differences in functional power, prettyboypower,mountain climber power,joint power

[spiraler]

okay. we all know that alot of people in their early teens start to workout for 2 reasons.1.to get pretty for the ladies.2.to get stronger to perform better in activities.(to get the ladies)okay maybe three, both. or maybe more whatever. my point is. what is the difference between functional muscle and pretty muscle or bulk muscle or whatever. can a body builder who has never been rockclimbing keep up with advance rockclimbers just because of their amazing phisique?can a rock climber bench twice or three times their body weight? no, right?or am i wrong again. also, do the tendons play no part in lifting pulling pushing etc. this is how i see it. no matter how strong the muscle is in the arm, for example, it takes strength in the tendons to keep the entire arm from buckling and folding at each joint. am i wrong? has anyone had a ripped rotater cuff, it is located not in the muscle of your shoulder but in the balljoint, it totally impairs upward movement in your shoulder if it is damaged and i dont care how strong the muscles are around it, try throwing a fastbal, and there it goes, slipped out of that socket like butter.

[IronFist]

my point is. what is the difference between functional muscle and pretty muscle or bulk muscle or whatever.

Is there a difference? Sort of. Strength and skill at an activity are both dependent to a large extent upon neurological adaptation. Take strength, for example. If large muscles were necessary to be strong there would not be 120lb powerlifters who can deadlift 500lbs. As for skill, take a 150lb boxer who has been boxing for 10 years and he can probably hit harder than a 250lb bodybuilder who has never thrown a punch in his life, until the 250lb guy figures out what he's doing.

Now, all else being equal, a bigger muscle has the potential to be a stronger muscle. But all else is rarely equal. If you have a 250lb bodybuilder who has been boxing for 10 years, then watch out.


can a body builder who has never been rockclimbing keep up with advance rockclimbers just because of their amazing phisique?

No. There is a priniple I mentioned before called SAID (specific adaptation to imposed demands), which states that you get better at what you do, and worse at what you do not do. This is why sprinters don't benefit from training to run long distances, and why marathoners have no need to train sprinting. Similarly, someone who fights in 3 minute rounds who increases their running distance from 5 miles to 10 miles won't have any more endurance in their 3 minute fighting rounds because running 10 miles and fighting for 3 minutes are significantly different.

So how does this apply to your question? A rock climber has the adaptation, both from a muscular and a neurological perspective, to climb rocks. A bodybuilder does not if all he has ever done is bodybuilding. Now, would a bodybuilder do better than Joe Schmoe the average guy who has never worked out? Probably. But could he keep up with someone who is used to climbing rocks? No.

A similiar example: Who do you think would be better at hitting baseballs? A guy who has done nothing but play baseball for the past 20 years, a weightlifter who has never played baseball before, or a guy who doesn't work out OR play baseball?

What about someone who has played baseball AND lifted weights for the past 20 years?


can a rock climber bench twice or three times their body weight? no, right?or am i wrong again.

Probably not. Keep in mind that a 3x bodyweight bench press is world class and even most people who train for their whole lives will never get this. I understand your question, tho. The answer is no. Benching a lot of weight is a specific skill, just like rock climbing, that requires specialized training. Rock climbing in and of itself will not do much to increase your bench.


also, do the tendons play no part in lifting pulling pushing etc. this is how i see it. no matter how strong the muscle is in the arm, for example, it takes strength in the tendons to keep the entire arm from buckling and folding at each joint. am i wrong?

Tendons connect muscle to bone (not to be confused with ligaments, which connect bone to bone). They play a part in that your bones wouldn't move if you didn't have tendons connecting them to the muscles. Tendons are inelastic so you can't stretch them (well, you shouldn't. It's possible but it's very bad for you and they never go back to how they were before). But, it's impossible to move without muscle contraction (unless we're talking about falling with gravity, but we're not). Your tendons will probably get stronger as your muscles get stronger over time, but there's nothing you can do to speed it up, because your tendons are pretty much secondary in movement. Your muscles contract to create movement; everything else occurs as a result of that.


has anyone had a ripped rotater cuff, it is located not in the muscle of your shoulder but in the balljoint, it totally impairs upward movement in your shoulder if it is damaged and i dont care how strong the muscles are around it, try throwing a fastbal, and there it goes, slipped out of that socket like butter.

