Internal: cutting to the chase

[Ray Pina]

OK, a lot of folks have had a lot to say about internal the past two weeks. Now, I don't want to keep going to bed and thinking, "these guys don't know what the hell they're taking about" so, please, share with the board what kind of internal you have or have experienced first hand.

We'll start with the most basic: breathing.

From how many areas do you breath?

What I mean by this is that the diaphragm is the greatest common denominator, everyone uses that to expand the lungs (the lungs acting like a spunge). But that is the most basic. And surely a bunch of skilled internalist have found a way to expand the lung capacity further. So please, do tell.

[Merryprankster]

Stand with your feet approximately shoulder width apart, weight evenly distributed on both feet.

Stand as though your head and spine were suspended on a marionette string. This will bring your spine and head into proper alignment.

Shoulder blades need to be rotated down and back slightly, but relaxed. This will bring the shoulders very slightly back and the chest very slightly forward.

The hands should be held loosely in front of roughly the belly button area, the arms curved and awar from the sides of the body as if you were carrying a very light ball.

Exhale as far as you possibly can to begin the breath exercise. Using the diaphragm, expand your belly outwards. As you do this, you will notice that full, deep breathing is impossible without also expanding your ribcage forward and out to the sides. This will create a small amount of tension in the middle back - it will feel like your ribs are expanding slightly to the rear, but it's actually muscular - an illusion. This occurs because your body is naturally stabilizing your torso.

Do not raise your chest and shoulders higher. This creates tension and restricts breathing.

Begin aria.

[Royal Dragon]

Now, when you exhale, let the torso compreses vertically like an accordian. When you breath in, let it expand vertiaclly like an accordion.

As you exhale, bend the knees and elbows in, and unbend as you in hale. This is the core body mechanics of the internal. It has profound power generation once you know how to use it.

Other than the body mechanics issue, I don't see much between internal and external. Internal is harder to learn because you must retrain the body to move drastically differently than it is commonly used to.

external uses a twsiting sort of motion. The way the hips are used in the standard "Karate" punch best illistrates it to me. It is more common to the way people normally move anyway, so it is easier to pick up.

[Ray Pina]

Merry, I'm super impressed that you mention expanding the cavity and rib cage.

My master was talking about building a silo to hold rice, and say you started with something that had relative dimensions to a sheet of paper. Which would have more volume, folding it vertically or horizontally into a silo? Horizontally has more volume because of pi (he's an engeneer, I'm not)

The point, is that everyone talks about dropping the diaphragm, but expanding the width affords added volume as well.

The math doesn't mean anything to me, I'm not a sceintist. But he showed me a view things and you can expand several areas throughout the torso. Right now I can implement 3 and working on the fourth.

It's interesting and new to me. He's also showed me an excersice the joints, expand and contract them .... this is useful in locking and preventing being locked. But now I see that those old guys aren't just standing there .... they're doing stuff.

.........

On another note, you coming up to NYC next month? If so, try to make it out to my party on May 14th. Should be pretty good, a couple DJs, open bar, hopefully a lot of chicks ;)

Also, I'm organizing a MMA open mat for April 17th if you're interested, though I know you're a ways away.

[SPJ]

A. Breathing exercise is important or Qi Gong.

Standing practice as described is important.

There are also meditation or sensing and focusing to different parts of the body.

The idea is developing the sensing acuity in different parts of the body.

From intent (Yi) via Qi flow, a Jing is produced. This is the theory.

B. The goal is that you may produce Jing from every part of your body or Hun Shen Shi Jing 诨身是勁.

When in fight, you are sensing, neutralizing, guiding, and emptying out the opponent's Jing. You in turn also release your own Jing in a most efficient way to unbalance the opponent. You may use any part of your body to do that. Not just iron palm, fist, one finger or any single specialized one part of the body only.

It is all about Jing. Qi flow, too.

This is the theory.

For example, when you practice Tai Ji Lao Jia Yi Lu or Chen Chang Xing form, you practice and cultivate the intent and Qi flow in your standing in postures or in movements. You do not tense your muscles or try to relax all over so that you may move smoothly. To move slowly, so that your Qi and body are attuned to all the various points in the circle.

The direction of Jing is changing all the time. This gives you the flexibility and ability to change in any point in the circle. There are circles in your wrist, elbow, shoulder, waist, hip, knee and angle and steps.

Yes, you may practice any other form and focus on breathing and intent, too.

In contrast, with Pao Zui Er Lu you focus on releasing directional Jing in Cai Lie Zhou Kao, you do practice fast, stop and go. You focus on those 4 Jing issuing, no longer doing them slowly. So you have to have a good base in first routine and then practice the second routine.

What is internal?

It is about intent and Qi cultivation. It is about circles. It is about neutralizing Jing in all directions. It is about ability to issue your own Jing from all over your body.----

In order to listen, we have to use a little Peng Jing to contact, link, stick and follow. We listen or test the direction of the opponent's Jing by using a little Peng Jing in all directional circular move.

If you have a Peng Jing all over your body from relaxing and not tensing up?

There is a continuous movement from inward to outward (Peng and internal) in hands, arms, steps etc. We have to do a turn exchange---

It is about circular and spiraling kinetics. Ruo Xuan Jing in Ba Gua.--

---

---

:D

[SPJ]

I am not saying that I know it all.

But from my observations and practices.

Maybe it is all about where and how you focus the various aspects of your physical ability (external) and mental (internal) ability.

The theory may be wide apart.

The practice or moves (external) may look the same. The intent may be different.

2 things people like to argue about.

1. Qi. Can you prove Qi or what is Qi? Qi is in everything. Qi is air and O2 you breathe in. Both external or internal need Qi to work. If you focus more on gaining more smooth or longer Qi flow. In Tai Ji Qi gong, you practice to have 4 breaths per min and doing abdominal breathing in your moves, too. But all start with natural breathing.

2. Body mechanics. In order to do the different requirements from your intent, you have different body mechanics in every styles.

So where is the answer?

If I say too much, I will be labelled as troll supreme.

If I say nothing, I will be labelled as dunno kowner

Maybe the answer, my friends, is blowing in the wind? This is the song lyrics quoted by President Chen of Taiwan.

Yes, the ability to change may differentiate internal from external.

Or is it an empty exercise?

The question is always that where are you sailing?

The answer, my friends, is blowing in the wind?

:D

[Merryprankster]

Ray,

What I wrote was "basic stance" for formal voice training. :D I always get a kick out of the idea that "eastern" knows all this stuff about breathing and "western" doesn't. Not that you necessarily hold this view, but it is a sort of common thing bandied about.


As you exhale, bend the knees and elbows in, and unbend as you in hale. This is the core body mechanics of the internal. It has profound power generation once you know how to use it.

A natural byproduct of proper breathing in that stance, IMO, provided everything is appropriately relaxed/tensed. The elbows WILL sink towards the sides if this is done right....

It's amazing that people forget how to do this as they grow up. Babies have no problem.

Ray, I MAY be able to come around in April. I have a lot of thesis work to do, and I am behind.

[Chang Style Novice]

Efficient breathing is the same no matter what your reasons for it are. I'm just using common sense here, but I would imagine that healthy posture (ie: what Merry is talking about in his instructions for breathing) goes a long way toward many other benefits as well - not just musical and martial, either, although definitely including those.

In my taiji classes, we paid a lot of attention to getting posture right. If I'm not mistaken, that's one of the main reasons that you practice movements slowly. See my tagline.

[Merryprankster]

Efficient breathing is the same no matter what your reasons for it are.

Exactly....yet, people think their individual styles are somehow relying on different principles than somebody elses? Hmmmm......

[Chang Style Novice]

"Our martial arts principles require us to stare at our feet, with hips thrust forward, buttocks clenched, heels together and toes apart! Let your knees bend, roll your shoulders forward and clasp both hands over your groin, crossing the arms at the wrist with the fingers interlaced and the thumbs toward your body. In this ready stance, you are practically invincible!"

[Fu-Pow]

Ray, I MAY be able to come around in April. I have a lot of thesis work to do, and I am behind.

Aah....a graduate student.....that explains ALOT!

[Gangsterfist]

why is breathing so important?

The military trains marksmen and sharpshooters to breathe when shooting.

Singers are taught to breathe similiar.

People who run a lot breathe a similiar way.

Swimmers breath a certain way.

Martial artists breathe a certain way as well.

How to breathe, relax the body, only use tension where its needed. Breathe in your your nose and expand it down to your dan tien, and let your diaphram expand. This is called buddhist breathe. Taoist breath is done the same way but when you epxand the diaphram you push the breath up more towards yours your chest, it instead expands above your diaphram. Then there is yoga breathe, which is a three part breathing, same theroy applies but you expand it from the diaphram and push it up even further near the solar plexes.

Really, as long as you are using your whole lung capacity its good breathing. Most people do not use their whole lung capacity and it can lead to bad health later down the road. If you do not exercise your lungs properly when you get older and weaker, your lungs will diminish faster over someone who has exercised their lungs over the years. I do not mean no pain no gain either. I mean just utilizing the lungs for what they are good for, breathing, and utilizing them to their fullest capacity.

[red5angel]

What I wrote was "basic stance" for formal voice training. I always get a kick out of the idea that "eastern" knows all this stuff about breathing and "western" doesn't. Not that you necessarily hold this view, but it is a sort of common thing bandied about.


Sadly, it's true. Beofre China was discovered breathing in the west was just sloppy and inefficient.

[Ray Pina]

Merry: interestingly enough, my master used singers as an example when teaching this lesson, talking about how they have a "back of the throat" voice as well as a few others, and pointed out how a small chested woman can fill her chest up so large in one moment and then deflate it the next. :)

SPJ: It's a sad fact that on one hand people are curious or want to know about something, and then on the other hand they are quick to judge or not believe what you are telling them even though it is true and they lack experience in the matter. What can ya do?

Everyone has chi in them if they believe it or not. I drink water and it quenches me if I know how it does so scientificaly or not.

[fatcloud]

HAHAHA! i find this very amusing... spiraler gets banned and now everyone loves qigong?!?!?! maybe...just maybe you guys will figure something out!

[fatcloud]

on deep breathing, i like to place my hands on my hips, inhale as much as i can, pushing my breath all the way up into the area under my armpits, then on the exhale sink it all down to the dantien.do this until you feel lightheaded, pushing it down to the dantien each time, it will clear your mind and calm you down.

[red5angel]

HAHAHA! i find this very amusing... spiraler gets banned and now everyone loves qigong?!?!?! maybe...just maybe you guys will figure something out!


hey spiraler/taichibob, whadja do to get banned? I mean other then be an @ss

[JohnnyMnemonic]

Is internal strength something that only a martial artist can obtain?

Could you please post the reason for your yes or no answer?

[Merryprankster]

Is internal strength something that only a martial artist can obtain?

In my opinion no. What people seem to mean by internal is a certain kinesthetic awareness, that, IMO can be developed by Olympic weightlifters, gymnasts, dancers, baseball players, etc.

[JohnnyMnemonic]

hey spiraler/taichibob, whadja do to get banned? I mean other then be an @ss


I thought that spiraler was happeh?

Or is it You that is Spiraler? happeh is happeh and taichibob is taichibob? You want to cause your target grief so you come up with a plan.


You are spiraller and act obnoxious. Then you accuse the person you don't like, happeh, of being spiraller. Happeh only posts every few days so in one of the lull periods between posting, you post a bunch of crazy stuff as spiraller. Gullible people believe you when you tell them happeh and spiraller are the same person and both are banned.

Telling people happeh was spiraller got happeh banned, so now you are trying the same game with taichibob. Accuse taichibob of being spiraller or another one of your invented nicknames. As long as people stay gullible and trust you, why shouldn't it work again?

I don't think spiraler and happeh were the same. Happeh sounded like he believed what he was saying. Happeh insisted he could prove everything he said. Spirallers posts sound like a kid skipping around saying meaningless things to people. Whoever accused Happeh of being Spiraler got what they wanted. Getting happeh banned. All it took was some false accusation, deceit and deception.

[Merryprankster]

No offense, but the moderators have some ability to narrow down identities. So if somebody is being a jerk under two names, they can kind of figure it out to some extent.

