the dummy arm :p hence the punch is under or rather lower but between the Jongs arms.



And i mean with the sections i do like section 7 then 6'7 then 5'6'7 until its the whole form so you do more me the bit you just learnt.

Yes. like Andrew pointed out at his school, we aso are taught to create our own groups of actions.
I had a sparring partner outside my training that used good jabs to lead into a cross and a kick so i worked the dummy with that combo in mind creating a type of counter combo if you will.
It helped with fluidity and movement when i took that back to sparring.

These are the types of things i like to work in with the jong otherwise IMO it can get rather boring :o

DREW

bennyvt
11-12-2008, 05:57 AM
about the po pai vaj mentioned that the top or bottom were for balance. I was taught different applications with the two different po pai. What do you guys use it for.

k gledhill
11-12-2008, 08:27 PM
part of an attack delivery...

bennyvt
11-13-2008, 02:51 AM
how do you guys do the po pai in application. To push, make space, As a strike etc. I think that the pushing people over things seems like it goes against vt rules, ie do push them away as this gives them a counter instead of smothering him. Also as i am small pushing someone bigger is not going to work most of the time. As there forward momentum makes it better to strike against his momentum as this makes more penetration. Just some thoughts.

Liddel
11-13-2008, 03:56 PM
how do you guys do the po pai in application. To push, make space, As a strike etc. I think that the pushing people over things seems like it goes against vt rules.

Personally i very rearly use it in sparring, although i could say thats because i use gloves in sparring so....

Generally in Free Sticking i will use it to gain space or just occupy my opponents concentration (because hes concentrating on two attacks at different heights effectively)


To push them away as this gives them a counter instead of smothering him. Also as i am small pushing someone bigger is not going to work most of the time. As there forward momentum makes it better to strike against his momentum as this makes more penetration

For me its not giving the opponent time to counter because of its own applied timing.

If i use upper guarn for a straight then press the guarn into upper and lower palms pressing to the center ive crossed the opponents body minimising his ability to react with the free side...but he can react... although from your po pai position you can easily change or interupt your own action as you control the center at that point so you should already be aware of whats coming IMO.. you have the advantage of timing there....

When you use it, it should be part of a combo movement. Like the bong it never stays to avoid being vunerable with larger opponents.

The best time to work Po Pai IMHO is Poon Sao. With the pulling and pushing in all directions going on there is plenty of opportunity to work the differnt timings of Po Pai's use....to give you ideas for higher levels like sparring.

DREW

bennyvt
11-15-2008, 08:09 PM
yeh I have found it hard to practice in chi sao. But have found it works well when Im doing training with my shootfighting friend and hes got me in a cliche and pressing on me trying to take me down(mainly cause i dont hit him in the head hard so the VT is hard to use). I guess since its more of a biu gee idea you would be in the right position much, except when doing the kwan sao to a pak sao trap that has moved your elbow to far across. But I havent been able to time it enough to do it from the bong sao.
With the first and second po pai being high then low, do you use it as one is for the right bong sao and one is for a wrong bong sao. Or bottom one when being pressed or any other use.
I know that the ideas and concepts are generally, pivoting or facing with the move, footwork, recovery etc. But as the last parts of the dummy are more used to teach you appropriate responses to certain mistakes therefore there are "applications" for the moves. IMO if my teacher gave me an answer of "part of an attack delivery" I would be like "yeh and" that really doesnt tell you anything. All of ving tsun is part of an attack delivery. This comes down to my post in the VT museum thing. Teaching a concept is fine once you know what you are doing, teaching from the start with " there are no moves in VT" is impossible and leads to people just spruting what their teacher has told them and have no real understanding as to what they are doing. (Im not saying that guy doesn't know what he is doing I am only using his response as an example.

k gledhill
11-16-2008, 11:13 PM
you can use it to maintain an attack if the guy covers up or you lose punching distances, you push with the feet /heels , keeping elbows fixed [ not rigid] drive the short force into the ground and keep the arms constant to channel the enrgy into them...even a big guy can be disrupted....has to be aflowing attack covers up po-pai back to strike attack ....not stop shove start again stop shove ...the key is to shove them into your range again or a kick, or a stairway, etc...secondary points...edge of a piece of furniture, corner of a wall/ bricks, smash the head into a wall, parked car roof ...momentum use it like anyone....this is the science of delivering a good attack , rather than rough parts...shove ,...oh yeah, attack to late , throw a kick back off, 2 punches back off,....123 combo back off......just some ideas to keep attacking going for 9 out tof 10 seconds , not easy :D

bennyvt
11-17-2008, 02:10 AM
cool, thanks thats some good ideas. Its something that do dont tend to read about alot. It seems like most of the po pai's are covering the next shot when you have stuffed up and left a gap, so instead of just blocking incase he doesnt throw it you use the po pai to attck while covering.

k gledhill
11-18-2008, 05:45 PM
yes..any action that can be an attacking action, with the flowing delivery, constant forward pressure , mentally/ physically aggressive...concept seen in ufc fights...attacking but how good...guys who are good ground fighters are taking that 'concept' further ...they keep going past the VT distances if they present themselves...Thai boxing can altr its techniques to allow the fighter to deliver a more sustained attack by using more knees and elbows and straight punches...no backing off...concept changes the techniques to make it work/function more efficiently less wasted actions more direct ....I found that WSL taught P Bayer this as an attacking idea rather than a chi-sao based system with 'moves ' thrown in ...more a complete attack system...everything aimed at helping each other achieve this goal...not sticky hand game each other .

edseas2
11-19-2008, 08:43 AM
Po Pai -

We do it on both sides of the Jong. As it is taught it CAN be a push or a double palm strike (which I prefer). As a strike it can be absolutely devastating if you think about striking the lower ribs and jaw simultaneously with good structural unity and elbow positioning - quite possible to knock a larger person 5 or 6 feet back, if desired...or simply a powerful push but then one has to close the gap again...unless, of course, they are being pushed in to an immoveable object...

Ed Seas

TenTigers
11-19-2008, 09:29 AM
IMO, po-pai jeung as practiced on the jong has a percussive jolt, or shock power, that goes internally (not to sound too Hippyish) rather than a shove, which would imply a longer force.
The spacing in my po-pai, or wu-dip jeung is closer, solar plexus and heart, which also allows the upper hand to strike foward after the initial palms with biu-jee, or clawing,crushing to the throat. The shock power doesn't send the opponent back, which allows for these follow up strikes. If you push your opponent, you then have to chase him, and re-engage. Why give up your advantage?
Also remember the kuen-kuit-"Kwun-sao, po-pai jeung." I add to this, "Gaun-sao, Po-Pai Jeung," as well.
when you think of it, pak-da, po-pai jeung...hmmm, it would seem that PPJ slides and fits into everythng.
Sometimes, just through discussion, we have epihanies.:cool:
This gives me something to play with for this afternoon's class!

edseas2
11-19-2008, 09:32 AM
Not if he is pushed through a plate glass window, into a car, into a parking meter, down a flight of stairs, into a wall...reread my post...Gary Lam always talks about using your environment...


Ed

TenTigers
11-19-2008, 09:48 AM
Sifu Frank Yee once said,"Cowards need to carry weapons. You have all your weapons everywhere you go. Fire hydrant, corner of a building, car.."
(I thought that was cool. Still use that line in my classes to this day)

bennyvt
12-18-2008, 04:58 AM
me again. I was wondering about the 6th section. Been reading about how others do it mainly the kick tan palm bit. My question is where do you face when kicking. Have seen many different ideas. Facing the dummy, facing the leg. I get that it could be just kick or any combo of the moves also do you do a stomp kick, the normal upward kick (what i got taught) etc. Or any comments about the first bit with the downward palm to tan sao. Thanks in advance

couch
12-18-2008, 07:06 AM
6th section for me is where I start with Double Gan Sau three times and it contains the lean and rear leg kick.

I know it may be tedious, but give us - say - the first few moves of that section so I have something to compare my form to...

bennyvt
12-18-2008, 07:48 AM
sorry should be more specific. The bit where you in down yard palm to tan sao to bong them step turn and kick tan and palm. The one after the po pai section.

bennyvt
12-18-2008, 07:50 AM
that should be downward palm. I dont mean the palm used down my yard. Bloody preemptive text.