I don't get how that's relevent to the rest of your post, but ok. The rotator cuff is the same as any other muscle. If you train it correctly it will become stronger.

Another point to remember is that it's important to keep all your muscles proportional to each other in terms of strength (and size). If you got really strong triceps and never trained your biceps, that would increase your chances for injury.

edit - When I talk about neurological adaptation, think of it like this. In order for your muscles to fire, the command has to come from your brain. Over time, because your body is efficient, it becomes more efficient at doing so. So, as you get stronger, you can think of it as your body being able to do the same amount of work with less effort, or more efficiently. The neural pathways associated with the given movement become more efficient, and in turn your body gets better at doing it, whether it's bench pressing, rock climbing, or throwing a punch.

[Vash]

Ironfist has just laid out the correct in a scientific and downright sexy manner.

[Happeh]

Pretty muscle is usually external power. The person will be powerful like in punching but they won't have very good stamina at all.

You can think of your body as two halves. One is soft and squishy and one is hard. They are supposed to be balanced. If you increase one, the other usually goes down. If you do things right then both sides grow at a similar rate.

If you choose pretty boy muscle, it is hard. That means you lose the soft and squishy stuff. So what? Right? Well the problem is the soft and squishy stuff is associated with your breathing. That is why weight lifters got no stamina. They traded breathing power for hard big muscle power.

Hard, and soft and squishy is average guy talk for Yang and Yin.

What people need to keep in mind is that if you choose weight lifting power, it is hard to change it back into soft and squishy power. The person makes themselves hard as a rock when they lift weights. How long does it take to make a rock soft? There are some internal stylist teachers who will refuse to train external stylists because it takes forever for them to soften up enough to learn.

Once you figure out the internal, then you can start the weightlifting and hard training because you have your foundation activated.

[IronFist]

Pretty muscle is usually external power. The person will be powerful like in punching but they won't have very good stamina at all.

Um, no? Your "stamina" is dependent upon how much you train for stamina. It's SAID (see above). Having lots of muscle really has nothing to do with how much stamina you have.

Look at pro soccer players. Many of them are pretty big and lift weights, and they have the stamina to run around for a whole soccer game. That sounds like pretty good stamina to me.


If you choose pretty boy muscle, it is hard. That means you lose the soft and squishy stuff.

No it doesn't. See above.


So what? Right? Well the problem is the soft and squishy stuff is associated with your breathing. That is why weight lifters got no stamina. They traded breathing power for hard big muscle power.

I know some weight lifters with insane stamina.


What people need to keep in mind is that if you choose weight lifting power, it is hard to change it back into soft and squishy power.

"Change it back?" What are you talking about? You'll gain endurance if you train for it, and you'll lose it if you don't. End of story.


The person makes themselves hard as a rock when they lift weights. How long does it take to make a rock soft? There are some internal stylist teachers who will refuse to train external stylists because it takes forever for them to soften up enough to learn.


The internal teachers probably refuse to teach big weight lifter guys cuz they're afraid they'd be knocked all over the place ;)


Seriously tho, the amount of muscle you have is completely unrelated to both your ability to relax AND your flexibility. Remember, all muscle can do is either contract or relax. A Taiji instructor's muscles relax exactly the same as Mr. Olympia's.


Once you figure out the internal, then you can start the weightlifting and hard training because you have your foundation activated.

Ok let's go with that. Say someone develops "stamina," as you put it. And then they start lifting weights. If they don't keep up their "stamina" training as well, they will lose it. SAID. Your body becomes worse at what you don't make it do.

[IronFist]

^ dude that was me that said that about keeping muslces proportional, not spiraler.

And biceps are "predisposed to being stronger" than triceps? Where did your read that?