[FuXnDajenariht]

very true. so i dont think its any forums members place to accuse someone of using 2 identities in place of a mod... seein as they have the ability to actually know these things.

all things considered tho. i think red is actually crazy enough to argue with himself lol :p

[Christopher M]

What people seem to mean by internal is a certain kinesthetic awareness

*mutter* :mad:

[red5angel]

In my opinion no. What people seem to mean by internal is a certain kinesthetic awareness, that, IMO can be developed by Olympic weightlifters, gymnasts, dancers, baseball players, etc


You mean they DO develop kinesthetic awareness, atleast to be able to compete even semi professionally. Or am I the only one here who believs that CMA doesn't hold the secret to unlocking "qi" ;)


JohnnyMnemonic, are yout alking to me? I can't tell, but you're bizarre speak leads me to believe you sir, are Happeh.
However, in case you really are just some guy trying to make a good impression by being an @ss with 4 posts - I posted for about two weeks under another screen name, about 3 years ago while I had some major decisions to make. Before and since then I have always and will always post under Red5angel. I don't get banned and I feel no need to hide behind multiple screen names to make my points.
Now only to figure out if you are Ailek/Fupow or Taichibob/Spiraller/Happeh, or Volcano Admin/Xebs/Moremisfortune.........

[Merryprankster]

I know Chris M....and I agree with you 100%. Hence my use of "what people seem to mean..."

[Christopher M]

I know, I'm just teasing. :p

[bung bo]

http://shenwu.com/Internal_VS_External.htm

[NeedsPractice]

i believe that some athletes(not all) particularly at the olympic level, and the highest level of professional sports do develop some internal abilitities (sport specific). Imagine all your life practicing the same movements for hours a day? (sounds like internal arts) What seperates the most elite of athletes from the group just below them?
However since their focus is still on athletics ( which are still largely tied to muscular strength and ability) its not on a par with people who develop thier internal ability for a broader usage (health etc). In addition some of their athletic ( physical activities) are probably counter productive to maintaining their level of internalization.

I believe their are some real people with internal skill just very,very few and very far between. Maybe 5 % of the people who actually claim it in martial arts.
Considering that maybe 20% of the people who teach, or practice martial arts are as skilled as they claim, and internal arts are supposed to be a higher level of martial arts.
Think about it in everything there are a handful of people who are very good then there is everybody else.
Every teacher has a small handful of very good students then there is everybody else whether its a good school or a mcdojo.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It seems to me that "Internal Arts" incorporate a more holistic approach to Martial Arts.. from which some people derived an inclination toward a more health oriented practice, and some continue the intended martial lineage.. The call for internal fighters to step into the sport arena demonstrates a fundamental difference in the internal/external concept.. externalists need validation of their skills, internalists (of the martial lineage) generally do not hold their art out as a show or competition (of course there are exceptions).. hence, one of the reasons for the label internal, it is a personal quest and an internal endeavor.. while externalists proudly display their skills in sporting carnival-like events, internalists continue to observe and stragetize counter techniques to the displayed external skills.. i see no need to display counter techniques until it actually matters, on the streets.. again, the externalists ridicule the internal players regarding "unproven" techniques, as if the public display of sport-fighting is the only valid way of determining the usefulness of a technique.. it is not. There are internalists that train with characteristically similar intensity and with similar goals, we simply prefer to keep a low profile and not show all our skills.. Sun Tzu would note that if i can see your army i can strategize a victory, if you can't see mine i have an advantage..

This is just one of many aspects that illustrate the differences..

Be well..

[SiuHung]

Greetings..

It seems to me that "Internal Arts" incorporate a more holistic approach to Martial Arts.. from which some people derived an inclination toward a more health oriented practice, and some continue the intended martial lineage.. The call for internal fighters to step into the sport arena demonstrates a fundamental difference in the internal/external concept.. externalists need validation of their skills, internalists (of the martial lineage) generally do not hold their art out as a show or competition (of course there are exceptions).. hence, one of the reasons for the label internal, it is a personal quest and an internal endeavor.. while externalists proudly display their skills in sporting carnival-like events, internalists continue to observe and stragetize counter techniques to the displayed external skills.. i see no need to display counter techniques until it actually matters, on the streets.. again, the externalists ridicule the internal players regarding "unproven" techniques, as if the public display of sport-fighting is the only valid way of determining the usefulness of a technique.. it is not. There are internalists that train with characteristically similar intensity and with similar goals, we simply prefer to keep a low profile and not show all our skills.. Sun Tzu would note that if i can see your army i can strategize a victory, if you can't see mine i have an advantage..

This is just one of many aspects that illustrate the differences..

Be well..

So that's it everyone.

Look out for the secret hordes of internal fighters who are keeping it all to themselves.

Garbage!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

SiuHung: It's not "secret", you could play too.. if you were of a mind to do so.. unfortunately there are no "hordes", too few willing to train in that manner.. no one's "keeping it to themselves".. they just don't make a spectacle of it.. and, the only "garbage" is closed-minded sarcastic responses such as this..

Be well..

[SiuHung]

Greetings..

SiuHung: It's not "secret", you could play too.. if you were of a mind to do so.. unfortunately there are no "hordes", too few willing to train in that manner.. no one's "keeping it to themselves".. they just don't make a spectacle of it.. and, the only "garbage" is closed-minded sarcastic responses such as this..

Be well..


Ok Bob, I got nothing against you personally. However, in my all my years of CMA I've easily met over one hundred internal players, mostly Tai Chi. Out of them, I can count on my hand the number who knew even a little about fighting and were willing to demonstrate thier knowledge. Of those few, all of them had a solid background in "lowly" external styles.

I do beleive that there are internal style practitioners out there that train to fight. I'm sure somewhere they exist. But, they are horrible underrepresented, and if they're keeping to themselves and training silently, then they are doing thier respective fighting systems a huge disservice. So please, if there are internal fighters out there, come forth. Show the world to keep your skills alive and spread them. There are no secret fight technologies anymore, and it's time to show the effectiveness of internal MARTIAL arts.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

SiuHung:
Of those few, all of them had a solid background in "lowly" external styles. Agreed.. it seems that, at some point, external styles leave the dedicated martial artist hungry for more.. and, internal martial arts satisfy that hunger.. and, please understand that i do not consider external styles "lowly", my first 15 years were strictly external, rewarding and effective.. but, something was missing..
So please, if there are internal fighters out there, come forth. Show the world to keep your skills alive and spread them. There are no secret fight technologies anymore, and it's time to show the effectiveness of internal MARTIAL arts. It's not about "secrets", it's just a preference.. the skills are alive, not overtly marketed or mass produced.. Taiji invites those inclined to seek its benefits.. and, it seems that those inclined are further inclined to keep a low profile.. Taiji will never have the McDojo syndrome, too few willing to immerse themselves into lifelong journey.. its really a question of priorities, do i train for me.. or, to prove something to others.. and, i'm in it for me..

Much of the skill developed Taiji (complemented in my instance with Qinna) cannot be utilized in standard competition.. joint manipulations and hyper-extensions, breaks, etc... and, its not that we perceive the techniques to be "too dangerous".. no, it's that if we show the techniques at anything less than full effectiveness the opponent claims it ineffective.. most of us are tired of locking someone up and demonstrating a technique, that, if executed fully could maim or kill, and by demonstrating equal measure of mercy offering the opponent a healthy alternative, from which it is likely they will formulate a counter.. or, show it at full effectiveness and they cry foul.. it's a lose/lose.. and, often the equipment (both the opponent's and the Taiji player's) precludes effective techniques.. i am willing to cross hands with almost anyone having reasonable intent, but.. not as a public spectacle.. there's plenty of that already..

I have no quarrel with most, however, i dislike those that can't be civil, but it doesn't rise to a quarrel or violence.. just a downgrading of the level of respect earned. At some level, "i" think CMA and all MA should be role models for a better society.. not a bunch of bickering bullies...

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

in my all my years of CMA I've easily met over one hundred internal players, mostly Tai Chi. Out of them, I can count on my hand the number who knew even a little about fighting and were willing to demonstrate thier knowledge.

You might not be asking the right people.

Stop being a bully and going to house-wife Taiji people training at the Y or your local yoga center. Go knock on Mr. CC Chens door and ask to play with his son ... or even his daughter. Track down Mr. Novell Bell and his people, go ask them to play. Or, come to this weekend's Throwdown I'm trying to organize and play with me.

[SiuHung]

You might not be asking the right people.

Stop being a bully and going to house-wife Taiji people training at the Y or your local yoga center. Go knock on Mr. CC Chens door and ask to play with his son ... or even his daughter. Track down Mr. Novell Bell and his people, go ask them to play. Or, come to this weekend's Throwdown I'm trying to organize and play with me.

Ray,
Sorry, I made atrip to NY last fall and won't be making one again for some time. When I do, I'll let you know. I like your spirit. I've heard of Mr. Bell, and I respect him for showing his hands. Mr. CC Chen's family does fight...but I've met plenty of people who've studied under him who don't know a thing about fighting. Also, I beleive that something was mentioned about some supplementary training for the Chen's along the way...(you know, external stuff!)

Anyway, my source of angst regarding internal stems from the attitude. I have always been left with the impression that internal folks seem to think that thier stuff is somehow better. But there's never explanations or demonstrations as to why and how. All there is, is talk of either health, or skills that no one seems to be willing to show. Isn't that odd for martial arts?

[Ray Pina]

I agree with you....

I see a lot of guys who talk about the superiority of Internal fighting but can't fight. Others don't even want to bring up fighting so they talk health and chi gung. These guys rarely look that healthy and what the hell are they doing (what I ask when I watch tape of their chi gung).

As for Mr. CC Chen's school and students: I can't speak of it. But I know where I train very few are actually interested in the fighting side of it, they are more into the health and fun side of things ..... they can defend themselves though.

But to be honest, take someone training where I train who is a hobbyist, of course he'll get eaten up by even the guy who lives and breathes Tae Kwon Do.

No. 1: You have to have the fighting spirit/mind.
No. 2: You have to train realistically.
No.3 : your technique has to be good.

There is a difference between External and Internal .... I have trained external martial arts for 20-some-odd years. For me, I didn't have the confidence to really fight until meeting my master, who's an internalist. But this just happened to be when the above 3 things came together for me.

The one thing I see that's different is that internalists can stretch the age and weight gap a little more. My master is 64 and still fights the young, big guy. I'm 30, 187, and I'm scheduled to fight a 6'4" 260 on Sunday.

If you plan on lifting to get big and strong and have the attitude of "I'll just be tough and keep throwing" .... how do you beet a guy who has 80lbs on you and probbaly 8 inches in reach? You better be really tough or know something different. Because chances are he's coming really strong too.

This is the reason I train internal. I don't only want to talk $hit now. I want to talk $hit when I'm 60 ..... I don't want to say, come fight one of my students. No, I want to say, come fight me.

I'm glad I have someone who has set this example and goal for me.

[Merryprankster]

Ray,

I've gotta ask where Judo, BJJ, wrestling are on the map then, because I know some old guys that can tool people, and I know I've beaten guys that are much larger and stronger than me.

Perhaps the reality is that maybe good is good, and if you're good enough, you'll probably win... but all other things being equal, age matters?

Just something to consider.

My problem is the idea that you are studying something and attributing success in later years to that something. Perhaps it's just the fact of being very good.

[red5angel]

Ray,

I've gotta ask where Judo, BJJ, wrestling are on the map then, because I know some old guys that can tool people, and I know I've beaten guys that are much larger and stronger than me.

Perhaps the reality is that maybe good is good, and if you're good enough, you'll probably win... but all other things being equal, age matters?

Just something to consider.

My problem is the idea that you are studying something and attributing success in later years to that something. Perhaps it's just the fact of being very good.



cause it's worth repeating.

[red5angel]

ok, so there is something I'd like to see disappear. If people want to insist there is a division between external and internal - the only difference I see is metaphysical - then let's all atleast sit down and admit that so called internal arts do not allow really old men and really small people to overcome everything that is larger and stronger. Here are some truths in my experience:

Some old men are really tough, but they have the brittleness of age.
I've never been taken down by a women except voluntarily.
I've been taken down by smaller people.
I've been submitted by men and women of varying sizes (not a hobby, but the fighting thingy)
Skill can certainly overcome strength, but skill combined with strength are far superior to either of the other two alone.