David Peterson
12-19-2008, 01:25 AM
Hi Benny,

Here's my two cents worth... :)

As I was taught it, the sequence consists of Soh Sau with a pivot, followed by Taan Sau as you square-up with the Jong, then Bong Sau with a pivot. You then disengage with the Jong, stepping to the side of the structure such that you are at 90 degrees to the Jong with the closest (left) hand in Che Jeung (low palm) and the other hand in Taan Sau, whilst simultaneously kicking to the knee of the Jong with the right foot. Wong Sifu was emphatic that the kick go as directly to the knee as possible, rather than a "one-two" stomping action, and that the knee must be turned outward, as is the foot, so that there was little chance of the leg buckling at the knee if the opponent's leg drove through the kick or it was mis-timed. Hope this makes sense to you :)
DMP

k gledhill
12-19-2008, 07:12 AM
wsl thinking...left arm + turning soh sao/gum sao= low deflection to a left arm elbow exercise recovery position to train pre-strike positions [tan] facing chu-ying training [ not a move] then, left bong to deflect with facing moving target...the bong again becomes a strike elbow in training ...the arm alone is deflect>recover to strike, deflect>recover to strike etc....the kick as DP says is a straight line regardless of distance , you will hit what is on the line first ..knee, thigh, groin, head [ if you hit him already ; )] , no 1lift 2kick,... like a broom stick laying down with the end touching the dummy and the other end on the floor , your foot travels the same line , the force you generate doesnt push you back wards . both feet drive away from each other to utilize the force of each , not just support and kick...you dont lift up in the air when kicking but drive force sharply into the gound and into the target together...2 legs are better than one.
Facing the the attack or iow turning to the dummy [ done a lot because it dont move] is only because IT doesnt move :D but we have to to use it again or we go into thin air next to it....it is the imaginary space next to the dummy that we would really follow into..but look silly attacking air ;) ...in reality the bong to tan kick is by maintaining a facing attack line of an opponent moving away from your constant attack ...the step out and turning reface is considered a 'move' by many....try imagine chasing down a guy along a cage or a wall , rather than the wait for the guy to attack you then do a step and turn and zzzz:rolleyes:
the attack is trained in chum kil by stepping sideways at 45* as if we are attacking one side as it moves from us [ not a move] , facing as if we have to go into it attacking a flank , but in attacking not face to face just when the flank is decided for that moment, shifting to face either side with equal ability same thinking a target doesn't want to get hit and unlike ourselves , moves across the centerline laterally to defend against straight lines . Then ambidextrous training for obvious necessity to be able to point and shoot a target either side fluidly...

If you understand the whole idea 'prior' to the dummy, the sum of the parts are simply reinforcing a common ' whole' idea...from the slt up....same thinking.
attacking as your response to a fight...you need to be able to maintain a constant attack ...the dummy being fixed forces us to turn and face as we step, in reality the turn step wont be done, training for facing , to 'go back' to drilling...in a fight you would chase the guy down constantly...deflect/strike one arm while the other is strike /deflect
together in sequence rotating , you have the basic rotation patterns of each arm striking or opening up the front line for the following strike ..etc... kick on the line your attacking without lifting to stop your momentum of entry and then kicking ...to slow...strike on a line , kick on the same line ...blitz.. just not like the dummy ; )

dummy is very confusing without knowing its just drilling the elbows positions to be unthinking correct lines of angles ...

the turning to face and enter the sides of the dummy are so we know each arm with correct elbow positions can reach the target...we dont actually do attacks with an tan and a side-plam together ...we 'can';) reality is your doing a tan [outside of forearm] and a jum [inside of forearm] 'position check' , relative to your drilling dummy...if you really had a fight , you would keep going in the direction of the guy your trying to hit...he's moving down a bar room wall , trying to get away from you as you land blows..he covers up you do a po -pai to shove him away with your momentum, then kick him , you don't think when you fight, so the kick will just be a way to hurt him directly asap after losing a strike with the hands, without doing a round kick that will spin you on the spot, like a missed thai kick... he refaces you to throw a punch you can allow th punch to move across your line and take the given flanked /turned /body ....or ? that's up to you.... you might strike with a tan-side forearm strike because its the right strike for the right moment, or a jum striking arm because your angles to the attack made it the best shot ..then the following strike [tan] is done as if you are cycling through the dummy..only not turning , refacing to check , drilling other side, turning etc....

the opponent will show YOU what to do , what side, you don't think sequence #6 step turn face etc...you just go BANG BANG kick push bang kick head butt ;) throw chair etc...duck a thrown beer bottle , throw one back etc... ah memories :D

the clarity of of the system lies in its simplicity to give you the ability to deliver a sustained attack regardless of incoming or going ...we train to face lines of force naturally, like any fighter does in a ring..they dont work to set pieces or sequential memory of applications...just move relative to the movement before them and respond accordingly with the best shot , using their strongest weapon... the free mind to express itself with no constraints of ' this move', then turn etc...
We have concepts guiding the techniques that allow us to deliver it....without thinking.

bennyvt
12-21-2008, 03:59 AM
Thanks heaps for your posts. Lots of info to digest.
I got the main ideas of if push someone away the same hand will have to attack/block as it will always be closer and that the kick can be done as a combo or just tan or palm etc. Will be thinking about it more

k gledhill
12-21-2008, 09:50 AM
all the techniques allow an ability to attack a flank..example is right tan , left jum , left bong/vu-strike , all feed the ability to attack the guys right side...in any sequence...change sides and the right tan is the now the right jum....

tan is a training position for a double action strike, as is jum sao ...
tan uses the outside leading edge with elbows low and in to ensure the correct deflection angles along the arm as it leaves this position to STRIKE and recovers back to elbows in to repeat endlessly.... If done correctly no 'force' can stop it except an equal counter line :D or a grab [ergo bil gee release moves].
Jum [side-palm makes the elbow turn inwards] uses the inside of the forearm , by keeping the elbows in and low , so the strike deflects force inwards , relative to our elbow/flank position....
All the techniques work to fight a flanked weakened side...

bongs move force left or right to clear for either arm capable of being a tan or jum in a nano second of response naturally to the line of force presented...thats why all the chi-sao for one...

each arm is tan/jum depending on the side you fight , and never leaves the centerline , because they are striking deflections. The brain signals the appropriate corrections to make the jum [inside] strike, reface and become a tan[ outside] strike.

It looks like a chain punch when used , not tan , jum, tan , jum etc... the elbow control trained from SLT up, is this thinking . To deliver a simple strike with either arm, so it works like 2...

example is instead of using a right hand pak sao to trap an arm and then strike over with a left strike lifting the elbow up and over to reach...
We use either arms forearms to align to the target , not the attackers arm...keeping the alignment we develop an invisible line of engagement IF its X'ed by another line of force....if the arm meets the other in a rotation strike attack, either arm will be able to act as the controlling AND striking arm in one beat. UNTHINKING without arm chasing lead actions , taking your ability to overwhelm , back to being equal arm for arm responses or worse 2 for one ...constantly , from trap to over trapping etc....
IF that is interrupted and the lead arm is stopped it becomes a jut, etc..to feed the rear hand ...chi-sao instills the appropriate response , unthinking .

The common idea being arm alignment drills to develop the twofold strike/deflect actions in both the tan strike and jum strikes...

on the dummy we train both extended to simply ensure the ability to strike with either and have correct alignment , not application I block your arm with one arm and then do a low rib strike with my other , over :D...next move:rolleyes:
schools that do this thinking usually fall aprt when sparring and do a pak sao kick boxing , bong in air elbows up trying to do reaching 'tags' to say "I got you".... reality is the 'tag' wouldn't drop or stop a fly ...a lot rely on the lop-chop [ chop having the elbow WAY up ] , because they dont know how to control or attack without grabbing themselves...grabbing is frowned on as the main response , when a jut allows attacking on the line ...
the tan , low gaun , tan, huen sao , jum sao ...are strike, deflect, strike , deflect , strike.
practice lateral attacking to, facing [chu-ying] with both strikes , again not to turn an 'attack the dummy';) but imaging keeping going beyond the dummy using either strike
in rotation coupled with the attack line clearing, using man sao actions for the rear attack hand vu-sao


vu-sao is your best friend :D always free to attack..it is part of the thinking to not tie your own arms up and be unable to have a free vu-sao... no free vu-sao , bad .... another thing we do in chi-sao is pressure test to make a mistake of this ....not to fight each other like your opponent is going to do vusao ...

straightblast46
03-08-2011, 06:06 PM
Hello im after a Wooden Dummy. I know there are two types. The Dummy with Parallel arms, and arms that are off set. I remember David Peterson (WSL Lineage) saying the arms should always be parallel. However I find it very difficult to find a dummy on the net anywhere with exact parallel arms. I have heard Koo Sang and Buick Yip Dummies are the best but even they have slightly offset arms? There is other dummies with offset arms but more offset than the ones made by Koo Sang or Buick Yip. If anyone can explain to me what the difference is and where to get a good one from. I would really appreciate it. Im also after a Dummy that can be mounted but removable.