[spiraler]

what happened to me was i had slipped out of a full nelson causing my shoulder to dislocate at the beginning of the window closing position, when palm is forward and raised above head. also another question, is anyone familiar with the one inch punch or "short power" as in wing chun? they generate this power not thru total muscular forc but thru extension of the sholder joint and use of the spinal muscles(so they say), you can find a clip of this on the video thread. its a buddhist chi gung series. anyway, so its ligaments i am thinking of i guess, that generate force then?along with a slight pushoff/weight momentum transfer/snap, from the rear foot thru the lead arm?

[IronFist]

A one inch punch is body mechanics. If you watch clips of a lot of the "masters" you'll see that, while they start with their hand an inch away, in slow motion they actually pull their hand back 4 or 5 inches before they punch. I've even seen this in Wing Chun instructional tapes ::coughaugustinefongcough:: and in demos by local kung fu schools. I don't mean to discredit people who do this, tho; maybe they were just nervous cuz they were performing or something so they pulled their hand back to generate more power.


is anyone familiar with the one inch punch or "short power" as in wing chun? they generate this power not thru total muscular forc but thru extension of the sholder joint and use of the spinal muscles(so they say),

It is only muscular force. That's the only way the body can move.


you can find a clip of this on the video thread. its a buddhist chi gung series. anyway, so its ligaments i am thinking of i guess, that generate force then?along with a slight pushoff/weight momentum transfer/snap, from the rear foot thru the lead arm

No, it's muscles. Say it with me: "All movement is due to muscular contraction."

As a side note, it's really kind of funny to talk to qigong people about muscles. They always talk about moving without using their muscles, and muscle tension prevents qi flow and everything, but yet it is biologically impossible to move without using your muscles. Maybe that's why they think they can move with their tendons instead -- because it lets them think that they're not using their muscles and still being good qigongers.

In a properly performend one inch punch, the entire body works together, with most of the power coming from the waist, just like in a regular punch. There really is no secret to it, except for maybe the snapping up of the wrist at the end, but I guess Wing Chun does that all the time anyway.

[spiraler]

im assuming ground reaction force is one that causes your whole body to resist gravity as a whole, and focusing this energy can be used to move the body more easily or efficiantly?

[Samurai Jack]

couldn't agree more - there are some people out there with some funny ideas about "internal" arts not using any muscle force...

Okay, basically the way I understand it is that excessive muscular tension is really what the internalists are warning against. If you tense your entire arm while throwing a punch, your antagonistic muscles will be resisting the movement as it's being driven toward the target.

Sure the internalist and the modern trainee can't agree on terminology, but taken from that perspective, I believe they have a logical point. My experince supports the idea that most people use way too much tension in thier body movements, and it's essentially wasted effort since it actually serves to weaken the movement rather than increase power.

[AndrewS]

spiraler writes:


also another question, is anyone familiar with the one inch punch or "short power" as in wing chun? they generate this power not thru total muscular forc but thru extension of the sholder joint and use of the spinal muscles(so they say), you can find a clip of this on the video thread. its a buddhist chi gung series. anyway, so its ligaments i am thinking of i guess, that generate force then?along with a slight pushoff/weight momentum transfer/snap, from the rear foot thru the lead arm?

Short power is a general term in chinese martial arts for power evolved without much noticable motion from close in. It is trained in many systems, and each may have individual peculiarities, based on their particular mechanics. Short power in Wing Chun, Bak Mei, Chen Taiji, Xing Yi, Southern Preying Mantis, and Baiji would have somewhat different characteristics. Some western boxers can hit short too (and the ones that can are dangerous- see Kevin Rooney's analysis of Tyson destroying Spinks back in the day, and compare shoulder mechanics with Wong Sheung Leung on 'Science of Infighting').

Aside from the much more important issue of how to deliver short power, there seem to be a few things that are common between ways of hitting close:

1). Use of multiple methods of power generation. For instance, weight dropping or rising, combined with leg extension to 'bounce' off the ground (stomps in XY,Chen TJQ, Baiji), hip extension, abdominal tension (i.e. increased IA pressure a la Westside Barbell Club, some Shaolin, or Chen Taiji), moving the weight in subtly with a drop or rise, use of the thoracic musculature generate power by expansion or compression, subtle fast prestretches prior to firing to get a plyometric effect, visualizations to aid in coordination of the above.