When I studied "internal" I was one of the larger people in class, I massed way more muscle then just about everyone except two that I can think of. In all cases I never felt that those people had anything on me.

So in my opinion, I'd have to say that while an old guy might be able to pull of some serious moves if he's been studying all his life, I think it has more to do with the fact that he has studied all his life and not what it was he was studying.


Oh yeah, and girls are weak (that ones for you Willow Sword.)

[FatherDog]

Much of the skill developed Taiji (complemented in my instance with Qinna) cannot be utilized in standard competition.. joint manipulations and hyper-extensions, breaks, etc... and, its not that we perceive the techniques to be "too dangerous".. no, it's that if we show the techniques at anything less than full effectiveness the opponent claims it ineffective.. most of us are tired of locking someone up and demonstrating a technique, that, if executed fully could maim or kill, and by demonstrating equal measure of mercy offering the opponent a healthy alternative, from which it is likely they will formulate a counter.. or, show it at full effectiveness and they cry foul..

Funny how jiujitsu, judo, and sambo all utilize joint manipulations, hyperextensions, and breaks, and are able to use them at less than full effectiveness but still prevent them from being countered.

The reason for this is that in all of these arts, before one manipulates the joints, one establishes control of the body. Once one has done that, one can apply manipulations even in a slow and controlled manner, and still prevent the opponent from countering them.

If your tai-chi joint manipulations are unable to be applied at anything less than full effectiveness, it is because you are not controlling the body before you attack the joint - and this means that you are depending entirely on your speed in executing the technique vs your opponent's speed in reaction to defend it. The minute you fight someone who's just a little faster than you, your techniques are useless.

To put it more simply - if your style cannot be used in standard competition because your joint manipulations are ineffective if done at less than breakneck speed - your joint manipulations are worthless **** as far as technique goes.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

FatherDog:
To put it more simply - if your style cannot be used in standard competition because your joint manipulations are ineffective if done at less than breakneck speed - your joint manipulations are worthless **** as far as technique goes Okay, i will break it down for you.. the implication of using techniques at full effectiveness is that unless you do many of the externalists effect a counter and imply the ineffectiveness of the technique that wasn't fully executed.. too often i lock someone up, demonstrate a decisive technique without enforcing the "decisive" part, only to have them work out of the lock and point to the "ineffectiveness" of it.. when, if the technique was applied at full-force, there would be nothing further to consider.. it's the "mercy factor", if i have your wrist locked and compromised and you struggle against or wriggle free, my alternative is injure you to prevent the escape.. i have no reason to injure someone in a sport venue.. On the street, you struggle, there is a quick movement, a snap, and the effectiveness is apparent.. as far as "worthless", that points to the fallacy that sport-fighting is somehow comparable to street fighting..

In many competitions the gear used hampers or prevents the use of many techniques.. even lightweight hand pads disconnect many of the techniques from their street effectiveness, making the intercept and control much more difficult by changing the shape and size of the hand.. in sport fighting i would not pretzle lock someone then apply an elbow to the nose.. depending on the situation, i might do that on the street.. these are different games.. i was trained to defend myself on the streets, and i train my students that way. Sport fighting is great conditioning, but it's not street fighting.. i have done the sport fighting thing (PKA 1971-1974) it was fun and instructional (and occasionally painful).. today, at 54, i'm not interested in competitions, i learned enough to know what works and what doesn't.. i play seriously but with good intentions when we work out applications as they might appear in a street situation.. heck, i even spar with some of the fighters to keep ring-rust to a minimum..

Why is there such a fuss over good Taiji.. and, yes, i distinguish between good Taiji and "new age dance".. it is not necessary to be a top-ranked professional fighter to defend yourself in most situations.. but it is necessary to have experience under pressure, and at my school we do that..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

Ray,

I've gotta ask where Judo, BJJ, wrestling are on the map then, because I know some old guys that can tool people, and I know I've beaten guys that are much larger and stronger than me.

Perhaps the reality is that maybe good is good, and if you're good enough, you'll probably win... but all other things being equal, age matters?

Just something to consider.

My problem is the idea that you are studying something and attributing success in later years to that something. Perhaps it's just the fact of being very good.

Well, I've also seen some talented Judo guys who were older, in their 50s .... the difference is, they started the match holding onto each other and didn't allow full contact striking. The gentleman I'm talking about is 64 and allows what you want.

[Ray Pina]

Red, this is where you get annoying .... what type of internal did you study and with who?

I'm learning Internal from the 4th generation Ba Gua (I'll be the fifth: check the web site in my sig). But forget lineage. I'll post some footage next week of the type of fighting I'm doing with guys my age and younger and bigger .... and when I tell you my 64 year old teacher can kill me just like that, that his hands feel like sledge hammers .... that there's nothign brittle about him ....... but here you are in what, Wisconsin, telling me what a master who has trained 59 years in external and internal .... who had a pretty big rep in Chinatown over 20 years ago but admits himself he had nothing until he was in his 40 .... "the good stuff" as he calls it ...... but you ..... you has put his foot in this pool and then gets persuaded to put his foot in that pool, and then goes here and then goes there knows what's what when it comes to internal. Hell, what do you have of external?

Can you see how this gets annoying?

I'm not saying internal is better than external. It would be so borring if everyone fought the same way. But there is a difference. And yes, there is a lot of crap out there. And yes, you can say that I'm saying I'm one of those people who are studying at a place that isn't crap. And how do you want me to prove it? I'm willing to prove it the way martial artists should prove their point .... put the keyboard down, pick the fists up.

With that said, no doubt if you want to be a fighter fast and learn a bit of everything quick, MMA is the way to go! No doubt these guys are fighters.

I'm looking for a little bit more and am finding it. Fighting is a side benefit. Who here is becoming an assasin?

[Merryprankster]

Well, I've also seen some talented Judo guys who were older, in their 50s .... the difference is, they started the match holding onto each other and didn't allow full contact striking. The gentleman I'm talking about is 64 and allows what you want.

My response is "ok, so what?" Both people are playing by the same sets of rules, and quite frankly, Judo is an injury waiting to happen. The Gi allows for an amazing amount of momentum to be generated.

Do they somehow become less tough or good at what they do when the rules change? No, they remain just as capable - out of their element, but just as capable of putting a hurtin on somebody. Their skills and toughness, and ability to hand out an asswhoopin did not change - only the "rules" changed. Their ability to execute what the know might change, as the range of responses has increased, but that is an issue of training, not ability.

My point is that if these same guys had fallen in love with San Da at an early age, or MMA at an early age, there is no reason to expect that they would not be just as capable into the 50's-60's at THOSE things, rather than Judo.

You are discussing context, which is immaterial to the issue at hand - which is why I don't think the argument that there is "something special," that keeps you going. Stories about old guys that can take you apart abound in EVERY art. The diversity suggests that this is a common thing.

My boxing coach was 60+. He wrestled in College, and was a golden gloves boxer in texas... I'm 100% certain he could tool a lot of younger guys.

Quite frankly, I'm betting that for as many internal masters as there are stories about incredible longevity and spryness, there are as many that died early and/or feeble.

The difference is, nobody wants to hear those stories.

Please understand, I'm taking nothing away from your Sifu. Old guys who can hang always get my respect. I just don't think there is anything in the training that contributes to that longevity any more than there is in any other art.

[Merryprankster]

FWIW, they don't start out holding each other. They might on a gentleman's agreement or something, but gripfighting is a subdiscipline in Judo that is almost as important than the throws themselves...in fact, at high levels, I would say that what distinguishes many of the world class from the merely great is their gripfighting.

[Ray Pina]

Merry, I agree with most of what you're saying. I hear of internal guys who died relatively young quite freaquently. My S. Manits friends who were doing "internal" had to be hospitalized because they screwed themselves up.

Anyway, when it comes to Judo I do think the rules matter. You have an older guy vs a younger guy but it is a game of leverage and balance and the older guy is capitalizing on years of experience to unbalance the other.

All fighting is based on this. But, can that 58 year old Judo guy get that position (holding sleeve and jacket) on a young guy who is throwing bombs at him? I don't know. I've never seen it personally. I have seen my teacher, who's 64, handle punching from strangers coming in to see.

I certainly did not want to turn this into a "my teacher" or "my school" thread. I'm just expressing that one can become a very good fighter through internal training IF they are trained properly and am using my experince to justify that comment.

For the most part, what I see commercially available in terms of Chinese martial arts is a terrible distortian that plays upon people's inner expectations of what Kung Fu is .... the uniforms, the cool weapons, the alter, the incense. But if you issued folks a pair of boxing gloves and put them in line to do some serious punching drills, made them squat down and walk laps back and forth to condition their legs, do power drills all night that aren't exciting and no forms at all .... if you want to impress someone you better beat them ...... well, you just can't pay strip-mall rent that way.

So when I hear someone like Red bad mouthing Internal it wouldn't bother me so much except that his opinion is being broadcasted to potential millions and its validated by others whith no experience. So I ask him again: what type of internal training did he receive in Wisconsin and from whom? And for how long?

After 3 years of training I am just now strarting to make some progress where I'm dropping my old fight habits. It takes time. But at the same time I feel I'm trained well enough to defend myself. Win or lose, no body has beaten me. I can protect myself. And I like to test.

[red5angel]

Actually Ray, this is where I'd say you get annoying, since the worship of your instructor seems to someitmes get in the way of you being rational. I'll straighten you out though:


Red, this is where you get annoying .... what type of internal did you study and with who?

Taichi and Wingchun, some Tacihi Bagua. I learned from an instructor who was learning from guys with the same credentials your instructor has so I was technically just one place removed from where you stand. Are you gonna claim that makes that big a difference? This guy hit harder then I've ever been hit before, and he claims his instructor, also a guy in his 60's or 70's (the guy lives in Seattle and I think is the lineage holder for Fu style bagua or something) can hit even harder then he can.



but here you are in what, Wisconsin,

Minnesota but WTF does that have to do with anything? Answer me that? NYC city has something I don't? :rolleyes: From here on out why don't you not make ignorant shots like that so we can have a conversation without you losing credibility ok?



telling me what a master


no, as a matter of fact I didn't say anything about your master specifically.


you has put his foot in this pool and then gets persuaded to put his foot in that pool, and then goes here and then goes there knows what's what when it comes to internal. Hell, what do you have of external?


Awe, is little Raymond getting upset? Why don't you settle the fukk down and try to be rational here ok? I notice you get pretty upset when someone claims to have some experience and refutes or disgarees with you? What is that? I'm tired of guys like you claiming it takes years to understand this stuff. Maybe in a year I barely scrached the surface, but if you had been paying attention at all instead of letting your grundies get all bunched up, you'd have noticed that I actually back slid in a lot of ways which went to show me that it ain't nothing.


Can you see how this gets annoying?

Yep, everything before this sentence is extremely fukking annoying because it's like BakMei/Evolution fist all over again. Too much hero worship and all this bull**** you can't calm down long enough to talk about this sensibly.


And yes, you can say that I'm saying I'm one of those people who are studying at a place that isn't crap.

everyone says that, you have so far shown us one fight where you were sloppy and you lost, or was it quit, after less then two minutes?

Frankly Ray, that last post of yours has ****ed me off. With each consecutive interation of your personality on this forum you've got a little bit more rational and a little bit more intelligent, but every once in a while the old Ray shines through and we get a **** post like that. You want to try to take some cheap shots then I'm gonna go ahead and return fire.

I don't want to hear anymore talk from you of higher level skill, how your instructor is the **** and how you got something you think is going to surprise people, it's crap and you know it. Sure you've got in the ring and sure you've shown up at a few throwdowns, big fukking deal, frankly I'm sick and tired of the high horse you keep trying to get on. Over the last two months we've had to hear how you're taking the truth to the people but everytime an oppurtunity is thrown to you you got some silly excuse why you can't follow up. You went to one stupid Bullshido throwdown, the most regimented event possible out of those offered to you - and don't feed me any crap about you not knowing what it was going to be like. You talk like you expected it to be some sort of all out braw when I'm starting to think you knew all along it was going to be a lot softer then that.