Any knowledge and recommendations will help.

Thanks for your time

Regards

Phil Redmond
03-08-2011, 06:25 PM
Hello im after a Wooden Dummy. I know there are two types. The Dummy with Parallel arms, and arms that are off set. I remember David Peterson (WSL Lineage) saying the arms should always be parallel. However I find it very difficult to find a dummy on the net anywhere with exact parallel arms. I have heard Koo Sang and Buick Yip Dummies are the best but even they have slightly offset arms? There is other dummies with offset arms but more offset than the ones made by Koo Sang or Buick Yip. If anyone can explain to me what the difference is and where to get a good one from. I would really appreciate it. Im also after a Dummy that can be mounted but removable.

Any knowledge and recommendations will help.

Thanks for your time

Regards
The tangs (I just found out that they are called tenons), in the top two arms are offset. The way the arms are inserted into the trunk determine if they are level or offset
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOpn9iIYpjI

LoneTiger108
03-09-2011, 09:30 AM
Hello im after a Wooden Dummy. I know there are two types. The Dummy with Parallel arms, and arms that are off set. I remember David Peterson (WSL Lineage) saying the arms should always be parallel.

If you don't mind me asking, what did your own Sifu say about the top arms alignment?

Almost A Ghost
03-10-2011, 10:17 AM
The tangs (I just found out that they are called tenons), in the top two arms are offset. The way the arms are inserted into the trunk determine if they are level or offset
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOpn9iIYpjI

Yes and No. It depends who's making/selling the dummy.

Some manufacturers only sell dummies with offset arms where there are no differences between the arms used for the top or bottom, all arms have the body insert directly centered on the arm. Some of those manufacturers offer level arms as option when ordering such as www.immortalusa.com

OP,
I bought a level-armed dummy from www.woodendummy.net and I'm very happy with it.

Phil Redmond
03-15-2011, 11:30 AM
Yes and No. It depends who's making/selling the dummy.

Some manufacturers only sell dummies with offset arms where there are no differences between the arms used for the top or bottom, all arms have the body insert directly centered on the arm. Some of those manufacturers offer level arms as option when ordering such as www.immortalusa.com

OP,
I bought a level-armed dummy from www.woodendummy.net and I'm very happy with it.
If it's a Yip Man lineage wooden dummy then the tenons ARE offset.
Yip Man gave the first plans for a Wooden Dummy to be made in Hong Kong to Cheung King Kong (Wm. Cheung's older brother), and Wm. Cheung.
http://web.archive.org/web/200607170...oodendummy.htm
They then gave the plans to Koo Sang who made the fist HK WC wooden dummies
That design had offset tenons. If people are making arms without offsetting the tenons then they're not making YM dummies.

Almost A Ghost
03-15-2011, 01:10 PM
Phil,
You're link got cropped.

Phil Redmond
03-15-2011, 01:35 PM
Phil,
You're link got cropped.

Oops, here it is: http://web.archive.org/web/20070702134204/www.springtimesong.com/wcforms4woodendummy.htm
I've known about this from other WC Sifus before I saw this Canadian website. I referred to the link because it's from a source outside of TWC circles.

TenTigers
03-15-2011, 04:01 PM
I think the problem is that people don't get that the arms are supposed to have offset tenons so that they are level when placed properly in the jong. This is the way the jong was designed.
If you have upper arms that do not have offset tenons, it is probably more likely that the manufacturer doesn't know any better and sells middle arms, rather than offering two different styles of arms.

chusauli
03-15-2011, 04:37 PM
By correctly placing the alleged "offset tenons" properly, you can have a Jong with level arms!

k gledhill
03-15-2011, 05:30 PM
I think the problem is that people don't get that the arms are supposed to have offset tenons so that they are level when placed properly in the jong. This is the way the jong was designed.
If you have upper arms that do not have offset tenons, it is probably more likely that the manufacturer doesn't know any better and sells middle arms, rather than offering two different styles of arms.

give this man a tenon er, I mean a cigar, cohiba ! :D

k gledhill
03-15-2011, 05:34 PM
By correctly placing the alleged "offset tenons" properly, you can have a Jong with level arms!

alleged ? :D

Phil Redmond
03-15-2011, 05:58 PM
alleged ? :D

I'm also wondering why he wrote "alleged"

CFT
03-16-2011, 03:13 AM
Some manufacturers only sell dummies with offset arms where there are no differences between the arms used for the top or bottom, all arms have the body insert directly centered on the arm. Some of those manufacturers offer level arms as option when ordering such as www.immortalusa.com


alleged ? :D


I'm also wondering why he wrote "alleged"Alleged (offset tenons) because of the bolded text in Almost A Ghost's post.

chusauli
03-16-2011, 06:05 AM
Experiment by turning the tenons, and you, too, will have a jong like my Koo Sang one with parallel arms.

Amazing feat of engineering?! No!

Just a minor adjustment! I'll take pics sometime.

trubblman
03-16-2011, 06:43 AM
The arms should always be parallel. However I find it very difficult to find a dummy on the net anywhere with exact parallel arms.

The arms only have to be "parallel" only if everyone of the opponents you anticipate encountering has shoulders of same height. If you do a cursory research you will see Yip man's don't all use "parallel" arm dummies. The dummy is only an abstraction of a human and not even an ideal abstraction.
I am assuming that when you say "parallel" you mean equal-height arms. It's been sometime since I have done geometry but my understanding of parallel is of 2 lines equidistant at any 2 points along the length.

CFT
03-16-2011, 07:12 AM
Sifu Phil's video explains it all. Nothing more is needed.

Hard to believe he is a Vietnam vet. He only looks like he is in his 40s!

LoneTiger108
03-16-2011, 08:36 AM
The arms only have to be "parallel" only if everyone of the opponents you anticipate encountering has shoulders of same height. If you do a cursory research you will see Yip man's don't all use "parallel" arm dummies.

A valid point, and I have to agree. The majority of guys I know that have learnt the wooden man all have the right arm higher than the left as this is how it was when they learnt the form back in the eighties.

I know that the even arms can now be 'acheived' because of the developments in arm design, but if the only reason is so that we practice evenly on both sides (as mentioned somewhere in the thread) then I don't feel that's a good enough reason.

Were all the previous Wing Chun ancestors wrong just because they didn't possess the engineering skills?? :confused:

chusauli
03-16-2011, 10:38 AM
Sifu Phil's video explains it all. Nothing more is needed.

Hard to believe he is a Vietnam vet. He only looks like he is in his 40s!

Don't let his looks fool ya - he is real old... LOL!

He's a senior citizen and eligible for AARP!

sanjuro_ronin
03-16-2011, 10:41 AM
Sifu Phil's video explains it all. Nothing more is needed.

Hard to believe he is a Vietnam vet. He only looks like he is in his 40s!

Older than the hills on granny's chest and twice as dusty !
:D

Grumblegeezer
03-16-2011, 03:43 PM
A valid point, and I have to agree. The majority of guys I know that have learnt the wooden man all have the right arm higher than the left as this is how it was when they learnt the form back in the eighties....

Were all the previous Wing Chun ancestors wrong just because they didn't possess the engineering skills?? :confused:

Spencer, you have a valid point. The really early dummies weren't even "sprung"... they were the "dead dummies" set in the ground. Similarly, the arms with off-set tenons for level mounting came along later... so clearly you don't need them to train the dummy set. But, like the "sprung" frame, they are helpful. My objection is your reference to the "eighties". Sheesh! I'm a child compared with Joy, yet I began training in the seventies, and the dummies I saw had level arms. My own Koo Sang teak dummy was made in the early eighties and it has level arms too, so they have been around for a while.

couch
03-16-2011, 04:28 PM
The next time I get my a$$ed kicked - I'm going to blame it on the fact that my dummy arms are all screwed up and that it has nothing to do with me applying my skills in real-time.