2). Specific exercises to reinforce the above. Often these are odd bodyweight exercises or partner work meant to develop certain attributes, and are frequently the most guarded 'secrets'. Vince Black's organization has a pretty impressive repatoir of these with an very nice progressive structure. Pretty much everyone I've met who's gone through his curriculum comes out with something special, something I can't say about any other martial arts group I've encountered.

3). Apparatus training- most frequently in the form of weighty weapons, though not always. The founder of the Fu family martial arts appearantly used to like to play with his 30lb stone ball, and some Chen folks are fond of their iron balls, while SPM people seem to like to pop weighted rods off their forearms. Long levers seem to be a common theme- Baiji, Wing Chun, and Xing Yi are all closely linked to the spear (for the Wing Chun community- c'mon, it's 9 feet long, and the other weapon is a knife, you don't think someone had a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup moment somewhere back there?).

Power comes from muscular contraction. You may get some power out of storing elastic energy in connective tissue (along with the stretch reflex) by rapid eccentric contraction. This may be a component of the plyometric effect, though I've heard its relevance debated. Generally speaking the whole 'tendon power' thing is just a name for the way certain things feel, and has no physiologic basis.

The classic 'inch punch' demo (not the Bruce version) uses hip extension, extension of the thoracic spine, and scapular retraction with elbow extension, all delivered along a dynamicaly stabilized line down to ground. This is certainly not the only way to evolve short power in Wing Chun, but is the classic short punch from Character 2. There are a couple of cheater set ups typically used to make people go away ****her both with this, and with some of the more spectacular taiji pushes (basically load 'em down so they push up, then add something when you feel the up).


FWIW,

Andrew

[spiraler]

have you seen the bruce version, he barely twitches and not only does send the guy flying, he breaks the boards.

[AndrewS]

Not sure which Bruce demo you're talking about. The ones of him I've seen use a drop step and full rotation of the body, part of his attempt to jack up the power. Supposedly when he met up with Wong and compared punches after his modifications, they were still about equal in power, with Wong using much less motion.

Sending someone flying is technically considered long power, and is an expression of the same mechanics as short power (supposedly), expressed over longer time, basically making an elastic collision instead of an inelastic one.

*apply all caveats about using basic Newtonian mechanics when dealing with biomechanical systems here*

Andrew

[Samurai Jack]

My Kungfu teacher used to do a "no-inch-punch". You'd hold a phonebook over your chest so that it would'nt hurt too much, he'd put his fist against the phonebook, the next thing you know you'd hear a loud "POP!" and feel yourself hit the ground. It was awesome, and always left a perfect bright red fist imprint on your chest.

I watched him do it hundreds of times and never really figured out how he did it. It looked for all of the world like he was pulling his fist away from the punch, instead of moving it forward. This is also how he explained it. Darndest thing...

[spiraler]

pushing someone with a one inch punch is easy... getting the snap in and making an effective strike...well thats discipline and training+ a whole lotta skill and body awareness.

[AndrewS]

Spiraler,

it's a skill. It shouldn't take that long to learn with some guidance. You can develop it forever, some flavors of short power can be taught pretty quickly (within a few hours of teaching time).

SJ,

I *think* the mechanics here are kinda similar to those of a jerk. Leg and hip drive to accelerate the bar (arm), drop under to catch, lock out the arm and retract the shoulder to stabilize the shoulder girdle, and possibly add some leg drive in to the target just like you'd try to push up into the bar before it began to accelerate downwards.

Bottom line- I suspect the 'moving back' part is locking down the shoulder. The drive you could probably get from a couple of different engines, depending on the art.

Incidentally, not being obliged to use that shoulder motion is one criterion that has been presented as a distinguishing factor between internal and external (by Mike Sigman, his 'teacher test').

Andrew