Show us what you got Ray, throw down for a change. Stop fukking whining about rules and regulations, if you got any skill at all you can fukking adapt. On one hand you're self deprecating with the "I know I don't have all the tools yet" and on the next you're fukking talking about making people pay 500$ to fight youy. Get real. You're trying to be a big fish when your a little fish in a big pond and for all you're talk of manning up and talking I'm not seeing it brother. So here's the challenge tough guy, stop talking about fighting and fukking do it. Stop shoting off your mouth about thinsg you don't know, and claiming others have no idea, when you can't bother to show up for a fight that has rules. Bulls hit, it's a tough guy internet act I'm sick and tired of seeing. MAN UP RAYMOND!!!!

Serioiusly dude, grow up, stop whining about the rules and fight already. You got no room to say **** about anything as long as you keep this tough guy wanna fight facade up ok? You've had offers and suggestiosn and none of them are good enough for you and I'm calling you out for it. I think you're just avoiding the whole fukking thing. You got into a ring once, posted a video, and even though you did a **** job, all the kudos you got for it went to your head and now you're juyst talking a whole bunch of smack. So before you decide to go criticizing me, or anyone else on this fukking forum for anything, DO IT OR SHUT IT No more excuses Ray.

[Ray Pina]

Between you and me Merry, and I can say this to you because you are not a Kung Fu guy and train well, but I'm organizing a Throwdown this Sun. in NYC and it never even occured to me to solicit folks here, a board comprised of mostly external guys.

But for those interested we could use the bodies: Fight House, 122 West 27 st, 2nd Fl. 1p.m. this Sunday.

PM me if you'd like more details.

[red5angel]

Between you and me Merry, and I can say this to you because you are not a Kung Fu guy and train well, but I'm organizing a Throwdown this Sun. in NYC and it never even occured to me to solicit folks here, a board comprised of mostly external guys.
.


Ok hotshot, you got guts to make shots at people on the internet, why don't you explain to me what exactly the difference is between internal and external. No bull, no crap, explain it to me in terms everyone here can understand.

[Gangsterfist]

Greetings..

FatherDog: Okay, i will break it down for you.. the implication of using techniques at full effectiveness is that unless you do many of the externalists effect a counter and imply the ineffectiveness of the technique that wasn't fully executed.. too often i lock someone up, demonstrate a decisive technique without enforcing the "decisive" part, only to have them work out of the lock and point to the "ineffectiveness" of it.. when, if the technique was applied at full-force, there would be nothing further to consider.. it's the "mercy factor", if i have your wrist locked and compromised and you struggle against or wriggle free, my alternative is injure you to prevent the escape.. i have no reason to injure someone in a sport venue.. On the street, you struggle, there is a quick movement, a snap, and the effectiveness is apparent.. as far as "worthless", that points to the fallacy that sport-fighting is somehow comparable to street fighting..

Yes I agree to an extent with you bob. Many times people will try to punch through an arm bar, or another comprimising chin na-type attack. Not realizing that in reality if that were applied full force it would break, or hyper extend. However, being a taiji practitioner myself, I must say that some of those techniques rely on the attackers commitment. If you are fighting someone light on their feet, that barrages you with uncommitted strikes, it can and will make it very hard for those "comprimising techniques" to work. Being also that I currently train an external style, and have previous years in karate. External arts know to redirect force. They know that when something doesn't work, they redirect it. In reality if you train internal/external for years and become proficient, I think that the end results are the same. That in the end there really is not external or internal, its all controlling motion and energy.

In many competitions the gear used hampers or prevents the use of many techniques.. even lightweight hand pads disconnect many of the techniques from their street effectiveness, making the intercept and control much more difficult by changing the shape and size of the hand.. in sport fighting i would not pretzle lock someone then apply an elbow to the nose.. depending on the situation, i might do that on the street.. these are different games.. i was trained to defend myself on the streets, and i train my students that way. Sport fighting is great conditioning, but it's not street fighting.. i have done the sport fighting thing (PKA 1971-1974) it was fun and instructional (and occasionally painful).. today, at 54, i'm not interested in competitions, i learned enough to know what works and what doesn't.. i play seriously but with good intentions when we work out applications as they might appear in a street situation.. heck, i even spar with some of the fighters to keep ring-rust to a minimum..

This has been argued by some wing chun people. Saying boxing gloves hinder the application of some centerline theory attacks and defense motions. Which in hinds sight they do. However, MMA gloves don't, and you can get some padded ones that will prevent some injury. Also, if your art is so severly hindered by some sparring equipment, then what does that say about the art? How do you spar then? I am somewhat confused by this statement. I also agree with you that the street and the ring are two different situations, however the ring is the safest place to test yourself at high levels of contact.

Why is there such a fuss over good Taiji.. and, yes, i distinguish between good Taiji and "new age dance".. it is not necessary to be a top-ranked professional fighter to defend yourself in most situations.. but it is necessary to have experience under pressure, and at my school we do that..

My sifu is 5th generation yang taiji practitioner, which would make me 6th I suppose, but this is not about lineage. He says that there are some good taiji fighters out there, and when sifu has demonstrated some things to me, he has definately tossed me around like a rag doll. Him being in his 50s and I am 24. He is a smaller chinese guy and he has no problems controlling me and throwing me around as if I have no skill at all. Both in tui sao and chi sao. I have seen some taiji that is ridiculous as well, just pick up a kung fu magazine and look at those master tai chi in 8 minutes a day adds for those videos.

Be well..

Still, IMHO, in the end no matter what you train all styles become both internal and external and can use both sides of the coin. There are aspects that may not be the same in the end, especially in training methods, but the combat concepts will be there. You won't always be able to yield to an attack. Sometimes it may be better to take the inititive and use force to take someone down when the opportunity presents itself.

The one major difference I see in internal vs external, is how the approach combat. Both styles have strikes, joint locks, kicks, etc etc. Basic fighting stuff. Where as internal arts are more about controlling the yin and yang energies, the external is more about brutally destroying the opponet. I am not saying internal arts cannot brutally destory their opponets, I am just saying the approach is different.

[Merryprankster]

Anyway, when it comes to Judo I do think the rules matter. You have an older guy vs a younger guy but it is a game of leverage and balance and the older guy is capitalizing on years of experience to unbalance the other.

All fighting is based on this. But, can that 58 year old Judo guy get that position (holding sleeve and jacket) on a young guy who is throwing bombs at him? I don't know. I've never seen it personally. I have seen my teacher, who's 64, handle punching from strangers coming in to see.

I don't think I'm making myself very clear. That old Judo guy might not be able to get that position if the other kid were throwing bombs - but that's not how he was trained.

If he WERE trained that way, then it wouldn't be an issue. You would have a old, tough son-of-a-*****, like your instructor, who can dish it out in that context.

Similarly, put your instructor in a gi, tell him no strikes, and as good as he is, he'll probably get beat under judo rules. This doesn't reduce his ability in any way at all.

My point is that the Judo guy can kick ass within his context, and your instructor can kick it in his. Both are old, yet both fall in to the old tough guy category despite their different arts.

Like I said, if the Judo guy were doing MMA or San Da all his life, he'd be a tough old MMA or San Da guy.

Since the "old tough guy" is something that crosses stylistic boundaries with great frequency, it would suggest to me that there is nothing about the "style" that promotes fighting longevity.

[red5angel]

Since the "old tough guy" is something that crosses stylistic boundaries with great frequency, it would suggest to me that there is nothing about the "style" that promotes fighting longevity.

I think it has more to do with genetics and a coninutously active life style. It's really not all that much a mystery, although I guess Qi sounds more exciting.

[SevenStar]

Anyway, when it comes to Judo I do think the rules matter. You have an older guy vs a younger guy but it is a game of leverage and balance and the older guy is capitalizing on years of experience to unbalance the other.

All fighting is based on this. But, can that 58 year old Judo guy get that position (holding sleeve and jacket) on a young guy who is throwing bombs at him? I don't know. I've never seen it personally. I have seen my teacher, who's 64, handle punching from strangers coming in to see.




I haven't looked at this thread in about a week, so I maybe taking this out of conxtext, but here goes. Age definitely matters here, I think. I was in a tournament last year, where I had to compete against a 40 something (late 40's from the looks of it, anyway - I'm just guessing, as he looked of an advanced age) black belt (I am only a 3rd degree brown) who has been doing judo for a while. I murdered him. His sense of balance was great, as were his attacks, but he couldn't attack as repetitiously as I could, and it ended up getting him thrown.

one of my judo coaches is pushing 80. He's a three time national champ, and is very good. But, he can't compete anymore, he can only train. he's a stubborn old coot, and a few years ago, he chased a robber out of his home, but in a competition against trained younger guys - he wouldn't last.

[Merryprankster]

7*

Without a doubt, age matters, but we both know old guys who can throwdown with many a young lad and come out on top!

The issue we were discussing is whether or not there is something in "internal" arts that somehow allows you to be bad ass at advanced age, compared to "other" arts.

Put simply, I don't think there is, Ray disagrees. :D

But, age matters overall - all other things being equal, age presents a definite disadvantage.

BTW, Ray, I'm sorry I can't make it up there this weekend. I might be coming up the following weekend though. (No Promises, but thought I'd share the possibility)

[SevenStar]

I don't think I'm making myself very clear. That old Judo guy might not be able to get that position if the other kid were throwing bombs - but that's not how he was trained.

If he WERE trained that way, then it wouldn't be an issue. You would have a old, tough son-of-a-*****, like your instructor, who can dish it out in that context.

Similarly, put your instructor in a gi, tell him no strikes, and as good as he is, he'll probably get beat under judo rules. This doesn't reduce his ability in any way at all.

My point is that the Judo guy can kick ass within his context, and your instructor can kick it in his. Both are old, yet both fall in to the old tough guy category despite their different arts.

Like I said, if the Judo guy were doing MMA or San Da all his life, he'd be a tough old MMA or San Da guy.

Since the "old tough guy" is something that crosses stylistic boundaries with great frequency, it would suggest to me that there is nothing about the "style" that promotes fighting longevity.

okay, I see now.

[Merryprankster]

Seven,

Since past posters and your signature indicate you have the right proportions to be a great ape, when you get old, will you be a silverback?

[Gangsterfist]

MP-

I think its all in the methodology of the training. External training does more strain on the body. Ever see master carter wong's knuckles? They are huge from all the calcium deposits that built up over the years of him doing some sort of external iron palm training. They are probably extremely hard too, and getting hit by them would probably hurt more than a regular fist.

However, that kind of conditioning is hard on the body and can cause problems later on in life. You will have arthritis and joint problems, you can develope brittle bones, so on and so forth. So, the internal arts offer similiar conditioning but its not as strainful on the human body. Which in return may be one of the reasons it takes longer to get results.

Xingyi and bagua are known for power generation. However, its not like every practitioner can get to that level, and its not an instant attribute from training. It takes years to get to those levels. Where external conditional (military style, weight lifting, etc) will yield faster results.

However, being a practitioner of both internal and external styles, I must say that both have merit. The physical conditioning is important, especially the cardio, b/c you never know when you may have to run for the hills. The internal aspect can take your attributes to a new level. You don't have to fully train internal to get them, some people are more internal just naturally. A simple differnce can be explained in the punch. External punches use force and muscle tension, along with body mechanics. When they hit they do lots of surface damage to the target. Internal punches come in relaxed and tense upon contact, they also penetrate the target and strike through it, causing little surface damage and more internal damage. Of course, lets not get carried away here with pancreas splitting strikes or whatever.

I still think in the end its almost the same. You are just controlling motion and energy.

[Merryprankster]

MP-

I think its all in the methodology of the training. External training does more strain on the body. Ever see master carter wong's knuckles? They are huge from all the calcium deposits that built up over the years of him doing some sort of external iron palm training. They are probably extremely hard too, and getting hit by them would probably hurt more than a regular fist.

However, that kind of conditioning is hard on the body and can cause problems later on in life. You will have arthritis and joint problems, you can develope brittle bones, so on and so forth. So, the internal arts offer similiar conditioning but its not as strainful on the human body. Which in return may be one of the reasons it takes longer to get results.