Vajramusti
03-16-2011, 05:05 PM
Spencer, you have a valid point. The really early dummies weren't even "sprung"... they were the "dead dummies" set in the ground. Similarly, the arms with off-set tenons for level mounting came along later... so clearly you don't need them to train the dummy set. But, like the "sprung" frame, they are helpful. My objection is your reference to the "eighties". Sheesh! I'm a child compared with Joy, yet I began training in the seventies, and the dummies I saw had level arms. My own Koo Sang teak dummy was made in the early eighties and it has level arms too, so they have been around for a while.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lone Tiger- I began wc in 76. My koo sang dummy's arms are level. Ditto for my other two jong's. My sifu's main dummy which he brought over in 68- the arms are level. My sigung began with IM in the 50's his dummy's arms are level.


One can adjust to non level dummy but a level set of dummy hands will help with square body equal
balance on both sides.. an important principle. imo.


BTW- the old so called dead dummies had some give-because at their bottom there were rocks
which gave a little.


Phil R sure is a young chap.

Wing chun siempre adelante .

joy chaudhuri

Sihing73
03-16-2011, 06:25 PM
Phil,

I was wondering when you would put up a video of you doing the dummy while using a walker or one of those four pronged canes? Lord knows you're old enough and having met you in person I am sure you could use one :D

Just don't use the dummy you stole, er I mean bought ;), from me in your demo.

Phil Redmond
03-17-2011, 02:43 PM
Phil,

I was wondering when you would put up a video of you doing the dummy while using a walker or one of those four pronged canes? Lord knows you're old enough and having met you in person I am sure you could use one :D

Just don't use the dummy you stole, er I mean bought ;), from me in your demo.
Er, what did you say Sonny? I can't hear you . . . . lol

LoneTiger108
03-21-2011, 05:50 AM
Advice on how to train our 1st Form, 4th Set, 1 Method.
http://www.flystudio.co.uk/media/film/film.html

... I think some will find it interesting as its kinda linked to the wooden man thread and it gives one example of why ours has 'un-even' arms.

chusauli
03-21-2011, 11:12 AM
As I commented in a previous post, you can (almost) level your arms by simply turning the tenons.

I took some pics at my gwoon this weekend, and if you experiment, you can level your Jong arms.

Paul, if you want to attach a scantily clad woman pic to this, be my guest.

LoneTiger108
03-21-2011, 12:36 PM
As I commented in a previous post, you can (almost) level your arms by simply turning the tenons.

IF you have been supplied with two arms like that. :D My Koo Sang design only got delivered with one. In fact, My Sifus wooden man has a totally different type of arm tenons that were personally made.

As long as you're happy with your reasoning as I am with mine...

sanjuro_ronin
03-21-2011, 12:42 PM
Well...
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XFMYFzmSQTw/0.jpg

chusauli
03-22-2011, 09:06 AM
IF you have been supplied with two arms like that. :D My Koo Sang design only got delivered with one. In fact, My Sifus wooden man has a totally different type of arm tenons that were personally made.

As long as you're happy with your reasoning as I am with mine...


Koo Sang used to make the Jong arms as mine are... I remember in HK his way of making them.

I am surprised your Jong does not have arms like that. I guess this would spawn why the younger generation does things differently or perceives them differently.

BTW, Paul, very nice! I knew I could count on you!

LoneTiger108
03-22-2011, 09:26 AM
I am surprised your Jong does not have arms like that. I guess this would spawn why the younger generation does things differently or perceives them differently

I think you misunderstood Robert! I DO have one of the three arms like this (that is how it was supplied) the other two are square to the base of the arm.

My Sifu is of the older generation too and his arms, as I've said, are all square to the base. Can I ask, do you fit your palm 'into' the triangle created by the top two arms? Do you punch 'flush' into this triangle too? I personally wouldn't have thought so because an even set of arms doesn't allow the 'snug fit'.

I may have to put up a pic to demonstrate... but a regular pic. No hotpants! ;)

Wayfaring
03-22-2011, 09:32 AM
Sifu Phil's video explains it all. Nothing more is needed.

Hard to believe he is a Vietnam vet. He only looks like he is in his 40s!

Old Marines never die, they just keep rowing...

http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41292

chusauli
03-22-2011, 10:24 AM
I think you misunderstood Robert! I DO have one of the three arms like this (that is how it was supplied) the other two are square to the base of the arm.

My Sifu is of the older generation too and his arms, as I've said, are all square to the base. Can I ask, do you fit your palm 'into' the triangle created by the top two arms? Do you punch 'flush' into this triangle too? I personally wouldn't have thought so because an even set of arms doesn't allow the 'snug fit'.

I may have to put up a pic to demonstrate... but a regular pic. No hotpants! ;)



In my custom made YKS Jong I can put my palm into the triangle created by the top two arms, and can punch flush in it, too. As for the Yip Man Jong, the space between the arms is too tight for that.

Perhaps I misunderstand. Maybe you need to post a pic, however Spencer, the thought of you in hotpants is not a pleasant one.

Graham H
03-22-2011, 11:16 AM
In my custom made YKS Jong I can put my palm into the triangle created by the top two arms, and can punch flush in it, too. As for the Yip Man Jong, the space between the arms is too tight for that.

Perhaps I misunderstand. Maybe you need to post a pic, however Spencer, the thought of you in hotpants is not a pleasant one.

The space between the arms and also the angle is very important. This triangle is for a very specific reason when training the Dummy. If the arms are not level and at the correct height ,in relation to who is using it, then it becomes just another method of banging arms into for no apparent reason other than practicing applications. The dummy is for far more than that.........or at least it is within my system.

GH

LoneTiger108
03-23-2011, 03:30 AM
Perhaps I misunderstand. Maybe you need to post a pic, however Spencer, the thought of you in hotpants is not a pleasant one.

:D;) Again, a misunderstading!! I was talking of using a sexy young female model... :p

LoneTiger108
03-23-2011, 03:31 AM
The space between the arms and also the angle is very important. This triangle is for a very specific reason when training the Dummy.

Please share your thoughts and reasoning...

wingtsun85
03-25-2011, 11:19 AM
www.shaolinhouse.com

I got my dummy from them, and just by rotating the dummy arm by 180 degrees, you can choose to have offset or level arms.

To be quite honest, the only reason why they should be parallel, is for the left bong-sau. If the arms are offset, then when doing the left bong-sau you twist your arm and the bong-sau isn't in the proper form. If the arms are parellel, then your bong-sau's are in proper formation.

I know that some pictures show Yip Man himself using offset arms, however, later in his life he noticed the difference in the bong-sau and this was his idea to have them parallel.

Phil Redmond
03-26-2011, 03:34 AM
www.shaolinhouse.com

I got my dummy from them, and just by rotating the dummy arm by 180 degrees, you can choose to have offset or level arms.

To be quite honest, the only reason why they should be parallel, is for the left bong-sau. If the arms are offset, then when doing the left bong-sau you twist your arm and the bong-sau isn't in the proper form. If the arms are parellel, then your bong-sau's are in proper formation.

I know that some pictures show Yip Man himself using offset arms, however, later in his life he noticed the difference in the bong-sau and this was his idea to have them parallel.
In the Wing Chun forms regardless of lineage, the arm positions are the same on both sides to cover certain gates. It should be the same on the Jong. It's just common sense. But then again many people don't use common sense.

topwoodendummy
04-11-2011, 04:57 PM
We have both, I guess 90% people in the world will choose levelled arms not offset.
Traditional WC, should keep level arms.

topwoodendummy
04-11-2011, 05:03 PM
There are many styles of wing chun dummies in the world.
Which kind the best for you?

Vajramusti
04-11-2011, 05:18 PM
there are many styles of wing chun dummies in the world.
Which kind the best for you?

--------------------------------------------------------

spamming?

topwoodendummy
04-11-2011, 05:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------

spamming?

i don't need sell any dummies here. None of business with you.