Xingyi and bagua are known for power generation. However, its not like every practitioner can get to that level, and its not an instant attribute from training. It takes years to get to those levels. Where external conditional (military style, weight lifting, etc) will yield faster results.

You can train "externally" without that sort of conditioning. If he chooses to deform himself, so be it. People have cited wrestling and boxing as "external," yet, I have no problems (beyond the nagging injuries of accidents). I wager that results in any art are direct products of the amount of focused practice you do. You can reach BJJ black belt very quickly if you apply yourself - but if you just put in the mat time, without a plan to succeed, well....


However, being a practitioner of both internal and external styles, I must say that both have merit. The physical conditioning is important, especially the cardio, b/c you never know when you may have to run for the hills. The internal aspect can take your attributes to a new level. You don't have to fully train internal to get them, some people are more internal just naturally. A simple differnce can be explained in the punch. External punches use force and muscle tension, along with body mechanics. When they hit they do lots of surface damage to the target. Internal punches come in relaxed and tense upon contact, they also penetrate the target and strike through it, causing little surface damage and more internal damage. Of course, lets not get carried away here with pancreas splitting strikes or whatever.

The problem that I have with this is that the "external" punchers are therefore doing it wrong. Boxers have "internal" punching mechanics by your definition.

A better truth is that good principles transcend stylistic boundaries. External and Internal are either nothing more than labels as Chris M has described, to denote relationship, or delusional fantasy to make people feel better about what they are doing.

I mean that in a nice way - it's all the same stuff is what I'm trying to say.

[Akhilleus]

I practice tai chi...but I notice that most tai chi guys emphasize how their art avoids using "strength against strength" but rather it uses technique to overcome and opponent, as if tai chi is the only art to do so! But, I've never heard of any martial art where technique and skill cannout be used (theoretically) to overcome a bigger and stronger opponent...I think the reason everyone thinks tai chi can be used for self-defense in old age (moreso than other arts) is because people of almost any age and physical ability can still practice the tai chi form, pushing hands, and breathing exercises....these things may be easier for them than say rolling with an opponent on the ground or hitting thai pads...

but tai chi guys still need to spar and practice their techniques against a resisting partner, and that, my friends, is no harder or easier on the body than rolling or hitting bags...so while tai chi can offer more health and recreation benefits to someone that is unable to spar than say BJJ or muay thai can, it cannot offer the self-defense abilities anymore than those other arts can, if the person is simply unable or unwilling to spar and work with a resisting opponent...

[Gangsterfist]

MP-

I never said boxers were external punches. Some people just can't fully relax either, or it takes them years and years of practice to train their bodies to fully relax due to bad habbits or their job or whatever.

Like I said in the end you get the same results, its just different paths from point a to point b. Internal IMHO, takes longer because its a slower process, where as external probably yields faster results.

There are other aspects to internal vs external, like using force against force and that type of thing. So there are also some theoretical and conceptual differences.

[SevenStar]

Ray,

I've gotta ask where Judo, BJJ, wrestling are on the map then, because I know some old guys that can tool people, and I know I've beaten guys that are much larger and stronger than me.

Perhaps the reality is that maybe good is good, and if you're good enough, you'll probably win... but all other things being equal, age matters?

Just something to consider.

My problem is the idea that you are studying something and attributing success in later years to that something. Perhaps it's just the fact of being very good.



FWIW, they don't start out holding each other. They might on a gentleman's agreement or something, but gripfighting is a subdiscipline in Judo that is almost as important than the throws themselves...in fact, at high levels, I would say that what distinguishes many of the world class from the merely great is their gripfighting.

two good posts.

[Merryprankster]

Gangster,

I disagree. There is training that relies on good principles, and there is training that relies on....something else.

Some principles are emphasized more than others, from art to art. We call that style. But there is nothing fundamentally different about their movements or their goals or use of the body.

[rogue]

We call that style. But there is nothing fundamentally different about their movements or their goals or use of the body.

It's obvious that you've never seen Wing Chun. ;)

[Gangsterfist]

MP-

By something else, what do you mean. I get you are implying bullshiat here but its hard to tell since I don't know you personally.

I think in the end there is no internal or external combat, its all about controlling motion and energy. I think that there are internal and external training methods, that differ greatly. Concepts and theroies are different. An external style might strike an incoming punch on the forearm to block it. An internal style would just redirect it. Same results with different concepts.


It's obvious that you've never seen Wing Chun.

Thats that michelle yeoh(sp?) movie right? :eek: :cool:

[SevenStar]

I think its all in the methodology of the training. External training does more strain on the body. Ever see master carter wong's knuckles? They are huge from all the calcium deposits that built up over the years of him doing some sort of external iron palm training. They are probably extremely hard too, and getting hit by them would probably hurt more than a regular fist.

However, that kind of conditioning is hard on the body and can cause problems later on in life. You will have arthritis and joint problems, you can develope brittle bones, so on and so forth. So, the internal arts offer similiar conditioning but its not as strainful on the human body. Which in return may be one of the reasons it takes longer to get results.

that kind of conditioning is not in any way necessary. People like him and like pan qing fu knew what the result of that training would be when they did it... that's what happens when you punch rocks. Boxers, for example, don't train that way. They generally wear both wraps and gloves to protect their hands - very safe, yet at the same time, very external. And as merry already pointed out, his boxing coach was 60+. The 78 year old judo coach I referred to didn't even begin training until he was 30.

Xingyi and bagua are known for power generation. However, its not like every practitioner can get to that level, and its not an instant attribute from training. It takes years to get to those levels. Where external conditional (military style, weight lifting, etc) will yield faster results.

body mechanics are very much a part of external training as well.

A simple differnce can be explained in the punch. External punches use force and muscle tension, along with body mechanics.

I've only trained in external styles, and I've never been taught to punch this way... you tense on impact, as you stated below.

When they hit they do lots of surface damage to the target. Internal punches come in relaxed and tense upon contact, they also penetrate the target and strike through it, causing little surface damage and more internal damage. Of course, lets not get carried away here with pancreas splitting strikes or whatever.

..........

[SevenStar]

MP-

By something else, what do you mean. I get you are implying bullshiat here but its hard to tell since I don't know you personally.

I think in the end there is no internal or external combat, its all about controlling motion and energy. I think that there are internal and external training methods, that differ greatly. Concepts and theroies are different. An external style might strike an incoming punch on the forearm to block it. An internal style would just redirect it. Same results with different concepts.


Not entirely. muay thai teaches you to redirect as well. there is redirecting, borrowing and yielding. judo also teaches these things. So does bjj. And wrestling...

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah I don't advocate that type of hard conditioning, just using it as an example. Ever see those thai boxers with the notches on their shins?

I train in an external style now also, and they have a one body, one mind concept which is body mechanics.

I am saying that internal and external are pretty much the same combat wise they just use different methods and concepts, but sometimes they use the same things like punches, kicks, grabs, throws, etc.

I am not saying one is better over the other, I am just saying internal arts are for some people and external are for others. They are just different.

[Gangsterfist]

7-

I know, I was just using that as an example. Everything has internal and external concepts and techs. That was my whole point. Some systems stress more external over internal or vice versa.

The differences are usally theoretical and conceptual. Training methods differ too. Try standing meditation for 15 to 30 min, and you get a different feeling from doing punches or kicks or whatever. You can gain different attributes from these things too.

[SevenStar]

Seven,

Since past posters and your signature indicate you have the right proportions to be a great ape, when you get old, will you be a silverback?


:D

..........

[SevenStar]

Yeah I don't advocate that type of hard conditioning, just using it as an example. Ever see those thai boxers with the notches on their shins?



that may be more due to fighting than conditioning. The only thing I kick are pads and bags. But, when you spar, fight, etc. you will kick shins, elbows, etc. stress fractures and such will happen as a result - it's fairly minor though. I had one last year. I don't have any real visible notches, but if I run my hand down my shin, I feel them.

[fa_jing]

"Internal punches come in relaxed and tense upon contact"

That's how I was taught to punch and it was based on Western Boxing. I believe the same is taught in Karate and TKD.

[FatherDog]

Greetings..

FatherDog: Okay, i will break it down for you.. the implication of using techniques at full effectiveness is that unless you do many of the externalists effect a counter and imply the ineffectiveness of the technique that wasn't fully executed.. too often i lock someone up, demonstrate a decisive technique without enforcing the "decisive" part, only to have them work out of the lock and point to the "ineffectiveness" of it.. when, if the technique was applied at full-force, there would be nothing further to consider.. it's the "mercy factor", if i have your wrist locked and compromised and you struggle against or wriggle free,

If someone is able to wriggle free, your locking technique sucks. Period. Control the body and they won't be able to escape, even if you are applying the lock incredibly slowly.

Any grappling technique I do, I can lock them up and stop without fully executing the technique, and they won't be able to effectively "struggle against" or "wriggle free". This is what separates high percentage grappling techniques from low percentage ones.

Basically, what you are saying here is that tai chi joint locks are poor grappling technique.

[PangQuan]

"Internal punches come in relaxed and tense upon contact"

That's how I was taught to punch and it was based on Western Boxing. I believe the same is taught in Karate and TKD.

Thats just it, that is one way of punching. I dont study internal never have, deffinately will. But I was told to punch like that in some instances, but not always. Case by case. I study Shaolin methods, longfist, and redfist.

ever hear of yin/yang? good/evil? duality. To exist there is a combination of dualities present within everything that has reality. Thus internal arts must encompass external aspects, while at the same time external arts must encompass internal aspects. One cannot exist without the other. It is an impossible analogy.

[Ray Pina]

Merry / Seven,

Please understand this, I agree with you that an external stylist can still mess people up in an advanced age. My sensei's sensei, when I was a kid, would go up a ladder (5 or 6 feet) and push it away only to land on his knuckles on a concrete floor .... total badd a$$.

But, getting back to Judo, the whole point we are talking about is THE WAY THE STYLE IS TRAINED. What is is about Judo that has me looking for a 64 year old who can start seperated, allow full striking and kicking, and still play with the youngster? If he can only play without striking, though it is impressive and those skills can be used in fighting, it lacks something for me .... this also lends itself to the answer to the question Red asked.

How was my teacher trained that at 64 he can still play with the youngster and allow full punching and kicking .... this is the point.

Please Red, don't bring up size, strenght or speed when talking about a 64 year old Chinese man who is 5'6 or 5'7 and 150 lbs.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

FatherDog:
Any grappling technique I do, I can lock them up and stop without fully executing the technique, and they won't be able to effectively "struggle against" or "wriggle free". Who are you training with, Girl Scouts? If you can't tap me out in less than a second with a lock i'll reverse it..
Basically, what you are saying here is that tai chi joint locks are poor grappling technique. LOL, no.. it appears that i'm saying that i train with a high caliber of fighters that can and will reverse a technique if you don't take them very near the breaking point very quickly.. have you never encountered good Taiji? No, it appears not.. too bad, you would have more respect if you had..

Be well..

[red5angel]

Please Red, don't bring up size, strenght or speed when talking about a 64 year old Chinese man who is 5'6 or 5'7 and 150 lbs.

Ray, I hate to tell you this but Superman is a fiction.

[Ray Pina]

I'll straighten you out though:

Red, I'm losing the desire to even adress you because there's good points being made by Seven* and Merry -- fighters I respect -- and here you are some internet tool with a lot to say but absolutely nothing to back it up with in terms of actual real dedicated training and lets not even mention usage. (you're the people ruining TMA)

Do you want another opportuninty to straighten me out? I'm sure I can arrange another trip out by you because we do business with someone there .... maybe you can paint all your friend's fences or whatever before hand.

I'll tell you this though, no BS. I come out there I'm going to beat you good and I'm going to film it. I just bought a nice iBook and an compiling my footage .... I'll post some next week so you can choke on your words.

I feel great lately about what I'm doing because I'm testing it and liking the results. Does this mean I've found some secret? No. Hell, I got to fight a huge guy this Sun. and I'm putting myself into a frame of mind to get the job done but am well aware that I can take a beating too.

[Gangsterfist]

FD-

Even though once a joint lock is fully in place it is not impossible to get out of it. There are no such things as unstoppable manuvers. I will say that there is an optimal point to execute your anti-grappling technique, and there is also a point where you will have to do something drastic to get out of the given situation.

Even if you are face down in an arm bar there is a way out.

[red5angel]

Raymond, I'm losing the stomach to read your posts because here you are talking your **** up like you got the secrets and then backing down at just about every oppurtunity you can unless it's absolutely setup on your terms. I'm just calling your bullsh!t like I see it.


(you're the people ruining TMA)


Actually, the irony here is that I say the same thing about you QI believing fukkers. You want your magical kungfu carpet ride so you buy into that garbage some of these guys are telling you. You can't fukking explain it because you know there isn't a fukking difference Raymond.


Do you want another opportuninty to straighten me out? I'm sure I can arrange another trip out by you because we do business with someone there .... maybe you can paint all your friend's fences or whatever before hand.


There you go again, shooting off your tough guy mouth. We've fukking been over this before dumb@ss, and I've told you you come back out and I'll arrange it. I'm not paying your 500$ dollars though I'm not interested in the money. I'm interested in seeing you man up for a change instead of talking crap and setting the rules for yourself.



I come out there I'm going to beat you good and I'm going to film it. I just bought a nice iBook and an compiling my footage .... I'll post some next week so you can choke on your words.


Blah blah blah, yeah I get it, you're an angry midget on the prowl. You got all the secret kungfu techniqeuse to beat me real good dontcha. Can't explain em, but you sure can use em right? :rolleyes:


and I'm putting myself into a frame of mind to get the job done but am well aware that I can take a beating too.


Yeah, I know you keep saying it. And saying it and saying it and saying it. As a matter of fact you can't shut the fukk up about it and that's what really bites my @ss the most. you want to take cheap shots at people who don't think like you do but you're more then happy to go spouting off about how you got it and wnat to bring it. If you're the tough guy you really think you are stop FUKKING BACKING DOWN WHEN YOU GET THE CHANCE. No more excuses Raymond. you want to fight, fight, if you can adapt adapt, if the rules bother you, you can't adapt and you've already failed in your goal.

[Ray Pina]

FD-
I will say that there is an optimal point to execute your anti-grappling technique, and there is also a point where you will have to do something drastic to get out of the given situation..

This is what I'm learning. That against a good ground guy there is that one point you have to fight like hell, like your limbs depend on it ... even if you remain relaxed while doing it. But that crucial battle.

These (you) ground guys are so skilled at what they (you) do it's rediculous. I had this guys head real good and before I know it I'm getting triangle choked .... I'm like, "what the hell?"

[Gangsterfist]

Thats just it, that is one way of punching. I dont study internal never have, deffinately will. But I was told to punch like that in some instances, but not always. Case by case. I study Shaolin methods, longfist, and redfist.

ever hear of yin/yang? good/evil? duality. To exist there is a combination of dualities present within everything that has reality. Thus internal arts must encompass external aspects, while at the same time external arts must encompass internal aspects. One cannot exist without the other. It is an impossible analogy.

Nice post, I wish I could have said that like 8 posts ago, then my point would have been more clear. This is definately true, and especially to taiji since it runs on strict yin/yang principles.

Like I said in the end there is no internal and there is no external, its all the same.

[Gangsterfist]

red-

Ok on a serious level, when you trained internal did you ever do standing meditation or qigong? Have you ever felt your meridians or felt the magnetic field in your body? I know it sounds crazy, and trust me, I am somewhat of a skeptic when it comes to this kind of stuff. Just because Qi is not tangeable does not mean it does not exist. However, I could feel these things in my body. I could feel my meridians and the blood flowing through them. Is it qi? I am honestly not sure, but I know there is something there.

If its so mythical and a bunch of crap like you say, why do lots of people, including monks, still train internal arts like this. Like taoist and buddhist qigong? Is it because its a tradition? Or helps you become enlightened? Or is it for overall well being?

The debate and argument of qi is along the same lines of if there is a god or not. You cannot prove it or disprove it with our current technology and science. In the future there may be ways to prove/disprove it.

[FatherDog]

Greetings..

FatherDog: Who are you training with, Girl Scouts? If you can't tap me out in less than a second with a lock i'll reverse it..


Yeah, good luck with that, chief. I guess the browns and purples I train with are just amateurs at jointlocks.



LOL, no.. it appears that i'm saying that i train with a high caliber of fighters that can and will reverse a technique if you don't take them very near the breaking point very quickly..


Because your techniques suck, apparently.


have you never encountered good Taiji? No, it appears not.. too bad, you would have more respect if you had..

I have plenty of respect for Taiji; Shooter's gym has demonstrated that it works in competition.

I have no respect for your brand of taiji's grappling, because the locks you are describing are crap. If you have to take a lock to the breaking point in less than a second to avoid getting it reversed, your technique is poor. Period.

[red5angel]

gangsterfist, I'll lay out for you what I did for my internal training as best I can remember it.

I started learning the Taichi 72 form set. It was seventy something, and it was supposed to be the original Chen form. I'd do this about 10 times in the morning then 10 times in the evening.

I had several Dantien exercises involving a large bowling ball or Medicine ball. Pushing them out away from me using my dantien, or propelling them into the air.

I learned a taichi spear form for power projection and precision.

A standing meditation I did once a day for about 30-40 minutes. There was a book I was pointed to that had it all in there, I just can't remember the name, it's possible it was "Warriors of Stillness". there were other exercises I was doing from that book as well.

I was instructed not to lift weights as that caused Qi blockages.

I could run.

I did my wingchun forms which my instructor felt were done slowly, were a good form of feeding energy and standing post type energy.

Some of the exercises were taking from a Fu style taichi? instructor who lives somewhere near Seattle.

I did most of these things 6-7 days a week to some degree or another.


My muscle mass softened and melted away. I gained about 15 lbs over the course of the year, and while I felt I was gaining some control over my joints and overall body movement nothing showed me that I couldn't get what I was getting, and more, from more so called external styles of training.

Right now I'm learning capoeira and exercising with weights, and other then some crud this past winter, haven't been sick. I feel better and have more energy.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..



I have no respect for your brand of taiji's grappling, because the locks you are describing are crap. If you have to take a lock to the breaking point in less than a second to avoid getting it reversed, your technique is poor. Period. You simply have no respect, period. Blanket statements regarding someone's skills or style without the experience to back it up is weak-minded hot air.. intended to antagonize.. and, yeah, if all you play with is "browns and purples", you're still in kindergarten..

Be well..

[Merryprankster]

lacks something for me

Ray. I understand this. But again, this is contextual and doesn't go the ability of the oldfugger to execute what they know in the context they know it.

If your master had fallen in love with Judo, he'd be a tough old Judo guy! But he's not. He's a tough old...something else guy.

Gangsterfist, I disagree with you that the internal/external distinction has anything to do with principles. This is a false distinction, IMO. Good principles are good principles, and regardless of art, you are going to rely on those principles.

Taichibob,

The Brown and Purple Belts of BJJ are a little different than the Brown belts and Purple belts of other arts. Fatherdog is hardly in kindgergarten. Unlike many styles, BJJ does not view Black Belt as understanding the basics and ready to learn. Black Belt, while hardly the end of the pursuit of knowledge, represents a phenomenal amount of work.

Anecdotally, you know how many people bail from an art after black belt? In BJJ, this happens at Blue belt. It takes many people the same amount of time to reach blue belt as it would to get black belt in even good schools of several arts.

They reach a level of reasonable proficiency at the second belt rank, and you never see them again. My division at the Pan-Am's this year had 17 people (purple belt). The Blue belt division of the same weight had nearly 60 competitors. It is not uncommon to have over 80 in some of the lighter classes.

You might disagree with his POV, but a brown or purple is typically somebody who has passed beyond the mere level of proficiency, has demonstrated more than simple competence, and is moving towards expert.

[Gangsterfist]

gangsterfist, I'll lay out for you what I did for my internal training as best I can remember it.

I started learning the Taichi 72 form set. It was seventy something, and it was supposed to be the original Chen form. I'd do this about 10 times in the morning then 10 times in the evening.
20 times a day is pretty good training, I don't do a single form 20 times a day. I might do all the forms I know at least once each, and then maybe work on certains of some forms I think I need working on. However, and mind you I am not master, infact I am very novice when it comes to qigong, my sifu has told me there is more powerful qigong in the SLT, over the taiji short form. We train yang style. Like I said, I am a beginer in qigong definately. I have a coupel of yang jwing ming books on qigong

I had several Dantien exercises involving a large bowling ball or Medicine ball. Pushing them out away from me using my dantien, or propelling them into the air.
Strange, I have never used any kind of weighted ball for exercise in taiji. Thats a new one to me, but I am sure there are 1,000s of training methods when it comes to taiji

I learned a taichi spear form for power projection and precision.
Same here, except I learned sword instead.

A standing meditation I did once a day for about 30-40 minutes. There was a book I was pointed to that had it all in there, I just can't remember the name, it's possible it was "Warriors of Stillness". there were other exercises I was doing from that book as well.
Cool, did you feel anything they talked about in the books or that your instructor would talk about?

I was instructed not to lift weights as that caused Qi blockages.

I could run.
My sifu says that certain work outs can cause bad habbits, but does not say you cannot do them. I for one, do all body weight exercises, plus a few minor free weight exercises, but mostly body weight, and cardio of course

I did my wingchun forms which my instructor felt were done slowly, were a good form of feeding energy and standing post type energy.

In the first form, the SLT has lots of knowledge to be learned. Its definately a process and over the years training it has changed my outlook many times. Its progressive training, and I train all my forms really slow for muscle memory. Sometimes I practice them fast, with energy release too, but for the most part I am always refining the movements.

Some of the exercises were taking from a Fu style taichi? instructor who lives somewhere near Seattle.

I did most of these things 6-7 days a week to some degree or another.


My muscle mass softened and melted away. I gained about 15 lbs over the course of the year, and while I felt I was gaining some control over my joints and overall body movement nothing showed me that I couldn't get what I was getting, and more, from more so called external styles of training.

Right now I'm learning capoeira and exercising with weights, and other then some crud this past winter, haven't been sick. I feel better and have more energy.

Well, maybe taiji and wing chun were just not for you. They are not for everyone. I think you may mean Wu Taiji over Fu taiji, but I could be wrong. You gotta find balance in your training, and how to balance it is up to you. I do not do really heavy work outs except for maybe 1 day per a week. The rest of the time is spent doing light work outs, refinement of forms etc., stretching. However, that one day a week I push myself pretty hard. I want to maintain certain degrees of flexibility and relaxation with my gung fu, which is why I train the way I do. I am still trying to find the best way to do it as well, so my regiment may change.

[Gangsterfist]

MP wrote:


Gangsterfist, I disagree with you that the internal/external distinction has anything to do with principles. This is a false distinction, IMO. Good principles are good principles, and regardless of art, you are going to rely on those principles.


Thats cool bro we can agree to disagree. It is of my opinion that good principles are good principles reguardless, but you can categorize them as internal or external based on the concepts.

[Ray Pina]

Yea, BJJ blue belts are pretty ****ed skilled .... that stupid art has thrown off the entire belt scale. :eek:

FatherDog, I can also apreciate what you're saying .... to control a limb and have such position and leverage that you can subtle control the pressure and push it to the point where the guy says uncle. Unfortunately I only know a few arm bars and ankle locks, a choke or two.

I've been playing with getting on top and using a knee to pin and start the barage. For me, it's about getting familiar enough to sabatoge the other guy so I can do what I want. But it's amazing how good everyone's gotten on the ground. When I was a kid, this was never an issue.

[red5angel]

MP wrote:



Thats cool bro we can agree to disagree. It is of my opinion that good principles are good principles reguardless, but you can categorize them as internal or external based on the concepts.

I'm not sure but I think you agree with MP g-fist, or are prinicples and concepts the same thing?

[Gangsterfist]

prin·ci·ple ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prns-pl)
n.