Phil Redmond
04-11-2011, 06:28 PM
i don't need sell any dummies here. None of business with you.
Hey, that's Sifu Duncan Leung's logo on you site. I know that because I know who drew it. Duncan does have some great WC knives for sale. Is he involved with your dummies?

topwoodendummy
04-11-2011, 10:04 PM
We use China Oak to make wooden dummies and dragon poles. China Oak is a kind of Chinese hardwood also called za'mu, easy to find in China. We never use local expensive timbers or any imported rare timbers. I hope more and more companies could stop using expensive timbers to protect forests from damaging. Also someone said jointed wood is not better than solid wood, I don't think so, at least the chance rate of crack from jointed wood is smaller than from solid wood. Furthermore, We use jointed wood to make dummies avoid wasting raw materials, anyway, hope more people recognize that we live one same earth, we should cherish nature. Do your best! Stop buying teak wooden dummies and some rare materials.

lance
04-16-2011, 01:33 AM
Hello im after a Wooden Dummy. I know there are two types. The Dummy with Parallel arms, and arms that are off set. I remember David Peterson (WSL Lineage) saying the arms should always be parallel. However I find it very difficult to find a dummy on the net anywhere with exact parallel arms. I have heard Koo Sang and Buick Yip Dummies are the best but even they have slightly offset arms? There is other dummies with offset arms but more offset than the ones made by Koo Sang or Buick Yip. If anyone can explain to me what the difference is and where to get a good one from. I would really appreciate it. Im also after a Dummy that can be mounted but removable.

Any knowledge and recommendations will help.

Thanks for your time

Regards

Straightblast46 Hello , Okay everybody who replied to your topic thread wooden dummies , all had the same thing in common with you . Have you ever connect with Koo Sang and Buick Yip about it ? There must be a good reason why they are so different like you said ? it ' s just that you need to find out why ?

Wing Chun Dummies , the best thing you could do is connect with Sifu Peterson and find out why the dummy arms should be parrallel like you mentioned . and explain to him your problem , you can ' t find out what you really need from the 2 companies you mentiond then , maybe Sifu Petersons' WC dummy is custom made . and probably he ' ll send you information of the company that made his wooden dummy .

Take Care ,
Lance

martyg
04-17-2011, 03:54 PM
If the arms are not level and at the correct height ,in relation to who is using it, then it becomes just another method of banging arms into for no apparent reason other than practicing applications. The dummy is for far more than that.........or at least it is within my system.

GH

So in your system everyone they fight against is the same exact height and build as themselves? What's this crazy mirror image world called? Have to visit there sometime...

YouKnowWho
04-17-2011, 04:33 PM
when you fight, you always have one arm higher than the other. The higher arm protech your head, the lower arm protect your body. It makes no sense to train level arms IMO. I had a custom made wooden dummy. I assumed my dummy was a right hand person so I made his right arm higher than his left arm on purpose.

k gledhill
04-17-2011, 04:34 PM
So in your system everyone they fight against is the same exact height and build as themselves? What's this crazy mirror image world called? Have to visit there sometime...

The dummy isnt a 'person' , the height can be adjusted to suit the 'vt students' elbow height, but not to replicate a taller or shorter person for applicationitis.

If the opponent is taller we still have been developing strong low elbow, hip unity, so reaching wont be a detriment to us for the odd taller opponent. Compared to ALWAYS delivering over-extended relatively weaker 'levers', without the development a lower dummy would have furthered...follow ?

We use the dummy to maintain elbow development taught previously in SLT, Dan Chi-Sao, etc..., ging shock force symmetry, hip elbow unity , power points to focus strike alignment while facing and cycling attack defense as SLT teaches, along with shifting, body mass momentum in unison with the above for maxing out our force generation .

Tall fighters / opponents, crouch too....we have tall students too, we dont have height issues with them or adjust the dummy to 'pretend its them' .

As a possible reason for the dummy being raised :
Many VT students adopt high arms because they are too far away from each other and feel that the arms arent getting the fists out of their face doing bong sao for example.
So the student re-enforces their idea that their arms need to be held up to function as 'blocks'. Tan sao goes up, wu sao goes up etc...dummy goes up... Furthering the idea that the dummy now needs to be raised to replicate the idea...you end up with elbows that dont function in simultaneous strike defense because they are so high up they cant utilize forearms or the body unity offered by low strongly positioned fixed elbows.

k gledhill
04-17-2011, 04:39 PM
when you fight, your "major" arm is always higher that your "minor" arm. It makes no sense to train level arms IMO.

everything in the system is trained level... ?major , minor ?...in VT EACH arm is equal, thats the whole point of chi-sao, ambidextrous ability. Facing requires this. does an opponent have one shoulder higher than the other ? do you have to use a different dummy for 'lefty's' ?...stand behind it and swap the arms out ? :D

We use the dummy to further this development. The arms arent a person trying to strangle you. You dont jump sideways before going back at the guy from the flank as they stay rigid ...

I have a Koo Sang Dummy, occasionally from wear and tear an arm rotates in the dummy body creating a high low arm. The section squared and offset on the arms has no reference point so if you didnt know about level arms, you would assume its normal to have a high arm and a low arm.
If it wasnt so important why would Koo Sang make labor intensive offset arm tennons {?} sections so they would be level as the holes X'ed through the dummy. It would be easier to simply have two offset arm holes with symmetrical inserts. Instead he made the slots level and saw that two arms inserted needed to X over each other inside the dummy body. One arms tennon is low the other high outside the arms are even height...

martyg
04-17-2011, 04:55 PM
The dummy isnt a 'person' , the height can be adjusted to suit the 'vt students' elbow height, but not to replicate a taller or shorter person for applicationitis.


LOL, says you again Kevin. I've interacted with enough other sifu across the board to know that there are plenty who a) Actually view it as representing the different aspects of a person and b) Use various height dummies with the very explanation that the height shouldn't matter for precisely the reason of applying it against various heights of people. And some of these people have been ones with more years than you and I put together.


If the opponent is taller we still have been developing strong low elbow, hip unity, so reaching wont be a detriment to us for the odd taller opponent.

Reaching was never the issue, learning to adjust structure to various angles, heights, etc. of different size opponents is. The dummy in that situation allows us to work on those things when we don't have the luxury of a live person.


We use the dummy to maintain elbow development taught previously in SLT, Dan Chi-Sao, etc..., ging shock force symmetry, hip elbow unity , power points to focus strike alignment while facing and cycling attack defense as SLT teaches, along with shifting, body mass momentum in unison with the above for maxing out our force generation .

We as in you Kevin. We (as in me and my students) use it for it's mass, and what it provides as feedback for body unity in motion. The arms really become irrelevant after a while because it's all just imaginary alignment to a dead object.

Tall fighters / opponents, crouch too....we have tall students too, we dont have height issues with them or adjust the dummy to 'pretend its them' .


As a possible reason for the dummy being raised :
Many VT students adopt high arms because they are too far away from each other and feel that the arms arent getting the fists out of their face doing bong sao for example.

There's only too high what's currently occurring. I.E, the current interaction and kiu decides how your arms need to be aligned, not a static pre-posture.



So the student re-enforces their idea that their arms need to be held up to function as 'blocks'. Tan sao goes up, wu sao goes up etc...dummy goes up...

As it should if the opponent is taller, shorter, etc. etc. Unless your engine relies on a specific static position that always constitutes what a certain "technique" has to function around. Some engines do, which there's nothing wrong with - it's just again not an across the board deal.



Furthering the idea that the dummy now needs to be raised to replicate the idea...you end up with elbows that dont function in simultaneous strike defense because they are so high up they cant utilize forearms or the body unity offered by low strongly positioned fixed elbows.

Unless your idea of linkage has nothing to do with static elbow positions but rather a structure (from the toes to the tips of the fingers) that constantly changes with the incoming force vectors. I.E. the application decides structure, not a predefined posture that you jam in.

k gledhill
04-17-2011, 05:01 PM
LOL, says you again Kevin. I've interacted with enough other sifu across the board to know that there are plenty who a) Actually view it as representing the different aspects of a person and b) Use various height dummies with the very explanation that the height shouldn't matter for precisely the reason of applying it against various heights of people. And some of these people have been ones with more years than you and I put together.



Reaching was never the issue, learning to adjust structure to various angles, heights, etc. of different size opponents is. The dummy in that situation allows us to work on those things when we don't have the luxury of a live person.