1. A basic truth, law, or assumption: the principles of democracy.
2.
1. A rule or standard, especially of good behavior: a man of principle.
2. The collectivity of moral or ethical standards or judgments: a decision based on principle rather than expediency.
3. A fixed or predetermined policy or mode of action.
4. A basic or essential quality or element determining intrinsic nature or characteristic behavior: the principle of self-preservation.
5. A rule or law concerning the functioning of natural phenomena or mechanical processes: the principle of jet propulsion.
6. Chemistry. One of the elements that compose a substance, especially one that gives some special quality or effect.

con·cept ( P ) Pronunciation Key (knspt)
n.

1. A general idea derived or inferred from specific instances or occurrences.
2. Something formed in the mind; a thought or notion. See Synonyms at idea.
3. A scheme; a plan: “began searching for an agency to handle a new restaurant concept” (ADWEEK).

A principle is a law or a basic truth. The fastest way between two points is a straight line, is a principle. Concepts can be based off of personal experience and are more subject to interpretation.

My main point is there is external in internal and internal in external. The methods you train really dictate what type of style it is. In the end none of this stuff matters anyways. Its all about your attributes, and how you can apply them. I have learned external, internal, and nuetral arts, and they all have similiarities and they all have differences. Usually its the concepts that are different. In my karate I took, we would strike incoming punches with our forearms to block. use force against force. In taiji, I can yield and roll back, something my karate didn't practice. My wing chun I can be nuetral and just remain and my opponet will be redirected if they cannot beat my structure, remain 50/50 all that jazz.

Man, all this chatting makes want to go train right now, I am talking too much theory today. Anyways, some of this has been a good conversation. I have worked out with judo guys and wrestlers, so my ground game isn't horrible, but it definately needs working on for sure. So its nice to hear what some of them have to say.

So, really all of my training is just giving me attributes to accomplish the same goal in different ways. If you do internal, try practicing external every once in a while, see how it feels, gain some attributes, and vice versa.

[FatherDog]

Greetings..


You simply have no respect, period. Blanket statements regarding someone's skills or style without the experience to back it up is weak-minded hot air.. intended to antagonize..


I'm not making blanket statements. I'm making a very specific statement regarding your style's grappling, based on the information you have presented. If someone said that you should fold your fingers over your thumb to make a fist, punch with your wrist bent, and move only your arm, I would say that their style's striking technique is poor, and I doubt anyone here would disagree with me. If you say that your locking techniques must be taken to the breaking point in less than a second or the opponent will reverse you, then I will say that your style's locking technique is poor, and the only people disagreeing with me will be those with a fundamental lack of understanding of grappling.



and, yeah, if all you play with is "browns and purples", you're still in kindergarten..

This statement simply demonstrates your complete ignorance of what is involved in gaining rank in BJJ.

[red5angel]

by the way G-fist, the bowling/bedicine ball thing is just a modern take on the taichiball thing if you're familiar with that? Apparently they were originally brass or stone. In this case it's cheaper just to go purchase an 18 pound bowling ball a garage sale or something.

[Christopher M]

FWIW, I'm an internalist and I agree completely with FatherDog's thoughts on opponent control. Moreover, the perspective he describes is the one I associate with good internal technique. The taiji practitioner's emphasis on training methods like push hands rather than emphasizing single technique practice should cultivate these skills of opponent control.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I think we may working from basic misconceptions.. First, i am not exclusively internal, though it it is my current focus.. i have a reasonable depth of experience in external arts, and i find my training valuable and effective.. my current focus on internal arts has enhanced and improved my external effectiveness.. Second, i have never questioned or remarked negatively regarding anyone's martial skills without having direct knowledge of that person's abilities.. (social skills are another matter)..
If you say that your locking techniques must be taken to the breaking point in less than a second or the opponent will reverse you, then I will say that your style's locking technique is poor Is it possible that you, having no knowledge of my school or training methods, might not have sufficient data to make such a judgment? i've got some very talented students, there are also some other local schools that are well disciplined and well trained.. we drill intercepts and locks at combat speed and intensity, we drill reversals similarly.. we start from "locked" positions (on our feet and on the ground) and work out escapes and reversals.. this is not "one move magic", it's combat Qinna that flows from technique to technique.. that a regular opponent might be controlled more easily was not the point of my post, it was that the people i train with are sufficiently skilled that it requires a higher level of intensity to maintain effectiveness.. rather than point to "Because your techniques suck, apparently", it points to a higher level of skill in a particular group.. The response to my statement could just as easily point to "a fundamental lack of understanding of" someone else's training methods.

I take no issue with BJJ or its ranking system, the "kindergarten" remark was, admittedly, an emotional response.. i simply grow weary of people that can't be civil or show simple common respect.. to an outsider this looks like school-yard BS and shows CMA in a poor light.. I will not apologize about being passionate about the arts i favor, but i do for letting my emotions spur a negative response.. i try to remain civil and i try to share insights, if someone disagrees respectfully we have dialogue, otherwise we degrade the arts..

Be well..

[FatherDog]

Is it possible that you, having no knowledge of my school or training methods, might not have sufficient data to make such a judgment?

When you said that your locking techniques needed to be taken to the breaking point in less than a second or they'd be reversed, I got all the data I needed. That's poor technique, for the reasons I've already outlined.



i've got some very talented students, there are also some other local schools that are well disciplined and well trained.. we drill intercepts and locks at combat speed and intensity, we drill reversals similarly.. we start from "locked" positions (on our feet and on the ground) and work out escapes and reversals..


We have browns and purples. Many of our students have first, second and third place finishes in the intermediate and advanced divisions of Grappler's Quest and NAGA (the two largest submission grappling tournaments in the world). We have champion wrestlers, pro fighters, and semi-professional powerlifters. We practice everything at combat speed and intensity - and once we've established control on a lock, we can keep the opponent pinned and extend the lock slowly, and do so without being reversed, because that is good technique. Period.



I take no issue with BJJ or its ranking system, the "kindergarten" remark was, admittedly, an emotional response.. i simply grow weary of people that can't be civil or show simple common respect.. to an outsider this looks like school-yard BS and shows CMA in a poor light.. I will not apologize about being passionate about the arts i favor, but i do for letting my emotions spur a negative response.. i try to remain civil and i try to share insights, if someone disagrees respectfully we have dialogue, otherwise we degrade the arts..

Be well..

Civility and respect is all very well and good, but when someone is describing technique that is clearly wrong and poor, I'm going to describe it as such. There's too much "Everyone is special" relativistic bull**** being peddled under the guise of civility and wu de. It is far more respectful to explain to someone that what they are doing is wrong and will eventually get them hurt when they try it on someone who is doing what is right, then let them continue to practice poor technique because you fear being viewed as "impolite".

[Gangsterfist]

by the way G-fist, the bowling/bedicine ball thing is just a modern take on the taichiball thing if you're familiar with that? Apparently they were originally brass or stone. In this case it's cheaper just to go purchase an 18 pound bowling ball a garage sale or something.

Yeah okay I am familiar with it, but I never really used it. My sifu focuses more on wing chun on conditioning and combat, and taiji more for wisdom and knowledge. We have a smaller rubber kick ball in class that some people use, however, I never use it.

[red5angel]

and once we've established control on a lock, we can keep the opponent pinned and extend the lock slowly, and do so without being reversed, because that is good technique.

I think I'm missing something here. If you can establish control on a lock, and keep it, and control it so well that you can apply it slowly without worrying about your opponent reversing it, then are you saying these locks are irreversible? Maybe it's context I need to understand what you're trying to say here.

[Merryprankster]

Red, there comes a point in a lock where it is irreversible.

More importantly, what FatherDog is getting at is that joint locks that are applied without control of the opponents movement are poorly done. If somebody is saying "but you have to do it fast for it to really work," then that says "You don't have control." You MIGHT still get it, but you might knock somebody out by throwing a wild haymaker with bad timing. That doesn't make it a good idea, because the consequences of missing are not so hot.

If there are too many degrees of freedom of movement, the lock doesn't work. Joint locks are about isolation. The only way to isolate a limb is to control the rest of you.

If I am in side control trying to get a bent arm lock, then what allows me to get the bent arm lock is being in side control....NOT the rapidity of my bent arm lock technique. If I can keep you pinned that way, eventually, I'm going to get something on you.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


When you said that your locking techniques needed to be taken to the breaking point in less than a second or they'd be reversed, I got all the data I needed. That's poor technique, for the reasons I've already outlined. You have nothing but an opinion, period. No direct experience or personal knowledge of myself or my training pals.. the words and meanings elude your grasp due to you own inflated need to be right.. and an understandable passion for your own art..
and once we've established control on a lock, we can keep the opponent pinned and extend the lock slowly, and do so without being reversed, because that is good technique. Period. That is rebuttable.. and, by my experience, not believable.. period.
Civility and respect is all very well and good, but when someone is describing technique that is clearly wrong and poor, I'm going to describe it as such. Again, you assume much more than you know.. get lazy or slow with me or some of my students and you will be tapping sooner than you think.. Lack of civility, agressive attitudes or just plain bully tactics do not add validity to anyone's opinions.. more likely they alienate the observer(s) and weaken whatever value the message may have had..
It is far more respectful to explain to someone that what they are doing is wrong and will eventually get them hurt I could respect that IF you had any knowledge of the people you refer to and could demonstrate the deficiency.. but, such is not the case..

Be well..

[David Jamieson]

as the dictionary points out and I'll give the short form.

principle= known truth based on proof.

concept = something that is surmised with no hard evidence of it's truth.

In my opinion, principles override, supercede and choke out concepts.
Not that all concepts are bad, but they are mere conjecture when it gets right down to it.

[red5angel]

MP - ok I sort of figured that was what FD was talking about but just wanted some clarification. Being a complete novice to the grappling thing it sometimes seems like the other guy has complete control from the get go :(

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah once your arm is fully locked out in an arm bar, the next step is it being hyper extended or broken. However, I would not go as far to say its not irreversible, I would just say its nearly impossible to reverse. I have met some people who could get out of lots of stuff, and have well attributes of flexibility.

IME, chin na or grappling situations present themselves in fights or sparring. You can go for it, via a take down or entry tech, but usually these joint locks, limb strikes, etc present themselves. I have never studied BJJ, but I assume thats why they roll. To feel out the situation and to first establish control before they execute a technique.

Just like taiji foot work establishes the control first, then goes with the strike or the chin na or whatever. Many MAs use similiar ideas of establishing control before executing a technique and really good techniques (and good practitioners) will do this in one motion, so it gives very little time to react to the situation.

I do not formally train ground fighting, but I definately practice it. We have done some pretty hard core grappling and ground fighting drills and exercises in class. I know the basics, and I watch MMA stuff on TV to see what else is out there. I read posts from grapplers on the forum, and read some of the gracies and others books. However, I hold no rank in any grappling system. I took judo for a year when I was a kid, but I don't even try to count that.

IME, if a technique is there, and its executed with control, it should leave a very small window of opportunity for your opponet to get out of it. I have gotten seniors in what I thought was a pretty hard core standing arm bar, and when I try to drive them to the ground with it, they somehow reversed it, and I ended up getting my a$$ handed to me. Which means I probably never established control, and my tech was sloppy, and they are my seniors, so they know more than me.

[FatherDog]

Greetings..
You have nothing but an opinion, period. No direct experience or personal knowledge of myself or my training pals..


If, as I noted before, someone says that in their art the fist is made with the thumb inside the fingers, punches are made with the wrist bent and only moving the arm, I don't need direct experience or personal knowledge of them or their "training pals" to say that their art has poor striking technique.

Similarly, given your description, I don't need direct experience to say that your locking technique is poor.


That is rebuttable.. and, by my experience, not believable.. period.

And this is because your experience is with sub-par grappling. Period.


I could respect that IF you had any knowledge of the people you refer to and could demonstrate the deficiency.. but, such is not the case..

The fact that your locks are only effective if they're taken to the breaking point in less than a second is the deficiency. I don't need to demonstrate it; you've already admitted it. Your locking technique is sub-par. Period.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

FatherDog: With all those "periods", i'm guessing you're just PMSin'.. 'cause there's no rational thought process involved here.. you're all hot and bothered over something you know nothing about, specifically, me and my students/training partners.. But, i'm wasting time and energy.. i am reminded of the old saying "you can lead a closed mind to knowledge, but you can't make it think".. with that i will leave you with your fantasies of superiority...

Be well..

[red5angel]

Greetings..