We as in you Kevin. We (as in me and my students) use it for it's mass, and what it provides as feedback for body unity in motion. The arms really become irrelevant after a while because it's all just imaginary alignment to a dead object.

Tall fighters / opponents, crouch too....we have tall students too, we dont have height issues with them or adjust the dummy to 'pretend its them' .



There's only too high what's currently occurring. I.E, the current interaction and kiu decides how your arms need to be aligned, not a static pre-posture.




As it should if the opponent is taller, shorter, etc. etc. Unless your engine relies on a specific static position that always constitutes what a certain "technique" has to function around. Some engines do, which there's nothing wrong with - it's just again not an across the board deal.




Unless your idea of linkage has nothing to do with static elbow positions but rather a structure (from the toes to the tips of the fingers) that constantly changes with the incoming force vectors. I.E. the application decides structure, not a predefined posture that you jam in.

They may have more years Marty but its no guarantee they know what they are talking about....Anyway, not trying to convince your 'set in my ways ' mind....you play big guy, small guy, have fun. Whats that low arm meant to be then :D "a happy to see you" opponent ?

An important thing to remember is that there are 2 imaginary dummys either side we cant see but aim our centers at as we face and chase them. IOW we aim tan at an imaginary dummy as we cycle through high jum strike low gaun sao, to tan strike , bong on the lower arm..the tan is a strike to this alignment....iow we arent turning away from the main body with a Kwan Sao then turn back to reface after that....thats chi-sao game stuff. When we turn into reface the dummy with tan or jum its because theres no dummy to keep going after so we go back to the dummy core with arms for focus points to ging on.
tan energy goes forwards along the centerline at this target, while the low bong trains displacing 'ging force laterally across the centerline. This is the common vector unity in all attacking ...straight line-sweeping strikes, coupled with lateral force to 'clear' the line with short sharp, ging ballistic force....

tan's expanding elbows and jum's contracting elbows get a ging workout with striking alignment combined on the dumm, iow each arm becomes 2 hands using elbows/forearms as the second set .... forearms for jut get ging, pak...ging. with arms that are constantly cycling into new attacks with those attacks becoming defensive recycles...


The axis line of the dummy is fixed, rigid , it cant be turned. Our aim is to turn our opponents from facing us , using their axis line and overextended levers/wrists to achieve this ....if we train to use ballistic force on a rigid fixed object like the dummy the 'human' becomes easy by comparison to spin on the axis, move off balance with po-pai etc...strike with tan/jum etc...

If in training we meet rigidity in arms we try to make the students go soft so they cant be turned and lose jiu ying on us as we fight. If they do use rigid arms over extended at us our dummy training kicks in and we can still strike with alignment to displace their levers simultaneously as we turn , attack and dominate them...well thats what we try to do anyway. In a violent blast of close compact energy exchange, we control our energy with little or no thought to alignment timing distance, ging etc...


by your logic should we train the SLT, CK, etc..with arms held high up for taller guys and do it lower than usual for shorter guys like the different dummy heights ?

k gledhill
04-17-2011, 06:49 PM
Some blueprints of dummy design we use with 'upper arms' shown offset so they sit level ...

LoneTiger108
04-18-2011, 11:22 AM
There must be a good reason why they are so different like you said ? it ' s just that you need to find out why ?

I think it would be great to have a 'concrete answer' for level top arms or not, but looking through the responses it is quite clear that people have their own ideas ;)


when you fight, you always have one arm higher than the other. The higher arm protech your head, the lower arm protect your body. It makes no sense to train level arms IMO. I had a custom made wooden dummy. I assumed my dummy was a right hand person so I made his right arm higher than his left arm on purpose.

Probably the most comprehensive reasoning for the higher right arm imho :)

sanjuro_ronin
04-18-2011, 11:32 AM
when you fight, you always have one arm higher than the other. The higher arm protech your head, the lower arm protect your body. It makes no sense to train level arms IMO. I had a custom made wooden dummy. I assumed my dummy was a right hand person so I made his right arm higher than his left arm on purpose.

Southpaws must have a field day with you John, LOL !
;)

The wooden dummy does not simulate attacks, it can't since it doesn't move ie: attack.

It "simulates" a "shape" that you will be seeing.

If a person choose to have the right higher or the left higher or both level or even alternate during training, they are presenting themselves with different "shapes" to solve.
That's all.

YouKnowWho
04-18-2011, 11:58 AM
The wooden dummy does not simulate attacks,
It may not simulate your opponent's attack but it can simulate your own attack. If you use tan sau to push your opponent's leading higher arm higher, and use your bong sau to push your opponent's back lower arm lower, your opponent's center will be wide open for you to enter.

The guy that you have to fight may not be your WC guy. Boxers use level arms because they don't have to worry about kick.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/blackhistory/gallery/70s/8.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ikigaiway.com/2008/practical-tips-for-beginner-sparring/&h=320&w=400&sz=21&tbnid=dXSEhO7tQ7ldpM:&tbnh=99&tbnw=124&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dboxing%2Bstance%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3D u&zoom=1&q=boxing+stance&usg=__pK2ldOO-kT3Zvrz_YaugUewtwKs=&sa=X&ei=t4isTdadK6G00QHsjpn5CA&ved=0CDMQ9QEwBA

TCMA guys always use one arm high and one arm low fighting stance.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.yizongbagua.com/Santi%2520gallery/images/misc%2520shanxi%2520santi_jpg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.yizongbagua.com/Santi%2520gallery/pages/misc%2520shanxi%2520santi_jpg.htm&usg=__Gy8ZKWZdURDztkGoMG5WJfCCTPI=&h=640&w=480&sz=85&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=8vEcVlyJgOozxM:&tbnh=147&tbnw=112&ei=EYqsTaidBKmQ0QGdnfj4CA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DSanti%2BShi%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26rlz% 3D1I7DLUS_en%26biw%3D1379%26bih%3D857%26tbm%3Disch %26prmd%3Divnsbfdo&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=415&vpy=65&dur=294&hovh=259&hovw=194&tx=86&ty=145&oei=EYqsTaidBKmQ0QGdnfj4CA&page=1&ndsp=42&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0

sanjuro_ronin
04-18-2011, 12:14 PM
It may not simulate your opponent's attack but it can simulate your own attack. If you use tan sau to push your opponent's leading higher arm higher, and use your bong sau to push your opponent's back lower arm lower, you can enter right into his center.

The guy that you have to fight may not be your WC guy. Boxers use level arms because they don't have to worry about kick.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/blackhistory/gallery/70s/8.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ikigaiway.com/2008/practical-tips-for-beginner-sparring/&h=320&w=400&sz=21&tbnid=dXSEhO7tQ7ldpM:&tbnh=99&tbnw=124&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dboxing%2Bstance%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3D u&zoom=1&q=boxing+stance&usg=__pK2ldOO-kT3Zvrz_YaugUewtwKs=&sa=X&ei=t4isTdadK6G00QHsjpn5CA&ved=0CDMQ9QEwBA

TCMA guys always use one arm high and one arm low fighting stance.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.yizongbagua.com/Santi%2520gallery/images/misc%2520shanxi%2520santi_jpg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.yizongbagua.com/Santi%2520gallery/pages/misc%2520shanxi%2520santi_jpg.htm&usg=__Gy8ZKWZdURDztkGoMG5WJfCCTPI=&h=640&w=480&sz=85&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=8vEcVlyJgOozxM:&tbnh=147&tbnw=112&ei=EYqsTaidBKmQ0QGdnfj4CA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DSanti%2BShi%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26rlz% 3D1I7DLUS_en%26biw%3D1379%26bih%3D857%26tbm%3Disch %26prmd%3Divnsbfdo&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=415&vpy=65&dur=294&hovh=259&hovw=194&tx=86&ty=145&oei=EYqsTaidBKmQ0QGdnfj4CA&page=1&ndsp=42&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0



People use whatever hand position that prefer, I don't think the "rule set" maters that much to be honest.
Most Thai boxers use the boxer guard with a slight modification, as do MMA guys that have to deal with ALL types of attacks.

LoneTiger108
04-19-2011, 04:40 AM
Most Thai boxers use the boxer guard with a slight modification, as do MMA guys that have to deal with ALL types of attacks.

It interests me that the guard that most MMA/Thai/Boxers actually use is learnt via looksau in the Lee Shing Family. Looksau is a defensive interaction exercise, from my own training experience, and deals almost exclusively with the guard.

So on reflection, Wing Chun also guards against ALL types of attacks! That is, if you practice looksau correctly imho ;)

sanjuro_ronin
04-21-2011, 12:51 PM
It interests me that the guard that most MMA/Thai/Boxers actually use is learnt via looksau in the Lee Shing Family. Looksau is a defensive interaction exercise, from my own training experience, and deals almost exclusively with the guard.

So on reflection, Wing Chun also guards against ALL types of attacks! That is, if you practice looksau correctly imho ;)

Whatever guard you use, as long as you can use it, as a good guard.
Whatever shape it takes is personal.

That said and in regards to the wooden dummy, if the dummy is used to test and correct one structure then how is doing the dummy in a "less than forceful" way doing that?
When we hit, when we press, when we exert any force onto something, we get the equal amount back and it our structure that allows us to "deal" with that "rebound/recoil" of force.
The more you put out the more you get back the more structurlally sound you have to be.
This isn't opinion, this is basic biomechanics.
So, if one is NOT forceful ( in a controlled manner of course) on the dummy, what structure is one testing or correcting at all ??

bennyvt
04-21-2011, 04:28 PM
soiunds right to me ronin.

Phil Redmond
04-22-2011, 05:53 PM
ALL versions of WC do their forms to cover the same points/gates in space on both sides. You don't do a right tan lower or higher than the left one. It's that simple. Also, if you're doing YMWCK then the arms are level. That's according to the plans YM had.

trubblman
04-22-2011, 08:24 PM
ALL versions of WC do their forms to cover the same points/gates in space on both sides. You don't do a right tan lower or higher than the left one. It's that simple. Also, if you're doing YMWCK then the arms are level. That's according to the plans YM had.

You are not doing a right tan lower than left tan. You do a right tan sao on the low arm and the high arm and you do a left tan sao on the low arm and the high arm (assuming you have a dummy with arms of different height). Chu Shong Tin does YMWCK and the arms are decidedly not level. Just look on youtube and verify it.

Phil Redmond
04-23-2011, 10:07 PM
You are not doing a right tan lower than left tan. You do a right tan sao on the low arm and the high arm and you do a left tan sao on the low arm and the high arm (assuming you have a dummy with arms of different height). Chu Shong Tin does YMWCK and the arms are decidedly not level. Just look on youtube and verify it.
I think you missed my point. If you do SLT/SNT, CK, and Biu Jee you cover the same gates on both right and left sides. But since you want me to look on youtube. I'd like you to look here:
http://classic-web.archive.org/web/20060717012604/www.springtimesong.com/wcforms4woodendummy.htm
Yim Man gave the very first plans for a dummy to be made in HK to Cheung King Kong and Cheung Cheuk Hing to give to Koo Sang. Cheung King Kong was Wm. (Cheung Cheuk Hing's brother. I knew about this since the 70's before I even knew who Wm. Cheung was. Chu Shong Tin's Sifu (Yip Man), had dummy plans with level arms. So if you want to practice your forms at different levels on both sides then go for it.

LoneTiger108
04-24-2011, 06:32 AM
Also, if you're doing YMWCK then the arms are level. That's according to the plans YM had.

Hmm :confused: So according to you, Lee Shing was not Ip Mans student then Phil?? And everyone else who trains with the non-level arms are not linked to Ip Man either?

I think you need to take into account that the wooden man you have plans for was designed specifically for your Sifu and his students, just as my Sigungs was too.

Everyone had varied ideas to everything, and the wooden man is no different. But to even suggest that the level arms is the true heritage of Ip Mans teaching is ludicrous imho.

LoneTiger108
04-24-2011, 06:36 AM
That said and in regards to the wooden dummy, if the dummy is used to test and correct one structure then how is doing the dummy in a "less than forceful" way doing that.

And who actually trains their wooden man in a less than forceful way? Beginners, and people who do not know what the wooden man is for dude!

The 108 is very specific, and needs hands on instruction to 'fill in the gaps' presented by the cine8 footage and photographs of Ip Man. The form he presented was specifically for therapeutic purposes, showing positioning but hiding how to get there. Very clever stuff imho and very misunderstood by the legions of people who claim to have completed the form!

I will try to film a short clip of just the first set to highlight what I mean...

trubblman
04-24-2011, 07:19 AM
I think you missed my point. If you do SLT/SNT, CK, and Biu Jee you cover the same gates on both right and left sides. .

I think you missed my point. My point is that Wing Chun can be done with level arms or non level arms. It does not matter. The position of the arms does not make one better or worse, it's a point of preference, not technique.

Phil Redmond
04-24-2011, 12:47 PM
Hmm :confused: So according to you, Lee Shing was not Ip Mans student then Phil?? And everyone else who trains with the non-level arms are not linked to Ip Man either?

I think you need to take into account that the wooden man you have plans for was designed specifically for your Sifu and his students, just as my Sigungs was too.

Everyone had varied ideas to everything, and the wooden man is no different. But to even suggest that the level arms is the true heritage of Ip Mans teaching is ludicrous imho.
You have to be kidding me. Where did I ever say that Lee Shing wasn't one of Yip Man's students?
I may have even known that fact longer than you have depending on your age.
That dummy was the one used in Yip Man's school for everyone.

Phil Redmond
04-24-2011, 12:49 PM
I think you missed my point. My point is that Wing Chun can be done with level arms or non level arms. It does not matter. The position of the arms does not make one better or worse, it's a point of preference, not technique.
If that works for you then it's all good. :)

Phil Redmond
04-25-2011, 04:33 PM
This is Yip Man's dummy at the Museum in Fatshan.

k gledhill
04-25-2011, 04:47 PM
I see level arms ....:D

Phil Redmond
04-25-2011, 05:08 PM
I see level arms ....:D
Where ? :D:D:D:D:D

trubblman
04-25-2011, 06:04 PM
Maybe Yip Man had more than one

Phil Redmond
04-25-2011, 06:15 PM
Maybe Yip Man had more than one
He probably did use many, but the one in Fatshan was his.

Phil Redmond
04-25-2011, 06:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjqL9MdLj0k

trubblman
04-25-2011, 06:42 PM
My point is that it clearly can be seen Yip Man practicing on a dummy with uneven arms.

bennyvt
04-25-2011, 07:30 PM
i thought they were leung tings arms. Same as the picture of leung Jan that was of some bus driver. The museum isnt that authentic from what I was told. Considering the money was blown a couple of times by certain people its not suprising.
But I have both types of arms and it just makes the center small

Phil Redmond
04-25-2011, 07:33 PM
My point is that it clearly can be seen Yip Man practicing on a dummy with uneven arms.
Agreed, most people including me, will practice with any jong available. ;)

trubblman
04-25-2011, 07:42 PM
I am certainly not disagreeing, if one is lucky enough to have a mook jong, use it.

k gledhill
04-25-2011, 08:59 PM
As long as they arent high and making your elbows lift too much, your good.

LoneTiger108
04-26-2011, 04:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjqL9MdLj0k

Woah! How the moving image says a thousand words! :) Great (uncut!) clip and thanks for sharing.

You can see Ip Man actually struggling to remember what he is doing, and I even noticed him joke at the end of the Po Pye set which 90% of people still do in the same manner today. Actually, most guys tend to look very similar to Ip Man, which I find interesting as he definitely did not 'move like that' when he was younger (or so I'm told)

It's good to see and hear that most have put this 'level arms' thing behind us :)

Personally, I wouldn't put my money on anything in the Ip Man Tong being 'original' other than the bust of Ip Man! And I hear the upkeep of the place has gone downhill as the last footage I see the dummy was all mangled up where people had been cracking it one! Now there are signs everywhere warning people not to touch anything :(

Phil Redmond
04-26-2011, 04:54 AM
. . . You can see Ip Man actually struggling to remember what he is doing, . . .
I think he was simply feeling weak from his cancer.


. . .It's good to see and hear that most have put this 'level arms' thing behind us :) . . .
What level arms? :D

LoneTiger108
04-26-2011, 05:27 AM
I think he was simply feeling weak from his cancer.

I understand that Phil.