FatherDog: With all those "periods", i'm guessing you're just PMSin'.. 'cause there's no rational thought process involved here.. you're all hot and bothered over something you know nothing about, specifically, me and my students/training partners.. But, i'm wasting time and energy.. i am reminded of the old saying "you can lead a closed mind to knowledge, but you can't make it think".. with that i will leave you with your fantasies of superiority...

Be well..


here's what I love about the internet. Fatherdog is actually making a pretty rational case for himself. What he has to say makes sense. Taichibobs' ego won't let him attempt to understand or accept that fatherdog could potentially be right, since that would be admitting that atleast some of the training he has done would be invalidated. Instead he pretty much starts off with and continues to attack FD on an emotional basis instead of trying to address the points logically.
To be fair to bob, he presented a few arguments which werent' completely emotionally reaction, but I'm afraid FD has remained consistant and is actually make quite a bit of sense.
So basically, you can try to argue a rational point of view but some people refuse to be engaged in that sort of thing. Instead they'd rather it turn into a shouting match because they are not able to reply or refute the other persons claims.

[PangQuan]

As an observer of this thread for the past couple of pages I have noticed one thing.

Each person is skilled in their own right. Each person is studying with different methods. Each person has methods that do work. Each person describes things differently and have differnt levels of articulation when dealing with written words. Each person interperates written words differently.

This disputation between the "im right and your wrong" is futile. It will not lead either party along the path of understanding each other.

[red5angel]

As an observer of this thread for the past couple of pages I have noticed one thing.

Each person is skilled in their own right. Each person is studying with different methods. Each person has methods that do work. Each person describes things differently and have differnt levels of articulation when dealing with written words. Each person interperates written words differently.

This disputation between the "im right and your wrong" is futile. It will not lead either party along the path of understanding each other.

I disgaree. More then a few people are under the impression that all things are equal and that just isn't true. There are some arts that do things differently and better then others.

Take the current subject grappling/chin na. I've seen a lot of chinese martial artists attempt to address grappling through chin na, however most of it is improbably hard to pull off and pretty unefficient. Same with some other traditional styles. What FD points out about tiachibobs statement is true, especially from the point of inefficiency. There are a lot of moves or techniques that require a great deal of speed to pull off. Why would you want to use those techniques if you could use something that might be slower but is more solidly capable of getting the job done?
If I can wrap a guy up and submit him at my liesure, why would I bother to learn something thet requires his co-operation and my greater speed?

[PangQuan]

I did not say that both sides are equally skilled, just that they are skilled.

There is a time and place for everything. The techniques bob describe have a place. The techniques that FD describe have a place. One may have more places than another but that is no reason to denounce ones methods as irrelevent. You merely have to step outside of the box, examine what is in there, and then find out when and how it is valuable. You cannot eat soup with chopsticks, and you would not want to eat noodles with a spoon.

Using chopstick on soup is wrong, but that does not mean that a chopsticks are useless in all occasions.

[red5angel]

I did not say that both sides are equally skilled, just that they are skilled.

There is a time and place for everything. The techniques bob describe have a place. The techniques that FD describe have a place. One may have more places than another but that is no reason to denounce ones methods as irrelevent. You merely have to step outside of the box, examine what is in there, and then find out when and how it is valuable. You cannot eat soup with chopsticks, and you would not want to eat noodles with a spoon.

Using chopstick on soup is wrong, but that does not mean that a chopsticks are useless in all occasions.


I'm still not sure I agree. While you might come up with a very specific situation where a lower percentage technique can be pulled off better, my guess is that higher percentage techniques will always be more capable of dealing with any situation that comes up.

A while back TMA guys were getting crushed by MMA guys. The reason for that was because while the TMA guys continued to study complex or inefficient ways of doing things (not completely) MMA took a lot of it and simplified it. They took the idea that you learn a few good techniques and practice them ten thousand times instead of 1000 things 10 times and ran with. The esoteric stuff is sometimes fun to learn but anyone who's ever been in a fight, whether sport or real, will know that the more basic and simple, the more a chance you have of pulling it off.
This also includes removing all the variables that you can. Instead of practicing chin na that requires you be quick and your opponent react in certain ways or be slower or less strong then you, better to practice something easy to do that can be applied whether your quick or fast, weak or strong.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Not being one to hang on to useless notions, i need some evidence that FD's point makes sense..


If I can wrap a guy up and submit him at my liesure, why would I bother to learn something thet requires his co-operation and my greater speed? If you can wrap a competent fighter up and submit him "at your liesure" i would be impressed.. but, i have never stated that any technique we train requires the opponent's cooperation, it does not.. i have stated that "we" execute at speed due to the quality of training.. now, i may need to be schooled, here, but.. it is my experience that speed is a desirable quality, even in a grappling situation.. first advantage has the upper hand..
Fatherdog is actually making a pretty rational case for himself. What he has to say makes sense. Taichibobs' ego won't let him attempt to understand or accept that fatherdog could potentially be right, since that would be admitting that atleast some of the training he has done would be invalidated. Fair enough, but.. to be fair on all sides.. it seems that FD is equally obstinate in denying the possibility that others may train differently than he, and still achieve similar results.. to admit that might "invalidate" some of his arguement as well.. As for FD "making a pretty rational case for himself", i miss it.. it has been a consistency of "you're wrong because i know" and little else.. while i have given example and reason for each instance of critique.. if the notion is that i (we) don't roll with grapplers, it is a false notion, we do.. and, my Taiji is martial in nature..
and once we've established control on a lock, we can keep the opponent pinned and extend the lock slowly, and do so without being reversed This may be our fundamental difference, i refer to the whole of it including getting to the point of "control", cripe once i have "control" it's a done deal.. of course "control" to us means you have closed the lock.. my issues are in the grappling to get there.. once i'm fully in the arm-bar my troubles are greatly magnified, but getting there is the issue and close just doesn't work, here...

Now, in fairness to all, you don't know me.. we haven't crossed hands.. so i can understand caution if your experience has been with "new age Taiji".. but, to discredit someone simply because you think your particular flavor of MA is superior to another seems a little off base.. i do not intend to imply that FD's art is inferior to mine or anyone else's.. only that there may be matters beyond his experience that could change his perspectives, but as noted above, that notion is flatly rejected.. bacause, it seems, he can tell from the printed word what direct experience might contradict.. i regret that this has taken such a turn, but i am solid in the experiences i have.. and, i suppose that is the rub, to know my own experience and have others assert they somehow know it to be different.. so, we should agree to disagree and save some energy for the mats..

Be well..

[PangQuan]

Red

I deffinately agree with that. Even TMA people will agree with that.

I guess what Im getting at is this. What if you took a difficult technique, practiced it 100,000 times. Eventually, this technique would become simple to you. And then It would become more effective.

I value the basics. I study Shaolin boxing methods. Very direct, linear and simple movements. There are advanced techniques involved but for the most part what is stressed is the basics. Learn how to kick. learn how to punch. learn how to throw someone by utilizing a basic defence against a basic attack. But you cant turn your back on more advanced and or difficult techniques.

what if I were to reverse my own analogy. And I used my chopsticks on my soup. This would seem rediculous, but what if all I really wanted out of the soup was the tomatoe clumps. I could use my spoon easier to get the clumps but I would most likely get some broth too. If I used my chopsticks I would get the clumps only.

This seems stupid, but sometimes doing things the hard way will give you the results you desire. The catch with that is you have to be absolutely sure you can succeed in your attempt for with a difficult path comes higher risks.

So again this points to the fact that the basics are easier and safer to pull off. But this does not change the fact that advanced and difficult moves have a place.

[cam]

I don't understand you Taichi Bob, why do you continue to try to convince people who are clearly biased about IMA, taiji in particular, about it's benefits?

[red5angel]

I'm not completely against doing things the hard way. Even the most simple arts have some hard techniques, it's just that they focus on getting the easy techniques down.
Unfortunately in the traditional world you get a lot of people trying to convince their students that if it's hard, it's special and/or more deadly then the standard technique.

Here's the thing, in the grappling class I take from time to time, I get wrapped up really easily by people who are smaller or "weaker" then I am. The things they are doing are really simple, and unless I have a greater understanding of what it is they are doing and how to react to it, then I'm like a puppet on strings.
however, having been to a few kungfu seminars here and there, and various demonstrations, I am consistantly unimpressed by the supposed "higher" level techniques that are showcased. Most of them you'd be hard pressed to pull off no matter how many times you practiced them. The other thing is that some of those techniques are so dangerous to someone who doesn't know how to roll with them, that you can't practice them like you can the more simple stuff.

[Merryprankster]

This thread has contracted the useless.

Ok, let's clear this up.

Joint locks, chokes, etc, require isolation.

Isolation requires control.

I don't need total control, I don't need absolute control. I need enough control to provide me a window of opportunity to apply the lock, choke, whatever.

If the lock is something that must go on quickly or risk not working, you don't have control. It's that simple. If I have control over somebody, I should be able to continue working on a submission UNTIL THE CONTROL IS BROKEN. It might not be the SAME submission, but I should be able to work on one.

Speed is a relative term, and position beats speed every time. I don't need to be faster than my opponent. I just have to make him slower than me....and I do that with good positioning.


it seems that FD is equally obstinate in denying the possibility that others may train differently than he, and still achieve similar results.

The reason he is obstinate is that this statement is impossible. Training differently, in the sense of different format, different emphases, slightly different execution preferences is one thing. But training different principles and achieving similar results is impossible. It's akin to dropping a bowling ball from different hieghts or in different weights or with different grips and expecting that the ball won't go down. The principle is the same, demonstrably, repeatedly. You are either training techniques that use those principles or you aren't.

There is no other way to do it. All good movements of the joint and choke variety will follow these principles. (period :D)

By emphasizing some other thing, it goes away from good principles and heads off into the realm of.....something else.

Put simply you are both either doing the same things, with whatever minor, preferrential differences, or one of you is doing them wrong, with respect to this type of stuff.

TCB, while you are right that FD (nor I) have a basis for comparison since we don't know what you are doing, I have to say that what I am reading from you does not inspire confidence - the things you are talking about don't square with my understanding, and I've had over 10 years of solid grappling experience, all told. I am willing to grant the benefit of the doubt though. Perhaps I am misunderstanding. After all, it is the internet.


What if you took a difficult technique, practiced it 100,000 times. Eventually, this technique would become simple to you. And then It would become more effective.

Not if it's crap. A difficult technique that ignores good fighting principles is crap and works poorly regardless of how good you get at performing it.

[Merryprankster]

The things they are doing are really simple, and unless I have a greater understanding of what it is they are doing and how to react to it, then I'm like a puppet on strings.

Everything in the fight world is simple. It's just not easy.

[PangQuan]

Not if it's crap. A difficult technique that ignores good fighting principles is crap and works poorly regardless of how good you get at performing it.


My fault I should have added a couple of words to elaborate. W

What if you took a difficult, yet proven to be effective technique, yada yada yada...

[Merryprankster]

PangQuan,

That brings us to an interesting distinction:

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, you might assume the technique is good because you were taught it - and failure to pull it off might just be chalked up to "it's hard and you have to practice more."

When, in fact, it's just bad :D

[PangQuan]

MP

This is quite true. I see where your going. And that is the tricky part. One has to know what they are learning is legitimate.

This is the main reason why the basics are the safest route. It is easy to see why they are effective.

This is why I like my sifu. You say "hows that work" he says "try and hit me" then BAM he does the technique. Of course you might get a little hurt, but he will lax up right before you break. In some cases bone chips bruises and sprains may occur. But he only demonstrates on dedicated students of a couple years or more.

This is how you determine legitamacy you try and actually harm the master, the master in turn performs the technique without aid, and you feel the result. Once you feel the technique done to you, you will have a better understanding of how it works, and can more easily determine for yourself if it is something you want to add to your arsenal.

Note: the more you seriously try and hurt sifu, the more you get hurt in return.

[Merryprankster]

I prefer sparring over demonstration. I can make just about anything work if I know what's coming :D.

[red5angel]

I prefer sparring over demonstration. I can make just about anything work if I know what's coming :D.


I can make your wife work doing just about anything to make me.... ;)

[Stranger]

This forum can be so black or white at times.