Check out my own footage filmed when the Tong opened and you will see the 'real' Ip Man wooden man with it's arms set how I have mine. They must change it around daily ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgialUAw1K8&feature=channel_video_title

sanjuro_ronin
04-26-2011, 06:10 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjqL9MdLj0k

Priceless stuff we have now, priceless.

LoneTiger108
04-26-2011, 07:28 AM
Priceless stuff we have now, priceless.

Yes indeed Sanjuro. But this footage has been around and available to anyone who visits Ip Man Tong in Foshan. It's projected in a loop inside the wooden dummy hall and it looks like this Youtube clip was filmed from there as that's the only place I remember seeing the uncut version...

Vajramusti
04-26-2011, 07:44 AM
Priceless stuff we have now, priceless.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That footage by the great man was taken only a few days before he died.
He was ill and feeble but you can still see the elements of the power that he had.
Ho Kam Ming was with him on the day that he died. When HKM went back to Macao from HK, Ip Ching called him to let him know that his father had died.

joy chaudhuri

sanjuro_ronin
04-26-2011, 11:07 AM
How many of the great ones have we lost without ANY footage?
Too many.
There is a lesson there for you old ****s....;)

Phil Redmond
04-27-2011, 10:49 AM
. . Check out my own footage filmed when the Tong opened and you will see the 'real' Ip Man wooden man with it's arms set how I have mine. They must change it around daily ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgialUAw1K8&feature=channel_video_title
I bet they do. It all depends on how the tenons are inserted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOpn9iIYpjI

Vajramusti
04-27-2011, 01:34 PM
An experienced person can adjust to different wing chun dummies. True for Ip man.
However for best development- upper arms being on the same level follows some important wing chun principles particularly principles descended from Ip Man.
These principles include balanced development on both left and right sides of the body.
With proper development one can adjust and apply in different ways.

joy chaudhuri

Phil Redmond
04-27-2011, 03:17 PM
What Sifu Joy said. :D

LoneTiger108
04-28-2011, 02:03 AM
You guys! :rolleyes::D

Play with your wooden man how you like, believe what stories you like. Because I do, and I wouldn't expect any less from the elder generation ;)

Phil Redmond
04-28-2011, 10:59 AM
You guys! :rolleyes::D

Play with your wooden man how you like, believe what stories you like. Because I do, and I wouldn't expect any less from the elder generation ;)
Spoken like a good young man....:D

LoneTiger108
04-28-2011, 11:12 AM
Spoken like a good young man....:D

Coming from one of the 'old boys' of this forum I will take that as a compliment :)

And I use the term 'old boys' in an endearing way. I do like chatting with elders of Wing Chun, as it throws up all sorts of challenges for us young bamboo forest types! ;)

bennyvt
07-22-2011, 10:29 PM
In the section when you do the low palm block tab then bong step to side and Pak sap and kick
_ where do you face when kicking . As in do you face the dummy or the leg. How would you use this.

k gledhill
07-23-2011, 02:17 PM
? last section ?

shaolinhouse
08-15-2011, 11:12 AM
If anyone is after a quality wooden dummy please feel free to visit my website. They are hand made from the finest hardwoods.

Thank you

Shaolinhouse.com (http://shaolinhouse.com)

GeneChing
04-06-2016, 04:28 PM
This is slightly OT


Capstone Design Fair showcases high-tech gadgets and innovative design (http://www.ucalgary.ca/utoday/issue/2016-04-06/capstone-design-fair-showcases-high-tech-gadgets-and-innovative-design)
Schulich School of Engineering students tackle real-world problems in their final-year projects
By Lisha Hassanali
April 6, 2016

http://www.ucalgary.ca/utoday/files/utoday/styles/utoday_cover_photo/public/160330_edit_capstone-design-fair-0018.jpg?itok=xIgS8izy&c=60cea67e1f647115978f55e1902a1e40
The annual Schulich School of Engineering Capstone Design Fair showcases and celebrates the design projects of final year Schulich engineering students, like the Wing Chun Training Dummy, shown here, that adjusts for different heights. Photo by Riley Brandt, University of Calgary

A tabletop hockey game with real ice, wireless speaker technology, and an adaptive tricycle wowed crowds with their innovative designs. Nearly 100 projects were on display at this year's annual Capstone Design Fair, all imagined, designed, and created by more than 500 Schulich School of Engineering students.

“Working on this design, I learned how to think and to find answers on my own,” says Scott Sokolosky, mechanical engineering student and team member with the ASHRAE ice hockey table project. “From a technical point of view, the technology we used in the table is no different than what is in your fridge at home.”

Applying technical knowledge in a collaborative environment

The Schulich School of Engineering believes future engineers learn best by doing. Final-year engineering students spend months developing their engineering ideas from concept to design and often to prototype in the Capstone Design program.

“Capstone is a chance for students to synthesize their learning and one of the most significant educational opportunities in their degree program,” says Ron Hugo, associate dean (teaching and learning). “It’s a very rich learning experience. Students apply technical knowledge and develop professional skills like time management and teamwork.”

Collaboration is a key component of the capstone course and students learn to work together, much like they would in real scenarios. In many cases, students acquire new skills in addition to applying their engineering education.

Learning business skills to complement engineering education

“We have an entrepreneurial project, so we really got to know the business side and about delivering a sales pitch through Innovate Calgary,” says Jenny Xing, electrical engineering student and team member of the Future of Shopping project. “We designed a new way to shop benefiting customers and retailers with our scanning technology.”

This year, the annual student project showcase was held at the Olympic Oval for the first time. The larger space accommodated both the growth of the program and allowed the campus community and public to get a sneak peek at the inventions of tomorrow.

Volunteers from industry, all professional engineers, judged the capstone design projects at the fair.

The 2016 Capstone Design Fair award winners:

Chemical Engineering First Place: Manufacture of Herceptin Biosimilar for Cancer Treatment
Chemical Engineering Second Place: Monoammonium Phosphate (MAP) Production
Civil Engineering First Place: The Recreation Centre Structural Design
Civil Engineering Second Place: The New Headworks Building at the Bonnybrook Wastewater Treatment Plant
Electrical and Computer Engineering First Place: Development of a Motion Based Wireless MIDI Controller
Electrical and Computer Engineering Second Place: Substation and Pumphouse Design
Geomatics Engineering First Place: Smart Cities for Smart Citizens
Geomatics Engineering Second Place: Road Curb Detection From Mobile LiDAR Data
Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering First Place: Fluidization of Fine Powders In Bulk Solid Heat Exchangers
Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering Second Place: Parks Explorer For Easter Seals Camp Horizon
Multi-Disciplinary Engineering First Place: Design of an underwater robot for navigation and exploration
2016 Capstone Design Fair Video award winners:

Geomatics Engineering: LiDAR Road Sign Detection
Geomatics Engineering: Pedestrian Navigation and Athletic Analysis Using a Wearable Device
Mechanical Engineering: Seal Wear Testing Apparatus
Mechanical Engineering: Small Scale Water Purification System
Mechanical Engineering: Adapted Trike

GeneChing
03-07-2019, 08:47 AM
NEW SHOWCASE EVENT at the Tiger Claw Elite KungFuMagazine.com Championship - The 1st Tiger Claw Wooden Dummy Championship. (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/info/tournament/WoodenDummyChampionship.html)

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/2945_Wooden-Dummy-Championship-Promo.jpg

THREADS
2019 Tiger Claw Elite Championships & KUNG FU TAI CHI DAY - May 18-19, San Jose CA (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71001-2019-Tiger-Claw-Elite-Championships-amp-KUNG-FU-TAI-CHI-DAY-May-18-19-San-Jose-CA)
Wooden Dummy (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?3617-Wooden-Dummy)

GeneChing
05-30-2019, 09:27 AM
Tiger Claw Elite Champions 2019 (https://www.tigerclawelite.com/tiger-claw-elite-champions/)

SHOWCASE CHAMPIONS
TIGER CLAW WOODEN DUMMY CHAMPIONS
17 & Under: Malunjkar, Kartik – Bing Yang Martial Arts
18+: Mau, Wilton – Lily Law Eagle Claw

Congrats to Kartik & Wilton. Pix to come.

GeneChing
02-06-2020, 10:45 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQG1-q4UEAA5tm_?format=jpg&name=900x900

THREADS
Winter 2020 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71573-Winter-2020)
Wooden Dummy (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?3617-Wooden-Dummy)